Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald discusses the acadhimmic cliche of a high Islamic civilization that far surpassed the rest of the world -- a cliche that has passed into the popular consciousness:
One of the most important means of softening up the Infidels has been the rewriting, both of Islamic cultural achievements, and of Western history, so as to make grand claims about the significance of the former for the latter. This is one of the aims of the carefully-premeditated Euro-Arab Dialogue that Bat Ye'or discusses at length in Eurabia.Robin Cook, the late former Foreign Secretary, in 1998 at the Ismaili Center in London states that "It is the most wonderful reminder in the very heart of London that the roots of our culture are not just Greek or Roman in origiin, but Islmaic as well. Islamic art, science and philosophy have helped to shape who we are and how we think." He stressed "the debt our culture owes to Islam," for "Islam laid the intellectual foundations for large portions of Western civilization."
Similar remarks, equally smarmy, have been made by the current Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, or for that matter, by any number of European leaders -- and especially among those who have held positions in the E.U. bureacracy. A succession of Europeans trooped to the European-funded Library of Alexandria, where they gave speeches, one after the other, about the greatness of Islamic civilization and all that Europe owed to it. Romano Prodi, currently the front-runner to succeed Berlusconi in Italy, was particularly egregious in his comments. Ignorance? Stupidity? Indifference to history? A readiness to please the rich (Arabs) and the powerful (the Muslims within Europe, who need constantly to be placated)? Who knows? If Europeans were well-educated, or instructed by those who were well-educated and not about to let people get away with such nonsense, it would be one thing. But mass education, the 1968 debacle, which affected attitudes toward intellectual authority and merit, not only in France but elsewhere in Europe, lowered standards and helped soften up European brains for what is a propaganda war, based partly on these claims made for Islamic "culture."
It is important not to accept these dreamy claims either about the "greatness" of Islamic civilization -- which any number of people, including Bernard Lewis, formulaically allude to as if they feel they must always and everywhere make some gesture toward the wounded feelings, and self-esteem problems, of Muslims. How delicate we all allow ourselves to be, and yet how willing, at the same time, we are to treat history itself, Mnemosyne in her tatters, so roughly, without the slightest concern for her feelings, her sense of herself.
The more one studies the history of "Islamic civilization," the less impressive do its claims appear.For a few centuries the Islamic world served as a conduit (of Chinese papermaking, of Hindu numbers and algebra, of Greek philosophy rendered first into Syriac, then into Arabic, often by Christian or Jewish translators). There were some very minor achievements and a handful of figures, their names repeated over and over and over: Al-Rhazi, Averroes, Avicenna, Al-Farabi, and a dozen others -- compared to the tens of thousands of similar figures in the Western world, not to mention those in the civilizations of China, or those unknown creators of Inca or Mayan civilization.
Almost all of the famous figures in high Islamic civilization were either non-Muslims, or Persians whom, dare one say it, in thought as in poetry (Firdowsi, Hafez, Khayyam, Sa'adi), were just "less" Muslim than the always more primitive and more fervent Arab Muslims. In art, the Indo-Persian (or Mughal) miniatures are not the products of Islam; they are the products of people ignoring the strictures of Islam. Should we give credit to Soviet Communism for Mandelshtam, formed by pre-Soviet Russia, or for Sakharov, a dissenter from everything that the Soviet system stood for? Of course not. Why then give "Islam" credit for those who, in spite of Islam, or because they were never Muslims to begin with, did so much?
The "Golden Age" of Islamic civilization was in many ways parasitic on the Christian and Jewish host populations that had been conquered. These populations were more advanced, numerous, and rich than the conquering Muslim Arabs, and remained so for some time. And while those Christians and Jews remained culturally significant, and not only as translators and transmitters of the achievements of non-Muslim civilizations, eventually they were reduced in numbers, power and influence. In Muslim Spain, political upheavals drove out some of the most significant figures (as Maimonides was driven out by the Almohad-induced persecutions -- he escaped from Grenada to Fez, where he lived disguised as a Muslim, but the atmosphere of persecution in Fez led him to Cairo, where he worked as a physician for the Fatimid rulers).
In any case, whatever was "great" about Islamic civilization, despite the exaggeration, came to a close about a thousand years ago, about when Christians and Jews ceased to be an important factor, and when, within Islam, whatever freedoms an ar-Rhazi or ibn Rushd was permitted came to an end, because those mental "gates of ijtihad" were closed.
That is how the "Islamic civilization" came to an end -- never to be reborn. For Islam inhibits artistic expression and scientific inquiry. It stunts the mental growth. That, above all. For a thousand years, since that brief period (about 200 years) of what some call the "Golden Age" of Islam, there has been very little of permanent scientific or other worth to be mentioned in the same breath with what was achieved in the West. Ravenna alone contains more art treasures than the entire Muslim world produced in its entire history.
Why do we keep forgetting this? Why do we pretend that "Islamic civilization," which began in the 9th century (and Islam itself probably did not begin until the 8th), and was simply the result of the conquest of non-Muslim peoples who were not converted or killed at once, but subject as dhimmis to slow asphyxiation, was such a splendid thing? Why do many make exaggerated claims, as if they must keep constantly in mind the remarkable self-esteem problems of present-day Muslims, who must always have their own hypertrophied sense of Muslim achievements -- even those from a thousand years ago -- confirmed?
One of these is Lewis, who offers formulaic praise to high Islamic civilization and continues to compare Europe in the Dark Ages with the Islamic civilization that was the "richest, most advanced, most..." in the world. Now that statement can only be made by someone familiar not only with "Islamic" civilization (and with the fact that many of those who were responsible for important parts of that civilization were Christians and Jews), but also with rival civilizations on which judgment is implicitly being passed -- such as China and Europe. Leave aside the gigantic and ancient civilization of China. In the study of Europe, the past fifty years of historical research have overturned, ended, put paid to, the idea of "Dark Ages." Intellectual and artistic activity that was either not sufficiently recognized, or demeaned by historians in the past (some Protestant historians in Germany, England, and the United States found suspect the dominant role of Catholicism during those non-existent "Dark Ages") has been discovered, unearthed, appreciated. But Lewis and those who like his phrase about "in the year 1000 A.D. Islamic civilization was the most advanced, most assured, most...etc." appear to have ignored the revolution in the history of those "Dark Ages." See, for a short summary, Regine Pernoud's Those Terrible Middle Ages!
But if Professor Lewis really does have such a view of Islamic achievement long ago, then perhaps none of us should really worry about the islamization of Europe. After all, if that was possible once, surely we should listen to the Da'wa of Tariq Ramadan, who believes that the future of Islam lies in Europe (and possibly America, though after his visa refusal that may have to wait a bit).
Another Muslim claim that has infiltrated into Western educational systems, and into the general (uninformed) consciousness, is that Europe itself owes "so much" to Islam. This is nonsense on stilts. Islam was at war with Christendom from Islam's inception. Its only legitimate relation to Christendom was that of enemy and conqueror. Christians could be left alive, but only in an inferior position, with all of their "rights" granted by Muslim overlords, and only so long as the Christians obeyed certain onerous financial, social, and other burdens. That was it. How did "Islamic civilization" contribute? It did not contribute to the development of Western art and music. Its scientific contributions were, outside of optics and some parts of medicine, nearly invisible.
And even if we were to participate in the exaggerated claims made for things which took place a thousand years ago, one question remains:
What have you done for civilization lately?
On the civilizational resume of Islam, there is roughly a thousand-year blank.
"1000-2000 A.D. Painted Mughal miniatures, built some mosques in Constantinople, quarried the stone from tens of thousands of destroyed churches and Hindu temples for Muslim structures." Really, no serious science for the past thousand years, no music, no sculpture, no paintings save for some un-Islamic Indo-Persian miniatures, no philosophy outside the limits of an 8th-century text composed in part of pagan Arab lore, and stories from both the Hebrew and Christian texts, imperfectly recalled-- well, that just won't do. Islam just doesn't get the job as Permanent Solution for All Mankind. Sorry.
More on Accadhimmis in the US:
http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/2260
http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/2257
http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/2247
http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/michellemalkin/2005/11/02/173917.html
Hugh
This phenomenon is now at full pelt in Britain. We've had a veritable slew of TV programmes reminding us what Europe owes to Islam. Last week I briefly tuned into one to find Waldemar Januszak in raptures over an Iznik tile adorning a mosque in Turkey. I say tile, singular, because the same flowery design was used on every tile. Frankly, the stained-glass window in my local church is more impressive.
Hindus of mediveal times called muslims as "MLECHS" meaning by barbarians. Thus so called islamic civilization has contributed to humanity as destroyer, plunderers and mass murderers of innocent people. This behavior or islam is eternal Mohammad did in Arabia, his followers have spread in rest of the world.
I should perhaps add this was not any old mosque; rather a Grand Mosque - although I forget where.
Actually "Arabic Numerals" is a misnomer, they were devised by Indo-Aryans. For centuries Arabs merely acted as tranlators for Indian and Chinese sciences... Good thing that they didnt get their hands on Yoga.
Even the more reasonable apologists for the "Islamic civilization notion" admit that the cherished pioneers of civilization ran out of gas about 1450, or sometime after Ibn Khaldun.
All the names that Hugh mentioned were fairly early, I believe. The point he makes is very good, especially since the Arabs were the wreckers of the ancient culture of the Orient [I mainly refer to Middle East, since I am not knowledgeable about India, although I know that the numerals are really Indian, not Arabic, and that various works of literature, including parts of the 1001 Nights Tales, are of Indian origin. Also the tale of Barlaam and Josaphat, originally from India, etc.]
The Arabs wrecked the ancient East, cultures, languages, peoples, destroyed or submerged.
Hugh
I am glad you have posted this article.
I ahve just been watching "islam" on the Discovery History +1 channel in not so sunny right now UK.
It was the usual white washed pc nonsense.
However I went to the trouble of actually taking note of the names of these so called "experts"
they are:
John Renard
St Louis Uni
Walter B Denny
Uni of Massachusetts
Michael Sells
Haverford College
Jonathan Bloom
Boston College
It was made by Gardener Films
in association with Deviler Donaghan.
It was nauseating white washed bollocks.
I was wondering is it possible to find out who financed the production ?
Who are these so called experts, are the colleges
renowned and respected, what arab/islamic influence financial or otherwise is there at these places ?
Regards
AI
PS
We will win, because we are a free people
I always like to drag this out when this parrticular subject is broached - it's a wonderfully succinct answer to this slobbering, misguided adulation of an inferior culture:
"What Arab Civilization?"
http://www.ninevehsoft.com/fiorina.htm
Re: The West owes so much to Islam.
This statement implies a debt. This further implies that the creditor can call the debt whenever so inclined.
Swell. Just what the world needs: more Muslim entitlement.
I will link two interesting articles in conjunction with Hugh's essay. The first has been noted before but I will suggest it again in case some readers haven't seen it. It was written as a letter to Carley Fiorina, then CEO of Hewlett Packard Corporation, in response to a speech given by her on September 26, 2001. The author chronicles the contributions made by the Assyrian Christians (who were also non-Arab) that were appropriated by the Muslim Arabs and came to be popularly known as "Islamic civilization".
http://www.ninevehsoft.com/fiorina.htm
The second article was published in The Naval Institute: Proceedings by Lieutenant Colonel James G. Lacey, U.S. Army Reserve and is titled "The Impending Collapse of Arab Civilization". It's well worth reading.
http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,NI_0905_Arab-P1,00.html
The Dread Pirate Gryphon:
LOL. I see we have the same reading list.
Cheers.
Not to worry. Yoga is haram.
Sep. 19, 2004 22:47
Religious fatwa in Egypt says Islam forbids yoga
By ASSOCIATED PRESS
CAIRO, Egypt
A religious edict saps the energy out of yoga enthusiasts in Egypt, where clerics say the 5,000-year-old practice violates Islamic law.
Answering a religious question put forward, Egypt's highest theological authority called yoga an "ascetic Hindu practice that should not be used in any manner of exercise or worship."
The undated but recent edict was signed by the mufti, Ali Gomoa.
The edict, published in the pan-Arab daily newspaper Al-Hayat and obtained Sunday by the Associated Press, called the practice of yoga "an aberration" and said mimicking it is "forbidden religiously."
Yoga is a collection of spiritual techniques and practices, aimed at integrating mind, body and spirit. In recent years, classes have started at gyms and in dedicated yoga centers. Tourist trips to Red Sea mountains and beaches also are arranged around yoga classes.
The religious edict said yoga could distort Islamic beliefs, relying on a saying from Islam's founding Prophet Muhammad about how if Muslims hold on to what he has instilled they will never stray from God's book or the prophet's teaching.
To Mukesh Kumar, a yoga instructor in Egypt for three years and diplomat at the Indian Embassy in Cairo, considering yoga an aberrant faith is a stretch.
"It is neither a religion nor claims to be a substitute for any religion in the world," he said. "I am amazed (and wonder) why this kind of statement is coming."
Kumar said the Indian cultural center in Cairo introduced yoga classes in 1992, and that the center is now operating at maximum capacity - 120 registered participants. Eighty percent of them, he said, are Egyptian.
Kumar said yoga's therapeutic aspects have proved helpful to Egyptians living in Cairo, one of the world's busiest cities with a population of 18 million.
"I don't think it is haram (forbidden religiously). It is a way of life. It relieves people from stress," he said, adding that Egyptian officials and diplomats are among those enrolled in his classes. "It is a boon for humanity. We have to carry it, and spread it."
Jerusalem Post
I agree with the basic point. But I’m skeptical of the revisionist rehabilitation of the Dark Ages (roughly 500AD – 1000AD). While not pitch black they were years of stunted growth. The Middle Ages (say 1000AD to 1500AD to pick round numbers) were a very vibrant period and more so as time evolved. The claims for the Dark Ages always strike me as too paltry to amount to the rehabilitation desired by the revisionists. It strikes me as swinging from one extreme (nothing good happened before Galileo or Leonardo) to the other extreme (it was great all along.)
In any case, when one has to go back to 1000AD and compare the zenith of “Islamic civilization” with the nadir of European history, that is holding the bar extremely low. Doesn’t that say something right there? Given the common conception of the Dark Ages (regardless if it right or wrong), doesn’t it strike anyone a bizarre that we say “your best isn’t as bad as the Dark Ages?” That’s like saying John Kerry is a bit overbearing but at least he’s not Charles Manson! Even I wouldn’t be so cruel.
Over all, an excellent essay! It wasn’t because of Islam but despite Islam that anything good happened during the 850-1150AD period so often cited. But Islam eventually won out.
Has anyone ever seen an article in which Muslims acknowledge how much they owe to Judaic and Christian science and culture?
Was it Servier who said "islam is not a torch, it is an extinguisher"? .... great quote. I'll try to find it.
Hey Gary, did your good-time buddies at frontpage have anything to say that would make us believe that Bush and Condi DON'T have more influence than and handful of idiot professors? Or did they "forget" to mention the DC Dhimmis?
Campus watch is a great site, I have to admit. They definitely have their work cut out for them. Especially now that an additional 10,000 Saudis are coming to America to attend college. Of course, you know who we can thank for that, right Gary? (Hint: It's not the former president, but if you start there (like I assume you will) you will at least be warm.) Ah well, you could always claim that Kerry would've let in 100,000, or that if given a chance, Hillary will let in a million, right?
BTW Gary, speaking of short memories... did you give any thought to my recent claim: Bush is handing YOUR tax dollars to "Faith-based" Muslim "charities" to fund Dawa and Jihad"?
Hmmm? I've been waiting for your response for sooo long.
fanorollins@yahoo.com
PS... Mr. Spencer, I was up around your Alma Mater recently for a funeral in Greensboro. Beautiful country, Muslims everywhere.
Jason~ I am reading a fairly interesting book just now, by Thomas Cahill~ How the Irish Saved Civilization. It fits rather neatly into the 500AD - 1000AD period. Things weren't as dark as they appeared....
Hello kj! Get some of that anti-hysterics medication into you before you begin teaching your philosophy class.
"Islam itself probably did not begin until the 8th (century)..."
-- posted by Hugh
This is a questionable statement, unless you define "Islam" as necessarily something beyond the original violent street gang that laid Mohammed (pbuh) to rest in 632 AD.
Certainly, operations conntinued unabated during the 7th century after His (pbuh) death, what with the Wars of Compulsion, the establishment of the Caliphate, the assinations, the establishment of the Umayyad Dynasty, the invasions of Persia, Byzantium, and Abyssinia, and so much more
So, after Mohammed (pbuh) passed on to his Seventh Heaven, Islam stayed plenty busy doing what it does best during the remainder of the 7th century. There was no shortage of blood, hate, lying, stealing, pedophilia, rape, murder, mass murder, and other things Islam... so how can you say that Islam blanked out there for a hundred years or so?
Hasn't this organized crime enterprise we call Islam one of the world's great religions been a continuum from about 615 when He (pbuh) hit the streets all the way up to this day?
"PS... Mr. Spencer, I was up around your Alma Mater recently for a funeral in Greensboro. Beautiful country, Muslims everywhere."
-- posted by kj
And there has been zero outreach from NASCAR to attract Moslem fans to the race track.
PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH
It has been said that Ibrahim Hooper is pushing his eldest son Sayeed on Brian France as the Moslem token for the driver development program.
Hugh, I know that you hunger for knowledge. In case you alrady haven't, maybe you'd like to read up on the "Muslim" architecture of India.
Start at
www.atributetohinduism.com/Islamic_Onslaught.htm
I'd like to see an essay by you on this topic. It is relevant to modern life, because it will give readers a clue as to what Islam does when no one is around to counter it (namely destroy everything that can't be Islamized and re-used.)
KJ
One has to wonder about the art, architecture, science, and inventions of conquered civilizations that we will never have any way of knowing about, since it is the policy of islam to not only destroy civilizations, but destroy every vestige of their existence that cannot be immediately be physically enjoyed or turned to cash.
“Islam was not a torch, as has been claimed, but an extinguisher. Conceived in a barbarous brain for the use of a barbarous people, it was—and it remains—incapable of adapting itself to civilization. Wherever it has dominated, it has broken the impulse towards progress and checked the evolution of society.”
Andre Servier
Islam and the Psychology of the Musulman (1924)
With thanks to Chip at:
http://politicsofreligion.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_politicsofreligion_archive.html
Wow. This Chip guy at Politics and Religion Blog has all the great quotations. Check this out:
LIVING RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD (1956) - Islam: "a portable theocratic state"
FREDERIC SPIEGELBERG
From Chapter 16: Islam and Sufism
When in the 7th century Mohammed enunciated his creed, he did so to a society existing in a state of primitive consciousness; and one whose environment -- sunscorched, storm-wracked, and unproductive -- was an arduous one. The people who wandered over this land were a savage people united only by tribal alliance, and had no highly-developed system of ethics, social integration, or cultural expression. Mohammed understood them thoroughly, adapted his religion accordingly, and in the space of his lifetime united and transformed these vagrant peoples into an empire, chiefly by forcing them to accept a common loyalty not to the tribe or an individual, but to a national religious community. This was a nation in the Jewish sense of a group of people, rather than of a group of people in a specific geographical area. The transformation was unique; the only empire in history to be totally rooted in a religion. In Islam religion created an empire; in Christianity, an empire adopted a faith and called itself The Holy Roman Empire, which, as the old saw goes, was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire. Whether led by Arabs, Persians, or in later times the Turks, Islam remained essentially all three, a portable theocratic state, much of whose impetus came from the fact that it was portable.
"a portable theocratic state"
Can anyone better define Islam in four words?
http://politicsofreligion.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_politicsofreligion_archive.html
"A portable theocratic state"! I love it. This Chip guy has just made my day.
Toodles, all!
Wonderful quotations, Mentat. Thank you.
I read all the eulogies for Robin Cook at the time of his death and my mouth opened wider and wider. He was a nasty, two-faced, lying, disingenuous, untrustworthy piece of low-life and the best thing that could have happened to him did: he died.
When the Roman Empire fell into the hands of the barbarians, there was a period of upheavel. Within a short time civilization in the west began to recover. Then for a few centuries beginning with the seventh, new waves of barbarians descended on Europe. From the north came the Vikings, and from the east various tribes from the steppes. In both cases these invaders were eventually contained and then absorbed into the Christian civilization of Europe. But there was a third wave from the east and south; that of Islam which was much more formidable and constituted a continuing disruptive force to Byzantine and western European civilization. An almost permanent war, the disruption of trade and the sundering of the Mediterranean was a constant drain on the economy and retarded the full recovery of western civilization right up to the Renaissance.
So for Islamophiles to boast of the (temporary) superiority of Muslim civilization is besides the point. It is as if there is a class bully who is constantly harassing, beating and threatening a fellow student who, just recovering from a severe illness is in a weakened condition. The bully prevents his target from attending class or concentrating on his studies. Then at the end of the semester, the bully boasts of getting a higher grade than his victim.
This Chip guy has just made my day.
Hi Mentat, you do know that Chip posts here don't you?
"A portable theocratic state."
-- posted by Mentat
That profits mightily by its mis-designation as a religion.
PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH
Portable Theocratic State. I love that. Well put, indeed. I've been looking for these words for years now, and there they are.
PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH
"A portable theorcratic state masquerading as a religion glowed within the inbred mind of the Abyssinian woman. Gazing out from within her soiled burka, eyes as blank as a shark's, the Moslem Matron clutches her dog-eared copy of the Koran and feels rage at the infidels around her, intensely hating them for all their insults to Islam. She silently wishes for the day when the portable theocracy will leap from the heads of all Believers in Dar al Harb and establish the true nation, the Nation of Islam. Her faith is so intense that she is confident that the switch on the befuddled ia786's back will be flipped to the On position, and he too will be activated on the Last Day."
PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH
Why does Louis Farakhan call himself Minister instead of Imam?
And what is Malik Zulu Shabazz's military title?Is he a captain or a general or what?
Whistling Dixie:Not to worry. Yoga is haram.
That depends a lot on what is meany by 'yoga'. There are numerous types of yoga. The four basic ones are:
Hatha Yoga...assuming various positions, which can relax,and improve overall health.
Karma yoga...the yoga of selfless action.
Bhakti Yoga...the yoga of devotion and adoration (love).
Yani Yoga...the yoga of wisdom.
Of the four only Hatha yoga is suitable for muslims. Selfless actions, devotion and adoration in terms of Bhakti, and wisdom, are unknown or in short supply in Islam.
Not to insult practitoners, but it has been said that, 'Hatha Yoga alone, while having some benefits, leaves the idiot in full possession of his idiocy. That makes it perfect for muslims.
I highly recommend it.
As far as Islmic contributions to world betterment, Hughs headline says it all...What have you done for civilization lately...
OHHHHH...I forgot to include Raja Yoga, the combination of all four of the above mentioned yogas. There is no muslim anywhere capable of Raja Yoga...
Chaz...I empty my portable theocrasy every morning at 7:30 AM...
Carolyn2:
Actually, no ... I did not know that Chip posted here. Actually, Carolyn2, there is a lot I don't know ... but at least I realize it.
"The student knows nothing; the master knows that he knows nothing."
And speaking of great quotations, how about this one from Ibn Warraq's introduction to Dr. Bostom's new book, The Legacy of Jihad:
Throw this at your local, "I want to redeem the world", politically correct, Liberation Theologist, moral relativist, the end justifies the means, would be Stalin or Hitler:
"Sir Isaiah Berlin once described an ideologue as somebody who is prepared to suppress what he suspects to be true. Berlin then concluded that from that disposition to suppress the truth has flowed much of the evil of this and other centuries. The first duty of the intellectual is to tell the truth. By suppressing the truth, however honorable the motive, we are only engendering an even greater evil.
We are all beholden to Dr. Bostom for helping us to see more clearly and honestly past events that have such an important bearing on present travails. In the words of Albert Schweitzer, "Truth has no special time of its own. Its hour is now, always, and indeed then most truly when it seems most unsuitable to actual circumstances."
Ibn Warraq
p. 23, from the foreword to The Legacy of Jihad: Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslims, by Dr. Andrew G. Bostom
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1591023076/002-6434606-0773624?v=glance
"IT'S HOUR IS NOW, ALWAYS ...!"
Words to live by!
Cheers!
The "Dark Age" is largely fiction. Sure the lands that were once part of the Western Roman Empire had a bad patch, but when you look at what was happening in Byzantium at the time you realise the period was characterised by a great deal of brilliance.
In fact, one could almost say that Justinian is the greatest of all Roman emperors. And works such as Hagia Sophia are hardly the products of primitives.
Even today the aquaducts and sewage systemes constructed by Justinian still form the backbone of modern Istanbul's waterworks.
Just mention that if ya wanna irk a Turk!
JasonP, if their best was as good as our worst, then doesn't that make them our peers?
And if they are peers, given that they're under direct orders from God Himself to subjugate everybody, doesn't it make sense for us to hand over control over our culture to them?
PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH
I look forward to viewing Comedy Channel after Universal Sharia has been attained. Should be a reel scream.
Look for the American Ayatollah to give Moslem-convert Dave Chapelle an expanded role on that network.
John, I’m not that impressed with technical achievement in and of itself. Apologists for the Soviet Union used to point to their achievements in science. Japan, prior to WWII, was industrial and had scientific achievements. The technical achievements of Byzantium and so-called Islamic mathematicians/scientists just aren’t enough. It is in the humanities—literature, fine art, philosophy, law, individual rights, etc.—where one sees reason indicative of a society were the dignity of the individual, the opportunity for self-fulfillment, and civility among free men are appreciated. This is what is needed for a free society on a sustained basis.
However, the Dark Ages tends to be a term used for Western Europe from 500AD to 1000AD—not Byzantium. Byzantium, by the way, maintained ancient learning in the original language. Most people know that Greek philosophers were translated into Arab and then Latin. However, we have the original Greek works because they were never lost in Byzantium. What is interesting is that the Greek dramatists were never translated into Arabic. That being so, even the greatest Arab/Islamic philosophers had no idea what Aristotle was talking about in the “Poetics.”
I’d still like to know more about the last 500 years of the first millennium in Western Europe. Hugh suggested one book and Gary suggest another. I'll have to do some more reading.
I think it was Serge Trifkovic that said it in Jihad in the West, that the year 1453 is more monumental to Europe than 1492.
It was in 1453 that Constantinople fell, and the fall of Constantinople (and the seige that led up to it) resulted in the science and philosophy of the Eastern Roman Empire fleeing to Venice, Florence and Milan.., as a matter of fact I suspect that the Renaissance itself is a consequence of Muslim pressures on the Byzantium Empire, where the best and brightest of minds gathered up scrolls and books and took their intellectual capital west.
"A portable theorcratic state masquerading as a religion glowed within the inbred mind of the Abyssinian woman. Gazing out from within her soiled burka, eyes as blank as a shark's, the Moslem Matron clutches her dog-eared copy of the Koran and feels rage at the infidels around her, intensely hating them for all their insults to Islam. She silently wishes for the day when the portable theocracy will leap from the heads of all Believers in Dar al Harb and establish the true nation, the Nation of Islam. Her faith is so intense that she is confident that the switch on the befuddled ia786's back will be flipped to the On position, and he too will be activated on the Last Day."
Posted by Chaz Martel 732
I thought I could come up to my office, read some jihad news, and breathe through my nose without thinking about it. This made me laugh so hard my little strip popped off! It was worth it.
And my vote for the best Islamic work in the
non-fiction literary category goes to:
"Satanic Verses" by Salman Rushdie
"And my vote for the best Islamic work in the
non-fiction literary category goes to: Satanic Verses by Salman Rushdie."
-- posted by learjet0450
Salman is a very talented writer, and that was a great book. He may be the best writer out there right now.
Sadly, the same cannot be said for his analysis of Islam.