While government officials bicker amongst themselves on how to appease blatant rioters, an insidious infiltration is quietly occurring right under the authorities' noses. From the Los Angeles Times:
PARIS — Employees set up clandestine prayer areas on the grounds of the Euro Disney resort.Workers for a cargo firm at Charles de Gaulle airport praise the Sept. 11 attacks.
A Brinks technician is charged with pulling off a million-dollar heist for a Moroccan terrorist group allegedly led by his brother. Female converts to Islam operate a day-care center that authorities eventually shut down because of its religious radicalism.
As France grapples with the rise of Islamic extremism abroad and at home, the line between legitimate religious expression and extremist subversion can be blurry. But a recent study by a think tank here paints a picture of rising fundamentalism in the workplace, ranging from proselytizing to pressure tactics to criminal activities.
In companies such as supermarket chains in immigrant-heavy areas, for instance, militant recruiters cause workplace tensions by imposing fundamentalist ideas on co-workers and pressuring managers to boycott certain products, the study says.
On a more sinister level, the study asserts that Islamic networks are trying to establish a presence in firms involved in sectors such as security, cargo, armored cars, courier services and transportation. Once they gain a foothold, operatives raise funds for militants via theft, embezzlement and robbery, the study alleges.
"Parallel to these sect-like risks, the spread of criminal practices has been detected in the heart of companies [with] two goals: crime using Islam as a pretext; and in addition, local financing of terrorism," concludes the study by the Center for Intelligence Research in Paris.
The report was issued before the recent riots that spread arson and violence nationwide and focused attention on France's immigrant neighborhoods, which are predominantly Muslim. Although intelligence officials detected only a few cases of extremists inciting unrest, authorities worry that the tense urban climate strengthens the hand of hard-core Islamic networks.
French anti-terrorism officials agree with some of the findings of the study of the private sector, though they say parts of the report exaggerate or simplify a complex issue. In any case, the concern is justified in a wider context, officials say: Extremism is rising in France, home to Europe's largest Muslim community, and intertwining with a foreign threat.
Recent arrests reveal that France has been targeted by an alliance teaming Abu Musab Zarqawi, leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq, with an Algerian-dominated network, said a senior French law enforcement official, who asked to remain anonymous for security reasons.
Zarqawi operatives in Lebanon taught bomb-making to accused militants from the network who were arrested here, including French converts, the official said.
That underscores a development on the home front: a "significant increase" in converts, including women, said a French intelligence official, who also asked not to be identified.
There is much more so please read it all.
The same thing (as discussed in the article), imo, is happening all over the Western world.
There are positive trends however:
1) In about 50 years, Iran's, Saudi's and Iraq's oil will start to run out. It may run out even sooner if China continues to add hundreds of thousands of vehicles per year.
2) In 50 years, one can successfully predict that not one country in the Organization of Islamic states will have anything approaching a decent economy. One can also successfully predict that the United States and China will still be economic superpowers. Thus the oil revenues will run out for the Islamic states and they will revert (pun intended), if they had oil revenues, to their previous status of poverty-stricken basket-cases. The world will then be much better able to deal with the Muslim states as they will again have no money (assuming that the US and China have not been subverted from within in the meantime).
3) The Muslim demographic weapon is only a threat if you allow large scale Muslim immigration. China will certainly not allow such immigration. The United States might do so but I do not think that, even if they do, they will allow so much that in the next 50 years the character of the U.S. will have changed before the oil runs out.
4) When the oil runs out, the sh*t will really hit the fan. Mass famines will take place in many of the Islamic countries with serious political unrest. A world war at that time is certainly a possibility. However, given that a successful war today is completely dependent on a thriving economy and sophisticated technology, any Muslim country that seeks to assert itself in a conventional war will quickly be destroyed.
Bottom line: In 50 years, I still see the U.S. and China being the dominant countries. However, the demographic weapon is so potent that if current trends continue and unless Muslim immigration is discontinued, then those who believe in Western values may tragically be recorded as the first civilization that committed suicide voluntarily by ceasing to have children.
An overlooked factor in Islamic hegemoney is the weather...Scientists have agreed that there is excellent possibility for a new ice age to envelope Northern Europe and Britain in ten to tenty years. This is do to the slowing and possible shut off of the gulf stream that keeps the whole place warm. The worse case senario is that Britain will have weather like Labrador, with a permafrost. Glaciers are predicted to move as far south as Portugal. If this actually occurs, the ME will cool off, get more rain and turn into the breadbasket of the world, on top of that , they have all that oil. This makes the M.E. and N Africa, the most desirable property on the planet. The people of N. Europe will have to move...mostly south. Since these affected countrys are well armed Mohammad better move over, sit down and shut up. The US and British govs are well aware of this weather threat, one CIA document reportedly expected nuclear wars over territory and resources...I am not predicting this calamity...scientists have done that...I hope they are wrong...
Duh_Swami:
Yeh, a new ice age is one possibility. I am waiting to see if scientists manage to get a core of 1,000,000 year old ice to compare with the 650,000 year old core that they obtained recently. A million years ago, the earth was a lot warmer than it is now; it would be very interesting to see what CO2 levels were then.
Who knows? Fifty years from now we may even be so technologically advanced that weather control becomes a possibility. If we finally get fusion power, if we get anti-gravity machines, if we have artificial intelligence on par with the average human, if we are making life forms to order (which are already tentatively doing), all bets are off. Who knows where we will go or what we will do.
sheik:
I've written off France. The rest of Europe I am not sure about. I can't see Poland committing civilizational suicide. The Serbs aren't likely to disappear to easily either. The Greeks and Italians won't go easily either. The french are "special".
American brownies
What's that all about?
And the next fifty years? More like fifteen or twenty unless DRASTIC measures are taken. Demographics, not oil.
Borg:
Demographics are only the pivotal factor if you let them be (i.e. by allowing immigration). Japan for instance does not allow any immigration. And you can bet your bottom dollar that they will be the first advanced power that has a significant robot army which will take the place of their diminished human population. Economics and technology will still play a major role as well as demographics.
Just heard Al Gore may run again for president in 08. If the ice age looms, it will be interesting how he spins the global warming he was talking about in 04.
"Just heard Al Gore may run again for president in 08..."
-- from a posting above
O God! O Montreal!
Am glad the Los Angeles Times has written this -
in contrast to Dhimmi reporting from most of the
Western Media.
There were 12 churches either burned or desecrated during the 'French Intifada.' Surely these disaffected youths, of 'no particular religious faith' i.e ROP would never ATTACK CHURCHES. Funny that,eh!
An explosion has recently hit an Orthodox chapel in Western Russia - must be angry Catholics or Jews?? No one from the Religion of Peace and Tolerance would ever do this...
On a lighter note; Rashid Ahmad self styled Amir of Cornwall [in Britain] has the backing of Prince Charles [who else] to build a Mosque in Newquay. Residents have formed the Newquay Mosque Opposition Group - NMOG. As his Royal Highness has expressed his concern over opposition suggest it is built near Highgrove instead preferably in one of Charlie's many organic gardens.
The LA report was of interest, but mostly because it showed how the French government is still in denial.
Mentat,
Yeah, France is screwed. Maybe the English and Lowlanders (Belgians, Hollanders) too. But the rest is salvagable. Eastern Europeans will fight to the death, and the Germans, we all know what they're like. They just need a good kick in the face to knock the PC out of them.
A.G. Frederick,
Of all European countries, Germany probably has been transmogrified the most by the PC Leftist sea change, one of whose raisons d'etre is to be so hyper-vigilant about the Maginot Line of yesteryear (zealously nipping in the bud only what resembles another Western Hitler) that they have become pathologically and irrationally blind to -- and institutionally incapable of fighting -- the new Fascism pullulating and coalescing now out of Islam.
Mentat,
Another fantastic thing about Japan is how hard it is to become a citizen. There are people with no former cultural or ancestral ties who do it, but only after years of living in the country with out the slightest blemish on the record and after passing a language test so that one might be among the 98% of adults who are literate. The latest census poster showed a Westerner who has become a Japanese national, interestingly enough. Japan is very aware of its population issue and at the same time trying to figure out how not to lose Japanese culture in the process of letting new people in.
As a nation built with immigration, I think America should have a lesser standard, but not nothing. I wish Europe wa smore like Japan in the above regard.
Mentat,
Choice prophet-like comments about what the future holds. The 'robot army' is a good observation. Funny thing is this weekend's "The Australian" newspaper has an article which speaks matter of factly about how in 2070 the bulk of the population in several European countries will be muslim, and the French and Dutch will be the ones having to "learn to adapt". The article is not meant as a scare-mongering or anti-islamic article, just rather as an observation of facts and logical elaboration.
Funny thing is many French dim-wits are now calling Le Pen a "prophet". If being able to see simple facts makes one a prophet, then this board is chocka block fulla prophets. Ha ha ha. Maybe someone on this board should write a book called "A Prophecy for Europe", and then get it published. Then for the next 100 years the dumbos in Europe will be chattering endlessly about the author as a "true prophet..." Ha ha ha. Their blindness is just so complete, we can but only laugh and weep at the same time.
Mentat: guess I must be lucky then to have a native Japanese girlfriend. ;)
Current demographics in NL:
Rotterdam is 51% non-Dutch. Over 20% of NL is non-Dutch.
Jups, we're in for a lot of lovely stuff here. But spreading the word is hard. Knee jerks to right/extreme right labels happen hard. The leftist side thinks discussing the islam in all open light apparently is bad and doing so they brand you rightist. Yeah, real lovely.
tokyobk: It helps being white. Harder to integrate in Japanese culture if you are sansei or yonsei (like coming back as a Brasilian Japanese to your roots) or if you are black.
Hello all,
I look at some of the comments here. It seems that you have already decided the a number of things.
1) People who believe in Islam are low life scum with poor intellengence.
2) In response to problems ...there is somewhere that they can be sent to.
3) Islam and their believers are finished given the next 20-50years when the oil goes.
Let ME tell you....do not underestimate the intellengence that exists with Islam. Regementation brings along its own sense of intellengence, there are some very impressive muslims, they will take you to the edge of all the legalities...run rings and use the rungs of the legal systems to keep things going.
Contrary to your reasoning, there is nowhere to send islamists, they will be there in the next, town, the next street , and next door and play with your children. Being your citizens ...who else will WANT to take them, they are yours.
The only thing I do agree with is that mullahs have 20-30 years to get power where ever they can get it all over the world. So WE need to concentrate on that. The price of oil will sky rocket...the mudrassas of France & Europe will flourish, the population will increase and the food & shops, the music, the hijab shops will increase, the call to prayer will be announced by loudspeaker in each city......
Mentata....there is no dealing with it ....only getting used to it.
The increasing dependence of Europeans and Americans on the immigrant population for menial work is corelated with the ascending immigrant population in these countries from the erstwhile colonies in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Therefore, dignity of labour should be understood in letter and spirit by the developed and civilized countries.
Secondly, merely Islam-bashing won't alone work. Earlier, the western countries adopted the osterich approach when Islamic fundamentalists were spreading their wings in Asian countries. Now, when the scourage of terrorism, in particular under the cover of Islam, has entered into their portals, all of a sudden they have taken another extreme posture. Obviously such an approach devoids any rational thinking. Little wonder, no good comes out of it.
Naseem~ I agree with you to an extent.
Neither 'side' is going anywhere. But Islam needs to get used to US.
Naseem wrote:.there is no dealing with it ....only getting used to it.
Just sounds like a threat.
And how will this idyllic scene of dear little Muslim children playing with our children come about when it's forbidden to be friends with the infidels? Only idyllic if we all "revert". Otherwise it's back to lessons learned at Palestinian Summer Camp.
(I love the image of really clever Muslim lawyers. That'll keep me smiling all day.)
When the persecution of the Ahmadiyas becomes even more pronounced, as "real"(i.e. Ahmadiya-hating) Muslims take matters into their own hands, it will be fascinating to see the despatches, from Pakistan, of "Naseem." Possibly, at the last moment, she will begin to get a glimmer of comprehension, and regret her defense of Islam. After all, the Ahmadiya sect is a kind of attempt to wiggle out of orthodox Islam, but at the same time to continue to call oneself a Muslim. This represents a step up the phylogenetic scale, religiously speaking -- Islam, Ahamidya "Islam," and then finally, complete apostasy, sometimes resulting in conversion to Christianity or, as Ibn Warraq, Anwar Shaikh, and Irfan Khawaja have found entirely satisfactory, for nothing at all. The motto of the United Negro College Fund-- "a mind is a terrible thing to waste" -- can be invoked in many situations.
The situation in France should be a call for massive immigration reform. The U.S. doesn't enforce the exit of those individuals who have expired passports. They don't even enforce the exit of the individuals that have been told to leave by the courts. So what ends up happening? The law obiding foreigners go back home out of respect for U.S. law and the criminal minded foreigners all get to stay. Does anyone have a solution for the western world that would let them play catchup?
I say we give the illegal laborers who have already been working in the U.S. amnesty (walmarts need their labor force), and give them social security numbers. Then anyone who isn't documented in the system gets escorted out ASAP. Anyone have any better ideas? In other words every person in a western country should be in the system otherwise there is no accountability and an accumulation of unknown enemies undermining the pillars of our society.
people power chose to vote against their new EU constitution, because regular people know of the threat by allowing Turkey into their EU fold, and losing more local controls to Brussel. it was a sober wake up call for all, especially Chirac!!! dont give up on the French people.. they stood up once to the muslim invaders before...Vivre la Internet! Freedom Rings from it!!!
parainvesta:
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD CRIMALIENS BE GIVEN AMNESTY!!! It makes no snese to reward people for engaging in criminal behavior. We must enforce all of our laws, not just the ones that people feel like obeying.
If an employer can't make a living honestly by following all of our labor, immigration and tax laws, then that employer should find a new business.
Been there done that. We had a massive amnesty program in the late 1980s and we have more illegals now than ever before. Lets not fall for this trap again.
GFB,
You are absolutely correct. There is a saying in Scientology, which I don't follow, but the statement is applicable, "if you reward down stats, you get down stats."
If true, then this is more proof that there is no god, at least not a just and wise one.
Posted earlier;
I look at some of the comments here. It seems that you have already decided the a number of things.
1) People who believe in Islam are low life scum with poor intellengence.
2) In response to problems ...there is somewhere that they can be sent to.
3) Islam and their believers are finished given the next 20-50years when the oil goes.
.......................
Re 1)We just don't like being killed.
Re 2) ..as opposed to chopping thier heads off you mean?
Re 3)I don't subscribe to this, but it's logical to assume that less Money means less jihad.
When Arabs run out of oil, the west will run out of gas, and when we run out of gas we will run out of jobs, production and food.. without oil, there is no gas, without gas there is no food to put on the table.. not in these days of corporate agriculture and mass marketing.
And how is that, but what means and measure, and what is the penalty if they don't.What motivation do you have for them to get use to US? Your loving, even handed, rational approach to differences and diversity? Not that I disagree but your statement implies that you think that you have the means to enforce it.
In 20 years the Muslims will outnumber the Christians, and in the war of demographics fecundity is all, and a cohesive ideology and population is better. Muslims have both, The west has neither (thanks to the politics of division and epithets of which the 700 club and Pope are so expert, and yes they are.. the great "Culture War" launched by Pat will be the bane and undoing of the West).
The Muslims have the oil, and as a consequence our money, and as stated above when the oil runs out, the economic basis and strength of the west will disappear, say hello to starvation, revolution and a return of the agrarian dark ages.
It's all downhill from here, and the west will lack the means to impose it's will, it will have gone the way of Rome, and worse it will be wrought with upheaval from within.. thanks to the divisive Culture War and the politics of division, but all of that will be forgotten in a flash, when there is no food to put on the table, no oil to plow the fields, plant it, reap it, process and transport it, and no jobs to buy it were it produced and delivered.
When I first came in this site, I thought it was some kind of forum against the small minority within Islam who is indeed a threat to the whole world (included the islamic one).
Instead I see a bunch of far-right winged subnormals who bash an entire civilization based on the acts of a few indivuals, consider a good thing that the arab world apparently will be poorer within 50 years and talk of idiocies such as "civil war" in Europe, "Ice Age", "Robot army"... God.
And the thing that most amuse me is that surely all of you are americans who dont know a sh** about Europe and the France riots... you say the are caused because the rioters are muslim, while you have no fuc**** idea about Islam or muslims whatsoever. If you informed yourselves instead of swallowing everything the right winged parodies of media shove down your throat, you would know that actually Islam had less to do in the riots than first was expected. Why did the muslim clerics order to stop the riots? Why were mosquees attacked? And what about the non-muslims rioters? The french? They were doing the jihad, too? Poor morons... what happened in France is the same thing than happened in EEUU in the 90' with the black riots.
And then you hope to "spread the truth" and say that people who do not want to criminalize an entire civilization for the acts of a few are "cowards" who kneejerk to the jihadists... you are pathetic.
Do you really think your crazy ideas will spread out of the (thank God) reduced circle of the mentally ill people who share them?
Nariz, you are sounding very Defeatist tonight. Listening to too many of those college teachers lately?
Ispanan,
"Do you really think your crazy ideas will spread out of the (thank God) reduced circle of the mentally ill people who share them?"
More disinformation; more wishful thinking and self-delusion. We must be touching a nerve here or you wouldn't be so angry.
So we don't have any "...idea about Islam or muslims whatsoever." Interesting, because unfortunately, we do. We see how your people behave in everyday situations since they live in our communities, share our roadways, work in the cubicles and offices next door. Over and over again I have noticed a basic lack of simple considerate acts toward other people by those who are of your religion.
Things like having a realtor drive them around looking for a house for several weeks and then writing the contract with their cousin Abdullah, who got his real estate license yesterday. The realtor took the time to educate them on the market place, used his gas and time to show them houses and in the end doesn't get paid. Nice.
I've seen buyers at the settlement table who brought the single mother seller to tears because they thought they would hammer her into submission for a new AC unit when there was nothing wrong with the old one and then the wife has the nerve to give the seller a hug and tell her how much she loves the house, as if the previous 45 minutes of mental torture never happened? Who is "pathetic" here?
I knew a guy who divorced his wife, whom he married in Iran, by saying. "I divorce you,I divorce you,I divorce you," and it stuck because they weren't married in American. No messy division of property, just the wife left out in the cold with nothing. Oh, and the guy kept the three year old son, too. The mother lives in another state so she only gets to see her little boy about every six months. Another fine example of Islam being the religion of "Peace and Love".
I may never have been to France but I read an interesting article in the summer of 2004 about a girl from the projects just outside of Paris whose family was pressuring her into an arranged marriage with some old guy. She was a virtual prisoner in her own home, her mother timed her when she was coming home from work. If she got home an hour late her mother would call her a whore. When she finally decided to make a run for it and break free from her family, they tried to find her and left messages on her cell phone about how much they missed her and forgave her and would she please come home. When she didn't go home after a few weeks, the messages turned sinster and her family, especially her mother, threatened her with death. HER MOTHER THREATENED HER WITH DEATH!!!
You can talk about how we don't understand, but unfortunately for you, we've got your number. And we are telling everybody.
to Ispanan, this site must be just about right on the cult of islam...you have named called, attacked people on this site. do you have any examples of history on the this so called religon of peace? mmm
can you share with us, how this cult called islam can live peaceablly with its neighbours like India
as an example? can you say your cult is toleranet of other religions, say like in Saudia Arabia, is there a Roman Chatholic Church built there? you talk about France,, how many mosques were burnt/attacked as compared to Catholic or Jewish Temples? mmmmm....l will be interested in any examples you may have...oh you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you fool most of the people most of the time!!! we are on to!
Ispanan.... you cannot fool most of the people most of time,,especially on this site..!!!
Ispanon:
Unfortunately, you follow the tactics that liberals all too frequently use. You resort to name calling and ad hominum attacks by such descriptions of people using this site as "mentally ill" and subnormal".
This type of language is used when liberals are having difficulty making rational, coherent arguments.
I disagree with your premise that it is a small minority of muslims who are the problem. If you look at poll numbers, you will find many countries such as Jordon, Saudi Arabia etc where support for Bin Laden and 9/11 reaches close to 50%.
If you get anything at all from this site, you should realize that the problem is far greater than a amall minority of muslims. The problem arises from the very teachings and the words of the prophet Mohamed, who is inspiring these fanatics in their sex for suicide pacts.
I urge you read Robert Spenser's book PIG. Open your eyes! I too bought into the multicultural viewpoint that the terrorists have "hijacked" a peaceful religion. The Koran is loaded with violent exortations to engage in jihad against the nonbeliever and to subjugate women. You have to base your opinions on realty rather than on a worldview that you wish would exist,
To the Muslim poster above:
There is craziness expressed in certain postings -- which are and must be largely unmoderated -- and little can be done about it, but the site should be judged solely on the basis of the articles put up and the explanatory material accompanying it, as well as any postings by those officially connected to the site. That's it.
As for France, you neglect many aspects of the riots. Twelve churches and several synagogues were targets. "Allahu Akbar" was the war-cry. If some Muslim clerics tried to calm the rioters, it was apparently because they understood that the rioters were almost entirely Muslim, and that only an appeal from a Muslim authority would do any good -- their appearence hardly demonstrates the irrelevance of Islam.
There may have been a few non-Muslims who, living in the same neighborhoods as the dominant Muslims, were fearful of not joining in. And of course it is true that Islam was not always and everywhere the motivator. But the detestation of Infidels and their ways, the readiness to blame the Infidel nation-state, the crudities about "raping Brigitte" both figuratively and literally, the fact that every other kind of poor or mistreated immigrant -- Chinese, Vietnamese, Hindu, Latin American -- does not behave as the Muslims have been behaving, because the ideology that can be found everywhere in the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira, which you should take a moment or a month to read or re-read, as Infidels are now reading those canonical and immutable texts, is quite clear on the correct attitude toward Infidels and toward the Bilad al-Kufr.
And if it is the Muslims in France alone who are responsible for the nearly three weeks of rioting, what shall we say about the behavior of Muslims in other European countries, which may not have yet broken out in rioting, but death threats, and actual murders, and constant demands for changes in the Infidel laws, customs, and manners, and in the very identity of the Infidel nation-state and the role of the Infidels, their holidays, their school curricula, their moeurs, their everything, are being challenged by Muslims.
If in France it is only the Muslims, not the Buddhiss, not the Hindus, not the Confucians, not the Christians from black Africa or les antillais, who are responsible not only for the riots but for the daily vandalism, the indiscipline in the schools, the quotidian life for French people rendered more unpleasant, more expensive, more physically dangerous, and if outside of France, in countries that have tried different approaches to "Integration," nothing has worked and the same problems, uniquely again with the same Muslim population as with no other, then one is entitled to draw certain conclusions.
And those conclusions are being drawn, even where not openly stated, all over the world of the Infidels. There is no right of Muslim immigration within the Lands of the Infidels, and if it can be shown, and it would not be difficult to show, that Islam itself commands loyalty only to fellow Muslims, to the umma al-islamiyya, and never to Infidels or an Infidel nation-state, then even those Muslims who happen to have acquired citizenship (non-citizens can and should be promptly deported) can be stripped of it, if they acquired such citizenship through perjury. It should not be difficult to rewrite the nationalization laws so as to require repeated avowals of loyalty to that nation-state, and to present what is taught in Islam, and to compare what a Believer may swear to with what his own belief-system commands him to believe, and to ask him how the Infidels should be expected to believe any asseveration or oath of loyalty to that nation-state.
It will come to that. Events will force it.
"You resort to name calling and ad hominum attacks by such descriptions of people using this site as "mentally ill" and subnormal"."
As opposed to you calling all muslims terrorists?
All what you do here is show news of muslims comitting despicable acts and then generalize to all the muslim world; no matter what he does, he does it because he is muslim; if a muslim rapes a woman, its because he is muslim; if a christian rapes a woman, christianity has nothing to do with it.
You quote news of death threats, violence, discrimination against women like it could only be done by muslims? You want to talk of woman discrimination? Go to the west provinces of China and you will see how the women are treated. Know what was found out in the 90's? An old man was holding a little girl he had bought as SLAVE, and she was CHAINED. And when the police came to free her, the villagers attacked the police cars because they saw it against an attack against them, they didn't care about what happened to the girl. Practices like that seems all too frequent in the region, along with the practice of sharing women between various men.
Now if I was as stupid as you, I would generalize and say all the chines are crazy bastards who think their women are slaves. Should I also think that confucianism and the others chinese religions promote this kind of treatment against women? Or it is rather the product of ignorance, provoked by poverty and lack of education?
I could as well create a site called "redneckwatch.org", put news of every klux klux klan (which members claim to be christian, or some of them) crimes and photos of blacks being hanged and then say that the american society needs to be changed because every white american is a racist. Thats what you people do there.
About the France riots, yet again you blame them on Islam. There is no other possible cause -margination, frustration, racism, discrimination-, only Islam. And I ask you again: were the black riots in Us in the 90's caused by Islam? Is the fact that blacks commit more crimes than whites due to Islam? Are the blacks all muslim? And I ask you again, if it was caused by Islam, why did the clerics issue a fatwa to stop the violence? Why were mosquees destroyed? Were they destroyed by the same non muslims that according to you took part in the riots by fear towards the muslims? Your incoherency is hilarious.
The fact I am asked about examples of tolerance of Islam towards others religions show just how cualified you are to talk about it. To begin with, if the first muslims (VII century)conquered the middle east so easily, it was because of the help of the Jews who wanted to get rid of their christian bizantine opresors; in Spain many christians spaniards tired of the visigoth rule welcomed them as liberators; in the crusades, the oriental christians fought alongside muslims against the european crusaders. Everywhere muslims ruled they were tolerant towards jews and christians, whereas in Europe they were persecuted, robbed, tortured, exiled or killed on a regular basis. In the muslim Spain There was a jewish minority until spanish christians conquered all of Spain and throwed them out in 1492; they fled to muslim land and today, there is a conmmunity of spanish talking jews in Turkey. Of course, there were some exceptions, but given the time, muslim civilization showed the most tolerance of all.
You say Islam is a violent religion. Do you think Christianity, at the contrary, is a peaceful religion? In the bible, there are texts commanding to enslave the population of the cities who do not surrender, stone the adulterers, kill the disobedient childs and telling the wife to be submitted to his husband. So tell me how exactly its better than Islam, I really want to know. Humor me.
By the way, want to talk about Kosovo? Bosnia? Sabra and Chatila
Ispanan:
I regret that I called you a liberal and apologize to all liberals. You indicate that I call all muslims terrorists. I have never made such a statement. I have indicated that the terrorists are inspired to perform their terrorist acts from the words of the Koran and the Prophet Mohammed.
Their acts of terror are based on numerous references regarding the nonbelivers. The passages are in the Koran and most terrorists have stated that they believe in fighting the infidel. This does not mean that all muslims are terrorists. Only the terrorists are terrorists.
There are many moderate muslims, perhaps even most muslims are moderate, but there is no moderate version of islam. The Koran that you read is the same Koran that Osama bin Ladin reads. The fact that you are not a terrorist is only because you choose to ignore the passages about fighting the nonbeliever.
Going to sleep now, so I will just post some passages of the Kuran for you to comment on its violence:
"If your Lord would have desired so, all the inhabitants of the Earth, absolutely all of them, would have believed. And you want to force them to believe?”
“There is no place for coercion in religion”
"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action"
"Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause."
"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. "
"to kill one innocent human being is like killing the entire humanity; and to save one life is like saving all of humanity"
"In the Bible there are texts commanding to enslave the populations of the cities who do not surrender, stone the adulterers, kill the disobedient childs, and telling the wife to be submitted to his husband. So tell me how exactly it is better than Islam, I really want to know. Humor me."
Okay, I will. The texts you speak of occur in the Old Testament. These behaviours happened before Jesus Christ was born. He is the promised Messiah and He came to save people from their sins, (that nasty behavior you sited above.) Jesus admonished people to turn the other cheek, do good to those who spitefully misuse them, to love their neighbor as themselves. Jesus told the elders who were planning to stone Mary Magdalen for adultery that whoever had no sin could cast the first stone. Everyone dropped their rocks and went away. When Jesus asked Mary Magdalen if there were any left to condemn her, she told him no and He said then neither would He condemn her, and to go and sin no more.
Instead of condemning and killing the disobedient child, in the story of the Prodigal son, the father welcomes with open arms the son who disobeyed his father and squandered his inheritance. In other words, he did not kill him or disown him. He forgave him. Jesus said to forgive 70 x 7 times, which means, ALWAYS forgive. Jesus also talks about looking for the lost sheep, leaving the 99 believers and searching far and wide for the one lost sheep, and when He has found him, He rejoices. Again, forgiveness.
Regarding wives submitting to their husbands, the next verse also says, "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loves the church." Christ loves the church so much that he laid down his life for her.
To love your wife you cannot beat her, you cannot cast her aside every time you don't get your way, you cannot divorce her three times and then wait until she marries another to get back together with her. You cannot dishonor her by bringing another women into your house and your bed. You cannot encourage her to raise children who believe the lies that they will receive virgins in heaven if they blow themselves up and kill a bunch of other people in the name of "Allah". You cannot stone her if she commits adultery, (why would she want to do that anyway, if you're such a good, peace loving guy?) You cannot enslave her, beat her if she doesn't cook your dinner right or if she'd just like to write peoms and have them published. And likewise, you cannot kill your daughters in the name of honor if one of them is raped or even if one runs away with some guy. Go back to the story of the Prodigal son.) If you do these things, you do not love your wife.
Now I will admit to you that Christians don't always behave as they believe. We're all sinners. The difference is I would never encourage my children to go to where you gather and blow themselves and you and yours up. Suicide is a grave sin in Christianity because God is the author of our birth and death and to take it out of His hands through suicide is evil personified. It's also doubting God which He finds very offensive.
I would never seek revenge on you even if you destroyed me and mine because My Lord forbids it. (Now if you come after me and mine with a gun or a machete, I will take you out. God allows us to engage in self defense.)I wish you no harm, but if you try to steal what is mine, if you try to harm my family or take away my God given gift of Freedom, I will stop you, even if it means killing you. Just don't provoke me and we'll get along fine.
And there's really the rub. Christianity says that I must love my neighbor as myself, that I must not covet his wife or his house or his land or his stuff. To do so is a grave evil and interferes with my neighbors ability to enjoy what is his.
Islam says that if I am an "unbeliever", in other words, if I don't follow what you believe in, you as a Moslem are some how superior to me(?)that you have the right to "invite me to Islam", you have the right to force me to submit and pay your jizya tax or you can kill me and take all my stuff. And please don't tell me about what the Christians did to you and yours during the Crusades. You know that your people decided the Holy Land belonged to them and that they had a right to a)invite to convert, b)tax, c)kill, d)enslave any Christian who just happened to be on a pilgrimage to go see where Christ walked the earth. My religion has always taught that the pilgrims did this and it wasn't until you guys decided to take over that the real trouble began.
Anyway, it's your turn.
Ispanan, your religion is a cult, as it is controlled by one man's ideas on how you must live.example,
how you treat women is barbaric. you are selective in both ways you bring up the Bible and your koran.
all you life you have been brainwashed, and l make no attempt to show you the light. l believe this site is successful, as it educates non-muslims on the evil coming from your cult. Knowledge is superior and will give us the tools to stand up to this cult of death you call muslim. you chose to ignore it at your own peril.. oh btw... if you ever chose to denounce your cult of death, you will have those followers try to kill you... some religion eh...
I see the Kuran verses quoted above are still ignored. This is what I expected. And then Im the one who is selective. Bah.
"Regarding wives submitting to their husbands, the next verse also says, "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loves the church." Christ loves the church so much that he laid down his life for her. To love your wife you cannot beat her, you cannot cast her aside every time you don't get your way"
Never have I said that loving one's wife was not ordered in the Bible. I see however you realize considerable effort in not judging a passage in the Bible only by considering this passage, but by considering the greater context -which you do not do with Islam, altough I have given enough verses who contradict the idea of Islam as a violent religion. I just said the woman was ordered to be obedient to his husband, which is true, and there is no way you can get around that. And loving, in the mind of some people, doesnt mean you cant punish her if he disobeys you. Women submitted to men -that how it was not so long ago, and still today in many parts of the western world.
"you cannot divorce her three times and then wait until she marries another to get back together with her."
Muslims cant either. Not only the women can also divorce, but the man has no right to "get back together with her" if she marries another man. And by the way, the one who divorces has to pay the other a compensation.
"You cannot dishonor her by bringing another women into your house and your bed."
Poligamy is another one of the prefered topics you guys raise about Islam. Lets just say that altough polygamy is allowed, it is disappearing from the muslim world. In Marroco, less than a 2% of weddings are poligamics, and with the new restrictions contained in the Family Code, its practice will be impossible.
"You cannot encourage her to raise children who believe the lies that they will receive virgins in heaven if they blow themselves up and kill a bunch of other people in the name of "Allah". "
Thats another statement is one of the stupidest thing Ive ever heard. Do you rely think that all of the, lets say, palestinians who blown themselves up do it to receive "virgins"? What about the women who do it?
Do you not think that six decades of opression, margination, humiliation, hopelessness about the future, poverty would screw someone to the point it will blow himself up?
You cannot stone her if she commits adultery, (why would she want to do that anyway, if you're such a good, peace loving guy?) You cannot enslave her, beat her if she doesn't cook your dinner right or if she'd just like to write peoms and have them published. And likewise, you cannot kill your daughters in the name of honor if one of them is raped or even if one runs away with some guy. Go back to the story of the Prodigal son.) If you do these things, you do not love your wife.
Muslims cant either :) the honor crimes are a tradition that was present way before Islam and has nothing to do with Islam, like women genital amputation in countries like Sudan. Anyway the verses quoted above are enough of an answer. What is true however is that christians do all this as well as muslims, hindus, jews, or shintoists. But anyway, I would suggest you to say all this to all those children their parents expel and threaten with death just because of their sexual condition in America bible belt.
"Now I will admit to you that Christians don't always behave as they believe."
Why? Didnt you say yours was a religion of peace? Then wtf is going on? Let me guess, Christianity is a religion of peace, and christians who are violent are not true christians, but Islam is a religion of war, and the muslims who are not violent are not true muslims,right
"God is the author of our birth and death and to take it out of His hands through suicide is evil personified. It's also doubting God which He finds very offensive."
And a christian supporting the death penalty is not doubting that control of birth and death that God has?
"I would never seek revenge on you even if you destroyed me and mine because My Lord forbids it. (Now if you come after me and mine with a gun or a machete, I will take you out. God allows us to engage in self defense.)I wish you no harm, but if you try to steal what is mine, if you try to harm my family or take away my God given gift of Freedom, I will stop you, even if it means killing you. Just don't provoke me and we'll get along fine."
Same here. I couldn't have told it better. Leave muslims alone, and you will do fine.
"And there's really the rub. Christianity says that I must love my neighbor as myself, that I must not covet his wife or his house or his land or his stuff. To do so is a grave evil and interferes with my neighbors ability to enjoy what is his."
Big deal. Why do I care about what Christianity says if christians do exactly the contrary?
Islam says that if I am an "unbeliever" [look at the verses]
"And please don't tell me about what the Christians did to you and yours during the Crusades. You know that your people decided the Holy Land belonged to them and that they had a right to a)invite to convert, b)tax, c)kill, d)enslave any Christian who just happened to be on a pilgrimage."
I see, so because pilgrims were being killed and enslaved, the christians came and solved it by killind thousands more muslims than pilgrims had died.
You are completely clueless about the whole thing. You see, it was actually the Jews living in the holy land who invited the muslims to come and free them of their christians oppressors, that's telling you a lot. At the moment of the crusades, Jerusalen was in the power of a turkish tribe, at the moment a culturally backwards people more violent and intolerant than arab muslims. The funny thing is the arabs took the city back from them so pilgrims could come and go again. But the crusader army refused to leave and wanted to take Jerusalen altough it was secure. On their way there they had killed muslims and christians alike, looted, raped, commited canibalism, burned entire villages and cities. So dont tell me about your pilgrim crap.
"all you life you have been brainwashed, and l make no attempt to show you the light. l believe this site is successful, as it educates non-muslims on the evil coming from your cult."
Why? Why reserving so quickly your enlightment for non muslims? Please do not give up, I certainly do not want to remain in that darkness you say Im in.
Ispanan,
The Quran contains verses favorable to Zionism, that is, that agree with seeing the Holy Land as the Jews' land. How come few Muslims will agree with these Quranic verses? Do you agree with them? If the Muslims/Arabs agree with these verses, then why are they fighting Israel?
Here's a link to a compilation of some of these verses:
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2005/05/quran-agrees-with-zionism.html
Do you as a Muslim agree with these verses?
Now, you mention that the Jews were driven out of Spain. But Jews and Christians were driven out of Arabia before that. Jews [and Christians] were very much oppressed and persecuted by Muslims/Arabs, and in the land of Israel in particular. Here's a link:
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2005/11/exploiting-jews-in-jerusalem-before.html
and see other links on that site. Such as the one below that cites Karl Marx [yes, that Marx].
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2005/06/karl-marx-on-treatment-of-jewish_16.html
Isabella,
Do you remember that case in St Louis about 15 years ago, when an Arab girl, Tina Issa, was murdered by her father and MOTHER, one of the reasons being that she went on a date with a black boy?
Ispanan,
You know what's interesting about this whole discussion? It's that you are so angry. Why is that?
Maybe you don't believe in the behaviors you say you detest but you believe in a religion that offers fresh examples day in and day out that the people who subscribe to your beliefs are totally okay with murder, rape, oppressing women, heck oppressing men for that matter. So are you telling all of us here that you know no one in your religion who participates in these behaviors. Read Jihad Watch and you'll see examples, nothing but endless examples.
Eliyahu,
I don't remember that particular incident but then I wasn't paying attention to this subject back then. But how sad. I can truthfully say that I know of none of my friends, family, business acquaintances, etc. who've ever killed their daughter because she dated someone they didn't like.
I just figured it out.
We are told constantly that Islam is a religion of peace.
But it is not a religion of love.
And there-in lies the difference between Christianity and Islam.
"Ispanan,
The Quran contains verses favorable to Zionism, If the Muslims/Arabs agree with these verses, then why are they fighting Israel?"
You said it yourself: they fight Israel, not the jews. The fact that they are allowed to live in the Holy Land doesnt mean they have the right to form a state and opress the non-jews who live there.
And if the Koran mention this, they what are you complaining about?
"Now, you mention that the Jews were driven out of Spain. But Jews and Christians were driven out of Arabia before that. Jews [and Christians] were very much oppressed and persecuted by Muslims/Arabs, and in the land of Israel in particular."
And the very article you quoted said that opression was made beyond Islamic law, or in another words, not sanctioned by Islam. Regardless, the situation of jews under Islam has been much better than Jews under Christianity besides some exceptions -of course there has been exceptions, this was the normal thing, considering the time.
"Do you remember that case in St Louis about 15 years ago, when an Arab girl, Tina Issa, was murdered by her father and MOTHER, one of the reasons being that she went on a date with a black boy?"
Big deal. Do you want me to tell you all the cases of blacks murdered by KKK christians?
"You know what's interesting about this whole discussion? It's that you are so angry.?"
Angry? oh no you are wrong, Im not angry I just despise you, or at least most of the people who post here.
"Maybe you don't believe in the behaviors you say you detest but you believe in a religion that offers fresh examples day in and day out that the people who subscribe to your beliefs are totally okay with murder, rape, oppressing women, heck oppressing men for that matter. So are you telling all of us here that you know no one in your religion who participates in these behaviors. Read Jihad Watch and you'll see examples, nothing but endless examples."
I dont know any muslim who is ok with this, do you know any muslim at all, idiot?
"I know of none of my friends, family, business acquaintances, etc. who've ever killed their daughter because she dated someone they didn't like."
No? and I guess you didnt heard about people whose christian parents threw out of home because they were homosexual? And those childs who are killed everyday in Africa because their christian parents think they are possessed by the devil?
"We are told constantly that Islam is a religion of peace. But it is not a religion of love. And there-in lies the difference between Christianity and Islam"
Yeah, christians are better than muslims. we have seen countless examples in history, beginning with the opression of pagans in chrisitan Rome, the inquisition, Sabra and Chatila, and the Holocaust.
Funny, I see my comments about christians supporting the death penalty and the genocide continue unanwered.
Ispanan,
I'm not an idiot, but you prove what we say about Islam everytime you open your mouth. You spew hate with your comical condescension, and you, what, despise me? Because I disagree with you? Ah, the religion of peace strikes again. Sorry, I think you're an ass but I don't despise you.
"I'm not an idiot, but you prove what we say about Islam everytime you open your mouth. You spew hate with your comical condescension"
As opposed to you who insult muslims saying they are ok with rape and murder. I guess you can insult them but they can. Oh let me guess, I "insult" you, but you, however, just "tell the truth"?
The only comical thing here is that my comments continue unanswered. You have no idea about Islam besides what is shoved down your throat in this site, this is why you cant hold an argument about it and cant refute the incoherencies that I point about people who criticize muslims.