Multiculturalist pandering dismissed in Australia. From AFP, with thanks to Bryce:
New South Wales state appeal court judge Michael Grove refused to reduce the sentences of the three brothers over the July 2002 rapes of two teenage girls at the family home in Sydney’s suburbs.Appeal lawyers for 27-year-old MSK, one of the brothers, argued that their client’s strict Muslim upbringing in Pakistan meant he had traditional views about women that made him a “cultural time bomb” in Australia and contributed to the rapes.
The judge said it was an inappropriate argument. “It was intended to suggest that differences might be observed in behaviour in the respective cultures of Pakistan and Australia. There was and is not the slightest basis for concluding other than that in both places, all women are entitled to respect and safety from sexual assault,” he told the court. “The expression ‘cultural time bomb’ was to say the least inappropriate and inapt - it would understandably be regarded as offensive by those who fell within the scope of its insult.”
So, if the defense's argument were valid and these islamofascists were indeed "ticking time bombs", then one supposes that indeed all muslims were. Presumably then, they should be exported.
No?
Immigration Geoff
The argument about being a "cultural time bomb" is both false, and true. It is false as an excuse; no state can allow its laws to be violated because someone has grown up, and remains hermetically sealed within, the primitive laws and customs of wherever he came from, or from whatever he derives inspiration and guidance. But it is true that all those who claim to find their inspiration and guidance (Islam provides a Total Regulation of Life, and a Complete Explanation of the Universe, all in one handy easy-to-open package) in the behavior and sayings of a man, and his companions, in 7th century Arabia, and with all that has been teased out of, woven out of, the whole cloth of the Qur'an, into the Hadith and the Sira, are -- all of them -- potential "cultural" and not only "cultural" -- time bombs.
And that goes for their children and grandchildren, and so on -- for all those who somewhere down the line, can "return to the faith" and so are, themselves, permanent time-bombs, just as that nice Mike Hawash, that supposedly completely American Intel engineer, as his boss, if-he's-guilty-I'll-eat-my-hat Mike McGeady, insisted right up to the day of Mike Hawash's guilty plea.
If you happen to be one of those people born into Islam, but realize what it is all about, and yet cannot bring yourself to openly break with it, out of some kind of filial piety, then consider this: if you don't break with it, but think you can pass on to your children your own relaxed "Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslim, you are quite wrong. For people are strange, and do strange things. And somewhere down that line of progeny, one or more of those children or grandchildren will, if they are told they are "Muslim" and must "be proud" of being Muslim, be caught in the same web of contradictions, wilful omission and ignoring of the evidence, that all thinking people born into Islam must face, and often simply allude to when talking to Infidel friends, but cannot bring themselves to fully discuss. And down that same line the child or grandchild of you, that same "Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslim, can potentially trade in that kind of Islam for something far more fervent, even fanatical -- and therefore dangerous both to himself, to the rest of his familiy, and to Infidels everywhere.
If you want your children not to be subject to such a metamorphose or temptation, or your grandchildren, then you must not merely mouth phrases and attitudes that show you are skeptical, critical even, of Islam. You have to declare yourself a non-Muslim, and take your children permanently out of the cult. Teach them the truth about Islam, and immunize them against its dangers, its way of thought, its way of brain-washing, its colossal history of error, vioence, agression, artistic suppression, and stunting of mental growth.
You don't want your children and grandchildren to have to suffer through all the contradictions, the mental and emotional contortions, the whole rigmarole. Save them, by being brave yourself. No need to continue to try to find ways to defend what, if you begin to study it, turns out to be indefensible.
Choose mental freedom, once and for all.
Islamic upbringing is a PERFECT excuse for RAPE.
Why Not !!
These young men were broughtup with traching of violence and hate towards non belivers. So whats so big about commiting rape. And that too of a NON BELIEVER and that too IN A NON-BELEIVING LAND !!!
These kids have perfect justification on their side.
They take pride in kiling non belivers.
Atleast rape is certainly a milder crime than killing ( as per our civilized west)
If this had been Pakistan rather than Australia, the rape victims would have been punished for zina.
if you don't break with it, but think you can pass on to your children your own relaxed "Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslim, you are quite wrong.
Very true. You can be a carrier with no unpleasant symptoms, then the next generation gets the full blown disease. I've seen this happen.
What does one expect? Chairman Muhammad was a rapist. The judge needs to read up on the religion of peace before he goes jumping to the wild conclusion that rape is wrong in both Australian/Islamic cultures. Rape is wrong in Australia all right, however, rape is not only condoned but promoted within Islam. Incidentally, clitoridectomy is a form if institutionalized Islamic rape.
"Appeal lawyers for 27-year-old MSK, one of the brothers, argued that their client’s strict Muslim upbringing in Pakistan meant he had traditional views about women that made him a “cultural time bomb” in Australia and contributed to the rapes."
If this is the case, a law should be passed immediately to castrate all Muslims who creep into Western countires; that will be the way to stop future rapes as its s "cultural thing".
Muslims are the curse of the 21st century. The sooner we pass laws to curb them coming over to western countries the better.
Let them all stay in their Muslim hell holes.
Australians should safegurad their country and their women. Why allow Muslims to come over and dismantle your country to appease these muslim aliens? These muslims DON'T BELONG in your land - they are ALIEN to everything we believe in our secular /Christians societies, mentally, culturally, religiously. They will never change, never become Westernized. Their ideology prohibits that. They will ALWAYS be insidious, deceiving, barbaric, seditious muslims. What they want, as entombed in their ideology ISLAM, is to tear you down piece by piece and build their Islamic sharia-governed hellhole on our lands.
Muslims should not be tolerated. They should be driven out.
Anyone who doesn't like it should go back to wherever they came from.
Let 'em rot. I hope these beasts get it "Leb style" in
prison
http://www.australian-news.com.au/ethnic_gangs.htm
5 September, 2002. Elizabeth Krantz
Australia
has long been a cohesive society based on Anglo-Christian values together with
the special values of fair-go, mateship and egalitarianism that define being
Australian. Under the past government policy of assimilation, successive waves
of immigrants were encouraged to adopt these values while not rejecting their
own cultures.
Then without any mandate from the people, multiculturalism was
imposed on us by the bleeding heart brigade in concert with the Labor Party who
used billions of dollars of taxpayers' money to buy votes from ethnic groups.
The legacy of this failed theory was highlighted last week in
the sentencing of an unrepentant Lebanese thug to 55 years jail for his
leadership of a gang of Lebanese Muslim youths who carried out a spate of pack
rapes and racial attacks on young Australian girls.
The Australian media in their usual politically correct
fashion have played down the racial aspects of this case.
But racial it is. The gangs went out of their way to identify
their victims as Australian before attacking them and subjecting them to
unspeakable degradation, in a bid to assert their racial superiority.
The victims were subjected to racial taunts such as
"Aussie pig" and "Aussie slut". During one rape a victim
was told she would be "fucked Leb
style".
It is clear these gangs reject Australian values. There
actions reflect their aim of stamping their own brutal values on Australian
society.
Government policy should require all immigrants to accept
Australian values as a condition of immigration.
Let 'em rot. I hope these beasts get it "Leb style" in prison
http://www.australian-news.com.au/ethnic_gangs.htm
5 September, 2002. Elizabeth KrantzAustralia has long been a cohesive society based on Anglo-Christian values together with the special values of fair-go, mateship and egalitarianism that define being Australian. Under the past government policy of assimilation, successive waves of immigrants were encouraged to adopt these values while not rejecting their own cultures.
Then without any mandate from the people, multiculturalism was imposed on us by the bleeding heart brigade in concert with the Labor Party who used billions of dollars of taxpayers' money to buy votes from ethnic groups.
The legacy of this failed theory was highlighted last week in the sentencing of an unrepentant Lebanese thug to 55 years jail for his leadership of a gang of Lebanese Muslim youths who carried out a spate of pack rapes and racial attacks on young Australian girls.
The Australian media in their usual politically correct fashion have played down the racial aspects of this case.
But racial it is. The gangs went out of their way to identify their victims as Australian before attacking them and subjecting them to unspeakable degradation, in a bid to assert their racial superiority.
The victims were subjected to racial taunts such as "Aussie pig" and "Aussie slut". During one rape a victim was told she would be "fucked Leb style".
It is clear these gangs reject Australian values. There actions reflect their aim of stamping their own brutal values on Australian society.
Government policy should require all immigrants to accept Australian values as a condition of immigration.
We welcome immigrants like these into our countries based on the false assumption that they and their offspring will change their attitudes within a few years. That is akin to marrying a really NICE alcoholic and planning to reform him.
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/08/rape-nothing-to-do-with-islam.html
Rape: Nothing to do with Islam?
It is true that mass rapes of "the enemy's women", in part to humiliate the enemy's men, is not unique to Islam. It has been done at times of war by the Vikings, the Mongols, the Germans and the Russians during WW2, and all the way up to the Balkans in the 1990s. That's also my point. The number of rapes committed by Muslim immigrants in Western nations are so extremely high that it is difficult to view them only as random acts of individuals. It resembles warfare. This happens in most Western European countries, as well as in other infidels countries such as India. In Bradford, England, Channel 4 pulled a documentary about Pakistani and other Muslim men sexually abusing white English girls, some as young as 11. Writer Theodore Dalrymple thinks that "thanks to their cultural inheritance, (Muslim) abuse of women is systematic rather than unsystematic as it is with the whites and blacks." In France, grotesque reports about systematic gang rapes of French or "too Western" Muslim girls keep coming in. At the same time, European jails are getting filled up with Muslims imprisoned for robberies and all kinds of violent crimes, and Muslims bomb European civilians. You can see the mainstream media are struggling to make sense of all of this. That's because they can't, or don't want to, see the obvious: This is exactly how an invading army would behave. Rape, pillage and bomb.
I disagree that this has nothing to do with Islam. Muhammad himself had forced sex (rape) with several of his slave girls/concubines. This is perfectly allowed, both in the sunna and in the Koran. If you postulate that many of the Muslims in Europe view themselves as a conquering army and that European women are simply war booty, it all makes perfect sense and is in full accordance with Islamic law.
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/07/norwegian-government-covering-up.html
The Norwegian Government - Covering Up Immigrant Rapes
In Bradford, England, Channel 4 pulled a documentary about Pakistani and other Muslim men sexually abusing white English girls, some as young as 11.
It was shown later. Very disturbing. It wasn't specifically about rape, though, more about pimping. The same men who would be up in arms, perhaps literally, at the idea of their sisters having a boyfriend, had no qualms about using kafir girls for sex and to earn them drug money.
Thank you, Fjordman, for that informative link.
Maybe these guys know they don't have a chance in you-know-where of getting to heaven and picking up their 72 virgins, so they are helping themselves to ours.
Robert et al. I truly wish that someone in all of these so bright minds amongst conservatives would come up with some other word besides multicculturalism or politically correct, to describe the nature of the problem.
Here's the reason. To blame a multicultural environment or politically correct language is an assault a slap in the face of Jews, Blacks, Hispanics, even Irish and Italian Immigrants who found refuge in America because it was multiculturalist.
As regards politically correct as an epithet, I understand what is meant, however realize that the term if negated will reinvigorate the racists and the antisemites, who are still p.o.d, because it is politically incorrect to call an African American a spade or the N word or call a Jew a kike etc.
Elizabeth Krantz is full of rationalizing self justifying BS, just like American Conservatives.
Here's why
Last I look John Howard and his government were arch conservatives, just like the government that runs the U.S. of A. from President to Senate to Congress and Supreme Court (as well as the MSM, which is corporate owned and controlled by the same folk who control the RNC and to a lesser extent the DNC).
When street level citizens pull their heads out of their arses and stop making excuses or living in denial about who is really running the show and why (clue: their own power, wealth and self aggrandizement).. the west will continue to lose, especially with this farcial scapegoating of which Krantz is guilty.
There is much proft in appeasing the Muslims and Arab, much profit, and a bird requires a right wing and left wing to fly...the problem is not right wing or left wing (except for the boobs who define themselves as such and play that game) but the type of bird that is flying...from all perspectives the bird is a vulture. so the right wing and left wing of the west is providing lift and thrust to a vulture.
"because it is politically incorrect to call an African American a spade or the N word or call a Jew a kike etc."
No, you execrable piece of mendacious filth -- it's cruel, racist, and bigoted to use patently derogatory terms, not "politically incorrect."
You suffer from the syndrome I call "...too stupid to know how stupid you are..."
Also notice the vile way Nariz worked out a way his bigoted terminology in his post, while pretending not to use it -- I won't call him a "leftist liar" or a "scum bag" or a "Islamofascist apologist" or a "marxist pinko nutjob" though others might think it of him --
Nariz,
Once again, you demonstrate how lame you are in your perceptions of the political opinions of some of the people who post here.
Multiculturalism is a specific ideology which posits the following:
1.) all cultures (except one) are equal and equally deserving of respect and preservation; and
2.) the one culture that is allowed - nay, mandated -- to be criticized, analyzed and abused is Western culture.
Criticism of this pernicious and destructive LEFT-WING ideology has nothing to do with people who are nostalgic for the use of racial slur words.
Nariz - there is nothing wrong with having many tribes - but ONE culture and ONE country. Keeping one’s culture though in your host country CAN lead to trouble (as we now see with Islam).
Multi-culturalism - as Susan points out above, is where all are "equal", a very left wing communist/socialist ideology that applies to worldviews – not only race/tribe. To apply it to a worldview is fraught with danger, and as we have seen, ends up limiting free speech (as so many in the Left of Labour want to introduce – Religious and Vilification laws cheered on by their Muslim constituents).
The initial immigration to the US and Australia was mainly European. European tribal differences are small, and hence there was little trouble is countries like the US and Australia forming a cohesive society say up to the 50's. Jewish culture also fits in with much of Christianity's doctrines (the Bible is a Jewish book).
IT WAS the left who foisted indiscriminate multiculturalism upon us. In Australia it was Gough Whitlam. He didn't tell us at the election that he intended on destroying the fabric of our society. No this Rhodes scholar and Humanist went out of his way to keep that quiet.
As for John Howard, maybe if you lived here yes, you would realise he is a typical politician. But as with most politicians he is the lessor of two evils. Furthermore he has kept internationally distasteful policies such as mandatory detention - which has not seen one boatload of illegals (aka Muslims) on our shores for many years now, despite howls from the left to abandon this front line policy limiting Muslim immigration.
The Socialist Left Wing parties from Labour to the Greens (founded by the Socialist Alliance - a front for communists) want an open door policy. Nariz - crap on all you like, the fact is that while both the "left" and "right" court the Muslims (the Left - to get reinforcements in dismantling of the Judeo Christian ethic that helped build Australia and the US; the Right to keep cheap market labour and consumer demand growing), the fact is, it is this Multi-cultural 'don't criticise' atmosphere that is destroying our society, and you along with it Nariz. This philosophy originated and was implemented by left wing parties. Get over it. The right, like John Howard, have to deal with its legacy. I know, I have had private conversations with front right wing parliamentarians who openly admit in private that Islam is a scourge. How often would that happen in private in a left wing environment, especially a political one? ANS – rarely, you would be howled down 9/10 times.
.
Meanwhile down under
SYDNEY (Reuters) - Australian authorities believe they have foiled a major terrorist attack, arresting 15 people on Tuesday during raids in the country's two biggest cities of Sydney and Melbourne.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051107/ts_nm/security_australia_dc
Oh no, not those pesky Buddhists again.
dennisw posted: But racial it is. The gangs went out of their way to identify their victims as Australian before attacking them and subjecting them to unspeakable degradation, in a bid to assert their racial superiority.
I dont think it is racial - it is religious, as muslims have a divine right to humiliate the Infidel and take any infidel woman for any wanton acts of depravity.
"Oh no, not those pesky Buddhists again."
DP111, we've been told for weeks by every civil libertarian in the country that the new ant-terror laws would target innocent Muslims. Not pesky Buddhists.
FYI, MSK and his 4 brothers cannot be named because the youngest was (only) 16 at the time of the offences.
Political Correctness is ideaologically based instead of based in truth or fact. Political correctness sole purpose is to further an agenda.
JW/DWers
Andalusia/Utopia – a desire for the ideal society.
One thing that has been bothering me is why the media- Channel 4 and the BBC in Britain, Prince Charles and some authors (now identified in short hand as the
Usual Suspects), have gone out of their way to glorify the fictitious "civilisation" of islam. The most mooted one is the Moorish rule of Andalusia, where it is confidently asserted that Jews, Christians and muslims lived peacefully together, building a society that was the envy of Europe and the world, all under benevolent Islamic rule.
It seems to me, that is what the goal is, i.e. a hankering for Utopia, even though a little research shows, that like virtually all visions of Utopia, Spain under the Moors was hell for those who had to live in it.
So it may well be a human desire for Utopia, where Christians, Jews and muslims i.e., people of different faiths, can all live in peace. In effect the allure of an ideal society.
Is this the cause for the glorification of Andalusia? I propose something a bit more sinister. I feel that the powers that be, and its organs such as the BBC, have realised that by shear demographic growth, muslims will inherit Europe. As Samir, a French muslim states
"You don't really think that we're going to stop now? Are you stupid? It will continue, non-stop. We aren't going to let up. The French won't do anything and soon, we will be in the majority here."
I propose that programmes in Europe glorifying the Arab occupation of Spain, is in reality preparing the population for the inevitable, i.e., their subjugation. They are counselling us that things wont be bad at all – just look at Andalusia.
Am I being paranoid? I hope so. But I cannot remove from my mind what Naipaul wrote - that the conquered people after conversion to islam, forgot and derided their native culture, and even identified with the invading Arabs.
In a perverse of replay of history, we (and I mean here the usual suspects as identified above) are identifying with invaders that have yet to take over Europe. They cannot see how, in a liberal democratic society, this conquest by demographic growth can be avoided. Consequently, and accepting the reality as of now, the usual suspects are thus encouraging the conquest of Europe, and at the same time beguiling the natives to meekly accept their fate, as they have nothing to fear, for it will be just as wonderful as Andalusia.
Little by little, people are beginning to understand that there is such a thing as cultural insanity, and Islam is a great example of it. America, Australia, Europe, Asia, Israel and India do not need to tolerate this kind of racial arrogance from a people that has not yet discovered toilet paper. If Islam is culturally insane, we either need to confine it to a cultural nut-house (ie: the Middle East), or give it cultural euthenasia (ie: kill them all for the murdering, pagan, childmolesting rapists they are or whom they sympathize with, or apologize for). It would be a nasty job, but the world would breathe a sigh of relief. Sure, right now I just sound like a raving lunatic, but eventually when the world is ready, I'll be ready.
argued that their client’s strict Muslim upbringing in Pakistan meant he had traditional views about women that made him a “cultural time bomb” in Australia and contributed to the rapes
But if you were to say this yourself, about Muslims, you'd be accused of being a racist or an Islamophobe. And in Victoria, they'd drag you through the court with their religious vilification law. This lawyer should be glad he's in NSW and not Victoria.
What a relief the judge wouldn't fall for this despicable excuse. Basically this would have said: "Go ahead, rape Australian women. You can't help it, due to your upbringing, which we have to respect, in our multicultural paradise, no matter how disgusting."
There was a fourth brother involved in these heinous crimes. He's serving 10 years. I don't know why he wasn't part of this appeal attempt, but I'm sure he'll mount his own appeal. This bunch has been very busy trying to whittle away at their sentences since I doubt very much they think they've done anything wrong, given their "traditional views of women". I'm sure they're not footing the bill so appeal after appeal after appeal is no sweat.
To see how disgusting this vermin is, and their father, the article "The brothers grim" is an eye-opener. It's also disgusting how the judge let these creeps get away with such behaviour in his court ...
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/the-brothers-grim/2005/07/21/1121539094247.html
re; Arrests in Australia
Oh dear, I was wrong. It was not those pesky Buddhists afterall but a cleric from the RoP.
One of those arrested in Melbourne was Abu Bakr, a Muslim cleric who made headlines in August for publicly stating his support for al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/imminent-terrorist-attack-triggered-raids/2005/11/08/1131212028240.html
Oh well, we cant be right all the time.
From the link above
Five of the men held in custody in Sydney were Australian citizens, Mr Moroney said.
"(but) I stress it's not the nature of a person's religion or the nature of their ethnicity that is the subject of investigation," he said.
Ofcourse not. Who in their right mind would ever think such a thing.
Andalusia really was a paradise on earth, as the Spaniards can tell you.
In fact, after Valencia was taken from the muslims, the infamous baby-killer El Cid was murdered by the Spanish for driving out the kind and generous Moors.
The Moors, of course, refused to retake command of the city and instead tramped back to the middle east, to the dismay of Spaniards everywhere.
Next week Ill tell you about how the evil Spartans conspired to keep the Persians from building a garden of eden in Greece.
Well put, 3rdtimelucky:
the fact is, it is this Multi-cultural 'don't criticise' atmosphere that is destroying our society... This philosophy originated and was implemented by left wing parties... The right, like John Howard, have to deal with its legacy.
I would add that the right has to deal with its legacy because it has come to dominate our society, politics and culture. And for that, we have the Left to thank.
I would have thought The Prince of Fools (Chas) would at least have a look round the Persian exhibition at the British Museum to see how a wonderful, flourishing civilisation was obliterated by Mohammedism. Excuse me, but I thought "traditional values " with regard to women meant love, respect and taking care of them old gentleman style - you know, opening doors, buying flowers, chocolate and perfume, that type of thing - not raping and assaulting them.
"So, if the defense's argument were valid and these islamofascists were indeed "ticking time bombs", then one supposes that indeed all muslims were. Presumably then, they should be exported.
No?
Immigration Geoff"
____________________________________________________
ia786 proclaims: God is Great!
So Geoff, what do you believe?
Your 'honest', 'caring' friends here at DW seem to have changed your views somewhat.
You can't seriously believe all Muslims are ticking time bombs? You're not that silly are you dear Geoffrey. As you said before, ‘lots’ of Muslims practise Islam peacefully.
Dead Infidel Walking
I await the next installement of the Politically Incorrect Guide to
1. Andalusia
2. The Battle of Thermpylae
I like it when /s tags are not necessary anymore.
ia786 makes a perfectly sensible that not all muslims are walking bombs. There is no reason whatever that the couple of million muslims in Britain should be victimised for the actions of the minority of jihadis esconced in muslim communities.
OTH, this means that the rest of society ie some 55 million people in Britain alone, should tolerate the ever increasing intrusion of security policies on their lives, and at worse, being slaughtered for uttering anything critical of islam, or blown up in the tubes or buses.
There has to come a point where the interest of the vast majority of the people must take precedence over the interests of the few.
"ia786 makes a perfectly sensible that not all muslims are walking bombs. There is no reason whatever that the couple of million muslims in Britain should be victimised for the actions of the minority of jihadis esconced in muslim communities.
OTH, this means that the rest of society ie some 55 million people in Britain alone, should tolerate the ever increasing intrusion of security policies on their lives, and at worse, being slaughtered for uttering anything critical of islam, or blown up in the tubes or buses."
DP111, that is not the case. Many (Brown, Black) Muslims have integrated. They are inseparable from British society. Plus many White English men and women have accepted Islam. This is not about 2 separate groups, the Muslims and the Brits, it doesn’t work like that.
Now Muslims (Black, white, brown) have to put up with intrusion in to their lives, and we have an equal chance of being blown to pieces in buses, trains etc. Muslims were killed in the 7/7 bombings.
Now Muslims are victims too. I know of White English people that accepted Islam, they are no threat to anyone. They practise Islam peacefully. Why the hell should they be victimised, why? They are as English as everyone in the country. Or is it just brown or black Muslims?
"There has to come a point where the interest of the vast majority of the people must take precedence over the interests of the few."
Of course. You are right.
ia786, you keep on telling us (ten thousand times) that the majority of Muslims are OK. And I think most of us agree, so I don't know why you keep on boring us with this same statement - as if that makes the 21st century Islamic nightmare any less of a nightmare.
In 2003 Q magazine did a survey, in which they found that 90% of Muslims did not support Islamist terror on British soil, this sounds rather grand and backs up your point that the majority of Muslims are regular people, nevertheless, what about the other 10%? I.e. 150,000 British Muslims? Islam has always and will always attract a hate-filled minority, and a minority from this minority will always gleefully rape, riot and bomb. It's a minority that Islam will never shake off because of the confrontational nature of the Koran.
The price of hosting the violent Muslim minority (for the sake of the reasonable majority) is too high. In Australia (and perhaps in Canada also) there are 4 or 5 times more Chinese than Muslims, yet the Muzzies cause 10 times more trouble, nay, 20 times! Muslims always blame racism, but are not the Chinese another race, culture and religion? In terms of race, the light-skinned Lebanese here are far closer to Anglo-Saxons than Mongoloid Chinese, and yet still the Muslims tell us it's all about racism!
It's crystal clear the real problem is Islam.
So in short, the price of peace must be that all Muslims should leave the West - including, alas, the peaceful majority.
"we have an equal chance of being blown to pieces in buses, trains etc. Muslims were killed in the 7/7 bombings." Again you say the same thing over and over again. The simple answer is: that is YOUR problem. OUR problem is that your community keeps on attacking us (and everybody else).
I'm sorry that innocent Muslims get killed in the crossfire, but let's face it, if there were no Muslims in Britain, there would be no crossfire.
Timbo
Exceptionally well put Sir.
IA
Please respond to our exchange on the other threads - they were getting quite interesting.
Thanks
Regards
Albion
Soon we'll have muslims protesting about the violation of the human rights of the three rapists and the disregard and disrespect for muslim values.
"So Geoff, what do you believe?"
Tough question. I don't think you'd understand the answer, though.
"Your 'honest', 'caring' friends here at DW seem to have changed your views somewhat."
No. As a matter of fact, the expression of the same viewpoint by others in my society invariabl gives me pause, rather than encouragement, as I by training must re-evaluate all hypotheses critically to decide if the majority-voting mass is correct or not. As a radical islamofascist, I can understand how you wouldn't really follow this reasoning.
The thing, of course, that is changing my viewpoint is tens of thousands of raging muslims in France, of all places. People crying "Allahu Akbar" as they destroy non-muslim businesses and churches, racists the like of which is scarcely imaginable.
The thing that is changing my viewpoint is the oppression of "kufr" in islamic nations.
The thing that is changing my viewpoint is your constant evasiveness, and that of all islamofascists in any debate when they get their facts ground down by me.
The thing changing my opinion is muslims talking to me about the "Perversions of the Jews" at social functions, for the love of this presumably-existent God, and reading "Mein Kampf" and making it a bestseller in a LIBERAL islamic nation, Turkey.
"You can't seriously believe all Muslims are ticking time bombs?...As you said before, ‘lots’ of Muslims practise Islam peacefully."
Indeed, I did say that. But there are stipulations, which I imagine you don't understand. Peace in islam means oppression for non-muslims. Nazi Germany was "at peace" while their armies raged over Europe.
So - anything to say? Go on, show me how the islamic example is one we want to follow.
That is, if the evil Masons and Lizardoids that were really responsible for 9/11 don't get you first - right, moderate?
Prophet Geoff
The problem with ia786's assertion that not all Muslims are ticking time bombs is this: we have no way of knowing which Muslims, from among the majority of harmless Muslims, are ticking time bombs or will someday radicalize into ticking time bombs.
If the majority of harmless Muslims would do something about rooting out the ticking time bombs, the problem would be significantly reduced.
When, however, the majority of harmless Muslims either
1) do absolutely nothing out of passivity
2) spend most of their public energy worrying about "backlash" against Muslims
3) have among them significant numbers who blatantly claim
a) they would not help authorities if they saw suspicious signs among their Muslim brethren
b) have ambivalent feelings of quasi-sympathy and support for the ticking time bombs
c) share in a vague nebula of hostile, anti-Western thoughts, feelings & ideas that in turn nourish and motivate the ticking time bombs --
then: what are we Infidels to do to defend ourselves from the ticking time bombs?
ia786:
Perhaps the majority of Muslims are peaceful. But this is not the same as virtue. It is simply inertia.
During the Second World War, Germany was overcome with its own madness: Nazism. While the vast majority of Germans were not Nazis, they were nevertheless complicit in not actively objecting to the injustices of that regime as the outrages became more and more apparent.
Millions of people with strong cultural ties to Germany have emigrated to the far corners of the world. In spite of these ties of culture and blood, they took up arms to oppose the Nazi regime. Some paid the ultimate price in bringing down the fascist beast. Go to Omaha Beach. You will see the names of fallen German-Americans and Jewish-Americans who together fought for the Free World.
The Free World is expecting a similar level of commitment from its new Muslim citizens. The job presently is easier for you, however. You don't have to storm up a beach into the muzzles of blazing machine guns, mowing you and your friends down. You simply have to loudly witness to truth and justice for all, loudly and actively correct your correligionists who have gone astray, cooperate fully with the elected government of the land and treat others as you would be treated. Anything less is hypocrisy.
Yes, God is great. But not everyone who shouts "Lord! Lord!" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
ia786
I'm glad that you see that the interests of the majority, at some point, have to take precedence. Though there are muslims who are quite peaceful, there is no way to know who they are. Unfortunately, they will be counted as the minority that is the cause of this rather unpleasant business going on in Europe. War is like that. The majority of casualties in wars are the innocents, just as in 9/11 and 7/7 in London - it was the innocents who were callously murdered.
I have nothing against anyone who wishes to convert to islam. That is a free choice that is granted to all in Britain. Without straying from Britain, what I find intolerable is that a large number of muslims who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour, have to keep their identity and location a secret, for fear of being murdered. Our vicar himself has told me of this, without ofcourse disclosing any details. You see what I'm getting at.
What becomes apparant here is that islam as an ideology is unable to countenance any other faith in competition with it. It reacts violently. So long as this is the case, there will be conflict that will inevitably turn violent. The vast majority of people in this case are the non-muslims, who will suffer the consequences of violence, in both physical and social terms.
ia786, I note that there has been a subtle change in the tenor of your posts. Just as you are concerned at the wellbeing of your community, we in Britain are concerned with the continuation of our way of life. There are far too many changes taking place in Britain to accomodate, what seems to me, an alien and intolerant lifestyle. I wish that this were not so. I wish that all immigrants, who afterall were not brought to Britain by force, will adapt and adopt to the way of life here. From the way the muslim community has self-segregated itself, it is the opposite of what had been hoped for. In addition to this, there are far too many muslims living in Britain who are engaged in treasonous activities ie acts of war against the realm.
Something will give soon, and I dont think it will be pleasant. I wish you well.
DP111
I agree with every word you wrote.
I can confirm your final comment of paragraph 2 from knowledge aquired at my own church.
Granny Weatherwax
This is not an isolated problem. Many ministers, particularly in the Midlands, are having to cope with the problem of assuring safety for those muslims and their families, who have become Christian. This is not a problem they had accepted to encounter in Britain. Now church funds as you know are quite small, and yet the church has to allocate funds for the found. The ministers also find that the police are unhelpful - mainly because they have been "educated" to believe that islam is like any other religion. When a minister told a police officer, that killing an apostate was legally sanctioned in islam, the police officer could not believe it.
Misinformation, both deliberate and otherwise, has allowed this situation to develop.
ia786
I detect a most welcome change in the tenor of your posts. I look forward to your reply.
Excerpted from above:
Please respond to our exchange on the other threads - they were getting quite interesting.
Thanks
Regards
Albion
Albion -- you do a disservice to this site with nearly every post you make now... This is one of the worst...
Hi Everyone,
I just ran across this website by chance and i would like to explain a big miscommunication problem that i have noticed every since i moved to the US. First of all, i would like u to know that I am a muslim myself, from egypt. But im neither ur average egyptian or muslim person.
As i surfed through the website i noticed that most of u guys are making the same mistakes that also most of the muslim or arab world does... you generalize and stereotype everything, u dont try to dig deeper into any subjetct or cross check the info u have, and u get ur info from very weak and possibly prejudiced sources.
throughout the muslim/arab world, the "i hate america" is the easiest and most successful campaign that u can ever launch. basically some politicians or religious leaders can simply confuse simple minded or overly enthusiatic muslims by putting everything that is american in one basket. so what u get is that america, american ppl, american politicians, americna government, foreign policies, american culture and american value are all the same! if george bush bombs iraq for no reason, then mickey mouse is also as evil!! i have spent the last 10 years maybe trying to explain the difference between all of these elements, some ppl get it others dont. I am not trying to offend anyone on this website and im willing to discuss any topic about islam or arabic culture as long as it will be objective and polite.
before doing so, i would like to that there is a difference between:
1. Islam as a religion with all it's teachings
2. what muslims (people) do
3. the culture/background of every group of muslims
For instance, somebody here said that the teachings of the quran and mohammed promote rape. I have no idea where he/she found that but i would like him/her to present his evidence (and not where he heard it from )
As for this particular case of rape, islam does not promote rape in any shape or form. islam stricts sexual relationships only to a husband and wife, exactly like catholic christians and judaism. there is no excuse under any circumstances for a man to rape a woman and anyone who tells u otherwise is fooling u, or (in this case) is a lawyer trying to win a case!
Thanks
Sherief
Sherief, I'm curious - if you're not an average muslim, and you're using that point as contrast to enhance your own appearance as a moderate, does that mean that the rest of islam (or muslims in Egypt) are therefore NOT moderate? Your statement again:
"i would like u to know that I am a muslim myself, from egypt. But im neither ur average egyptian or muslim person."
Can you explain?
Geoff
Albion -- you do a disservice to this site with nearly every post you make now... This is one of the worst...
Posted by: jsla at November 8, 2005 07:50 PM
Elaborate or shut up.
Albion
Geoff,
What I meant by the "not the average muslim or arab" is that I am not ur stereotypical muslim or arab...the only type that most americans see (in the media) with the camel or a gun in his hand and yelling "death to america" or "holly war".
There is alot more to isalm than this but unfortuantely the media does not see this as news material.
Geoff, i am sure you have not lived in any islamic or arabic country, but let me tell u that more than 90% of these people are moderate. Those who bomb and kill innocent people are as hated by us as they are hated by u. Just recently a group of people bombed a touristic site in egypt killing 88 people, 65 0f which are egyptians. They had the gutts to claim that this is a message to "the ZIONISTS and CRUSADERS"!!!!
What im trying to say is that u shouldnt confuse what the very few people do in the name of islam with what islam really teaches
Thanks
Sherief
But Sherief, it clearly isn't only a few. This kind of thing happens everywhere. Where, too, are the equal rights for religious minorities in Egypt and elsewhere?
Geoff
Geoff,
Actually if you look closely to the numbers you will realize it is a few. The muslim/arab population is a little more than a billion now. Try to estimate the number of terrorist groups, affiliates, supporters and individual cases all over the world (including terrosit groups who bomb and kill muslims and arabs themselves under many other reasons) and you will find that it is a very low percentage that definitely does not represent the majority.
What most fundemantalist groups are following is a one or two schools of thought that promote violence and does not recognize and accept "the other". The term "other" includes any other schools of thought in Islam, any other religions or ideas that does not conform with theirs. You will find this school of thought mostly tracing to the Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia where the most strict preachings are (which by the way does not mean that all saudis are like that, but the ruling power is and it enforces it on everybody).
The rise of the organized terrorist groups began with the oil boom in the Arabian Gulf in the 70's when labor travelled to work in the Gulf countries (which was all nomads then) to build the country and get a piece of the wealth. A large number of these workers returned to their countries with the newly acquiered fundemenatlist thoughts and tried preaching it at home. Being resisted by the majority they started forming militant organizations to fight the "secular governments" of their own countries which resulted to terrorist groups such as al qaeda in Afghanistan, Egypt, Sudan and the like and were actually backed up by the US government (in the case of Afghanistan) to drive the soviets out of Afghanistan. The 90's was the worst in egypt as there were attacks almost every week until the government cracked down (brutally!) on them.
But funding these groups seemed like an easy job as there was no limit to the money flooding in the gulf back then.
So again, the strict and violent muslims are not the majority here, and in fact they are and always have been the first to be harmed by the actions of those terrorist groups.
Thanks
Sherief
sherief posted: i am sure you have not lived in any islamic or arabic country, but let me tell u that more than 90% of these people are moderate.
Even using your figures, that makes 100 million muslims who are fanatics who will murder non-muslims for the reason that they are non-muslims. Experts such as Daniel Pipes, put the figure much higher. We cannot ignore these numbers who wish to kill all, and have shown repeatedly by doing so.
The trouble sherief is not numbers but the really abysmal stuff that is in the koran, verses and verses of it. To paraphrase Clinton, "It is the ideology stupid". (I dont mean you personally ofcourse)
Why did you leave Egypt by the way? You have taken a huge step in leaving the country of your birth and culture. It is a momentous step. With it comes the opportunity to be free of the constraints that islam imposed on you from birth. Freedom to think and express yourself without fear for your life, is the most important gift that America or the West, gives to those who come to its shores. Dont waste the opportunity.
DP111,
The rest of the 10% if they are not moderate that does not mean that they are violent. For instance, taking u urself as an example (if i may)...u dont like muslims and could also hate their gutts for whatever reasons u have, but do u go around killing those muslims u meet? im assuming (and hoping) that u dont! 100 million or what have u are affected by numerous factors, and believe me when i tell u this, but ur country's foreign policy is on the top of these factors. Islam has little to do with it by the way. And even those hiding behind islam and calling this a holly war and all that, think about what they want to do? they want to drive america out of their countries and the arab countries...the "they are fighting our values and freedom" excuse is a little bit childish for anyone to believe, dont u think?
On the other hand, with all due respect, Islam does not constraint my thoughts or freedom. I am a very proud muslim and i have been given the gift of seeing what this religion is about.
What ur talking about here is the constraints from the rulers of my country who have brought egypt and the whole arab world into a ditch hole with all their corruption and tyranny. This is what limits all arabs from having their freedom and all other rights u r born with.
I came to the states a couple of years ago to do my mba (not to escape egypt) but i kinda like it here coz the limit of freedom is alot higher than back home so i guess i will stay around for a while.
One last thing, it's very easy to misunderstand the verses of the quran if u read a couple of verses and take them out of context. Which is how all these terrorist groups validate all their actions and kill all those ppl. The proper understanding of the quran is by knowing when these specific verses were revealed, what was going on at that time and what was the specific incident that those verses were addressing. Otherwise u will end up with a word-for-word translation instead of reading what it really means. as i said this is how those terrorists interpret and convince the enthusiastic youngsters that they recruit with their thoughts (as they will not do it themselves. ever heard about osama or a terroist leader blow themselves up? if they claim this is the way to heaven then why dont they do it themselves? they dont wanna go to heaven?)
Sherief
There are Christians who once were muslims but have to live in hiding. They are in fear for their lives as they believe that Islam/quran calls for their murder. Is this true?
sherief
I quoted numbers as it was you that brought the subject up. Now it seems you are backing away from it. Never mind.
As I write this response, I can see the bodies piling up, caused by suicide bombers. From Bali to Beslan - the deliberate murder of children, from New York to London, Madrid and Delhi, the massacre of innocent continues - all motivated by islamic teachings, the roots of which are in the koran and the shining example of mohammed. The beheadings to the chant of "allahu akhbar", what depravity. Something is seriously wrong with islam. Fix it soon as the world is losing patience.
You should be ashamed of yourself that you defend the very same ideology that the crazed fanatics espouse. If my religion or any of its adherents were doing the sort of thing that muslims are doing now, and have been doing regularly for sometime, I would be out of that religion pronto. Even the slightest association with people of this ilk, no matter how tenuous, would be most distressing to my conscience.