It's a pity that only a Muslim-on-Muslim attack inside Jordan itself brought them to this. They haven't been all that concerned with attacks on non-Muslims outside Jordan. From Reuters, with thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist:
AMMAN, Jordan -- King Abdullah II called for a global fight against terrorism yesterday as Jordan acknowledged for the first time that al Qaeda in Iraq used foreign suicide bombers to attack Amman hotels, killing 57....King Abdullah called Zarqawi a growing threat to the Middle East and put the international community on notice that it must cooperate to fight terrorists.
"Terrorism is a sick and cross-border phenomenon. Therefore, eradicating it is the whole world's responsibility," he told the state-run Petra news agency. "The body parts we saw in Amman we see every day in brotherly Iraq and have also seen in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Morocco and other countries around the world."
Uh, Yer Majesty, have we seen it in...Israel? Britain? Spain? The United States?
Ah, yes, the double talk. The Jordanian King hopes we hear a universal condemnation while his own people hear “why don’t you kill the Infidels instead?” I expected the fake universal condemnation but didn’t expect to see the “don’t do it to Muslims” so soon.
Arafat made a career of being two-faced. Although I could never see the nice face, apparently Oslo-lovers imagined a transformation. Saudi Arabia tries to be two-faced and tells us we should trust they are working behind the scenes (“ignore what we say in public”.)
Lies? It's a way of life for some - as long as other believe them.
More on the irregularities in Rotterdam this weekend:
The newspaper 'de Telegraaf' published today that the incidents in Rotterdam are most definitely connected with the riots as they happened in France.
The incidents took place Saturday night. At least 10 cars totally burned out, 11 got heavily damaged by other means. At diverse houses molotov-like bombs were thrown through the windows and against the exterior of the buildings.
An eye witness is reported saying: "at least 25 people were involved, they wore skimasks and were walking through the street wearing baseball bats and knives. They also shouted Arabic texts. We got scared as hell."
Another witness reports: "My wife is afraid to go to bed. Only when they apprehend these guys will we know peace again. They were all Maroccans. They were shouting that the war had started. Beer bottles were spread throughout the entire street, which they had used for the molotov cocktails."
The police has not apprehended anyone yet.
Note: De Telegraaf *does* have a bit of a reputation as not the most trustworthiest of newspapers, but on the other hand, I wouldn't know why the inhabitants of those areas would be fabricating these things.
Uh, Yer Majesty, have we seen it in...Israel? Britain? Spain? The United States?
Robert at November 14, 2005 06:55 AM
Aren’t Israel, Britain, Spain, United States already fighting terrorism? What is the point of preaching to the converted? Further, including these countries in a message addressed to the Arabs might end up repulsing the listeners.
Mohideen:
The fact that Arabs, and Muslims, wherever they live, don't want to hear about carnage committed by Muslims in the name of Islam against non-Muslims lies at the heart of the problem. It's an attitude that 80% of the world finds repulsive.
Waterdragon,
Bravo!
I would like to call for a jihad on jihad and it's practitioners.
Bravo to waterdrago52. Equally repulsive is the fact that few Muslims speak up or even care when Jihadist blow up non-Muslims. I find this to be bigoted and intolerable position, and, in the Western sense, hypocrisy.
It's an attitude that 80% of the world finds repulsive.
waterdragon52 at November 14, 2005 10:49 AM
Dear waterdragon52, how do you know? From http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html we find that Islam is the religion of 21% of the world population. So, your claim of 80% finding the behavior of Muslims repulsive implies at least 1% of the population or about 5% of the Muslims find the on going Jihad repulse. Do you know which 5% of the Muslim population finds Jihad repulsive?
Mohideen Ibramsha writes:
"Aren’t Israel, Britain, Spain, United States already fighting terrorism? What is the point of preaching to the converted? Further, including these countries in a message addressed to the Arabs might end up repulsing the listeners."
There, in a nutshell, is why islam stinks. Absolutely no notion of a Golden Rule, its a cult
for thieves, murderers, rapists, and pirates,
who blindly emulate the pervert who made up this lunacy.
I understand why they'd be repulsed. I find the
idea of sending aid to earthquake hit areas of
Pakistan repulsive too. We should boot the vermin
to mohammadan nations, and stop letting any more in,
as well as making it uncomfortable for those who stay. The Danish model is the right one, we need to stir it up some more. Koranic pooper scoopers for
doggies, anyone?
Absolutely no notion of a Golden Rule
American at November 14, 2005 01:55 PM
What is the ‘notion of a Golden Rule?’
Mohideen:
I'd be happy to know that at least 5% of the world's Muslims are repulsed by jihad. Perhaps even more are. What I'm saying is that the vast majority of the world has no desire to be presented with the rather limited choices of conversion to Islam, paying the dhimmi tax or preparing to die, you absurd pedant.
If all you have to commend Islam is the fast rate of growth, which is based on a high birthrate amongst the world's poorest and most illiterate nations and jailhouse conversions, I'll stick to being a secular Jew who takes a bit of pride in accomplishments like that of Israel's Weitzman Institute, being recognized as the foremost life sciences research institute in the world. Pretty nice going for a country with a population of 5 million that's been under seige for 60 years and has no petroleum wealth.
The Golden Rule is not:
but rather:Applications of the Golden Rule can be found in Leviticus 19:33-34
and in Matthew 22:39Of interest is the entire verse from Matthew 22:36-40:
Where in the Koran are these concepts unequivocably stated? IA786 was unable to answer this challenge, are you up to it, Mohideen? Early today I quoted from an article here that:
I find the idea of sending aid to earthquake hit areas of Pakistan repulsive too.
American at November 14, 2005 01:55 PM
You find it repulsive just because the victims are Muslims? Look at what the Holy Quran recommends. Look at Verse 22 of Chapter 24 of the Holy Quran, quoted below:
===
Let not those among you who are endued with grace and amplitude of means resolve by oath against helping their kinsmen those in want and those who have left their homes in Allah’s cause: let them forgive and overlook: do you not wish that Allah should forgive you? For Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.
===
Those who could help those in want are advised to overlook the fault of the needy and help them in their need. What does ‘American’ say? He feels sending aid to the quake hit in Pakistan, that Pakistan which helped USA launch the ‘War on Terrorism.’ What a pity!
In contrast, consider the fault that was to be forgiven as recommended in the Holy Quran. The context is explained in Tradition numbered 829 in volume 3 of Sahih Al-Bukhari, quoted below:
===
Narrated Aisha
(the wife of the Prophet) "Whenever Allah's Apostle intended to go on a journey, he would draw lots amongst his wives and would take with him the one upon whom the lot fell. During a Ghazwa of his, he drew lots amongst us and the lot fell upon me, and I proceeded with him after Allah had decreed the use of the veil by women. I was carried in a Howdah (on the camel) and dismounted while still in it. When Allah's Apostle was through with his Ghazwa and returned home, and we approached the city of Medina, Allah's Apostle ordered us to proceed at night. When the order of setting off was given, I walked till I was past the army to answer the call of nature. After finishing I returned (to the camp) to depart (with the others) and suddenly realized that my necklace over my chest was missing. So, I returned to look for it and was delayed because of that. The people who used to carry me on the camel, came to my Howdah and put it on the back of the camel, thinking that I was in it, as, at that time, women were light in weight, and thin and lean, and did not use to eat much. So, those people did not feel the difference in the heaviness of the Howdah while lifting it, and they put it over the camel. At that time I was a young lady. They set the camel moving and proceeded on. I found my necklace after the army had gone, and came to their camp to find nobody. So, I went to the place where I used to stay, thinking that they would discover my absence and come back in my search. While in that state, I felt sleepy and slept.
Safwan bin Mu'attal As-Sulami Adh-Dhakwani was behind the army and reached my abode in the morning. When he saw a sleeping person, he came to me, and he used to see me before veiling. So, I got up when I heard him saying, 'Inna lil-lah-wa inn a ilaihi rajiun (We are for Allah, and we will return to Him).' He made his camel kneel down. He got down from his camel, and put his leg on the front legs of the camel and then I rode and sat over it. Safwan set out walking, leading the camel by the rope till we reached the army who had halted to take rest at midday. Then whoever was meant for destruction, fell into destruction, (some people accused me falsely) and the leader of the false accusers was 'Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul. After that we returned to Medina, and I became ill for one month while the people were spreading the forged statements of the false accusers. I was feeling during my ailment as if I were not receiving the usual kindness from the Prophet which I used to receive from him when I got sick. But he would come, greet and say, 'How is that (girl)?' I did not know anything of what was going on till I recovered from my ailment and went out with Um Mistah to the Manasi where we used to answer the call of nature, and we used not to go to answer the call of nature except from night to night and that was before we had lavatories near to our houses. And this habit of ours was similar to the habit of the old 'Arabs in the open country (or away from houses). So. I and Um Mistah bint Ruhm went out walking. Um Mistah stumbled because of her long dress and on that she said, 'Let Mistah be ruined.' I said, 'You are saying a bad word. Why are you abusing a man who took part in (the battle of) Badr?' She said, 'O Hanata (you there) didn't you hear what they said?' Then she told me the rumors of the false accusers.
My sickness was aggravated, and when I returned home, Allah's Apostle came to me, and after greeting he said, 'How is that (girl)?' I requested him to allow me to go to my parents. I wanted then to be sure of the news through them. Allah's Apostle allowed me, and I went to my parents and asked my mother, 'What are the people talking about?' She said, 'O my daughter! Don't worry much about this matter. By Allah, never is there a charming woman loved by her husband who has other wives, but the women would forge false news about her.' I said, 'Glorified be Allah! Are the people really taking of this matter?' That night I kept on weeping and could not sleep till morning. In the morning Allah's Apostle called Ali bin Abu Talib and Usama bin Zaid when he saw the Divine Inspiration delayed, to consult them about divorcing his wife (i.e. 'Aisha). Usama bin Zaid said what he knew of the good reputation of his wives and added, 'O Allah's Apostle! Keep you wife, for, by Allah, we know nothing about her but good.' 'Ali bin Abu Talib said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Allah has not imposed restrictions on you, and there are many women other than she, yet you may ask the woman-servant who will tell you the truth.' On that Allah's Apostle called Buraira and said, 'O Buraira. Did you ever see anything which roused your suspicions about her?'
Buraira said, 'No, by Allah Who has sent you with the Truth, I have never seen in her anything faulty except that she is a girl of immature age, who sometimes sleeps and leaves the dough for the goats to eat.' On that day Allah's Apostle ascended the pulpit and requested that somebody support him in punishing 'Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul. Allah's Apostle said, 'Who will support me to punish that person ('Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul) who has hurt me by slandering the reputation of my family? By Allah, I know nothing about my family but good, and they have accused a person about whom I know nothing except good, and he never entered my house except in my company.'
Sad bin Mu'adh got up and said, 'O Allah's Apostle! by Allah, I will relieve you from him. If that man is from the tribe of the Aus, then we will chop his head off, and if he is from our brothers, the Khazraj, then order us, and we will fulfill your order.' On that Sad bin 'Ubada, the chief of the Khazraj and before this incident, he had been a pious man, got up, motivated by his zeal for his tribe and said, 'By Allah, you have told a lie; you cannot kill him, and you will never be able to kill him.' On that Usaid bin Al-Hadir got up and said (to Sad bin 'Ubada), 'By Allah! you are a liar. By Allah, we will kill him; and you are a hypocrite, defending the hypocrites.' On this the two tribes of Aus and Khazraj got excited and were about to fight each other, while Allah's Apostle was standing on the pulpit. He got down and quieted them till they became silent and he kept quiet. On that day I kept on weeping so much so that neither did my tears stop, nor could I sleep.
In the morning my parents were with me and I had wept for two nights and a day, till I thought my liver would burst from weeping. While they were sitting with me and I was weeping, an Ansari woman asked my permission to enter, and I allowed her to come in.
She sat down and started weeping with me. While we were in this state, Allah's Apostle came and sat down and he had never sat with me since the day they forged the accusation. No revelation regarding my case came to him for a month. He recited
Tashah-hud (i.e. None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is His Apostle) and then said, 'O 'Aisha! I have been informed such-and-such about you; if you are innocent, then Allah will soon reveal your innocence, and if you have committed a sin, then repent to Allah and ask Him to forgive you, for when a person confesses his sin and asks Allah for forgiveness, Allah accepts his repentance.' When Allah's Apostle finished his speech my tears ceased completely and there remained not even a single drop of it. I requested my father to reply to Allah's Apostle on my behalf. My father said, By Allah, I do not know what to say to Allah's Apostle.' I said to my mother, 'Talk to Allah's Apostle on my
behalf.' She said, 'By Allah, I do not know what to say to Allah's Apostle.'
I was a young girl and did not have much knowledge of the Qur'an. I said. 'I know, by Allah, that you have listened to what people are saying and that has been planted in your minds and you have taken it as a truth. Now, if I told you that I am innocent and Allah knows that I am innocent, you would not believe me and if I confessed to you falsely that I am guilty, and Allah knows that I am innocent you would believe me. By Allah, I don't compare my situation with you except to the situation of Joseph's father (i.e. Jacob) who said, 'So (for me) patience is most fitting against that which you assert and it is Allah (alone) whose help can be sought.' Then I turned to the other side of my bed hoping that Allah would prove my innocence. By Allah I never thought that Allah would reveal Divine Inspiration in my case, as
I considered myself too inferior to be talked of in the Holy Qur'an. I had hoped that Allah's Apostle might have a dream in which Allah would prove my innocence. By Allah, Allah's Apostle had not got up and nobody had left the house before the Divine Inspiration came to Allah's Apostle. So, there overtook him the same state which used to overtake him, (when he used to have, on being inspired divinely). He was sweating so much so that the drops of the sweat were dropping like pearls though it was a (cold) wintry day. When that state of Allah's Apostle was over, he was smiling and the first word he said, 'Aisha! Thank Allah, for Allah has declared your innocence.' My mother told me to go to Allah's Apostle. I replied, 'By Allah I will not go to him and will not thank but Allah.' So Allah revealed: "Verily! They who spread the slander are a gang among you . . ." (24.11)
When Allah gave the declaration of my innocence, Abu Bakr, who used to provide for Mistah bin Uthatha for he was his relative, said, 'By Allah, I will never provide Mistah with anything because of what he said about 'Aisha.' But Allah later revealed:
"And let not those who are good and wealthy among you swear not to help their kinsmen, those in need and those who left their homes in Allah's cause. Let them forgive and overlook. Do you not wish that Allah should forgive you? Verily! Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (24.22) After that Abu Bakr said, 'Yes ! By Allah! I like that Allah should forgive me,' and resumed helping Mistah whom he used to help before.
Allah's Apostle also asked Zainab bint Jahsh (i.e. the Prophet's wife about me saying, 'What do you know and what did you see?' She replied, 'O Allah's Apostle! I refrain to claim hearing or seeing what I have not heard or seen. By Allah, I know nothing except goodness about 'Aisha." Aisha further added "Zainab was competing with me (in her beauty and the Prophet's love), yet Allah protected her (from being malicious), for she had piety."
===
The person to be forgiven has uttered the worst slander against the daughter of the one helping him. The Holy Quran teaches war in self defense only. The Holy Quran recommends the way to lead our lives in such a way that there is peace all around. That is why, we call Islam as a religion of peace.
Mohideen, you should read with your eyes and mind open The Golden Rule and Islam.
Conclusion, the Koran never commands a Muslim to love unequivocably the non-Muslim, to take the non-Muslim who sojourns into Islamic society as an equal. Indeed, love of the non-Mulsim Koran style is to fight the people of the book until they feel themselves subdued and eliminate with extreme prejudice all others, including people of the book, who do not believe in the prophethood of Mohammed.
Mohideen:
The Golden Rule derives from basic tenets of Judaism and Christianity: "Do unto others as you would have done upon yourself," or in plainer English, "treat others as you wish to be treated yourself" -- unless, of course, the "you" in question has very kinky tendancies or other peculiar psychiatric disorders.
Early today I quoted from an article here that:
Brotherly love is confined in Islam to Mohammedans...
Lisa at November 14, 2005 03:16 PM
Dear Lisa,
As a human being, I must confess that there are challenges that cannot be met. However, I would try to explain.
What is ‘brotherly love?’ Tradition numbered 264 in volume 3 of Sahih Al-Bukhari gives an indication:
===
Narrated Ibrahim bin Sad from his father from his grandfather
Abdur Rahman bin Auf said, "When we came to Medina as emigrants, Allah's Apostle established a bond of brotherhood between me and Sad bin Ar-Rabi'. Sad bin Ar-Rabi' said (to me), 'I am the richest among the Ansar, so I will give you half of my wealth and you may look at my two wives and whichever of the two you may choose I will divorce her, and when she has completed the prescribed period (before marriage) you may marry her.'
"Abdur-Rahman replied, "I am not in need of all that. Is there any marketplace where trade is practiced?" He replied, "The market of Qainuqa." Abdur-Rahman went to that market the following day and brought some dried buttermilk (yogurt) and butter, and then he continued going there regularly. Few days later, 'Abdur-Rahman came having traces of yellow (scent) on his body. Allah's Apostle asked him whether he had got married. He replied in the affirmative. The Prophet said, "Whom have you married?" He replied, '"A woman from the Ansar." Then the Prophet asked, "How much did you pay her?" He replied, "(I gave her) a gold piece equal in weight to a date stone (or a date stone of gold)!" The Prophet said, "Give a Walima (wedding banquet) even if with one sheep."
===
Consider the statement of Sad bin Ar-Rabi. As his brother is poor, he is offering half his wealth. As his brother is unmarried, he is offering to divorce one of his two wives so that his unmarried brother has a woman to approach for marriage. He could have divorced one of his wives without asking his unmarried brother to choose. If he did so, it is possible that Sad bin Ar-Rabi might have retained the better woman with himself and might have released the other woman. He wants to give the best to his brother. So, he asks him to look at his two wives and select. That is brotherly love demonstrated by the early Muslims. The current Muslims would do well if they could emulate the early Muslims.
Can a Muslim with two wives and a non-Muslim unmarried brother divorce one of his wives so that the non-Muslim brother could marry her? No. This is because a Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim man.
If we understand ‘brotherly love’ to be deep enough to offer any sacrifice, the kind of sacrifice offered by Sad bin Ar-Rabi is not possible between a Muslim and his non-Muslim brother. This is so, even if they were blood brothers: both being non-Muslim before one of them reverts to Islam.
Allah knows best.
"I requested my father to reply to Allah's Apostle on my behalf. My father said, By Allah, I do not know what to say to Allah's Apostle.' I said to my mother, 'Talk to Allah's Apostle on my
behalf.' She said, 'By Allah, I do not know what to say to Allah's Apostle.'"
Wonderful father, ABU BAKR!!!
Mohideen, your story brings to mind the phrase “Cosa Nostra.” I wonder why?
Abu Bakr must've been the inpsiration for Zein Isa, another loving father...
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/18461
Thank you so much, Mohidden, for when you wrote
you have conclusively demonstrated that the Allah of Islam is not God, the Creator.Inherent in that God, the Creator, created Adam and that all of mankind are the sons and daughters of Adam, is the self-evident truth that all men are created equal, to be loved equally among all men, as commanded in the scriptural passages I quoted above and also as found in other religious beliefs other than Islam. Since you believe the words of the Koran to be the literal word of your Allah valid for all time, the inequality of man based esposused in the Koran is in direct contradiction to the equality of all mankind as the sons and daughters of Adam. Allah's word directly contradicts the word of God, the Creator.
As the "Church Lady" would say:
Mohideen Ibramsha writes:
"You find it repulsive just because the victims are Muslims?"
Correct. A bunch of psychotic killers and oppressors, who would dance with glee if me and mine were to suffer. When do muslim nations ever helped out a Nonmuslim nation in a disaster? And when do the unbelievably wealthy Arab nations ever help out her muslim nations during a disaster? My money should be spent on civilization, not bass ackwards mohammadans. I'd only spend money helping
Hindus and Christians in that God forsaken country, helping them to leave.
"Look at what the Holy Quran recommends. "
Your mind numbing arrogance is unsurprising. Why on earth should I consider what your foul book of lies recommends? I'm not interested in raping a nine year old girl, or carrying off the women of a slaughtered tribe as sex slaves. Is that what you think of as Holy? It has ceased amazing me that you people follow the rantings of the deranged pervert, but I am still amazed that idiots who should know better claim islam is a religion of
peace. Just open your eyes, islam is the religion of bad news!
Correction:
the Koran never commands a Muslim to love unequivocably the non-Muslim, to take the non-Muslim who sojourns into Islamic society as an equal.
Lisa at November 14, 2005 04:04 PM
Can a law abiding American love the Taliban? Did not Bush declare such a person as a traitor? A law abiding citizen of any nation cannot love an individual who wantonly disobeys even a single law of his nation. Likewise, a Muslim cannot treat a non-Muslim as equal.
For a Muslim the law is the Holy Quran and its explanation in the authentic Traditions of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. How can a Muslim treat a Christian or a Jew as equal when they openly defy the Muslim law?
The Jews accept Prophet Moses, peace be upon him, but reject Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them. The Jews also reject Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Likewise the Christians reject Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. How can a Muslim treat either a Jew or a Christian with the same love as he does a Muslim? How can a Muslim become a traitor against his own nation, the Nation of Islam?
The Golden Rule derives from basic tenets of Judaism and Christianity
waterdragon52 at November 14, 2005 04:14 PM
The Muslims accept and follow all Prophets, peace be upon them. Muslims accept Prophet Moses, peace be upon him. Muslims accept Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them. Thus, the Muslims follow the teaching – the correct teaching – of Prophet Moses, peace be upon him, and Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them. If there are differences between the Christians and the Muslims, it is because the current Christians have neglected true Christianity; likewise the current Jews have neglected true Judaism.
Mohideen, you are your own worst enemy. Jews reject in the divinity of Jesus, and Christians reject Judaic law (as Jesus brought to Christians a new covenant), yet both Jews and Christians are commanded by God to treat each other and love each other as equals, as commanded by God as seen in the quotes from Leviticus and Matthew above. Jews and Christians In fact, Jews and Christians must also extend this love to all others, of all faiths and of no faith.
Love of God and love of neighbor as one loves oneself are the two greatest commandments. As Jesus said "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." As Christians or Jews, we are to love any individual as we love ourselves, but to hate only the sin committed by such individual.
For a Christian or a Jew to treat a Muslim with the same love as does a fellow Christian or Jew is being true to his faith. Truly, anybody who believes, as you do, that Muslims can not treat the non-Muslim equally is a proponent of inequality and hatred to all others, the very antithesis of the commandment of God, the Creator.
Mohideen!!! Where have you been!!!
OK, now we can finally get down to the truth.
Please, as professed "hate" reducer, answer these pressing questions for us in accordance with Islam:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-prager13nov13,0,5189241.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
Remember, be CAIRful as others tend to read these discussion boards. Choose your words CAIRfully!
PS - we appreciate the fact you consider Jesus a prophet and all, however, He considered Himself much more than that but I guess the Jews didn't sell Mohammed all of the available scriptures. Son of Mary is true but Son of God is what the Prophet Himself claimed.
In Mohideen's own words, to be true to the Muslim faith the Muslim can not extend the same love and brotherhood to the non-Muslim as the Muslim can to another Muslim. Mohideen, with each utterance you make, you do more to convince us that Islam is a supremacist doctrine in which the Muslim must discriminate against the non-Muslim as having of lesser (if any) human rights.
Al-ilha, the pagan moon god of the Arabs and Bedouins, is very different from what Christians and Jews believe to be a divine spirit; 'creator', or g-d....
Mohammeds Jesus is not the Jesus of the Christians:
Mohammeds Jesus is a bloodthirsty angel of revenge and will cause (in typical Mohammedan fashion) a blood-bath on the very last day....
There is also nothing "Abrahamic" - that would unite Christians, Jews and the cult of the mad "prophet"- The Arabs were pagans and desert dwelling vagabonds then as they are today. Just because Mohammed claimed he heard voices from "Jibreel" doesn't mean it is so, quite the opposite...
Mohideen, a 'teacher'-, obviously of the Islamic variety,- dismissed my repeated questions of why he would teach rape, murder, arson and armed robbery, with the usual Mohammedan phrase:
"out of context"-
Mohideen: I understand you have no problem with Jihad-terrorism, Taliban are youre 'brothers and the "Sharia" is what you want to impose on us "infidels".
I have news for you:
The counter-movement is on the way. Some of us are ready to use your concept of warfare to roast the whole Mohammedan scourge.
But Mohideen, somehow, I would still like your answers to why you follow (and teach) the perversion of a filthy 7th century desert- Arab.
Do you think you are intelligent?
Love of God and love of neighbor as one loves oneself are the two greatest commandments.
Lisa at November 14, 2005 05:39 PM
Muslims love God more than they love themselves, not as one loves oneself. If the fighter pilot loves his country as he loves himself, he would not fly; he flies the fighter aircraft simply because he loves his country more than himself.
you do more to convince us that Islam is a supremacist doctrine
Lisa at November 14, 2005 07:05 PM
In any decent society, a law abiding citizen gets a better treatment than a traitor. That is all that Islam does: it treats the one who obeys God Almighty better than the rebel. Just because someone who does not understand Islam calls Islam as a supremacist doctrine, it does not become so.
Please, as professed "hate" reducer, answer these pressing questions for us in accordance with Islam:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-prager13nov13,0,5189241.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
XRDC at November 14, 2005 05:50 PM
First and foremost, I must state that a handshake requires two hands; just one hand alone does not achieve a handshake.
The above link has raised five questions. All these questions were answered by many, but the answers were not accepted. We cannot find an answer that would make a determined rejecter to accept our answers. Having said the above, let us try.
Q5:. Why do countries governed by religious Muslims persecute other religions?
No church or synagogue is allowed in Saudi Arabia. The Taliban destroyed some of the greatest sculptures of the ancient world because they were Buddhist. Sudan's Islamic regime has murdered great numbers of Christians.
Answer 5: No church or synagogue is allowed in Saudi Arabia is a lie. It is not allowed in the open. There were baptisms conducted inside ‘Prince Sultan Air Base’ south of Riyadh. The friendly Saudi regime secretly satisfies the demands of USA and outwardly claims to implement Islam.
From an Islamic perspective, God Almighty approves Islam alone inside the Arabian Peninsula. Saudi Arabia is part of the Arabian Peninsula. So, no church or synagogue could be allowed.
The Taliban destroyed some of the greatest sculptures of the ancient world because they were Buddhist. I cannot speak for the Taliban because I have no communication from them. However, from an Islamic perspective, no open statue could be allowed. The angels do not enter a space in which there are pictures of animate objects. The prayers of a Muslim are witnessed by angels. Thus, if a Muslim has to offer prayers in a place displaying pictures of animate objects, his concentration is lost. The same applies to sculptures. What should a Muslim government do? Help their populations offer the prayers in comfort or satisfy the desire of an absent society and preserve the so called piece of art? The non-Muslims living in a Muslim land are welcome to have statues inside their buildings. Such statues do not disturb the prayer of Muslims. However, open statues are not allowed. In contrast to other religionists who pray inside their temples, churches or synagogues, the Muslims offer their prayers on time wherever they are as the whole earth – wherever it is clean – can be taken as a place of prayer. Thus, open statues do disturb the concentration of a praying Muslim.
Sudan’s Islamic regime has murdered great numbers of Christians. The media is not really free. The above claim is simply on the basis of media reports. We have no independent confirmation, and thus we do not respond.
Dear XRDC, let me have your response to the above answer to Q5 of the five questions. If my answers convince you that the Muslims are not at fault, God willing, I would try the other questions.
Mohideen Ibramsha writes:
"In any decent society, a law abiding citizen gets a better treatment than a traitor."
In a Nazi society, a Nazi is treated better than
a traitor to Nazism.
In a fascist dictatorship, a member of the dominant fascist party is treated better than
a non fascist traitor.
In an Islamic society, a mohammadan can rape
and kill Christians and Hindus with impunity
and anyone who betrays this perverted ideology is
what? A traitor to islam is loyal to humanity.
Muslims, lacking the golden rule, should be excluded from any implicit reciprocal contract
with other members of humanity.
"That is all that Islam does: it treats the one who obeys God Almighty better than the rebel."
Just because you say muslims worship God, or that the koran is from God, doesn't make it so. Satanic verses and all that.
"Just because someone who does not understand Islam calls Islam as a supremacist doctrine, it does not become so."
Who should I believe, you or my lying eyes?
Mohideen, please answer these two questions:
1. Have explosive devices been detonated inside the Grand Hyatt and Radisson hotels in Amman, Jordan, with the last seven days?
2. Did Neil Armstrong set foot on the surface of the moon in July, 1969?
In my most Columbo-like personality, Mohideen, I have just one more question:
Is the Koran (in its original Arabic) the literal word of Allah exactly word-for-word as revealed to Mohammed?
Please forgive the questions if it offends. The Iraqi's former leader (S.H) had his image all over the country, did these keep the angels away? Why do many states of the arab lands have these (displays) without objection from the followers of Islam?
Also, Islam was given to Mohammed by a angel (Gaberiel), it was forced down his throat if I recall. Is there any teachings of Mohammed speaking to God directly?
Mohammed Ibramsha tries to deflect, lies through his teeth and denies the obvious.
Why don't you answer the questions, Mohideen?
With gems like this you only prove to the world that you are a clown and a jester, no more:
"...Sudan’s Islamic regime has murdered great numbers of Christians. The media is not really free. The above claim is simply on the basis of media reports. We have no independent confirmation, and thus we do not respond..."
"9/11 was an inside-job" and things like "the 7/7 bombing in London was done by BLair so he could rally support against Muslims..."
We been there, Mohammed.
We got your number.
"I find the idea of sending aid to earthquake hit areas of Pakistan repulsive too."
Thats the difference between most Muslims and westerners.
"When do muslim nations ever helped out a Nonmuslim nation in a disaster? And when do the unbelievably wealthy Arab nations ever help out her muslim nations during a disaster? "
-From ignorant posters above.
A great example of ignorance, and there is much more more from where that came from. As much as US$5226000000, plus doctors, blankets, etc. of aid came from Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Djibouti, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Malaysia, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Yemen.
"I find the idea of sending aid to earthquake hit areas of Pakistan repulsive too."
Thats the difference between most Muslims and westerners.
"When do muslim nations ever helped out a Nonmuslim nation in a disaster? And when do the unbelievably wealthy Arab nations ever help out her muslim nations during a disaster? "
-From ignorant posters above.
A great example of ignorance, and there is much more more from where that came from. As much as US$5226000000, plus doctors, blankets, etc. of aid came from Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Djibouti, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Malaysia, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Yemen.
bobo26, should it not be bozo26 instead?
Why should I be called names? Because I have proved someone to be ignorant and a liar?
Bozo:
"...A great example of ignorance, and there is much more more from where that came from. As much as US$5226000000, plus doctors, blankets, etc. of aid came from Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Djibouti, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Malaysia, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Yemen..."
Any evidence Bozo?
Anyhow, I am soooo glad your Mohammedan brothers are so generous. Then why is Mushi complaining that the West and the US has "donor fatigue?"
Personally I believe there are a few too many zeros in that number you put up above. And from those countries you listed?
Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Djibouti, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Malaysia, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Yemen..."
Specifics please. And evidence. Not hollow-ringin' Islamic farts in the landscape...
Muslim attacks on Muslim has led a Muslim State Jordan to call for a Jihad on terrorism. Why should we express surprise on this development? Did not the west too wage a war on terrorism when terrorists struck in the west. Otherwise, the west, in particular the US Press men and women were happy to shed phoney tears in the often fabricated stories of human rights violations. When it comes to you, it is a different thing. Therefore, the western respected commentators should not have a pun when any Muslim State or a Muslim citizen raises the voice against the scourage of terrorism. It is also a high time, if we go into introspection and the US comes out with the black deeds of its scholars, commentators and journalists in Asian countries during the last two decades.
Name calling? Is this is like some kindergarten in the US? Believe me I am not offended being called Bozo, so go right ahead. You are making a mockery of yourselves. I expected something like from reading your racist comments when muslims comment.
"Personally I believe there are a few too many zeros in that number you put up above. And from those countries you listed?
Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Djibouti, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Malaysia, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Yemen..."
Specifics please. And evidence. Not hollow-ringin' Islamic farts in the landscape..." - by yet another ignorant member here.
Actually I seem to have miscalculated and left out a few countries such as Armenia, Albania, Mauritania. Please forgive me. The total therefore would be: USD727,725,000. If you have trouble reading the zeros, let me spell this out for you:
USD727,725,000:
Seven hundred and twenty-seven million, seven hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars.
Check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina and no this is not a "Wahhabi website"
bobo26
Thanks, bobo,bozo, (whatever you wannabe)
Actually, since you are not accurate with your numbers you shouldn't complain that we "call you names"- we just don't take you seriously since you are trying to pull the wool over our eyes and ears.
You have to differentiate between "pledges" and actual aid received.
Saudi Arabia, this hotbed of the Islamic "revolution," receives somewhere between 60 and 100 billion dollars more this year for the oil we are buying (Islamists believe we "are stealing it")
That money would be well spent for their Muslim brothers in Cashmere. It will help to indoctrinate and turn the Cashmiris into real Islamo-zombies for the Jihad. Isn't that the idea?
Why wait for Jiziya?
Mohideen sez:
"...In any decent society, a law abiding citizen gets a better treatment than a traitor..."
Good one!
Then you would agree that we should round up the traitors and ship them out?
After all, if we don't, then we are not a "decent" society?
Is the Koran (in its original Arabic) the literal word of Allah exactly word-for-word as revealed to Mohammed?
Lisa at November 15, 2005 12:03 AM
I do not know Arabic. God willing, I hope to learn. I am given to understand that Arabic is a phonetic language; that the Holy Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, who recited the Revelations. These recitations were recorded by the Companions, Allah be pleased with them. When the Holy Quran was assembled during the Caliphate of Caliph Abu Bukr, Allah be pleased with him, the written version of the Quraishi Companions, Allah be pleased with them, was accepted.
The Arabs do not use vowels; the Arabic grammar is said to permit the correct vowel alone depending on the context. However, for the benefit of non-Arabic reciters of the Holy Quran, some editions of the Holy Quran include vowels.
So, the Holy Quran is the exact word-for-word recording of its recitation by the Quraishi Companions, Allah be pleased with them.
Is there any teachings of Mohammed speaking to God directly?
Islofob IS-1 at November 15, 2005 12:15 AM
If ever there was a chance for a direct speech from Allah to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, it was during the ascent to the Heaven. Tradition 227 in volume 5 of Sahih Al-Bukhari describes the event. Quoting, we have:
===
Narrated Abbas bin Malik
Malik bin Sasaa said that Allah's Apostle described to them his Night Journey saying, "While I was lying in Al-Hatim or Al-Hijr, suddenly someone came to me and cut my body open from here to here." I asked Al-Jarud who was by my side, "What does he mean?" He said, "It means from his throat to his pubic area," or said, "From the top of the chest." The Prophet further said, "He then took out my heart. Then a gold tray of Belief was brought to me and my heart was washed and was filled (with Belief) and then returned to its original place. Then a white animal which was smaller than a mule and bigger than a donkey was brought to me." (On this Al-Jarud asked, "Was it the Buraq, O Abu Hamza?" I (i.e. Anas) replied in the affirmative). The Prophet said, "The animal's step (was so wide that it) reached the farthest point within the reach of the animal's sight. I was carried on it, and Gabriel set out with me till we reached the nearest heaven.
When he asked for the gate to be opened, it was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel answered,
'Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has Muhammad been called?' Gabriel replied in the affirmative. Then it was said, 'He is welcomed. What an excellent visit his is!' The gate was opened, and when I went over the first heaven, I saw Adam there. Gabriel said (to me). 'This is your father, Adam; pay him your greetings.' So I greeted him and he returned the greeting to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious son and pious Prophet.' Then Gabriel ascended with me till we reached the second heaven. Gabriel asked for the gate to be opened. It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel answered, 'Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel answered in the affirmative. Then it was said, 'He is welcomed. What an excellent visit his is!' The gate was opened.
When I went over the second heaven, there I saw Yahya (i.e. John) and 'Isa (i.e. Jesus) who were cousins of each other. Gabriel said (to me), 'These are John and Jesus; pay them your greetings.' So I greeted them and both of them returned my greetings to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.' Then Gabriel ascended with me to the third heaven and asked for its gate to be opened. It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel replied, 'Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel replied in the affirmative. Then it was said, 'He is welcomed, what an excellent visit his is!' The gate was opened, and when I went over the third heaven there I saw Joseph. Gabriel said (to me), 'This is Joseph; pay him your greetings.' So I greeted him and he returned the greeting to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.' Then Gabriel ascended with me to the fourth heaven and asked for its gate to be opened. It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel replied, 'Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel replied in the affirmative. Then it was said, 'He is welcomed, what an excellent visit his is!'
The gate was opened, and when I went over the fourth heaven, there I saw Idris. Gabriel said (to me), 'This is Idris; pay him your greetings.' So I greeted him and he returned the greeting to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.' Then
Gabriel ascended with me to the fifth heaven and asked for its gate to be opened. It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel replied, 'Gabriel.' It was asked. 'Who is accompanying you?'
Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel replied in the affirmative. Then it was said, 'He is welcomed, what an excellent visit his is!' So when I went over the fifth heaven, there I saw Harun (i.e. Aaron), Gabriel said, (to me). This is
Aaron; pay him your greetings.' I greeted him and he returned the greeting to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.' Then Gabriel ascended with me to the sixth heaven and asked for its gate to be opened. It was asked,'Who is it?' Gabriel replied, 'Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel replied in the affirmative. It was said, 'He is welcomed. What an excellent visit his is!'
When I went (over the sixth heaven), there I saw Moses. Gabriel said (to me),' This is
Moses; pay him your greeting. So I greeted him and he returned the greetings to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.' When I left him (i.e. Moses) he wept. Someone asked him, 'What makes you weep?' Moses said, 'I weep because after me there has been sent (as Prophet) a young man whose followers will enter Paradise in greater numbers than my followers.' Then Gabriel ascended with me to the seventh heaven and asked for its gate to be opened. It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel replied, 'Gabriel.' It was asked,' Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel replied in the affirmative. Then it was said, 'He is welcomed. What an excellent visit his is!'
So when I went (over the seventh heaven), there I saw Abraham. Gabriel said (to me),
'This is your father; pay your greetings to him.' So I greeted him and he returned the greetings to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious son and pious Prophet.' Then I was made to ascend to Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (i.e. the Lote Tree of the utmost boundary) Behold!
Its fruits were like the jars of Hajr (i.e. a place near Medina) and its leaves were as big as the ears of elephants. Gabriel said, 'This is the Lote Tree of the utmost boundary.' Behold! There ran four rivers; two were hidden and two were visible. I asked, 'What are these two kinds of rivers, O Gabriel?' He replied, 'As for the hidden rivers, they are two rivers in Paradise and the visible rivers are the Nile and the Euphrates.'
Then Al-Bait-ul-Ma'mur (i.e. the Sacred House) was shown to me and a container full of wine and another full of milk and a third full of honey were brought to me. I took the milk. Gabriel remarked, 'This is the Islamic religion which you and your followers are following.' Then the prayers were enjoined on me: They were fifty prayers a day. When I returned, I passed by Moses who asked (me), 'What have you been ordered to do?' I replied, 'I have been ordered to offer fifty prayers a day.' Moses said, 'Your followers cannot bear fifty prayers a day, and by Allah, I have tested people before you, and I have tried my level best with Bani Israel (in vain). Go back to your Lord and ask for reduction to lessen your followers' burden.' So I went back, and Allah reduced ten prayers for me. Then again I came to Moses, but he repeated the same as he had said before. Then again I went back to Allah and He reduced ten more prayers. When I came back to Moses he said the same, I went back to Allah and He ordered me to observe ten prayers a day. When I came back to Moses, he repeated the same advice, so I went back to Allah and was ordered to observe five prayers a day.
When I came back to Moses, he said, 'What have you been ordered?' I replied, 'I have been ordered to observe five prayers a day.' He said, 'Your followers cannot bear five prayers a day, and no doubt, I have got an experience of the people before you, and I have tried my level best with Bani Israel, so go back to your Lord and ask for reduction to lessen your follower's burden.' I said, 'I have requested so much of my Lord that I feel ashamed, but I am satisfied now and surrender to Allah's Order.' When I left, I heard a voice saying, 'I have passed My Order and have lessened the burden of My Worshipers."
===
To my understanding, Gabriel, peace be upon him, was present with Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, all the time. So, it is quite possible that Gabriel, peace be upon him, might have conveyed the messages regarding the prayers. We have no statement clearly indicating a direct speech or otherwise between Allah and Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.
Yes, there would be a direct speech on the Day of Judgment as explained in Tradition numbered 236 in volume 6 of Sahih Al-Bukhari, quoted below:
===
Narrated Abu Huraira
Some (cooked) meat was brought to Allah Apostle and the meat of a forearm was presented to him as he used to like it. He ate a morsel of it and said, "I will be the chief of all the people on the Day of Resurrection. Do you know the reason for it? Allah will gather all the human beings of early generations as well as late generations on one plain so that the announcer will be able to make them all hear his voice and the watcher will be able to see all of them. The sun will come so close to the people that they will suffer such distress and trouble as they will not be able to bear or stand. Then the people will say, 'Don't you see to what state you have reached? Won't you look for someone who can intercede for you with your Lord?' Some people will say to some others, 'Go to Adam.' So they will go to Adam and say to him, 'You are the father of mankind; Allah created you with His Own Hand, and breathed into you of His Spirit (meaning the spirit which he created for you); and ordered the angels to prostrate before you; so (please) intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are? Don't you see what condition we have reached?' Adam will say, 'Today my Lord has become angry as He has never become before, nor will ever become thereafter. He forbade me (to eat of the fruit of) the tree, but I disobeyed Him. Myself! Myself! Myself! (has more need for intercession). Go to someone else; go to Noah.' So they will go to Noah and say (to him), 'O Noah! You are the first (of Allah's Messengers) to the people of the earth, and Allah has named you a thankful slave; please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?' He will say, 'Today my Lord has become angry as He has never become nor will ever become thereafter. I had (in the world) the right to make one definitely accepted invocation, and I made it against my nation. Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Abraham.' They will go to Abraham and say, 'O Abraham! You are Allah's Apostle and His Khalil from among the people of the earth; so please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?' He will say to them, 'My Lord has today become angry as He has never become before, nor will ever become thereafter. I had told three lies (Abu Haiyan (the sub-narrator) mentioned them in the Hadith. Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Moses.' The people will then go to Moses and say, 'O Moses! You art Allah's Apostle and Allah gave you superiority above the others with this message and with His direct Talk to you; (please) intercede for us with your Lord! Don't you see in what state we are?' Moses will say, 'My Lord has today become angry as He has never become before, nor will become thereafter, I killed a person whom I had not been ordered to kill. Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Jesus.' So they will go to Jesus and say, 'O Jesus! You are Allah's Apostle and His Word which He sent to Mary, and a superior soul created by Him, and you talked to the people while still young in the cradle. Please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?' Jesus will say, 'My Lord has today become angry as He has never become before nor will ever become thereafter. Jesus will not mention any sin, but will say, 'Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Muhammad.' So they will come to me and say, 'O Muhammad ! You are Allah's Apostle and the last of the prophets, and Allah forgave your early and late sins. (Please) intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?' " The Prophet added, "Then I will go beneath Allah's
Throne and fall in prostration before my Lord. And then Allah will guide me to such praises and glorification to Him as He has never guided anybody else before me. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad! Raise your head. Ask, and it will be granted. Intercede! It (your intercession) will be accepted.' So I will raise my head and say, 'My followers, O my Lord! My followers, O my Lord'. It will be said, 'O Muhammad! Let those of your followers who have no accounts, enter through such a gate of the gates of Paradise as lies on the right; and they will share the other gates with the people.' " The Prophet further said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, the distance between every two gate-posts of Paradise is like the distance between Mecca and Busra (in Sham)."
===
Prophet Moses, peace be upon him, alone has the distinction of having spoken directly so far.
bobo26 writes:
""I find the idea of sending aid to earthquake hit areas of Pakistan repulsive too."
Thats the difference between most Muslims and westerners."
You speak for most muslims and most Westerners?
Impressive! So tell me, when your brothers in
Pakistan riot and attack Christians or Hindus,
is that a diffference between most muslims and
westerners too?
"Why should I be called names? Because I have proved someone to be ignorant and a liar?"
Well, I don't agree with name calling but you haven't proved anything except that you are a
liar. If the numbers you report (including Armenia as a muslim country!) were right, I
could at worst be called ignrant, since I asked
when muslims countries help nonmuslim ones, I didn't state that they never do.
From your site, the lion's share of the money
"pledged", 500 million (you can try little tricks like using a word for all those zeros, genius) comes from Kuwait, with another 200 million from Qatar and the UAE. Saudis only pledged (through Aramco) 5 million. Chump change. They probably spend more on subversive dawa activities. And how
much did they cost us with 9/11?
One more thing pal, the animosity I feel towards
muslims is not race based. Dump the cult, and I
have no problem, got it?
So, Kuwait, which wouldn't be a country if we didn't sink many billions and many American lives, ponied up half a billion. A pittance
when you think about what we did for them, since
they're now swimming in oil money, but money nonetheless.
I wonder what they'd do if they were democratic, and they could actually vote on whether they help infidels? Right now, some mohammadan leaders want to appear non hostile, but we know you can't keep
a violent jihadding muslim down.
Nope, looking at your numbers, I'm still not convinced.
Mohideen: The anecdotes you have included are fascinated and enlightening. I am curious about where and how you grew up that these stories should ring true and holy with you. Mohammed negotiating with God as to how many prayers followers should say? Mohammed having his heart cut out and washed??? Sounds more like Greek mythology. What about Aisha and the crisis she had in her marriage? Muhammed had to either admit she had an affair with a much younger man (and going back to look for a necklace sounds pretty lame to me) or he could conveniently wait for God to reveal her innocence...
Keep writing, but keep praying, too. Pray for God to give you discernment so you can see hypocrisy of these stories.
Did Neil Armstrong set foot on the surface of the moon in July, 1969?
Lisa at November 14, 2005 11:55 PM
How I wish I could give a straight answer. A child – a daughter – has implicit faith in her father. She accepts all that the father does on her as a decent act. However, when she becomes aware that the father whom she had implicitly believed had been abusing her sexually, her trust is destroyed. Under that state when the trust is destroyed, the girl would normally look at every action of her deceitful father with suspicion only.
Alas, I am like that abused daughter today with respect to the media. On 9/11/2001 every television station broadcast the impact of the plane into the WTC. We were told that the Muslims had attacked, and the ‘War on Terrorism’ was launched. Now, there is a peer reviewed article suggesting that the Muslims are not necessarily the real culprits. See http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html where we find:
===
I have called attention to glaring weaknesses in the “final” reports funded by the US government and shown evidences for a likely alternative hypothesis. In particular, the official theory lacks repeatability in that no actual models or buildings (before or since 9-11-01) have been observed to completely collapse due to the proposed fire-based mechanisms. On the other hand, dozens of buildings have been completely and symmetrically demolished through the use of pre-positioned explosives. The “explosive demolition” hypothesis better satisfies tests of repeatability and parsimony and therefore is not “junk science.” It ought to be seriously, scientifically investigated and debated.
A truly independent, international panel would consider all viable hypotheses, including the pre-positioned-explosives theory, guided not by politicized notions and constraints, but rather by observations and calculations, to reach a scientific conclusion. Questioning (preferably under oath) of officials who approved the rapid removal and destruction of the WTC steel beams and columns before they could be properly analyzed – and others as outlined above – should proceed in the United States.
None of the government-funded studies have provided serious analyses of the explosive demolition hypothesis at all. Until the above steps are taken, the case for accusing ill-trained Muslims of causing all the destruction on 9-11-01 is far from compelling. It just does not add up.
===
Now, under the Neocon agenda, we are in the midst of the ‘War on Terrorism.’ Then, we were in the ‘Cold War.’ But for Neil Armstrong and his copilot, we all have just media evidence. So, given the power of manipulation in the media, I do not know whether Neil Armstrong really walked on the moon. Such a spectacular ‘Moon Walk’ might be a psyops of the US to force the USSR to divert huge funds away from the development of weapons.
Allah knows best.
If, as we can see above, a grown man like Mohideen,
(sez he was a teacher) believes such gumbo, then really, there is no hope for planet Islam.
Re-education camps perhaps?
No. I stick with deportations. Nothing else will do....
Then you would agree that we should round up the traitors and ship them out?
sheik yer'mami at November 15, 2005 08:49 AM
Wholeheartedly.
there is no hope for planet Islam.
I stick with deportations. Nothing else will do....
sheik yer'mami at November 15, 2005 11:09 AM
So you want to deport Muslims. Don’t you know that it is against the Constitution of America? I keep hearing that “America has freedom of expression.”
The Constitution of America is not a suicide pact.
sheik yer'mami at November 15, 2005 12:28 PM
Neither is Islam.
Mohideen Ibramsha writes:
"So you want to deport Muslims. Don’t you know that it is against the Constitution of America? I keep hearing that “America has freedom of expression.”
Spend some more time studying Western civilization, and get your nose of that stupid book.
You are not free to threaten or libel someone, but you are free to ridicule someone. Can you understand the difference? Conspiracy to commit a crime is not legal either, but if we had absolute freedom of expression, it would be.
There is far more freedom of expression in the US than any islamic country. Muhammad, may he be sodomized by rabid dogs in hell forever, was no fan of free expression, and had people who mocked him murdered. Nice guy!
Mohideen,
your answers to my questions have been most illuminating, and I thank you for your time in preparing your responses. I have just one last multiple part question:
If an individual person poses no physical threat in anyway to himself or to any other member of society or to the society at large, can there ever be any justification for ending the life of this individual, either by a member of such society acting upon his own volition and convictions or by judicial and executive authorities of such society acting upon the law and proscribed penalties of that society:
A. should this person maintain a personal belief in contradiction to an opposing belief held by a majority of the society?
B. should this person persist in maintaining a personal belief in contradicition to an opposing belief held by a majority of the society subsequent to evidence being presented to this person that his belief is false and the belief held by the majority of society is true?
C. should this person publically proclaim as true a personal belief that is in contradiction to an opposing belief that a majority of the society believe to be true?
D. should this person publically proclaim and maintain as true a personal belief that is in contradiction to an opposing belief that a majority of the society believe to be true even if previously this person also proclaimed the opposing belief to be true?
Conspiracy to commit a crime is not legal either
American at November 15, 2005 02:49 PM
True. Islam also does not approve of conspiracy.
If an individual person poses no physical threat in anyway to himself or to any other member of society or to the society at large …
Lisa at November 15, 2005 03:10 PM
What about the non-physical threat? The worst mischief maker to appear is Masih Ad-Dajjal who is called ‘Antichrist’ by the Muslims. He will invite people to Islam which in reality would be the opposite of Islam. We are advised not to argue with him, but fight him. The Masih Ad-Dajjal could not be killed by any but Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him. So, when we fight Masih Ad-Dajjal, we could expect to be killed. Dying is better than embracing a false religion. If you would modify your question to simply no threat, God willing, I could try to answer. That is, if you would word it as below:
If an individual poses no threat in anyway to himself or to any other member of society or to the society at large …
You may take out the word physical.
Mohideen Ibramsha writes:
"Dying is better than embracing a false religion."
And who gets to say which religion is false? You?
Muslims? And since you believe that, it's no leap to say that someone who accepts a false religion has
forfeit their life to keepers of the true religion?
What if we think your religion is false? If we accept this notion that it's better for you to be dead than muslim, which we know is a false religion,
then we whould kill you?
Wow, muslims like you really do not belong in the West!
A picture is worth a thousand words
Hitler wth Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin, 1935On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."
(Source: Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)
Hitler greets Müller the "Bishop of the Reich" and Abbot Schachleitner
Mementoes of German solders before the Christian cross and Hitler's Brown Army attending church service
Hitler leaves the Marine Church in Wilhelmshaven.
A Cardinal marches with the NAZI's
Priests giving the Hitler Salute
I would like to believe otherwise, but it is difficult in face of facts
Hitler's Christianity is and always will be controversial, it is to expected that Christians would deny it.
And also haul out Hitler's Table Talk and other extraneous sources, the veracity of which is highly suspect (read the link)
Some Hitler Myths
Myth 1. Hitler was not a Christian
More at the above links
Nothing like preaching to the choir is there?, but lamentably such doesn't make a dent
on those that are not in the choir. Preaching to the choir has salving effects, people do need
reinforcement, but does it solve problems in the long run? In fact denial and rationalization only exacerbate
problems..(look at the Mohammadans experts in both).
But hey I'm prejudiced, and admit it, because above all else what defines me is that I am Anti Fascist and I know fascism when I smell it.
And what about those Roman Catholic fascists, like the Croats and Belgians, who were so eager to join the Waffen SS?
I would rather spend my time denouncing and taking on the real fascists, and defending the Israelis from the libel that they are NAZI's.
I deny Hitler's Christianity as strongly as I deny your ability to Understand what a Real Christian is.
Lisa: Leviticus 19:33-34 is not exactly the Golden Rule. "Do unto others as you would have others do unto You" Seperate things entirely.
However you should be cautious about clipping and snipping, cutting and pasting the Bible, for there are 613 Commandments in the Book of Laws (Leviticus) one of which justifies slavery, and others which command stoning for the likes of homosexuals (very Islamic in that regard).
It would be great if we could cut and paste only those portions of our holy books, which we seek to live up to, or which salve our conscience or which represent the best face to the world, but we can't.
When the Muslims like Mohideen try it, we jump all over them, but then repeat the same error ourselves and resort to the same rationalizations and denials as the Muslims.
What difference then between that which we fear and ourselves, if we practise their taqiyya and kitman?
Another discourse "love thy neighbor as thy self" has to be understood in context of times and locale. 2,000 years ago in Jerusalem (or anyplace in the world, save perhaps Rome), one's neighbor was one's kinsman, not any and every Tom, Dick and Ali that happened to live next door.
Instances of the Golden Rule in History
"Do not to your neighbor what you would take ill from him." -- Pittacus,
650 BCE
"Do unto another what you would have him do unto you, and do not do unto
another what you would not have him do unto you. Thou needest this law
alone. It is the foundation of all the rest." -- Confucius, 500 BCE
"Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing." -- Thales, 464 BCE
"What you wish your neighbors to be to you, such be also to them." --
Sextus, a Pythagorean, 406 BCE
"We should conduct ourselves toward others as we would have them act toward
us." -- Aristotle, 385 BCE
"Cherish reciprocal benevolence, which will make you as anxious for
another's welfare as your own." -- Aristippus of Cyrene, 365 BCE
"Act toward others as you desire them to act toward you." -- Isocrates, 338
BCE
.
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye
even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." -- Jesus of
Nazareth, circa 30 CE
"Do not do to others what you would not like others to do to you." --
Rabbi Hillel, 50 BCE
As you can see there is nothing of Mohammad there, nor can I find though I search.
The Iraqi's former leader (S.H) had his image all over the country, did these keep the angels away? Why do many states of the arab lands have these (displays) without objection from the followers of Islam?
Islofob IS-1 at November 15, 2005 12:15 AM
Let us not forget that Saddam Hussein was the darling of the Americans until the Americans were ordered to build ‘Prince Sultan Airbase’ by their masters, the Israelites. So, the Kuwaiti crisis was encouraged and Saddam Hussein fell into the trap. He could have been eliminated in 1991 itself. Then Saudi Arabia would have requested the Americans to leave. So, Saddam was left in Baghdad until the ‘Prince Sultan Airbase’ was built. Sorry for the digression.
Yes, the images of Saddam also would have kept the angels away. For that matter, we do not know whether any in the Iraq of Saddam Hussein prayed in the open ground.
The Muslims do not object the actions of their rulers possibly because of the advice given in Tradition numbered 178 in volume 9 of Sahih Al-Bukhari, quoted below:
===
Narrated Junada bin Abi Umaiya
We entered upon 'Ubada bin As-Samit while he was sick. We said, "May Allah make you healthy. Will you tell us a Hadith you heard from the Prophet and by which Allah may make you benefit?" He said, "The Prophet called us and we gave him the Pledge of allegiance for Islam, and among the conditions on which he took the Pledge from us, was that we were to listen and obey (the orders) both at the time when we were active and at the time when we were tired, and at our difficult time and at our ease and to be obedient to the ruler and give him his right even if he did not give us our right, and not to fight against him unless we noticed him having open Kufr (disbelief) for which we would have a proof with us from Allah."
===
It is the right of a Muslim that he should be able to offer his prayers at their stated times irrespective of whether he is near a mosque or not. Well, Saddam Hussein did not give that right. However, he himself was offering prayers and thus he did not display open disbelief. So, the Iraqi Muslims were patient until Allah gave them a way out.
There are a number of Muslim leaders with their posters displayed; they also offer their prayers. Under the circumstances, the Muslims have to be patient until Allah shows them a way, possibly like in Iraq.
The first thing the allied army did upon entering Iraq this time was to tear down all the statues and posters of Saddam Hussein.
Nariz,
I did not claim that quote from Leviticus is the Golden Rule, but an application of such rule, just as all the other quotes you propounded are applications of the rule. See also the article I linked to which contains similar quotes from many othe religions with their interpretations or applications of the Golden Rule.
I have read all of Leviticus more times than I care to remember as well as all the other Books of Moses. This was not a cut and paste exercise to only present the good and ignore the penalty for giving the Rabbi a raspberry, nor an exercise to find the "Golden Rule Defined" in Leviticus or Matthew. The exercise was simply to challenge Mohideen to find any verse whatsoever in the Koran that would embody the Golden Rule universally applied to anyone, anywhere, anytime, and not to just another Muslim.
Mohideen believes all the conspirisies including the biggest lie, islam.
"Do not cast pearls before swine"
Mr. Ibramsha, just answer one question for me:
Why do you live in the West?
Bravo, Lisa.
Excellent post and a damn good challenge.
Well, sonovabitch!!
Lisa asks if Neil Armstrong walked on the moon in 1969, and Mohideen replies:
"But for Neil Armstrong and his copilot, we all have just media evidence. So, given the power of manipulation in the media, I do not know whether Neil Armstrong really walked on the moon."
That's just incredible! This jerk hides behind a claim of personal ignorance to avoid facing and having to admit the truth. What a LIAR! A typical liar. Trying to pose as some kind of objective analyst of the evidence, of the world. Pretending to be a seeker of truth.
And what would that truth reveal really reveal? This: That islam hasn't produced an invention worth a damn in fifty years. Or a hundred years. Or two hundred years. That islam is an economic, moral, social, legal, scientific, and ethical failure. Hasn't contributed anything to the improvement of this world OR the next. There it is, Revealed.
What a crock of shit from Mohideen!
I'm just a country boy, but when I see a little green house with a crescent on the door I know its an outhouse and its gonna smell.
Mohideen is just another ignorant camel jockey.
No personal integrity. No intellectual honesty. No dedication to truth. You can't talk to or reason with a person like that.
She won't admit to Armstrong walking on the moon because the concept could be simply a product of a falsified media? But she will believe in Allah Balla Walla based on . . . what? A book whose author she doesn't know. In a language she doesn't read? Dictated by a man who couldn't write?
If my horse were that stupid I'd shoot it in the morning before breakfast.
"Prophet Moses, peace be upon him, alone has the distinction of having spoken directly so far." Mohideen Ibramsha
Only Moses has spoke to God directly?
Thank you for the answers. I do find it interesting you belive Moses did indeed speak to God, but is your understanding that Mohommad did not until he left the earth. As Moses is considered a Hebrew (jew) in the Bible, it must be very telling.
You would think God would speak directly to the "last prophet", the messenger of Alah instead of only the single angel he sent.
Following that, Gabriel then could be considered to be the true messenger of Alah, or even the "Alah" of the Islamic faith?
I hope you can respond to this troubling fact with some other details as I would like to fully understand.
Again, I am not asking to offend, just to compare , to study and learn.
You may take out the word physical.
Lisa at November 15, 2005 03:56 PM
Dear Lisa,
Thanks for re-posting the question removing ‘physical’ in http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/009011.php
God Almighty willing, we hope to continue the discussion there. Since I am in the middle of answering the 5 questions addressed to a Muslim, I hope, you would kindly agree that I take up your question after just answering the 5 questions, not the secondary questions raised on my answer. Thanks again.
As Moses is considered a Hebrew (jew) in the Bible, it must be very telling.
Islofob IS-1 at November 16, 2005 02:06 AM
I wish I have the knowledge to quote the appropriate scriptures in my response. Since my knowledge is weak, I give a general reply based on my overall understanding. Whoever reads the following, kindly correct me if I am wrong.
God Almighty gave the ‘Book’ to three last Prophets, peace be upon them. Prophet Moses, peace be upon him, received the ‘Tablets’ in Hebrew. Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them spoke even as a child. Thus, most of his knowledge was given to him during the ‘Immaculate Conception.’ Some Muslims believe that mother Mary, peace be upon her, inhaled the angel through her breath and conceived the angel, and delivered the baby Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them. [If I have to venture into modern terminology, the angel enters the lung; gets absorbed in the blood; the blood that has absorbed the angel becomes a pre-blood and gets lodged in the uterus; grows to full size in three days; and gets delivered as a full grown baby.] Since the baby Jesus, son of Mary, spoke in his cradle itself, the Holy Spirit [Gabriel] was possibly to support Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, rather than convey the Holy Gospel. Since Aramaic was the language of the baby Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, it is natural that the Holy Gospel was communicated in Aramaic. In the case of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, he was conceived and delivered as any other human; becomes an orphan; in the absence of his father, does not get formal education to the tune that he knows the spoken Arabic only; and receives the Holy Quran through Gabriel, peace be upon him. So we have the Holy Torah in Hebrew, the Holy Gospel in Aramaic, and the Holy Quran in Arabic.
In this site, we are debating over the principles enunciated in the three scriptures using their translations in English. God Almighty alone knows how much of the dispute is due the subtle variations in the Translations.
In terms of the time of birth, the sequence is Prophet Moses, peace be upon him; Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them; and Prophet Mohammad, peace be upon him.
In terms of death, the sequence is Prophet Moses, peace be upon him; Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him; and the currently living in Heaven Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him.
The three Prophets, peace be upon them are referred to as brothers in the Tradition describing the ascent of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, to Heaven to receive the command for offering 5 prayers every day in the presence of God Almighty. So, we treat them as brothers.
Among three brothers, if the middle survives the youngest, he does not become the youngest. Thus, the last Prophet is Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him only. The Muslims claim, on the basis of the Holy Quran, that Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them was not crucified; someone else was crucified, but it was made to look to the crucifiers and the onlookers that it was Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them was crucified. Thus, for Muslims, Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them continues to live his single life: his life has three segments: birth to ascension to Heaven; in Heaven until the descent to come; and on earth after the descent until death. So, for the Muslims, the last and the final Prophet is Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.
However, for the Christians, since they believe that Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, died on the cross, the descent is a new life, and thus Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, becomes the last Prophet.
If the Muslims and Christians could resolve the misunderstanding over the crucifixion, the two communities could unite before the descent of Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him.
Even in this descent also, there are differences. The Muslims talk of an antichrist, called Masih Ad-Dajjal by them, who would claim to be Jesus. Since Masih Ad-Dajjal would be accepted as Jesus by the Christians, he would claim to be God, the son, as per their beliefs. He, the Masih Ad-Dajjal would conquer the whole earth except the city of Medina and its environs. In the end, Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, descends; offers prayer behind Imam Mehdi, Allah be pleased with him; Imam Mehdi, Allah be pleased with him after meeting Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, goes out of Medina and gets killed by Masih Ad-Dajjal. Then, having realized that Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, has already descended, the Masih Ad-Dajjal runs away from Medina to escape the smell of Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him. Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, chases Masih Ad-Dajjal and kills him.
I have written the above, in the hope that, the mankind could use its scientific and analytic skills and unravel the mystery of the crucifixion leading to the mutual cooperation between the Christians and Muslims.
As regards Gabriel, peace be upon him, he is an angel. Prophets are from men. Thus, Gabriel, peace be upon him, is not a Prophet. Since mankind is the best of creation, we cannot rule out the possibility of Gabriel getting rewarded as a man just before the Day of Judgment.
She won't admit to Armstrong walking on the moon because the concept could be simply a product of a falsified media? But she will believe in Allah Balla Walla based on . . . what? A book whose author she doesn't know. In a language she doesn't read? Dictated by a man who couldn't write?
texan at November 16, 2005 01:06 AM
The claim of the Holy Quran is its consistency. The Holy Quran is a living miracle. One need not know the author, God Almighty, or the dictator, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, to verify the divinity of the Holy Quran. Once a person understands that the Holy Quran is divine, faith follows. As regards Madam Lisa, the future alone has the secret of whether she would die as a Muslim or as a non-Muslim. Of course, Allah knows.
Allah probably Does know.
And so does God.
The way things are going right now, Islam is a suicide pact. Islam keeps killing its neighbors because that is part of its religious doctrine.
And the rest of us are starting to realize it.
Mulsims are murderers. Islam kills.