Submission II in the works

What is interesting is that all of the proscriptions against homesexuality in the Koran (7.80-1, 26.165-6, 27.54-5, 29.28-9) apply only to male homosexuality. I have been told more than once, in a not so subtle suggestion, that many men's greatest fantasy is seeing to woman sexually together. At least Mohammed made this clear, your wives are need not be enjoyed only one at a time.

In my KJV Bible, Leviticus and Deuteronomy also refer only to male homesexuality (Indeed, the fantasy is universal!). However, I recall reading from another version that eliminated the gender distinction regarding homosexual acts. Also interesting in Leviticus, woman are specifically commanded not to engage sexually with animals, but this prohibition does not extend to men.

Godspeed, Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Lisa: Paul in Romans 1 lists women lusting after women as one of the degenerative side-effects of idolatry.

My own two-bits. Stroking the left's infatuation with homosexual practice isn't going to strengthen the West's resolve against Islamofascism. Speaking as an American who'd like to see OBL in prison orange strapped to a gurney awaiting the needle, I do not think that making the world safe for Sodomy is worth the life of my son.

I think most people can agree that killing homosexuals for being homosexuals is wrong, regardless on their stance on sodomy. That is what Islam prescribes and that is what Western society must confront. In many Muslim countries the act doesn't even have to be proven and they can still receive the death penalty, that is unless they accept to get a sex-change in Iran (inspired by Khomeini and I'm not really sure how much currency it has among other Muslim nations, it seems like an anomoly to me). So the apologists for Islam will have a lot of explaining to do when the suicide bombers start targetting gay dance clubs. "Islam has nothing to do with it" will not be convincing since they will not be able to find one imam that can attest to Islam's tolerance of homosexuals. No, taqqiya will not be employed by the ummah to defend homosexuals, that would cause great "shame" to Islam. And we all know how they deal with "shame".

Kepha, it is not about "making the world free for sodomy" but about making it safe for everyone.
I feel it is good that Ayaan Hirsi Ali no confronts the views (and terrible) acts of islam concerning homosexuals.
I'm Dutch, and for years homosexuality has not been a problem in our country, this is changing fast. Not because the original Dutch altered their views, but because the new ones have brought us their medieval views and behaviour, also in this respect.
Nowadays homosexuals are driven from their homes (in my country, in my city, Amsterdam of all places)and forced to move to neigbourhoods and cities with none or less muslims. Really Kepha, it is not a fight for sodomy but for survival of us all and our way of life.

And Kepha, being a homosexual (male or female) is more then just engaging in certain sexual acts, sex is just a part of life, and does not define personality. It goes without saying that every civillezed country should defend all its citizens, not just those who refrain from certain sexual acts with people from the same sex.

I think Ayaan is courageous again, and that the comments here should center on that and on the fact that it takes courages nowadays to even defend people not liked in islam (in fact, persons who should be trown of a building and be stoned). And more important: on the changes that islam is trying to realise in the west.

"I'm Dutch, and for years homosexuality has not been a problem in our country"

Really? Homosexuality does nothing for the birth rate of infidels.

Love the sinner - hate the sin.

Congratulations Kepha, 3rd time and all.

Do you guys, in your spare time, set up recruiting tables for "Sympathizers with Muslims", and Kepha and 3rd Time I'm sure that any liberals that read this site, read your comments and mutter to themselves "flock you".

It's not a bad enough we have to contend with Muslims, but you guys go out of your way to alienate rightful, and potential allies.

But I think you all have a problem, gays are a problem only onto themselves, a problem they seem to enjoy, and gays can't be recruited. I certainly am not tempted to suffer what women suffer, the insertion of the male member into my sacred body.

What problem do gays pose to any of you? What threat do they pose? Do gays Jihad, behead, suicide bomb? No they work and pay taxes just like the rest of us, so what is your problem with gays and lesbians.. not tempted are you?

But condemn, villify, ostracize, marginalize and all you have achieved is alienating more fair minded people, and that creates allies for the Jihadi's.

Don't even think of asking or demanding that they make a choice between lions and hyena's, that's not even a choice. Like choosing between the stake and the sword.

Since my country is, and has been for ages- the second-most crowded one in the whole wide world (and we Dutch did that all by ourselves, and peopled a big part of the US, South Africa and so on in the proces) I should not worry yourself about the Dutch disappearing because of homosexuality.
If you want to worry about my country, you should worry about the real danger for our democracy and way of life.
I'm quite surprised that, just because the new film of Ayaan will focus on the stand islam takes on homosexuals, that the whole discussion here is now about sodomy and homosexuality. The topic, in my view, should be the view of islam on homosexuals, and the way it imposes this view, and the ways this view alters our (liberal and once free) society. My country was not a country of first and second rate people, it was a good country with the possibility for almost everyone to live its life as one saw fit. Keeping it that way, that is the struggle, combating homosexuality isn't.

I do not ask anyone to love the sin (I take the sin to be sodomy), if you do not want to do the sin, nothing simpler then to refrain from it.
But how can you say that you love the sinner, if you are apparantly not willing to take a stand against views on these sinners, that make those peoples life hell or second rate at the best. If that is love, I do not know what hatred is.

For what it is worth: I'm heterosexual (this is really stupid to aid, but I feel I must do in order to get back at the subject at hand, the film of Ayaan, and the fact that actors, director and producer will have to stay anonymus, for fear of their lifes).

"I think most people can agree that killing homosexuals for being homosexuals is wrong"

It's not just a matter of capital punishment for gays and lesbians in Islam.

Many Muslim countries do not execute gays and lesbians -- but they do subject them to humiliating corporal punishment (usually flogging/whipping) in public, in addition often to incarceration in prison.

By the human rights of our modern World, we cannot accept incarceration, nor corporal punishment, of homosexuals for being homosexual -- much less execution. If any of our Christians have a secret yen for such punishments of homosexuals, let them take the Shahada -- or Shut Up.

liberals will hate this sequel. It pits two of their sacred cows against each other, islam and homosexuality. Like "Submission" they will ignore it and hope it quietly goes away.

Any politcal party or political system that interfers with sexual behaviour between consulting adults, is also a tiranny. Look around in the world to see the evidence.

Maybe she should do a picture on this REALLY OPEN EYES??

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=13§ion=0&article=65814&d=23&m=6&y=2005
Child Molestation — a Serious Approach Needed
Nahid Bashatah • Al-Riyadh

According to an online newspaper, one quarter of Saudi children have been molested at least once during their lives. The paper, Al-Wifaq, said that 62 percent of the victims refused to identify the molesters while 6.16 percent said the molestation was done by relatives or individuals who had close contact with the child’s family.
The newspaper based its information on a study done by a Saudi professor; it was conducted in three of the Kingdom’s regions and included college students as well as other groups in society.
These figures should not come as a surprise nor should they frighten us. We are not a society of angels and crime is not a new phenomenon in human history; it has been present since the creation of man and no society is free of it. What is most important here is not the statistics but the fact that action is being taken to address the problem.
The Ministry of Social Affairs has recently set up a special department for social protection and provided free telephone lines for people to call when they feel they need protection. These are good signs and will pave the way for a more serious approach to finding a solution to the problem.
It is true our hospitals have special child protection units but these have failed to provide protection to children once the child is claimed by parents or relatives. In some cases, the parents and relatives are the ones who molested the child.

EVERYONE KNOWS??

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4313210.stm
Wednesday, 5 October 2005
First gay 'marriage' in Pakistan
A gay couple have become the first to get "married" in Pakistan, according to reports from the region.
Malik Waris Khan, a prominent local politician and former federal minister, confirmed to AFP that the marriage had taken place.
"I checked the report with people in Tirah Valley and they confirmed it," he said.
Although it remains a taboo subject, homosexuality is relatively common in Pakistan, says the BBC's correspondent Aamer Ahmed Khan in Islamabad.

WHY DO YOU THINK AIDS IS SO RAMPENT IN MULSUM LANDS???

It aint nice to try to fool mother nature???

This woman seems to have more courage in her than thousand of dhimmis-in-waiting who refuse to confront this most peaceful of all religions.

Its not about being gay or the sexual acts, its simply a reminder of yet another 'thing' that islam disavows, another item in a list that is getting too long to count.

One of the influential imams needs to simply get it over with so the world can move on with the war that lies just over the horizon, admit that islam hates everything and everyone that is not muslim.

Catherine, the reason that aids is rampant in the islamic world, is not only homosexuality (in fact, it is, just as in Africa, largely a heterosexual desease) but also -and maybe more so- because there is a wide practise of indulging male and submissive females. In theory there should not be aids in islamic countries (everyone is either married or in celibat), but the practise is different. What else could you expect in societies where women have no say about their lifes (and get stoned when raped) and men indulge themselves with as many partners (some by temporary marriages for the duration of the deflowering or rape) as they can afford? What else to expect in societies where there is a shortage of available women due to polygamy, and less fortunate males have only eachother (or their childeren or those in their family) to turn to for sexual gratification. Not to mention the widespread practise of female sexslavetrade, where these poor creatures are trafficed from the poorer countries in the middle east to the richest, and then back again.

But Ayaan focusses on the direct threats to our western societies, SA (and all the other islamic paradises) should keep there own house clean, or better, start cleaning it.

It's not about gays, per se, but about freedom.
That includes the freedom to do things some people (that's YOU, if you have some bee in
your bonnet about gays) don't like. I don't
like it either, I have a visceral distaste for
that kind of thing. So what? I have a similar
visceral distaste for fat women who dress in
skimpy clothes. And how about adulterers, huh?
It seems that that sin is even worse, as it leads
to destroys marriages.

You bet Dr. Pepper, there are some messed up people even here among the good guys. Some
folks just do not get that freedom will mean
the freedom to do things they don't like either.

Ernst, I agree with you. Good that we have a
Nederlander here, to give a Dutch perspective.
That's too bad that you let those scumbags into
your country. You're too tolerant of the intolerant, you Dutch.

Thank God for Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Best of all she is
a beautiful black woman, so the multiculti freaks
will blow a gasket trying to understand.

"she is
a beautiful black woman, so the multiculti freaks
will blow a gasket trying to understand."

Actually, most multiculti freaks are amazingly resilient to rationality and reality. The fact that a beautiful black woman (with lots of hands-on experience about Islam) condemns Islam will have absolutely no effect on the airtight box that PC Leftists call their mind.

PS: I forgot to mention that other badge of credibility Ayaan has that should impress PC Leftists -- she's from a Third World country! But, alas, this and her ethnicity and gender (not to mention her years of experience helping battered Muslim women) will turn to nothing once the PC Leftist hears that she has the audacity to condemn Islam.

"Speaking as an American who'd like to see OBL in prison orange strapped to a gurney awaiting the needle"

Needle??......I'm all for firing up one of those old electric chairs or even better still strapping a bomb to him and blowing him up. But that's just my two cents.

Electric chairs? Bombs?

Nay my friend, let him live in a cell wallpapered with passages from the Torah, the only reading material a Bible and nothing but pork chops and alcohol for sustenance.

If he desires a final way out of his predicament, provide him with a knife fashioned from the rib of a pig.

Let him decide just how forgiving his faux god really is.

If the actors are going to be anonymous in order to protect them from retaliation, then how are they going to hide their faces on film?

Ernst, where will gays go when muslims move into all the towns and cities of the Netherlands?

Maybe when Dutch gays flee the Netherlands to claim refugee status in other countries, then people will start to wake up and take notice.

"Maybe when Dutch gays flee the Netherlands to claim refugee status in other countries, then people will start to wake up and take notice."

Some people will; but not the PC Leftist people and their fellow travelers.

Hey, it seems like a no-brainer to me. She's basically free at this point to say whatever she wants. What are they gonna do, threaten to kill her twice? Good luck to her.

What a joy it was to hear Ayaan Hirsi Ali on AlBBCeera's Radio 4 Today Programme this morning.

To hear such self evident truths spoken about Islam on AlBBCeera's leading pro Islam / anti USA show was fantastic.

Personal freedom, self determination are the very things Islam wants to take away from everyone - gay or not.

Really chaps & chapesses, judging people because of their sexual preference / orientation is operating at the exact same base level of Islam.

It's so nice to see there are plenty of people here just as hateful, bigoted, and intolerant as the Muslims. You have more in common than you think. For the record I am a gay man who does not, and never will, partake in anal sex. I just don't like the idea. Not that I'm going to tell anyone else what they can and can't do. Some of of you seem to think being gay and anal sex are mutually exclusive. Any straight porn film I've seen has men doing women up the arse. But I suppose that's OK. I bet lesbians are fine too. For anyone who wants to make this a religious issue, perhaps you should read the Bible properly. While Leviticus states that it is an abomination for a man to have sex with another man as if he were a woman, it also says exactly the same thing about any form of non-procreative sex and sex out of wedlock. It also says exactly the same about eating pork and shellfish, and a whole other heap of madness. And kepha, suggesting that you'd rather have your own son die than allow others to practise anal sex is just about the sickest thing I've ever heard.

I have no problem with homosexuals as long as they get ou of my face and stop trying to insinuate their agenda into my life. You want to have sex with men, fine. I don't care. I can tolerate you but stop f*cking bullying society into looking upon you as the new Rosa Parks in rainbow thong-backs.

As far as this relates to Islam -- I find it hilarious and more than slightly hypocritical that homosexuality is so vigorously punished when Muslim men are so frequently engaged in buggery or in the pursuit of buggery. I guess it's perfectly okay unless you get caught -- then you are on your own, abdullah...

Article from Frontpage Magazine:

The Sexual Rage Behind Islamic Terror
By Jamie Glazov
FrontPageMagazine.com | October 4, 2001

ALL SERIAL KILLERS, almost without exception, are severely sexually abused as children. The kind of people who hijack a plane with innocent people and drive it into a building with thousands of other innocent people are related to this phenomenon.

When sociopaths rape and kill, they do not see their victims as human beings, but only as objects. This is because the sociopaths were themselves, at one time, used as objects – as their bodily integrity was repeatedly violated. The rage that results from sexual abuse is one thing, but when combined with living in a dysfunctional culture of sexual repression and misogyny, where love is reduced to violent domination, it is quite another.

Throughout the Islamic Middle East, men and women are taught to be vehemently opposed to pleasure, especially of the sexual variety. Men are raised not only forbidden to touch women, but to even look at them. Sex before marriage is not just a sin -- but a criminal offence. It is punishable by a severe beating at best, and an execution at worst.

The sexual privileges that are allowed in Islamic cultures are permitted to men. Women’s sexuality and social independence represent major threats to male supremacy and are tightly controlled. Thus, as the Moroccan feminist Fitna Sabbah reveals in her book Woman in the Muslim Unconscious, there is a disturbing conflict in the Middle East between sexual libido and repression. A deep-seated fear of, and hostility to, individuality prevails, and its main expression exists in misogyny.

Socially segregated from women, Arab men succumb to homosexual behavior. But, interestingly enough, there is no word for "homosexual" in their culture in the modern Western sense. That is because having sex with boys, or with effeminate men, is seen as a social norm. Males serve as available substitutes for unavailable women. The male who does the penetrating, meanwhile, is not emasculated any more than if he had sex with a wife. The male who is penetrated is emasculated. The boy, however, is not, since it is rationalized that he is not yet a man.

In this culture, males sexually penetrating males becomes a manifestation of male power, conferring a status of hyper-masculinity. It is considered to have nothing to do with homosexuality. An unmarried man who has sex with boys is simply doing what men do. As the scholar Bruce Dunne has demonstrated, sex in Islamic societies is not about mutuality between partners, but about the adult male's achievement of pleasure through violent domination.

There is silence around this issue. It is the silence that legitimizes sexual violence against women, such as honor crimes and female circumcision. It is also the silence that forces victimized Arab boys into invisibility. Even though the society does not see their sexual exploitation as being humiliating, the psychological and emotional scars that result from their subordination, powerlessness and humiliation is a given. Traumatized by the violation of their dignity and manliness, they spend the rest of their lives trying to get it back.

The problem is that trying to recover from sexual abuse, and to recapture one’s own shattered masculinity, is quite an ordeal in a culture where women are hated and love is interpreted as hegemonic control.

With women out of touch – and out of sight -- until marriage, males experience pre-marital sex only in the confines of being with other males. Their sexual outlet mostly includes victimizing younger males – just the way they were victimized.

In all of these circumstances, the idea of love is removed from men's understanding of sexuality. Like the essence of Arab masculinity, it is reduced to hurting others by violence. A gigantic rupture develops between men and women, where no harmony, affection or equality is allowed to exist. In relationships between men, meanwhile, affection, solidarity and empathy are left out of the picture. They threaten the hyper-masculine order.

It is excruciating to imagine the sexual confusion, humiliation, and repression that evolve in the mindsets of males in this culture. But it is no surprise that many of these males find their only avenue for gratification in the act of humiliating the foreign "enemy," whose masculinity must be violated at all costs – as theirs once was.

Violating the masculinity of the enemy necessitates the dishing out of severe violence against him. In the recent terrorist strikes, therefore, violence against Americans served as a much-needed release of the terrorists’ bottled-up sexual rage. Moreover, it served as a desperate and pathological testament of the re-masculinization of their emasculated selves.

"If you want to worry about my country, you should worry about the real danger for our democracy and way of life."

LIBERALISM - Did not prevent..........but helped Muslims to choose your country to start multiplying without criticism from fellow Dutchmen. Now they have taken root in your country and have no problem making you feel like second class citizens--which you are in their eyes........and always will be.

If the Dutch can't get the Muslims inline.....then Dutch homosexuals may have to start searching for cities in the world who actually accomodate their lifestyle and liberal attitudes.........San Francisco.....or.....South Beach in Florida should be accomodating.

Kemaste:

We must be on the same wave link this morning....I was just about to post something similiar to your post. Thanks for your post.

Actually, calum, I think Kepha was saying that he DIDN'T want his son to die just to protect gay rights...it's a hard one (Ia, no pun intended). Human rights must be protected, and yet I wouldn't want my sons to die protecting the rights of anyone else either, selfish old Darwinian/Fisherian me.

It's just that we seem to keep fighting the same old battles every few years and the assholes never stay dead. There's always more of them. If someone could absolutely, postively guarantee me that the assholes would stay dead, then I'd be happy to give the movement either myself, or a cousin or so. Maybe a half-brother.

A note about Ayaan Hirsi Ali [peace be upon her]: Haroon Sidiqui, resident islamofacist for the Toronto Star, takes her to task and describes her, as I recall, as an "extremist rightist" in today's Star. This, finally, seals his reputation as an utter islamicist, besides being thick as a whale omlet and an extremely poor dresser, the Prophet is reliably informed. Perhaps he's merely confused about the word "right". Hitler, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and of course ol' Mo-Mo himself could have been called extreme rightists - but Ayaan Hirsi Ali is an extreme HUMAN RIGHTIST, meaning she supports human rights, as opposed to islam. Small confusion; don't you worry, Haroon. We understand you juuust fine.

But to comment on one of the other points that calum and Lisa mentioned in passing: I like lesbians just fine. The Prophet blesses them whether they wear bikinis or leather or Catholic uniforms, or even nothing at all. That's just the way I am. They are indeed deen, and probably fard on all believers.

And why not? Cause I'm

Prophet Geoff [lbuh]

Geoff,
I have no problem with you liking lesbians. I like them just fine too. Probably in a different way though. My problem is with some other peoples hypocrisy. Which there is plenty of.

Kemaste,
I have never tried to bully society into anything. I only ever discuss my sexuality in a political way when I'm forced to defend myself like I have here. I hope for a day when people just accept that some people just feel that way and that's all there is to it. If that happens then no one will have to go on about it again and we'll all be happy. As for the thong-back, I have no idea what one is but apparently you do.

For defending my freedom, and mine alone, I wouldn't expect someone else to fight for me. I can stand and fight for myself, as everyone else should fight for their own freedom. (It's just unfortunate that you get arrested for smashing a bottle into someone's head when you're outnumbered four to one. That's a different story though and nothing to do with being gay). And though I don't expect other people to fight for me I still fight for other people. I am not a woman and their rights do not affect me directly, but their treatment under Islam and the treatment of all other persecuted people is not something I will remain quiet about.

I have never tried to bully society into anything. I only ever discuss my sexuality in a political way when I'm forced to defend myself ...

Perhaps this is true for you. But you can't be so naive as to not be aware there is a radical homosexual agenda being driven by the ACLU and others who want to destroy our society.

Why is it important to talk about homosexuality to young children in school? "Johnny, have you ever been attracted to another boy?" Increasing in our schools -- from grade school on up, curriculim, polls and special guest speakers are inserting the homosexual agenda. And in movies for instance a boy comes home and says to his father that he has a crush on someone in school. The father asks his son, "what's his or her name?"
What father in america just assumes there are two choices? It's bullshit, pure and simple. No-one, and I mean no-one reacts that way.

If there is no agenda then why were the bastards who head the "World Pride" organization so hell bent on having a 10 day "pride event" in Jerusalem? Gawdy, freakish men dressed in fag garb hanging all over eachother on the streets of Jerusalem deserve whatever they get. Go right ahead if you feel you need to inflame religious Jews, Christians and Muslims alike. But understand the risk you take when doing so. Feather boas are oh-so-flammable.

Why do these homosexuals feel they have to rub society's nose in the fact they're gay? Morever, why are "gay" parades always a perverted debacle of half naked men dressed as gawd awful ugly women and bull dykes dressed as the men they hate? We know gay men have sex with each other, so what? Does the whole world have to be privvy to it? The heterosexual parade master who accompanies the Rose Bowl doesn't feel inclined to walk the parade route in his underwear -- he isn't making out and dry humping some chick half naked and dressed like a hooker.. And the floats are aways an X- rated spectacle. Heterosexuals don't have simulated sex on floats in their parades -- "look at me, look at me I'm about to take it in the ass!" The only exception is Mardi Gras.

I couldn't care less if you are homosexual. If that's you're choice of a lifestyle I respect that. I do not want any harm to come to you because of your choice of sex partner. I would do everything in my power to prevent it any place anytime, (that is, except Jerusalem.) But I start to take offense when you refuse to accept my tolerance and exert force -- subtle or overt in order to make me accept your lifestyle.

"...sex in Islamic societies is not about mutuality between partners, but about the adult male's achievement of pleasure through violent domination."

Bingo. Also, please stop picking on gay people; it's unkind and it's ignorant.

And so .. "Speaking as an American who'd like to see OBL in prison orange strapped to a gurney awaiting the needle" ..

I am fully opposed to the death penalty (and don't especially welcome feedback about my position .. trust me, I'm convinced) and so I'd like to propose an alternative: Keep OBL on that gurney and perform a sex-change operation on him. And then put him er- her in that cell with the Torah, the New Testament and all the pork he can eat. I'd leave out the alcohol and add a lifetime subscription to Martha Stewart's "Living" with mandatory religious book-reports and home-craft projects due daily.

About .."Also, please stop picking on gay people; it's unkind and it's ignorant." Sorry - badly placed - meant to say: "To posters it may concern" before my injunction to cease being unkind ..

"What problem do gays pose to any of you? What threat do they pose?" - Nariz

Oh gee I dunno Nariz - how about the fact that one of those poof bastards molested me when I was a young boy? Or the fact that my father to was molested (raped repeatedly actually) by a gay male?

Or the fact that when I am in a park, I have to watch my child like a hawke because these sicko's hang out around the toilet blocks "beats" as they are known, to molest kids, or score a "hit" and have sex with other men in the loo which other people use - including children? I know as they have tried to get into my cubicle numerous times?

Obviously Nariz you have no problem with this - no??

Oh and nariz - I have had Gay friends since - something you choose to ignore while you get on your high horse. I don't have to agree with them, nor do I have to lower my guard with to all the sexual perverts who exist within that community. So Nariz - shove it up your ar#$.

In response to Kemaste,
I don't actually know what ACLU is but destroying our society sounds a bit much. Discussing homosexuality with young children ( for no reason) isn't important, but being banned from talking about it isn't OK either. There are times when a child might need someone to talk to about such things. I know how difficult it was to be a child, feeling the way I did, and no one would discuss it. People still seem to think you just "turn" gay when you become an adult. Which brings me to your later comment "If that's you're choice of a lifestyle I respect that.". Thankyou, but I would like you to realise that it was not my choice. I never chose to be gay and I used to wish things could be different, but not any more. Things are still difficult. I'm 25 and I'm sat here having to explain myself to people I don't even know. As for it being a lifestyle, things couldn't be further from the truth. Being gay is just one small part of me. All my friends are straight, and I don't go to gay clubs. I personally have no interest in going out and listening to awful manufactured pop music crap. That's why I go to rock clubs. That's my lifestyle. That's something I should probably not be accepted for aswell. I have already discussed my feelings about gay pride events somewhere else in the past, and I'll say it again. I've always been embarresed by these things. I have no intention of dressing up and prancing around in a feather boa. It does nothing to help people like me. I don't want people like that speaking for me and thinking they represent me. They don't. And what exactly is wrong with wanting to be accepted. I am just another person, and I do want to be accepted, as myself, as another human being. I am sure you have never been in a position where you have not been accepted. I've spent my whole life there. You have no idea how painful it is to be told that I shouldn't want or expect to be accepted just because of one aspect of my life which other people have decided difines who I am.

3rdtimelucky,
People who molest children are child molesters. They're not gay. And for male on male rape, you'll find male on female rape is more common. Are we expected to hate straight men because of it? And by the way what kind of god awful toilets are you going to where men keep trying to come in after you?

Calum, Ernst, Nariz, Daisytoo, and anyone else on this thread who defended the rights of gays and lesbians, I agree 100%.

I believe Hirsi Ali's film will succeed in further educating people about the various forms of intolerance within the Islamic doctrines. Maybe there will be more sequels--there's certainly lots of intolerance to work with.

Calum,
One thing I'll say about Islam versus other religions is that the Koran (and Hadith, and Sira) specifically calls for the killing, conversion, or subjugation of all non-Muslims in the world until "all religion is for Allah." This is clear, no room for wiggle room or interpretive differences. I know of no other religion that has such a goal built in to its core doctrine. In mainstream Sunni and Shia (and even Sufi) Islam, this is the goal. Also, those same core doctrines call for the execution of anyone who criticizes Islam, and these doctrines are still followed. No other major religions in the world, as practiced today, have such features. Muslims who commit terrorist acts, killing civilians and and assassinating critics, are following the prophet Mohammad's own example and they are following a religious duty spelled out in the core doctrines.

Geoff,
Thanks for the info on Sidiqui. I've been away from Toronto for several years now, but I did read something by Sidiqui on the "sharia" debate and it seemed pretty clear to me that the guy is a political Islamist, if not a hard-core one. He put the goals of Islamists ahead of human rights.

Dr. Pepper,
I'm not so sure. I think Hirsi Ali's work will have an impact on some of the left/PC types to which you refer. The more they resist what she's saying, the more it looks like they are putting politics ahead of human rights.

You have no idea how painful it is to be told that I shouldn't want or expect to be accepted just because of one aspect of my life which other people have decided difines who I am.

We can go on and on with this circular reasoning. I have nothing against you, all homosexuals should conduct themselves like you and cease and desist with the "we're like black folks in the 60's."

If your not wearing dresses in public, campaigning or hitting on your straight friends then I don't understand the pity party.

Sounds like you are accepted. Now, get over yourself...

Nariz and Ernst: Actually, much as I dislike Islam, I can and do sympathize with at least some Muslims (clearly, from other comments of mine, OBL is not among them). A prophet of the New Age consciousness, Hermann Hesse, wrote that piety is the sign of a healthy man. Hence, when they take deep offense at the casual blasphemy, mockery of the sacred, and sexual license that marks Western post-Christian society, I do indeed sympathize with them. By the way, such things are also deeply offensive to many home-grown (as opposed to Hollywood) Buddhists, too.

And I don't expect liberals to come flocking to me. They have no use for me until the OBL-sort of Muslim comes after them, and then they want me to interpose my son to protect them (they've aborted their own or OK'd their sex-change operations).

Thirdtime--I've had to watch out for the dogs when my son was playing in the park, too.

And, Nariz, how soon will it be before those pederast priests start coming out of the slammer, whining about how our "evil, Puritanical culture" destroyed the "beautiful thing" into which they were initiating their oh-so-misunderstanding victims; with a chorus of the media clucking sympathetically?

No, I'm not big fan of going into an intercivilizational war right now, thank you. We can use our deportation laws, pass some constructively discriminatory immigration laws, and support clandestine missionary work, thank you--not sacrifice promising sons because, back in 1979, the Slimes and Compost decided to throw out the term "fundamentalist" to associate Evangelicals with Khomeini-ites.

Daisytoo: While I appreciate your compassion, I really don't want to pay OBL's way through a natural lifespan with my tax dollars.

By all means, it's probably for the best that Hirsi Ali found a home in the Netherlands. But, re Dutch population, I understand the average age, etc. suggests that if immigration stopped, the Netherlands would be a largely uninhabited swamp again in another generation or two.

Goode dag.

"3rdtimelucky,
People who molest children are child molesters. They're not gay"calum

Calum - many of the the molesters do partake in homosexual activities. In my personal case - it was the local town homo who did his business with me (and many other kids) when I was a kid. One of my mates who was molested grew up to be Bi/Gay (it was like he was addicted to sex). The molester in my case was pro gay rights, the whole town knew it. I have also watched my father wrestle with how it has screwed up his sexuality and the demons that were left with him because of the selfish acts of a Gay man.

As for the parks I've been to? Well they are PUBLIC parks paid for with MY taxes. Toliets are not places for sex - they are for all to use for other business! Calum, come to Brisbane sometime, use one of our many public toilets, have a good read of the grafitti offering Gay sex while you are at it. Better yet come to some of our nude beaches where Gay's will actually stalk you like you are a piece of meat. Just don't use the toilets after dark, as Councils have been FORCED to lock up the toilets all over the country due to homosexual sex acts being committed in these places. Maybe the councils are being "homophobic" - right??? Oh and as for the public toilets Calum - if you fail to lock the door, it is seen as an open invite for sex - it is disgusting (a swift kick of the door into their face usually solves the immediate problem). Calum - don't tell me Gay's don't do this. If you honestly don't think that it doesn't happen - you have your head in the sand.

Calum I am not saying that all homo's are child molesters. But many are, or have been molested themselves. You bring up hetrosexual male to female rape - and say, "should we hate all hetro males" - I never said to hate all gay people. Please quote me where I said that, then I will apologise. Also if I extrapolated the rate of female rape in the hetrosexual community, to criminal sex acts within the very small homosexual community, well, the hetrosexual group would be way ahead in the per capita ratio of DOING the wrong thing. You can't look at China and say all Chinese are bad compared to say New Zealand simply because China has many more criminal acts compared to NZ. A more accruate measurement would be the per capita rate within each demographic.

If you choose your lifestyle Calum, that's fine as an adult. But we have had survey's go around to our children here in OZ asking little primary school, and high school kids things like;

"Have you tried sex with someone of the same gender?"

"If not how do you know its like?"

The homosexual lobby often shoves their lifestyle down the throats of children, despite the majority wishes of parents. If the gay lobby wants access to kids - let them have them the natural way. Oh that's right, they can't. They need surrogacy of sorts via a hetrosexual act. Homosexual sex does not give rise to life (children), that's a fact whether you believe in the Ape God of Evolution or Christ or Allah.

Oh and Nariz - where the hell do you get off saying I alienate people? You frequently alienate the entire Christian body here, along with many atheist conservatives, many capitalists etc - which I might add is massive compared to the Gay lobby. But hey, like most liberals, there is one rule for the masses, and one rule for the liberals. We are all equal hey Nariz?, just some are more equal than others.

Calum - personally I don't give a dam what consenting adults do in their own private sex lives, nor do I think that the government should tell us who we can and can't have sex with in terms of other partaking adults.

That said, killing people because of their beliefs (like the Islamic people advocate) is not on.

well, the hetrosexual group would be way ahead in the per capita ratio of DOING the wrong thing.

Should read

DOING the right thing

Whoops!

Calum - you seem like a good bloke, and while we obviously have differing views on this issue, isn't it great that you and I can agree to disagree without killing each other? Isn't it even better that we have a secular government, where (hopefully) the people can decide such throny issues via election (rather than the courts - although there appears to be exceptions in the USA).

One thing we can agree on Calum, is that you as a homosexual, and I as a Christian, well we would both have a place together at "Chop Chop Square" before Friday prayers in Mecca. In face of Islam, these issues are something we should 'not lose our heads over' - pun intended!

Spelling error by Archimedes and Geoff

"Sidiqui" should be spelled "Siddiqui."

A few days ago I was accidentally listening to an AM Christian radio program in which the guest speaker was an "expert" on Islam and had written some book on Christianity and Islam which he was apparently hawking. Anyway, at the tail end of his attempt to be suitable didactic to his clueless listeners, he told his listening audience that we should try to embrace some things Islamic, such as "strong family values," (gag!) and a mutual, moral repugnance against abortion, feminism and homosexuality. His parting message was basically, we're really on the same side, kids!!

I can't remember the moron's name, but remember that it sure wasn't Robert Spencer!

3rdtimelucky,
I don't have my head in the sand. I know these things happen, and I know they happen a lot. The implication is that we are all up to it. I would hope it's a minority of gay men who act like that (I'm talking about the toilet and beach stuff, not the raping. That's a diferent thing), though I'm willing accept I could be wrong. I know that looking through gay personals sites (I said I don't go to the clubs so I've got to look somewhere) there are many people who are just after a quick shag from anywhere they can get it. Needless to say I remain single, and unless someone turns up who feels the same way I do and we're both attacted to each other then things will stay that way. I'm certainly not going to go around raping people I can't have. You have to realise that the men you describe are the ones who are loud and obvious. They are the ones that everyone sees. so we all get associated with them. Now think about all the people who walk past you in the street everyday. Those who aren't loud and obvious. How many of them could be gay. I don't know and neither do you. I could almost guarantee you wouldn't know I was. Which makes identifying each other pretty dificult so I'm a bit stuck. My parents don't even know. Not that I'm hiding it, I've just never felt the need to discuss it with them. My friends accept me and that's all that matters. I'm sure my parents would treat me differently so why bother. I don't need the endless discussions. I've gone on about being gay on here more than I can ever remember, which I wouldn't normally do. This is supposed to be a site about the problems with Islam and it's followers. That's why I'm here. But when the treatment of gays under islam gets mentioned, plenty of people aren't so supportive, which is why I've had to write all this. And yes it is good that we can discuss things without killing each other. That is my worry for the future, particularly in Britain with everything that is happening here.

Calum

As I say to all those I know living in Eurarabia – get out now while you still can. Even my English born father was shocked when he went back to Britain 10 years or so ago now.

I know we disagree on some things – but mate – if I were you I’d leave from Australia or the USA as soon as you can.

If 7/7 and the French Muslim riots prove anything – it’s that history is about to repeat itself with Eurarabia being at the centre of another World War. Only this time it will be about ideas, not territory. Your leaders are either traitors or are blind.

I agree with you – who knows what about others re walking on the street. Like I said, I’m not against what adults do in their own time with other adults. That said, I do believe in the traditional family as the building block for society, and it shouldn’t be meddled with – yet it is, mainly by left wing liberals with their “non-discriminatory” ways (there is good and bad discrimination just like there is good and bad stress), and right wing capitalists who want to work us to death – which is not conducive to having and maintaining a family (at least here in Australia).

Calum, like I said – you sound like someone I could really get along with. While many write me off as a Christian fundamentalist (and I do take the Bible literally), I have had gay friends. We just agree to disagree on some issues that we are both passionate about.

Kafira- there are wuss Christians out there who don’t read the Bible, and hence have NO justification for what they say. Christians who say these things while ignoring the plight of Christians worldwide living under Islamic conditions, well I’m sure the Almighty won’t be too pleased with them on judgement day.

If you want a real Christian Kafira – have a look at Daniel Scot here in Australia. He will be going to jail over this Muslim issue, and the Muslims have already brutally murdered some of his relatives living in Pakistan.

You do not choose to be a homosexual, you do not choose to be a heterosexual, it is simply what you are, and whether you are homo or hetero or something in between has to do with the shape of a part (hipothamulus?) of the brain. Thus, the idea that is dangerous to inform childeren about the fact that there is such a thing as homosexuality is wrong, being homo is not more or less contagious then being a hetero.

But apart from that: not only homosexuals are moving, a lot of Dutch are leaving the country.
Lats year 50.000 Dutch left, this year will be around the same number. However, politicians still seem unconcerned, which is rather stupid, because soon nobody will be left to pay the mulitcultural disaster.

But, back to the movie: I do not know how they will realise a movie with actors staying anonymous. We'll see when it is there (and maybe it is enough to simply keep their namens unknown).

But still I think we should focus on just that: that it is not longer safe to say what you want.

A last remark on Ayaan: helas, it is an illusion to think dat the PC's feel that they cannot hate Ayaan because she is black and from a 3th world country: they say now simply that she is traumatized by her experiences (she is circumsized, although that word does not begin to describe what happened) and thus has a pathological hate of islam, so we should not have to listen to her. Further, they think that she talks too honestly and openly about what she thinks, and since the mulsims do not like her (she left islam so should be killed just because of that) they call het Contra-productive. And last: she tells the PC's how it is and how they ruin their country and freedoms, the PC's do not like to hear it, especially not from a (conservative) liberal as she is.