US to Resume Sales of Lethal Weapons to Indonesia

Tuesday's State Department statement notes that Indonesia is the world's most populous mostly Muslim nation, and praises the country as "a voice of moderation in the Islamic world." It also says Indonesia "plays a key role in guaranteeing security in the strategic sea lanes in Asia."

Indonesia is the world's most populous mostly Muslim nation,
All the more reason not to supply them with miltary hardware
Jakarta has in the last 60 years been the most aggressive and expansive regime within the Islamic world.
Sometimes I am forced to think who side is America on

The State Department is FOS. The country is strapped for cash and we're trying to make a quick buck.
The State Department is the most pro-Arab/pro-Muslim element in our government, and is often in dirent conflict with our Executive Branch.

A house divided against itself cannot survive, a team divided against itself will lose.

I wonder where the cash is coming from.
To-day,in Indonesia they are building more mosques than they are houses,Are the victims of the tsusami going to sleep in F-116,s.
If the USA where really concernced about national security they would kick the Jakartans out of Suliwasi and Kalimantan,both of which where invaded illegaly with the aid of UN,under the friendly watch-ful eye of the USA

Again, from Irene Adler's post at fjordman
~
East Timor, 1990s: US backed Muslim Indonesia against Christian East Timor in its bid for independence from Indonesia.

Will the leaders of the US never learn?

Yeah, make sure you include plenty of advanced weaponry like machetes in that order.
Twits.

Indonesia IS NOT a voice of moderaation.

Are shooting and killing Chirstians, closing down churches, etc. a voice of moderation??????

The problem with us Christians is that we don't see the suffering of fellow Christians as our problems like the Muslims.

I can all tell you from personal experience an awful lot of Indonesians, incl. the educated ones, are not only against the US but also deny that there is persecution against Christians in Indonesia! According to them, closing down churches are legal, according to the law. They don't see anything discriminatory in this law.

The Indonesian government only hunt down and arrest the terrorists whose terrorist actions resulted in death of foreigners, whereas if only Indonesians were the victims the government is not doing anything about it.

jasmine
You surprise me.Most of the better educated indonesians happen to be ethnic chinese,who happpened to go to christian schools that just happen to give a better education.

I'm sure the Australians will be happy to hear this.

They have plenty of money from the tsunami relief to work with. Jammayh Islamia is thanking allah extra prayerfully today.

Pakistan has been that "true-blue" ally of the United States for nearly five decades, and through thick and thin the Americans have supplied military aid, and more recently debt relief, and economic aid, to a country that is not now, never was, and never can be, our friend our ally, in any but the most fleeting and feigning way. That aid, and that collaboration with the Pakistani military, allowed many eyes to be averted, for a long time, as Pakistani generals, through their ISI, supported to the hilt the Taliban, and hence, through the Taliban, Al Qaeda. That close collaboration with the Pakistani military also allowed for an averting of the eyes, or not the tous-azimuths policy of monitoring and interdiction that was called for, of the goings-on of A. Q. Khan, who never should have been permitted to "do research" related to nuclear arms, in the first place -- neither he, nor any other Muslim scientist should have access to any Western technology that could conceivably be used in the construction of weapons of mass destruction. If that means a permanent and total ban on Muslim study in the Western world, so be it.

And Pakistan is not the only example. The deep belief in the Shah, that "pillar of stability" in the Middle East, were hollow, but the arms he had been allowed to acquire, and the training of his scientists and of his military, were after his fall put at the service of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

And in Afghanistan, those Stinger missiles that assorted CIA men, so unapologetically proud of their effort to do whatever it took to fight the Red Army (they ought not to be quite so proud, not quite so sure they did the right thing, for Soviet Communism did not require the failing venture ihn Afghanistan to teeter-totter and finally fall), supplied -- well, where are they know, those thousands unaccounted for?

And the arming of Saudi Arabia, the U.A.E., and other Muslim states -- why? Only because the Western world can't think of any other way to deal with the OPEC oil revenues except to get some of them back through arms sales, the kind of sales that involve the most bribery, the most corruption, the most chance for great profits from diverted funds, all along th eline.

What will happen in Iraq? How stupid is the Adminstration? How many American weapons will it stupidly leave, to one side or the other, for one side, or the other, to eventually seize?

Well, in Indonesia we have an example. Thousands of Christian churches have been destroyed. The Indonesian military may or may not suppress the Muslim rebellion in Aceh. But it will definitely come down, wherever Muslims and Christians are clashing, on the side of the Muslims.

But of course the Americans know all about Indonesia and how "moderate" and "different" its brand of Islam is. Just ask Paul Wolfowitz, who was the ambassador in Jakarta, and learned everything he knows about the nature of Islam, the tenets of Islam, the attitudes and atmospherics of Islam, from his pampered and highly sheltered (yes, we've all heard about his forays into the villages to find out about the "real" Indonesia), and highly misleading experiences as ambassador, being told exaxtly what the locals thought he wanted to hear ("Oh, we didn't know you are Jewish. Did we tell you that we are very different from the Arabs, and that we all want to establish relations with Israel just as soon as we can. Really").

There is no end to this.

For a little background history...on how the US stabbed the Christians of Indonesia in the back previously...

East Timor Revisited

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB62/

shiva,

That is true that a lot of educated Chinese went to Christian schools and they usually don't agree with the Islamists in Indonesia of course. But some of the older ones still feel an affinity with China from the days of communism in Indonesia. They are the ones who don't like The US.

Indonesia is overwhelmingly Muslims, that's why when I said an awful lot of Indonesian, it means Muslims.

A few years ago 2,300 churches were destroyed in Indonesia.
Alas, Britian too sold Harrier jump jets to the Indonesian government which were used to attack civilians in East Timor.

And Maria Ressa, CNN bureau chief in Jakarta gives insight into terrorist activity in the area in her book, The Seeds of Terror.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743251334/102-0478858-5407303?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance

What was the driving motivation behind Pakistani support of the Taleban? Islam. Why did the Taleban offer refuge and support to Bin Laden's training camps? Islam. Why did Khan do his best to spread nuclear know-how throughout the world? Islam. Is there any Islamic nation in the world, to whom the United States has provided arms and money, that is not a real or potential adversary? The only plausible counter-example is Turkey, and that is changing as we speak, because Islam is making inroads against secular principles of government. And, shall we remind ourselves why there exists a global jihad against America, a war in which Islamic groups have committed themselves to delivering WMD to American soil? Islam again.

Islam is the problem. American politicians and policy-makers cannot say it; they are too afraid of potential economic impact; they are too afraid of the political impact; they are too afraid that our 'allies' in the so-called war on terror will turn on us, not allow us to use their airspace, not allow us bases, not allow us to use their ports, not supply 'friendly forces' to help us fight so-called 'al Qaeda', whose call touches the hearts of hundreds of millions of Muslims throughout the world?

We are afraid to utter the source of the problem because of the problems that utterance will create. And, so, we live in denial, and we arm, sustain, and embrace those who hate us and could turn on us at any moment if we dare speak the truth. And this includes the Indonesian military.

What is the greater problem? Admitting the truth and facing the world as it is, or living a lie that makes our enemies and potential enemies stronger, creating monsters that will haunt us in the future?

Islam is the problem. Someone in the Congress or administration must say it and propose to do something about it sooner or later? And, of course, we all fear that the admission will come later only after we have learned yet another hard lesson.

jasmine
But some of the older ones still feel an affinity with China from the days of communism in Indonesia

CAN YOU BLAME THEM,WHEN YOU LOOK AT AMERICAN INVOLVEMENT IN INDONESIA.
DOES GS30 MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU

Haha... LOL... that'll teach THEM to kill Christians and burn down churches. Right Gary, Cornelius?

...And in Afghanistan, those Stinger missiles that assorted CIA men, so unapologetically proud of their effort to do whatever it took to fight the Red Army ... well, where are they know, those thousands unaccounted for?

All over the world.

And the arming of Saudi Arabia, the U.A.E., and other Muslim states -- why?

So they can fight their "enemies" that "threaten them" of course. You know, like the Great Satan and the Lesser Satan?

What will happen in Iraq? How stupid is the Adminstration? How many American weapons will it stupidly leave, to one side or the other, for one side, or the other, to eventually seize?

Sigh... I know how you feel, Hugh. But don't question too much, or they'll call you a coward (like they did John Murtha) or a terrorist coddler (like they did Kerry) or a terrorist, period (like they did Mike Moore.)

The war in Iraq is already over, and the Shi'ites have won. We can't fight wars like we once did, because we can't risk killing too many innocent civilians. Most Muslims but especially Sunni Arabs and Iranian-esque Shi'ites, will continually refresh the ranks of their suicidal hypercrazy troops with fresh young conscripts, just like the Vietcong. And they will hide among civilians, just like the Vietcong. And they don't respect "the rules of war" just like the Vietcong. And they have no qualms about hiding amongst and shooting through civilians, just like the Vietcong. But to make matters worse, unlike the Vietcong, in this case they have thousands and thousands of sympathizers all over the world trying to go help them "die for Allah."

If we start the six-month pullout today, there's still going to be 2500 names on the eventual Iraq War Memorial Wall. But that isn't enough for some people. So let's just see how many names our "fearless leaders" want to see on the Make-Iraq-A-Shi'ite-Democracy War Memorial Wall. Maybe they'll stop at 2,500, or maybe 25,000.

One thing is for sure: the people that started it won't be held accountable.

"We can't fight wars like we once did, because we can't risk killing too many innocent civilians."

It is not so much the fact that civilians are casualties of wars, that has always been true.

The issue is embedded reporters and PC police. The enemy loves to pose as "innocent civilians" or use them for cover, there is not always an easy solution especially when the enemy does not discriminate. We know our men are not trying to mow down innocents but take precaution, however, the Al-Jazeeras will always show the opposite.

We do what must be done. You were a soldier, right? If so, what is your perspective on innocents?

Sorry, meant to address that to KJ...

It's all enough to make one feel like vomiting! The West deserves all it gets!

Here is a good example of one type of innocent our troops encounter:

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/EVOD-6JEJTQ?OpenDocument

Is the US State Department talking about the Indonesia existing in THIS universe?

Or, is it referring to an Indonesia existing in some parallel universe still unknown to most of humanity where Islamic murder-ology has yet to penetrate?

I sure hope it's an Indonesia in another universe/dimension. Because the Indonesia I know has an armed forces that has been infiltrated by al-Qaeda and has been instrumental in creating such Islamic terrorism networks as Laskar Jihad which has been linked to Ousamah bin Laden and has murdered thousands of civilians in the islands of Sulawesi and the Moluccas.

The US State Department is living in an ivory tower if it believes that Indonesia's elite are going to side with America, Christianity, and the western world in facing down jihad. Notice how Christians are being singled out for murder and extinction in Indonesia. This is "moderate"? And notice too how the Indonesian Armed Forces and police have been all but useless in even so much as easing the massacres of Christians in Indonesia. It's doubtful they care (especially when they helped to create this nightmare).

To us there's nothing "moderate" in thousands of
Indonesians being beheaded because they are Christian (or anything else)!!!!!

I'm an American and the US State Department's policy with regard to Indonesia is in my view reprehensible! Indonesia's armed forces have been infiltrated by al-Qaeda are a rogue force capable of untold violence and killing and should be reined in and dismantled--not rewarded with weaponry!

**************************

Incidentally, as thousands of rainforest hardwood trees are felled in Indonesia 'illegally' every day (with known complicity from the Indonesian armed forces and police) with untold billions being made off the trade through the worldwide black market, the question arises is the Indonesian armed forces funneling illegal profits from the illicit timber trade into global jihadist networks? Illegal logging is very similar to money laundering and it's just as hard to thwart.

Is the Indonesian Armed Forces directing the destruction of Indonesian rainforests in order to assist al-Qaeda's jihadist war against the infidels?
I'm certain the answer is 'yes.'

Sales of arms to such regimes in todays climate almost beggars belief....the policy is extremely dangerous and will no doubt cause more bloodshed to us and pro Wesstern Indonesians in the long run. It makes me believe we need a totally new politcal ethos based on survival of the West,new 'clean' politicians,new political parties and new proper self interested political agendas throughout the Western world if we are to get through this crisis...we need a political establishment that ceases to pour millions upon millions of our hard earned taxes into the Islamic world for zero return (bar ground zeros)without having the manners to consult us the Western taxpayer (one of the most abused, decieved,manipulated and taken for granted groups of people on the planet)
We urgently need to stop resourcing these people on every level otherwise we are going to have to pay very heavy and possibly irretrievable price on all levels...these kinds of policies will lead to our destruction

As Mark Alexander points out: "The West deserves all it gets". I am sick and tired of seeing these so called "Christian 'countries backstabing other christian nations or christians.
Millions of dollers were given as aid to Pakistan by these nations. Did any one christian country's leader dare enough to ask Pakistan to stop destroying churches and ill-treating native christians? Very recently,when these pak people receiving aids for their earth quake from christian countries, one village full of pakistan christians were chased out of their villages,,and burnt down two Salvation Armychurches,andtwo Catholic churches. Neither the Christian Leaders,nor the Salvation Army leaders,/Catholic Pope bothered to lift a little finger against these attrocities. Yes,even though my heart achs, I have to admit: USA - you deserve Sept.11. England You deserve 7/7.France,you deserve the burnt offering of 50,000 cars!. Are the Christians of these countries so powerless? Is it not "Democracy" means 'The rule by and of the majority openion? Can anybody from these countries enlighten?

I'm speechless :O

As a Christian living within a stones throw of the most populace Islamic nation on earth I would request that the U.S. do not sell Indonesia anything resembling a boat or anything with amphibious capability.

Unbelievable

:(

seems the State Department needs more cleaning out... l would suggest Amer. voters to email, fax, call up your US senator, congressman, etc.and tell them to stop selling weapons to Indonesia! you need to be involved...hold their feet to the fire.. and to those who say the wests deserves this, are full of it!!

The issue is embedded reporters and PC police. The enemy loves to pose as "innocent civilians" or use them for cover, there is not always an easy solution especially when the enemy does not discriminate. We know our men are not trying to mow down innocents but take precaution, however, the Al-Jazeeras will always show the opposite.posted by XRDC

Yegads the ability to rationalize and deflect, amongst true believers, is awesome. Embedded reporters are auxillaries of the military, in fact it was Rumsfeld purpose to embed reporters so the Pentagon could control the outcome, and not endure the embarassments of unembedded reporters in Viet Nam.

As regards PC Police. Whatever they are, they don't have the money or power of the Corporate elite that actually run this country, and control the media, and are, more than anyone, responsible for putting your man, he whom you still adore, warts, defects, lies and all into office.

There is one thing that the Right wing has in common with Muslims (and Islam by definition is Right wing, conservative) and that is the inability for self critique or admission of error.

I can't answer for kj, as I don't know if he was a soldier, but as regards innocents, the Muslims answer that for us: "There are no innocent civilians", in fact that was the answer we delivered to the Germans and Japanese in WWII, via our B-17's and B-29's.

Now saying that there are no innocent civilians to oneself is one thing, but letting that notion fly in the public millieu, throughout the world is another..not only in Muslim Countries, but in Europe and Asia.

But your point is valid. In Iraq the enemy are all civilians.. they call them insurgents, it was the same problem I had to confront in Viet Nam, and in that war (as in Iraq) many of the enemy that tried to take our lives were women, old men, and children, never the less no excuse for My Lai.

The problem with Right Wingers is that they are reactionaries, and reactionaries are self righteous and by definition react without thinking, especially of unintended adverse consequences

An example of the "son of God" Ronald Reagan, and his feckless administration, had not been duped by the Saudis into recruiting mujahideen from Egypt, Algeria, Morocco and allowing Saudi Arabia to recruit their boy Osama, and had been willing to allow the Soviets to deal with the Taliban and mujahideen on their own terms, the World Trade Center would still be standing, and we would not have wasted our money, the posterity of our children (and possibly yours if you are an American) and the blood of our children on the woebegone enterpise called Afghanistan, Iraq and the War on Terror (which cannot, and will not ever be won, because you can't declare war on ideas without resorting to world conflagration), the Sampson option. which I know is the not so secret desire of the Tim LaHaye end times millenialists.

Pure insanity it is.

Unintended consequences, Ronald Reagan, by supporting and funding the Taliban created the problem we are dealing with today.., he gave them money, missles and CIA support, not to mention stinger missles, communications, trained them and financed their network.. it's called blowback.

FAce it, deal with it, own it...unintended consequences a consequence of actions by your "paragons of virtue and righteousness", now thanks to Dubya we have more a coming. he kicked the Muslim hive when he invaded Iraq, and now they are scattered more far and wide than they were before.

What a recruiting and training ground for Jihadi's Iraq has turned out to be.

Gawd! When it comes to taking Saudi money; some folks in the US gov have NO pride; NO shame; NO bottom to which they will refuse to stoop.

But, as long as they provide the Amercian people with plenty of sports; beer; yellow ribbons; and plastic flags to fly -- they won't have to worry about being lynched for treason.

Has anybody looked at a map of Indonesia,you will see a little Island called Java which is basically moslem,then you will see,a lot of bigger islands Kalimantan,Sulawesi and the Moluccus,these Islands are basically Christian,and Islamic Sumutra.This little Island has with the aid of the USA and UN invaded and raped these Islands and are still doing so,with goverment aided terror organizations such as Al-Q linked Laskar Jihad.
As pythagoras points out thousands of rainforest hardwood trees are felled in Indonesia(read Moslemn Java),but it does not stop there,Moslem Java is taking gold,Oil,Coal and minerals out of these Islands,while murdering the local Christian inhabitants
Indonesia(read Moslemn Java)Is waging a very dirty war,and there weapon of choice is terror.
It is the Laskar Jihad from Java,that is terrorizing the outer Islands.And it is the Java based Bashir JI that is terrorizing Bali and Foreign Intrests in Indonesia,no wonder Bashir and Amrozi cant keep the smiles of their faces,
They must think the kafirs are dumbsux,well this this latest move should make their smiles even bigger

sheik yer'mami
You could,nt by any chance be the Terminator in a party mood.The site you read my posts is not mine.
A few months back there was talk about closing the comments here so I decided to find one or two small forums,and debate.As I understand Swedish,I went to that forum,after awhile I had an idea to start a thread and use it as a blog,I put the idea to the moderators,and they gave me the go ahead.
I suggest that posters who like to make long comments do the same,and only keep to short comments on this site,and give a link to there longer comments.
The advantages are many.There are thousands of interesting comments here but they tend to get lost,because this site moves to fast.As suggested earlier by some-onne it is better to make a small comment here and then supply a link.
It works,you went to my link,found what you where looking for,plus some other info.
I would also like to say the folk at the forum (FOMI se)I link to are a great Bunch,and I would like to thank them here
Chances are I will be In Thialand early next spring.I trying to build a house there,but am very busy here wrapping up my bussiness without burning bridges

SHIVA Please take care and hope you have a bolt hole to a Non Muslim country if you need it!

What can I say that other Posters including Sheik yer'mami haven't said....
US FOREIGN POLICY IS INSANE. Who in their right mind would sell this kind of hardware to Indonesia and infuriate one of the U.S's most loyal allies - Australia?? Who would have countries such as Pakistan and Indonesia also Eygpt and Turkey as allies anyway?? This crazy double talk of FREEDOM& DEMOCRACY from places such as these raises guffaws of mirth from rest of world. U.S is rightly seen as a hypocritical bullyboy who drops bombs on weaker countries TO BOMB THEM INTO PEACE AND DEMOCRACY!!!
This is not the way to win the war against Islam;
all this lavish aid etc, all the weapons WILL BE USED AGAINST U.S AND THE WEST.

The US needs a historian in the State Department. Northern Virginia(stan) is loaded with immigrants. I wonder how many state department employees are immigrants. Alot is my guess. Alot of Arabs. After 9/11 US government employees would not volunteer to translate because they would not betray their country -meaning the country they came from not the country they lived in and worked for. Are the employees of the State department voted on? Don't know but I would guess not. Probably hired by unaware HR people and not just unaware but told to meet minimum minority standards. Do immigrants count as minority recruitment? Don't know. The head is appointed by the president, not voted on. And we all know anyone smart enough to really do anything would never get into the running to be president. Anyone foolish enough to try would be hung out to dry and labeled Satan's apprentice. The leaders in the US are all lawyers or businessmen. Do any of them take history in college. It's probably not required anymore, so I would guess not.

They listen to economists. The same economic experts who told people to spend because it's good for the economy and told the IRS to tax savings so people wouldn't save because spending is good. Now they are worried that people don't save and they don't know why. These same people tell them immigration is needed, not counting the untold costs. The same goes for the selling of arms. Economists don't know history and don't think about the long term consequences, only long term numbers. The current head of the State Department is a graduate of Russian studies and has no understanding of islam and wouldn't believe you if you tried to tell her because that would be racist, in her opinion, I'm sure. Can't have that.

The US leadership can be unaware and foolish. But I don't think the US 'deserves what it gets'. When the captain does not see the iceberg ahead and the ship hits it and sinks does the entire crew and passengers all deserve to die?

Islam is like an iceberg and the captain has not been trained. The crew is being crooned to and told not to worry, icebergs are not dangerous afterall they are just another form of water. The ships that have been sunk in the past were not really sunk by the iceberg but because of faulty engines or faulty design or somesuch excuse. And because there is no expert to tell them otherwise, the captain and crew foolishly relax. It's just another form of water so it can't be a problem.

The ship is getting closer to the iceberg and a few passengers are sounding the alarm. Will the captain and crew listen in time? Or will they believe the other passengers who believe the crooners, whispering that there is no danger ahead?

All of the countries around the world that are not islamic are on a similar course. All have sold arms, technical knowledge and made similar deals. It's just not out in the open to the public. If the internet doesn't get stomped it will be if bloggers get the word out. Hard to do in a lot of countries even with the net.

I'm am actually surprised at this deal. With all the steel mills in the US being closed down, who is manufacturing this stuff?

"in the interest of US national security" What is that supposed to mean, anyway? Is getting money national security or is there something that we don't know? Help against China? Hmmm...

Indonesia bans terror expert 1 day after US renews weapons assistance:

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/a8a63fe2-5d69-11da-8cde-0000779e2340.html

Need I say more?

The following is an excerpt from the www.eureferendum.blogspot.com

..Congratulations are due to the Financial Times for behaving like a grown-up newspaper, leading as they do today on the story about the UK being denied the waiver on US arms technology.

This is the ITAR (International Trade in Arms Regulations) controversy which we first broached on this Blog in October 2004 - amazingly over a year ago – and which has largely been ignored by our own infantile media – despite the fundamental strategic importance of the issue to our nation.

Then, over a year ago, the UK was looking to a relaxation of the regulations, by way of a “waiver”, which would have eased the cumbersome bureaucratic control on the transfer of technology. But, while Bush was disposed to grant it, two powerful Senators, Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, and Rep. Henry Hyde, R-Ill., chairman of the House International Relations Committee, mounted a successful campaign to prevent the president giving way.

Since then, there have been a succession of UK officials wending their way to the Hill, in an attempt to resuscitate the "waiver", and even direct intervention by Geoff Hoon, then UK defence minister, and by Blair. But, as the FT now reports, the UK looks set to lose what has been a five-year battle on the waiver, having been told by Bush administration officials that political opposition on the Hill technologies has become insurmountable.

The FT also reports that US and UK officials are now trying to come up with ways to strengthen military technology co-operation without having to change the US export law

The central figure in the blockage all along has been Henry Hyde, and his concern, as it has always been, is the leakage of technology from the UK to our European “partners” and thence to China and other potentially hostile powers. Currently, he cites the UK’s refusal to strengthen its own laws on transferring military technologies to third countries. He will know, however, the of the Framework Agreement with European nations, signed by Geoff Hoon in 2000, which prevents the UK doing just that.

To Hyde, this lack of specific laws that prevent transfers of military technology to third countries has been a particular problem. With the open UK defence market, which has big representation from military contractors based in places such as Paris and Munich, Hyde has warned that technologies transferred to Britain may find their ways to capitals less friendly to US interests. And, in a blistering report prepared by Hyde's committee last year, he lashed out at Britain's refusal to address the third-party loophole, calling it "not only disappointing, but potentially highly prejudicial to US interests around the world".

His views have also been coloured by Britain's push to lift the European Union's arms embargo on China and has been an outspoken critic of the EU's move, and Britain's support for removing the ban.

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Make of it what you will...

Hold your horses people. There is much to dislike about Islam in Indonesia but in general it is moderate. Has anyone commenting here even been there? Christians generally live unmolested and perfectly free to practice their faith. There are exceptions, there is discrimination, and these must be fought against, but, don't for a minute think that Christians in Indonesia are all cowering in fear.

The army is traditionally murderously hostile to Islamists. Sometimes they use them, but for their ends, and once theyr'e happy with what they have achieved they dump them. One example: in 1984 the army massacred a bunch of Muslim demonstrators in north Jakarta, the famous "Tanjung Priok Incident". The army has always had a strong Christian membership, and even more so, the police para-military wing, the Mobile Brigade.

I loathe Islam with the best of them, Indonesian Muslims are usually brain-dead, but be honest, there is little of jihad here, little immediate threat to anyone. Fight them, but not with lies.

patung
There happen to be a few of us here who live in Indonesia,myself and Jasmine

RAFIA:

No one deserves a 9-11!

You are one hell of a moron. Shut up and get the (-=)* out of here!

p.s.--YOU DESERVE WATEVER YOU GET!!! And that should preferably be Hell.

I will never forgive you for saying such a thing.

You scumbag!

PYTHAGORAS