All is forgiven for the instrument of terror used in the classic jihad against East Timor in the 1990s. From the AP:
SYDNEY - Australian forces will resume training exercises with Indonesia's Kopassus elite commando force next year, Defense Minister Robert Hill said Sunday.The maneuvers will be the first since Canberra suspended joint training with the commando force known as Kopassus following widespread allegations the troops were involved in human rights abuses in East Timor ahead of the former Indonesian province's 1999 independence vote.
"In this era of heightened terrorist threats, it is in Australia's interests to engage with regional special forces, such as Kopassus, to safeguard the lives of Australians and Australian interests abroad," Hill said in a statement.
The decision is the latest step in the international rehabilitation of Indonesia's armed forces. The United States last month lifted a ban on arms sales to Jakarta that was imposed after the East Timor conflict.
Hill said members of Australia's Special Air Service Regiment and Indonesia's specialist counterterrorism unit, Kopassus Unit 81 would be involved in the two-week exercise that will include training in counterterrorism, dealing with hijackings and hostage recovery.
In an interview with The Sunday Age newspaper, Hill said Australia was confident no soldiers involved in human rights abuses in East Timor would be part of the exercise.
"They know to nominate somebody who has human rights blemishes on their record would be embarrassing to us and we are confident that such a person wouldn't be in the group," he told the newspaper.
"We do believe that Indonesia has made a serious effort to improve the human rights record of its forces," he added. "The current government is very committed to that and if we look at how they've responded to the cease-fire in Aceh, its been really quite impressive."
Civil rights records of it's forces, what about it's civilians? Have these people even heard of the two beheaded girls?
This decision by Australia's leaders show how out of touch they are with reality. NOT ONE of the Indonesian bastards who murdered over 200,000 East Timor Catholics have been brought to justice.
My government sux.
Their 'dismay' at the riots in Sydney this morning show how out of touch our leaders are.
Until they themselves are affected by Islam (other than taking oil money bribes) they will DO NOTHING.
All is forgiven? Laughing my ass off!
For several years the Australian governments clearly opposed the Portuguese diplomatic efforts to liberate East Timor. Only after the Indonesian economy went down the drain, forcing Suharto and his croonies to retire, did Australia go from Indonesia's best buddy to East Timor's best buddy. Let us not forget that during the last months of the Suharto regime, Australia had signed a deal which would give the Aussies a share of cheap East Timorese oil.
And when it comes to guilt, the Aussies aren't even alone. The Brits soild the aircraft used to slaughter entire villages, the Americans sold the M16s that the Indonesian army still uses (not to mention military training in American facilities), the whole world was selling the bullets with which 200,000-300,000 East Timorees were sistematically slaughtered.
In all honesty, I disagree with the official Jihad-watch notion of equating the East Timor genocide with some sort of Islamic Jihad.
The only relevance that religion had during the whole process was that the only thing that separated East-Timorees from West-Timorees was Catholicism (and to a much lesser extent, the cultural inprint of the Portuguese colonization which was, with the exception of the language, close to nill.
Does sending a few hundreds of peacekeepers redeem 25 years of cumplicity? I am no one to judge, but it does allow me to say that Australia should still be asking for "forgiveness" instead of "forgiving", despite the fact that the Indonesian regime changed in the past years.
cruzado - I agree, but with exception. Many a Muslim in Indonesia saw their conquest in East Timor as Islamic. International Islamic leaders like Bin Laden had us on our hit list LONG BEFORE THE IRAQ invasion as an outcome from East Timor.
Like the once Christian west v's Islam now. It is those remnants of 'Religion' that form the "borders" between the two civilizations.
Cruzado, have a read of some of the atrocities that happened in East Timor. Some of it, in fact much of it sounds like Nazi occupied Eastern Europe. It is truly shocking.
The Labor PM (left) Gough Whitlam (whom the Labor Party still worships), allowed the invasion of East Timor. He gave the Indonesians the tacit go ahead, at a time when our small army could have kicked their butts.
Howard (Centre Right) seized the opportunity to kick out Indonesia at the first instance as PM. As for the oil, we already had a deal signed with Indonesia. The rights to the oil were already secured whether East Timor or Indonesia ruled the straights.
In fact Howard took a political risk helping to liberate East Timor, from an oil perspective. As the East Timorese had to be bargained with after independence, and East Timor is a politically sensitive issue (with both sides of the public widely supporting East Timor) here in Australia.
East Timor was a case of the appeasing weak left, giving land away like a good little Dhimmi. Just like the English and French Left did with Hitler.
There is a reason why Indonesia waited until Menzies (Right wing - up until recently our longest serving PM) left office, and the poofy Rhodes Scholar Whitlam came into office. The Indonesians KNEW that Menzies would not stand for it. Menzies had already sent in troops to Malaysia, Vietnam etc to keep the status quo. Whitlam promised the opposite, Indonesia saw their chance.
As for the USA - they abandoned Australia when East Timor had to be liberated in the late 90's. Why? Indonesia is a bigger economic market than Australia. I frequently point this out to my fellow Australians when they think they can rely on the ANZUS treaty to save our bacon from Indonesian/northern aggression. The Yanks (especially the likes of Kerry et al) would abandon us in a flash. Indonesia has more middle income earners (who earn more than our middle income earners) than our entire Australian (Muslims included) population. In short the US will protect her markets first and foremost, her allegiance to her allies is non existent including those who have on many occasion bled for her, and only then help is based on the almighty dollar (in WW2 the USA was selling arms to both sides of the European conflict, that is until they themselves entered the War).
It's why great Aussie leaders like Sir Gorton (sp?? - ex WW2 figter ace) and Menzies perused (unsuccessfully) Australia's acquisition of the A-Bomb - only to have England and the USA (our "allies" who abandoned us at the start of the Pacific War in WW2, and then only came to help us out of their self preservation), stifle our attempts at becoming a nuclear power. Which is ironic indeed! Don't allow Aust, a country that has helped GB and the US in many a war to have the bomb, but it's OK for Iran, Pakistan, India etc who are much greater threats to the US and GB than Australia could ever be!
cruzado - I agree, but with exception. Many a Muslim in Indonesia saw their conquest in East Timor as Islamic. International Islamic leaders like Bin Laden had us on our hit list LONG BEFORE THE IRAQ invasion as an outcome from East Timor.
Like the once Christian west v's Islam now. It is those remnants of 'Religion' that form the "borders" between the two civilizations.
Cruzado, have a read of some of the atrocities that happened in East Timor. Some of it, in fact much of it sounds like Nazi occupied Eastern Europe. It is truly shocking.
The Labor PM (left) Gough Whitlam (whom the Labor Party still worships), allowed the invasion of East Timor. He gave the Indonesians the tacit go ahead, at a time when our small army could have kicked their butts.
Howard (Centre Right) seized the opportunity to kick out Indonesia at the first instance as PM. As for the oil, we already had a deal signed with Indonesia. The rights to the oil were already secured whether East Timor or Indonesia ruled the straights.
In fact Howard took a political risk helping to liberate East Timor, from an oil perspective. As the East Timorese had to be bargained with after independence, and East Timor is a politically sensitive issue (with both sides of the public widely supporting East Timor) here in Australia.
East Timor was a case of the appeasing weak left, giving land away like a good little Dhimmi. Just like the English and French Left did with Hitler.
There is a reason why Indonesia waited until Menzies (Right wing - up until recently our longest serving PM) left office, and the poofy Rhodes Scholar Whitlam came into office. The Indonesians KNEW that Menzies would not stand for it. Menzies had already sent in troops to Malaysia, Vietnam etc to keep the status quo. Whitlam promised the opposite, Indonesia saw their chance.
As for the USA - they abandoned Australia when East Timor had to be liberated in the late 90's. Why? Indonesia is a bigger economic market than Australia. I frequently point this out to my fellow Australians when they think they can rely on the ANZUS treaty to save our bacon from Indonesian/northern aggression. The Yanks (especially the likes of Kerry et al) would abandon us in a flash. Indonesia has more middle income earners (who earn more than our middle income earners) than our entire Australian (Muslims included) population. In short the US will protect her markets first and foremost, her allegiance to her allies is non existent including those who have on many occasion bled for her, and only then help is based on the almighty dollar (in WW2 the USA was selling arms to both sides of the European conflict, that is until they themselves entered the War).
It's why great Aussie leaders like Sir Gorton (sp?? - ex WW2 figter ace) and Menzies perused (unsuccessfully) Australia's acquisition of the A-Bomb - only to have England and the USA (our "allies" who abandoned us at the start of the Pacific War in WW2, and then only came to help us out of their self preservation), stifle our attempts at becoming a nuclear power. Which is ironic indeed! Don't allow Aust, a country that has helped GB and the US in many a war to have the bomb, but it's OK for Iran, Pakistan, India etc who are much greater threats to the US and GB than Australia could ever be!
"Did you hear this morning that Ruddock wants Aussie-terror-suspects to attend 'anger mangement classes?' sheik yer'mami
Judging by some of the "boxing" matches in the NSW parliment recently, maybe our pollies should go as well!!!
Maybe Ruddock is saying that Muslims have a temper problem!!
cruzado, Muslims don't need to be part of a formal Jihad to murder Christians - the Koran gives any musbot that right when the good muslim sees that that these people have been sufficiently exposed to the great Truth of Allah, the war God, which even the Pope has called "the true God",i.e., Jesus Christ, and not responded by embracing the protection of this true God. And, if they do not, on their own, in what ever privit or public Army they may be in, carry out this Jihad, they will be taken to the lowest Hell and given the most painful tortures forever and ever, by the only true God. One of the ways they know this, is that the Pope has said that they worship the "true God". If they do, the only thing left for us to do is to proove that the Koran is corrupt and often does not have the true words of the only true God (i.e., Jesus Christ) in it. But there is a problem here - anyone who tries to say that is likely to be killed because thats what the Koran can be understood to command. So, what are we commentators being called to do? Die?
Who will train the Aussies to keep their own Arab riff-raff under control?
Maybe they should ask the French whom to ask.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/656462.html
"Public Security Minister Gideon Ezra and Police Commissioner Moshe Karadi departed for France on Sunday as part of a four-day working visit to advise local law enforcement on methods of managing the sort of lawlessness witnessed during the riots in Paris suburbs in recent weeks."
Looks like the Aussies are taking care of business.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17536279%255E601,00.html
Err, sorry to disappoint, but the major player and supporter of Indonesia was the U.S. of A. and the massacre of the East Timorese was tacitly O.K.d by President Gerald Ford (Republican) and Henry Kissinger, who in essence told the President during a visit (to sell arms) that they wouldn't object, just wait till they left, and every administration since then ignored the genocide (and that is what it was). The Genocide of Cambodians was in full swing, and while the world watched Cambodian, not a peep about East Timor hit the press, and there were no sanctions against Indonesia until the administration of William Jefferson Lincoln..Democrat, and now George W. Bush ...Republican ultra conservative is lifting those sanctions and once again doing business with Indonesia.
All of the above is verifiable, just get curious and google.
The problem started with the consent and assent of a conservative Republican administration and continued until stopped by a "liberal" Democratic administration.
Just setting the record straight.
The massacre of 600,00 ethnic Chinese, none of them Muslim, by the Indonesians in the 1960s was passed off, and the American government fully accepted the cover story, as the destruction of an internal enemey linked to Communist China. It was all nonsense. It was a religio-ethnic massacree, akin to that by the Turks and Kurds of the Armenian Christians.
This has not been discussed enough. The Americans in the government, in the army, in the C.I.A., during the Cold War had no interest in finding out about Islam. All they knew, or thought they knew, and certainly all they kept repeating to one another, all that seemed to count, was the primitive remark that "Islam is a bulwark against Communism." In the first place, it wasn't exactly true. Sensing that the liberal democracies of the West wre more of a threat than totalitarian Soviet Russia, those who wore a thin Marxist veneer over their Islamic mental substratum -- such as Nasser -- had no trouble preferring Russia to America. It all depended, for Nasser as well as for other Arabs, on who was handing out the most goodies, the most money or aid projects, the most weaponry. For Pakistan, it was America (and those googly-eyes that Krishna Menon kept making at Gromyko helped push Pakistan into a phony alliance with America, and vice-versa).
But the main failure was to see -- as many in Europe had foreseen -- the return of Islam, as the Arab and Muslim countries obtained the unearned unmerited oil revenues that made them seem to be other than the complete failures they were, and provided the wherewithal to spread, through the Jihad of "wealth" and propaganda, Islam -- especially the Saudi version -- all over the globe.
As long as the Shah was our friend, as long as Turkey was misperceived as permanently on the road to secularism. But by now it should be clear that it is Kemalism, not Islam, that is permanently undre assault in Turkey, and the lesson drawn is that one can never count on "secularism" in a Muslim country; all one can do is constantly keep hoping to have Muslims themselves be forced to recognize that Islam itself is the cause of their political despotism, their economic backwardness, their cruel social structure, their non-existent intellectual life .
Thank you Hugh for stating this,
The unchecked Saudi export, which oil money conveniently supports, is the proliferation of Islam. The sheer magnitude of petroleum dollars set aside by the Saudi government assuring this export will take root to supplant indigenous cultures and existing Western democracies is astounding.
Saudi Arabia has in the past and continues to this day to provide food and shelter to dawa and terrorist organizations. The jihad groups will continue to be funded by Saudi Arabia with the goal of making the world Islamic.
The jihad will always remain necessary to soften up those who violently resist. Saudi wealth will ensure in the aftermath that adherence to the message remains sound. But why engage in bloody jihad if the message can be conveyed and secured via pecuniary means?
The inclusion of Saudi Arabia into the WTO has provided that country with a certain “air of legitimacy” as they spread Islam to the rest of the world. Engaging in violent jihad may not be necessary when the goal can be secured by monetary mechanisms.
As our world continues to shrink because of emerging markets and competition for natural resources, it will necessarily follow that nations will cooperate or war with one another to get what is best for them. This collaboration or conflict will accordingly bring about an exchange of ideas, both politically and culturally. The Saudis know this and have chosen to impose their agenda through these means.
The duplicitous Saudi approach to international affairs seems to be accepted (for now) because world demand for oil is so great. Western governments exercise a pragmatic approach towards the Kingdom, allowing for its “slight transgressions” here and there. This approach will eventually fail.
Saudi intentions and Western pragmatism actually play into the hands of hard core Islamic terrorists who dream of the restoration of the Caliphate. If the relentless Saudi agenda is followed through to its logical end, this restoration will not be on a regional level, but one which is global in nature. It is not unreasonable to consider the possibility of an Islamic influence undermining the status quo of Western civilization, because it is already happening in Europe and to a lesser degree, Canada and the United States.
The hatred expressed by Islamic fundamentalists towards a Saudi regime that appears to be cooperating with the West has blinded these radicals to the fact that the Kingdom is actually troweling out the first layer on to which these Islamists can build their global Shari’a foundation. For once Islam gets any semblance of a foothold, however moderate, the process of reverting back to historical Islam can be made that much easier by traditional Islamists.
The West is its own worst enemy.**
**Excerpts edited from this report.
Thanks for your contribution Hugh, but I really recommend Robert Dreyfuss' The Devil's Game he covers with facts that you and Robert probably don't know the love affair that the Brits and all administrations have had with the Muslims Brotherhood, and it's orgins go back before Hasan al Bana, back to the 1850's, and he explains why that they were not only blinded to Islamism, but actually chose,, funded, backed Islamism to combat nationalism and leftism.
Unintended adverse consequences and serious blowback, short term gains for long term misery.
3rdtimelucky
This decision by Australia's leaders show how out of touch they are with reality
HOW RIGHT YOU ARE
http://www.fomi.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=18872&highlight=#18872
Your GOV is really out of sync
The recent Beach Riots in Ausralia,with a mob of 6000 strong civilians ,shouting anti Muslim slogans and attacking muslim owned shops ,and establishments show how the hatred is brewing among the common Ausies. The muslims ,mostly from middle Eastern Labanese,Arabs and Pakis,create havack ,and the Mullas openly attack Christianity.The sentencing of two local clergymen by the Australian court for preaching 'KOran teaches hatred and murder of non-muslims' made the locals fume with anger.Allthese muslim illegal immigrants ,who came stealthily by night boats,and landed in faroff shores of Australia,now became a sizable muslim population. This is considered tobe an organised plot to bring more and more islamists into Australia. Anyway, this is the first time,a mob of 6000 raised a battle cry against the life threatening Islamic encrouchment in their lands. Will the West and America follow suit ,and will its civilians rise up in millions and march against their respective 'Islamic supportive' governments,and subdue the evil power of islamists?
Nariz - I don't doubt for a minute what you say re the USA giving the go-ahead for Indonesia's invasion.
But the Indo's also needed Australia's go ahead. Australia has gone it alone without the US both before and after WW2 - we Aussie's are not a complete colony of the US.
For instance our soldiers were shooting Indo soldiers right up to the mid 80's in border clashes between Indonesia and Papua. All hush hush, but it did happen.
Australia also went it alone with Britain in Malaysia - again after WW2 without the USA go ahead.
I don't doubt for a minute that the USA is the "big fish" in this little pond, especially compared to Australia. But that Big Fish's home is way over on the 'other side' of this pond. Indonesia HAD to have the go-ahead from Australia also. Even if we opposed the USA by resisting the invasion all the USA would have done is throw words at us, and screw us in trade deals (which they do anyway).
Study Menzies and Australian public culture back then (back when we were a united, non-free for all multi-cultural country - something Gough introduced). The US could have told us to agree to the invasion - doesn't mean we would follow them - this is after all, our own backyard.
Aussie’s not following the US wishes was further proved when John Howard went AGAINST the US and pushed for the freedom of East Timor. While the US did not publicly tell us not to, their lack of support in the military side of things was telling about how much, and what value Australia is to the USA when it comes to alliances. The US offered us next to nothing in terms of support. After all 120 million Jihadi Muslims are a bigger market than 20 million (minus 1 million Muslims) loyal infidels to the US. Go figure!
We may have a tin-pot army during peace times, but as WW1 and WW2 show, we are capable of stopping the of biggest of enemies, and we will, and have gone it alone. It’s probably the reason that the Martyn Bryant shootings (I believe a secret OP – the shooter was a pro, look at the shooting stats of that murderous day – the shooter was not a mental retard) happened – to weaken our ability to undertake such decisions (as the effects are already proving – an unarmed population and a military that cannot get enough recruits) and make us as a nation, more reliant on the US.
rafia - most people - infidels all of them - that I talk to about the two preachers legally harassed by Muslims in Australia fall into 4 camps:-
1) The Bible believing Christians who are very angry and upset at what these two preachers have gone through in a supposed "free country".
2) Atheists/Humanists who either don't have a clue about these two or they believe that the preachers must have vilified because hey - judges aren't biased - aren't they??
3) Liberal Muslim loving Christians - who don't know what their own Bible says, let alone the Koran, who also think the preachers are guilty. After all - Islam is peace, now where is that next 'ecumenical' service being held??
4) Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists who don't give a rats about any religion, but they can see that Islam is a real and dangerous threat and that the action against the two pastors is against free speech (eg Journalist Andrew Bolt, and the Danny's Barrister who did the initial court proceedings pro-bono as he could see the threat to freedom of speech that these vilification laws were creating).
Group 1 & Group 4 is in the smallest camp in my experience. In fact I think the two Danny's get more support from evangelical Christians in the US than they do here in apathetic Australia.