Australian beach riots

And it would be folly to airbrush away the reality that what started the Cronulla tensions was yet another provocation by the aggressive, repugnant Lebanese gangsta culture - itself an alien subculture within the Lebanese community - which has given Sydney dozens of shootings and murders, a spate of gang rapes, hundreds of sexual assaults, and thousands of deliberate racist provocations at Darling Harbour, the eastern and southern beaches and some of the big clubs in western Sydney, along with Canterbury Bulldogs rugby league matches.

At its worst, this culture had overtones of civil war, as the Kanaan gang sprayed the Lakemba police station with gunfire. One of those who took part in this attack was Saleh Jamal, now in jail in Lebanon on weapons charges. He has turned to Islamic fundamentalism and wanted to explode a terrorist bomb in Sydney before he fled the country.

The cops hate and fear the swarming packs of Lebanese who respond when some of their numbers are confronted, mobilising quickly via mobile phones and showing open contempt for Australian law. All this is the real world, as distinct from the world preferred by ideological academics who talk about "moral panic" and the oppression of Muslims. They will see only Australian racism as the problem.

I know there are some people who find this reassuring that the Aussies are fighting back, but I found it distressing. I found it distressing because the perps were a Lebanese Muslim gang and instead of them being on the receiving end of the beatings, it was the "Middle Eastern looking" bystandards that got the beatings. This is not right. I don't put the blame soley on the Aussies, I place it mostly on these Lebanese Muslim gangs and the police who did nothing to stop this harrassment. The Aussies were frustrated and angry, and this reaction was predictable. Gather a bunch of Aussies who want to be able to go to their beaches without being hassled, add in some rugby type hooligans looking for a fight, add some far right racists, and add a lot of alcohol and this is what you get. We can't defeat barbarism by debating them to death, nor can we beat them by becoming barbarians ourselves. Wolfgang Bruno may be right that we are seeing a clash of fascisms, but in Australia instead of Europe.

The ruling elites need to see the very real costs of Muslim immigration. Northern Europe and Australia had to "tolerate" the Muslim rapes against their women out of cultural sensitivity and now with this latest incident, the Muslim lobbies will become even more powerful and the Australians will have to "tolerate" even more Muslim intolerance while simultaneously aplogizing for their "racism". It's too easy for the media to paint this as a "racist" attack although there were racial undertones, can it be said for certain that all 5000 of those Aussies were racists or neo-Nazis? The majority of these Aussies that participated don't hate the "Lebs" just because, they hate them because these Lebanese Muslims are raping their women, disrespecting them, and destroying their country through crime. There is some racism and hooliganism inherent to this riot but does that negate the legitimate grievances these Aussies have with these unwelcome and ungrateful guests? I don't think it does but the media thinks so. Finkielkraut was right, "When an Arab torches a school, it’s rebellion. When a white guy does it, it’s fascism. I’m ‘color blind.’ Evil is evil, no matter what color it is." I wish the media was colorblind, but unfortunately it isn't.

The media got the French riots wrong due to intellectual laziness and the fear that blaming Islam would entice hatred and now the media is failing to get the Aussie riots right by lying by ommission out of fear of enticing hatred. But they are enticing hatred in both cases, by failing to punish the Muslims for their bad behaviour and by rewarding them (!), they are increasing the hatred Muslims already had for infidels tenfold. They will do it again; there will be more rapes, more race riots, and more lame explanations about "disenfranchisement" and "cultural tensions". The media will continue to pat themselves on the back for doing their duty for multiculturalism and the poor Aussies will have to suffer with the consequences of Muslim intolerance and the rising tide of white fascism.

"Both sides will be right."
-- Paul Sheehan

Ahh, the old Divide-By-Two gambit.

This is the intellectually lazy (or intellectually fearful, take your pick) habit of stating that there's guilt on both sides and everybody's half-responsible.

I'll never forget discussing the Divide By Two phenomenon with a judge in Manhattan. He observed, "in most cases, almost all cases, one side is 100% right and the other side is 100% wrong, completely guilty, and is totally lying its ass off. These are the ones who get the Go To Jail cards."

SWT SWT SWT SWT SWT SWT SWT SWT SWT SWT SWT SWT SWT SWT SWT SWT SWT SWT

I wonder, Mr. Sheehan, if what you term the yobbo beach tribes have a fully developed hate ideology designed to perpetuate itself into global predominance of unapologetic savagery.

When I was a teen and in the mood to fight, I'd go find another young male my size or bigger and get it going.

The effeminate Moslems? They pick on women and girls. 'Nuff said.

"We can't defeat barbarism by ... becoming barbarians ourselves"

Nonsense. We didn't defeat the cataclysmically evil Axis Powers of Hitler and Japan by behaving like civilized gentlemen: we bombed them horribly and terribly.

The posters above show their absolute ignorance and lack of humanity. They know little about these Lebanese gangs. They don't work under the sword of Islam, they may be Muslim by birth, but are motivated more by Aemrican rap music, drugs and alcohol. Just because they are Arab, it is automatically assumed they are jihadists!

Even if this were the case, this did not justify the attacks. The above posters appear to justify these aattacks. It should also be noted that these mobs attacked innocent Arab women as well, and threatened rape. This was a mob of 5000 strong. Not gangs, but masses of th population.

Robert:

This has no place on Dhimmi Watch. What took place was reprehensible. Irrespective of what some criminal gangs carried out, these attacks were on innocents. For example at one point a 15 year old Lebanese boy unwittigly walked into the fray. He was descended upon by almost 2,000 people and almost ripped to pieces.

The Lebanese criminal gangs do not carry out the work of Islam. They are drunken, drug dealing thugs, not jihadists. This story is grosly missplaced here.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,0a14457a217342,00.html

Another man, who called himself Steely, said: "Our women have been told they're going to be raped because they're wearing bikinis. These people try to stop our way of life."
Sounds like more than just race or gangs.

Haidon,

If these Lebanese gangs are not motivated by Islamic culture, how do you explain the vicious behavior directed at women and girls simply for wearing Western-style bathing suits to the beach? That is something that only Muslims do -- other cultures have zero "issues" with women wearing bikinis and thongs.

They have even attacked and sexually harassed ten-year-old girls attending a swim class. African-American gangsta rappers do not attack women and girls for wearing Western-style bathing suits, and certainly not ten-year-olds. But we know that Muslims raised to think that a ten-year-old is a marriageable "woman" (just like Aisha!) would do something like that -- they sexually harass very young non-Muslim girls in Pakistan, Egypt and Britian too.

And why are they now rampaging through the Sydney suburbs, destroying cars and stabbing people while yelling -- what else -- "Allahu Akbar"?

And why do we hear zero reports about bad behavior amongst Lebanese Christians, only amongst Lebanese Muslims?

Face it, this is your culture, these are your people, they are motivated by hatred of non-Muslim people as taught by your precious "religion", particularly hatred of non-Muslim women and girls who have the shocking audacity to live as free creatures and wear what they want.

Indeed, Carolyn2, the issue of women wearing bikinis seems to be pivotal in all this. And we all know what "culture" has a serious problem with women wearing bikinis and are willing to use violence to enforce their views, and it ain't Buddhist boat people from Vietnam.

Right Suzan, here is another link about the connection of Aussie lifestyle and rape.
http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,20281,17512923-5001035,00.html

"The Australian way is about coming to the beach with your towel and sunscreen, and maybe a book, and lying back and relaxing," he said. "It's not about congregating and swarming in groups for any sort of anti-social behaviour."

Now Premier Morris Iemma has promised the law will come down hard on those causing trouble. And what of these Middle Eastern youths' families, and community leaders? They must have more than an inkling that many in their community are up to no good.

I can no more offer answers than the next person as to why this generation of men feel the need to be so anti-Australian.

Carolyn and Suzan:

Undoubtedly they are Muslim, and their culture may play a role in what they do. But these gang members drink, do drugs, and are promiscuous outside of marriage. I suppose at a rudimentary level the traditional treatment of women may play a role. (There are numerous instances of pack rapes by the Lebanese in Aussie). But to say that these people are acting under the direct tutelage of Islam is ludicrous and plain wrong.

Surely you would not justify what happened Sunday however, attacks on random people who look like Muslims. Keep in mind that these attacks were also fanned by the presence of white supremacists and neo nazis.

The Lebanese Muslim community responded. If you can understand the mentality of the Aussie men who attacked the hapless bystanders Sunday, then you should understand that the Lebanese community would be upset, and some would respond in kind.

I sympathise with the Australians. They have had significant problems with the Lebanese and criminal gangs. This is what you get when you have such liberal Immigration policies as Ausie did in teh 70,s 80s and early nineties.

The effect of what happended Sunday is that the problems related to integration will be ignored. While, Islam is not at the heart of this matter. It will be seised by the Muslim community there as a further platform to argue that Islam and Muslims are being disparaged. This will have an unwitting chilling effect on legitimate refelection and critcal introspection into Islam in Aussie and the region. It has already had an effect here in NZ.

Haidon,

I don't justify the actions of the white gangs in targeting Muslim-looking people randomly, but hey, I pretty much understand the "root causes" of their anger. If only Christian people could have the Haggia Sophia and all of Anatolia back, these frustrations wouldn't boil over into this kind of reprehensible anger.

Carolyn and Suzan:

Are you advocating these attacks by implication?

Again, you are making a tenous link at best between Islam and these gangs.

Haidon,

No, I'm just using the same politically correct excuses for the white gangs that always gets the Muslims off scot-free when they do the same crap.

Don't like it much when the shoe is on the other foot, do you?

Again, you are making a tenous link at best between Islam and these gangs.

Haidon, you're spitting in the wind. It's a fact that wherever Islam goes, violence against and hatred of non-Muslims always follows. The UK, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, France, Thailand, Philippines, the Sub-Continet, Eastern Europe, Central Asia, Israel, Nigeria, Sudan -- and now, Australias -- same old, same old. You teach hatred of the "kuffar" to your kids from birth, then wonder why your kids turn into animals who target non-Muslim women for gang-rape.

And the non-Muslim women are the ones who seem to suffer the worst wherever the "peaceful and tolerant" religion rears its ugly head. As a non-Muslim woman myself, I'm not feeling particularly warm and fuzzy about Islam in my country right now. Hope you'll excuse that.

Yes, many Muslims and their organisations do use PC excuses, and everyone is quick to condemn them, particularly when root causes are dicsussed. The hypocrisy of some of the posters here never ceases to amaze me. Many Muslims also offer blanket condemnations of terrorist attacks as well, but always qualify them ( for examplethe attacks of 11 Sepetmebr were bad, but the US supports Israel so what do they expect). Sounds like you are engaged in the same.

Many Muslims also offer blanket condemnations of terrorist attacks as well, but always qualify them ( for examplethe attacks of 11 Sepetmebr were bad, but the US supports Israel so what do they expect). Sounds like you are engaged in the same.

No, I'm not "engaging in the same thing." Haidon. I'm deliberately making fun of your Islamofascist buddies and their allies in the mainstream media, by turning their own specious arguments around on them.

Surely you get it now?

You teach hatred of the "kuffar" to your kids from birth, then wonder why your kids turn into animals who target non-Muslim women for gang-rape.

First of all, I don't teach hatred to my children. My children will not be raised Muslim, as my wife is Christian. I share your concerns, especially when I have a non-Muslim wife. But it does not mean I advocate innocent people who look like Muslims getting beaten and killed. You clearly do. You may not say it outright, but you mean it.

I'm deliberately making fun of your Islamofascist buddies and their allies in the mainstream media, by turning their own specious arguments around on them.

They arent my "buddies" they are my enemies as they are yours.

But it does not mean I advocate innocent people who look like Muslims getting beaten and killed. You clearly do. You may not say it outright, but you mean it.

No, I don't. I am the mother of a convert to Islam, bonehead. I was making fun of the excuses the Muslims and their leftist allies make for their violence and hatred, and you got all het up and played the victim card, as is all too common in your "cultures."

I'm glad you're not raising your kids to be Kuffar-hating Muslims. Unfortunately my grandkids are being raised that way.

Haidon,

Take a look at this:

http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,20281,17546765-5001021,00.html

Hundreds of youths last night rampaged in Lakemba, while further trouble was brewing in Maroubra and again in Cronulla. A woman police officer was injured when more than 400 youths of Middle Eastern descent smashed cars and rioted at Lakemba mosque.

Rioting at a mosque, eh? But this has nothing to do with Islam, of course.

I was playing the victim card for those who got attacked. And also, Islam cannot be blamed for every wrong that an Arab Muslim commits.

I am the mother of a convert to Islam, bonehead.

Really? I am sorry to hear that. I cannot in good conscise raise my children to be Muslim. My wife is Anglican and in my view it will better for the children. EVen if I were to raise my child as a liberal Muslim, the fact is there are mosques and the chance that they could latch onto the mainstream. Not worth it. The difficulty will arise when they see me praying and ask.

Suzan:

This is equally as wrong. I do not condone it. And yes, for the response Islam probably does play a role. The Imam is probably arguing that there is a duty to retaliate for what took place.

Haidon,

For the record I do think the behavior of the Aussie yobs who commited random violence against Muslim-looking people is disgusting.

But I want everyone who acted in this way prosecuted, not just the white gangs. And that is not likely to happen in the PC west. The non-Muslims will get vilified for being racist and prosecuted, and the Muslims will get job training programs and increased welfare benefits. All of which will only make the situation worse, and store up worse troubles for the future.

Haidon,

I think you are the one who needs a reality check. We are well aware that Muslims celebrated when Americans died on 9/11 and that they celebrate and dance in the streets any time Isrealis die. So why would you expect people to get all worked up over attacks on "innocent" Muslims by thugs in Australia? The Bible says you reap what you sow. Muslims sow hate and violence and are indifferent to the suffering of others so now they are reaping the harvest of what they've sown.Are you really surprised? Hopefully the police will put in an to the violence but first they need to protect non-Muslim women and children from threats and intimidation but Muslim thugs in their own country.Women can wear bikinis go out alone and live free lives it's irrelevent whether Muslims approve or not.

Hopefully the attacks on those of "middle eastern appearance" will stop but I also think we need to look at the "root causes". We should be sensitive and try to understand what motivates those who are attacking the "innocent". Isn't that what we infidels are always told?

I got nothing against the Aussie mob. It's a good thing. While the Aussies wipe out the muzzies, us Wogs and our Asian friends are having a beer and watching the action.

Haidon,

I respect you coming on here and giving your point of view which is obviously unpopular. I also think you defend muslims, islam, arab muslims, etc., to no avail. I'm also baffled as to why you would not like the idea of your own children (for whom all parents have a love that cannot be equalled) becoming muslims. Is it because the 'Religion of Peace' is doomed to end in violence and death for virtually all associated with on both sides? What happens after islam takes over the world? Your children can look forward to a life of oppression, honour killings, religious tyrants, etc.?

Now to the story at hand.

Australia is not unlike the US in that we enjoy life, freedom and diversity. People that come to our countries looking for a better life need to embrace our way of life, not try to change us into the same type of oppressive, poor, filthy, corrrupt, tyrannical societies from which they seemingly are trying to escape. Failure to respect our way of life on our own soil will eventually turn all of us against them. They provoke us at their own peril.

Lastly, a gang is a gang, period. Regardless of origins or beliefs they should be rounded up, charged, deported permanently or jailed. (Rapists would be summarily executed if it were up to me.) If these gangs happen to be muslim (Lebanese or whatever) so what? Thats not racism, thats called enforcing the law. Unfortunatley our PC governments don't enforce this because of fear of being labeled racist and eventually the people take things into their own hands (see Minutemen).

Sorry to say it Haidon but I believe your 'religion' is a lost cause. I hope a person of your seemingly openminded rationality will reconsider someday.

John

See what one muslim had to say in court;no wonder hot heads a going to fly of the handle.It is jerks like this that show the true Islam..
Scroll down and see what the paki rapist had to say....
http://www.fomi.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=18872&highlight=#18872
If the aussies are pissed off with the muslims... then Islam is involved.

Moslems only understand violence. History over the past 1,390 years has amply demonstrated this.

As parents, as people entrusted to preserver our precious human civilizations, then, we must stand at the ready to meet Moslem violence with human violence.

Otherwise it's all just so much intellectual blather.

Why is there so much confusion in regards to the reporting of these events. Simply listening or watching news reports could very easily leave you with the impression that the racist redneck have gone wild and cannot be contained.

The events in Cronulla on Sunday were disgusting but it was not the entire 5000 strong group that perpetrated the violence. A number of alcohol induced yobbos did start to indiscriminately target ethnic and that cannot be supported in any way.

The violence following that rally (stabbings, beatings, property damage) has far surpassed anything seen on Sunday and has not been caused by rednecks but by groups of youths that by amazing coincidence happen to choose a mosque to congregate.

One of the reasons this has not been associated with religious or cultural 'root causes' in the media is that there are still a large percentage of the population that are not able to comprehend such a fact. It is much easier for them to focus on one sub-set (ie: lebs) even if it can be proven that is not the case.

And after reading an eye-witness report stating that the police were not attacked but assisted by the 'bra boys when confronted by the rioting mobs I am very surprised that they have gone to the extent of disarmament. It has to be remembered though that the 'bra boys have not been choir boys in the past...

Didn't Australia take in a bunch of Vietnamese 'boat people' several years ago? There has to be a large Chinese community as well. What happens when the Asians go to the beach? Are they harrassing women too?

Sigh. If only Muslims who move to Western lands would be more respectful of Western culture instead of acting like mentally deficient hyeinas, things like this wouldn't be so apt to happen. In the meantime, its good to see these 'men of middle eastern appearance' being addressed. Oh well, what are you going to do?

Michelle:
There is quite a large Vietnamese community in Australia. According to the 2001 census they are the 3rd largest non-english speaking ethnic group. Statistics also show that a large number of Vietnamese are involved in crime, significantly higher then their percentage in the general community.

However, they seem to mainly focus on drug distribution rather then targeting indivuals. Gangs can become a problem but I am not so sure about up in Sydney although both Vic & NSW contain approx 50k each and Cabramatta is known for having a large Vietnamese population.

Hope this helps...

Michelle, I doubt very much the Muslim thugs would leave Asian women alone. Last night, during the Muslim rampage through one of Sydney's neighbourhoods they attacked a Thai restaurant owner (a woman) and smashed her car. I'm sure if any of the victimised Cronulla beachgoers in the past were Asians they'd have copped the same abuse as Caucasian Aussies. All they see is a woman slut in a bikini, someone who should be hidden away inside someplace cooking. And I'm sure if her boyfriend/husband was Asian and tried to come to her aid, he'd have been bashed by half a dozen or more Muslim thugs, just like Caucasian boyfriends/husbands have been in the past. They don't discriminate. Kafir is kafir.

Anyone for volleyball?

pythagoras, do you mean with burkha or bikini?

Igor- Bravo! You are exactly right. Well done.

I don't condone violence on innocents caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, but it is Islamic communities that have set in motion this backlash.

The world should seriously consider the root causes of this conflict - muslim violence in almost every country they have been allowed to enter.

If you want to stop rioting by Aussie Youth, then the police should do their jobs and eliminate the Muslim gangs.

If you can not stop the violence, especially against non-Muslim girls then the only choice is deportation of a great part of the Muslim Lebanese community.

The state of disorder and burden on Australia by it's Muslim minority can only be addressed by a ban on any further immigration and deportation of anyone who doesn't respect Australia's laws.

A word of caution to Australia's Muslim minority. it appears that the Aussies are not afraid to fight back... I just hope that the guilty are the one that get it.

I see Haidon is back, but he continues to ignore the reasonable challenge of Archimedes from last week -- a challenge he said he would try to respond to. I even sent him an email yesterday reminding him of it, and telling him how to easily access that thread (sometimes threads are difficult to find here as they quickly get buried). I received no response. And I see he has not visited that thread yet.

Now he's trying to argue that the rampaging behavior of these Muslim gangs has nothing to do with Islam. I won't even bother to do more than skim over his many attempts to defend this Absolute Perfection on Earth called Islam on this thread -- at least not until he responds, point-by-point and directly & clearly, to the many questions of Archimedes.

Excelllent article giving an overview of events to date:

First Israel, then France, Denmark and Belgium - and now Australia. Muslims rioted for a second night in Sydney and nearby suburbs Monday, attacking resident and police and smashing cars.

The latest "Intifada" began down under with a group of Lebanese immigrants beating two life guards on Sydney's Cronulla beach Sunday. The Beach is the site of a memorial for victims of the Islamic terror attacks in Bali, in which six local women were murdered. Thousands of Australian youths then flocked to the beach and began indiscriminately attacking anyone they believed to be Arab immigrants. About 300,000 Muslims live in Australia, the majority in large cities.

Continues at:
http://www.arutzsheva.com/news.php3?id=94660
via
http://acage.org/news/?day=12132005&id=0008

Reap as you sow, Muslims. You complain about innocent Muslim women in hijabs being attacked by rampaging Aussies, etc etc , didnt hear you lot complaining when your vicious little thugs were gang raping Australian teenage girls and killing people for their wallets and mobile phones. Now the shoe is somewhat on the other foot, Muslims bleat about 'racist attacks' on the innocent. Didnt hear any complaints about racist attacks on innocent Australians, however.

This is scary because it will escalate. I hope the next stage wont be gun battles (not all Aussies handed in their guns, nor are all guns illegal here), but I fear it will. One bright spot is that Muslims are vastly outnumbered. All sorts of gossip is going around, the police just found a big stash of molotov cocktails intended no doubt to deal with invading Lebs in cars, like the 150+ who invaded the suburb of Maroubra last night and destroyed dozens of residents cars with baseball bats and hammers. The MSM media calls them 'youths' - dont be fooled, they are gangs of Lebenese Muslims out for payback.

This is just the beginning. It seems that Sydney people have decided to fight back at last.

I just need to pitch in here

- Of course I condemn indiscriminate violence against anyone who just happens to be there. In a perfect world, all the "religion of peace" thugs would be gathered at the same place, when the aussie mob went "overboard" so to speak.

- But thing is, it was bound to happen. As someone said earlier, you reap what you sow. And considering what the muslims of the world have sown the last years, I am surprised we dont have open hunting season on them already, seriously.

- No I dont want that, but I sure as hell dont want to see more muslims in my life either. I already left my country due to its creeping infection of this disease, to a more "islam free" country (and my wife cant stop thanking me for this), and all these "innocent" muslims share in fact a huuuuuuge collective blame in all that is taking place in the world in regards to islamofascism and its adherents.

Their condemnations are bleak at beast, insulting at worst, their double standards when they speak of "islam is not one" and then say "we, the ummah".

No I dont condone it, but I sure as hell expect it, and put the blame where the blame should be: the muslims. That the mob shows lack of rational thought in their target picking i simply attribute to alcohol, and serious rage (and of course the occasional "real" racist).

I wish there were better options, but again, they had it coming. And there will be more.

Bravo, People of Australian fight back!

Know that, the non-dihimmis among us support you, as you are a apart of growing global ant-Jihad.

I would say, that to date the test has fallen upon you, to show the rest of the world how to fight the creeping and hidden sharia - that the umma wants to establish in every country.

Fight, within the law, but fear not if you must defend your families from roving gangs of Muslims bent on intimidating you.

Everyone that I know and correspond with, in countries from Sweden to India, from Nigeria to Philippines, are talking about the events in Sydney.

The world supports you! Your fight is ours. Your fight is the World's.

Like my ancestors in Spain and the reconquista, your reconquista has begun.

Euro dhimmi said:And considering what the muslims of the world have sown the last years, I am surprised we dont have open hunting season on them already, seriously.
I couldn't agree more.
These barbarians come into our country, are disloyal to it, foment almost unbelivable acts of barbarism aginst our citizens,and then hide behind the civil liberties that they are working to destroy.
I never undestood why the good citizens of New York didn't take to the streets and destroy mosques after 9/11. These people are working dilligently to kill us - why can't we attack them?
I hate cancer, I hate AIDS, and I hate a group of people who are working to topple my beautiful homeland.
Go Aussies!!!!!

YOBs they may be but the YOBs didn't show up by the carload loaded with bats and pipes though they certainly didn't back down. They were there doing what they do every day. Hang out in the sun. Why, if the YOBs are so bad, hasn't this been happening for years instead of since the advent of Middle Eastern immigration with people of a repressed closed culture coming to free and open Australia, particularly the beaches, where, if you're a prude, you are going to see plenty to shock you.

El Cid;

Here, here! Well stated and as I said above, the common denominator is the Islamic way of death or way of life, whatever you want to call it. There is no answer to this problem except deportation or eradication.

You don't talk to a tumor or ask why it feels so misunderstood or give it training as it ravages your body. You cut it out.

You stand firm Australia and we stand with you.

JP

Again, you are making a tenous link at best between Islam and these gangs.
Posted by: Haidon

I am amazed. Whenever the horrors of Catholicism are rehashed, all of Christianity is painted with that awful brush without a pause, but when thugs yelling "Allahu Akbar" and then assault women who aren't following their religious guidelines, the link is "tenous?" Go choke on your big black idol-stone.

If muslims are concerned about the link between Islam and the current violence maybe it would prevent confusion if large crowds didn't congregate at mosques before setting off to burn churches.

Just an observation.

And great analogy JohnnyUno, those pooor misunderstood tumors...

I've never been so proud of my countrymen as I have been now.

Australians don't take shit from anyone. The sexual harassment of Australian women by Lebanese muslims have been going on for years. Now Aussies are fighting back.

This is definitely NOT a racial issue. Australian youth are fighting back against Muslim gangs and the crime and harassment that they've caused. There are hundreds of thousands of Lebanese, Palestinian, and Egyptian Christians who are fully integrated into Aussie society without problems. The Aussie youth did not target these people because they look Middle Eastern but because they are Muslim criminals.

Now maybe these young people should march from the beaches to Canberra and sieze control of the Australian government.

Voltaire
i dont and i wouldnt recommend that violenceto be the answer.

funny how waterdragon52 only rears her ugly head when anyone mentions a certain british right wing party, yet we don't hear a peep from her when someone advocates violent direct action towards muslims. have the street gangs palguing the beach been proven to be of muslim or christian desent? how many innocent aisans, blacks, or hindus were beaten up by drunk white yobs?

nick phoenix:
Are you serious? You must have seen the footage and read the reports. On Sunday a number of "drunk yobs" did attack innocent people. I would take a guess and lets say 40 as a HUGE exaggeration.

Very bad. Not condonable. Disgusting.

Since then:
Beatings, stabbings, arson, rampaging gangs, calls of allah akbar, shooting at a primary school carols night, and more than I have time to list.

And not everyone at Cronulla on sunday was white. You seem to be the one of those making an issue of colour rather than behaviour.

I would think that would be defined as racist, wouldn't you?

Would now be a good time to request of your PM a bump of Aussie troop levels in Iraq? How about additional Aussie companies/battalions made up of volunteers from the ranks?

To My Aussie friends....

You all have my support,and I wish I could be there now that the MSM can (almost) see the true evil in the world

Unfortunately,I'm not only totally broke,but I'm needed here in the last great communist state(Mass) in the world

When the SHTF,I'll be in the lead here in the states,but my friends "Down Under" have the total support of my family,my friends,and the WHOLE of the "fly over" states here in the US

By the way Jhonny Uno???.........ERADICATION

I'm glad to see that some people are condeming what happened on that first day in Sydney. There is no justification for it full stop.

However, the Muslim response has proved to be equally reprehensible, full stop.

Dr Pepper:

I did respond check your inbox again, in case you missed it here it is below. It does not answer all of Archimedes questions. I admit that I don't have all of the answers.

Here are a couple of instances where I provide a bit better of an explanation:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15393

http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16023

Kia ora Derrick:

I am going to give an interim answer, that you and you
colleagues may find a bit "weak". Archimedes has
essentially asked me to undertake exegesis of the
Qur'an, particularly of the the verses of the sword, as
well as other areas. At any rate, I do not think I
will be able to answer you satisfactorily. I just don't
have the answers. He raises important questions that
must be honestly faced, other wise the so called
reformist discourse is bullshit.

Archimedes has attempted a bit of exegesis himself,
through a plain meaning reading of those verses. (Fair
enough. I do not blame non-Muslims for believing the
Qur'an is "evil". If we take the plain meaning of those
verses they can mean nothing else but edicts permitting
the killing of non-Muslims, beating of women, etc).
This is why a non-literalist approach is best (The
methodology of such an approach is not something I have
developed).

Here are some key links:

http://ahmed.g3z.com/researches/islamreligionogpeacee.htm

http://ahmed.g3z.com/researches/rightofwoman.htm
http://ahmed.g3z.com/researches/freedomofspeech.htm
http://ahmed.g3z.com/researches/history.htm
http://ahmed.g3z.com/researches/contradictione.htm

Archimedes wrote (fairly):

After having read your posts, I believe that (1)you are
underestimating the problems in attempting a
reconstruction of the Koran in a "good" interpretation.
I also believe (2) you are underestimating the problems
in attempting to interpret the Koran, in any certain
terms, without the support of the Hadith and Sira.
Re (1), here is just a brief sample of the problems you
face. Here's your challenge: Find us the "good"
interpretation of the adjectives used in the following
verses.

Disbelievers/non-Muslims: are “worst of created beings”
(98:6), are “miscreants” (2:99, 24:55), are the worst
beasts in Allah’s sight (8:55, 8:22); (Christians
and/or Jews are) turned into “apes and/or pigs”
(2:65-66, 5:58-60, 7:166); (idolaters are) unclean
(9:28); “evil” is upon them (16:27), evil (2:91, 2:99);
“wicked” (80:42, 9:125); the “wrong-doers” (42:45,
2:254, 5:45); evil-doers (42:44); are “guilty” for
disbelieving (45:31, 83:29); on the side of the devil
(Satan) and are fighting for him (4:76-77); of the
party of Satan (58:19); Allah assigns them devils for
protecting friends (7:27); they choose devils for
protecting friends (7:30); are partisan against Allah
(25:55); “enemy” and “perverted” (63:4); disgraced
lives (22:9); hypocrites (4:61); have a “diseased
heart” (2:10, 9:125); are ill (84:20); deaf, dumb, and
blind, and have no sense (2:171); deaf and dumb and in
darkness, Allah sends them astray (6:39); have no sense
(5:103); a folk who do not understand (9:127); their
fathers were unintelligent and had no knowledge or
guidance (2:170, 5:104); are “a folk without
intelligence”/ “most ignorant” (8:65, 6:111); losers
who are deceived by Allah (2:6), and deceived by Satan
(4:60); liars/they lie (2:10, 9:42, 16:39, 16:105,
59:11) “losers” (7:179); foolish and liars (7:66),
liars and losers (58:18-19), false pride and schism
(38:2).

I can make no apologies for these verses and I will not
attempt to. And I hate to use equivalency arguments
with Judaism and Christianity, but non-believers are
critcised in those religions as well. Many Muslims, as
you know take these ayah literally, and when augmented
by Ahadith they are fortified.

In closing I ask you to read something of topic from my
colleague:

This is not the first time that Fahmi Howaydy attacks
me, nor will it be the last.

He accuses me of working with others to dismantle
Islam, although the Islam I believe in is not amenable
to dismantling since it is the Holy Quran only, and it
is preserved by God Almighty and immune to the
falsification and the corruption of mankind.

It may be that he confuses Islam with the Muslims and
accuses me of working towards dismantling the Muslims.
However, the disintegration of the Muslims into sects
has started two decades after the death of the prophet
Mohammed, since the great civil war between the early
Muslims; the Companions of Mohammed, then it has
evolved and spread for ten centuries. Today the Muslims
are divided into three major sects, the Sunna, the
Shiites and the Sufis. [Note: Sufis are not a separate
sect – CIP]. Every one of these sects has, in turn,
disintegrated internally into various schools of
jurisprudence and factions.

The Sunna has disintegrated, in the Third Century of
Islam, into four schools of jurisprudence of which the
most fanatic is the Hanbali School. That Hanbali School
also immediately broke up into various factions of
which the most fundamentalist was Ibn Taymiyah in the
Eighth Century of Islam.

And from the trend relating to Ibn Taymiyah, there
sprouted, in the modern age, an undercurrent that was
even more fundamentalist and violent, that is the
Wahhabis, thus increasing the disintegration of the
Sunna even further.

It is to Wahhabism that Fahmy Howaydy's loyalty goes.
He deems it alone to be Islam, denying all the other
Muslims and accusing anyone who even discusses
Wahaabism of being anti-Islamic, or of working towards
the dismantling of Islam and incites against him.

The terrorists consider his incitement a license to
kill, and so the thinker or the intellectual loses his
life, as happened to Dr. Farag Foda, or he disappears
without a trace as happened with the journalist Rida
Hilal, or he is forced into exile as has happened with
me and with Nasr Hamed Abu Zeid, or he is made to
scream, objecting in fear of the fate that awaits him,
as happened with Dr. Saad ed Deen Ibrahim and others.
The victims of Fahmi El Howaydy are indeed many, among
is he who has met his fate and among them is he who is
still waiting.

Let us read together what 'Dismantling Islam' says,
that we might become familiar, with that phenomenon
that is called Fahmy Howaydy.

Howaydy spoke of, “The efforts exerted by the extremist
American writer, Daniel Pipes, to establish a
progressive institute to represent the voices of the
liberal Muslims of the United States”. He says,
“Pipes' project aims at the establishment of a
progressive center under the name of 'The Center for
Islamic Pluralism'. He declared that the object is
the encouragement of moderate Islam in the United
States and the world, as well as com-batting the
influence of armed Islam, and neutralizing the efforts
of the organizations that are oriented towards Wahhabi
extremism, through the media and in co-operation with
U.S. governmental organizations.” He also says, “In
a later article, published by the agency, by the same
author, on February 2005, is important information
about the people responsible for the center and its
sources of funding. Its director is an American
Muslim called Stephen Schwartz. As for his assistant,
he is Egyptian. He had been dismissed from Al-Azhar
in the eighties for his rejection of the traditions of
the Prophet. He then went to the United States for a
while, and then returned to Egypt to become one of the
pillars of the Ibn Khaldoun Center. Then, after the
legal problems faced by the Center and its director, in
2000, he disappeared from Egypt and reappeared in the
U.S. to become one of the preachers of moderate
American Islam. Daniel Pipes cited his name, among
others, in an article entitled 'Recognizing Moderate
Muslims’ published in the 'New York Sun' on 24 November
2004.” He further says, “The article by Daniel Pipes,
published in The New York Sun, is of particular
importance for it discloses the concentrated efforts
exerted to preach American Islam through disintegrating
Islam and nullifying it. He considers that this
concentration constitutes good news because it conveys
to the readers the news of the involvement of some
Muslims in the campaign against the activities of the
Islamists (He means the extremists and the radicals).
He said that these raised their voices after the events
of September 11th. He mentioned, in this respect, the
names of seven people including that of Dr. Subhy
Mansour, the man dismissed from Al-Azhar University.
Also Dr. Bassam Tibi, who is one of the Syrian
secularists most noted for their exaggerated views.”
He goes on to say, “I do not believe that I am wrong in
that I have removed the mantle of innocence from these
efforts, at least as far as methods and aims are
concerned. It is indeed one's right to doubt
them when one finds that those who support Islamic
moderation and renewal are among the veteran enemies of
Islam and are Muslims allied to Israel. It is also
one's right to raise numerous question marks concerning
the relationship between these activities and the war
of ideas declared by the American Administration in the
wake of September 11th, the object of which is the
re-engineering of the Muslim mind, in conjunction with
the redrawing of the maps of the area in conformity
with the 'Greater Middle East Project'. As it is also
one's right to raise other question marks around the
relationship between these activities and the
suggestions put forward by the Rand Corporation in its
report, on dismantling Islam and reconstituting it
under the title of 'Civil and Democratic Islam'
especially as some of these suggestions have found
expression in the activities we have already seen,
either in their secularist origins or the replacement
of new personalities and leadership in place of the
existing ones, or in the attack on traditional,
conservative Islam, or in encouraging the Sufi trend.

It is also one's right to question the consequences of
the activities that have appeared in the Arab World of
late, in the form of some of the secularist centers and
organizations which have addressed Islamic matters and
have delved into changing the content of the religious
dialogue, amending the educational curricula and the
fabrication of a leadership of Islamic thought
committed to the secularist agenda.”

We comment upon it, briefly:

First: All of the information reported by Howaydy is
published openly to the American Public. American
society is open and thus imposes freedom of information
and forbids its suppression. Thus the announcement of
all these activities beforehand precludes any notion of
conspiracy.

Second: The traditionalist trend that Howaydy belongs
to is based on dividing the world into two camps, 1 –
The Domain of Islam, in which the Sunni sect
monopolizes Islam unto itself and accuses the Shiites
Muslims and the Sufis of apostasy and idol-worship and
oppresses the politically.

As it also oppresses the original inhabitants of the
land, People of the Book who have held on to the
religion of the fathers and grandfathers.

2 – The Domain of war. That comprises the countries
in the West.

They must be fought and forced to accept Islam. Their
culture is considered an ideological invasion and
explains the disasters that befall us as being caused
by the conspiracies of the West against us. That is
the background that gives rise to the articles of
Howaydy and his ilk. His article 'Dismantling Islam’
is proof of that. Indeed the title, 'Dismantling
Islam' indicates that he believes in monopolizing
Islam, such that any other Muslim is not entitled to
think or study outside of the boundaries that Howaydy
knows, otherwise he becomes a 'dismantler of Islam'.
The Americans who have entered Islam other than through
the Sunni sect, are not entitled to choose a way of
worship other than that of the traditionalists and what
the traditionalists found their forefathers doing,
otherwise they become 'dismantlers if Islam'. And as
usual, Howaydy does not bother to discuss the ideas of
those who disagree with him, because he is not an
expert in Islam and its study, and his knowledge of
Islam does not go beyond my personal knowledge of the
Island of Cuba; that is why he hastens to accuse us of
conspiring against Islam.

Third: Since 1977 I have been carrying on my shoulders
the burden of my project to reform the Muslims
peacefully with the Quran. As a result I was
subjected to a spectrum of persecution within Al-Azhar
and outside of it, from dismissal from the Al-Azhar
University, to prison to harassment by state security,
to exile twice. The first time I fled to America in
1988, after I was released from prison, Fahmy Howaydy
was the cause. He did not wish to attack me while I
was in prison and unable to defend myself and while I
was being attacked by tens of pens accusing me of
rejecting the traditions of the Prophet. Howaydy
waited till after I left prison terrified, to launch a
vicious attack upon me under the title, 'The
Traditions, between Fabrication and Disrespect.' He
filled it with attacks upon my person, by name and
description, confirming that I am no longer in the pale
of Islam with all he could muster in the way of
religious pronouncements. On the following day, I
met, by accident, some old friends who are members of
(Islamist) groups. I saw the fear in the face of one;
he advised me, for the sake of our long friendship, to
drop out of sight because Howaydy's article had put my
life squarely in danger. Other warnings signs came
from colleagues at Al-Azhar and traditionalists who are
honest.

I had sent Howaydy a response defending myself, with a
copy to Al-Ahram, but the response was not published.
I was thus forced to escape with my life to America,
where I remained ten months until the effect of
Howaydy's article subsided; then I returned.

My intellectual project confirms, by means of the
Quran, that Islam is the religion of justice,
democracy, tolerance, peace, freedom of belief and
human rights, and the God Almighty sent Muhammad as a
mercy to mankind, not to fight them to force religion
upon them and to split the world into two camps. He,
may He be praised, created us brethren, of one mother
and of one father, and that He made us peoples and
tribes that we might know each other, not to fight, and
that the most honored among us, at God, is the most
righteous. This will be determined on the Day of
Resurrection, not now, so that some of us do not feign
righteousness to walk all over us in the name of
religion. God Almighty decreed for us and for the
People of the Book different laws that we might compete
in good works, not to compete in prejudice and sin.

And based upon this type of thinking, I went to work,
after my return to Egypt, with Farag Foda until he was
killed by Fahmy Howaydy's pronouncements, then I worked
with human rights organizations and participated with
The Ibn Khaldoun Center in its struggle for
enlightenment and its projects for reform, including
the project to reform education in Egypt and other
projects. In all this, Howaydy's articles kept
hounding us inciting state security as well as the
terrorists against us until the dictatorship in Egypt
shut down the Ibn Khaldoun Center and arrested Dr.
Saad ed Deen Ibrahim and imprisoned some of my friends
who subscribe to the Quran alone. So once again I had
to escape to America in October, right at the peak of
the anti-Islamic wave that occurred after the attacks
of September 11th.

My intellectual project addressed America, in English,
in defense of Islam, elucidating the contradiction
between it and the type of extremist thinking that
produced Bin Laden. And I always used to sent my
research and my biography to be published on the
Internet and to the intellectuals of America, all of
which helped to stem the wave of animosity to Islam,
and to redirect the accusation to Bin Laden's terrorist
sect alone. Then then came to know what they began to
call 'moderate Islam'. My research attracted the
attention of Dr. Pipes whom they accuse of animosity to
Islam and the Muslims though now he writes that which
shows his respect for Islam and its civilization but he
is against, like myself, armed extremism.

Indeed he is engaged in a debate with those who still
accuse Islam as a religion, and do not differentiate
between it and terrorism. Through his intellectual
influence and his constant efforts, he has caused many
to change their views. Naturally, this will not cause
the traditionalist, Wahhabist organizations to accept
him unless and until he follows their religion, and
that will never, by the Grace of God, happen.

Co-operation between us against extremism and its
terrorist culture was necessary.

They want to defend their country, and I want to defend
my religion.

Fourth: America follows the Quranic rule that, “there
shall be no compulsion in religion”. There are in
America, by Howaydy's own admission, 1586 religious
groupings, of which 700 are non-traditional. This
means that everyone in America is free to believe in
whatever he believes or whatever he believes not.
The extremists, the followers of Bin Laden, are the
first to take advantage of this American religious
freedom. They expanded their activities, establishing
new mosques, establishing control over existing ones,
buying up churches and turning them into mosques.

They control about 80% of the mosques which number
approximately 1,200 on American soil. They curse
America day and night in the name of Islam, in their
sermons and their prayers and their publications taking
exploiting American tolerance and American donations of
the houses of worship.

There are tens of groups that indulge in these
activities and defend them and blackmails American
policy to the extent of declaring themselves sole
legitimate representatives of the Islam and the Muslims
in America, and enter the White House, invited as such.
It is well known that there is not a single “Muslim”
country whose sons, or a minority therein enjoy such
liberty. But the freedom that his extremist brethren
enjoy in their war on America, upon her soil, is not
enough for Howaydy, for it upsets him that there are
Muslims in America of the Shiite and Sufi persuasions
that are not yet involved in Wahabbism.

Fifth: America is waging a war declared after the
aggression of September 11th. This shows who the
conspirator is, who sends missionaries and soldiers to
the “House of War” abusing American freedom and
American openness. America discovered, after September
11th that extremism had wrested control of most mosques
and “Islamic” schools as well as of the American Muslim
community. She is thus not fighting only Bin Laden,
but also his followers in the American heartland and
the kind of thinking to which he adheres and which
dominates the minds of millions of American Muslims.
If America were to use the methods of the Arab leaders,
she would close these mosques and execute their clergy
and incarcerate their propagators and ban their
thinking and confiscate their publications.

She would not have needed an emergency law since she is
in a state of war with an invisible enemy who uses
psychological warfare and converts the ordinary
religious young man into a bomb walking on two legs,
who destroys himself and others. There will be, on
American soil, millions of candidates if Wahaabi
incitement continues to wash the brains of the Muslim
youth in the mosques and the schools in the name of
Islam. If America were prejudiced against Islam, she
would have chosen that solution and closed all the
mosques accusing Islam of being the religion of
terrorism basing itself on the Wahhabi contention that
they monopolize Islam and speak in its name.

American civility, however, chose the hard way; so
President Bush affirmed the truism that Islam is indeed
the religion of peace, and invited the heads of Wahabi
“Islamic” organizations to the White House to try to
get them to lean towards the right way. Thus instead
of war against Islam itself and instead of resorting to
violence, the solution was to be a peaceful one, to
reform the Muslims, both in America and in the Arab
Lands into what they perceive to be moderate Islam, or
into true Islam, as I have been saying.

Howaydy resents America her religious freedom and her
right to defend herself peaceably on her soil; he sees
that as the dismantling of Islam and a conspiracy
necessitating, and says, inciting against us, at the
end of the article, “It seems that Islam and the
Muslims in this situation are as though they have
become fair game for all and sundry to do with as they
please without limit, restriction or constraint. With
nothing to serve as deterrent to anyone who might take
liberties with them or insults them, their people are
without value or dignity. This compels us to add
another question to what has already been asked, about
who deserves the blame for all of this, those who
offended and insulted, or those who kept quiet and lay
low?”

Finally, I did escape with my life in fear of the
incitement of Fahmy Howaydy, and I see that, until now,
he is still pursuing me even in America; to where
should I escape after America? I have one way left to
protect my life, and that is to appeal to the United
Nations for refuge.

I present this article as an open complaint to the
United Nations, Against the Egyptian journalist Fahmi
Howaydy, the writer in Al-Ahram, the Egyptian
news-paper, and against whoever publishes his writings
that shall be deemed his accomplice in the crime of
inciting against my life and the lives of those who
call for reform.

My apologies for this interim answer. I will endeavoru
to have a more extended, (and coherent asnwer for you
soon).

Thomas J Haidon
Principal Legal & Policy Advisor- International
www.freemuslims.org
newzealand@freemuslims.org
64 4 27 425 0413

Haidon:
However, the Muslim response has proved to be equally reprehensible, full stop.

You aren't being serious are you?
Just a sample:

The Uniting Church hall in Auburn was set ablaze about 1.30am.

At nearby St Joseph the Worker Primary School shots were fired into cars and parents abused during a Christmas carols service.

Shall I continue?

Haidon,

"I can make no apologies for these verses and I will not attempt to. And I hate to use equivalency arguments with Judaism and Christianity, but non-believers are critcised in those religions as well. Many Muslims, as
you know take these ayah literally, and when augmented by Ahadith they are fortified."

From what I've seen, you've not really addressed the points. You are skating around them, trying to please all sides. You are also directing us to all kinds of sites that are only peripherally related to the points.

Address the points directly and concisely. All the questions and challenges in the original thread remain unanswered. Answering them should be easy if what you are saying about (most of) the Koran is true.

What is the good interpretation for the insults toward disbelievers such as "worst beasts in Allah's sight"? What is the good interpretation for making 'disbelief' the worst crime? What about 'never befriend the disbelievers' and 'sever family ties with the disbelievers'? What is the good interpretation of the Koran's general policy (for Muslims' conduct) of being 'harsh against the disbelievers but merciful to believers'?

You cannot simply waive a magic wand of interpretation, arguing that "worst beast" means "fine upstanding citizen," or that "never befriend" means "generally it's okay to make friends with." You also cannot just say that you acknowledge the problems, and leave it for some future date. The future date will never arrive. The basic demonization and the hatred and social apartheid policies of the Koran run all through it, across all kinds of circumstances.

Face it Haidon, the structure is not worth all the time and expense of salvaging. Take the necessary security precautions for yourself and your family (which you must now do anyway), and go all the way, like Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina, etc.

All Haidon is doing is running interference, nothing more.