D. C. Watson comments on the North Qarolina Qur'an qourtroom qontroversy:
In what appears to be a setback in yet another attempt by Islamists in the United States to insinuate Islam into the fabric of this country, a North Carolina Superior Court Judge has decided to dismiss a lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union to allow Muslims to swear on a Qur’an while taking the oath to tell the truth while on the witness stand.
http://news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051208/NEWSREC0101/51208007http://news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051206/NEWSREC0101/512060314/1001/NEWSREC0201
From the story:“In throwing out the case, Superior Court Judge Donald L. Smith decided that no controversy existed because the plaintiff was still able to affirm she could truthfully testify despite not being allowed to swear on the Qur’an”, attorney Seth Cohen said.“The plaintiffs in the case were the American Civil Liberties Union of North Carolina and Greensboro Muslim Syidah Mateen, who appeared as a witness in a domestic violence protection order hearing but was not allowed to take an oath on the Qur’an as she preferred. The defendant was the state of North Carolina because the plaintiffs were asking to clarify a state law referring to someone laying his hands on the “Holy Scriptures."
“Guilford Senior Resident Superior Court Judge W. Douglas Albright and Guilford Chief District Court Judge Joseph E. Turner believed an oath on the Qur’an is not a legal oath based on their interpretation of that law.”
Should the Qur’an be permitted in American courts, or in the courts of any democratic nation, to be sworn upon to tell the truth?
Qur‘an 16:106: “Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful penalty.”
Qur’an 8:30: And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah also plots, and Allah is the best of plotters.
Qur’an 3:27 “Let not the believers take the disbelievers for friends rather than believers. And whoever does this has no connection with Allah unless it is done to guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully. And Allah cautions you against his retribution. And to Allah is the eventual coming."More text from the Qur’an being taken out of context? Feel free to judge for yourself. While you decide, please keep in mind that the beheadings, stonings, and limb amputations that are accessible for viewing online are also prescribed in the Qur’an. Prescriptions that continue to be filled.
Should the Koran be in American courts? No!
Should the Koran be in American Standards? Yes!
DC,
Always a pleasure reading your work. Thanks for posting it and thanks to the JW team for all your work.
--
Muslims in America need to be put on notice.
The twisted beliefs of their so-called "religion" WILL NOT be integrated into American law and life.
If they don't like it, then get out!!!!!
Koran in American Standards-swirling and swirling until finally they disappear into the sewer pipe.
I agree that it has no place, however, what is the likelihood that a Muslim will feel the need to tell the truth if they swear on a Bible? Granted, they already believe that they can lie to infidels w/out consequence, but would swearing on the Koran stop this? Or would they still feel it's OK to lie to infidels whether or not they swore on a Koran??
Redshirt, them telling the truth when faced with being expected to tell the truth is when they don't tell the truth, no matter what they swear on. They aren't forced to swear on a Bible, they can just put up their hand and affirm that they'll tell the truth, which they won't.
Again, I am not arguing for them, I'm just wondering how binding they feel either swearing on a Bible or affirmations are.
Sure, they don't have to swear on a Bible. They can just make an affirmation. Anyone can do that if they don't feel comfortable swearing on the Bible. I'm not sure that I would want to if it were me. HOWEVER, do Muslims feel compelled to tell the truth if they are making an affirmation? From what I've read here and in Robert Spencer's books, there isn't much that would compel them to tell the truth when dealing with non-Muslims. Why would making an affirmation be such a binding thing for them? It seems to me that they would consider it a joke and then say whatever they feel like saying.
Asylum inmate - I just rered your email and I guess that I took it a wrong way. However, maybe the answer would then be if they don't feel compelled to ever tell the truth, maybe we need to keep the Koran out AS WELL AS their testimony. If they are notoriously weak witnesses, disregard any testimony from them. Either that, or do what they do and require at least two of them for every one of us...
Obviously this wouldn't happen, but it's interesting to think about it.
Redshirt, Mr. Spencer's book is right, mate. They don't feel obgligated to speak the truth when dealing with all of us idolators. They are Allahs zombie warriors, and will not tell truths if it jeopardizes Muslimhood.
To them, they live in enemy terrotry. If they were to swear on the koran in court, they would be permitted to lie under oath, because being under oath is being under compulsion, mate.
Redshirt, all is good. No worries. This whole koran issue is another go at Islamizing America, that is all it is, and I'm glad that the Judge threw this underhanded case out.
American Standard has a new toilet called the Champion. It can handle 20 plus golf balls or 5 qurans in a single flush.
Muslims are allowed to lie to "infidels" so it does not matter if they swear to tell the truth on the Koran. A prosecutor made that point recently in saying that the defendant a Muslim "scholar" would lie to the jury and everyone in the court because his religion allowed him to.So if Muslims don't want to swear on the bible let them do what Marlon Brando (an atheist) did and refuse to place their hand on the bible when taking the oath.
In the UK Muslims are permitted to swear upon the Quran , as Christians are upon the Bible and Jews, hindus, Sikhs etc are upon there holy books. But of course the UK is a civilized nation - it is unrealistic to expect less civilized lands would follow suit.
Rumi, the Koran permits lying, and has no business in American courts. It is a contradictory book. One thing is for sure, lands become "less civilized" with higher Muslim populations, ask the French, the Swedes and the Danes.
As you state in your home page
"Dhimmitude is the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians. Dhimmis, "protected people," are free to practice their religion"
Yet Muslims are not free to practice theirs in your land - doing something (swearing on the Koran) innocous that hurts no body.Thus you demonstrate the superiority of islam in treating non-Muslims and giving them religous rights
Yet Muslims are not free to practice theirs in your land - doing something (swearing on the Koran) innocous that hurts no body.Thus you demonstrate the superiority of islam in treating non-Muslims and giving them religous rights
Posted by: rumi at December 9, 2005 01:01 PM
Oh, you mean that the hundreds of mosques in the US have been bulldozed? Well, this might turn out to be a good day after all.
The Koran should never be permitted into the American court system. Superiority of Islam? In Saudi Arabia they confiscate Bibles from Christians when they step off the plane, and Jews aren't permitted to set foot in the country. Sounds more inferior than superior.
Nice try.
Prickzilla - the Koran no one permits lying rather it condemns it strongly- you are getting confused with the Torah/Talmud
Jews May Lie to Non-Jews
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.
"The Koran should never be permitted into the American court system. Superiority of Islam? In Saudi Arabia they confiscate Bibles from Christians when they step off the plane, and Jews aren't permitted to set foot in the country. Sounds more inferior than superior."
There are 54 Muslim countries in the world 53 of which allow those things - yet you mention the ONE that doesnt !!! hilarious - says more about your prejudices focussing on 1 out of 54 muslim countries rather than the other 53!!!
Rumi, thank you for exposing yourself to everyone as a Jew hating troll, no run along and find a site where you can try to fool everyone with your dazzling brilliance, it won't work here. None of the following is found in the Torah.
Qur‘an 16:106: “Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful penalty.”
Qur’an 8:30: And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah also plots, and Allah is the best of plotters.
Qur’an 3:27 “Let not the believers take the disbelievers for friends rather than believers. And whoever does this has no connection with Allah unless it is done to guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully. And Allah cautions you against his retribution. And to Allah is the eventual coming."
Now run along, little one.
Rummi stop being a wanker, mate.
Just one of many good knocks in the head the ALCU is long overdue for. And on the right subject, too!
Oh don't be so intolerant.
I've got a copy of the Koran in my bathroom. It's a fine edition of the Shakir translation, my favorite. A very fancy book, indeed, with an embossed cover, the soft cloth-blend paper, it boasts all the better bookmaking features.
I flip through it when I'm on the throne. When I'm done, I take my United Airlines boxcutter also on the bath stand and excise a page, and then I...
Gee Rumi, you might have a point, if you didn't
consider a lying, murdering, pedophile to be a
Prophet of God.
It is not innocuous. Letting Nazis swear on Mein Kampf wouldn't be inoccuous either.
Don't you have some teenage Christian girl to behead somewhere?
"Don't you have some teenage Christian girl to behead somewhere?"
-- posted by American
Man, that is so way unfair, American.
According to the Noble Koran, they're supposed to *marry* little girls, not behead them. Aisha!
SAAS SAAS SAAS SAAS SAAS SAAS SAAS SAAS SAAS SAAS SAAS SAAS SAAS SAAS
"You have indeed in Allah’s Messenger an excellent pattern of conduct for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and who engages much in the praise of Allah."
-- posted by God in Koran 33:21, The Coalition
I have several thoughts on this... First, while the UK allows multiple religions' scriptures to be used in a courtroom oath, the stereotype comes to mind of them being more polite and deferential to tradition.
On the other hand, if you open up the door to any "sacred" scripture in the US courtroom... where will it end? "Dianetics"? ... The Yellow Pages? ... "Everybody Poops"? (Yes, that's an actual book.)
Thought #2: If Muslims claim to worship the same God as the "People of the Book," what's wrong with "The Book," which, after all, contains the Ten Commandments (including that pesky eighth one)? They think Moses was a Muslim, after all...
Thought #3: I thought they *couldn't* swear on the Quran, due to some verse that called that practice gauche. So take the "affirm" option, and get on with the court proceedings.
Shinoliite, very well done. Good points, mate.
While I don't have the way with words Unbridled does, I too say good job man.
The Koran only belongs in American bathrooms, not courtrooms.
To Rumi. You call the US uncivilized because Mohammedans are not allowed to swear on the Koran. Let me tell you, you have a lot to learn or you are utterly stupid. Show me one civilized Islamic country in the whole world, just one, where one has half of the freedoms that we take for granted in the US, are enjoyed by its citizens?
The Mohammedan countries are the most depraved, unjust,illiterate in the world. No wonder all the Mohammedans are trying to creep into Western Christian countries. Take a look at all the Asylum seekers 99% are Mohammedans. I don't ever see a line of people trying to get into Mohammedan countries - that is saying something. . Mohammedans live like human beings once they creep into western Christians countries.
Hilarious! LOL!
A Mohammedan (rumi) attempts to turn logic into mo-gic!
Another gem:
Islamic science using Einsteins formula to "prove" Koranic stupidity:
http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=955
"I swear to tell takiyah, complete takiyah, and nothing but takiyah to these damned infidels. So help me Allah..."
Iranian-born Columnist Amir Tahiri defined the theological principle of Takiyah as "hiding one's true beliefs to confuse adversaries. Its political version is known as Kitman (dissimulation)"
This decision to ban the Quran in the American courtroom is not only a blow to the ACLU but also to CAIR.
AMEN!
rumi, when you find that missing page from the Koran, you know the one that says "Thou shalt not bear false witness..." you can apply again.
Just where are the missing pages, and which are the abrogated verses that have been replaced 'by better ones?'
Questions, questions...
Rumi the Qur'an forbids lying by Muslims to save their own skin. It simply condemns a muslim to hell fire if he lies to save himself from being butchered if he commits theft, adultery or murder.
However the same Qur'an permits, no it demands, that a Muslim lie to the kuffir, especially if by not lying he does harm to the ummah and Islam.
Lying in the struggle for Allah (Jihad) is not only permissible but required, but no Muslim can be guilty of lying to the kufr, especially in Dar al Harb.
And yet, despite the Qur'anic prohibition against lying.. Muslims still lie, self preservation is a primal human instinct.
On topic, the ACLU causes me consternation, primarily because the ACLU is mostly Jewish lawyers.
I can understand and defend Free Speech defenses, but swearing on the Qur'an. Why doesn't anyone object when an atheist has to swear on a book they don't believe in (Bible or Qur'an).
Shi'ite. I'm an atheist and I don't mind swearing on a bible, pledging allegiance under god, wishing Merry Christmas, singing Christmas carrols, and one Nation under god, or in God we trust doesn't bother me a bit.
What bothers me is that all of this sets a deadly precedent that can be turned against us, should the Islamic population reach critical mass (about 10 to 13%) and they get control of government and want to change all references of God to Allah, or do other things that eventually Islamicize the Republic.
Not far fetched, look at their mischief and they are only 1%, if that, of the population.
Nariz,
In Australia you have a choice.
You can choose whether you want to swear on a bible. If youre an atheist you can just swear and thats good enough.
Is that not so in the US?
Forgot to mention:
Same in Europe!
Very simple here folks...
The ACLU fights to take the Bible out of the courts, yet fights to put the Koran in the courts.
"Rumi the Qur'an forbids lying by Muslims to save their own skin. It simply condemns a muslim to hell fire if he lies to save himself from being butchered if he commits theft, adultery or murder.
However the same Qur'an permits, no it demands, that a Muslim lie to the kuffir, especially if by not lying he does harm to the ummah and Islam."
Nariz you fail to bring one bit of evidence from the Quran for your claims which suggest that possibly you are the liar
"And yet, despite the Qur'anic prohibition against lying.. t."
exactly : the Quran forbids lying.
"What bothers me is that all of this sets a deadly precedent that can be turned against us, should the Islamic population reach critical mass (about 10 to 13%) and they get control of government and want to change all references of God to Allah, or do other things that eventually Islamicize the Republic."
this is insane - how can 10-13% of the population control the governemnt in a democratic society? How would Muslims get control of the governemnt when there isnt a single Muslim in position of power anywhere in the western world
No one is saying a non-muslim has to swear on the Quran!!!
Qur‘an 16:106: “Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful penalty.”
Yes this refers to renoucing islam by the tonuge in order to save ones life from disbleievers who would kill you otherwise
Qur’an 8:30: And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah also plots, and Allah is the best of plotters.
Yes Allah those who seek to do evil Allah is against them
Qur’an 3:27 “Let not the believers take the disbelievers for friends rather than believers. And whoever does this has no connection with Allah unless it is done to guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully. And Allah cautions you against his retribution. And to Allah is the eventual coming."
a more accurate translation
" Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliyâ (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allâh in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allâh warns you against Himself (His Punishment)[4], and to Allâh is the final return."
translating it as "friends" is incorrect as it is not forbidden to have non-Muslims as freinds and it is even allowed to marry them
rumi, why can't believers take disbelievers as helpers or supporters?
Ya Rumi, no Islamic scholar has ever translated the Quran for Westerners before....So we're all a buncha dummys and should take your taqiyya and run with it as the truth, huh?
This is just more of the twisting, "taken out of context" bullcrap that you zombies throw up at the wall to see what sticks.
Too bad for you that when you watch the news, Islam at its finest is killing, maiming, bombing, kidnapping, dishonor killings, and slicing female genitalia.
If this is what you're riding, then go to your local imam so he can pat you on the head, and then run along.
Rumi sez:
"translating it as "friends" is incorrect as it is not forbidden to have non-Muslims as freinds and it is even allowed to marry them..."
"it is even allowed to marry them..."
Liar!
It is not "allowed" for infidels to marry a Mohammedan unless he/she converts/reverts to the blood-cult.
A Mohammedan is not 'allowed' to marry into another faith, that would make him an apostate, and what is that for you rumi?
The worst scum of the earth and all that other rubbish that Mo threatened the believers with!
Hi Sheik yer'mami (I love your name):
Actually, a Muslim man is allowed to marry a Christian or Jewish woman but not the other way around. Muslim women are only allowed to marry Muslim men but Muslim men can marry Christian or Jewish women provided these women no longer publicly practice their Faiths nor teach it to their children. Muslim men are even allowed to capture (i.e. rape) the wives of Christians or Jews who have not paid jizya or accepted dhimmitude.
Hindu, Buddhist, and other women are considered "polytheists" are suitable only to be slaves and their men are suitable only for slaughter unless they convert.
A Muslim woman faces death if she is found to have been "defiled" by sex with a non-Muslim but it is open season on our women for Muslim men. Such is this religion of Peace.
Provoslavni,
I thought my post made that quite clear.
Now its all yours, Rumi!