"The debate over how to deal with those who abandon their faith in Allah is growing more heated among Muslims. Jesuit Fr. Samir Khalil Samir, an Islamic studies scholar, analyzes the contending positions in a book on converts to Christianity." From Sandro Magister in Chiesa, with thanks to Tom Syseskey:
ROMA, November 30, 2005 – Life is by no means easy for Muslims who convert to the Christian faith. On the contrary; their very life may be in danger. In the Islamic countries, they are viewed as apostates from “the best community that God has established among men,” and are singled out for ostracism, which in some cases can amount to legal condemnation and even the death penalty.Even in the West, they run a great risk. A clandestine existence is the norm for most of them. They must conceal themselves from their community of origin, and they do not always find the support they were expecting from the Catholic Church. There is a widespread tendency within the Church not to encourage conversion from Islam to Christianity – ostensibly for reasons of “dialogue,” but in reality out of fear of the reactions.
But on a number of occasions, appeals for help have come from converts from Islam who, after their baptism, have felt that they were abandoned. In an interview with Italian television two years ago, then-cardinal Joseph Ratzinger said: “I know, and this pains me deeply. It is the drama of our Christian consciousness, which is unsure of itself. Naturally, we must respect the Islamic states and their religion, but we must also ask for freedom of conscience for those who wish to become Christian, and we must assist these persons courageously, if we really are sure that they have found the right answer. We must not leave them alone. Everything possible must be done so that they can experience, in liberty and peace, what they have found within the Christian religion.”
To lift the veil on the lives of these new converts, a book has been released in recent days: “I cristiani venuti dall’islam [From Islam to Christianity].” The authors are Giorgio Paolucci, the managing editor of “Avvenire,” the newspaper of the Italian bishops’ conference, and Camille Eid, from Lebanon, a specialist in the Arab and Islamic world, who has recently written – among other things – a survey of the Christians in Iran, which was published by the Venice patriarchate’s magazine “Oasis” and reprinted last November 11 by www.chiesa.
Read it all.
A Jesuit islamic scholar? I had to re-read that a few times to believe it. Finally! To learn that the clergy is seriously examining the texts of the RoP and showing signs that they comprehend the danger is promising indeed. May they catch the eye of the broader pulpit.
Hold on a moment. If Islam really is the fastest growing religion, why are Apostates even a significant issue? All the new converts should be making up the numbers. Something doesn't add up.
miira:
If this scholar's mind is as finely trained as some of the more noteworthy grads of a Jesuit education (although both were politicians and not clerics, P. Trudeau and Rene Levseques come to my mind as great examples), his opinions will be very interesting.
"two years ago, then-cardinal Joseph Ratzinger said:...it is the drama of our Christian consciousness, which is unsure of itself. Naturally, we have to respect the Islamic states and their religion..."
Why is that? Why do we have to respect Islamic states and their religion when if Joseph Ratzinger is really the Catholic her purports to be, knowing that people are losing their lives and their souls to an ideology that can only bring them to total destruction. Joseph Ratzinger, as Pope Benedict, has an obligation to stand up against evil, not get into touchy-feeley, waste of time dialogue with the demon possessed leaders of this bitter enemy of freedom and religious choice.
If Pope St. Pius X were here, he wouldn't be dialoging and worrying about whether he was hurting the feelings of the enemy sitting across the table when he told them no. He would have a called it like it is and sent them home, admonished, to think about it. He had no fear. And if Pope Benedict doesn't have the stomach for the fight and is not willing to tell the whole truth about Islam and realize the ramifications for his flock and for the whole world, then he needs to get out of the way.
Jesus said he would vomit out of his mouth those who are lukewarm. Dearest God, please raise up for us a leader who will tell it like it is and not crumble in the face of overwhelming odds.
"In the Islamic countries, they are viewed as apostates from “the best community that God has established among men,” and are singled out for ostracism, which in some cases can amount to legal condemnation and even the death penalty."
-- from the article above
Surely anyone who leaves "the best community that God has established among men" need not be punished by the members of that community. Leaving it, surely, should be punishment enough. Let Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Ali Sina and Ibn Warraq alone -- by leaving Islam, they are of course suffering enough anguish. And so are all those former Muslims now suffering, now enduring, the anguish of no longer being members of "the best community that God has established among men." That must be punishment enough. Allah, no doubt, is punishing those apostates even now, for think of their agenbite of inwit, their sleepless nights, their inability to think properly, their emotional turmoil. And what will happen after their death -- oh, brividi just to think about. Why should mere men wish to add to the punishment of Allah -- isn't that presumptuous?
Or have I missed something?
How can the Church abandon any of its flock, particularly those who have risked so much to embrace Christianity? And why does the Church show deference to Islam? Courtesy and good manners, of course. But deference? For instance, why do so many Churchmen refer to Mohammed as the Prophet Mohammed? Surely Mohammed has absolutely no status as a prophet from a Christian point of view. And there was the unfortunate incident of Pope John Paul II kissing the Koran. I believe such gestures do not create goodwill so much as contempt. The Church must use its moral authority to protect its own and to pursue its ministry. Failure to do so increases hardship on those who follow their conscience.
Hugh,
Yes. Your mom and dad probably weren't first cousins - a tradition going back for generations.
I may have linked to this article sometime in the past, but no matter, here it is again. Saturday Night magazine in Canada published an interesting article last year titled "Among the Unbelievers" about apostates in canada. Here is the link:
http://www.saturdaynight.ca/feature/article.cfm?listing_id=27&pg=1
Saturday Night has a long and honourable history in Canada but has gone out of business several times. It has recently been distributed with the National Post as a monthly but sadly, it has just closed down. Too bad - but then it's been resurected before - hope over experience.
"... . Naturally, we must respect the Islamic states and their religion..."
-- then Cardinal Ratzinger
To what "nature" was Ratzinger reffering?
It is every good person's duty to disrepect Islam, and the states that it has ruined.
I can understand that a religious leader is in no position to badmouth another religion, or fake religion, but better to say nothing on this subject if you can't speak realistically.
I think he's just being pragmatic about it, that's all. PC is just too engrained at the moment for "the public" to be able to handle anything rougher. And you know there's always those types just waiting for the chance to lynch the Church over the slightest misstep. Really, if the "dirty work" can be done behind the scenes, why risk opening yourself up to another front, especially as Catholicism seems to be in the good books since JPII's death?
"Hold on a moment. If Islam really is the fastest growing religion, why are Apostates even a significant issue? All the new converts should be making up the numbers. Something doesn't add up."
-- posted by Balrog
Don't forget, Balrog, that when Mohammed was setting up this Self-Perpetuation Machine he named Surrender, he had no assurances of success.
It's easy to sit back now as an Armchair Infidel drinking your Budweiser and criticizing the oddities of Islam, but things were tough in the olden days.
Back then Mohammed and his motley band of Moslems had to ride camels through the hot sun and sword fight with Jews and pagans to put vittles on the table. He needed every fighter he could get, so slashing a wobbly's throat was strictly must-do.
Now, yes, infidels not only lay down at the snap of a finger but will also fund you with the Welfare, but any Old School Moslem can tell you what poor Mohammed and his acolytes had to suffer to put the Modern Moslem Man in the driver's seat.
Hogwash, pi$$poor excuse, pure rationalization, another form of denial.. PC is not at all engrained, all it takes is some leadership,leaders with real stones between their legs, and PC will disappear.
The problem is cozening, pragmatism, currying favor with a significant force that has on it's side billions in people quadrillions in dollars, and about 1/3 of the Earths geography, and 5/8's or more of the worlds oil.
None of this has to do with PC, but whining about PC lets people off the hook, otherwise they would have to confront their role models, hero's, idols and leaders as craven, ignoble, traitors to western culture.
The sooner everyone gets over their denial and stops rationalizing and confronts the reality that instead of being led, in politics and faith, we are being misled by false shepherds and Judas Goats, the sooner we can embark on a path of recovery.
I think the Pope is just trying to tell Catholics to stay away in a nice manner. If he were adequetly pushed, he would certianly take a harsher stance. For example, the recent statement against homosexuality.
One of the signs of the apocolypse is the Pope being run out of Rome. If Europe becomes a Muslim continent by 2100 or sooner as Orriana Fallaci suggested, that prophecy may become a reality. However, I hope and pray that Catholics as well as other religions in Europe take a stand.
I recall last summer, I was sitting with two female colleagues of mine having a coffee in the park as we all took a break. I thought they were both muslims but one pleasant company while the other would say thinhgs which always forced me to retort, however wait until what happened next.
I said to the one with the pleasant attitude (we'll call her Sabina) "You are really open minded for a muslim", to which she replied "I'm not, my family and I are Christians". To which I asked "So how come the Islamic names", the reply I got was "Gorkhali, to protect ourselves from the obvious persecution of Christians in Pakistan, we keep Islamic names."
Now at this point Miss Al-Jihad who was also with us went ballistic and the arguement that ensued only made my coffee all that more interesting as I watched and listened and was educated about the plight of Christians in Pakistan, the so-called ally in the war on terrorism (That'll be the day when Pakistan shoots itself for being a terrorist).
About the Hindus in Pakistan.....endangered species.
-Cheers
Jai Nepal, Jai Mahakali, Ayo Gorkhali!
"Naturally, we have to respect the Islamic states and their religion..." said Cardinal Ratzinger.
Why do we have to respect them? Because our dominant PC culture tells we have to.
Our PC culture has that much power. It can tell Bush, Blair and Howard and even the Pope what to say, and whom to respect.
The Bible says to love the sinner, but hate the sin.
If the sinners are the Muslims, we have no business loving the sin: Islam.
Asking us to respect Islam is like asking the mother of a drug-addict son to respect the drug.
It is Islam that makes Muslims become fanatical, filling their heads with hatred, delusions of power and eventually willingness to murder.
I think Pope Ratzinger is compromising too much there.
If you're gonna be an apostate, you gotta profess you new found misfaith! Grab a friend, family member or random heathen, head down to you local watering hole, and say the following:
"Allah is no god, and Muhammad was a delusional, warmongering putz"
Celebrate with adult beverages and pork rinds!
I call that the "adahahs" ;)
Please, there has to be a better name for the pledge. Any help?
The church discourages conversion of Muslims? Which church?
We Evangelicals would love to see a Los vom Islam into our camp. Our big concern is that Muslims see the Gospel as an open door to enter, not a club over their heads.
Rocky said: "It is Islam that makes muslims become fanatical,filling their heads with hatred.....eventually willingness to murder"
Yes Indeed! What a solid truth itis. Some people attribute the fanatical behaviour of muslims to the Arab race ,who are Semitic. They argue that these people by nature are 'crude',due to their desert dwelling envionments,and you should not judge 'Islam' as fanatical, from the behaviour of these Arabs. If that is the case ,how come the Pakistanies,who are non-arab,but the desendants of hindus of India, become so cruel and fanatical as to kill so many Lononers who gave them refuge,,and still killing innocent local pakistani christians and hindus? As far as I know their forfathers-Hindus- are peace loveing meek people(exept for the minority called Brahmins). Take the case of Indonesians-They were Mainly non-violent Buddhists before their conversion.But see now -They chop off the heads of innocent school girls like coconuts- just because they were christians! My question is, will the pakistanies and indonesians would have done these horrible crimes,if they remained in their original religions-Hindusism,and budhisam? NEVER. NEVER and NEVER. So the real culprit is... their religion they embarced-ISALM.
Ali Sina of faithfreedom.org says that Islam is like an balloon, and the "needle" of reason and humainism can pop/destroy it. I am inclined to agree. It is obvious why the threat of persecution and death must be held over the heads of Muslims - because they would leave otherwise.
All free-thinking, humane people should understand how shaky the position of Islam is. Without a constant threat, to infidels and its own adherents, it will dissipate. By casting light upon the problem of Islam's penalty for apostasy, we hasten its demise, or radical reformation.
Quijybo
Actually Ratzinger was correct, although perhaps he should have chosen his words more carefully. It is the deepest respect to see a person as they really are and not as we wish them to be.
We should respect and deeply LOVE each and every Muslim by inviting them out of the oppression of Islam and into the Truth!
Jesus Saves while Muhammed decays.