Father in Pakistan Kills His 4 Daughters

Another case of Islamically rationalized deception/mental reservation (kitman).

Having a daughter who marries for love--that's "dishonourable". Murdering all four of your daughters to prevent them from marrying for love--that's "honourable".

It's all about control, isn't it? Their status quo (as well as their status within the commnnity) hinges on their ability to bend the wimminfolk to their will. I would suggest, however, that someone who takes such drastic steps as the father (now ex-father) in Pakistan is suffering from a personal as well as a community derangement.

I have to agree with derangement, a chemical inbalance in the brain, the idiots are so inbred that you can not hope to get anyone of any normal intelect or logical thinking abilities.

How can you even consider trying to talk to representatives of a religion which can be used to justify this?

If they were headhunters from the highlands of New Guinea we would still be appalled if this occurered there. New Guinean headhunters themselves would be appalled. Even the most barbarian of barbarian societies could not justify an act like this. I do believe that the Aztecs not exactly renowned for letting a little blood ruin their day, would also have been grossly appalled by this act.

If it was a "once only" you could plead insanity.
But it is merely one of a very long list stretching back to the Dark Ages. I wonder what the mother of the girls had to say about it?
Anyone want to make a bet about it being the "party line"?
You can be sure their brothers knew that they deserved it?

I just cannot see what sort of a religion can make a father go out an butcher his daughters
: children, your own children are more precious than life, and certainly "honour".

I watched a video of a stoning recently. The gleefull chortling of the crowd was in total contrast to the blood spattered sheets.

What planet do these people live on?

Maybe we have a subspecies Homis Islamis and it is time to weed the garden of eden.

Does anyone know if there is a debate about these sort of killings in the Muslim world, anywhere? Surely even this man, after the bloodlust has passed, is feeling some remorse. Killing ones own children is a serious derangement of the simple human drive to have one's offspring survive. Is anyone questioning this sort of "honor", anywhere in the benighted lands of Islam?

Much has been made on these forums about finding ways to divide and demoralize the Islamic world. This type of crime seems to be the perfect "thin end of the wedge". As we all know, the real pillar of Islam is oppression of women. Shaming Muslims about this could be very effective.

I believe the the liberation from Islam will not be a political event, but rather 1.2 billion personal ones. Islam's perpetual state of war against women is its weakest point, one worthy of our attention.

Quijybo

Was there not a some UN law that did not pass to ban "honour killings"! this is a no brainer, l am appalled of even the suggestion that it would be used in any country and not condemmed!!

Question: the honor kilings (flamings) of young women in India that got a lotta play in the MSM a few years back, were these cases Moslem or Hindu, or both?

This is a very sad event to read about on Christmas. On reflection, a father with a 25 year old single daughter in Pakistan is unusual. Why didn't the father "arrange" a suitable marriage years ago? Killing the pre-teen siblings to boot also reflects on his failures or his own perceived future failure as a father to those girls. Maybe he was asking too high a bride price for his daughters, and failing to strike a bargain with daughter number one, he decided to "cut" his losses. It's hard to get inside the mind of a person like Nazir Ahmad.

Quijybo
Muslimahs only shrug and and say,its not Islam,Islam does not permit such a crime,then go back to demanding the right to wear hijabs

My comment to this hideous crime can be found here
http://www.fomi.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=18942&highlight=#18942

Let's take a look at what the official view of honor killing in Islam is -

Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hanooti, member of the North American Fiqh Council:
"Honor killing could be a wrong cultural tradition. It is unjust and inhumane action. The murderer of that type deserves punishment."

Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:
"There is no such concept in Islam that is called “honor killing”. Islam holds every soul in high esteem and does not allow any transgression upon it. It does not allow people to take the law in their own hands and administer justice, because doing so will be leading to chaos and lawlessness. Therefore, based on this, Islam does not permit such killings."

Sheikh `Atiyyah Saqr, former head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee, states:
"Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93)"

Your quoted article states:
"He (Ahmad) told us today that he has killed his daughters, and we arrested him,"

The Pakistani authorities arrested him for his crime of murdering his daughters. Just as the authorities in the US or UK would have arrested him.

"Those who claim that this sort of thing has nothing to do with Islam and the Sharia imperative have yet to explain why the overwhelming majority of such cases happen in an Islamic context."

They do not only occur in Islamic countries. Take a look at Pakistan's neighbour India. An estimated 50 million women and female children are "missing" from Indias population.

Amongst Indias Hindu & Sikh community honour killing exists. But they go further too. Women accused of adultery are disfigured with acid or condemned to be burned alive. If the dowry from the brides family is insufficient, the grooms family burns the bride alive. If a man dies, his wife is sometimes burned alive on his funeral pyre. If she is lucky to live is considered a curse and may never be seen in public. Infanticide with newborn girls is common. Prenatal determination and abortion services are advertised with slogans such as, "Spend 500 rupees now and save 50,000 rupees later", referring to the cost of an abortion in relation to having to pay a dowry. Can we assume that India the home to Hinduism, has such harsh treatment of women because of it's religion? No, any such assertion would be completely false.

If that isn't enough. In Indonesia, generally believed to be the country with the largest Muslim population, honor killings are unknown, as also in Malaysia and parts of West Africa with majority-Muslim populations and many other Islamic countries like Bangladesh.

This macabre practice is rooted in the cultural psyche of some people in some middle-eastern countries, afghanistgan, and pakistan. It is also a by product of underdeveloped countries with an uneducated populace with tribal cultural roots. The fact that these people might migrate to Europe doesn't eradicate their cultural biases.

If you would like to protest against honour killings, and see tougher sentences against murderers hiding behind the pretense of honour killing, then I am in absolute agreement with you.

If you want to claim that Islam condones honour killing then that is a blatant lie which you may want to believe is true, but isn't. This would also contradict rising protest from within Islamic countries that these crimes occur against such barbarous acts.

APF-- I think the cases of burnings were a more, um, ecumenical deal.

It just occurred to me that this was also a halal slaughter, right? Cutting the jugular and leaving the target to bleed to death? Unconnected to Islam, my foot.

Most of the honor killings in Islamic countries seem to be knife-oriented. Hands-on, I guess.

"APF-- I think the cases of burnings were a more, um, ecumenical deal."

I'm sorry I don't get your point.

"It just occurred to me that this was also a halal slaughter, right? Cutting the jugular and leaving the target to bleed to death?"

Using the logic that that slitting of the throat makes the honour killing religiously motivated, automatically excludes murders which involve stabbing, poisoning, strangulation etc.

I've argued about incorrect association between honour killing and Islam many times. Most people eventually realise that there isn't a religious linkage, but it is a social problem within some Muslim countries. Just like blood-feudalism which still exists in the Middle East, parts of asia, Italy, and Eastern Europe.

The ones that continue to insist the religious linkage do so with no basis, but maintain their assertions based on deap seated hatred towards the religion. It's like trying to get an anti-semite to change their views.

Four potential islamic baby factories put out of business. How are they going to be "the world's fastest growing religion" if they keep doing this?

The dehumanization and subjugation of women and the over-all psychotic nature of islamic belief is why muslims are the usual perpetrators of this insanity.

Bedhouin-- I was in agreement with you that the burnings in India weren't a strictly Muslim affair.

However, recognizing the emergence of a preferred mode of killing doesn't cancel the motive of others carried out as honor killings.

To take another example, mafia killings are often associated with various rituals, like the "cement overshoes" that became notorious in the earlier part of the 20th century. However, the lack of a "classic" modus operandi didn't prevent the conviction of mob killers who got creative in other ways.

But did I come up with that observation out of a "deep-seated hatred" for Italians? Nope.

Bedhouin
It is Islam that we are focussing on here on this forum,so discuss islam,not India or Hindus
Now if I remember rightly,Sharia law allows moslims to follow traditions of the nations that a molsem may be in,as long as the tradition does not go against Islam.
Now shall we look at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3088828.stm
And what about that little incedent in Saudia ,the execution of Princess Mishaal bint Fahd bin Mohammed,and things ain,t changed that much since then

In Jordan, if a woman is afraid that her family wants to kill her, she can check herself into the local prison, but she can't check herself out, and the only person who can get her out is a male relative, who is frequently the person who poses the threat,"

Samia Imran is one of the most widely cited cases used to illustrate the vulnerability of women in a culture that turns a blind eye to such practices. The case's high profile no doubt arises from the fact that the murder took place in broad daylight, was abetted by the victim's mother, who was a doctor, and occurred in the office of Asma Jahangir, a prominent Pakistani lawyer and the UN reporter on extrajudicial, summary, or arbitrary executions.

In April 1999 Imran, a 28-year-old married woman seeking a divorce from her violent husband after 10 years of marriage, reluctantly agreed to meet her mother in a lawyers' office in Lahore, Pakistan. Imran's family opposed the divorce and considered her seeking a divorce to be shaming to the family's honor. Her mother arrived at the lawyer's office with a male companion, who immediately shot and killed Imran.

Imran's father, who was president of the Chamber of Commerce in Peshawar, filed a complaint with the police accusing the lawyers of the abduction and murder of Imran. The local clergy issued fatwas (religious rulings) against both women and money was promised to anyone who killed them.

The Peshawar High Court eventually threw out the father's suit. No one was ever arrested for Imran's death.

Imran's case received a great deal of publicity, but frequently honor killings are virtually ignored by community members. "In many cases, the women are buried in unmarked graves and all records of their existence are wiped out,"

The UN General Assembly adopted the Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women in 1993. Various UN agencies provide the following estimates:

In 1999, more than two-thirds of all murders in Gaza strip and West bank were most likely honor killings. In Jordan there are an average of 23 such murders per year.

Thirty-six honor crimes were reported in Lebanon between 1996 and 1998, mainly in small cities and villages. Reports indicate that offenders are often under 18 and that in their communities they are sometimes treated as heroes.

In Yemen as many as 400 honor killings took place in 1997. In Egypt there were 52 reported honor crimes in 1997.

In Bangladesh between 1996 and 1998 there was a four-fold increase in reported acid attacks from 47 to more than 200.

"In Jordan, if a woman is afraid that her family wants to kill her, she can check herself into the local prison, but she can't check herself out,and the only person who can get her out is a male relative."
-- posted by shiva

That's about all I need to know. Unbelievable. Almost.

DISLOYAL HARVARD DISLOYAL GEORGETOWN DISLOYAL USC DISLOYAL COLUMBIA

Shouldn't NOW be running 30-second TV spots on this Jordanian practice? That would help get the ball moving down the field. That is, if feminists actually stand for women's rights and not that vestigial antique called Marxism...

Bedhouin writes:
"The ones that continue to insist the religious linkage do so with no basis, but maintain their assertions based on deap seated hatred towards the religion. It's like trying to get an anti-semite to change their views."

No, the problem is that you're a liar and you expect us to lap up your falsehoods.

It's pretty clear that honor killing is
associated with islamic "culture". That it may be
associated with other cultures to a greater or
lesser degree is irrelevant, it sure as hell *is*
associated with cultures that practice islam.

Honor killings are practiced by mohammadans in
the West too. How many Sikhs and Hindus who are
in the West pratcice it?

Bedhouin ignores the fact that Islamic culture -- as a superculture embracing many cultural variants -- tends to inculcate a nebula of many types of diseased psychology. There are a few types of disease (e.g., honor killings, female genital mutilation) for which one cannot point out a smoking gun in the Koran or Hadiths as a direct mandate; but one cannot deny that Islam as superculture establishes a social ambiance -- of twisted notions of honor, pride, misogyny, xenophobia and irrational inerrancy -- that tends to nourish rather than stamp out extremism.

The main reason you have in certain Muslim countries laws and police attempting (some more feebly than others, and mostly corrupt and subject to bribes and peddling influence) to curb some of these instances of criminal disease -- the main reason is that Muslim countries have had to adopt at least lip service to modern Western notions of criminality. The King of Jordan, for example, could within 72 hours easily completely stamp out all honor killings, by his power of royal fiat. Why doesn't he?

Shiva,

"It is Islam that we are focussing on here on this forum,so discuss islam,not India or Hindus"

I think it is a perfectly appropriate comparison. Honor killings occur in Islamic society therefore you associate it with the religion. Abuse of women is epidemic in India which is predominantly Hindu therefore Hinduism is at fault. Indian Muslims do not engage in infanticide or wife burning, therefore it must be a fault within the Hinduism. In both cases the assertions are to be rejected as false and invalid.

"And what about that little incedent in Saudia ,the execution of Princess Mishaal bint Fahd bin Mohammed,and things ain,t changed that much since then"

Whoever told you that the Saudi Royal family controls the Islamic religion? This is the same family which prohibits reading of various Suras in the Koran which show monarchies in an unfavourable light. The King issued a "royal" edict for her execution, it never went through the Shariah legal system, it was never an Islamic verdict. Pray tell, what religious scholar in Saudi Arabia would oppose the King? His head would be the next on the block. The Saudi Monarchy is a corrupt and oppressive regime which itself goes against many Islamic principles as many similar corrupt and oppressive governments in the middle-east.

"Bedhouin-- I was in agreement with you that the burnings in India weren't a strictly Muslim affair."

Wife burning isn't a Muslim affair at all. India is a predominantly Hindu nation. It isn't practiced by the Indian Muslims, but by Hindu Indians. As is infanticide, and prenatal determination for abortion.

I'm not trying to turn this into a finger pointing exercise. I'm trying to draw parallels for you, about backwards cultural practices occur within societies that are predominantly of one religion. Hinduism is not part of the horrific abuse that women are on the receiving end of in India, no more than Islam is part of honour killing.

"In Jordan, if a woman is afraid that her family wants to kill her, she can check herself into the local prison, but she can't check herself out, and the only person who can get her out is a male relative, who is frequently the person who poses the threat,"

Ridiculous law. But this is a civil law, not an Islamic one.

Dr Pepper,

Female genital mutilation is wide-spread in non-Muslim African societies. There is no support for this practice in Islam.

"for which one cannot point out a smoking gun in the Koran or Hadiths as a direct mandate;"

Thank you for seeing this point. If it is not in the Koran it is not part of Islam.

"The King of Jordan, for example, could within 72 hours easily completely stamp out all honor killings, by his power of royal fiat. Why doesn't he?"

It is a tragedy that the majority of Islamic nations are under the yoke of corrupt despotic regimes whose sole purpose is to stay in power. In these countries there is no justice, there is no equality, and there is no desire by those in power to educate and empower their population.

"mostly corrupt and subject to bribes and peddling influence"

You've summed it up in a nutshell.

Bedhouin - nothing is ever islam's fault.

It's either the jews, the hindus, someone else.

Always blame others is one of the basic problems that is stopping islam from becoming civilized.

Taking personal responsibility, and quit blaming others is a step that islam must take. Butchering and subjugating women is not the jew's fault, it is ISLAM'S fault.

You should see these as they are - crimes against women, the same as any crime against women.

All of these beliefs are inconsistent with the true practice of Islam:

- Women should not vote
- Women are not allowed to be educated
- Women should not drive
- Women cannot work

Remember that there are over a billion Muslims world wide. As one of those Muslims, who also happens to be male, I recognise that there is no religious justification to any of the above. I am not the only one I am one of many.

You fail to recognise that there are Muslim countries where honour killing is not practiced, and that even in countries where it does exist, you can't assume that the majority condone it.

Abuse of women is an act of evil, it becomes even more even when people contest that they do it with the side of right on their side.

Abuse of women has reared it's ugly head in many developed societies, it has been reduced but not eliminated through equal rights movements, but not eliminated.

The FBI estimates that 4000 women die each year in the US as a result of domestic abuse.

Again, let me restate my position. If you wish to claim that there is a problem in predominantly Muslim countries of honor killing and justification, then I am in total agreement with you.

If you wish to claim that vocal opposition to this practice should be pursued and governments pressured to reform their system of law and enforcement (as the case highlighted in Joran), then I am in absolute agreement with you.

If you claim that it is Islamic to do so, or the result of the Islamic religion, then that is the point at which our points of view will have to diverge.

Another point I would like to make is on perception. If you believe that the religion of Islam will ever be wiped out then you are deluded.
If argument backed by this view would be put forth to a Muslim government or community that the relgion is at fault, they will immediately go on the defensive and reject that notion as well as every thing else you might say.

How exactly have the women who are suffering the problem been helped?

The key is education.

Only muslims can clean up Islam.

The first step is to STOP BLAMING OTHERS for your own self created problems. Butchering and subjugating women is an islamic problem.

Moderationist,

I urge you to read what I have written with a more open mind.

Dr Pepper and Bedhouin.

Both of you obtain(and read) a copy of "Reliance of the Traveller"(Sharia Law book) and check page 59 or e4.3 before you state that Circumcision is NOT Islamic.

"Circumcison is obligatory for both men and women.
In women it is the removal of the clitoral prepuce(not the clitoris itself)"

which just goes to show that mnay Muslims do not know their own laws as the right to slash in a certain area certainly is not limited to the above.

While we are at it, it was this same "civilsation" that used widespead castration of its captured enemies and slaves but denied ever dirtyin its hands by employing Christian and Jewish slaves to do it.

The hypocrisy of these lying swine knows no bounds.

Bedhouin, this honour killing has occured in a muslim family of a muslim nation but islam is not the direct cause of this hienous crime. Islam has contributed to this dirty inhuman practice by not allowing any reform in the Ummah. Violence is deep inside the core of Islam, therefore any act of violence is supported by this "religion of peace."

Bedhouin wrote: "If it is not in the Koran it is not part of Islam."

That's why Islam is the monstrous problem it is: the Koran. What non-Muslim in his right mind would want the Koran to be faithfully, zealously actualized by millions of people? Only an Infidel with a self-hating death wish would want that.

Dr. Pepper wrote:

"That's why Islam is the monstrous problem it is: the Koran. What non-Muslim in his right mind would want the Koran to be faithfully, zealously actualized by millions of people? Only an Infidel with a self-hating death wish would want that."

You and I are pretty much on the same page, here, with a minor addition on my part -- infidels who know little or nothing about Islam, and those who do but won't admit that it is a problem.

And Bedhouin, you are correct. Those folks who think that Islam will ever be wiped out are deluded. So, as long as Islam is going to be around for a while, let me ask you:

If you personally follow the Qur'an and Islamic teachings to the letter, are you obliged to subjugate me or my family, or convert us, or kill us, or to impose sharia law upon us?

That, IMO, is the direction in which the debate needs to go, and what the non-Muslim world needs to know.

Unfortunately PRCS, no-one can ever believe anything a Muslim says.
It is very sad...especially for the poor Muslims.

A few of the many teachings of Islam regrding deceiveing the infidel.

Qur’an 4:142 “Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them.”
Bukhari:V2B24N555 “I heard the Prophet say, ‘Allah hates for you for asking too many questions.’”
Qur’an 92:8 “We will make smooth for him the path to misery.”
Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”
Bukhari:V6B60N662 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.’”
Qur’an 8:30 “Remember how the unbelievers plotted against you (Muhammad). They plotted, and Allah too had arranged a plot; but Allah is the best schemer.” Ishaq:323 “I am the best of plotters. I deceived them with My guile so that I delivered you from them.”
Ishaq:365/Tabari VII:94 “Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ‘O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.’ ‘Say what you like,’ Muhammad replied. ‘You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.’”
Bukhari:V5B59N369 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?’ Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslamah got up saying, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet said, ‘Yes,’ Maslamah said, ‘Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.’ The Prophet said, ‘You may say such things.’”
Qur’an 13:27 “Say, ‘God leads whosoever He wills astray.’”
Ishaq:442 “By Muhammad’s order we beguiled them.”

"If you personally follow the Qur'an and Islamic teachings to the letter, are you obliged to subjugate me or my family, or convert us, or kill us, or to impose sharia law upon us?"

No, no, no, and no.

If the above were true how does one account for the Christian (and formerly Jewish population prior to the creation of Israel) that exists in the middle east?

How is it that I can marry a Christian or Jewish woman in the place of a Muslim one if she is my enemy? She is free to continue practicing her faith, the only condition imposed is that the children follow the religion of their father.

The Islamic view for Shariah:
1. Shariah law is applicable only to Muslims.
2. In many Islamic countries civil law has replaced Shariah law, Shariah is used for the determination of marriage/divorce, inheritance etc.

Zathras,

"Circumcison is obligatory for both men and women.
In women it is the removal of the clitoral prepuce(not the clitoris itself)"

"... which just goes to show that mnay Muslims do not know their own laws as the right to"

Read my post again, there was no mention of circumsion but of Female Genital Mutilation. Circumsion has as much to do with FGM as it does with male castration; not a lot.

PRCS,

As an addendum to my earlier post (in retrospect 'no' seems to be an unacceptably short answer to a serious question).

The Koran does not endorse forced conversion. Historically there was a period of conquest which in which is Islamic empire expanded. We can find parallels in Christianity to this.

Do Muslims want to kill you? I don't, none of the Muslims I know do, and none of my Christian or Jewish friends think I want to kill them either.

Shariah law does not need to exist in Australia, the UK, or the US. Muslims are obliged to comply to the law of the country they reside in.

Take a step back and look. Parts of the media, and right wing groups are all painting a doomsday picture of Islamists at the gate. This is reinforced by the horror of attacks in New York and then in London, and then with the honor killing murderers which is the topic of this thread.

Then think of the billion or so Muslims from China to Czech, who have the same desires as you. Family, health, education, and a future for their children.

Look at the majority of peopl in Iraq. What do they want know? To conquer and convert you? Or recover from decades of war, and overcome the civil-strife that they face caused by forces from within and without.

This guy gets my vote for the 2005 Darwin Award.

Islam is a mental disorder for many Muslims. Not all, since man's better nature, better angels, can sometimes prevail over being born into this desert cult

Taking shiva's stats a little further, Pakistan leads the world in such "honor" killings, so this story should come as no surprise. Pakistan, in the six years prior to the linked 2004 article below had a little under 600 "honor" killings per year during that time. And Pakistan is our "ally" in the WoT. Go figure. But "honor" killings are not about islam, and its "shame-based" societal strictures from its "scriptures," right?

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=1187

Islamabad (AsiaNews) 22 July, 2004 – Honour crimes are an archaic practice in Pakistan. Although precise figures are hard to obtain, especially for the more remote rural and tribal areas, Pakistan is thought to hold the world record in honour crimes.

--SNIP--

Official data recently published by the Pakistani Senate show that more than 4,000 people died in the last 6 years as result of karo-kari. Of the victims almost 2,800 were women and just over 1,300 were men. Thus twice as many women as men lose their lives to this most barbaric social custom.

The data show that the highest number of karo kari killings were perpetrated in Punjab province followed by Sindh, the North-West Frontier Province (NWFP), and the south-western province of Baluchistan. Some non governmental and media sources suggest that prior to 1998 Sindh topped the list.

Of the 2,774 murdered women, 1,578 were killed in Punjab, 751 in Sindh, 260 in NWFP and 185 in Baluchistan. Of the 1,327 murdered men, 675 were killed in Punjab, 348 in Sindh, 188 in NWFP and 116 in Baluchistan.

Although 4101 people were victims of honour killings only 3,451 cases were brought before the courts: 1.834 in Punjab, 980 in Sindh, 361 in NWFP and 276 in Baluchistan.

Sorry, my math is off. That should be ". . . a little under 700 'honor killings' per year during that time. . . ."

Actions speak louder than words, Bedhouin.

Most of the horrors and butchering and terrorism in the world is done by muslims.

The Koran tells muslims to lie, cheat, do whatever you have to do to non muslims until you can kill them.

The key is education.
Posted by: Bedhouin [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 26, 2005 01:23 \\\

Bedhouin l agree on this point only "the key is education", any sane person would come to the conclusion that Islam is a cult of death, live by it at your own peril! the koran condraticts itself, like it was made by a madman! you grew up with it, and it has brainwashed you. liberate yourself and leave it now!

I am truly sorry that you feel that way.

I have no problem being a Muslim, and fortunately for me the people around me don't either.

I believe in equality, democracy, and freedom of thought and religion, things which you argue are the antithesis of Islam, which I believe are not.

If you want to harbour universal hatred for 1 billion people and their religion, that is your choice. You believe Islam wants to destroy you and everything you value, therefore you retaliate with equal amounts of hatred. You may want to explore alternative points of view before cementing your conclusions.

The reality is, you can scream and you can rage, but you will never eliminate Islam, in the same way that Christianity, Judaism, and other beliefs will not be eliminated. Fortunately for me I live in a fairly tolerant society which is occasionally marred by religious and racial misunderstanding and I have close friends of all faiths who reinforce my belief that people are good, and not all of them express uncontrolled hatred.

Bloodthirsty is bloodthirsty, is evil, is Islam.
A beautiful peaceful religion...

Bedhouin,

Thank you for your response, and I believe that you are sincere.

However, based upon your answer, I must assume that you do not personally follow the Qur'an and Islamic teachings to the letter. So, let me rephrase the question, if you don't mind.

If your Imam were to follow the Qur'an and Islamic teachings to letter, would he be obliged to subjugate me or my family, or to convert us, or to kill us, or to impose shaira law upon us?

The issue is important and needs to be addressed without a sugar coat.

I do not believe that Muslims can fully practice their faith in the U.S. without violating the law.

I look forward to your honest response.

"Sharia Law is applicable only to muslims"----- This incomplete statement, has been made for deception-an islamic practice sanctioned by Koran.According to Sharia whole world belongs to Allah and only Believers (and not Kafirs)have a right to live. Further there can not be any other law other than ordered by Allah,i.e., SHARIA LAW. Once all kafirs are eliminated, Sharia will automatically applicable (only) to muslims.

Sharia (Arabic: شريعة; also Sharī'ah, Shari'a, Shariah or Syariah) is the Arabic word for Islamic law, also known as the Law of Allah. Islam classically draws no distinction between religious, and secular life. Hence Sharia covers not only religious rituals, but many aspects of day-to-day life, politics, economics, banking, business or contract law, and social issues.

Traditional Muslims who understand the Quran and the hadith (reports of Muhammad’s words and actions outside of the Quran) believe that Islamic law or sharia expresses the highest and best goals for all societies. It is the will of Allah.

[5:33] The just retribution for those who fight GOD and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the Hereafter.

This is just one more case of the famous tolerance of Islam.

As we all know, Islam is a tolerant religion and this Pakistani father had been tolerating his daughters ...until the day he snapped.

Now Islam will be tolerant with this father.

Who can complain about so much tolerance?

The Religion of Peace (M-A)

Hello,
I can't believe how many replies this topic got within a period of two days! I really enjoyed reading all the replies.
As far as the topic is concerned, I should possibly mention that I am a Muslimah myself and I am certainly against 'honour killings'.
These 'honour killings' are also prohibited or forbidden in Islam. In order to elaborate in this point I will explain something about 'run away marriages' that I found out about a year ago.
According to Islam girls of the age of 16 and above and boys of the age of 18 and above have the right to choose their own life partner, as they are said to have reached the age of maturity. The consent of the parents is pleasing but nor necessary or obligatory. So it means that if a 16 year old Muslimah wants to marry an 18 year old Muslim, Islamically she isn't bound not to do so in any way.
As far as the 'honour killings' are concerned, then they are quite nonsensical in my point of view, as they are based more on your position in this world and society, in comparison to your position in the world hereafter, if one believes in the existence of a heaven and a hell.
'Honour killings' by no means are justifiable by the religion Islam. What makes people do such things are the social pressues around them.
And what do you folks thing about the 'selfish gene' by Richard Dawkins by the way? Don't these people, who kill their own blood, want their genes to live a healthy and happy life? A bit difficult to answer for me...
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P.S:
goodluck with posting..and a really nice topic to talk about... keep it up! :)

This so called father should be skinned alive and have his arms and legs tied to posts...spread eagle.....and allowed to have red ants crawl over his entire body...while the women of the village watch him die a slow death.

I SCREAM with my female voice at these scum of the earth! I am ready to slice and dice these sick BASTARDS!

ELIMINATION.....ELIMINATION.....ELIMINATION!

Bedhouin

Check out the following link, and then tell us how honor-killing is a cultural, rather than an Islamic practice.

The other portion of your argument - that in India, brides are burnt alive, or that female fetuses are aborted, is not only irrelevant; the crimes you mention happen to be illegal. Also, none of these practices are sanctioned by religion - Hindu or Sikh - whereas the practice of honor-killing seems to be globally prevailant among Muslims. If it was a cultural malaise, Arab Christians and Jews would be doing it as well (they don't), and non-Arab Muslims, like Pakistanis, Turks, Iranians, etc, wouldn't be doing it. From the link above


Honor killing is a cultural/tribal phenomenon!!!

Most Muslim apologists and also some gullible westerners want to argue that the ‘so called “honor killingé is not Islamic and it’s a tribal/cultural vice.’ This statement is utterly untrue and only a wish full covers up. It’s true that in pre-Islamic Arab culture this heinous honor killing of women did exist; likewise, many other uncivilized practices like stoning, flogging, beheading, slavery etc also existed in the pre-Islamic Arab society. But Islam did incorporate entirely most of these inhumane/uncivilized practices of pagan society, which they now call them Allah’s laws.

Had it been the tribal/cultural practice, ‘honor killing’ would exist amongst the Arabs only. But honor killing does happen amongst the non-Arab Muslims also. Also Arabs belonged to all religions (Muslims, Christians, Jews, Bhai etc.) would practice honor killing with equal prevalence. Fact of the matter is—no Arab Christians, Jews or Bahai etc do practice this uncivilized act at all. Only Arab Muslims do practice this heinous act with a regular pattern.

Honor killing does happen only amongst the Muslims and these honor killings get support and encouragement from the ethical teachings of religion Islam. In 1986 this kind of honor killing did happen in the United States of America in an Arab Muslim family. In 2003 honor killing happened in Sweden again in a Muslim family. However, some very rare, sporadic case of such killing might have happened in other society or people of other religion. But they are no where near to compare with the regular pattern, or routine feature of honor killings which do happen in the Muslim nations that I have mentioned. It has been reported that in Pakistan and in Jordan several hundreds of “honor killingsé do happen every year. Perhaps, it will be more plausible to name this so called ‘honor’ as the “Islamic honoré, which Muslims stupendously try to save!

Below this section, the article goes on to cite the relevant parts of the Quran/Hadith that sanction this.

See for yourself.

Here is the site - it didn't appear after I had last posted.

http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/honor_killing.htm