'They promised us paradise through martyrdom'

"...wrong notions about jihad, and possibility of bringing these youths back from their deviant paths and accommodating those returning from the 'regions of clashes.'"
-- from a postoing above

From the Regions of Cash, Saudi Arabia and the petty sheikhdoms of the Persian Gulf (it drives the lcoals wild when the proper toponym is used), comes the re-education of those who are the misinterpreters of Jihad. And why are they misinterpreters of Jihad? Because they weren't out killing Jews, Hindus, Christians, like any sensible and correct Jihadist. They were directing their fury at the nice, Good Government Boys of the Al-Saud family, its courtiers and hangers-on and bribe-conduits. And it's not right, it's not fair, to call fellow Muslims, just because of their massive theft of what should be state property, and the entire system of corruption by which contracts are awarded and their prices inflated, which keep the nearly ten thousand "princes" (given what the Al-Saud family is all about, shouldn't such words as "king" and "prince" be put into quizzical quotation marks, akin to "Emperor" Bokassa?), "infidels" and treat them as such.

That's what all this re-education is about. Listen closely. Read between the Arabic lines. It is clear that no one is being asked to, or encouraged to, give up Jihad against the "real" Infidels. Not at all. In fact, what so alarms the Saudis is that they have always directed hostilty and discontent outwards, towards those very Infidels. The Saudi rulers are not unhappy that so many Saudis end up in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Iraq, the Philippines, and elsewhere. For them it is wonderful. Locals who are the kind motivated enough to go to war might, if they were not carefully directed to take out their fury elsewhere, stay at home and begin to meditate on the lords of misrule right there at home.

Before this all gets reported, deplorably and predictably, as "Saudis Find New Ways to Convince People to Give Up Jihad" (in the same spirit as those breathless accounts of "How Democracy Is Coming -- Slowly -- To the Kingdom" or "Change Afoot in Desert Kingdom" or "Women See Visible Progress in Saudi Attitudes" (you've all seen examples, and no doubt will see many more)-- keep carefully in miind what this really means.

For us, the Infidels, it means nothing. Or, to the extent that it makes sure that all fury at local misrule is never directed at Muslim rulers for the takfir impulse (Muslims labelling fellow Muslims as "Infidels") has been brainwashed out of them, and they can get on with the real business of living as they see it -- Muslims harming the interests, limiting the lives, even ending the lives, of Infidels. Why? Not because they have been guilty of local misrule. Not because they have done anything in particular. But because they are Infidels.

Isn't that enough? What more do you want?

From article:...'wrong notions about jihad'...

What notions are those?

I like this one a lot too: "We were easily lured with the promise of paradise through joining in the efforts to alleviate the suffering of our brethren," one of them said."

So thats the real reason for jihad? The brethren are suffering? Victims, every one of them. Picked on, pushed around, killed.
Well it's a natural thing, noble even, to want to save the 'brethren' from all this calamity and suffering. You would think these saviors of the brethren, would join up without the Fab72 promises. I guess Bill Clinton was right, it really is all about sex. How many of them would sign up if there were no virgins. Suffering alone is not enough...you got to have sex too, and eat once in a while. What these guys dont realise is that the Savior of the Brethren, has already been here, left his mark and took off for friendlier places. There was only one savior,
his name was not Jihad, no jihadist can replace him. Thats why they have to add sex.
'Jihad, fighting in Allah's cause'...at the very root, even deeper than 'loot is good', is sex.
The prime motivator...Allah's cause is sex. Thats why he offers up virgins and built this huge multi-room brothel in the sky as a monument.
The root of Allah's desire is propagation and lots of it. Spread the word through intensive breeding. 'Go forth and multiply', was no joke.
Muslims take their obligations to Allah very seriously, especially those involving sex and producing little muslims by the jillions.
The muslim in the article was telling the truth(for once) but he does not realise he has been taken for a sap and a sucker.
Which brings us to the root of the suffering brethren. First of all, being a sap, sucker and stupid, bring automatic suffering. Overpopulating your tent, not producing much and spending all that time popping out new little muslims, causes poverty. Punctuated by a lack of soap and good dentistry. No wonder these people have to attack for Allah...the only way to get to a dentist is through jihad...'Allah said it...'Sex is good...so is soap'...well, Allah knows best...or so it might seem...

For those of you who copy-paste Hugh's comments and/or who select them for blogs, I'd advise you to run a fine-tooth proofreading comb through them:

For example, his sentence -- "In fact, what so alarms the Saudis is that they [the jihadists] have always directed hostilty and discontent outwards, towards those very Infidels."

-- lacks a crucial "not", to wit:

"In fact, what so alarms the Saudis is that they [the jihadists] have NOT always directed hostilty and discontent outwards, towards those very Infidels."

P.S.: I'm available for proofreading work, at reasonable rates.

"So thats the real reason for jihad? The brethren are suffering? Victims, every one of them."

This view of the jihadists is also the view of Warner Brothers and George Clooney, insofar as it is being purveyed by their latest movie Syriana as the "real" truth about the Middle East and America's involvement in it. (See the article in today's frontpagemag.com:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20643

Mmmm, how to politely and safely say this... Hugh is right that these guys aren't denying jihad entirely. But they have been enlightened as to what it entails. What they discovered the hard way in Iraq is that the "jihad" in Iraq is not run by Iraqis trying to expel Americans, but by AQI psychos, driven by bloodlust and a desire to recreate a caliphate, or reasonable facsimile thereof, in the Sunni regions of Iraq. These "failed muj" on TV have no desire to remake the map of Arabia, and found they were of no use to the jihad except as human bombs. They came with fantasies of Chechnya in their minds, matching RPGs and SAMs against the US forces. What they found is that anyone who goes toe-to-toe with US forces dies, and that the jihad gains nothing for that sacrifice. The truck bomber just kills other muslims, mostly women and children, even the despised Shia type, and the jihad gains nothing for that sacrifice.

There are different campaigns going on here, and while anything the Saudis touch is suspect, this campaign, unlike the prison release program, is being driven by US pressure on the KSA to stop the flow of muj wannabes to Iraq, and by the parents of the muj wannabes, many of whom actually don't like seeing their children running off to get slaughtered. The House of Saud's interest is that these boys often return back to the kingdom fully radicalized, trained, and now with AQ connections in the outside world. The less that go and return, the less problem for the House of Saud down the line.

So much for illusions about the motives of the Arab states. However, every now and then our interests coincide (though usually not where the State Dept or CIA thinks they coincide). The muslims in this article (at least) realized they were played for saps and suckers, but they were self-interested enough to survive. They were willing, by and large, to play by the rules, fighting as combatants against US and coalition forces. They weren't willing to murder women and children. They realize they were lied to by the imams and the wormtongues slithering around their mosques, and they're willing to tell everyone how they were played for fools. If they convince anyone else with fantasies of glorious martyrdom to stay home, that's just fine with me.

If all that is the case, what has "reformed" them?

I think it goes something like this:

"Grab them by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow"

At least - as Hugh points out - within the boundaries of the House of Saud.

Anthony, you might even call them "neo-cons," mugged by reality.

Look, this piece is a good sign. Muslims coming back from Iraq (and parents of "shahids") know something is terribly wrong with the jihadist doctrine within Islam. They are disillusioned. They are ripe for a concerted information campaign from people like us.

We know the deal: Islam is full of contradictions and commands that oppose the natural human conscience. Islam is not historically or rationally supportable. We all know the many, many ridiculous assertions in the Koran and Hadiths: The Hebrew and Christian scripture are true (Koran 3:7, 5:46-47) and yet Mohammed claims the Jewish temple never existed, Mary is the sister of Moses, Ishmael was the chosen son, Judas and not Jesus was crucified, etc. etc. Absolute historic bunk from extra-religious sources and a direct contradiction.

Islams only hope is to prevent it's followers from hearing the truth from non-Muslims. That is the absolute requirement for apostacy and prosyletization laws. Mohammed realized the need for these laws to prevent the house of cards (Islam) from crashing to the ground. He also realized that Islam could not coexist with other religions and ideas. The absolute requirement for Muslims is blind faith, despite every fact. That drives the whole issue of Jihad: the whole world must be under the delusion of Islam and nobody can speak the truth.

The entire world is now focusing on Islam like a lazer beam. As non-Muslims wake up and read about Islam, they are finding the ridiculous assertions of Mohammed in the Koran (I'll repeat for any Muslims reading: The Hebrew and Christian scriptures are "true" (Surah 3:7 and 5:46-47) and yet the Jewish temple never existed, Mary was the sister of Moses, Judas and not Jesus was crucified, etc. Absolute historic and factual and rational idiocy. Non-Muslims are reading the over 100 "kill infidel" verses in the Koran).

The reason the radicals are so intent on taking over all non-Muslim nations quickly: Islam cannot coexist with other religions/ideas or a rational, critical culture. The Western value of critical analysis rips apart the garbage of Islam. Many Western Muslims are started to leave Islam in rather large numbers because of this fact. Muslim apologists are finding it impossible to defend the indefensible.

We need to push the truth to as many non-Muslims and Muslims as possible. The truth is what will bring down the house of cards (Islam). Islam's only hope is to shut off all discussion by killing critics and preventing prosyletization or apostacy by murder. We are in a race against time. Once enough people are educated, then the information will get to Muslims. We need to make every effort to get the information to Muslims. Ex-Muslims become our best allies, as they are passionate about bringing their former brethren out of the chains of Islam.

Right now, we have an audience with those coming back from Iraq. I believe many of them are disillusioned with Islam.

If we are to go on what these youths are saying, then this might be the first tiny positive sign that one or two things might be changing. Maybe more Muslims ought to start asking themselves "If there really is paradise through martyrdom, then why haven't those who tell us there's paradise martyred themselves?". The answer is easy - there's no paradise awaiting on the other side, and those mad mullahs, clerics and imams know it. Thats why Arafat fought for life right up until the bitter end. Thats also why Bin Laden, Zarqawi, Zawhiri, Ayatollah Khamenei and Ahmadinejad and the rest of the hate peddlars haven't blown themselves up, have avoided being blown up, and expect others to get blown up instead. Thats what we need to get through to Muslims worldwide - your spiritual leaders expect you to die but they're rather less enthusiastic about dying themselves.

"The plight of the Muslim ummah..."
-- from GulfNews article

This is all the energy source Islam will ever need. So long as this self-serving myth persists, Jihad will persist.

Think of this nugget o' bullcrap as being a lot like a thermonuclear battery, a limitless source of go juice (go kill, that is).

Wait a minute....

How can this be...

A true muslim must follow ALL of the Koran...
Period...

It is not open to interpretation...

Mohammed was fond of slaughtering the innocents.
Raping women captives (in front of their familes)
before killing all of them...
Marrying 6 year old girls.
Chopping infidels heads off.
Genocide of the Jews and Christians..

And Mohammed (Pork be on him)
said it is mandatory that ALL Muslims
engage in Jihad
(and this wasnt some spiritual struggle)
It was Islamic terrorism..

but we are supposed to believe that after a few counseling sessions these thoughts have been majically purged?

Who was the counseler? Dr Phil?????

It is impossible to purge these thoughts because..

They are in TOTAL Agreement with the Tenants of Islam...

Kill ALL the Jews
Kill All the Christians
Kill ALL the Infidels..

Until the BLACK FLAG of ISLAM
waves over the world....

Sorry i dont believe it for one second...

You can put a bunny suite on a crocodile..
and Tell it not to think about killing...

but it is still
A crocodile in a bunny suite

And He is HUNGRY!!!

Yes, it may represent a chink in the armour, but I do not share the optimistic feelings of some other posters. I am far from convinced that these guys have learnt anything.

If a member of the Saudi Security Services had a camera in my face and a .44 magnum pointed at my nether regions I too would say pretty much whatever I was told to.

jingoist...
Well said. And it gets even scarier if the crocodile in the bunny suit believes
we are living in the end times...

"And Mohammed (Pork be on him)... and He is HUNGRY!!!
-- posted by jingoist

Bless you, son. Bless you.

Anthony,

I am optimistic for other reasons, and see this as just one of many indicators of the chink in the armor.

A number of the British fighters (that have been to Iraq and back) have become openly cynical about the Jihad mindset. They have come out and told other Muslims the Islamists in Iraq are crazy, disorganized psychos. That the Jihadi mindset is screwed up and the insurgency is not worth it. Or mainstream news is ignoring this, but I know it for a fact.

Parents of "Shahids" are starting to speak out. Particularly about their anger against the cowardly Imams and Islamist leadership (that duped their sons into believing in "paradise" for murdering "infidels", yet will not do it themselves. Additionally, many Muslims are noticing that Jihadi Imams and Leaders don't send their children to commit suicide either). The "paradise" for killing infidels is becoming the joke it has always been. Suicide murderers are in Hell, and many Muslims are coming to understand this.

The number of Muslims leaving the faith is growing rapidly. Of course our media is ignoring this fact out of ignorace and PC. Go to the Apostate websites. Additionally, many of the new "apostates" are quiet about their decision. In the UK underground churches are full of ex-Muslim Christians who maintain the image of remaining Muslim (for fear of being killed/cut off). However, the truth is becoming emboldened.

Islam can only grow when non-Muslims are in the dark and believe it's a religion of peace. They are brought in, told they cannot leave, then given the full truth. As non-Muslims begin to learn the full truth first, they will not convert. Additionally, the full information about Islam is not even known to many Muslims. As Muslims hear the truth, they will start leaving in large numbers. They will not be able to accept the Koran as the word of God, and therefore not feel obligated by passages like Surah 9:5.

The real reason I'm optimistic is that I've studied the religion in detail. It is so obviously false (historically, logically, rationally, theologically) that it cannot stand up to scrutiny. Un-Truth cannot coexist with truth, and truth always prevails. The key is for all of us to be bold in telling the full truth. A few of us will be killed (I have accepted this risk), but they can't kill all of us. Information and truth is how this threat will be defeated. The only reason Islam has survived is that it has been cut off from the rational world. It has prevented apostacy and prevented any outside ideas/religions from influencing followers. It has killed any critics, and therefore has been able to shut off any discussion of the truth. Now that it has moved West and become a threat, enough non-Muslims will be bold enough to tell Muslims the truth. It is now a matter of survival, and we have nothing to lose. I'd rather be de-capitated than live under Sharia law (and that is what will happen if we don't fight back).

"The muslims in this article (at least) realized they were played for saps and suckers, but they were self-interested enough to survive. They were willing, by and large, to play by the rules, fighting as combatants against US and coalition forces. They weren't willing to murder women and children. They realize they were lied to by the imams and the wormtongues slithering around their mosques, and they're willing to tell everyone how they were played for fools."
-- from a posting above

"Muslims coming back from Iraq (and parents of 'shahids') know something is terribly wrong with the jihadist doctrine within Islam. They are disillusioned. They are ripe for a concerted information campaign from people like us."
-- from another posting above

"this might be the first tiny positive sign that one or two things might be changing..."
-- from yet another posting above

Surely what is going on here is a campaign for two audiences: the first audience consists of local members of Al-Qaeda and similar groups (not that one need belong to a group to carry out the duties imposed by the Qur'an, Hadith, Sira -- but teamwork always helps). They have been convinced, or are pretending to have been convinced (they want to stay in Saudi Arabia, they want to go back to the mixture as before, they are no longer so eager, for any number of reasons including self-preservation and to protect their families, to act on their beliefs), that making war on Muslims is a bad idea, and that in setting off boms in Iraq, they are likely to kill inoffensive Muslms. Even if the Saudis were to draw back from the Wahhabi doctrine about Shi'a Muslims (that they are hardly to be regarded as Muslims at all, but are more accurately defined as Al-Zarqai et al. did, as "Rafidite dogs"), this is no way changes what these "reformed" terrorists are reforming about.

They are not against killing women and children, but only Muslim women and children. They are not against killing everyone in Iraq, but only Muslims in Iraq. They are not against killing Infidels who may be an obstacle to the spread of Islam in their own countries. There has been no change, and cannot be, to the Qur'an, the Hadith, and the details of Muhammad's inspirational (uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil) life. How could there be?

The Saudis do not want domestic trouble. They want, at this point, to limit the damage done by those who practice takfir, who believe that even someone who goes through the outward motions of being a Muslim can be treated as an Infidel if his objective behavior appears to help the Infidels or hinder Islam. Well, wasting the precious resources "of the Muslims" -- as Al-Zawahiri correctly said -- cretainly "helps the Infidels." All money must go to the Jihad, after essentials are taken care of. Call girls and suites at Claridge's, and villas in Marbella and on the Avenue Foch, and Plantagenet hunting lodges, are not essentials. The House of Al-Saud has a little trouble with that concept.
That is Audience #1.

And of course let's not forget Audience #2. Audience #2 consists of the Infidels, especially in the UNited States. And they must be fed a steady diet of stories -- stories about Saudi women movin' on up, and breaking glass ceilings all over the place, the broken shards spilling all over the desert floor, and driving along, pedal to the metal, sunglasses, hair flowing in the wind because the convertibe has its top down (just the thing for desert driving -- but anything will fool those American reporters).

So let'shave a story, not examined too closely, about the "reform" of these misinformed Jihadis. Just goes to show that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia really is on our side, really has been, all this time, our "staunch ally" -- despite the whisper-whisper campaign of allies of Shaytan to blacken its name. It won't work. The Saudis are just too trustworthy, too forthright, too -- too simply solid -- for the American public not to see through all the efforts to present it as sinister, dangerous, malevolent. And Exhibit #1 should be the article above -- why not let the Saudis handle all the efforts to re-program those, even in America itself, whose minds have been hijacked by those who have hijacked a great, peaceful, and above all tolerant religion?

The Saudis should offer their de-programming, "moderation-in-all-things-even-Jihad services to the American government. For free. As a service. Part of the package that is sent, as a token of affection and esteeem, from one civlization to another civlization. Just goes along with the "Dialogue of Civilizations."

What an impression that would make -- on an impressionable public.

Go to any Islamonline etc,after Arabic greetings there is usual whine on state of the Ummah -always a bummer-with suffering,victimized Muslims. Note Darfur is NOT included and doesn't rate a mention...
As to JIHAD this is the most important component of Islam-the Icing on the cake of the Kaaba.Violent,lustful & angry males are told to slay Infidels according to holy Koran, rape & pillage along the way being acceptable in the eyes of Allah, for these efforts things get even better in 'Paradise.' They are not offered the watery,ethereal Christian paradise of angels sitting on clouds strumming harps and NO SEX.
No indeed- Allah tempts with HOT SEX and more virgins than an average male could hope to screw in a lifetime. This is the attraction you see and
Bill Clinton may well have wished himself one after going on Television and saying that immortal line "I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THIS WOMAN!" Somehow one doubts Monica was virgo intacta although she probably gives a good blow job and then he had to go home to Hilary's nagging... If Bill Clinton had been a MUSLIM none of this would have happened.
For poorer Muslims who are usually the cannon fodder, Jihad provides the only overseas holiday
they are going to get.What could be more invigorating that being woken in the early hours
to mumble passages from the Koran, a frugal breakfast of bread & dates before action begins.
Lots of running & firing guns, screaming Allahu Akbar - really its just like being at a Butlin's
Holiday camp,eh. Then the excitement of handling
dangerous mines and grenades : who gets a kick merely from champagne bubbles these days when a semtex blast can land you face to face[that's if you've still got one not to mention vital equipment below] with Allah to demand your reward
of Virgins.

"If all that is the case, what has "reformed" them?"

They let them in on Islam's darkest secret, The virgins in Paradise are men

..sweets for all!!! ULULULULULULULLAULLALULU!!!

"Popular Front Nablus chief Bashar Khalani and two lieutenants killed fleeing arrest by an IDF-Border Guard force detaining wanted terrorists in Nablus
Debka
December 22, 2005, 9:07 AM (GMT+02:00)

Khalani was responsible for murdering 3 Israelis in the Carmel Market bombing a year ago and the 4 on the Geha highway in 2003.

Wednesday, Israeli forces killed a Hamas fugitive Zaid Mussa in Jenin in a firefight in which an Israeli commando was injured."

For those who are not disillusioned, there are always other places to fight...

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/184906/1/.html

YALA, Thailand : Two villagers have been shot dead by suspected Islamic militants in Thailand's restive south, caught in a two-year-long insurgency, police said on Thursday.

Abdulloman Sosansa, a 42-year-old Muslim villager, was gunned down on Wednesday in Yala, one of the three violence-plagued southern provinces, as he was walking home from a tea shop, police said.

Police suspected the villager was killed by Islamic militants as they found hand-written notes at the crime scene alleging the villager was a spy.

Muslims are sometimes targeted by Islamic insurgents because they are seen as traitors for collaborating with the Thai government.

Also in Yala, a 55-year-old Buddhist villager was shot dead by suspected militants on Wednesday while he was working in his orchard.

More than 1,000 people have been killed since the unrest broke out in January 2004 in killings blamed on Islamic militants, organised criminals and local corruption.

hello123 said "A number of the [jihadists]...have come out and told other Muslims the Islamists in Iraq are crazy, disorganized psychos...[Our] mainstream news is ignoring this, but I know it for a fact."

Pardon my skepticism, but how exactly do you know what the jihadists are thinking or feeling?

I'm tired of hearing "Middle East Experts" telling us [without the slightest hint of evidence] that:

- Islam is a religion of peace
- most Muslims practice "moderate" Islam
- there are very few "radical" Muslims, and they are all Wahhabists
- the majority of "moderate" Muslims do not financially or otherwise support the "radical" Muslims

Now you're telling us that you know that even those few "radical" Muslims are tired of jihad?

Gee, it all sounds so good. But do any of these expert opinions have any facts to back them up? Or is it all just a bunch of wishful thinking and political posturing to convince us how well our Middle East policy is doing?

Because if one looks at the facts, we don't see the number of jihadists decreasing, the number of nations with Islamic/infidel conflicts is not decreasing, the number of attacks are not decreasing, the number of fatalities is not decreasing, etc. etc. So I'm glad to hear that everything is going so well, but when are we going to see the results of all this goodwill coming from Islam?

Borg..more from mostly muslim southern Thailand where thousands are stranded by torrential rains and flooding..

"The government has dispatched military rescue units to the area because civilian teams have been reluctant to look for victims for fear of attacks by Muslim insurgents."
Posted 12/20/2005 4:05 PM

Flood death toll rises to 35 in Thailand
BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) — Troops in southern Thailand struggled through mountains of mud Tuesday in an effort to reach thousands stranded by floods and landslides that have killed at least 35 people.

Late Monday, 60 soldiers reached a village in Yala province where 2,000 people had been stranded for three days without food, said Samrerng Wongmuneeworn of the Yala disaster prevention center. He said the landslide in Tanoh Buteh killed one man and damaged about 50 homes.

The government has declared nine southern provinces disaster zones after two weeks of heavy rains left much of the area under water or buried in mud.

The affected area includes the Muslim-majority provinces of Yala, Pattani and Narathiwat, where more than 1,100 people have died in separatist violence since January 2004."

"They promised us paradise through martyrdom..."

Maybe we should start bringing this to them wholesale and in bulk ... They're happy, we're happy -- everybody is happy...

Special Guest,

I guess you've missed reading my postings beyond the one quote you pulled. I have said exactly the opposite of what you imply. I have said Islam is a screwed up religion full of violence. It is historically, logically, and rationally a load of garbage. I made clear that the problem is not the "extremists" but the religion. Period. In fact, I have recommended in every posting I have made the past 2 days (my first two days) that we undermine the foundations of Islam with the truth. I believe this is the key, as Islam cannot stand up to rational scrutiny (and I have already mentioned all the contradictions).

My optimism is because I foresee Islam eventually crashing to the ground. I know about all the various issue we have all discussed. It is extremely disturbing. I also believe there is no such thing as "moderate" Islam as a realistic alternative. The seeds of violence/Jihad are just too ingrained within Islam.

That said, need not develop a "defeatist" attitude. It's important to point out the weak points of our enemy. In the case of Islam, the weak point is the massive inconsistencies and contradictions and historical bunk. In essence, Islam cannot stand up to the truth. That is what I believe is the key to the struggle: Forcing the truth on non-Muslims and Muslim alike. The violence, the history, everything. Every bit of the embarrassing ridiculous assertions of Mohammed. Eventually Muslims will not be able to see the Koran as the word of God.

What I sense is that you don't want me to point out any good news in this struggle. Any mention of a place I believe we are winning is now being a PC "expert" who is trying to push the "religion of peace" mantra. What crap. If that is the case, just tell me and I'll leave this web site. The fact is that a number of Muslims are catching on to the truth and leaving Islam. Just look to all the apostate web sites popping up. British ex-Jihadists (with service in Iraq) have come back to London and written critically of the Islamist component of the insurgency. These are good signs. Obviously, we have a long way to go. However, the point is that we should quit being "defeatist" and look to where we can take the offense. I'm not going to be a victim, but be the attacker.

Posted by: hello123 at December 22, 2005 06:35 PM

Just pay no attion to people who don't get it!!

You are a welcome read to this sight.

And you write so much better than I can.

December 22, 2005
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/21/D8EKPOEO0.html
By H. JOSEF HEBERT
Associated Press Writer
Dec 21
WASHINGTON - The Senate blocked oil drilling in an Alaska wildlife refuge Wednesday, rejecting a must-pass defense spending bill where supporters positioned the quarter-century-old environmental issue to garner broader support. Drilling backers fell four votes short of getting the required 60 votes to avoid a threatened filibuster of the defense measure over the oil drilling issue. Senate leaders were expected to withdraw the legislation so it could be reworked without the refuge language. The vote was 56-44
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist was among those who for procedural reasons cast a "no" vote, so that he could bring the drilling issue up for another vote.
The vote was a stinging defeat for Sen. Ted Stevens, R-Alaska, who for years has waged an intense fight to open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. He had thought this time he would finally get his wish.
NO IT WAS A DEFEAT FOR THE USA AND HER PEOPLE AMEN
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/international/middleeast/22iran.html
Talks With Iran on Nuclear Plans Resume; Little Progress Is Seen
By RICHARD BERNSTEIN
Published: December 22, 2005
Specifically, the Europeans have wanted to see if Iran might agree to discussions based on a new Russian proposal that Iran's nuclear stockpile be enriched in Russia and the nuclear fuel sent back to Iran, a process that would presumably prevent Iran from acquiring an independent enrichment capacity.
But Iran has insisted that it intends to carry out uranium enrichment itself.
The European hope is that if Iran continues to refuse to move toward an agreement, both Russia and China might drop their objections to Security Council sanctions

BOY THAT MAKES ME FEEL BETTER?
http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?displayContent=82951
WHO SAYS THE RUSSIANS ARE NOT UP AGAINST THE SAME ENEMY??
WELL MAYBE NOT!!!
http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/guides/Irans%20Most%20Radical%20Regime.htm
Iran's Most Radical Regime
By Patrick Devenny
FrontPageMagazine.com | August 23, 2005
VERY GOOD READ!

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18641

The Muslim Face of AIDS
By Nicholas Eberstadt and Laura M. Kelley
Foreign Policy | July 7, 2005
On a cold December evening in the southern Iranian city of Kerman, the stars blazed overhead as a father took his son’s life. Enraged, and with an ax in hand, the head of a prominent Iranian family chopped his child to pieces for bringing shame upon his relatives. The son’s crime? Contracting HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. In a country where, in some parts, nearly 60 percent of HIV–positive citizens take their own lives within the first year of their diagnosis, the 23-year-old son faced little chance of acceptance, even from his family.

WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT BETTER READ THE WHOLE THING??

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48026
TROUBLE IN THE HOLY LAND
Child on TV: Jews
are 'dogs, villains'
Interview with Palestinian girl
featured on Saudi channel
Posted: December 22, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
Saudi television featured an interview with a young Palestinian girl who called Jews "villains" and "dogs" and said the Palestinians have no desire for peace with Israel.
BETTER READ THE WHOLE THING?
So it looks like the Saudis are doing the old bait and switch game with the USA and other Western countries cause they can’t grow food to feed their people?

Why air this on TV??
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20643
Osama's Hollywood
By Anonymous
FrontPageMagazine.com | December 22, 2005
Syriana is the Jihadist's version of recent Middle East history. Without the slightest equivocation or apology, it states the moral justification of the Islamists' war on America and the West.
WHAT EVER HAPPEN TO JOHN WAYNE AND LOVE AMERICA?
ARE WE REALLY SURPRIZED??

CALL IT WHAT IT IS AID AND ABEDTING THE ENEMY!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPOR THEM AMEN

PS
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/pictures/BAN02.htm

Posted by: otterfisher at December 22, 2005 06:14 PM

Gold Star for you today!!

Hows this look??

The evidence is adding up!!

http://www.beecy.net/frank/

Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, ‘What does the Lord intend by this?’ The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”

This can be broken by Yes it is the Army of the people of the Book who he has chosen to Free [USA] the Iraqi people as it says

He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”

Yes he has chosen the USA!!
TO FREE THE IRAQI PEOPLE FROM THE MONSTER saddam [FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A YELLOW COWARD]

And let’s look at another part?

The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases,

Ubl,saddam,zawari,all who Kill and destroy mankind?

There will be no more warnings?

Earthquake in Iran kills 31,000 who harbors ubls[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] son and wife’s??

And now Locus in Egypt

NOW IF THAT IS NOT TELLING YOU ARE ON THE WRONG PATH NOTHING WILL??

Kazakhstan Blast in mine??

Islamic terrorist- killing Iraqis??

Earthquake in Algeria??

The typhoon in Philippines Remember they ran away from the Fight in Iraq??

http://www.onlypunjab.com/fullstory1104-insight-Pink+Locusts+from+North+Africa-status-15-newsID-503.html
Pink Locusts from North Africa Swarm Through Cairo
Publish Date : 11/18/2004 5:09:00 PM Source : Science and Technology News Onlypunjab.com
Swarms of pink locusts swept through the Egyptian capital on Wednesday, evoking the biblical description of the plagues which struck in the time of Moses.
The swarms of millions flew high above tall towers or swooped down onto treelined streets, where scared pedestrians stamped
on them or ran for cover.
The flying insects arrived from neighboring Libya after devouring the countryside in central and western Africa in past months.

YES I SAY ubl[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] is losing and trying to regain control??

What verses did he say in his rambling and to say about the people of the book??

The people of
the book didn’t lose their crops??

Now Earthquake of mulsum Islands of Indonesia?? 9.3 and afterwards mass killer waves that effect many countries?/

Who is coming to the aid of the people But the Red Cross and India to help the people and Israel and the USA and the Western countries!!
210,000, mulsum killed in Indonesia alone?? Whole mulsum towns gone?? And Churches still standing??
We are waiting for the mulsums to help other mulsums?? Or with the entire fund raising they do help people instead of making war??

And now more 6.2 earthquakes in Indonesia?? Because they have sent Islamic terrorist to terrorize the victims of the killer wave??

January 11, 2005 Philippines an 4.3 Earthquake ??
Maybe small there because the fight against Islamic Terrorist??
Was ubls[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] family in
Indonesia we know they support Islamic Terrorist??
January 23 6.3 Earthquake in Indonesia??

AND THE LATES FOR THE FOLLOWERS OF THE CURSED??

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=NL712421F&news_headline=abu_hamza_covered_in_scabs

Since then, he has been charged in the UK with 16 offences including soliciting others to murder non-believers, racial hatred and possessing a document liable to help terrorists.

Hook-handed cleric Abu Hamza is covered from head to foot in scabs because he has an ailment that makes his skin bleed.
One theory is that he could have psioriasis, which results in flakes falling from crusty red patches on the skin.

NOW IF THIS AINT TELLING YOU SOMETHING??

May 29,2005 Indonesia mulsums kill Christians in a Market try to blow up a church?? 22 dead 40 injured?

May 30,2005 an Earthquake in Indonesia in mulsum region??

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158667,00.html
5.7-Magnitude Quake Hurts 37 in Turkey
Monday, June 06, 2005

ANKARA, Turkey — An earthquake () with a preliminary magnitude of 5.7 shook southeastern Turkey () on Monday, injuring at least 37 people, officials said
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17552130-23109,00.html
A 6.7-magnitude earthquake struck the Hindu Kush region of Afghanistan early today, the US Geological Survey said.
People in Pakistani Kashmir, where tens of thousands were killed by an earthquake on October 8, fled their homes when the quake struck, residents said.
Residents in the Indian capital New Delhi also felt the quake.
The quake occurred about 2.51am (8.51am AEDT) and was felt in Peshawar, Abbottabad, Mansehra, Muzaffarabad, Balakot, Lahore and Faisalabad, as well as the capital Islamabad, local television reported.
There were no immediate reports of casualties.

More than 73,000 people were killed and around 500,000 left homeless in Pakistani Kashmir and the neighbouring North West Frontier Province of Pakistan when a 7.8-magnitude quake rocked the region on October 8.

OH YEA WHERE THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST HANG OUT??

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/pictures/BAN02.htm
Aerial view of mosque surrounded by flood waters in Hat Yai
20 Dec 2005
Source: Reuters
An aerial view of a mosque surrounded by flood waters in Hat Yai, the largest city in southern Thailand, December 19, 2005. Torrential monsoon rains have wreaked havoc across Thailand's south in the past week. Picture taken December 19, 2005. THAILAND OUT
Flood death toll rises to 35 in Thailand
BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) — Troops in southern Thailand struggled through mountains of mud Tuesday in an effort to reach thousands stranded by floods and landslides that have killed at least 35 people.
Late Monday, 60 soldiers reached a village in Yala province where 2,000 people had been stranded for three days without food, said Samrerng Wongmuneeworn of the Yala disaster prevention center. He said the landslide in Tanoh Buteh killed one man and damaged about 50 homes.
The government has declared nine southern provinces disaster zones after two weeks of heavy rains left much of the area under water or buried in mud.
The affected area includes the Muslim-majority provinces of Yala, Pattani and Narathiwat, where more than 1,100 people have died in separatist violence since January 2004."

I hear that extra guards have been posted on the Grapevine raisins??

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17552130-23109,00.html
Quake rocks Afghanistan
From: Reuters
From correspondents in Islamabad
December 13, 2005
A 6.7-magnitude earthquake struck the Hindu Kush region of Afghanistan early today, the US Geological Survey said.
People in Pakistani Kashmir, where tens of thousands were killed by an earthquake on October 8, fled their homes when the quake struck, residents said.
Residents in the Indian capital New Delhi also felt the quake.
The quake occurred about 2.51am (8.51am AEDT) and was felt in Peshawar, Abbottabad, Mansehra, Muzaffarabad, Balakot, Lahore and Faisalabad, as well as the capital Islamabad, local television reported.
There were no immediate reports of casualties
More than 73,000 people were killed and around 500,000 left homeless in Pakistani Kashmir and the neighbouring North West Frontier Province of Pakistan when a 7.8-magnitude quake rocked the region on October 8.

NOW IF THAT AINT TELLING YOU SOME-THING??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE COUNTRIES WHO HAVE HEROS PITY NOT THE COUNTRIES WHO NEED THEM AMEN

Hello 123
Hang in there and stand up for what you believe in. Plenty of us including Hugh even sometimes Robert Spencer get flak thrown at us. Also accused of things 'we didn't say' but they 'didn't read properly.' It toughens us up,gives a cyber skin which repels arrows of rant. In fact teaches us to launch a few of our own preferably with humour. I think you write clearly & well. Of course we should be POSITIVE.
Sock it to 'em...

hello123, don't say goodbye.

I read your posts. You say the Qur'an is full of violence, I'm with you. You say it is full of historical inaccuracies, I'm with you. You say the solution is to expose the truth about Islam, I'm with you. You say the jihadists are disillusioned and ready to quit the jihad, you lost me.

Maybe the point where we diverge is interpreting how our society is responding to the violence coming from Islam. You said "The Western value of critical analysis rips apart the garbage of Islam." I wish that were true, but I don't see much ripping of garbage going on, I see alot of sweeping the garbage under a rug and placing a bunch of room deodorizers all around the house to cover the smell. There are a few authors such as Robert and Hugh (and Orianna Fallaci, Bat Ye'or, Daniel Pipes) but those few authors are not exactly embraced by the main stream media. Ask any non-JW reader who Tom Tancredo is, and you'll get alot of blank stares.

I don't think that the struggle to expose Islam is winding down, I think it has barely begun.

Please note that in my response I didn't attack you personally, and I didn't call you any names. I disagreed with you, and explained how and why I disagree. I can disagree with you and still think you're a swell person. Peace.

Its high time that the Leaders & Rulers of Muslim majority countries end their relentless "passing the blame on others" and assign responsibility where it belongs. i.e ISLAM
The day we see that being done; then we could see that they are truthful in their actions.
All other things they do, are of no consequence to control terrorism.

Special Guest,

Thanks for your response and chance to clear up the misperception.

I'm seeing a chink in the armor. Clearly, the vast, vast, vast majority of Muslims are lost in "blind faith" garbage: Radicals and "moderates". We have a long, long way to go, but we must recognize that we are making a difference. The fact that this website has gone from nothing to over 500,000 hits per day should be telling. The number of apostate websites popping up is telling. The number of underground ex-Muslims (which can be tracked by the numbers of underground Churches, particularly in the UK).

The real point is to recognize our most important weapon: Information/truth and ATTACK!!!!! We will not win on the defensive. If all we do is sit around and talk about the strength of the enemy, we will lose.

A good analogy to what I'm recommending: Hannibal caused major problems against Rome when he invaded the Italian penisula from the Alps. He spent years rampaging through the various Roman cities, and Rome seemed virtually helpless after the Battle of Cannae. The key to Rome's victory was when it quit focusing on the losing defensive against Hannibal, and instead attacked undefended Carthage. Hannibal was forced to leave Rome/Italian penisula to go back to North Africa. He was eventually defeated. Rome conquered Carthage and Hannibal.

We need to directly attack Islam's undefended weakness: It's inability to stand up to rational truth/information. We need to go after the heartland of Islam with the truth.

Virtually all Arabs now have satellite TV. Many, many Muslims are now using the internet. Some are reading this web site. As more Westerners find the truth, they will be able to help us spread the truth. People like Diane West and others are starting to speak out. I write hard truths in my editorials. This truth/information is the arrow to the heart of Islam. Muslims will not be able to withstand the barrage. They can kill a few of us, but they cannot kill all of us. Therefore, if we remain brave and bold in this, we will prevail.

Let's start talking about the various ways to take the fight (information/truth) to the enemy (Islam, not Muslims as people necessarily).

That said, the truth is also important for our defense. As non-Muslims get the truth about Islam, they will take the necessary steps to protect themselves (immigration, etc.). However, to win this fight we must go on the offense, and that is what I'm trying to push.

We will win this fight. Non-Truth cannot stand up to Truth. That is the lesson of history. My prediction is that the house of cards (Islam) will fall. It will just take much work and persistence on our part. I also predict that the Ex-Muslims will eventually thank us for what we've done for them. They will cry over the many suicide-murdered they've duped into Hell.

I don't trust those guys a bit.
As long as Islam stands, they or someone in their family will turn to jihad. It's a matter of time and circumstances.

The only guarantee they could offer would be to abandon islam.
therwise I will still feel nervous about sharing the same planet with them.