Why European women are turning to Islam

Product of Two Failures:

The appalling fact that a young French woman could turn to Islam is the product of TWO related failures.

First, since religion is the foundation of all culture, the West's rejection of Christianity is a form of cultural suicide. Try to think of a great society or civlization without the uniting force of a religion. There are none. There are no great atheistic civilizations. Communism was explicity atheistic and it failed. China is growing increasingly capitalistic and Christian.The intelligentsia of the West have sown the wind and reaped the whirlwind. Ever eager to destroy the culture's reverence for Christianity, they apparently didn't bargain on the possibility that another religion would step in to fill the void.

Second, the leaders of the so-called "liberal" Christian bodies worked to "deconstruct" their own religion. Clear moral guidelines were abandoned and rejected. "Church" leaders actively worked against the legitimacy of any clear and understandable set of moral guidelines. The young lady in the article referred to the presence of clear guidelines in Islam and their absence in Christianity. They are not absent in authentic Christianity or authentic Judaism, but, those guidelines have been mocked and abandoned.

It is pathetic, but, I have heard it reported that Italian men of Christian background are so accustomed to casual sex from women that they are disinclined to marry. Given that some Italian women have turned to Muslim men because, at least, Muslim men MARRY. Now, of course, this is one miserable bargain, a home for yourself and your children, but with regular beatings.

Last note. I recently tried to talk an American girl who was engaged to a foreign Muslim man out of her relationship. I did the unthinkable. I butted right in and tried my level best to convince her that AFTER THE MARRIAGE, he will beat her, and he will close her bank account, and her female children WILL wear veils after they all go back to HIS home country. She wouldn't listen. He had convinced her that the passage in the Koran about wife-beating was just a "bad translation." I hope something I said shocked her enough to make her think. WE can only hope.

In the end, Islam is moving into a vacuum blasted open by the intelligentsia and encouraged and abetted by many "Christian" leaders. What a horrible future they have created for us.

Islam is simpler, more rigorous, and it's easier because it is explicit.

And yet it is misunderstood the world over...

"There is more to bear so please read it all."

I can't. I will vomit up my dinner.

"There is more to bear so please read it all."

I can't. I will vomit up my dinner.

who converted to Islam three years ago after asking herself spiritual questions to which she found no answers in her childhood Catholicism..."
-- from the article above

O God, save us from these people who take themselves so seriously, and from their damn spiritual searches that end up with Islam. If you need a partner, dance with the boy or girl what brung you -- stick with what you have. And if you have a roving spiritual eye, based on your damn spiritual "emptiness," try to fill it up with something -- anything -- other than Islam. Become a Catholic or Greek Orthodox nun. Become a Buddhist, Theravada or any other kind. Take up a hobby. Follow Martha Stewart or Madame Blavatsky. Study biochemistry or molecular biolgy or De Sitter Space or figure out the Unified Field Theory in your spare time. Collect stamps, coins, wine, pictures. Help the poor. Take up gardening. Take up landscape architecture. Go to some Extension School. Write a book on why the Earl of Oxford, or Francis Bacon, was Shakespeare. Write confessional verse. Subsribe to "Poetry" Magazine. Do a crossword puzzle, and if the ones in English aren't enough, subscribe to "Settimana Enigmistica" or "Krestoslovotsy." Learn Chinese (unless you already know it). Write haiku, or tanka. Study the Dinka in Sudan or the Evenk in northern Siberia. Clean the house -- it needs it. Write a catalogue raisonee of all your possessions. Work in a soup kitchen. Help organize a union. Boycott the megastores. Agitate for solar energy and wind power. Study the stock market.

Don't like the spiritual emptiness of the modern world? Well, damn it, fill it up with something other than the complete lunacy of a primitive belief-system that aside from a very few rituals of worship, that has very little to do with anything spiritual at all, and women in particular are treated in a hundred ways as inferior beings, and the more profound the Islam, the more outrageous the treatment of women. a great deal to do with conquest, hatred, and war.

Or if you prefer, take all of your ill-gotten gains, or whatever you inherited, and send it posthaste to me, and I promise to fulfill your every spiritual need. Okay? Without war, conquest, or hatred. We'll start with Shakespeare's Sonnets. All 154 of them.

Any objections?

We can't take your engaging in the kind of spiritual search that ends with Islam -- Weiss-Schwartz syndrome or other kinds -- and I need the money.

So it's settled. Great.

What we have is a very shallow existence in an Alice in Wonderland world.
People join cults when they feel lost and alone and wish for meaning in their life.
We are being programed and conditioned against our nature.

Read:
http://members.mountain.net/theanalyticpapers/

especially:http://members.mountain.net/theanalyticpapers/polam10.htm

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.htm

http://www.sntp.net/behaviorism/skinner.htm

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/wundtjames.html

From anecdotal evidence there seems to be a pattern of conversions by children from permissive families. Seeking firm principles, escape from the anxiety of doubt, and discipline, they seem to go to the other extreme: rigid dogma, ritual, and simplistic rules. This strikes me as true in part form what I’ve read but more so from the few converts that I’ve met.

One only hopes that conversions are seen as an opportunity for the French anti-terrorism authorities. It’s an opportunity to infiltrate their organizations with undercover agents.

Re: "Islam demands a closeness to God. Islam is simpler, more rigorous, and it's easier because it is explicit. I was looking for a framework; man needs rules and behavior to follow. Christianity did not give me the same reference points."

This is just the type of personality that joins any cult, even one called Islam. Strange, but some people just need to be led. Too bad it's into this pit of darkness and it's a one way trip.

Very interesting comments Athena.

I read recently that in Germany, the major dailies have stopped running obituaries. An entire generation of Germans is dying off without a word, as if they never existed. This is a metaphor for Europe itself.

It's a tragedy that the cradle of the West is destined to disappear...but it's perfectly predictable. Europeans are so self-centered, shallow and value-neutered that they've lost interest in their own history and culture...they've even lost interest in family and children.

I submit my friends that such a civilization does not merit survival. But my God, the monstrosity being born in its place....

If the stupid twat wanted a simpler existence why didn't she just have a frontal lobotomy?

She would get the same effect as conversion to islam, and we would all be a lot safer!

If anyone watches the simply wonderful portrayals that have been put out - videos that most libraries carry - that glowingly portray the "beautiful" religion of peace, gag... it's no wonder that some convert. That beautiful, misunderstood, mistranslated, peaceful religion that requires all men to emulate that beautiful, misunderstood, peaceful man, Mo who, despite what some non-muslims think, never hurt a fly, never abused a women, treated all those he robbed, sorry, requested donations from to support his mission work, fairly and justly, that man who is perfection incarnate, whose mission was to "conquer" the world so that there could finally be peace... and people would never have to think or question again...well, what's not to love?

If the mainstream media would just print the dark side that all muslims know exists maybe those thinking about converting would have second thoughts. Except the "simple" ones. "Those are not the droids we're looking for" types.

~OT
~ go Trancredo
Birthright Citizenship debate ~http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10609068/

What a horrible future they have created for us.

Posted by: Athena at December 26, 2005 10:09 PM

Indeed, what a horrible future! And this lamentable scenario has been unfolding right under our noses for decades. The neo-Marxists, left-wing academia, political elites, news media, and other assorted intelligentsia, omniscient social engineers all, have been laying the foundation for their egalitarian, Elysian la-la land, where everyone is equal, diversity rules, capitalism is illegal, the state is God, and everyone is equally miserable---except them, of course.

Islam is an unexpected but advantageous bonus for them in paving the road to secularism, or so they think. They have been working diligently to undermine and weaken Christianity because they see it as the most evil, destructive force in the world, responsible for all wars and conflicts. Since Christianity is the backbone of Western Civilization, it must also be deconstructed and the evil white man, oppressor of the rest of mankind, must be eliminated. Since that will take a while, he must be restrained in the interim. The solution to his restraint is multiculturalism--third world immigration. Bring in millions of people from every ethnic, cultural, and religious faction as rivals to the evil, white majority. Encourage them not to integrate and demand special recognition and consideration because they are "minorities." Force the white oppressors to tolerate the invasion of their countries with indoctrination and laws: all races,cultures and religions are equal, and racism is a crime punishable by imprisonment. The term "racism" is all-encompassing, making it illegal for white Christians to object to any aspect of another culture, religion, or race.

With time, the races will commingle and eventually the white race will be extinct. Then peace will reign. Christianity will be dead, Western Civilization will be a bad memory, and the world will be perfect. That's the plan. To them, Islam is just another stupid religion that they will deal with later; right now, it is a convenient weapon against Christianity, the real menace.

They're not omniscient after all.

Athena says it all:

The biased presentation of Islam seen in the West shows a religion dedicated to reasonable but strict forms of conduct.

Most Christian religions in the West have downplayed any form of requirement to conform to a set of ideals that it is no wonder that some people turn to Islam.

I see this as one of the main reasons black convicts convert to Islam in increasing numbers.

. "But we must absolutely avoid lumping everyone together."

Yes...how could they effectivly torch crappy French cars if they're all in a large, uncomfortable lump?

Someone out there must have a fatwa against lumping and is frightening poor little Pascal..

May Allah tweak your sensitive bits!

"There are none. There are no great atheistic civilizations. Communism was explicity atheistic and it failed"

Which doesn't actually discredit atheism, it discredits Communism. I'm an atheist, but have a good handle on individual rights, freedom of speech, of property rights, of an objective justice system, etc, etc. No, what is needed is a rational philosophy, and that is not necessarily Christianity.

Sad news, I would think that Europe is really lost, except for my experience in Poland this summer, My nieces wedding, in a beautiful Baroque church- one of the few buildings to survive the Nazi destruction of Warsaw- was a confirmation that the Christian religion is not dead yet, at least not in the European East.

Years of hardship under communism, have sharpened the Christian will and love of family.

I made it my personal mission to give copies of Mr Spencer's books as well as Eurabia, and to talk to friends and relatives. some from Germany about the new Pope and what must be done.

I was surprised to find that many of my relations from Bavaria, who I had not seen for sometime were equally as aware of the danger.

Perhaps from the unfashionable corners and so-called backwaters, where the christian spirit has survived, it my rise to save the west.

Another doper turning to the vraimont revolucion, Islam. Hope she has a good chin.

Our media must be unshackled by our governments, and allowed to show islam for what it truly is.

My theory is that all the western governments lean heavily on the major media not to show islam and muslims in a negative light.
This game plan has several reasons; one is to keep mobs from attacking and murdering muslims, or people they take to be moslems; another is to placate the Saudis and other muslim states who sell us oil and are major world economic players; another is because our leaders still fail to recognize that the true enemy is not 'fanatical muslims', is not 'crazies', but is, in fact, islam itself.
We all wait, with increasing impatience, for our leadership to recognize who the enemy is.

I'm being much to kind, of course, to the media, whom i also hold responsible, and whose lack of truth, lack of knowledge, and lack of bravery has been, and is, a betrayal.

We need quick solutions here. Islam is the solution to her spiritual searches? Let's fast forward that search - get them all on the next flight on a permanent pilgrimage to Mecca.

Btw, make sure it's a one way ticket, and require them to hand over their European passports to the flight crew before disembarking.

DBY:

There are some glimmers of hope, as Robert noted we are now finding out that the U.S. was monitoring radiation emissions from mosques since 9/11. Praise the Lord!! This suggests that someone in Washington has figured out the problem is Islamic, if not Islam.

The young lady in the article will undoubtedly marry a Muslim, what an awakening that will be. Stories from Western women who have married Muslims follow the same pattern. Effusive and extravagant courtship conducted in the Western country. Muslim boyfriend showers them with praise, adoration, gifts and kindness. Marriage in a Western country, followed by a few more restrictions on WIFEY than normally accepted in Western countries but still nothing TOO extreme. As long as WIFEY lives in France or the U.S., she has some rights. She has a family she can run back to, so the restrictions are not too bad, not enough to trigger rebellion in a Western country.

Lastly, the inevitable move back home to Islamistan. This is often an "unexpected" move back home. Something comes up which absolutely requires the husband to return to his Muslim homeland. Wife follows, still thinking of herself as a "citizen of the world." She is a Frenchwoman after all, or she is an American after all. She respects herself and knows her way around. Then she crosses the border into the Muslim country and suddenly, she is a second class citizen, maybe a third class citizen. She is an appendage of her husband. She lacks independent property rights or independent legal rights. Her right to open a bank account, buy a plane ticket, drive, and travel are contingent on HIS approval. In many cases, he holds her visa or her passport. She can be beaten by him in public and no one will raise an eyebrow. She now lives in a prison which is as big as the Muslim country itself. She will be lucky if she can find a phone where she can call home to her relatives for help. The American embassy will be very limited in what it can do for her. She is subject to the law of that country and officials of the American embassy CANNOT openly assist an American national in breaking the law of the Muslim country. The law of the Muslim country may well make it illegal for a wife to board a plane without copious documentation of the husband's permission.

Probably most heart rending is the fact that if the woman has a child and that child crosses the boundaries of the Muslim country, she may never be able to leave the country without leaving her child to be raised by her Muslim husband in that Muslim country. Truly sad, some stay to be with their children and to try to soften somewhat the harshness that the children will grow up with.

Best of luck, I wouldn't wish this fate on a dog.

Redwine:

All of the values you pledge allegiance to developed from the Judaeo-Christian religion. You list the following: individual rights, freedom of speech, of property rights, of an objective justice system, etc, etc.

These were developed in Western civilization. The primary source, the foundation of Western civilization is Judaism,followed by Christianity and the Hellenes.

Freedom of speech first codified into law in the colony of Virginia, later in our Constitution.IT DIDN'T EXIST previously. It was NOT the product of Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Zoroastrianism or atheism. Similarly, concepts like individual rights, and an independent, objective judicial system honoring a system of law, all Western, Redwine.

If a great culture can be developed on an atheistic base, please point me to it. Remember that more than 95% of all Americans celebrate Christmas, and more than 88% of all Americans identify themselves as Christians.

Atheism INSPIRES NOTHING and NO ONE. No one builds great architecture like Notre Dame or St. Peter's Cathedral to honor NOTHING. No one writes great music like Bach and Handel to honor NOTHING. No one writes great poems and plays about a NOTHING. No one sculpts the Pieta to memorialize NOTHING. No one builds soup kitchens, libraries, free clinics, hospitals and schools for NOTHING.

Post-modernist art, is post-Christian art, and it is almost universally agreed to be dreck. I have Bach, I have Mozart's Missa Solemnis, you have John Cage. Lucky you.

At the bottom of the CSM article is a link to another CSM puff article, from a year ago, concerning conversions by US Latinas to islam. It was also linked at Dhimmiwatch:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/004450.php#comments

Susanp,
If you don't want to have "mix" with people
who aren't whites, that's your right, but you
certainly are a racist. Are you another one of
these Lord Lucan BNP trolls, or an American
variant?

For me anyways, white as I am, Islam is the
problem. I'd rather all my descendants are
not white and NOT MUSLIM than aryan muslims.
I don't see much point in confusing the issue,
though I do agree that an undiscriminating
multiculturalism (note the qualifier) has
weakened us.

Athena

While it is natural to sympathize w/ saps who land up in such situations, there is a price to be paid for stupidity. You did the right thing in trying to talk the girl you referred to out of it, but ultimately, it's she who'll have to pay the price for the stupidity of marrying into the ummah. I do however sympathize w/ any children born out of such a match.

But I agree w/ your first post. While on the surface, an agnostic view of this would let one assume that a society can be great regardless of whether or not it has established religion, the absense of a genuine religion, be it Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Judaism, et al is especially dangerous when you have a cult like Islam lurking in the neighborhood. Reason Islam has been held at bay and not spread to India, Thailand, Ethiopia et al is the presense of strong Hindu, Buddhist, Eastern Orthodox cultures respectively.

Normally, this should be a private issue, and nobody elses business. However, given the strategy of dawa and demographic conquest, embrace of Islam should be enough to cost one citizenship in an infidel country.

Of course, I don't see that ever happening.

Cornelius,

you wrote: "[Europeans have] lost interest in their own history and culture..."

Yes, and quite unfortunate. Occasionally, I search around on ebay, looking for old maps, and to see what they are selling for. Prices and page-hits generally reflect demand and interest in a subject (I realize it is a little more complicated: also cartographer, rarity, style, age, condition, availability, awareness... and perceptions of all of the above). Interest can come from across the globe. However, for maps which cover a single country, or a small locale of a country, the interest is, I think, more often locally based.

And my perception is that European maps, especially maps of France, Switzerland, Germany have less of a following than I expect. US maps are generally well followed. The US maps which are in greatest demand are maps of Texas.

Perhaps an economist could quantify this relative demand for historical objects, and relate it to broader changes in culture.

I When I lived in Sweden 1985-86, there was some finnishwomen marrying arabs already back then. But the story was always the same. The arab was very polite in the beginning but dear lord what happened after marriage.

The beating started and the marriage started to remind a prison. Therefore, the women went to the authorities. They thought marriage counseling would do some good, only to find out that the authorities saw the arabs as the customers and the women as the problem. And, in fact these sessions made the men ever madder: in the end one girl - wonder if Anne was her name - woke up at intensive care.

I'm writing a book called "xxxxx - xxxxx" which I hope will come out some time 2006-7. It will take an extremely harsh look at Saudi-Arabia so I'm not sure if I can pass the censorship. I will go very negative, but don't worry, the facts are right.

The book is partly situated in Sweden. The plan is that it will be banned in Sweden. That would be a sales argument, big time. "xxxxx - xxxxx" - totally banned in Sweden ! Download now !

Do you know any publishers in the U.S which would like to see such litterature ?

Okay, I've digested my dinner now.

What makes the modern West great has also made us vulnerable.

Our civilization is structured by paradox: neither our benefits nor our problems are simple. They are intertwined.

What Athena condemns about the West, ironically, is what Muslims condemn as well. It's a simplex condemnation. The weakness and barbarism of Islam is its zealous single-mindedness in pursuit of perfection, afraid of imperfection, afraid of uncertainty, experimentation, freedom, the darkness of the future.

"the leaders of the so-called "liberal" Christian bodies worked to "deconstruct" their own religion" says Athena, as though that is utterly, simply, a bad thing. Wouldn't it be nice if Muslim bodies worked to "deconstruct" their own religion, as we have?

The complicated fact is that the modern West has evolved into a sociopolitical matrix that by logic -- and by the blood, sweat and tears of centuries of religious conflict and strife and argument and violence -- matured into a philosophico-legal consensus that is secular. Within this overarching secular framework, Christianity and Judaism (the two massive blocks of our former theocracy, Christendom) -- as well as any other religion under the sun (except for Satanism and, Allah willing, Islam someday) -- are free to flourish, but cannot exert triumphalist control over the cultural atmosphere and legal structures.

This ongoing adventure, experiment, evolution of the modern West is far from perfect. Terrible cracks and holes have appeared as we wend our way into the uncertain future as free, mature, creatures of God. But our very secular dogma, that no man knows the Absolute Truth of God enough to force it on his fellow man -- this very secular dogma itself grew out of the seeds of our Classical and Judaeo-Christian heritage. Yes, it has sprouted, on occasion, grotesque limbs and poisonous fruits -- and perversely twisted growths that would invite the axe at our neck.

But we have no choice but to steer clear of Supremacists of all stripes, whether religious or atheist, and forge into the selva oscura of our middle age trusting in the light within enough to give God credit for making us this way, enough light to see we are good and decent -- not so zealously, fiercely good that we try to stamp out all growth in the name of pruning away our wayward wood; nor so good and decent that we refuse to prevent invaders patiently planting forest fires among us.

(I'll let Hugh make some erudite allusion to Smokey the Bear.)

Athena:

Although I'm not versant with all the ins and outs, I am aware of this:

"These were developed in Western civilization. The primary source, the foundation of Western civilization is Judaism,followed by Christianity and the Hellenes."

The problem for Christianity has been rational thought and Science. Science has killed God. The intelligent design battle is an attempt to give creationism a scientific authenticity, to try and claim back what they have lost. Their fear is not necessary though, because they are wrong in their belief that a belief in God is a necessity to sustain Western civilisation. Christianity has given much to the West, it is true, but the foundations mentioned above are not dependent on a continued belief in God for their existence. Individual rights, property rights, freedom of speech, rule of law, et al, can be fully derived from the human individual himself.

"If a great culture can be developed on an atheistic base, please point me to it."

None has, or can arise from atheism, it is little more than a lack of belief in God, but civilisation is about progress, and as science discovers more about the nature of reality, mans view must adjust with his new knowledge. Civilisation may have started on a belief in God, but that simply cannot be maintained, not without destroying science and rational thought. A very very large number of people have absolutely no belief in God - I am one of them - but do, or can, have every belief in the life of the human individual and the human individuals right to live free to seek his happiness on this earth.

"Atheism INSPIRES NOTHING and NO ONE"

And neither should it inspire anything. It is little more than a lack of a belief in God. Mans life, with all its potential possibiities and dreams, is all the inspiration needed.

"No one builds great architecture like Notre Dame or St. Peter's Cathedral to honor NOTHING. No one writes great music like...."

Anyone who loves life reaches for higher things, whether they have a belief in God or not.

I recommend a book called "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand, to you.

redwine,

One should not have faith in science. That breaks the primary rule of science. No doubt science accomplishes great things. But without moral grounding of one form or another, science quickly turns to non-productive or horribly dangerous pursuits.

Some people are moral without religion, some. I'm not sure what you mean by "higher things." It sounds suspiciously like a faith-based belief system to me. Nothing wrong with that, by the way.

Athena,

You say: "Post-modernist art, is post-Christian art, and it is almost universally agreed to be dreck. I have Bach, I have Mozart's Missa Solemnis, you have John Cage. Lucky you."

As a pedant (and, thus, an unsung hero of Western civilisation) may I point out that the Missa Solemnis is by Beethoven.

Athena's 1st post is very relevant. One of the reasons for the high preponderance of women converts in Europe could be that secular society there does not encourage men to be grown up men. Women feel essentially unwanted, and turn to Islam.

When I, a young American, lived in Germany in the 80's and 90's, for the life of me not one man was interested in marriage or children. Sure, they wanted to be my boyfriend, with no commitment beyond that, and that was the extent of it. I also ran into a number of men in their 20's who admitted they already had vasectemies because they never, ever wanted children. I thought it was strange.

Back in the States, it was like wow! Guys were serious and interested in marriage and children! I was shocked, because I had been used to the "German model".

American men are the best! (And yes, I am married with children now. If I had stayed in Germany, I doubt that would have been the case.)

Beagle, one should not have faith, period. Faith is the problem here, not the solution. The only thing that matters is the facts, and they have nothing whatsoever to do with faith, and everything to do with a thoroughly objective identification of reality. Faith is the opposite of that. It impplores, even though there is no evidence for it, believe it anyway - feel it, if you will. It's the foundation for all sorts of weird and wacky belief systems and thought processes from the Heavens Gate cult through to the dangerous Muslim cult.

"Some people are moral without religion"

Religion is not the basis for morality, the individual human life is.

"I'm not sure what you mean by "higher things." It sounds suspiciously like a faith-based belief system to me. Nothing wrong with that, by the way."

No, not faith based at all. By "higher things" I mean higher and greater achievements: writing more beautiful music, greater and more beautiful buildings, inventing and building ever more wonderous inventions, striving for and achieving greater sporting records, and on and on. In short I'm talking about the spirit of man, grounded ever so much in, this world.

The fact that you seemed to view it in terms of reaching for some higher realm that has mystical connotations, to me, alludes to a faith-based belief system on your part.

Although there are no precise figures, observers who monitor Europe's Muslim population estimate that several thousand men and women convert each year

Given opputunity,freedom and a less oppressive society, millions of Muslims would convert to other religions.

I wonder: is there the equivalent of catechism or RCIA (Rites of Christian Initiation for Adults) for wanna-be Muslims?

I don't know how true this is but I heard that all one has to do is utter a few phrases and bingo! Instant Muslim. Would that those unfortunates actually take the trouble to learn more about their religion of peace before signing up.

Athena, you Nailed it.

Another poster to this site once lamented that no one would ever do a study as to Why Catholics would convert to islam. I suspect there was an ulterior motive to that question, but good to see that many here already recognize the cause and effect going on.

(I, for one Catholic, have NO problem with both science and Faith. There is far more to God's Creation than what the literalists would have us believe, be they fundamentalists or secularists).

If anyone has managed to talk a girl out of a relationship with muslim, I am personally very interested to know how you did this.

Hugh, you forgot to mention astrology.

Anyone wanting to continue their spiritual search, could do worse than having their horoscope done.

l think these women are simply just bored, and want attention from their peers. l would suggest a one way ticket to Mecca, and wake them up real fast!

If the stupid twat wanted a simpler existence why didn't she just have a frontal lobotomy?

She would get the same effect as conversion to islam, and we would all be a lot safer!

Nice one, WhiteDemon. Very good.

Del,

Ever since I was a little tike, I've loved maps. One can learn as much history from looking at sequential maps as one can in reading text.

Perhaps Texas is so popular because it had the anomaly of a brief period of independence from 1845 to 48.

SusanP,

I'm afraid I have to agree with 'American.' This is not about race, it's about culture and values (and sanity).

Athena and Redwine,

Fascinating dialogue. It's resolution is vital. Can the non-religious and the Christians unite to save Western civilization?

Athena, I hope you're not suggesting that no atheist in history has ever produced anything of artistic beauty...of cultural, scientific or civilizational relevance.

Any woman converting to this religion or considering marrying a Muslim man should be made to read "Not without my daughter" by Betty Mahmoody. They should also be made to watch a reality TV show about kidnapped children currently being shown. The kids nearly always involve children who have been snatched by their Muslim fathers back to Turkey or other Islamist countries and the poor women who try to regain custody of their children are simply brushed off by the authorities.

Science has not killed God. What bullshit!

If it has killed God for you, or perhaps rather, killed your God, fine.

Mine is still alive and well.

Great, wonderful. We're even.

Let's all - me included - focus on the main game.

One plain comment
Do not forget that any person ,even very ugly,will likely find a patner under islam...

I do not think SusanP is a "racist".
You folks are looking at what she said from a PC angle.
What she said is true. It goes beyond the individual level, which is why it may seem incomprehensible to many people. She is not demonizing other races, she is pointing out the ultimate effect of demonizing our own "Western civilization" and history. The "white race" will vanish, but that is really not the point, the point is --HOW and WHY.
If through evolution it were to happen, so be it, but it is'nt evolution, it's deception, manipulation and pseudo-scientific theories.

I am a recent convert to non-belief in God(which is not an especially pleasant situation for me), and I believe eventually humans will outgrow the necessity of that belief, but what we have are people who are forcing things to happen before there IS a rational-logical alternative. We HAVE NOT evolved to that point yet, which is obvious by the insane and regressive POLITICAL-CORRECTNESS thought-control dogma enforced by government and institutions.

People need to open up their fricken mind to different angles of thought-- they need to resist the EMOTIONAL response that triggers avoidance of unpleasant or seemingly "improper" ideas or trains of thought. This is how minds are controlled and options are restricted-- that is the end of real freedom-- without choice we are not free.
This is not about "saving" the white race. It is about power. And the difference between earned power and unearned power. THAT is what makes the world go round. Screw all the sanctimonious slogans and phrases-- they are only meant to imobilize and short-circuit resistance to servitude.

American, I think your off base, I read Susanp's post and it was in no way racist.

Please don't use this term lightly or confuse rejection of multi-ethnic societies as racism, for where is it written that every corner on this earth should be like New York.

Perhaps someday it maybe, but don't you think it should be the choice of the British or French or Japanese to decide how much and how soon and if not.

It is a valid concern about the nature and future of the West, and a choice that the European majority has a right to make.

Living in a multiracial and cultural society, while interesting and exciting, can also be stressful and complex. I like New York for it's diversity, but I also like the part of Spain where I'm from, for homogeneity. Why demand that it all be the same?

I believe it should be a matter of choice, some places will be diverse some not, but don't use the race slur, for it is one the left's favorite insults to the west and as you said the problem is Islam and it is the enemy of every race, religion and ideology, but wanting to conserve your native culture is not racist.

My knowledge of the BNP is limited, I have been educated by some of the posters, such as Interested, about the unsavory origins of that organization, but I would consternate you energies on the more immediate threat to England and that is Islam. You focus on the BNP while your country is being lost everyday.

It is sad that only this, tarnished group is the only one that has a stance against Islam, it my be a small blessing that they are not collaborating with the enemy like the Fascists in America have been rumored to do.

Hold you passion for the greater of the two enemies, that is Islam.

Redwine, it's funny to watch atheists exhibit the behavior they so despise in theists - shoving their beliefs down others' throats. You see no redeeming value in faith? Fine. But why not just let others be?

Athena, many, many good points. Post-everythingism (nationalism, modernism, etc) hasn't been the utopia we were promised and when faced with enemies - as we are, but some of refuse to recognize - this "cool" post-y stuff is decidedly deadly.

"Islam is a message of love, of tolerance and peace."

I can understand a born Muslim wanting to believe that. Afterall, if you're a half decent human being, the only way to cling to Islam is to believe it's something that its scriptures expressly tell us it isn't. But what baffles me is why converts believe it. There are plenty of other candidates that genuinely offer love, peace and tolerance, why not check out a few of those? Or why not simply embrace a minimalist kind of Christianity, as has been the traditional route for disenchanted Catholics? Or if it's certainty you're after, Evangelicalism is doing a roaring trade - you get the last laugh in the herafter, but at least you're not waging Jihad and institutig Shariah in the here and now.

Redwine:

Let's make a deal and concentrate on defending our culture. O.K.?

As to the "Fountainhead" surely you jest. I read it when I was 13 and thought it was grand. May I suggest you read some real literature like Tolstoy. While the Foundtainhead is not utterly devoid of good ideas, it is generally regarded the favorite source of philosophy for the "just post teenager set." Having left the intellectual shelter of Mom and Dad the new post-teenager looks for something to claim as his/her own philosophy. There it sits---the Fountainhead. It is practically a law of nature that every young adult discovers the Foundtainhead and thinks that it answers life's questions or solves society's problems.

Again, the Foundtainhead is NOT WITHOUT a few good ideas, but, a comprehensive philosophy it aint.

Here's a good one for you Redwine, try to use Ayn Rand to solve the problem of suffering. She can't and she doesn't. I suggest that meditating on the problem of suffering will be much more productive.

As to intellectual quality, my I suggest that YOU familiarize yourself with GENUINELY deep literature such as the Pascal, Dante, Shakespeare, Blake, Milton, Tolstoy, Pushkin, Dostoyvesky, Faulkner and a hundred more literary geniuses inspired by GOD and drop this silly little adolescent devotion to Ayn Rand. Virtually everybody grows out of her by age 30.

Again, the fact that you have nothing of greater value than Ayn Rand to point to proves my point.I have the King James Bible, Shakespeare, Pascal, Milton, Dante, and many, many more GENUINE GENIUSES who were inspired by Judaism or Christianity. Whom do you have? Ayn Rand, super.Thin gruel that. I guarantee you that old Ayn will not see you through the troubles to come, for that you need God. Atheists have nothing to help them through the inevitiable suffering of this life, their only answer must be suicide when things get bad. Atheism is essentially, in the end, nihilistic and the culture of death.

Again, Redwin, I challenge you to produce architecture matching Notre Dame or St. Peters. I challenge you to produce art matching Michaelangelo. I challenge you to produce music matching Bach, Handel, Beethoven, Mozart. I callenge you to produce poetry matching John Donne, Milton, Tolstoy and Dostoyvesky (sp.?) I challenge you to produce a charitable hospital started by an atheist. I challenge you to produce a school for poor children started by an atheist.

I challenge you to refute the centrality of atheism to Communism. Atheism was understood by the founders and creators of Communism to be the very core of Communism. The rejection of God, of salvation, of the concept of a fallable and flawed humanity and the replacement of the NEW MAN created by society and capable of perfection.No, Redwine, you have alot of reading and living to do yet. Talk to me in ten years.

God is more majestic than anything you are capable of imagining or comprehending, and it is GOD who can transform the ordinary dreck of our lives into something transcendent and eternally beautiful.

If I were an atheist I would commit suicide. What do you live for? How much can you consume? AFter you have consumed a sample of everything what is there left to live for?

I have God's magnificence to inspire me on my darkest days, what do you have? An anticipation of more consumption? More pleasure? All consumption and all pleasure eventually grows stale, in fact, it grows stale rather quickly.

No, Redwin, Ayn Rand's philosophy is a thin gruel that attempts to transform a single reaasonably good, but limited idea into a philosophy of life. Good luck, if you live long enough you'll see what I mean.

God Bless.

Golani:

It simply is NOT TRUE that "every person" will find a partner under Islam.

In Saudi Arabia there exists a class of poor working class men than cannot find wives. Why? Rich men who can afford many wives take more than their share, taking women that otherwise would have married poorer men.

When a man is allowed more than ONE WIFE, there is another MAN who has NO WIFE. Boys and girls are still produced in roughly equal numbers by natural reproductive means, polygamy skews the results and creates an imbalance.

Philiph35

I stand corrected, somehow I thought that Mozart did a Missa Solemnis also. I don't claim to be an expert on music, you probably know more.

Much of the greatest, most complex, most sophisticated, and most moving music was inspired by God. Redwine have never been able to match my examples, because there are none.

If any one go through the western Islamic convert's past religion,it will be mostly Roman Catholicism. Evangelists or to that matter,any Protestant Christian never ever dare to covert to Islam. This is mainly due to the strong foudantion they put in a Protestant Christian's mind. But I find the Late Catholic Pope himself Kissed publicly the Koran. That means accepting whatever it says.Even the vatican says that there is little difference between Islam and Catholicism. So naturally cathoics are not worried when they switch over to Islam.But most of them dont know that Islam is a ONE WAY trafic religion. Once you embrace it,you cannot renounce it. Eighter you will be under home arrest,or get killed. These women should see the true life story film"Not without my dauther'.

Dr. Pepper:

You write:

But we have no choice but to steer clear of Supremacists of all stripes, whether religious or atheist, and forge into the selva oscura of our middle age trusting in the light within enough to give God credit for making us this way, enough light to see we are good and decent -- not so zealously, fiercely good that we try to stamp out all growth in the name of pruning away our wayward wood; nor so good and decent that we refuse to prevent invaders patiently planting forest fires among us.

America has already done, that. Although not perfect, America has the best record of intellectual freedom and harmony among the religions. I don't deny some very bad periods and some very bad incidents, but, really, Americans accept persons of just about any religions faith as long as they obey the law and are good citizens.

It is Islam that can't get along with others, today. Islam is implicated in disputes in:
France
England
Morroco
Tunisia
Turkey
All over the Middle East
Russia
Thailand
Indonesia
Malaysia
Nigeria
Sudan
Kenya

and many more places. The Christian world, TODAY, is marked by a "live and let live" appraoch. Mohammed taught that "Islam will dominate and not be dominated." He wasn't kidding. This is an uncompromising attitude that does not allow a truly tolerant society. It isn't tolerant if everything has to be done the Muslim way.

Redwine: ATHEISTIC TRANSCENDENCE IS AN OXYMORON

You write:

Anyone who loves life reaches for higher things, whether they have a belief in God or not

I reply:
There are no "higher things" to an atheist. The very definition of atheist is someone who does not believe that there are "higher things."What, exactly, are those HIGHER THINGS that people who "love life" reach for EVEN though they do not believe in God? One example, please.

Atheists love life? That's news. It is the atheists who push for abortion and euthanasia. They want to put an end to inconvenient life: the unborn, the troublesome elderly, the inconvenient wife in a coma. They make movies glorifying the decision of a young disabled woman to kill herself rather than working to find meaning in life as a disabled person. (Millon Dollar Baby). They want to take defenseless life, a human embryo, and use it like an object for medical research. It has NO VALUE to them. You have NO VALUE TO THEM, Redwine, not if your death is CONVENIENT or USEFUL.

The entire concept of "sanctity of life" is religious. It is founded on the Judeao-Christian idea that we are made in the image of God. The concept that human life has special value is religious. To an atheist you live as long as you are convenient for society,after that you are a goner.

There is no reason for an atheist to accept less for himself and give to others. That would be an irrational act. There is no reason for an atheist to do anything but look for more pleasure in life. Post-christian art attacks and denies the VERY CONCEPT OF BEAUTY. Post-modernism attacks and denies the very concept of transcendence.

Again, Redwine, the very concept of "atheistic transcendence" is an oxymoron.

"Athena and Redwine,

"Fascinating dialogue. It's resolution is vital. Can the non-religious and the Christians unite to save Western civilization?"

Cornelius, anyone who values human life, which cannot exist without freedom, whether they be of religious bent or atheist, will band together to fight and defeat a common enemy, but once that fight is over the rift between the religious and the atheist will remain. Contrary to what others say above, and particularly contrary to what Athena says about the Fountainhead (She puts it down with ad hominem and derisive dismissal as opposed to examining and dissecting the ideas)a movement against "Faith" will still exist in a free society.

Athena, although I'd love to, I don't have time to spend on this right now, but I will quickly say this. YOU MAKE ME ANGRY. You say this, about me:

"There are no "higher things" to an atheist. The very definition of atheist is someone who does not believe that there are "higher things."

The music of Beethoven is higher than the music of the Sex Pistols (if you can actually call it music). The woman I love is higher than the lazy slob down the road from me. There are many things that are higher to me than other things.

My standard is life, the life of the human individual, and that which raises it up is the higher, and that which drags it down to the swamps and sewers is the lower. I feel for higher and lower things just as passionately as any God fearing soul, perhaps more so even. So please don't speak on my behalf and cast me to the lower rungs because I have no belief in something for which there is absolutely zero evidence.

P.S. You can tell from the tone of my post that I am angry. I might be angry, but I am friendly :-)

Well, it´s interesting seeing that some people begin to see the problem, I would like to answer the Rafia´s comments, in any moment The Catholic Church says that it´s similar to islam, this is a huge lie, well, The Pope kissed the Koran, and? but The same Pope baptised like a catholic, a muslim woman from Tunisia in St Peter´s cathedral, this isn´t a symbol of anti-dhirmitude. I think so.
It´s a fact that it was the catholicism who was saved Europe from being muslim, The Cid, Jean Sobieski, Charles I, Charles Martel, John of Austria, and many others like Mr Sebastian king of Portugal were catholics. In addition James I, king of Aragon, Pope Urban II and many others were catholics.
But what is the problem? the problem is the people has lost faith for their richness, they are materialistic and think that God isn´t necessary. Well, later, they have problems, and some of them, believe that islam is the solution, why? for several things, in first question, the divorce, why? we live in a divorce society, and islam encourage the divorce. In second question, the great "coherence" of many muslims, I have seen few catholics that don´t use pills or condoms, and many abort. Sadly it´s like that. And many muslims are very coherent. And the coherency is good for many.
Another reason, is the freedom isn´t very well used. Many times, I have the same problem, the freedom like the democracy is a pretty gift but very bad used. And many times, we think like the robot is I robot, that is better being guided.
In the last three centuries the Catholic Church has been attacked without piety for all the intelectuals and other people. The jesuits, Opus Dei, Legionaries of Christ and others, all have been criticised.
Sadly, we don´t listen many critics to religions like anglicanism and the main protestantism cults, why? because they offer what the intelectuals want, all we fancy.
Now Europe is being destroyed, the demography is a disaster, morally it´s a sick society, relativism, all religions are the same and others. And it´s very difficult to build another time a building. In the old roman Empire it costs centuries and martyrs, now we are bad too.
Does Europe fall? Of course, the main battle, is what will be the substitute.
Cardinal Biffi, a very powerful cardinal and one of the better intelectuals of our times, said some years ago a powerful message, Europe will be christian of it will be muslim. Atheism is auto-destructive, you can see Greece, Rome, marxist states and others, all falls.
Like an european and catholic, I recommend to all people, several things
1) Be hopeful, We will win, the relativism will fall, but we can the sucessor, not islam.
2) Be proud of your christian convictions and spread the Gospel, many times, with words, but like St Francis of Assisi said with works mainly.
3) Fight for their rights and freedom, don´t be lazy, without freedom speech, expression, demonstration and others, we will live in a nazi-marxist regime or a islamist regime, very bad two of them.
4) Pray, pray a lot, because only with a democracy, the human rights aren´t spreaded. It´s necessary the erradication of islam. But Islam, only will live with the suicide morally and culturally western. Do you think that in the former centuries, a country like Saudi Arabia or Iran will be respected and catalogued like "moderate regime" in the first case or a "revolution" in the second.
Greetings

The woman initially featured in this article has not walked too far in becoming a Muslim... Ms. Fallot has traded her own native culture, one which often teaches its citizenry to hate and despise everything about their Western culture, for a culture which universally teaches its adherents to hate and despise everything about Western culture... No, she hasn't travelled far at all... And, for us, this realization should be frightening...

She also has stepped into a way of life which provides far more predictability than her former life did... Whereas, in her native culture, she was free to question, criticise, and object, by becoming a Muslim she has unburdened herself of these options, exchanging them, and the responsibilities which came from being free, for a set of rigid rules, rigid predictability, and a winning recipe for dominating and erasing superior cultures and true world religions...

Do you imagine that Islam will ever manifest the same kind of post-modern deconstructionism rife in the West -- one which permits and promotes the notions among the ummah to question, deride, and even hate their Islamic "culture"? It will NEVER happen... NEVER... And this, my friends, is only one reason why they might win... and why I view Islam as the most horrific enemy of everything I hold dear... They CAN win... They CAN destroy us utterly...

Islam is loathe to release any person or any territory from its monotonous iron grip -- yet we in the West seem to revel in exploiting and widening the rifts and fissures which exist in our culture -- we seem to delight in a perverse tearing down of our shared heritage, and to denigrate, deflate, and defame our former heroes icons and institutions...

Thos. Jefferson -- no longer taught to young students to be one of the most inspiring erudite and brilliant humanists in history, but a deplorable slave owner, and a sneaking father of black progeny by his chattel slave...

George Washington -- no longer the Father of the Greatest Nation, but a slave owning hypocrite, a marginal general, a fortunate opportunist...

Repeated and staggering American sacrifices in the 20th Century -- no longer depicted as the irrefutable record of the Greatest Nation ever to exist to first fight and defeat the forces of evil and fascism and then lift and inspire hundreds of millions of the world's denizens from abject poverty, backwardness, and hatred , but a greedy corrupt imperialist power bent on world domination and hegemony... No craven accusation hateful enough to slander her with, no infamous deed she isn't responsible for, no insult, no slander, no vitriol she doesn't deserve...

And the Really amusing thing here...?

This dialogue is able to take place.

Won't find it in islam.

Athena, you are a goddess! *wink*

Atheism, like poverty, is the default state of man. Everyone is born an atheist. Perhaps that's where the ludicrous idea of "original sin" comes from.

Not everyone who does not believe in a supernatural entity of the god-type is an atheist. Atheists debate the question, which is a form of conferring meaning or legitimacy to the question. Logically a proposition(if it was a real proposition, instead of a psuedo-proposition)cannot have two opposing truths, either the believer is right or the atheist is right. But since there is no real reason to ask the question in the first place, because the only things we can really prove( not absolutely,or forever) exists in the "physical world", and there is no physical evidence or verifiable observation-experience that would lead to the question having validity beyond an emotional level. Which removes it from the true or false realm.

I don't have a problem with what people believe unless it effects me. And I also have no doubt that Christianity has a rational-logical basis for most of its ideas about how best to live.
The best thing Christians could do is show the rational-logical basis for the ideas they have, and that means leaving God out of it. If they can't do that, well, then they have lazy minds.

Moral beliefs are triggered by emotion, they become emotional expressions(as in religious, and secular), they are therefore subjective, and that is not the place to make an argument. The place to make the argument is from what springs from those beliefs, what is the desired effect of the action or behavior that was inspired by the belief, what are the real consequences, are there unintended consequences,etc ?? These things can be determined and judged.

I have seen so many idiotic "Christian"(and others) representatives on the media debating such and such issue, and they start quoting the bible or talking about "God", it's like, what the f-ck?, THERE ARE LOGICAL RATIONAL REASONABLE REASONS THAT CAN BE EXPRESSED THAT SUPPORT YOUR POSITION!! Use them!!
I suppose the media sets it up that way though. The MSM sucks.

http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/notebooks/logical-positivism.html

This one's better:
http://www.answers.com/topic/logical-positivism

redwine: "My standard is life, the life of the human individual, and that which raises it up is the higher, and that which drags it down to the swamps and sewers is the lower. I feel for higher and lower things just as passionately as any God fearing soul, perhaps more so even. So please don't speak on my behalf and cast me to the lower rungs because I have no belief in something for which there is absolutely zero evidence."

As an ex-Catholic who has made the journey that so many westerners have over the past several generations "out of" religion, I understand the sentiment expressed. I get the sense that many westerners like myself who have left christianity, have the basic sense that they have a moral compass that doesn't require religion. We just all naturally understand that all human beings are precious and that it makes perfect sense to love one another and to treat eachother with the sort of respect and tolerance that is so widespread in the west.

But as Athena points out: "The entire concept of "sanctity of life" is religious. It is founded on the Judeao-Christian idea that we are made in the image of God. The concept that human life has special value is religious."

I get the impression that what has happened is that the children of Judeo-Christian civilization have so thouroughly absorbed its values that they imagine that those values somehow just subsist within them sort of naturally. So they have thrown off as "childish" the very traditions that made it possible for those values they take as a given, to have been passed down to them in the first place.

To some extent, I think the west has a language problem. It's considered quite normal to talk about the superiority of secularism but it's embarassing to quote the Bible and "render unto Caesar...". It's considered normal to talk about love and tolerance but embarassing to quote, "Whatever you do to the least of my brothers..." and so on. Everyone is familiar with the widespread mockery of Red State Christians who actually dare to quote the Bible but the same elites who mock such people think nothing of gushing about tolerance and love of the poor. Frankly, this strikes me as totally disingenuous.

I'm not so sure that the west has wandered as far from its Judeo-Christian ground as we are led to believe - even the so-called liberal elites who seem on the surface so intent on tearing it down. I suspect it's more that we've been shamed into embarassment at openly using it's traditional language. And in this respect I recall the centrality of Vatican II and converting mass into lay dialects. Interesting that language played such a critical role in Vatican II. I guess what I'm trying to clumsily express is that the west may not be as far gone as we think. In many respects, i think the average westerner is closer to the basic example and message of Jesus Christ than perhaps anyone has ever been. I see no reason for that to ring the death knell of western civilization. Rather, I think we should stop being shamed into avoiding public expressions of the Judeo-Christian roots that so many secularists seem intent on pushing (as they rather arrogantly though disingenuously, imagine themselves to be quite beyond such childish illusions). I don't know, maybe we ought to build a few cathedrals and bring back some Latin masses.:-)

Uhhh Kentim - just noticed somewhat belatedly that my entire post was in direct contradiction to yours!

"The best thing Christians could do is show the rational-logical basis for the ideas they have, and that means leaving God out of it. If they can't do that, well, then they have lazy minds."

I'll have to get back to you after I've brushed up on my Thomas Aquinas, or whoever the hell it was I should have been paying closer attention to when I was getting my Catholic education back in the 70's and 80's. I do recall though that those blokes were no strangers to reason.:-)

Athena,

"America has already done, that. Although not perfect, America has the best record of intellectual freedom and harmony among the religions."

I know that. That was my point. I was calling for modern Westerners to stay the course of the modern secular experiment, rather than hark back to a Christendom that fell apart not by accident but after centuries of discussion, reasoned argument, heated emotions, conflict, strife and violence.

In a way, our current secular adventure into the unknown future is a great extension, evolution, of Christendom, as most Christians (unlike most Muslims) have learned to grow up, and grow out of, the immaturity of sociopolitical triumphalism and the hypostatic dogmatism necessary to maintain it.

Susanp,
If you don't want to have "mix" with people
who aren't whites, that's your right, but you
certainly are a racist. Are you another one of
these Lord Lucan BNP trolls, or an American
variant?

For me anyways, white as I am, Islam is the
problem. I'd rather all my descendants are
not white and NOT MUSLIM than aryan muslims.
I don't see much point in confusing the issue,
though I do agree that an undiscriminating
multiculturalism (note the qualifier) has
weakened us.

Posted by: American at December 27, 2005 01:31 AM

I would suggest that you re-read what I wrote. You obviously didn't "get" it.

Based upon some of the remarks made about my earlier post, I must say that some people either don't pay attention very well, or are so hopelessly infected with PC disease that they are terrified to acknowledge that the world's people are divided into distinct races. Go ahead, spit it out. After all, it is the truth!

I hate to tell you, but there exist in this world various and distinct races of people. I have never denigrated any of them. In fact, race is far less relevant to me than to those who would play God by attempting to re-engineer humanity into one homogenous, brown breed of people.

My point, lost on some, is that I rather like things the way they are. Some things, human cloning for example, should be left alone. Likewise race engineering.

I don't understand why anyone is misunderstanding SusanP.

She's not saying what She believes.

She is saying what some on the PC Left would like to see happen.

I can no longer find the site I once read, but here is One minor example:

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/killwhite

Hi Caroline,
I guess I'm just looking at it from a strategical or tactical perspective.
The fact is( I think),that logical-rational thought explanations can reach more people,it is more universal, and much less subject to interpretational thought deviations, it is more concrete. Even though there are LOTS of people who call themselves Christian, there is a wide diversity of understanding of the DETAILS of the message or the actual reasoning behind the message.(I don't know if the messengers actually fully understood the reason for a message, I think oftentimes they stumbled onto it accidently). And there is a wide variation of the degree of devotion too, which will also limit the effectiveness of "preaching" a solution in a debate or discussion.

Basically I think evolution can explain why it is best for humanity to love one another and get along, because it helps perpetuate the species. But there are all sorts of ways to put that in practice, and humans being humans, sometime fear or bribery(psychological) were a necessary inducement to influence civilized behavior, and that's where I think religion comes in.

Kentim: "The fact is( I think),that logical-rational thought explanations can reach more people,"

You mean logical-rational explanations like this?:

"The metaphysical distinctive of neo Thomism may be found in its insistence on the maxim that "existence precedes essence." For that reason Maritain has claimed that Thomism is the original existentialism. Put simply, this means that one has to know that something exists before one knows what it is, and before one knows that something exists, one has to accept that anything exists. This latter conviction is not the result of a rational deduction; it is an immediate awareness. Thus the act of being, apprehended in a direct intuition, precedes its various modalities.

This apprehension of being leads the Thomist to posit the existence of God via the cosmological argument. For even though the reality of being is an inescapable fact, it is not a logically necessary truth. Being exists, but need not exist. Thus being is inherently contingent, and its contingency makes it finite. If it exists in view of having no inherent necessity to do so, it must be caused to exist. Also, the very forms which being assumes are due to the interplay of various causes; and the fact of change, so characteristic of being, must be the result of causal actions as well. Thus being is bounded by causes wherever it appears.

However, since it is a logical absurdity for anything to cause itself, there must be an external cause of being. Now if that cause is also finite, we have not grounded finite being yet, and it still should not exist. A chain of finite causes would carry the same problem with it. Hence the Thomist posits an original uncaused cause of all being, viz. God. It must be noted that this argument is based on the metaphysical necessity for a cause of being, not on a need for explanation, as would be the case with Leibniz's principle of sufficient reason.

The understanding of God as unconditioned necessary existence goes far in providing the basis for Thomistic natural theology. For if God is uncaused, he is unlimited. Then he contains all perfections infinitely; e.g., he is all - good, omnipresent, omniscient, all - loving, perfect person, etc. There can be only one such God, since a God who possesses all perfections cannot differ from any other God who would also possess all the identical possessions. Thus Thomists feel confident that their philosophical arguments concern the same God whom they worship in church."

neo-Thomism

Or maybe that isn't quite what you had in mind? :-)

Uh oh - I have the good sense to know when I'm in over my head! I just brought it up to illustrate that reason has a solid place in the origins of Christian thought and that it isn't all just based on faith, 'fear', 'bribery' and other 'psychological inducements to civilized behavior'.

'and that it isn't all just based on faith, 'fear', 'bribery' and other 'psychological inducements to civilized behavior'.' ~ Caroline

*blinks*

Did I miss nariz in here somewhere?

Redwind, Dr. Pepper, Kentum and Others Friends of Robert Spencer

Anyone who supports the work of Robert Spencer is a friend of freedom and is a friend of mine.

Apolgies to anyone whose feelings I have hurt, that was clumsy and wrong of me. Please forgive.

You are, individually and as a group, a great bunch of people.

Stick with us, Please, Athena. Voices like yours and everyone you mentioned are what makes this forum what it is- something they can never have in a world of islam.

Athena,
I got no problem with you, I am impressed with alot of what you said. I also understand that because of vicious attacks against Christianity in general by various ideological fanatics(in society), sometimes maybe it's easy(and understandable) to be a little over-sensitive, or hyper-sensitive.
But I respect Christ's teachings and believe they have had a positive influence on humanity. And I don't think people are stupid to believe in God.

Caroline,
Hmm,neo-Thomism. I'll have to analyze that someday....Metaphysics are a little too out of this world for my brain at this time.
I have enough problems figuring out if Joe-Blow is telling me the truth(or if I'm telling myself the truth) or taking me for a ride, my truth-seeking is mostly earth-bound.
Yep, and I know most of Christian thought is reasonable;as in behavior and ethics, there is logic too(I think, I'm not a logics expert),but when we get into the metaphysical(speculative,intuitive,supernatural) aspect(God),that's where I get off the bus. I don't believe it's an either-or proposition, I think the human behavioral things advocated by Christ can be explained or reinforced using scientific criteria. Just taking the 10 commandments would be easy to come to a logical conclusion that they are a benefit to humanity(with one exception). They are the "actions", the behavior of which consequences can be evaluated-- what is the desired effect? That people live well? What is the actual effect? Are there unintended consequences? What is the cost-benefit analysis etc,etc.

So, what we have there is indirect support for Christian ethics, from a non-believer in the supernatural "source",(with a different source). It's win-win in a practical sense.

For so long as you good and righteous believers cast this death struggle for civilization in the light of a battle for god.. then sadly, lamentably, we will lose the battle...not necessarily in our lifetime, though things will get worse, much worse, but eventually in the lifetimes of our descendants.

I have three adult children, ll grandchildren and two great grand children and I fear the world that they will inherit.

It is a war that will be won or lost in the bedroom..fecundity is the ultimate decider in a war of demographics.

The only chance of reversing the tide is by emphasizing reason, science not religion.

Muslims aren't and won't convert to Christianity, it is obvious the conversion is going the other way..and for a reason. Islam is concrete and absolute, heaven and hell, more Manichean and simplistic than Judeo Christianity. Easy answers for non thinking people, and believers are not really thinkers...the only hope for the future is education and reason, not a battle for god.

All of the Apostate Muslims that Jihad Watchers love are atheists, not converts to Christianity, they found reason, and in reason is the salvation of the west.

But the comments of people like Athena are a turn off to people of reason..if they don't join the Muslims in some perverse from of sympathy, then in disgust they sit on the side.

For people of reason, the true unbeliever,there are no winners in the battle for god, and it really is (despite your disclaimers and denials) a case of "Heads they win, tails I lose".

And this from a person who probably knows more about (repugnant and repellant) Islam, the Arabs, it's history and practises than any other Jihad Watcher save Mr Spencer and Mr Fitzgerald.

Reason..not a god, is the weapon of victory, and remember there are no winners in the battle for god

wh

Nariz

Relax a bit. The West has a firm grip on "reason." We are the leading proponents of "reason."

As I said earlier, I am more than happy to collaborate with atheists who support Robert Spencer's work.

I fully support intellectual freedom for atheists, heck, I used to be one myself.

The West, by defending its culture, does not threaten reason or the freedom of atheists.

I think the United States has worked out an excellent balance between keeping the government out of the religion (which keeps religion honest) and allowing individuals to choose what to believe or not to believe. You may not be aware of it but the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that there exists something like "freedom from religion" in America.

Unlax, we are O.K. Best wishes