425 cars torched in New Year's unrest in France

President Chirac urges French poeople to fight racism,which,according to him is the main problem,which infuriates the young rioters.
But,the whole Western world knows that the often blamed racism,unemployment,and unequal oppourtunities towards the Arab,and west Afrrican Muslim immigrants are NOT the Real cause of this present hooliganism of burning cars.
It is a cleverly devised plan of Islamists, not living in France,for the ultimate goal of Islamisation of France as a first step in Europe. I wonder,why even the French public are so passive and silent,when Chirac and Sarkozy play willing Dhimmies.

"Diversity is part of our history: It is a resource,'' he said. ''It is an asset for our future."

I'm probably one of the few here who doesn't condem multiculturalism outright, but even I can tell this is an frigging lie. Diversity, as it is understood under multiculturalism, is new, it only been practiced since the 60s in the great majority of Western countries. And diversity as an asset, go tell that to the Russians, Japaneses, Chinese and Arabs. They seem to thrive without it, just like we did before World War II.

I'm a proponent of minority rights. But even I can admit its not a part of our history, it isnt a "ressource", and its too soon to say if its really a strenght, as the race riots and unrest and islamization are starting to weight more than the pros of this philosophy. My blood boil, and I feel my intelligence insulted whenever an official use lies to clean multiculturalism when it has been stained by the rigors of realities.

What an idiot. He justifies their behavior. And he blames the victim(the rest of society).

It's an excuse for Marxist redistribution b.s.
http://members.mountain.net/theanalyticpapers/inequali.htm

Rafia said:

"But,the whole Western world knows that the often blamed racism,unemployment,and unequal oppourtunities towards the Arab,and west Afrrican Muslim immigrants are NOT the Real cause of this present hooliganism of burning cars.
It is a cleverly devised plan of Islamists, not living in France,for the ultimate goal of Islamisation of France as a first step in Europe."

Poverty and frustration are a huge parts of the problems, weither you like it or not. Yes, there is a vicious ideology at work here, thats undeniable, and yes, it doesnt necessarily need poverty to convince the ones believing in it to commit terrorist acts, but it doesnt work as ell if the people are not discontent first. There's not a human on this planet who will willingly raise and fight and die if he's happy and content.

And yes, Saudit Arabia are paying for the construction of Mosque here in the West, and yes, they're heavily influencing what is taught there. Indeed, home-grown imams, shipped to Europe, have tried to guarantee that there will never be a westernized version of Islam, like our tolerant version of Christianity. This fact bordeline the conspiracy theory.

But still, I'd never say there is some sort of orchestrated, intentional grand scheme at work to islamize the West. Even if its true, it sounds crazy and it doesnt help solve the problem. The problem, if there is one, can be dealt with using believable datas we have on hand. There no need to creat, or even prove, an islamist version of 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'. You'll never convince anyone with that kind of theory, and people will rightfully label you a crazy racist.

As I said, the problem, if there is one, is the result of our own liberal policies coupled with an un-westernized Islam. Its as natural as mixing milk with chlorine: crap will fly in the air.

Elliot, read my link, if you dare...

Ah, I was still writting my last post when you posted it, thats why I didnt saw it. And I'll dare to read it, latter, when I come back from town. Because I just looked at my watch, and its beer time. World-wide ihad will have to wait for me to come back.

And, damn, that webpage in your post in long as well. In a few lines, what is it about?

Here's another one:
http://members.mountain.net/theanalyticpapers/

Oh, and by the way, the islamic version of the protocols are called the koran,hadith, and sunna.

It's about reality,rationality, logic, and humans.
Yes, they are very long, and may seem um, intolerant. But that's just cause of P.C. programing---

Chirac and his croonies are the stupid ones! you have several nationalities who are considered poor, but only one main one who are doing the looting, burning and destruction, and they are Muslim! so put them in jail, deport them.. don't put up with this crap, just plain black and white.. no need to look up what a #!@$!@$#!@ shrink has to say, enough of this PC garbage!

Diversity with Muslims ? Ha! Or however you say it en Français...

Yeah -- Muslims come in different colors, and with different cultural backgrounds which seem diverse at first blush... And even rarely our own citizens are known to have fallen prey into the dark trap of Islam -- But the baggage this so-called "diverse" group with their various incarnations of Islam haul around always seems to include a few nasty little items:

-Determination for Islam to eventually rule over all...
-Fixation on the notion that the "laws" of Islam trump the Laws of Man...
-Determination to spread Islam, whether through violence, lies,
and intimidation, whenever and however they might...
-Distorting true cultural histories in order to eradicate "un-Islamic" or pre-Islamic pasts -- in other words, sand blasting and obliterating true "diversity" in the name of Islam in exchange for the monotonous wasteland of Islam...
-Worship of a false and murderous "Prophet"...

Tolerating the Muslim fascist in our midst isn't a show of diversity -- It's a show of insanity -- and act of suicide -- a show of cultural weakness and reticence to defend our culture against an assault by a determined and ruthless Islamic enemy -- An enemy who is clearly engaged in an onslaught on everything we hold dear in order to destroy us, and make the ground ready for their dominion over us...

Tolerating this hellish religion and the "diverse" but always hateful and shame-based cultures which thrive in Islam is folly -- pur et simple!

Many hold America up as an example of a pluralistic and Democratic society which has successfully absorbed its Muslim population -- but does any SANE person doubt that if their numbers reached the saturation they now enjoy in France, Germany, and the Netherlands that we, too, would now be feted by their party ways, and their celebratory manner in which they protest and bring in the New Year?

NO!

If we allow their population to explode to similar levels as we see in Europe -- HAVE NO DOUBT -- they would feel secure enough in the American heartland to begin the next phase of their "Jihad" -- the one which they openly wage now in European capitals -- the one they now believe they can win...

Muslims must GO! We must begin expelling them as soon as possible.

Happy New Year!

It just amazes me that the burning of 425 cars in one night is seen as nothing new or shocking, while Western Europe looks down its nose at crime and racial disparities in the US.

"...while Western Europe looks down its nose at crime and racial disparities in the US...."

I can't tell you how many times I've almost come to blows listening to lectures from various (mainly French) Europeans about "American racism" and her crimes of slavery in the distant past... Yet where else in the world is every race, every culture, every religion, and every language present, and able to exist in relative peace? America is still a shining beacon for her tolerance, her generosity, and her nobility...

Compare our record with any of the rapine, cowardly and dastardly European records -- They project their hatreds onto us in much the same manner as their new Muslim overlords... Europe spends almost nothing on her own defense, and now has come to believe in the fantasy that there is no need for defense, or that national boundaries are merely some antic notion from a primitive bygone era... They are DOPES over there... Complete DOPES!

Shinolite,
it is amazing to me also
but you see
that is depth,hundreds of cars,
what a waste,and
this is the danger of multi-cultural pc
for crime is what the mohammedans do,
in any culture not their own,
and sometimes even their own,
they burn, they rape, they steal,
they feel nothing for the kafir
but disdain and hate.
What fools they are
and when they see,
it will be too late.

Kentim - I've noticed several of your Kocher links. His articles provide a pretty devastating critique of modern liberalism. The bulk of his articles used to be collected at a site called Laissez Faire Electronic Times. I was working my way through them about a year ago I guess (printing them out because they were so long), when suddenly the site went down. So thanks very much for providing that link with so many of his articles. IIRC, he mentioned in one of his articles that he was ill. I don't recall seeing anything by him in the last few years and sometimes wonder what happened to him.

Of course how long before the usual islamist apologists ams Islamic "spokesmen" so numerous in France warn that the reporting of such mayhem will cause a "backlash against the Islamic community?"
And then the usual plethora of excuses from the French press who jump to attention at such warnings of impending victimisation.

How soon before we see this type of Headline from the Left wing press--
Muslim community leaders warn of racist backlash that may ensue from NEXT WEEK'S jihadist attacks on the Paris metro?

Hi Caroline,

I'm glad to help get you reconnected to RLK. I too was dismayed at the L.F.E.T. site going down, I was a little suspicious about it for awhile.
But I was able to contact Mr. Kocher by e-mail last spring, I just wanted to thank him for his efforts, and I wondered what happened to his material. He told me he did not know what happened to the other site, but he told me to keep on linking to his stuff at other sites.

I left for the Idaho Rockies shortly after, which was supposed to be a permanent move, but I changed my mind for the time-being,,, anyways, I came back and got online about 2 months ago and found his new site. It appears that at the bottom there is an (recent)update in progress, so hopefully Mr. Kocher is doing well. I'll probably try to contact him again one of these days.

And I'll keep linking.
Though I know the PC programing or party loyalty(mind-slavery)will cause most to recoil from what he says. He ain't perfect, but he's damn good.

If mister Kocher is good? You can say that again. His text is an hard bullet to bit for me. Its very interesting, thanks.

But still, I'd never say there is some sort of orchestrated, intentional grand scheme at work to islamize the West. Even if its true, it sounds crazy and it doesnt help solve the problem. The problem, if there is one, can be dealt with using believable datas we have on hand. There no need to creat, or even prove, an islamist version of 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'. You'll never convince anyone with that kind of theory, and people will rightfully label you a crazy racist.

Posted by Elliott

We don't need an Islamist version of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to prove that there is an "orchestrated, intentional, grand scheme at work to Islamicize the West." The doctrine of Islam clearly explicates Islam's manifest destiny, which is to dominate the world.

Islam's canonical texts are pure filth and blasphemy as far as I am concerned, but muslims take them quite seriously. It is every muslim's duty to "spread Islam." It is every muslim's duty to participate in jihad to "spread Islam."
Any muslim cleric will tell you that Islam must dominate and not be dominated. Muslims believe that Islam will not only conquer the west, but the entire world.

And by the way, it is not "racist" to point out the fact that Islam is a predatory death cult that sanctions every heinous atrocity known to man. Islam is not a "race" so we couldn't be "racists." We could be "Islamophobes", the opposite of syncophantic, mendacious apologists/appeasers. According to the multiculturalists, only bigots make moral judgments (against the cult from Hell) because there is no evil in the world and all religions and cultures are equal. Whatever---at least we're not ignorant moral relativists who have been programmed for self-destruction. Only the strong and well-informed survive. Believe what you want, but there are no deluded conspiracy theorists here.

425 cars in one night.

This is running into money, isn't it?
What are auto insurance rates in France, anyway?

All those Citroens and Renaults... kinda disposable. ;)

Darn those "rowdy revelers." Did they leave burning bags of sh*t on doorsteps too?

''Diversity is part of our history: It is a resource,'' he said. ''It is an asset for our future.''

Yeah Jacques, maybe if you keep repeating that they'll let you live there after they take over. For a modest fee...

Kentim,

Has Kocher written about Noam Chomsky? I'd love to see his take on him.

Wasn't the "diversity" of the Nazis marching over the Maginot Line wonderful?

(Does "Chirac" mean anything in French? My guess would be something like "Quisling")

All they'll have to do in the land of 286 cheeses is add little crescents to all their white flags-in-waiting and the "rowdy reveller" problem will be solved.)

Kentim-

Touche! with the 'Protocols' = Koran riposte.
Although " Koran = Mein Kampf " would work as well (as I and Ms. Fallaci agree).

The fact that people still compare this subject with multicultural PC is totally beyond me.
For XXX and for all..
Europe was and is never multucultural nor PC !!
Europe is the opposite of political correctnes !!
Europe is just a monocultural antisemitic islamising craphole in favor of appeasing only muslims..just as bad as any islamic dumphole.
Political correctnes strives for a MULTIcultural society.
Europe dares to talk openly on their MSM about multicultural society when they talk ONLY about muslims and islam.
Of all the media in Europe, especially the Dutch networks fall in this trap again and again and again..
Zeropeans have an unbelievably very shallow view on multiculturalism.

Man, it just goes to show that Muslim immigrants are the worst immigrants on earth. I knew the Balkanization of Europe would be starting, but I didn't realize how far it had already progressed.

~Leo Buchignani

Susanp, I think I didn't made myself clear, I'm sorry.

Concerning the théory of a supposed worlwide islamist movement out to get us, again, let me repeat: I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm not saying there is, or isn't, some sort of orchestrated, intentional grand scheme at work to islamize the West

All I'm saying is this: You are free to believe whatever you want, but in my eyes, this idea, this théory of global islamist conspiracy is rubbish because the only people it will convince are those who already are convinced. Liberals, and most moderated westerners, wont buy it. They wont buy it because you would have to prove that the Koran really urge worldwide convertion (which it does anyway), and that all muslims, even in the West, live by the book (which, by the way, isn't true, which is also totaly unprovable).

All in all, I dont like this worlwide jihadish théory because it wont convince a libral that his philosophy of moral equivalence and tolerance is failing. It isnt a credible idea. An idea may be true, but its useless if it fails to convince a sizable part of the population. Did Pim Fortuyn needed any conspiracy théory to bring his party 20% of national votes, when his main political platform was anti-muslims? No. But it worked.

So this is what I was getting at. the idea of a worldwide jihadist movement may be true, false, I dont know. But it isn't convincing, and thus, useless.

"425 vehicles overnight in scattered New Year's Eve unrest that has become an annual problem in troubled neighborhoods, the national police chief said Sunday"

An anual problem? They've been burning cars since late November, hitting peaks as high as 3,000 or more a night. Seems to me 425 cars burned was a slow day.

Poor, deprived, misfits. They have nothing to do, that's the problem. While the monthly Dhimmi payments are more than enough to buy the latest fashion trends, all the 'halal'goat meat they can eat, and the free, dhimmi supplied housing is far better than what the common peasantry lives in, plus all the free education they could want should they choice to better themselves, this just isn't enough. They are bored. Work? what for? I sure wouldn't work either if I had everything I needed given to me. Only a fool would work for less.

The drug trade gets boring for them as well. Shooting other drug dealers who try invade their turf gets boring. Besides, that's sort of like work.

No, the best thing to do when they are bored, feeling rejected, is to go out and cut up and rape women for not wearing a burka. Harrass people, knock over some headstones from brave American hero liberators, burn down a few schools and synagogues, Pehaps a police station or two just for laughs, and torch cars. Torching cars is the most fun, because it quickly ties up all the police and fire departments, and that leaves an unhappy rejected muslim youth free to light as many as possible until he just gets too tired and hungry.

Then the next morning they can giggle while watching the French news broadcasters psycho- anylizing the whole situation. Spin offs are- increases in the monthly dhimmi check, even better free dhimmi supplied housing, lifelong scholarships to all French universities, and first choice for any job should they ever want one.

France has gone far beyond surrendering. They dhimmi is just amusement, a toy to play with anyway the Jihadists see's fit.
If I were a frenchman, I'd apply for refugee status in another country, not that anyone would want one.

Elliot,

"you would have to prove that the Koran really urge worldwide convertion (which it does anyway)"

The Koran not only urges worldwide conversion, it also urges worldwide subjugation of all non-Muslims who will not convert, as well as the mass-murder of all non-Muslims who will not submit to that subjugation.

"and that all muslims, even in the West, live by the book (which, by the way, isn't true, which is also totaly unprovable)."

Here's the crux of your argument. Even it is isn't true -- that all Muslims, even in the West, live by the Koran -- it doesn't matter: for the most part, for our own self-defense, we must rationally behave as though it does, for this very simple reason: We Infidels cannot tell the difference between --

1) the Muslims who are living by the book now (and effectively cloaking that by acting moderate) and

2) those who are really not living by the book.

Furthermore, we Infidels cannot tell the difference between --

1) those Muslims who are really not living by the book now but may at any indeterminate point in the future begin to live by the book, and

2) those Muslims who are not now nor ever in the future will be living by the book.

The danger posed by this necessary lack of knowledge we Infidels have is too great to avoid treating all of Islam as a potential threat. It's the only rational thing to do. I agree, however, that the PC West is gravely hampering our ability to do what is rational. But that's no reason to stop telling the truth and trying to be rational.

"Did Pim Fortuyn needed any conspiracy théory to bring his party 20% of national votes, when his main political platform was anti-muslims? No. But it worked."

Pim Fortuyn may have won votes, but he was demonized as a "racist" and "Islamophobe", and then he was assassinated by a crazy Leftist who expressly stated that he killed Pim in order to "protect Muslims". Then a few years later, a Dutch Muslim who was part of an amorphous Muslim cell murders Theo Van Gogh and threatens other major Dutch politicians. Meanwhile, major Dutch politicians have to have round-the-clock guards to protect them from murderous Muslims. All the while, a black African Muslim woman who dares to condemn Islam is constantly labeled as a "right winger" and "Islamophobe" and rarely gets the media attention she deserves. And she too, as member of Dutch parliament, has to be guarded (and even had to leave the country for her safety). And after all this, the Dutch people did not rise up and shut down all mosques and kick out all Muslims, as they should have if the PC Leftist rot hadn't infected their political psyche by now.

I hardly would say this shows "it worked".

More hogwash from the Chirac regime.

When African and Muslim youths take to the streets of Paris to express their hatred and contempt for whites, France, and the West in general, the power elites blame the ensuing violence on "racism," "lack of opportunity," "frustration," "hopelessness," etc.

But, when Australian youths take to the streets to defend themselves from violent Muslim settlers, the power elites blame the ensuing violence on "white mobs," "neo-nazis," "white racism," etc.

Why the double-standard? Either way, white people lose. Perhaps that is the real aim here.

The more unstable Western countries become (through the chaos and violence caused by mass non-white immigration and multiculturalism), the more justification the elites will have for imposing authoritarian/totalitarian rule.

The struggle for the liberation of the West is now.

The French are the biggest wimps of Europe. They don't have a spine left to confront the "youths" of France who are setting France ablaze each night. This would NEVER be tolerated in the United States.

The shouts of " Allah Akhbar " ring out in the streets of France each night while the "youths" going on their violent sprees. And yet this religious cry falls on deaf ears throughout France.

But don't tell that to the politically correct French people. According to them, the real cause of this whole mess is not the " youths " who don't want to learn how to speak French or attend French schools. The cause is the French people who are racist and not inclusive enough to a group of religious people who quite simply DON'T WANT TO INTEGRATE.

Rather than believe that Islam is the cause of these problems, the French have decided to shower these Muslim enclaves with money- lots of it- all in the hope that these Muslims will magically become secular minded Frenchmen.

I have to laugh at this one. The French are so stupid.

Elliot,

The Muslim Brotherhood is the co-ordinating force in this. Across those that carry out terrorism and those that do not. Do some research on the Project, I think its real...

Elliot: "An idea may be true, but its useless if it fails to convince a sizable part of the population."

Most people would probably not be convinced of the truthfulness of the following (not in the absence of education on the matter at least):

Fg=Gm1m2/r2

Ergo, Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation is useless according to your reasoning. Which makes it quite plain where mankind is likely headed in a postmodern world, where truth and falseness are made contingent on popular opinion.

''Diversity is part of our history..."
So is surrendering and rolling over on your back every time France is threatened.

sheik yer'mami wrote :

« Its not 'conspiracy theory' we are debating here, its Islamo-fascism at work, a strategy based on da'wa, obfuscation, intimidation, bribes, blackmail, huge amounts of money given to universities like Georgetown and Harvard to 'beautify' Islam, etc. etc.”

Sir, if that’s not a conspiracy you’re talking about, I don’t know what a conspiracy is.

“Stick around, read up on history and understand the context. You will find that there are no 2 ways about it: JW/DW is probably the best website in the world to learn about what we're up against.”

But yeah, I’ll keep sticking around. I just hope I’m not bothering and angering too many people with my crazy senseless lefty “cognitive dissonance”.

Caroline wrote :

« Most people would probably not be convinced of the truthfulness of the following (not in the absence of education on the matter at least):
Fg=Gm1m2/r2
Ergo, Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation is useless according to your reasoning. Which makes it quite plain where mankind is likely headed in a postmodern world, where truth and falseness are made contingent on popular opinion”
Exactly. Newton’s Universal Law of Gravitation is utterly useless, its complete rubbish. Its nothing. Except, of course, to those few who understand it and work with it. But to me, and most people, “Fg=Gm1m2/r2 " is nothing but a bunch of random numbers and letters, and it has nothing to do with gravity.
But gravity will continue working for me as it did before, even if people don’t understand how it works, even if they don’t believe or notice it. And you don’t need that formula to prove gravity is at work. You can make people understand with simpler proofs.
But in the context of global jihad, if you’re to deal with it, if you’re to create a viable answer to the problem, you need to make people understand. You need to get liberals or moderate individuals to admit their system isn’t working. You need to point out flaws in their multicultural system. You need to create an argument that will make people understand that. And its never going to happens if you talk about the global, orchestrated islamization movement, and it certainly never going to happen if you generalise and put all muslims in the same bag with fundamentalists, as Dr. Pepper suggested. He is right when he said that we’re unable to distinguish between moderate, westernized muslims and the bad apples, but in my opinion, the solution isn’t to generalize. That turns people off and it makes you look suspicious. The solution is to look somewhere else for proofs that there is a problem. And as time pass; credible proofs are poping-up everywhere in the world.
Global jihad doesn’t need to be real or imagined, it needs to be believable, or else, its useless, to me anyway. When I say something doesn’t matter if the people don’t believe in it, I’m not making anything up. Its called sophism.
Dr. Pepper wrote:
“The danger posed by this necessary lack of knowledge we Infidels have is too great to avoid treating all of Islam as a potential threat. It's the only rational thing to do. I agree, however, that the PC West is gravely hampering our ability to do what is rational. But that's no reason to stop telling the truth and trying to be rational.”
The PC West is gravely hampering our ability, you say? Christ, its making any popular opinion impossible to criticize. Totalitarisme never died, if turned to the left. It seems to me that if the Muslim problem is to be dealt with, it must be done in accordance with popular view. And generalizing isn’t a solution, it won’t convince many people, it will simply discredit you. And the thought of an intentional Global Jihad movement doesn’t seem to stand a chance either.
What’s the solution? I don’t know. But the discussion we’re having, on websites like these and people like Mr. Spencer are certainly a start.

Elliot, "cognitive dissonance" only applies in this instance if (1) you believe Islam is the only true religion, (2) Islam is superior to all other religions, (3) all Muslims are superior to everyone else and (4) that Islam will eventually dominate the world. Then you discover that none of the above statements are true. That is an example of cognitive dissonance. Sorry I don't have a mathematical formula to show it. I'm sure Einstein could have come up with one. From your earlier posts I don't think you suffer from it, but it's gratifying to see you're familiar with the terminology.
http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/dissonance.htm

Elliot: "And as time pass; credible proofs are poping-up everywhere in the world."

Sort of like apples that keep falling from trees. If you want to know WHY the apples keep falling down from the trees, then you will take the time to understand Fg=Gm1m2/r2, just as if you want to know WHY those “credible proofs keep popping up all over the world” you will take the time to understand the concept of global jihad. Your statement that “gravity will continue working for me as it did before, even if people don’t understand how it works, even if they don’t believe or notice it”, is equally applicable to the global jihad. It marches on, whether you believe in it or understand it or not (at which point the analogy breaks down as one cannot presumably stop gravity, although one can harness that understanding to manipulate the environment in other ways).

“You need to point out flaws in their multicultural system. You need to create an argument that will make people understand that.”

But on what basis would people be motivated to make changes to the way they are already doing things, in the absence of a correct understanding of the common underlying cause of these diverse incidents popping up everywhere? Isn't that the error we’ve made so far – treating the Palestinian problem as separate from the Chechnya problem as separate from the Paris riots as separate from the Darfur problem and so on? The failure to recognize the common cause of all these separate incidents prevents a coherent and effective response. The Paris riots are a good example. France's failure to see them in the context of the global jihad and to see them instead as due to local grievance, results in their INTENSIFYING their efforts to make multiculturalism work.

I wonder how many of those here protesting the Western appeasement of Islamo-Fascism actually did something when, in 1998, the US/NATO bombed Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim terrorists in the Balkans? Those events opened my eyes to the growing Muslim menace in the West and I vowed to do something about it (as I subsequently did). Just wondering. :)

The more unstable Western countries become (through the chaos and violence caused by mass non-white immigration and multiculturalism), the more justification the elites will have for imposing authoritarian/totalitarian rule.

The struggle for the liberation of the West is now.
Posted by: Stuka

Exactly. And that type of government and it's disarmed citizenship is easy for Islam to walk all over, most will be government heads by then anyway.

Freedom is hard won, but easy to loose.

People just can't take the time to learn what Islam is about, learn from it's history, and see what is going on in the world today, and every day, the gradual Jihad- the mass murder and terrorism in Africa, Idonesia, the Philipenes, Maylasia, The Balkans, Europe, (especially France) even the once mighty UK is on very shaky ground.

There is only ONE Koran, ONE Muhammad, and ONE accounting of his life which ALL Muslims must follow, Radical fundamentalist or moderate alike. They share ONE common goal which is spelled out clearly in the Koran's sura's and the hadith.

The devote "moderate" Muslim is just the same as the fundamentalist. The only difference between them is how they achieve their common goal.

The Muslim who doesn't do his religious duty, Jihad, is a hypocrate. Westerners are confusing so called "moderate muslims" with hypocrates. It is the hypocrate Muslims that these "insurgents" are killing in Iraq. At least that is what they claim they are, and therefore justified in killing according to Muhammad. This is all clearly stated in the Koran and hadith, there are only few exceptions from the duty.

Muslim:C40B20N4676 “Jihad Is Compulsory.”

Noble Qur’an 2:190 Footnote: “Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.”

Qur’an 9:111 “Allah has purchased the believers, their lives and their goods. For them (in return) is the Garden (of Paradise). They fight in Allah’s Cause, and they slay and are slain; they kill and are killed.”

Qur’an 9:91 “There is no blame on those who are old, weak, ill, or who find no resources to spend (on Jihad, holy fighting), if they are sincere (in duty) to Allah and His Messenger.”

Qur’an 047.033 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger! Those who disbelieve and hinder men from the Cause of Allah, He will not pardon. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace. You have the upper hand.”

Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’”

I just don't see why people have such trouble understanding this. But they will eventually, but at a much greater cost.

"Global jihad doesn’t need to be real or imagined, it needs to be believable, or else, its useless, to me anyway. When I say something doesn’t matter if the people don’t believe in it, I’m not making anything up. Its called sophism."

posted by elliot

I guess the tens of thousands killed each year in countries around the world by people yelling "Allah Akbar" isn't good enough proof for you.

And to hell with reading the Koran and surat Rasul Allah, which all Muslims follow. Means nothing to you.
The heck with what their top Mullahs say, what they preach in the mosks in Islamic countries, what they teach in madrassa's.

There is no such thing as a 'moderate" muslim. There is only the hipocrate, who doesn't follow his religion. Learn the difference.

You are after all a Lefty, and are content with head firmly planted in the sand, believing such silly things as a perfect world were rich pay the poor to sit on their butts, provide them with free health care and the like. And there is of course man made global warming, Oh yes, man can now control the weather!!! Never mind real science doesn't support that THEORY.

Global Jihad BTW is not a theory. It's a fact. It's been going on for 1400 years, and continues today. But it's not happening to YOU personally, so it's not there, right? READ a book? Study historical events? WHY?! That doesn't prove anything.

All I can say Elliot, is you need to wake up.
Educating yourself won't hurt, honest. Or, just ignore it all. It's not as if little wee you makes much of a difference one way or another anyway.

The failure to recognize the common cause of all these separate incidents prevents a coherent and effective response. The Paris riots are a good example. France's failure to see them in the context of the global jihad and to see them instead as due to local grievance, results in their INTENSIFYING their efforts to make multiculturalism work.
Posted by: Caroline

You will never convince Elliot of anything.

He's an admitted leftist social/communist. Despite socialism's failures time and time again and the hundreds of millions of lives it claimed, these people think it will work.

I really don't know why it is, but a die hard leftist just won't pick up a book or do a little research that may prove his views wrong.

We see examples of this every day, Imams screaming through their mosk loudspeakers how they are going to kill every last infidel and rule the world, while leftist tourists walk by saying "doesn't that religious singing sound so "nice"??

We will never convince Elliot. But maybe we can convince him to go to Iraq or "palestinian" territory and hold up a anti-war or anti Israel sign.

I don't think it's entirely a conspiracy in the conventional sense.
Actually all it is is a very large number of people who share a basic "frame of reference"-- Islam- based on the Koran, sunna and hadiths. Just by practicing their religion faithfully, they can't help but move towards the stated ultimate goal of mohommed. Many of them probably are not even conscious of it.
It's a system that is on autopilot. And situation is everything in islam-- that determines the muslum's behavior and attitudes.

There are actual organized conspiracies involved too, the overt jihadis live in a different situation. The dawa artists are for different situations. And situations can be changed, that is the ultimate goal of islam.

The leftists succeeded in changing the frame of reference too, thats how political correctness and all the other nonsense became popular.

Why are you guys still trying to prove to me there is an global jihad? I'll say it for a third time: it doesn't matter if the whole thing is real or imagined, people wont buy it. Sweeping generalisations, to say all mulsims are this or that, will never work in any discussions and will never convince anyone, because its simply not true. You're completly denying the influence people have over their relgion.

Anyway, this whole conversation is now banckrupt. It was fun while it lasted, but the ad hominem attacks are starting to pop-up here and there, so I guess there is a limit to this community's patience and tolerance regarding debates.

But in the end, sweeping generalisations are fun, aren't they? and they're time savy, too. All lefties are like this, all muslims are like that, liberals are fools, people who disagree just can't understand "the one and only truth", and I'm just a dirty socialist/communist.

Right.

Sorry Elliot, but, that's the problem of political parties,labels, ideologies and religions-- an individual who claims membership loses his individuality.

The USA had to save the French's collective sorry butts in 1917 and again in 1945. Looks like they're about due again. Or maybe this time we should let them twist slowly in the wind, hoist on their own petard.......

Mullahmasher: "He's an admitted leftist social/communist. Despite socialism's failures time and time again and the hundreds of millions of lives it claimed, these people think it will work.

I really don't know why it is, but a die hard leftist just won't pick up a book or do a little research that may prove his views wrong."

Maybe this is why they keep believing:

"Communism/socialism describes an envisioned condition of inspiring interaction between members of the human race idealized in theory and interpretation. Communism/socialism are seen through idealized theory believed in almost as a religion. The unpleasant truth beneath the illusion keeps seeping through to contradict the idealized theory. This is countered by redoubling both denial and ennobling masochistic sacrifice as the corrective element to address any failures or realization. The demand for increased sacrifice by those who believe in, and attempt to enforce, the delusion can impose substantial hardship upon other members of the community— at times to the point of being somewhat of a plague.

The feel-good and escapist philosophy of helping the poor in person, or at pious personal sacrifice, seems preferable to expanding a system of economics that helps the poor in mass. What is asked for is a type of personal religious experience within the ennobling personal sacrificial or group sacrificial experience. It is almost hysterically grasped at by some people.

Free enterprise is an intrusional alternative to such sainthood and it's an intrusion into a person to person experience that is rather brusque. It leaves people in a condition of emotional abandonment.

Starvation and impoverishment are to be eliminated only through idealized social effort and servitude, not through a culture or economic system emphasizing individual effort. The diffuse abstract catharsis of dedicated abstract love, and a sense of belonging, are more important than the actual relief from impoverishment. Given failure of social effort, or even inherent impossibility of its success due to displacement of, or absence or deficiency of individual effort, the failures of love-based socialistic systems are still looked upon as far more preferable to the successes of free enterprise type systems. Thus, the apparent contradiction of the acceptability of socialistic failure concurrent with obsessional criticism of free enterprise in spite of its massive overall successes, becomes resolved. Economic progress is neither the primary real issue nor goal. A system of belief and belonging is. The intensification of feeling of belief and belonging is one of several reasons why there is so much group political portrayal and participation in socialist/communist societies. Social hysterical herd catharsis, belonging, and feeling of abstract love are the principle, and desired, product. In many eyes a system that produces a feeling of belonging and abstract love is a triumph, even if it also produces poverty. Within the circularity of reasoning, poverty produces spiritual purification, anyway. It's in the book.

The people involved are so emotionally repulsed by the self-interest and sense of abandonment in free enterprise that if free enterprise were adopted and would produce a family income of $30,000 a year for poor nations tomorrow morning, they would be distraught.

(People once obtained feeling of love and belonging through family and other interpersonal relationships. With the downfall of the family and deterioration of interpersonal relationships, they, at times somewhat desperately, substitute a socialistic love in a social system that offers an abstract spiritual love. The orientation toward, and success within, individual and family relationships are subtractive from the need to find love through abstract group catharsis and are hence looked upon as a retrograde condition by the secular socialist state.)

There is a difference between noble suffering and sacrifice for truth as opposed to suffering and sacrifice for manufactured fantasy. There is a difference between noble suffering and sacrifice for truth as opposed to suffering and sacrifice for manufactured fantasy when that fantasy is so constructed as to deny, and even perpetuate, an underlying condition of basic corruption. There is a difference between noble suffering and sacrifice for truth as opposed to suffering and sacrifice for manufactured fantasy when dedication to that fantasy refuses systems that empirically work because they are aesthically unappealing to fantasy while embracing and imposing systems that don't work as they esthetically appeal to wishes and fantasy. There is a difference between noble suffering and sacrifice for truth as opposed to suffering and sacrifice for manufactured fantasy that is a child's game in a protected rarefied atmosphere. There is a difference between noble suffering and sacrifice for truth as opposed to suffering and sacrifice for manufactured fantasy when it is a ploy to manipulate and control other people. There is a difference between noble suffering and sacrifice for truth as opposed to suffering and sacrifice for manufactured fantasy when fantasy is used to procure socially rewarded positions of escapism.

But still, the idea of beautiful minds living and suffering in beautiful denial finds appeal."

Inequality, Terror, and Revolution

"Global Jihad" does not imply a world-wide conspiracy, carefully coordinated and planned. It is the word we give to all the local manifestations of Jihad, that is, the support of, or active participation in, the Jihad, which is to say the "struggle" or duty, incumbent on Islamic communities and sometimes on every member of that community, depending on the conditions, to spread Islam and to remove all barriors to the ultimate desired situatio, where Islam covers the globe, Dar al-Harb has been swallowed up by Dar al-Islam, and everwhere Muslims rule and Islam dominates, for as the Hadith says, "Islam is to dominate and is not to be dominated."

Whether or not Infidels will study enough to take seriously the perfectly plausible -- and to all Muslims justified -- existence of what might be called a world-wide Jihad, participated in by Muslims all over the globe, and supported by hundreds of millions of other Muslims, in fulfillment of the duty to spread Islam, by whatever instruments (military combat or qital, wealth or the economic weapon, Da'wa or propaganda to spread Islam, the weapon of demography)are available -- well, that is another matter, having to do with the level of ignorance of Islam, the willingness to deny the evidence of one's senses, the susceptibility to the most obvious kind of apologetics both from Muslims and non-Muslim collaborators (the espositos and armstrongs who are both sinister and silly).

But it is not absurd to write or speak of a world-wide Jihad. That's what it is. It isn't limited to this or that little spot on the globe. It isn't limited in time any more than it is in space. It goes on forever, whenever it can. Where thwarted, or crushed, well-- Islam teaches Believers to be patient.

There is no end to this. But it does not mean that the whole thing cannot be contained, that Muslims can be demoralized and divided, while time is bought to properly educate the Infidel world.

If anyone doubts this, spend a week reading. Just read Bat Ye'or. Spencer. Ibn Warraq. The website www.faithfreedom.org, run by Ali Sina. "The Legacy of Jihad" edited by Andrew Bostom. Read. Study. Don't take anyone's word for anything. Study, study, study.

Hugh wrote:

"well, that is another matter, having to do with the level of ignorance of Islam, the willingness to deny the evidence of one's senses, the susceptibility to the most obvious kind of apologetics both from Muslims and non-Muslim collaborators (the espositos and armstrongs who are both sinister and silly)."

Alright, this is what I want to talk about. Why do liberals, why is liberalism, in such a "dial"? Why does the belief of world-wide jihad unable to take root in a liberal mind?

I tried to offer an explanation in another thread. It went like this: 1) liberalism cannot admit that so many individuals, events and so many hotspots around the world are all related under one common denominator, because liberalism reduce everything to the individual level. Liberalism cannot generalise.

For exemple, liberalism says that religion must be, and IS, influenced by a myriad of individuals, not the other way around. People make of religion what it is, not the other way around.
The biggest proof of this would be what europeans did with christianity over the centuries: a lot of people burned on the stake of christian intelorence before the Church became more tolerant, before it became what it is today. And on this, I believe liberalism is right. I'm not ignoring the influance Christianity had over the West, but please, lets not ignore the influence the people had on their religion.

And 2) to admit of a global jihad for a liberal would be to admit that, well, his beliefs would lose their universal pretention. And it will take a lot of 9/11 to admit that.

Now the question is, is liberalism wrong with Islam? can the same be achieved with Islam that was achieved with Christianity? If it is wrong, and this is what you all believe, how can you prove it? This is why I became an active poster here, to answer that question. Because if liberalism is wrong over Islam, then yes, I'll readily to talk about the islamization of my civilisation by another. Yes, I'll talk of colonisation and of global jihad.

Now, when above I was saying that the notion of global jihad is useless to convince liberals and moderate people, its because you're not talking on the individual level, you're not talking the language of liberalism. Saying everyone is like this or that is the best way for anyone to shot themself in the foot and lose their credibility in any debate. Liberalism never say people are like this or that, that all people living there all read the same big book and all follow whats in it. You have to take other means than this, more complex. if you're to beat liberals.

Of course, if you think that to convince liberals, to beat them at their own game, is useless, both impossible and pointless, well then this whole conversation is of course void. But you probably wont be able to achieve anything on a meaningfull level in your war against jihad if you cannot come up with a convincing, foulproof argument. And this is what I'd like to hear about.

I dont think its impossible to convince liberals. Their people who value the same society and civilisation that you, and who are exposed to the same events, and who's entire philosophy takes root in the same two basic values: equality and liberty. How could it be impossible to convince someone with who you share so much in common, if the threat is so real?

Because, in the end, if you cannot make up an argument that can convince at least the more realistic of them, the whole concept of hoping to fight jihad is pointless. Liberalism is too much omnipresent, in the media, universities, in politics and in too many people, to merely disregard it as just a handfull of "retard" and "mentaly sick" people, like so many intelligent posters here would like to think. How can anyone here hope to make any meaningfull movement without defeating the ruling ideolgy?

"can the same be achieved with Islam that was achieved with Christianity? If it is wrong, and this is what you all believe, how can you prove it"

Answer: - NO!

Why? Nowhere in the Bible does it say to Christians to oppress, kill, and enslave "infidels"

Martin Luther had a hard time telling the Roman Catholic Church that, who didn't bother reading the Bible, and those that knew didn't want the people reading it (hence the need for Latin).

As many have quoted for you above elliot - there is only one way you can interpret all the "kill the unbelivers" passages ALL THROUGH the KORAN and HADITH.

- that is literally. Nor can you deny the fact that every Muslim country on the face of the earth has progressively removed infidels from their society to the point where they no longer hold any influence.

Elliot you are effectively asking us infidels to make peace with an ideology that makes the Nazi's look like innocent little school kids.

You cannot tolerate an intolerate belief. To do so is suicide (and death in this world of "no absolutes" is very absolute!).

Why? Because I'm a liberal (in the real sense of the term, not the reductive, negative american one), and what I know of Islam and the notion of global jihad contradict what I believe in. So I'm tryign to make the "jihad paradigm" fit into liberal thinking.

1- Islam is pretty much universaly conflictual and violent in theory ( Koran), statisticly (Samuel Huntington proved it in his "Clash of Civilisation", chapter 3 I believe) and in practice (as seen in pretty much any honest newspapers).

2- As a Liberal, I believe that anyone, no matter his identity, sexual orientation, language and religion, should be able and free to make as many cash as possible, depending on his individual merit. This is the kind of freedom only found in the West. This is the uniqueness of the values of the West: they're universal. Anyway, we've been thinking so since a couple of generations.

Problem is, statement 1 goes against statement 2. They dont fit together. What I'm trying to do is, I should be able to say statement 1, without getting beheaded by my fellow liberal students or getting flunk by a teacher. Heck, if statement 1 is true, I should be able to prove it to everyone, and convince them. But it isn't the case, it doesn't make sense and it shouldn't be that way.

“And by the way, insulting Caroline or Sheik yer'mami will really get you nowhere here. I've read many of their posts and can comfortably say that they are well versed on the subject of the debate and can back their statements up”

Sheik:

“99 % of Europeans dont want any mosque”

“Show me a normal Muslim, and I will show you a 15 dollar bill!”

“We don’t want any of it, we will not have any of it. We want mass deportation and internment for this people.”

Etc

You are right, truly a sane person who obviously knows what he is talking about. Are you still confortable?

“Why? Nowhere in the Bible does it say to Christians to oppress, kill, and enslave "infidels"”

Only the typical right-wing christian who believes everything his parents / pastor / Fox / JW says without questioning it could seriously affirm that. See my post there and face the painful truth.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/009660.php#comments