From the Washington Times:
A financial firm plans to open an office in Fairfax County in early March to sell mutual funds to the Washington area's Muslims, joining banks and investment houses that find the growing U.S. Islamic population can no longer be ignored.Saturna Capital Corp. plans to sell its Amana mutual funds to the Washington area's approximately 200,000 Muslims who want to avoid violating Islamic law with their investments.
"They're fairly young, making a lot of money, well-educated and they're looking for services," said Monem Salam, director of Islamic investing for Saturna Capital, which also sells funds that have no religious orientation.
The funds invest only in stocks that are Shariah-compliant, which means they cannot invest in the alcoholic beverage, gambling, pornography, tobacco or pork-processing industries.
Islamic law also forbids Muslims from paying or earning interest.
A Washington-area office "gives us access to all the East Coast," Mr. Salam said.
The Bellingham, Wash., company, which manages $250 million in Islamic investments, is riding a trend among financial institutions to find a niche among the nation's Muslim population.
Although Census Bureau data is sketchy, government studies and Muslim groups estimate 6 million to 7 million Muslims live in the United States. Other studies, however, have estimated the number as low as 1.6 million. The Department of Homeland Security says the number is rising with immigration from Muslim countries...
Unresolved under Internal Revenue Service rules is whether Muslim taxpayers can claim an interest deduction on their homes or businesses when they are not paying interest.
Muslim groups say their concerns are being taken more seriously as their U.S. population grows.
"The community has obviously grown by leaps and bounds," said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Washington civil rights group for the Muslim community...
Yes, and they're also receiving interest free mortgages. I'd like to see the contracts on those to see if they're actually on the up and up. The banks claim that the same amount of monies will be paid back through principle, but I'd still like to get a gander at these loan agreements......
It is pathetic that American banks are willing and able to side step American banking laws to appease these shits who come from a culture so confrontational with, and so contradictory to our own.
Interest free money. I doubt it. This is just a game of semantics. They probably charge loan fees, which could be considered prepayed interest, up front.
If they don't charge loan fees, or they are actually resonable, I would think the following diabolic plan could take advantage of this amazing offer.
1) take loan from muzzie bank.
2) deposit loan into a secure interest earning investement.
3) $$$profit$$$
Can they legally prevent a Kuffir from getting a loan?
Is there a transitive property of Haram:
If they invest deposits into companies that engage in 'Un-Islamic' banking, are the profits from that company 'Un-Islamic'? If not, why not? Mr Hooper?
DC and St_James:
It is, as you suspect, a smoke-and-mirrors game that involves a huge front end loading. I don't know enough about banking laws in the US (or Canada, for that matter) to know if these Sharia-friendly mortgages are illegal, but I expect that they are compliant. I also suspect that these "non-mortgages" are no great bargain for the consumer.
In a highly competitive financial products market, this is all about marketing advantage and nothing more.
OT~
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17897112-2,00.html
Selling in our domestic markets financial instruments designed to comply with the law of a foreign nation --- the Nation of Islam --- should be a felony, if it isn't already.
MORE MOSLEMS MORE KORANS MORE HADITHS MORE SIRATS MORE ISLAM MORE
Whoops, I forgot that the Nation of Islam doesn't exist. Islam is one of the world's great religions. I felt that in my heart when the scowling priest Bani Sadr promised to send his army to Persia to fight if the good Mahmoud's government is attacked.
Also OT ~Cronulla victum tells of attack Jan. 20. 06 Video mentions NSW permanent Middle Eastern Crime Unit being formed.
http://seven.com.au/news/video
Once the accomodation is made for Muslims in the financial arena in the US, can the demands for polygamy, family law courts, and, ultimately, a separate political system be far behind? Does any know if following sharia banking laws would lead to discrimination against women in any way? Would non-Muslims be able to bank at an institution run by Muslims and for Muslims in the US? To my way of thinking, sharia-friendly banking and investing is just another aspect of victory that Muslims in the US have enjoyed since their fellow believers killed 3,000 on 9/ll.
"making a lot of money"
-- from a posting above
What jobs? Working for the government as "experts" on Islam or the Middle East? Foundation grants? Hired to teach in universities? What, exactly? Computer engineers, working on what projects where they might learn to do what? University teachers of Islam and the Middle East, where they might fill yet another gneration of Americans with ignoprance disguised as knowledge? What jobs, and what sources of funds (anything from abroad?) and what employers, and what goods and services provided to what clientele?
So called "sharia-compliant" mortagages are some combination of a lease and an option to purchase or contract sales agreement. When you consider all the bizarre ways that mortgages are sliced-and-diced and repackaged as derivative securities what is the harm to society of an agreement in which the buyers payments are not treated as "interest". If they want to have to deal in a niche market with niche market pricing so they can play their word game then that is their problem.
When push comes to shove, I'm more uneasy about halal butchers than sharia bankers.
Hugh,
Reading you post above, "making a lot of money":
Suppose someone were to make the following comments about Jews making lots of money:
"What jobs? Working for the government as "experts" on Israel or the Middle East? Foundation grants? Hired to teach in universities? What, exactly? Computer engineers, working on what projects where they might learn to do what? University teachers of Hebrew and Middle Eastern politics, where they might fill yet another generation of Americans with ignorance disguised as knowledge? What jobs, and what sources of funds (anything from abroad?) and what employers, and what goods and services provided to what clientele?"
What would people call them? (antisemite)
I don't buy the Muslim, Jew equivalence argument. I'm not trying to make it here, but given that CAIR et al seem to have consiously modeled the concept "Islamophobia" on "Antisemitism", statements such as the one above would seem to help them promote it to the less aware general public.
By itself, wealth tends to pull people away from religion. It may take more that one generation and there are other factors that can counteract this effect. A religious community that feels itself under economic persecution for its beliefs is likely to be pulled together rather then pulled apart.
Smoke and mirrors indeed.
However, here is a very astute paper written by an Islamic economics professor at Rice University that explores and explains the paradox of Islamic Financing. I found it very educational.
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~elgamal/files/interest.pdf#search='time%20interest%20islamic%20law'
"god is in the details"
A very witty(classic?) response by an Islamic banking official justifying the way they do business from the above PDF file.
If they want to have to deal in a niche market with niche market pricing so they can play their word game then that is their problem.
Quite so. And a word game is all it is. In susbstance this is a mortgage like any other, but on less favourable terms. But then Sharia is about the letter of the law, not the spirit.
By itself, wealth tends to pull people away from religion.
Not with Islam, though. A poor Muslim, assuming he isn't living off Western charity, must work hard to support himself and may well be too tired or hungry to plan jihad or even to learn what the Koran really says. A rich one, particularly where this wealth is unearned (oil money), or even a comfortably off Muslim - as are, in relative terms, all those Muslims who live off Eurowelfare - has time on his hands. Time and leisure to learn about Islam. We have seen the consequences of this.
Interested:
There's at least two related good reasons why wealthy Muslims are so generous when it comes to supporting "the faith" and "jihad":
Islamic ideology tells the downtrodden and lower classes that it is "Allah's will" and that wealth is bad for them so the downtrodden lower classes won't demand a share in the nation's petro-wealth; and
sending volatile and dangerous young males abroad to attack non-Muslim (or other Muslim sect) targets focuses their attention away from the people who really do oppress them.
Hello all,
Normally Islamic beliefs prevent us from dealings that involve interest (Riba). Yet Muslims need banking services as much as anyone and for many purposes: to finance new business ventures, to buy a house, to buy a car, to facilitate capital investment, to undertake trading activities, and to offer a safe place for savings.
A global network of Islamic banks, investment houses and other financial institutions has started to take shape based on the principles of Islamic finance laid down in the Qur'an .
Islamic banking, based on the Qur'anic prohibition of charging interest, has moved from a theoretical concept to embrace more than 100 banks operating in 40 countries with multi-billion dollar deposits world-wide.
Deposit assets held by Islamic banks were approximately $US5 billion in 1985 but already grew over $200 billion in 2004.
While I agree that these loans maybe loaded in some way so that the bank still makes its money ...for me and too most fine thinking muslims ....that's not the point.
The point is that money goes round....muslims reluctant to invest will do so. Investment in Halal coke factories, chains of butcher shops, and indeed other muslim banks will attract muslims like bees to honey. Mosques will be built around that area, Jilbabs R us clothes shops, prayer mats, prayer caps etc...a thriving economy.
My vision of a post I put into Ironman Hondo a couple of days ago is coming to fruition, such good news is hard to come by .....c'mon where is your sense of community.....celebrate.
Interested:
Wealth is hardly the only variable affecting an individual's attachment to their religious beliefs. In Saudi Arabia their large unearned wealth is, no doubt, justified by them as a sign that Allah is on their side. Poor peasants everywhere tend to be deeply religious. In places like Egypt and Pakistan they may to busy struggling to survive to serve as foot soldiers of jihad but they provide the sea in which the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaeda can swim.
Earned wealth from a business or a good job in a place like the US tends to make a person feel like they can rely on themselves and tends to blunt the call to spend this life on religious activities (e.g. jihad) in hope of a better one hereafter. There are many exceptions both ways of course.
A call for an economic "boycott" of Muslims in the West will be counter-productive, IMHO.
The political boost to Muslims from victimhood and increased group cohesion will far outweigh whatever modest effects they suffer from a sparsely observed boycott.
When people finally "get it" about the true nature of Islam, the desire to avoid doing business with them where possible is almost a natural side effect. Before that, talking about a boycott just tends to cause people on the sidelines to be more likely to flip on the "Islamophobic racist hate-monger" bit in their heads, the one that closes their ears to the important truths that this site has to say. Then they don't "get it".
While I agree that these loans maybe loaded in some way so that the bank still makes its money ...for me and too most fine thinking muslims ....that's not the point.
[...]
Posted by: Naseem at January 23, 2006 03:08 PM
Naseem:
Everyone recognizes that financial institutions operate at a profit. What's going on here is pure silliness -- playing that there is no forbidden interest charge,when in fact there is one.
And make no mistake, it's being done in the name market share by the banks, who don't care what you call it as long as they make sufficient return-on-investment for their shareholders.
Islam and the bizarre and irrational, the tale goes on.
And how could a bank managing mutual funds avoid paying interest? Where is money placed that is not invested in stocks, say, before or after a stock is sold? Money market accounts are out. Or are they? Perhaps the customer earns no interest but the bank does. Or does one consider the guarenteed return, in Federally insured accounts of less than $100,000, not interest at all but a form of jiyza? Perhaps the banks accept this jiyza from Infidel institutions in good conscience with the understanding that once Islamic law dominates the whole practice of interest can be abolished.
In any case, the joke of Sharia goes on. Welcome to the funny farm that ain't so funny.
It is interesting to see how business can adapt to Muslim law. I know of a very successful reataurant run by Muslims. One would think that they would be at a disadvantage, as islam forbids serving alcohol. Generally, serving drinks is a very lucrative line of the restaurant sales.
The Muslim owner gets around this by providing at no charge, a glass with ice. The partons are allowed to bring thier own liquor into the establishment. This seems to be a good niche, as the restaurant does quite well.
Jilbabs R us clothes shops
- Naseem
Love it!
What about 'Right Size of Stones 'R' Us? Even better.
Or better still:
"Cliterodectemies [can't spell it] while U wait" !
Now that's what I'd call a thriving islamic economy.
'Talaaq' Buy TWO, get ONE free. Marvellous.
Plenty of money in the bodega business. Some stores grossing 30K a week.
Mohommedans not paying interest? HA! I've gotten plenty of vig off of them!
Moslems don't believe in interest but use banks.
Moslems don't believe in hate but recite the Koran.
Moslems don't believe in murder but practice Jihad.
Moslems. Self-important intrusive hypocrites who will kill you or enslave you. Have you hugged your Moslem today?
Some facts about this very underrated issue.
In Australia we have the MCCA( Muslim community Cooperative Association) you have to pay 1000$A to join. I have sent numerous emails & mails to them asking to join but never received ONE answer. My son, being smarter than his father did the same but called himself some Muslim name ?Abu ben Adem and received an answer very quickly. I have no idea if he did join but as they did need proof of identity I doubt it.
The interest rate is 1 to 2(usually 1.8 to 1.9) % a being the cost only of the loan. On ABC TV here a man was interviewed and he paid 266000 in ten years for a house worth 212000, which is roughly 2.5% which seems a little high to me.
However it is still far less than half of the lowest rate possible for a housing loan in Oz.
What this measn is that they can AFFORD to buy a house and have seven children and that they can also afford to buy a small business in 25 years as opposed to the nonMuslim australian who will be very lucky to pay ONE house off in 25 yeears.
Now i wont go into my views on interst and capital etc but the above gives the average Muslim massive financial clout in this country and enables them to easily buy up houses in targeted areas(by offering more) and to buy up small businesses(also by ofering more) in areas where they wish control of the local council(close local pool on fridays except for muslim women) and the local libraries(ban rushdie's books). This is the thin end of the wedge as it affects all of us and is NO joke.
I believe that this is discriminatory against nonMuslims who disagree with interest and IS the source of much of their local power and that the banks know this full well and support them despite them supposedly being antibanking.
I wish to report them here to the discrimination board but until they return my letters or my emails I am in no man's land. I have tried by phone but they never ring back once they take my name. They are not stupid.
Nah, Zathras, its not that simple:
There is more to it: These loans are not cheaper, they cost a lot more than the present 7 or 8 percentage-points we pay. Theres a lot of add-on's and also that the Islamic bank holds the title to the property and after the lease-term is over, the customer/victim has to buy the bank out.
There can even be a current value attached after the lease term is up, its quite tricky and the good Muslim-customer usually gets f*#ed, but don't take my word for it:
Nasseeem can tell us the intricate details, I'm sure she knows about all the goodies of Islamic banking (bonking?)
Sheik... agree that they hold the deed until it is paid off just like any bank loan and yes there are addons(cost of the loan etc) but this essentially is all that they pay and the Muslim who bought the house was the one who said he paid 266k in ten years for 212k house and that speaks for itself and nothing you say or Nasseem say can undermine that.
I would like to know more about the evidence for your comments as Muslims here are very hesitant about ripping each other off but have no problems with the rest of society as we deserve it.
I will try to find the website if there is one for the program but it was nearly 2 years ago and I doubt it(? 4 Corners). I also have personal information about this being the case for a colleague(very low interest loans for car, house and business premises) and no matter what you say I am firmly convinced that it gives them quite some serious financial clout here.
Just look at the number of service stations in your area now owned by Muslims and look at the technique of creating a ghetto suburb. My aunt lived in Lakemba and had no intentions of moving but she was offered an incredible price to sell and it was to an Australian named company but when she went back to pick up the few pot plants she had left she was met by a Muslim woman who had just moved in. My usual service station was sold only recently and I asked why he had sold as he had such a good business.He replied that he was offered 10% more than it was worth to sell and so he did. Any guesses as to who moved in? I made the dreadful mistake of wishing him a "merry xmas " and I have not been back since because of his rudeness.
In a Muslim country Muslims have no advantage over each other. In a western country they have a decided financial advantage over the rest of us. That is WHY they come here and that is why they can afford 7 children. Could you? I certainly could not have so without making major financial sacrifices. yet 7 children does not seem to affect their standard of living and I can confirm that as I have been in quite a few Australin Islamic homes.
In western countries they have a damn good reason not to exploit each other and that is the future creation of an islamic state. With such low interest they can afford to do so.
Nothing you say can change my mind on this and i am curious as to why you wish to do so despite the certainty of the above and because of its extreme relevance I hardly expect any Muslim to agree with me.
I would like to be sure that Muslims using this non-interest option are then barred from getting a tax break on their income taxes. In the U.S., many taxpayers get a taxbreak on interest they pay on home mortgages. Why do I have a sneaking suspicion that the Muslim tax lawyers will insist upon an equal taxbreak but under another name?
Muslims not paying interest? Please. They buy lots of houses in the Washington D.C. area and take out plenty of loans, first and second trusts, with interest, to do it. This is akin to Muslims not allowing prostitution but taking full advantage of temporary marriage. What a joke!
Shouldn't the title read "Banks cater to exploding Muslim population"
A small matter of two letters, but it's far more accurate
Shouldn't the title read "Banks cater to exploding Muslim population"
A small matter of two letters, but it's far more accurate
l'd rather read "Banks exploding Muslim population!
Isabella I can only talk about what I know to be true in Australia.
However before you talk about the loans taken out by Muslims do check up upon the duration of the loans, the repayment time(not always the same thing) and whether or not it get paid out eventually with a cash payment. Loans taken out by dummy fronts can often be paid out very quickly and with minimal interest paid
I am totally unfamiliar with the US banking system but know that local Muslims know more about our social security systeme and our banking systems than does the average Centrelink employee or thelocal bank manager. They seem to have access to some central information here and really do know their rights to an extreme.
This is a very hard area in which to get certain information but I have seen none which disgrees with it here as of yet. I am certain that there must some exceptions to this rule (some mosque in Victoria received some special loan okayed by their imam as they had insufficient funds for the land and had to borrow shortterm, but it was repayed very quickly).
Maybe secularised muslims ignore interest there i do not know but just think of the consequences demographically and finacially if I am totally correct.