Denmark subject to Islamic cyber-attacks?

The Western world possesses far more people deeply knowledgeable about computers than does the world of Islam. Why are many of them not put on government payrolls, or given contracts, and told to counter the cyber-jihad. There should be thousands of Western hackers, working full-time and with the full approval of society, not only to counter such attacks as the one on Jyllens-Posten, but to disrupt the use of the Internet, an entirley Infidel creation now exploited, like so much of Western science and technology, by those who are willing to use the fruits, but unwilling to see the conneciton between those fruits and the nature of non-Muslim attitudes and beliefs that make the advancement of science, and its stepchld technology, possible.

There has to be solidarity with Denmark. Where is it? We are waiting. London? Rome? Paris? What about Washington -- anyone reading this in Washington? Is there anyone who wants to get up in Congress and discuss the attempt to destroy free speech in Denmark, and the hideous disinterest, or even abandonment, of Denmark by its supposed allies, and by all those brave Defenders of Free Speech in the Western press who are strangely reticent, or even mute?

These attacks are being organized on the jihadist sites. If a site is on our Top Ten list I can virtually guarantee that you will find discussion of targets to attack (websites and email addresses), tools to use to attack, and links to other sites where more such discussions are taking place. Most of these sites are either hosted in the USA or are kept online thanks to services provided by American companies, and all of them are at least nominally under surveillance.

A lot of good watching does.

Wars require war-fighters, not spectators. Currently we have an over-abundance of the latter.

Has the American government gone to the compuiter kings of Palo Alto? Has it mobilized an army, or even fully comprehended that "boots on the ground" in Ramallah are less important in containing the forces of Islam than the ability to reboot the right computers and shut down or disorient the wrong ones? Does it yet comprehend that control of the skies over the Sunni isosceles triangle may be important, but control of the cyber-ether far more important?

A curious lapse, if such a lapse there be, perhaps based on that continuinig refusal to connect the dots, and to keep hoping as Condoleeza Rice apparently does, that the Muslim states of the Middle East are now entering a "great transition" toward -- modernity, sanity, something or other. They aren't. They can't. And what we should wish them to do is to come to realize that it is not the Infidels, but Islam itself, that explains their own failures and backwardness of every sort. This realization will come, from within, only when the propping up -- the access to Western Infidel technology, Western Infidel higher education, Western Infidel armaments, Western Infidel foreign aid which is no more than a Jizyah, now paid, and taken, in the spirit of "protection money" -- ceases, as it should never have started inthe first place.

Hello all,

As you can see from postees like "DefenderofIslam" ...Islam has few people with the technical knowledge to hack sites.

Surely this is the work of Westerners who are computer literate and sympathise with respect to the dasterdely excesses in cartoon form that Islam's prophet has been subjected to in Denmark.

"Is there anyone who wants to get up in Congress and discuss the attempt to destroy free speech in Denmark, and the hideous disinterest, or even abandonment, of Denmark by its supposed allies, and by all those brave Defenders of Free Speech in the Western press who are strangely reticent, or even mute?"

Uh, nope. Doing so would not only be considered insensitive, but political suicide as well.

Wouldn't want that would you?

They are losing cold blood.
Apologize or I will kill you (what a savoir vivre!)

"Masked gunmen in Gaza have briefly stormed the local office of the EU.
They demanded an apology from Denmark and Norway over the publication of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad that have offended Muslims."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4661572.stm

Long live Denmark! Free speeach forever!

A black bird flew over Brussles and cried "cow! cow! cow!'

Would that be Dick Dasterdely by any chance?

Danish hackers are hitting back, starting up a DOS-attack on 5 arab media, among them al-Jazeera.

Consumer boycot of moslem businesses is starting up, also.

http://viking-observer.blogspot.com/2006/01/danish-counter-attacks.html

Henrik

One possibility is that the present DOS attack on Jyllands-Posten was precipitated by the attack on the EU office in Gaza. It's getting lots of press. Might be that the muslims don't want Infidels checking into Jyllands-Posten to see what all the fuss is about. Might be embarrassed to find that these cartoons are so innocuous, especially when compared to the disgusing anti-Jewish crap that is disseminated worldwide by the arab press, as to be laughable. Then, Infidels might start to put the pieces together -- it cannot be done because it's contrary to muslim beliefs, and you sure better obey muslim beliefs ..... naw, maybe I give the Infidel too much credit.

Hugh, the 'computer kings of Palo Alto' are too busy licking the Chinese government's jackboot right now to concern themselves with this matter.

Islam has few people with the technical knowledge to hack sites. - posted by Naseem

Poppycock. Take a look at the computer science/engineering/mathematics classes at any US university and count the students from Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia, and so on. Having gotten a BA in applied mathematics (the old "something to fall back on" alongside the Bachelor of Music degree), I should know.

Surely the same demographic phenomenon exists in math and the "hard sciences" across universities in the Western world, and you can't tell me that none of the institutions in Cairo, Tehran, Riyadh, etc., have computer sci and related programs.

Seriously. The first computer virus came out of Pakistan. Your explanation echoes the Taliban's excuse after 9/11 that "how could we simple Muslims plan and execute an attack on that scale?"

What is wrong with all of you? If you want Muslim societies to be free, then at least grant them the right to fight against people defaming them and their culture. Boycott and protest are much better then a Fatwa calling for death. Your hypocricy is nauseating, especially considering your display of disgust at Anti-Semitic cartoons in the Middle East.
The truth is that you dont grant Muslims the right of self defence or self awareness. You are all sitting on top of the world, deciding who has the right to live and who is unworthy. You dont know how much you disgust me.

Karim Khayal

just on bbc world they managed to show one cartoons.......

http://www.fomi.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=21737&highlight=#21737

Yet the cartoon just happen to be one of the false pix that the moslims added
The pig one

Hugh,

The difference is that there is nothing to attack in the "Islamic cyberspace"!

The western economy, media and publishing, services and government information, and infrastructure are all based on computer technology and internet. Not so in the muslim world.

Even if you put together an army of expert hackers and computer security analysts from Silicon Valley and march them into the field, they would not be able to shut down more than a few discussion forums with a couple of thousands subscribers, or online site of Al-newspaper that nobody reads online.

shiva, I wish the moslems would add the one by D.T.Devareaux, too. The principal of free speech is the same, but that one really captures the essence of the false prophet.

"You don't know how much you disgust me". post from KKK

I am fully aware of how much I disgust you and your Mohammedan cohorts. I am simply doing what you muslims are doing. I am exercising my right as a consumer to buy Danish products.

Why do you have a problem with that? Don't you want me to be free?

The story has started to hit the main news-media over here in Australia. Interestingly, the footage showed some muslim leaders and politicians looking over the cartoons, and they didn't seem all that perturbed. One of them was laughing actually.
The cartoon that got the most attention was the 'planted' Mohammed pigs face! And the pigs-face image was the only cartoon the journalist doing the voice-over directly alluded to in her report, as if it was genuine, and part of the original 12.
They may just want to clarify which ones were 'faked', perhaps before the jihadis start sending the suicide bombers to Denmark. Not that it would matter of course.

I personally think that the Muslim world should boycott every western product, not just Danish items.

We support Denmark, so we all should be punished in the same way. Give up ALL western imports. Turn down any aid. No more education in our infidel universities. Come on guys, no more wussy selective outrage! EVERY filthy western product, idea, and technology must go!
RUN, don't walk, back to the 7th century!

From The Religious Policeman.

However, the most important news is that the Muslim "Offense Level" has been raised.

Just to remind you what the various levels mean:

LOW
Meaning - We are slightly miffed, although we are not sure why. We think we are not as popular as we would like to be.
Non-Muslim response - Tread very carefully and do not offend us
Consequence of non-compliance - We will get very cross and stamp our feet

GUARDED
Meaning - We are quite offended, because people are generally picking on us.
Non-Muslim response - Stop making jokes about us
Consequence of non-compliance - We will rant on about "Islamophobia" and "Orientalism", although we don't understand what those words really mean

ELEVATED
Meaning - We are definitely cross, because people keep blaming us for 9/11, Parisian cars getting torched, Saudi women getting stoned
Non-Muslim response - Pretend that these things have nothing to do with Islam or Muslims, tell everyone how we brought algebra to 9th Century Spain
Consequence of non-compliance - We will cause even more mayhem. Did you leave your car out in the street?

HIGH
Meaning - We are extremely offended by a particular individual or country
Non-Muslim response - That individual or country must apologize
Consequence of non-compliance - Individual; Fatwa, assassination, or both. Country; Boycott (unless you export things the Saudi Royal Family are consumers of), and Saudi newspapers write a long string of boring and repetitive articles that you will never read but will drive Saudi readers to distraction.

SEVERE
Meaning - We have had enough of your rudeness and ridicule and have gone completely ballistic
Non-Muslim response - We demand that the Pope and President Bush go down on their knees and apologize personally for every rude thing that everyone has ever said about us over the last 1400 years, and promise that it won't happen again
Consequence of non-compliance - We will cease the export of oil, therefore depriving the numerous Saudi Royal Family of all income, we will cease the import of all cars, tanks, airplanes (military and civil), computers, building technology, infrastructure and general professional expertise, and we will stop visiting Western fleshpots like the South of France, the USA, London..... Honest. We will. We really mean it this time. Just you wait. We really will. You better believe it. We're not kidding. We're telling you. Honest. Don't make us do it.....

Anyway, we are now on....**highly offended**
....so watch out

Well, whats your point? Eat Danish products till you explode, its your right. If that is how you think then why are you here smearing your verbal diarrhea
all over the Internet? Why are you so mad at Muslims
using their own right to boycott, other then that going against you racist imperialist princibles?
Please stopp with that Mohameddan lable, we are not in the Middle Ages anymore. Today we are called Muslims if you notice. Being violent and threatening violence is all you "western" peace doves can do. Why not answer my question for a change?

P.S
why call me KKK?
It wasnt my grandfather
lynching Afro Americans

karim83-

Bring it on!

Karim-

The point is, Muslims seem to have no problem with suicide bombings, terrorist attacks in general, throat slittings, honor killings, stonings, hanging of young women who defend themselves from being raped,genocide in Darfur, murder of children in Beslan etc etc etc.

All these disgusting actions take place in your world to NO comment. Yet let someone make fun of you, and then let the worldwide whining begin! Do you ever wonder why people disrespect you? Could it be something to do with YOUR actions?

Oh, of course not. Muslims are always victims.

karim83 aka KKK
Until around the late 1980s, the word was commonly spelled Moslem. The spelling has since fallen into disuse. Muslims do not recommend this spelling because it is often pronounced "mawzlem," which sounds somewhat similar to an Arabic word for "oppressor"

Former president Bill Clinton has stepped up to a microphone in Qatar to condemn the published cartoons. He warns of "rising anti-Islamic prejudice." His statements reminds me of the fact that the rich and powerful, among them the executives at Google, Microsoft's Bill Gates, etc. are willing to support the suppression of free speech for political and economic gains. I have an international food store near my home. I am buying as many food products from Denmark as I can find. It seems that JW is being visited by readers from the WatchingJihadWatch site. Since Muslims seem to be so easily "enflamed" by viewpoints contrary the weird universe of Islam (where rape victims are killed to save the family honor)they should be warned to take their blood pressure meds before visiting this site.

It's a damned shame that we are educating our enemy. We should refuse any students from countries that preach our destruction. Lenin was right.

Some news from Czech Republic:

Two mainstream news servers published some of the drawings. Look at:

http://ihned.cz/1-10070880-17722960-003000_d-50

and

http://aktualne.centrum.cz/zahranici/evropa/clanek.phtml?id=62779

Let's see what happens.

And we are spreading "Buy Danish" and "Draw your Mohamed" campaigns.

A capitalist will sell you the rope to hang him with -- Lenin

Ofcourse Muslims have "no problem with suicide bombings, terrorist attacks in general, throat slittings, honor killings, stonings, hanging of young women", or that is what you would like to be true.
Well, guess what? I have a problem with all of these thing and all the Muslims I know have a problem with all of these things. Anyway, who made you an expert on what Muslim think and what they dont think? Now answer me this question, do you have a problem with
Christians bombing Muslims civillians in Iraq( about , using phosphour and cluster bombs, raping children
and prisoners, shooting wounded people in mosques,
kidnapping the women of insurgents, or Jews bulldozing Houses and plantations, sniping children and old men, or river poisoning, chemical weapons and mass murder in Cheynia? Do you? And by the way, we prefer not to say Christians and Jews, we say Americans and Israelis. You dont like, that makes me
sad. Guess what? I dont like you either or that silly website here, I dont like your president and his policies I dont like your Ally Israel. But other then you I have rational reasons for that.

Karim Khayal

To Karim: (who already seems to be enflamed) Yes, the United States had a system of using and abusing Africans and later African-Americans as slaves. Notice that I used the past tense "had." The same cannot be said in the "Muslim" world, where millions of third world workers are used and abused in the Gulf countries, the ground zero of Islam, Saudi Arabia, being the worst offender, and where slavery is still practiced by Arab Muslims in Sudan and Mauritania. I realize these facts are hard to deal with...please take your meds. The world does not need more enflamed Muslims.

P.S
why call me KKK?
It wasnt my grandfather
lynching Afro Americans

Posted by: karim83
Right, karim. But your co-religionists are enslaving blacks in Sudan as we speak. All the mayhem in the world....a large portion is because moslems can't allow infidels to live better than moslems. Face it...you follow an evil religion, which demands the death of those who will not convert.

Surely this is the work of Westerners who are computer literate and sympathise with respect to the dasterdely excesses in cartoon form that Islam's prophet has been subjected to in Denmark. Posted by: Naseem

While Naseem's prophet is being subjected to [harmless] cartoons...

Numerous pictures of actual reality can be shown that do ''''subject'''' the character of Islam's prophet to some righteous scrutiny . http://palestinename.com/frheartbreak.htm

Doesn't the Islamic world know ANY shame Naseem?

Mass Murder.........................009.005 033.061

Mass Rape............................033.050 033.052

Beheadings............................047.004

Cutting off hands and feet.......005.033

Crucifixions............................005.033

Treason.................................008.067

If those teachings [of which the real pictures do so tell the truth - and it's brutal] are 'Holy' - then what in Islam - is not Holy?

Not bowing to those teachings?

You dont know how much you disgust me. Karim Khayal

hmmm......and rape and the cutting off of hands and feet doesn't?

How Brazen! It is God Who gives life - thereore ONLY God has the right to take it.

What right do any of you have in taking my life? You did not give me my life - nor can you give it back once it is taken.

Your complaints over the cartoons rather than what your prophet is actually causing is of the utmost disgrace!

And by the way, we prefer not to say Christians and Jews, we say Americans and Israelis.
Holy sheep stuff! We can go to Memri anytime and watch the speeches by clerics calling for "Christians and Jews" to be killed in various ways.

Saudi Arabia has officially abolished slavery and those people from Pakistan,Bangladesh and Afghanistan
are guest workers with an exitry-entry Visa. And yes, there is discimination. I have lived in Saudi Arabia
for fifteen years and smearing Islam with the problem and discriminations that workers face is ridiculous.
In my family is was an Islamic obligation to treat any made working in our house fairly. Then again, why the hypocricy? Saudi Arabia imprisons anyone protesing its Monarchy and all Muslims know that it is and undecent form of Goverment. And they know that it is just another client State, like most Dictators in the Middle East, of the United States.

Karim Khayal

Come on muslims make sure no one on the planet doesn't know about the cartoons. Much to do about nothing.

Karim-
"Well, guess what? I have a problem with all of these thing and all the Muslims I know have a problem with all of these things".

Words are empty. What are you DOING about it?

By Peter Fisher
Well, now that Hamas is at the helm once again, leading the Palestinians into the Dark Ages, the world is once again put in a situation where we have to find a way to deal with them. Not just as the well know terror group under Arafat, but as an elected government of a people known for constant bloodshed.

It makes me wonder sometimes if there will ever be a solution to that side of the world and the religious ideologies that support bloodshed and slaughter under the dictates of Islam. I have serious doubts that as long as so many are so deceived and have been for generations, that peace can thrive between Islam and the rest of the world.

But I am willing to give it a shot. Why not? I have seen and heard so many Muslims claiming this is not Islam, and that Islam is indeed a peaceful religion. And in the same breath I hear how naïve my understanding of the Koran is; that we as non-Mohammedans simply have no clue as to our understanding of the Koran.

So I say put your faith into action all you followers of Mohammed. Leave these lands of ignorant people and go forth into the world and teach your own. Sell your belongings in America, Europe, Canada, Israel, and move to those areas where millions of Muslims are defiling your religion. Take all that hard earned money the infidels provided for you and use it to build schools that teach your peaceful brand of Islam.

Build mosques and preach your message in the streets as you do in Michigan. Buy those loudspeakers and debate with the mullahs who teach slaughter and hate in the name of your god and prophet. Stand up for your faith and call these terrorist like Bin Laden out in the street and have a showdown with the truth. Rid Islam of what you claim is distorted doctrine and cleanse the minds of your people with your version of the truth.

Mass together and protest the mosques, protest Hamas, protest the Maddrassas, protest the speeches in your holy places. You have the energy to do this, and you have the resources to do these things. Because you can find ways to sue those in America you claim refuse your rights. CAIR has roots in Palestinian terrorism, your charities have given to Hamas again and again. Don't leave this task of dealing with them to those who do not understand. Take the responsibility and do it yourself.

The Jewish prophets of old, they protested in their temples, they taught loudly from the streets and from the public places. They condemned their own for warping the Holy Scriptures and the defiling the holy places in Israel. And many died.

Christians died by the thousands for teaching their way, as they still do today at the hand of your peaceful brethren. They later stood and fought the teachings of the church when they thought the bible had been hijacked. They stood, they taught, and they died because the faith they had was strong and pure.

And they still band together to condemn the teachings or actions of their own whether it is sipping poison in the jungle or using a priestly position for evil. And they refuse to accept it and they refuse to stand still. And they do not simply place and ad in a paper or have a fast press release, they change laws and they make a difference.

So you millions of Muslims worldwide, what will you do with your faith? Try to teach us infidels about the wondrous things in Islam you claim are abundant? Is this the measure of your faith, to allow your own to be deceived and continue their evil? Or is your religion simply words and no conviction towards your own? Is Allah not important enough to you that you would sacrifice living among infidels to teach those who use his name?

They are after all just a small minority according to CAIR representatives, and any other Muslim organization that has made this claim in America and elsewhere. So stand up in the manner of men with courage and put a stop to the madness within your own ranks. If you allow us to deal with it, we will deal with them as a political entity and not as a religious one. We will not scream about the greatness of our God while we cut someone’s head off on videotape. We will not praise Jesus while sending in our troops and bombing your lands. We will simply deal with it to survive as a culture. Because Islam will be the cause of the next World War, it is adverse to mankind and its survival. It cannot, in its present state reside in peace with anyone else.

Hamas is already chomping at the bit, Muslims. Iran has already screamed for the eradication of Israel, Pakistan is not entirely stable; you have dozens and dozens of radical groups to teach. Or will you allow them to continue spewing hatred and threats in the name of your god and prophet? Is your faith at least as strong as the Jews and Christians before you? Or is just for show in an American courtroom when lawsuits are filed against infidels?

I charge you all to leave these lands and take back your religion! You do nothing for your faith here and your religion is on the brink of insanity worldwide. We who are ignorant have the faith, but according to you, we do not understand. So who then is able?

As a wise bear once said: “Only YOU”.

Hello all,

I must admit that I did not get to see the cartoons. I looked around for them but they seem to have been taken off. Anyone got a URL?

I did see some others....but I don't think they were from Denmark, (one of them showed Muhammed with a lit bomb in place of his turban. I am constantly told that they were done for the right of freedom of speech & actions.

I do agree with Karim's comments as to why he has been labelled as KKK or Moslem for simply posting on JW. I think you must respect his right to post as Karim83....just like you do.

I used to (and sometimes still do) get this type of abuse....why....what's the point? Just stick to addressing the points raised....I have said this many times.

Karim83 though I am an (Ahmadi) muslim I apologise on behalf of the Infidel here who don't know any better than to attack the messenger (i.e. you, not the prophet).

Now onto the cartoons themselves...or the message behind them....I guess one can take things a bit far in the name of freedom.....but I certainly don't think that people should have to go in hiding for that....for example muslims could have a pop at Isa(pbuh) in cartoon form if so necessary....but what's the point?

Karim83, I am more interested in the form of the cartoon (Muhammed(pubh) with a lit bomb in place of his turban) and the message that it portrays.

From childhood I have been taught that the prophet was a man of extreme gentleness and generosity....but then I read that he had carried out terrorist raids, that he had beheaded people and that he had married Aiesha when she was six. Also that the modern terrorist follows his prophet's lead.

This deformed picture of our beloved prophet really got me as angry as you are today. So, I read some from muslim sources and Hadith and Sunna...and lo behold some of it was true....it said so in the Hadith.

Now this put me in a bit of a spin and if truth be told still has. I however am more fortunate than you because as an Ahmadi muslim I see read and practice only the most gentle form of Islam.

Some of the muslims I know are the most gentle people on Allah's (swt) earth. And so today I am still a proud Ahmadi.

I also think that wanting to behead someone on account of the cartoon is fulfilling the message depicted in the cartoon...so the infidel is then proved right about Muhammed's (pbuh) character.

Much better to do things the Infidel way....let them draw whatever cartoons they want to in the name of freedom.

Rather than reacting to this, the Wuslim in the West instead should raise his children as peacable citizens who are successful in business, politics and education so that we can compete with the Infidel and surpass them. I hate to see illiterate muslims ( I have two childrens both at Uni).

Ensure that you childrens are better educated...and then get the best jobs...and then invest in Islam in the west...architecture, mosques, bookshops, halal food outlets, Islamic banks, Jilbab R us clothes shops etc. etc. all done in peace with the Infidel's blessings. Done like this Tony Blair and George Bush will be our best allies.

We will be successful in the long run...because we will have the childrens (the infidel birth rate is falling) and the successful business.

Why do you care so much about the cartoons....infact I would like to see them voiced over too....If our prophet was not so gentle and ordered death fathwas...better that our childrens know about this rather than hide it...for there is no hiding the truth....

What difference does it make...you still have the message of the Koran don't you?

ok every body its rtime to help the dannes out post the pic every where you can.

find the pics here. http://2faces.myfreebb.com/viewtopic.php?t=2155

What am I doing about it? You hypocrite want to make me responsible for all the real and imagined problems facing Muslims today? You want me to throw myself on the floor and declare what an evil religion Islam is?Why dont I see you protesting Guantanamo or Israeli occupation? Did you protest Ethnic Cleansing in Bosnia and the war in Iraq? Come on, you live in a democracy.Why do I see a close connection between Republican Fundamentalists and the Bush administration? They were all very hot and eager for this war. Quite contrary to them the kidnappings in Iraq and the Terror Attack in New york were universally condemmed by Muslim clerics. And the reason Palestinians voted for Hamas is that it is your dollar and silence upholding that dreadful occupation in the Middle East. You want us to go ?Well, ok. Then take the thousandths of troops stationed in the Gulf, the 150 OOO soldiers in Iraq,your so called infidels getting fat on oil money and arab generosity in the gulf, and your dredfull Ally Israel. Oh, and dont forget those dictators of yours.We dont want them.

Karim Khayal

Geez, Naseem, you are nauseating.

karim83, may your camels all have humps.

or here. http://terror-watch.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4064

Ofcourse if they have nothing left to say they start with the camel talk and making fun of arabic dress. Thats ignorance in its truest from. Never mind that the majority of Muslims are Indonesians, not Arabs. Never mind that their culture which they call Judeo-Christian started in the desert, probably on the back of a camel. And by the way, I am more European then Arab. Do you people have anything comparable in your history with the generosity of Kaliph Omar when he took Jerusalem, or with Salah el deens generosity when he took back the same city?
That is history to by the way.

Karim Khayal

I have a comprehensive set of the cartoons

here (Don't forget to click on them to get the full size)

http://moparody.blogspot.com/

Karim, you are a troll and you should get back in your hole...

Hey Daffersd, I remember that song as well.
Hello Children Everywhere.

Now, without a shred of evidence you claim that it was the Muslim Arabs, not the Portugese, Africans themselves or Spanish, who sold the Slaves. Let me ask you, who was the one who forced the great many Muslim Slaves to convert to Christianity? I dont suppose that happened with the "Christian" way of love; did it? You ridiculous claim that Mohammed(pbuh) degredaded blacks makes want to cry. Einstein was obviously right. Ever heard of Billal the first Muezein, a former black slave from Abysinnia? Did you ever hear of the famous saying of Mohammad that "all people are equal like the tooth of a brush"? Ever wondered why so many blacks converted and still convert to Islam? What Made Malcom x leave the Nation of Islam and become a Sunni? He saw the equality bestowed on Muslims, Black and White, in Mecca. Yes, thats right. I suggest you to stop drinking from this poison well here. If many thinhs happening in Muslim countries are less then appealing
it doesnst all of Islam bad.

Karim Khayal

LOL Karim..... try stand up comedy it's more your style.

Why dont I see you protesting Guantanamo or Israeli occupation? Did you protest Ethnic Cleansing in Bosnia and the war in Iraq?

For one, I support Guantanamo. We are at war, those "gentlemen" are prisoners of war and are right where they belong.

Two, I support the Israelis. Brave little Israel, surrounded by millions who would like to destroy her, has kicked butt every time she's been attacked. The Palestinian situation is the fault of the Arab countries who attacked Israel, and created the whole mess. Israel has dealt with her enemies in a much more humane way then the Arabs ever have. What's not to like?

The US sent troops Bosnia to protect the Muslim population there. And have gotten zero gratitude in return, so to my mind it was a big waste of time, money, and US soliders lives.

The war in Iraq may yet prove to be another big waste of time. We'll see if the Iraqis get their act together and create a decent society for themselves and their children. I certainly hope so.

I also will support any actions against Iran to halt their pursuit of nuclear weapons.

Utimately, I would be quite happy to let Muslims work together to reform their societies. But,
the simple fact is, you don't. Then you try to export the same dysfuntional system to the rest of the world in order to make yourselves feel better.

Thanks, but no thanks.

So, time to put your money where your mouth is.

Yes thats true. I must truly have a sense of humour arguing with the like of you.

karim83-

Why would anyone want to follow the teachings of a pedophile warlord?

I truly don't get it.

The sins of Christians and Jews are meaningless when it comes to this core essence of Islam.

Does the bad behavior of your neighbor make it good for you to do evil also?

And what would make you wish to believe in this "prophet" who preached a global domination of all "infidel" peoples by his cult, the creed of a man who stole his son-in-law's wife (and conveniently got Allah to write a special dispensation, just for him, in the Koran to excuse it), married a 6 year old child, then raped her when she was 9, terrorized all who would not bow to his will, and approved of assassinating a poetess who mocked him in satirical verses, among many other dismal facts told in the Hadiths and the Koran itself. Or have you never really read either source for what you profess to follow?

And what craziness is it to have a dogma that says: kill anyone who leaves the faith?

This is inhuman, imbecilic and deplorable.

It is a retrograde, unpeaceful 'religion', and, as an agnostic, I have little use for any faith that proclaims the sanctified ending of open thought, the tethering of skeptical inquiry, the terrorising of anyone who disagrees with you, and will fight to retain the basic human freedoms guaranteed in the U.S. Consitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Christ, the Buddha and Lao Tse make sense. Mohammad makes death.

For once, according to your goverment these captives are NOT prisoners of war, they therefore have no right to a lawyer, nor to any sort of appeal or legal representation. How then do you know that they are terrorists? I prefer to ask Amnesty International and Human Rights watch concerning the "humane" treatmeant of those prisoners. They have called for Guantanamo and all those illegal CIA bases in Europe, to be closed IMMEDIATELY. Twist it all you want, the only thing that makes you better then people blowing up innocent civillians in Metro stations are your silly excuses.

Well, you say that Israel kicks butt? If that is what
you call killing 4000 people, among then 900 minors, I suggest a good therapy, especially against your lack of empathy. You claim that you are at war. Who attacked you,Iraq? And if being at war makes you forgett all those princibles you talk your mouth fussy about then you are the disease, not Islam.

Karim Khayal

karim

Since you brought up the subject what good things are muslim countries doing?

just on bbc world they managed to show one cartoons...
Yet the cartoon just happen to be one of the false pix that the moslims added
The pig one

I noticed that too, Shiva. I've got a screen-grab at my blog - not very good quality but you can see it's one of the fakes.

Has the Brussels Journal been hit by a DNOS too? I can't seem to access their site.

Sorry missed the www bit out in the above link for Brussels Journal.

Brussels Journal OK now. Forget I mentioned it.

All the more reason to stop contact between the Muslim world and the west. We don't, and won't, ever mesh in any sense of the word.

Please, boycott us! Stop buying our products.
Stop taking our financial aid. Stop leaving Muslim lands for your education.

Stay far, far away, and enjoy sharia law and it's charming customs in peace.

The world will be a better place, at least for us infidels.

Well, I dont see a muslim country occupying another country, building illegal settlements, stealing its water and making life unbearable for the indigenous population? Nor do I see another muslim county falsifying evidence in order to attack another. Contrary to your claim Israel has made peace with Egypt and Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are by no stretch of the imagination a danger. So where is that danger you talk about? Even Saudi Arabia offered Israel full diplomatic relation but was rebuked. Israel vetoes
every UN resolution for the two state settlements,65 till now, and the Arab Leaque votes for it. Stop declaring war on an ethnic group and a religion and covering all reality with your righteous mythology .

karim83-

Didn't think you had any answer to the funda-mental questions about why anyone with a brain more advanced than a coelecanth would fall for the terrorizing preachments of a pedophile "prophet".

Better to yell at everyone else -trying to defend themselves against the extremism emanating from Islamic Imperialism- rather than look within to the core of your own creed for its root faults. (Why are women "only worth half the value of a man" in the Koran?)

"Free your mind, and the rest will follow." - as the lovely En Vogue girls sang.

I repeat what good things do muslim countries do. Leave off with the attacks about what you suppose others are doing and answer my question.

Covering reality with righteos mythology? I don't have a mythology. I am an Atheist.

"Stop declaring war on an ethnic group and a religion and covering all reality with your righteous mythology".

I have no desire to start a war, unless my civilization is threatened (as it is with Iran and the bomb). Hugh argues that invading Iraq was a waste of time, and he may be right.

Sure, I'll be happy to withdraw from any contact with any Muslim country whatsoever.

I believe energy independence is a great idea, let's get started. We can immediately stop all Muslim immigration to the west. Then you can work on solving your own problems without our interference.

Sunnis, Shias, etc can all join hands and sing kumbaya.

We in the west can then pursue our infidel ways in peace and prosperity. Sounds good to me.

Gosh, Karim, you've got me convinced!
Can we ship the Guantanamo boys to your house for safekeeping?

Hmmm, attacks on Friday... I wonder if they were perhaps encouraged by Friday sermons at the mosque, calling for such attacks on the infidel newspaper?

Now, you see Karim, that's the type of thing that's going around in my head these days, courtesy of years of bad news coming out of Dar al Islam. Trust me, I wish it wasn't so. But then apologists for the various bullying tactics keep that wheel spinning and I hear the lamest excuses for the bullying. Here's the issue from where I stand:

Free speech includes the right to say things that may be unpopular but are nevertheless true. If these cartoons are saying something untrue, then any concerned Moslem can take the initiative to point that out through proper communication channels and a responsible journal will pull the story and issue an apology. An irresponsible journal may persist, but will, in the western system, leave itself open to libel or defamation charges. But death threats for Blasphemy? Well, that's not the law in the West. Moslems in Denmark should use appropriate legal channels to present their grievances. Moslems not in Denmark should mind their own business, unless they agree that this permits non-Moslems to use the same tactic. From your earlier postings, I'm guessing that that is not the position you take.

I noticed that the story is being covered on the al Jazeera website (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/0714852B-BC46-4BA2-B2A6-10990F9E0F12.htm) and there was a quote that I'm sure was meant to be helpful to non-Moslem readers who are a little confused about all the fuss concerning some cartoons. It reads:

"Islamic tradition bars any depiction of the prophet, even respectful ones, out of concern that such images could lead to idolatry."

There are a few points of note here

1) For the many non-Moslems who read this site and to avoid confusion, the prophet referred to above is Mohammed, the prophet of Islam,
2) It is ISLAMIC tradition that bars any depiction of Mohammed. Denmark is a secular state. Moslem rules don't apply,
3) The phrase "even respectful ones," in references to images of Mohammed, jumped out at me. It just seems a curious way of phrasing things, seeming as it does to put respectful images of Mohammed into a somewhat smaller contigency; an unlikely but non-neglible possibility. I'm still scratching my head as to the significance, if any, of that phrasing,
4)It is further explained that the reason for the prohibition against images of Mohammed is to prevent idolatry. May I suggest that that possibility is very remote indeed, apparently in Denmark, but certainly from where I'm standing.

Can you explain to me, Karim, why there is such a fuss about these cartoons? Why should this newspaper retract them? Don't you agree that the only sensible interpretation for the attention this matter has gathered in the Islamic is one of outraged pride? Outrage that there are others in the world who scorn many of the tenets of Mohammed's religion and who will exercise their rights to speak the truth as they see it?

Well, you smart ass, would you like to add some new verses to the Quran? There is no such thing as women being only half the of worth men.You wont find it because it doesnt exist.In the last speech of Moahmmad(pbuh) he admonished his people to treat women with kindness and to give them their right.And all this junk you talk about women being mistreated in all Muslim countries. Well, there are more female Professors in Iran and Turkey then in Germany,Egypts parlament is one third female.Iran had a female presidential candidate. The Islamic world is not one monolithic block, but very diverse. The unchanging Orient is a figment of your Orientalistic imagination. Cant you do anything but throwing around with your excrements? There is no religious book so tolerant as the Quran. You call Mohammad a terrorist, then please explain his behaviour toward his tribe Kureish when he conquered Mecca? Lets not forget what the god of the Old Testament ordered Joshua to do when he conquered Jericho.And in all your disgusting talk of Mohammad having Aisha at age six, there seems to be no such comment from Aisha, who was one carrying the legacy of the Prophet, collecting
Quran verses and Hadith. All sources point to the Prophet point to being deeply kind to her and she loving him in return.

Karim Khayal

You always throw around the idea of free speech.
Now imagine this. A cartoon in the New Time of a Jewish caricature made of corpses,with a david star on his head and horns growing out of him. In case the Anti Defamation leaque protested, would you also sqeual about free speech?I dont think so. If you are so for free speech, why attack the president of Iran? According to your logic he didnt made his silly comments in his own country , he is therefore not accoutable fo what he said.And yes, free the prisoners of Guantanmo if there is no charge against.
If there is put in them in a court. That would be the justice you always talk about. But then again, that is ofcourse just breast beating.

karim khayal

Karim, are you sure you are a Muslim?

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' "

Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari 5.234
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 90
Narrated Aisha:
When the Prophet married me, my mother came to me and made me enter the house (of the Prophet) and nothing surprised me but the coming of Allah's Apostle to me in the forenoon.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

Things are not as clear and widely accepted as you want them to be. The Hadith are supported by a chain of Isnad and simply pointing
to a saying without giving background of the delivered is typical for those who attack Islam.
Here is another opinion by Maulana Muhammad Ali from his book "Muhammad,the Prophet". Note that it wasnt and still isnt the custom of Arabs to marry their girls that young.

“A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time. Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be. This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.”

Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”

http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352728&TOCID=2083225348

"And in all your disgusting talk of Mohammad having Aisha at age six, there seems to be no such comment from Aisha, who was one carrying the legacy of the Prophet, collecting
Quran verses and Hadith".

I just gave you the authentic Muslim sources with comments from Aisha, where you claimed there were none.

And finally-how about the legal age of marriage for girls in Iran TODAY, based upon Mohammed's stellar example? I guess the Muslims of Iran are misinterperting Islam again?

Funny how often that seems to happen.

Nice try, but no cigar, Karim.

"Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.”

We have had discussion on here before with a Muslim named Shukri who was quite insistent that I should consult his source http://www.muslim-answers.org/aishah.htm where, he assured me, I would see the truth about Aisha's marriage, and would come to understand how Mohammed's sexual intercourse with a child of barely 9 years old was a good thing.

And quote from that source of one of your predecessors in the troll department -

From Muslim Answers Website

" THE ISLAMIC EVIDENCE OF 'AISHAH'S AGE

Due to the apparent ignorance of many Muslims, possibly due to reading "modernist" apologetic literature like that mentioned above, a look at what the authentic sources of Islam say about the age at which 'Aishah married the Prophet is in order. This way, before we move on to an analysis of the facts, we will first establish what the authentic Islamic facts are. At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of 'Aishah is "not found in the Qur'an", since the textual sources of Islam are made up of BOTH the Qur'an and the Sunnah - and the Qur'an tells us that. For those wanting (or needing) to learn more about the status of the Sunnah in Islam, please read An Introduction to the Sunnah and/or The Sunnah and Its Position in Islamic Law. Now in regards to what the authentic Islamic sources actually say, it may come as a disappointment to some "modern" and "cultured" Muslims that there are four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari and three ahadith in Saheeh Muslim which clearly state that 'Aishah was "nine years old" at the time that her marriage was consummated with the Prophet . These ahadith, with only slight variation, read as follows:

'Aishah, may God be pleased with her, narrated that the Prophet was betrothed (zawaj) to her when she was six years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years. (Saheeh al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64)"

That discussion was on April 14th 2005 on a JW thread called "CAIR Texas Chapter Founder Found Guilty of Supporting Jihad Terror"

karim83-

So it's o.k. for a 55 year old terrorizing warlord to rape a 14 or 15 year old and not a 9 or 10 year old?

Interesting mindset you subscribe to.

But the late, unlamented Islamic scholar Ayatollah Khomeini (may he be roasting slowly on a spit in Gehenna) decreed that 9 years old was the legal age for marriage because of the "perfect man" Mohammad's example.

Split hairs all you want, but the "prophet" was a dictatorial despot who brought the long-suffering world one more mass-murdering, mind-killing cult.

Abandon its cruelties and corruptions and start thinking for yourself and escape from this 7th century creed of contempt for all who will not submit to its contemptuous and tyrannical will.

"Please stop with that Mohammedan label, we are not in the Middle ages anymore. Today we are called Muslims." post by Koranic Karim Khayal

Why does the reference to your great leader Mohammed upset you? I believe in Jesus Christ, and I proudly refer to myself as a Christian. If you believe in Mohammed, why aren't you a Mohammedan? Are you embarrassed? Just because Mohammed was a lying, murdering, thieving, raping, child molester is no reason to be ashamed.

Does anyone have a link to the original cartoons? Haven't been able to find them.
Thanks.

GFB-

Why no "Mohammedan" talk is allowed.

It's because they don't want to have any possibility of idolatry of Mohammad (pb&j).

As if anyone with more than two functioning brain cells would have to worry about idolizing a character who sanctified theft, rape, slavery, lying, terror and treachery to promote his despotic cult.

(Unless you were a headhunter, of course.)

First of all, I never claimed that Muslims never conquered another country. I said currently there is no Muslim country occuping another. Second of all Mohammad NEVER beat any of his wives and that stands as fact. No matter what you think of his polygamy, it is true that he also married widows and elderly women. Second, you are quoting a Hadith and I as a Muslim never heard anyone quote it. It doesnt figure so much because there about 7000 Hadith in Bukhari. And that thing you claim about Zorastrian being persecuted, why was the Jizya and the title of people of the book then passed along to them? All Historians point to the fact as a general rule. Zorastrian were(mostly) NOT persecuted and that is why there is still in 1400 years of muslim rule a community in modern Iran. About 1200 years Muslims ruled India and now the Muslim population is about 10 percent, so where is that so called forced conversion you always talk? Why not mention the oppression of Muslims in Kashmir by India and the massacre of Guajarat? The coptic population exceeded that of the Muslim till about 1400. As a matter of fact they welcomed Muslim rule, freeing them from the Greek Orthodox church. They had power over finances and the power of the Patriarch extended way into North Africa. ANYONE who has ever been to Egypt and seen the churches sprout out of the ground realizes that the so called restrictions are just an exaggerated myth.Jews being in Palestine immemorial? I dont doubt that Jews have a history in Palestine. Yet when Muslim conquered Palestine in 636 the majority of the population were Christians, having been Jews. And now the majority is Muslim. In other words the descendants of the Palestinian Jews. So stop all that cuddle muddle about Time immemorial. A Russian Jew has about as much ethnic connection with Palestine then I have with Tajkant.

Karim Khayal

Karim

Equating the outrage over cartoons depicting Mohammed (now deceased) to the outrage over the Iranian President's calls denying the Holocaust(6 million deceased but some still living) or to put Israel into a "permanent coma" seems a bit inappropriate. I don't see how the honor paid to a dead Moslem is in any sense equivalent to the murder of innocents or the right of all people to live in peace and freedom of conscience.

However, as you correctly point out, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad made his comments in Iran. I have heard no calls from Israeli crowds screaming in the streets to go to Iran and kill him. I think that in the West people simply recognize that he's a potential threat, but not yet guilty of having overtly committed any crime, so let him say what he wants. His lies are transparent.

No doubt he has his own view of things. He calls himself a good Moslem and he calls for war against those he claims are the enemies of his religion. This is obvious. Indeed, his positions seem highly consistent with the attitudes expressed in the Danish cartoons, so perhaps now you can help me out: in what sense are the Danish cartoons inaccurate?

You know Tajkant well I take it. Have you seem this article from the BBC?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4611592.stm
A study of mitochondrial DNA - passed from mother to daughter, show that over half the Ashkenazim Jews alive today are descended from a small number of women who lived in the Middle East 1000 years ago.
Ever since I read this I have wondered how different this figure would have been before the holocaust.

Well, let us put this into perspective. The Iranian President DIDNT threaten Israel directly, nor has he any reason to. Any expected attack on Israel from Iran is pure fiction, invented by those steaming for war Neocons. What he wanted to do was to win sympathy with Muslims, expressing what many of them wish. That the reality of Israel would be different. His comments were tasteless and extraordinary dumb. Yet would anyone with half a mind make a military threat out of it? Do you know the movie Jud Suess? It was propaganda incinated by the Nazis to flare up hate against Jews. Now people can say it was just expression. But fact is, the gross missrepresentation
of a people led to a horrible crime. So why would we delight in insulting a major religion, or isolating a religious group wich so much tension already existing? Do you think this cartoon has any purpose but to offend? Not everything is free expression, otherwise there no need to fight against racist remarks or slurs.

here is a cartoon surely to drive the muslims nuts:

http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=mv6y5x

Anyone remember the commercial where a 'terrorist' pulls up in front of an establishment in a volks wagan and blows himself up?

The only thing destroyed - is inside the volks wagon. Now that was funny!

From childhood I have been taught that the prophet was a man of extreme gentleness and generosity....but then I read (on ProphetofDoom.org) that he had carried out terrorist raids, that he had beheaded people and that he had married Aiesha when she was six. Also that the modern terrorist follows his prophet's lead.

This deformed picture of our beloved prophet really got me as angry as you are today. Posted by Naseem

Naseem? are you aware of the horrid punishments spoken by Muhammad if any Muslim calls their 'Allah' a liar? those who deny his words?

From your Koran Naseem:

005.051 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors {authorities]: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them for friendship is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

009.123 O ye who believe! fight '''the unbelievers''' who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you.

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet '''the Unbelievers''' in fight, smite at their necks. {Behead them!

and the Muslims are commanded to initiate the fight:

002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing [war] which is good for you and that ye love a thing [peace] which is bad for you?

009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.

005.033 THE PUNISHMENT of those who '''wage war''' against Allah and His Messenger IS: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet.

Naseem? How does one justify hanging any human up to die? for any reason?

Now this put me in a bit of a spin and if truth be told still has. I however am more fortunate than you because as an Ahmadi muslim I see read and practice only the most gentle form of Islam.

A Christian teaching:

Jam 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? It either preaches good things - or it preaches bad things. Can not be both.

From your Koran Naseem....

009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.

1) It is THOUGHT that these women lived in the Middle East

2) The Middle East does not mean Palestine. Alexandria and Iraq always had a large Jewish community

3) Anyone wanting to know the difference between an Askenazi Jew and a Sephardi must ony look. Neither Jesus nor Moses had blue eyes and white skin

4) There is still the other 50 percent thinking they have the right to live in Israel.

5) There are studies showing that the mitochondrial DNA passed from the mother is not specific to the Middle East. Quite to contrary to Jewish law, Jewish men had Jewish children with non Jewish women

So why would we delight in insulting a major religion, or isolating a religious group wich so much tension already existing? Posted by karim83

Telling the truth about the results of the teachings of that religion is not 'insulting' that religion.

And the fact that the truth about it - has been kept hiden - is ignoring what is causing the tensions in the first place.

One truth that needs to be told to this whole world is the fact that Muhammad's god forgot to mention Palestine.

The God of the Bible gave an endtime prophecy about Palestine - and He condemned it. http://palestinename.com/frlord.htm

If anything - this world has no right in establishing Palestine - because neither the Bible nor the Koran justifies the demands for it.

This would be a good beginning for putting out the fires that are raging out of control all over the earth - no?

Like it or not - it is the Truth.

karim83-

Have you seen the original 12 cartoons? They are surprising mild, over all. More sardonic tweaks than apocalyptic excoriations.

(3 more images, oddly, were dreamed up and added by Muslims, which are the only really offensive ones from a strictly Muslim perspective [Mohammad with a pig's snout, etc.].)

The Danish cartoonists were using their legal freedom of expression, and right to criticize ANY extremists, by satirically commenting on Islamic terrorism and Salman Rushdie-eque death threats fatwa'd upon those who would exercise such freedom.

And remarking, in humorous images, on the inhuman Islamic horrors going on from Bali to Beslan, Iraq to Egypt, Syria to Iran, Indonesia to the Pakistan-harbored Taliban-who-want-to-reconquer-Afghanistan. And they show, among less precise jabs, things like Mohammad with a turban in the shape of a bomb with a burning fuse (Ever heard of suicide bombers? Suicide belts? ). Or similar apt cartooned critiques of the current murderous mindset on many Muslims... from Daniel Pearl's beheaders to the 9/11 Saudis who sliced stewardesses throats and slammed planeloads of helpless civilians into the WTC, slaughteriong thousands.

Islam has got a problem of self-control.

And too many of your mullahs, imams and ayatollahs, and their closest followers, are causing and gleefully promoting Koranic-sanctified terrorism worldwide. Or cheering it from the sidelines in comfortable cowardice. (By the way, how many Muslim women are allowed to imams, mullahs or ayatollahs? Since you claim women are so equal inside Islam.)

As long as the cry for a global theocratic despotism, called the Restored Caliphate, is the end goal for the core faithful of the Koran, the free world will oppose Islam's extremists.

Control the maniacs in your creed yourself -or they will be fought to the death until they join their historical brothers-in-mayhem, the Nazis, fascists, Moloch-worshippers, Aztec heart-rippers and other dark age dogmatisms.

Why you support a cult that opposes intellectual freedom, I freely confess I cannot fathom.

What do you gain but a mind prison?

(Maybe "Escape From Freedom" by Erich Fromm needs to go on your library card.)

This is probably the last thing I am going to post. Dont seperate the region from its political, economic, religious and sociological histoy. To claim that Islam is the only factor creating tension is ahistorical nonsense. And lets bring religion into this.Lets keep this nice and secular. Prophecy has no role in this. You claim tlaim that telling the truth is justification to spread defamatory cartoons. Well, in that case the Nazis were probably right, frightening people with the finances and the power of Jewish Bankers. You can twist it and say it was only truth. But it is a slur meant to offend. Do you know anything about Talmudic law? Have you ever read Israel Shahaks Jewish Fundementalism in Israel? I
now draw some pretty nasty cartoons about Haredim Jews prohibiting their girls to be properly educated, or calling for the destruction of all churches in Israel. Or I could make nasty little drawings about an offical terrorist orginization in the United States, the Jewish Defence Leaque, or of Aipac permitting Israeli spies in the White House. If this is truth, does it justify slur? If the majority of crime in the United States are commited by Afro Americans should we now go back to segregation? Tell me.

Karim Khayal

well, I dont really think I have a mind prison. Neither did the many Muslim,Astronomers,Mathematicians, Botanists,Chemics and Physicians of history. That is a side of Islam you cant ignore. And I agree, the Fundementalists will join the rubbish heap of history. Just the American Imperialists and the Zionists fighting for greater Israel.

good night

Just like the American Imperialists and Zionists fighting for a greater Israel.

good night

Hang on a minute, you said "This is my last post", and promptly posted again. Tis the nature of the beastie to disemble.

Now don't answer this, because you are not going to break your word and post any more are you? Just read.
There is no physical description whatsoever of Christ in the Bible so we have no idea what colour his eyes were. If you read the Bible, which I do recommend, you would see this. What matters about the Lord is not what He looked like but what He is.
But the Bible does give a physical description of King David, "born of David's line" who had red hair and rosy cheeks 1 Samuel 16:12 as did later descriptions of some of the Israelite women, rosy cheeks and blue (or grey) eyes often accompanying red hair. Egyptian Pharaoh Rameses II also had red hair.
Good night to you.

Prophecy has no role in this. Posted by: karim83

karim83 - yes - it does - when it as the Power to stop the fighting - it has EVERYTHING to do with it.

Surely some cartoons are in poor taste - and then again - some ARE funny, especially when they are no less than a presentation of the truth - told in another light.

I would like to see ne where Muhammad is thinking real hard "umm"...with blank thoughts coming from his head - when asked about Palestine at the Judgement.

You all realize that arguing with this Karim is an exercise in futility. He's been numbed by mindless repetition like flicking the devil out of his nostrils each the morning in a particular manner as Mad Mo commmanded. His entire day is consumed by mindless ritual to please allah (piss all over him).

As a follower of the worldwide deathcult, Karim is an automaton (like a Borg drone) whose sole purpose is to further the 'collective'. And like the Borg, the muzzie hordes (or Morg) descend on a society by force. Then they proceed to consume the entire thing. The people, the artwork, the buildings, the history, whatever it has is taken and put to use furthering the collective. When the Morg are done with it, there is little left including the people. They then move on to the next society.

For centuries the islamic hordes cut a wide swath of destruction spreading out from Mecca across northern Africa and up into Spain, down deep into sub-saharan Africa, and across into India and deep into southeast Asia. They pushed upward into Eastern Europe and almost took the entire European Continent several times except they were repeatedly beaten back by untold heroes who fought bravely and died in long-since forgotten battles of unimaginable cruelty.

karim engaging in this debate is just an act in furtherance of that time-honored islamic aim of conquest of Infidels. I can barely stomach even reading his posts because I know full well what he is trying to achieve. His lies and deceit are obvious to those of us who have done our homework on his deathcult and who understand what we are up against.

One day Karim, your deathcult will be outlawed all around the world. It's mosques and madrassas will be closed and shuttered. It's preachers of hate imprisoned or executed. And it's followers hunted down like rabid animals and put out of their misery on sight.

Islam is a cancer which has been festering in the gut of Civilization for over 1300 years. It grows and spreads then threatens the life of the host. And like a cancer it must be eradicated right down to the very last cell for the host to survive else the cancer grows back and once again threatens the existence of the host.

Well, forgive me for breaking my word. But this is interesting. I have here two Bible and the german translation says," He was brown skinned, with a slender figure and expressive eyes. Where is the line
with red hair? I have seen the mummy of Ramsses and his hair has changed color due to over a thousandth year death, not genetics. Blue eyes? How likely is that considering the Israelites are Semites, dark skinned nomadic people, originally driving their cattle from place to place. Jesus looked just like every Arab Jew, Yemenite or Iraqie, looks today. If there were no pictures of Mao, would we then draw him with Anglo Saxon features? No, because he is Chinese.
Jesus was a Palestinian Jew period.
That is really the last thing I am going to post. Sorry for breaking my word.

Good night

p.s

by the way, that is Masih-al Dajjal you mindless Nazi fuck

Sorry for breaking my word.
I didn't expect anything different sonny.

Chinese universities are producing 600,000 engineering graduates a year, compared to roughly 70,000 in America (of whom slightly over half are foreigners). The REAL threat from cyber-warfare comes from China.

Meanwhile, Mexican irredentism poses the greatest - and yet unacknowledged - existential threat to America's future as a nation.

It's not just about Islam folks. Just as we'd be fools to downplay the depredations of jihad and dhimmitude, we'd be equally foolish to overlook other looming threats.

Hello all,

Someone said "But the late, unlamented Islamic scholar Ayatollah Khomeini (may he be roasting slowly on a spit in Gehenna)"

LOL, where is Gehenna?

Beth...not too much reading now....you know you will have to increase that dose of pills you are on.

I wanted to make this point before saying bye too! There have been some muslims on this forum, me, brownfinger, Reza, DefenderofIslam, Shukri, Karim, Thomas.

But you know something ( and it's really disappointing too), everytime I try to talk to a muslim as soon as I say the magic word "Ahmadi"...he/she doesn't want to know...no communication, no hello, no Assumu-laikum, no drop dead...nothing...it's as if a *fellow* muslim has not made contact.

I mean for heavens sake...even Ironman Hondo has a dig in his own dour way (glub glub).

Ah well, not to worry tomorrow is another day, "when Allah gives permission for the swun to rise from the muddy depths".... byeeeee.

Naseem-

Gehenna is an old Greek word for a garbage burning ground that became synonymous with Hell.

And, since Mohammad used to dye his beard henna, an oblique etymological twisting of Khomeini's maniacal forelock. (If not his short hairs.)

Naseem sounds like she's had an encounter with a amateur neurosurgeon. One minute she's gloating over the imminent takeover of the West by Islam, then the next she's complaining that other Muslims won't acknowledge her for being an apostate Ahmadi. (Or could it just be because she's a woman? Or perhaps both?) It's hard to imagine the kind of cognitive dissonance she must experience when her Sunni 'brothers' slaughter her hapless Ahmadi cohorts in the name of Allah. The mind of a wannabe Muslim is, like the mind of a real Muslim, quite unfathomable.

Or the earlier comments-

She found out her prophet actually was a pedophile, a murderer, etc. Yet still follows the religion, and wants it to triumph over the more rational, civilized regions of the world, that would NOT kill her simply for being Ahmadi.

To paraphrase Michael Savage, Islam is a SERIOUS mental disorder.

Naseem, please ask yourself this question: If you have been lied to and misled by the Muslims who taught you, re: the revelations the infidels here at JW have shown you in the hadith and Q'uaran as to the true nature of what Mohammed said and did, what else have ou learned that is false? You need to seriously look at what Jesus said. If He said God was His Heavenly Father and that He would be crucified, buried and resurrected on the third day after his burial, isn't it possible the Q'uran is also wrong when it says Jesus (Isa in the Q'uran) was not cricified and that "Allah has no sons"? the Bible records many of Jesus prophecies. Not one of them has ever been proven wrong. The Q'uran has no prophecy yet you call Mohammed a prophet. No prophecy = no prophet!

Karim you asked "Do you people have anything comparable in your history with the generosity of Kaliph Omar when he took Jerusalem, or with Salah el deens generosity when he took back the same city?"
How about fighting Japan, Germany Italy and their numerous allies in WWII and then after defeating them rebuilding their countries and letting them set up their own governments nad keep their own countries? How about finding the oil in Saudi Arabia and other Muslimm countries, building the drilling rigs, getting the oil out of the ground, setting up pipelines and refineries and then letting their governments nationalize everything and take it? What about defeating the Taliban, al-queda and Saddam and building schools, hospitals roads, tv, telephone and other communications and other much needed public utilities as well as giving the people the freedom to vote and choose their own destiny? America has not gotten one barrel of oil from Iraq or Afghanistan. We have not taken any of their land. The two people whom you mentioned were rare exceptions to the 1400 years of Islamic conquest. Look up Moulay Ismail or Haj Amin al-Husseini. Or read the hadith about the raids and jihads Mohammed led and planned. Islam has always been spread by the sword, military conquest, rape plunder and murder. It is commanded and justified by the Q'uran. Every Muslim nation, except for Turkey, was forced to convert to Islam by war and sword. Turkey converted to Islam at the threat of invasion. Muslim countries killed and persecuted Christians, Jews and other non-Muslims and still do so today. Western nations never had a command that any one submit to being dhimmis, that they could not sit in the presence of their "superiors", had to have smaller houses, could not own weapons, could not defend themselves if attacked, could not repair old churches or synogogues or build new ones, could not ride horses, and all the other restrictions imposed on dhimmi and jizya. Western nations fought wars to end slavery. Islam still has slavery in Sudan, Senegal and Mauritania and quite possibly Saudi Arabia. Again, the Q'uran and hadith justify it and because Mohammed owned many slaves.

Bohemond-

We need to be very careful about trying to convert Naseem to Christianity. Many of us here on this site (me! me! me!!!) are in fact not Christians, but atheists, agnostics, Jews, Hindus, Wiccans, etc.

She, Naseem, has done us a great service in admitting her doubt concerning the "leader" of the abominable faith she was born into. Let's not push it.

I must admit, though...with every word she posts, she proves Mad Mo wrong at every step, though she is often loathe to admit it. We've never had a vacillating male Muslim at JW before. They leave, sooner or later, unable to commit to dialogue; and yet Naseem keeps coming back, despite the slings and arrows.

Maybe God IS truly a woman!!!! :)

Naseem wrote:
"....But you know something ( and it's really disappointing too), everytime I try to talk to a muslim as soon as I say the magic word "Ahmadi"...he/she doesn't want to know...no communication, no hello, no Assumu-laikum, no drop dead...nothing...it's as if a *fellow* muslim has not made contact. "

Can you believe how Naseem just doesn't get it??

Even though she *herself* regularly experiences oppression by muslims who consider her a so called "infidel", she fails to recognize the outrageousness (and deep ugliness) of this view of others. If she did, she'd reject it (and grow morally). In most people I've met, this would cause a new awakening of ethics. Thereafter, they'd lose the bigotry, and change how they think of others - and this is even like the "sensitivity" role playing that CAIR et al seek for organizations, schools, etc. (!)

Naseem, are you really impervious to this essential learning experience?

Are you Golden-Rule impaired?

I still cannot belief that this cartoon nonsense is still going on. The muslim world's boycott and attacks on Denmark is a tipping point. Denmark has to be strong to these bullies. I think these cartoons should be posted everwhere. I feel college campuses should display them and t-shirts should be produced with those cartoons on them. Does the muslim world have any sense of humour?

"Karim you asked "Do you people have anything comparable in your history with the generosity of Kaliph Omar when he took Jerusalem, or with Salah el deens generosity when he took back the same city?"

Actually Karim the West does - especially the ANZACS of WW1. The Australian lighthorse with the support of the Kiwi's were the first infidel army to liberate Israel from around 1200 years of Islamic rule. Something as an Aussie I am deeply proud. And guess what??? Many of these Aussie horseman, who inflicted a stunning victory against the Muslim Turks and the German allies, were die hard Christians! I know as a friend of mine is the granddaughter of these fine men. Where was 'almighty allah' when these Christain infidels kicked you out and enabled the return of the Jewish people.

In fact the Danish - British officer who masterminded the deception that led to the capture of Israel via Beersheba (maybe the Aussie's thought there was BEER at BEERsheba!) was an evil ZIONIST!!!

But that bit of modern history aside, both the Christian and Jewish books make reference to ISRAEL. Where is Jerusalem mentioned in the Koran, the heart of Israel??? Oh and the Christians follow a JEWISH book written by JEWISH authors, of which the majority of that book was written on LOCATION IN ISRAEL.

And the Koran is connected to Israel how??????

Granny - I have read that account of King David also in the "Complete Jewish Bible" (author is a Christian Jew who is also a scholar in Greek and Hebrew.

I checked the NIV (Nearly infallable version!!) and it doesn't make mention of it.

Who cares anyway. I know Christians are guilty of believing in the so-called science of Darwinism that led to all this "race" stuff, but the Bible makes it clear. We are all ONE BLOOD, ONE PEOPLE.

Only in the NIV (nearly infallible version) do you find the word "race" used in a context to describe a people group (Paul in the NT). The KJ versions do NOT use the word "race" in that context ANYWHERE!

On the other hand, the arabic word for slave and black is interesting, not to mention the division between different groups in the Koran.

The amount of enragement this Khalid guy has produced in me is nothing surprising. Such cognitive dissonance flows from all enraged muslims minds. He perhaps doesn't know or acknowledge that a Muslim painter Maqbool Fida Hussain in India has painted Hindu Goddesses in the NUDE COPULATING WITH ANIMALS in a country with 80% Hindu population. When he paints Mohammad's brides, he dons them in full covers.
For this travesty he receives the Padma Vibhushan award from the Govt of India which is the second highest honorary award in the country. Yes there were some Hindu nationalist organisations who street protested for a couple of days. That is all.....

PUHLEEEEEZ spare me the comparison with making fun of holocaust victims. You vicious muslim pigs will NEVER understand. You are indeed subhuman.

"Karim you asked "Do you people have anything comparable in your history with the generosity of Kaliph Omar when he took Jerusalem, or with Salah el deens generosity when he took back the same city?"

Yes, we do. For example when Neil Armstrong first stepped on the moon nearly 37 years ago(a technological marvel that the backward and regressive Islamic world wouldn't have had a prayer of achieving, and which was far more significant in the history of mankind than anything "achieved" by the warlord Umar Bin al-Khatab), he said "That's one step for man, one giant leap for mankind."

A prideful, bragging, boasting Muslim in Col. Armstrong's place would have jumped up and down like a monkey, bragging and boasting about how "Islam" and "Muslims" (the "best of all nations," you know) had "conquered" the moon.

The gracious and humble Christian astronaut Neil Armstrong acknowledged his feat in the name of all mankind, not in the name of the USA, but in the name of every human on earth -- he included kaffir-hating, prideful, bragging, arrogant, boasting and supremacist Muslims in the cateogry of all mankind along with everyone else.

More gracious than that, I have not ever seen in my lifetime.

Suzan-

Well said.

The quote by Armstrong, reportedly corrupted of one crucial little word by the static in his lunar broadcast, was supposed to be the more linguistically sensible:

"That's one small step for [A] man, one giant leap for mankind."

Muslim preachers worldwide in July 1969 protested this technological violation of their Islamic lunar symbol, ironically enough.

(Nowadays that quibble would probably have been enough for the whole Apollo Mission to be scrubbed for p.c. reasons, with Bill Clinton going off to Qatar where he could commiserate with the mullahs and call the entire NASA moon program an insult to the great religion of Islam. And collect a hefty 'honorarium' for his Quisling obeisance.)

Good Morning 3rdtimelucky
You are quite right, it doesn't really matter. But in the context of a young shaver, convinced he is right, to indroduce alternative arguements to make him think.
I had the discussion about the Jewish tradition that King David was ginger with Jewish friends, one of whoms flaming red hair exceeded the ginger nuts in my own family. I was paraphrasing the King James Authorised Version and, my preference for daily use, The Oxford/Cambridge New English Bible of 1970 which call him ruddy. And not tall.
It is certain from the descriptions of ancient writers that there were more blond haired, red haired (the red haired Keltai of Socrates and Platos time who were migrating west reached Great Britain and Ireland eventually where they became ginger Celts, Circassian women were prized for their blue eyes) and black skinned people all around the Ancient world than there are in that area now.
But as you say we are all one people, the human race, made in God's image, one body, one bread. Which is the very reason why we don't get a physical description of the Lord.

Salam

Well, I see you answered my question. Anything smarter then what you have me I wouldnt have expected. How about fighting a Germany that was already devastated from the Russian front and Allied bombings, how about attacking a country, Afghanistan, which offered to hand out Bin Laden if presented evidence. How about killing thousandths of innocent Afghanis and executing prisoners of war? How about American soldiers cutting of the ears off Japanese soldiers and keeping them as trophies, or collecting their bones, how about throwing an Atom Bomb on two cities and killing 300 000 Human beings in a war that was already won? How about entering a war, the Gulf War, like a mafia thug only to get millions of barrels of oil and billions of dollars in return? How about doing your best to keep, oh so threating, monarchy in place because it serves you? How about starving for 12 years a devastated popultation because the son of a bitch you installed was supposed to have weapons of mass destrcutions? How about falsifying evidence to start a war, kill thousadnths of civllians more with illegal weapons likes phosphour, rape, torture and pillage, all for oil? Well, I agree.
That sounds quite honorable to me.

And for heavens sake stop all that talk about blond, blue eyed people in the Middle East 2000-3000 years
ago. We are not in Disney Land here and this is not
a silly Martin Scorseese film. If Jesus came back today, he would get those suspicious look you give every Middle Eastern. Namely because of their big lips and nose, dark hair and skin. I know that it is difficult, seeing that keep your biblical prophecies always at reach to educate yourself about the Middle East today, but stick to reality.

Karim Khayal

Just a comment to all your glorious and kind Christian knights,lovingly calling me a subhuman infidel pig that needs to annihilated.Naseem is a male name, you know the boxer? Then again I am probaly asking to much of you.

Karim Khayal

Hello Karim,

I have explained to the postees here many times that I am a woman. Here are other examples of women called Naseem.

http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2005/rogers.htm

In August 2003, *Naseem Bibi* was beaten to death by other prisoners three months after *she* and her two sons were jailed for blasphemy. They had been falsely accused of burning pages of the Koran.

http://answers.google.com/answers/main?cmd=threadview&id=178693

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2005-daily/14-07-2005/main/update.shtml

Ghotki Tragedy: 46 dead bodies identified
which included "Naseem Bibi *w/o* Shaukat Ali (Wazirabad)".

Two things here....
1) It is easy to make assumptions and therefore mistakes, and I think you and others are guilty of that here.

2) It would be a terrible mistake to underestimate the intellengence of the infidel.

At the moment terrorists carry out excesses hiding behind the cloak of Islam. I think that while many will openly condemn the said deeds none the less from inside many are reasonably satisfied.

But we have to consider who suffers here most....actually that's people like me and you. We have both said on record that we don't condone violence...but the important things for peaceful muslims to understand are:

1) WHY do they use quotes from surahs to carry out these vile acts...on whose authority?

2) Why don't our leaders ...the top imams, the people from Alzar Uni ...come out against these acts....something about them being killed if they do perhaps? Why are they frightened..?

People wave their hand and say the terrorists only "rant and rave"....but these are REAL issues that affect you and me.

Tell me do you believe that the "shaeed warrior" really gets 72 virgins....what god would provide this sort of reward for vile ghastly violent acts?

I believe in Allah with my full heart....but I don't believe that?

Karim, while there is a lot wrong with the Infidel, there is a lot wrong with Islam too? It is not down to the infidel to sort out the house of Islam ...WE MUSLIMS need to do that...but first we must accept that there IS something wrong...and I am down that road currently...and I don't think it makes me any less muslim....but it does make me a RESPONSIBLE muslim.

I feel trapped by the blasphemy laws in Pakistan...I am muslim...but I cannot move. Ahmadis are in the Army (a couple of generals too) in commerce....why should we be singled out.

Also where are the cool muslim heads in this cartoon affair....all I see is people like yourself with a red mist in front of their eyes ....looking for retribution... I mean what's changed really? The Koran is still the same, we pray to Allah not Muhammed, I feel strongly about this ...but there are smarther ways to deal with this...let's sort out the freedom and empowerment bit first.

My freedom is curbed all the time as an Ahmadi, we muslims have to sort this out...and join the 21st centuary world. We have been left behind for years now, even the harijan and the deletes in India have passed us by... and this needs to be addressed peacefully with ice cool heads.

Like I said before, we need to compete equally with the infidel and then surpass him in commerce....Instead we are lazy...we tend to have a low work ethic and low self esteem....why are our childerns illiterate....WE Muslims have to fix that...forget about being victims all the time and lets not rely on the handouts of the infidel. There will come a time when these will stop anyway.

Please don't think of me as an unbeliever...I believe with my heart...but with responsibility.

Finally Karim, Let us pray to Allah (swt) for the correct guidance ...the muslim way to come into the 21st centuary....

and not hold hands with the infidel to take each other to the day of reckoning.

Salamaleikum
Sorry, I didnt know you are a Pakistani lady with the name Naseem. In Arabic that is ofcourse a male name, like for example Prince Naseem, the boxer. I dont understand you, what is it you want? Why cant you stop calling them infidels? You are playing into their hands. The Islamic name for Christians is People of the Book, not infidels. Its rude und demeaning to address anyone this way. I prefer to call them a bunch of brainwashed, scared out of their pants, uneducated and quite arrogant nimwits, desperate to shed away the remants of their trailer trash background, by spewing out words that are to big for them. It gives them an importance they dont have. Listen, I am not the one irresponsible. I dont condone terrorists, nor do I support the primitive rural tribal codes in Pakistan that those numbnuts call Islam. I dont have to support the terror in New York( that doesnt mean I dont understand why), nor kidnappings in Iraq. Why? Its not part of my religion. Now ask them to stop painting everything in black and white, or to stop those hideously disgusting calls for annihilation, war or a Muslim holocaust. Tell them to stop giving us deragatory name like shaver, pig,infidel,KKK;cancer and we have an agreement.

Karim, you have a severely flawed view of history for someone who is supposed to be "superior" as your Q'uran says. Germany declared war on the US. Japan made a sneak attack on us which justified our declaration of war. Japanese beheaded, shot, and mistreated prisoners of war and civilians and disregarded the Geneva convention. They too thought they were "superior". We nuked them to end the war. So what? The war was not "already won" until Japan signed the surrender papers. Prior to dropping the bombs they had declared their intention to fight to the last man, woman and child. I notice you didn't mention the German death camps like Auschwitz, Berkinau and Treblinka and the inhumane slaughter and torture that went on there. Why? Because Jews are "subhuman"? You also failed to mention the germ and biological warfare Japan used on the Chinese or what the Japanese did to Korea. The Americans did nothing like that. However Muslims gladly allied themselves to Hitler, ala Haj Amin al-Husseini. The US has gotten no oil from Iraq and has spent billions of dollars to give the Iraqi people their freedom. The West has also provided the bulk of aid to the victims of the Tsunami in Indonesia and the earthquakes in Pakistan. Since these are Muslim countries why haven't the oil rich nations of Islam come to the aid of the Umma instead of leting the Infidel show compassion? Is it because there is no compassion in the Q'uran, but there is in Christ? Why is every Muslim nation a third world country? Why has Islam not achieved the technical advancements in science and mathematics that have made the Infidel countries superior to Islamic countries? Why are Muslims from Iran, Saudi and Syria and other Muslim countries in Iraq killing Iraqi Muslims? The Q'uran commands the killing of nonbelievers and commends those who murder in the name of Allah, does it not? The Bible condemns those who do such things, even if they do them in the name of God. The Q'uran calls Jesus (Isa) a liar because He called God His "Father in heaven", but the Q'uran says Allah has no sons. True. "Allah" is a chunk of meteorite in Mecca that was worshipped long before Mohammed was born. Rocks have no sons. You are a poor joke to try pointing fingers at us. You even attack poor Naseem because you think she may be a man. At least give her the benefit of the doubt, apologize to her and treat her with some kindness and dignity.

I am sick of this. I am talking to a bunch of war crazed fanatics. The thing is, it impossible to talk with a fanatic. You bastard, you think simply saying things like "we nuked them" makes 300 000 people, perished in the most miserable way, come back to life? Ofcourse only the saddest objects in humanity believe that the Military Industrial complex spends trillions of dollars on war, because all those executives and leaders hearts bleed for the Iraqi people. I am sure Dick Cheney and his Haliburton crew cry themselves to sleep every night, thinking of the chemical weapons Saddam used on the Kurds in Hallabja, thinking about the American serial number on those weapons.
We are not talking about what the Japanese did. That is typical American. Clean your own backyard first.The Americans did nothing like that? Hmmm, except admittedly throwing two Atom Bombs. I would say Japan did nothing like that. Ofcourse the words Agent Orange or Gulf war syndrome dont rings a bell in you head. Watching to much CNN, hu? You talk about compassionae,yet you wipe away the death of thousandth of people like you shoo away a fly.Shame on you, you hypocrite. You have no compassionate. Stop pulling the good name of Jesus into the dirt with your filth.

P.s
I wasnt being rude to Naseem.
I was being rude to you

Karim, a litle friendly advice. You said "Listen, I am not the one irresponsible." I think you meant to say "I am not the one responsible", since "I am not irresponsible" is a double negatine and would mean that you are responsible.
You also say "...I dont condone terrorists, nor do I support the primitive rural tribal codes in Pakistan that those numbnuts call Islam. I dont have to support the terror in New York( that doesnt mean I dont understand why), nor kidnappings in Iraq. Why? Its not part of my religion."
I beg to differ. It is a large part of your religion. The Q'uran commands Muslims to murder nonbelievers, to strike fear and terror into them and to deceive and dissemble (taqiyyah and kitman) and to treat them as lesser beings (dhimmi and jizya). Islam has always been spread by war and terrrorism. If you aren't familiar with the verses in the Q'uran and the hadith which command this, I will be glad to show them to you. I also see that while I was typing my first message you got Naseem's name and gender straightened out. Good for you.

Karim for someone who started with "Salam", i.e., "Peace" and claims not to support the terrorists you have shown your true colors very quickly. FYI, my parents were married, so I am not a "bastard". You are a Muslim, so I expect you to be rude, dishonest and ignorant of civilized behavior. May I say you have surpassed my expectations. Your world view is poisoned by Al Jazeera and the other lying Muslim press and your own prejudices, so I understand your frustration at being from the third world. (Look up "cognitive dissonance".) You have delusions of grandeur and imagine yourself and your cult to be "superior". You are incapable of carrying on an intelligent conversation and making rational defense for your beliefs, so when you are confronted by the facts you immediately resort to anger and name calling, like a petulant child. You have just proven how inferior you, your "religion" and your "prophet" really are. Thank you.

Look, my friend. I have been to this a hundreth. There is NOT a single verse making at an obligation
for Muslims to kill non-Muslims. The only ones you quote have been qioted by fire and brimstone christian a thousandth times and yet they still remain what they are. They only refer to the war between the then war between Muslims and the Arab Polytheists. It says clear as water that if they stop fighting Muslims should also stop.

Fight in the cause of God those who fight you. But do not transgress limits, for God loveth not transgressors. Sura 2: 190

Sura 2: 193

And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail Justice and faith in God.But if they cease let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression

Thats sounds a lot better then the God of the Old Testament butchering every man, woman and child, doesnt it? You say there is something wrong with my culture, yet it is you who talks about love and
condones death and murder in the sentence.
I disagree with you. You are irresponsible, you should go out and demonstrate against the Iraq war.

I didnt call you a bastard because of my sake, but for you excusing murder and the honor of those innocents who died. You claim that makes culture inferior? Why is that? Why is that when I do something, that blackens the name of 1.2 billions people? It because you are simple. Second, if me calling you a bastard makes me inferior then I urge you to look around. I have been called a pig, cancer,
subhuman and that I should be killed. Going by your standard, how inferior does that make you?

Karim Khayal

Karim, I don't consider anyone who calls me a "bastard" to be a friend, so don't try to pull the wool over my eyes. I see you for what you really are and so does everyone who reads your words here. I asked several questions regarding Islam. You have failed to defend your faith. You know what that means in Islam. Have a nice day.

Karim-

On the Japanese, don't take our word for it.
Go to Chinese sources. Read about the rape of Nanking, for example.

"Over the six weeks of the massacre, in addition to the murder of about 300,000 civilians, the Japanese troops raped over 20,000 women, most of whom were murdered thereafter. In recognition of these horrifying acts, the massacre is also commonly referred to as 'the rape of Nanking.'

Women of all ages (including children as young as seven and elderly women in their seventies) were violated, many of them being gangraped or attacked on multiple occasions. Some women were held captive so that the could be repeatedly abused. Rapes were committed in broad daylight, in front of spouses, children, or other family members, and with appalling frequency. The soldiers' usual practice, officially condoned by high-ranking officials so as to "avoid difficulties," was to murder the women when they were finished with them. This was most often done by cutting off their breasts and/or disemboweling them with a bayonet to the abdomen. Senior officers were not only aware of these acts, but participated in them as well.

Particularly disturbing is that the Japanese perpetrators derived great pleasure from these heinous crimes, while their superiors condoned and even supported them. One outstandingly revolting account is of several soldiers who, after raping and killing a pregnant woman, presented her fetus on a bayonet to their commanding officer, who replied with laughter".

I watched a PBS special, where they interviewed a Japanese solider who had taken part in the Chinese invasion. This man, in his own words, took a group of Chinese women and their children, locked them into a house, and set it on fire. When asked what his reaction to their screams and prayers was, he shrugged and said "I felt nothing".

I also suggest you read about the Muslim invasion of India, from Islamic sources. There are quite a few. Estimates put the number of Hindu deaths at between 70-100 million. Pretty good for a "religion of peace", no?

For example:

In 1008 AD he captured Nagarkot (Kangra). The loot amounted to 70,000,000 dirhams in coins and 700,400 mans of gold and silver, besides plenty of precious stones and embroidered cloths. In 1011 AD he plundered Thanesar which was undefended, destroyed many temples, and broke a large number of idols. The chief idol, that of Chakraswamin, was taken to Ghazni and thrown into the public square for defilement under the feet of the faithful. According to Tarikh-i-Yamini of Utbi, Mahmud's secretary,

"The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously [at Thanesar] that the stream was discolored, notwithstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise he to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims."

Honor indeed.

Then dont. That was just a matter of talking.
Why do I need a friend who showers my culture with ridicule and abuse like a plantation master with a whip, only talking to me as an inferior uncivilized barbarian? Thats pretty much the friendship of the white ruler. Its the way you treat everyone who is not from your immediate ethnic and cultural circle, speak Christian(Jews nowadays being an exception) and white. No thank you.Thats not a great friendship lost. The reason I dont answer all of your charges is not that I cant, its just that they are to silly, superficial and racist to reason with. Just a lot of red herings you want me to catch. Go ahead and live in that beautiful tent you call your life, pretending
that all outside it just noise and dirt. Like all fiction this is bound to fall. I hate to say it, but in many ways the Terrorist attack on 11 September were a good kick in the butt for self glorious people like you. Go ahead pretending that the culture or ethnicity has even in the remotest sense anything do with you. I say that because you are today bombings the place of his origin, the Middle East and you dont give a damn because you consider them inferior.

May Allah guide us all in the future

"and not hold hands with the infidel to take each other to the day of reckoning".

If that's the case, Naseem, why do you come here to consort with the infidel?

http://www.kafirnation.com/cartoons.htm
I WONDER IT THEY WILL COME AFTER ME?

You dont know what you are talking about. I know that the Japanese commited unspeakable crimes. That was never the point.The thing is that YOU have to admitt that you are also capapble and have committed, or are committing such crimess. Second who is the mentioned persons ? That concerns Sultan Mahmoud Ghaznavi who
ranasked the city of Tanasser and who destroyed many temples. What you dont know is that former President Khatami of Iran apologized to the Prime Minister of India for this crime. That is how much we Muslims disregard "infidels". I suggest you do the same to the Viatnamese, Native Americans and Japanese whose blood is your holy "Christian" hands.It was nice talking to you all, but like the Quran says it pretty much like discussing something with a donkey carrying books.

Salam

"you dont give a damn because you consider them inferior".

It's racist to quote original Muslim sources? Uh huh.

Actually, Karim, you misunderstand the frustration here.

We know that the peoples of the Middle East have the ability to do much better then their current situation.

Instead, it looks like you are CHOOSING not only to shortchange your own, but to become a threat to all other cultures in the world. The caliphate doesn't allow for non-muslim rule, or a future outside of Islam, you know.

Our democratic governments didn't spring up overnight. They started in England with the signing of the Magna Carta, and has=ve taken a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to create. Not to mention the price of eternal vigilance, to keep our republic. We plan on defending what our ancestors fought so hard to gain.

" Why cant you stop calling them infidels?
Its rude und demeaning to address anyone this way. I prefer to call them a bunch of brainwashed, scared out of their pants, uneducated and quite arrogant nimwits, desperate to shed away the remants of their trailer trash background, by spewing out words that are to big for them. It gives them an importance they dont have."

Yeah Naseem, whazzamatter you? Being rude like that.LOL

Hello all,

I have a bit of bone to pick with you all. Karim was the 1st muslim that ever spoke to me on JW ....and you bloody drove him away...why give him a baptism of fire....what's wrong with you!!!

Now we will miss the cutting edge of his tongue and the shearing comments...albiet slightly biased.

Still I was a bit disappointed that Karim too was affected by the famous "red mist" of that muslim men seem to have around them. He started off well....but then the infidel here poisioned his maturing mind.

Still much of it is vitreol heard in Pakisan...a pity...come back Karim ...Islam is not perfect there is much to discuss and fix within Islam.

When you come back....ditch the red mist and install an ice cool mode....I think you have found that the infidel is not dumb...and now (here anyway), knows (at least) as much about Islam as you or I.

It's interesting to hear the discussion about the eye color of Jesus and the people of the middle east. While not the middle east, the Pakistan and Aghanistan region would normally be described as a dark skin, dark eye region and yet we know that is not always the case due to migration of people:

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/afghangirl/

Also, two thousand years have passed and global movement of people has not stopped. The slave raiding missions traveled up and down Europe and brought many blonds and redheads into the middle east and asia.

Look at the most famous actress in India. Though her skin is darker than a European, to someone from India I would think she would be described as light skinned. And light eyed.

The Romans conquered north into Britain and much of the middle east and surely left their mark on the population. Taking their European/germanic slaves with them. Along with the African slave trade which mixed the dark skin and eyes into the equation. Anywhere withing raiding distance of ships would have a chance of finding light eyes or hair. Spanish people were written in history as much lighter but after the islamic peoples came the people there are much darker eyed and hair color than the rest of Europe. As is southern Italy which had a massive infusion of slaves in Roman slave days.

Look at how much the majority of the people look in Australia now and then 500 years ago. It goes both ways. England used to be blondish and light eyes but in 500 years it will be dark skinned and dark eyes. Will historians not believe it once was light? If recorded history is lost or changed. Yes.

I have heard Helen of Troy and Cleopatra stories of blue eyes (nothing historically linked). Anyone completely different would stand out from the crowd and make them memorable.

He started off well....but then the infidel here poisioned his maturing mind.

Naseem, this is an INFIDEL blog, dedicated to exploring the problems of Islam. What the heck did you expect?

Why not start a blog for reform minded Muslims?

"If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen".

Salam
Dont worry Naseem. I am not finished here

Naseem:

This is my first posting to JW. After reading the whole thread, I must put a comment in about the postings by Karim. As this thread progressed, it was becoming more apparent that it was going to turn into a flaming war. Karim simply got a number of posters offended and there started the flaming war. When a poster post offensive stuff, the offended posters have no choice but to respond back, thus the flame war. This is not suprising since there is a growing undercurrent of anger towards the Muslim world because of the hatred and the violence waged against the West. This is what is called an angry backlash. Online, the online poster that gets offensive there is a term for the poster : troll.

Granny:

Since you know Christian scripture, and you say that there is no description of Jesus, I have a question. Is the nearest description to what Jesus looked like is fourn in Revelation Chapter 1: 13-15 ?

Your answer would be most helpful Thank-you.

Hello bigcatgirl13106,

My, what a wonderful handle...and welcome to JW.
So you read the whole thread eh....good on you....and where's Ironman Hondo when the sweetest girl comes along.

Bigcat, I kinda agree with your analysis and so for some of the time stayed out of the debate as it was going nowhere(that and the time I spent away nursing my hubby, who got caught in the earthquake a while back).

Yes today, Karim came up against some seasoned infidel debaters, and against the backdrop of Muhammed (pbuh) in cartoon caricature proved rather hot.

Karim is yet full of pride for Islam (after all that is what he was born into) and obviously stands up to anybody who speaks against it.

I would respectfully disagree with your troll term though...it's been a tough day....I mean your prophet has been insulted in a most grotesque manner...would you expect any less....and I'm sure that he will speak for himself later.

On a personal note I think Karim is an innocent debater and needs to learn about all aspect of Islam....all is not well there...but the biggest hurdle is moving the smoke away to see the fire ...and not make more smoke.

We have way too many people in Islam who are angry ....they are no good to Islam...we need people who can think and stay calm under pressure...that is why I am hoping that Karim will hang around ....and make a positive contribution to the forum....learn about some of the failings of Islam, see what is really going on and have a change of attitude.

Ofcourse he was unfairly name called today...and that you have to learn to cope with....I adjusted after the 1st 100 times. I am more interested in the real issues...and what will happen when Islam is put under (unnecessary) pressure.

There is little point in hating for the sake of hating or because someone else tells you to.

The important point is what do YOU think...given the information infront of you....both from Islamic sources and Infidel sources....who is telling the truth...do both sources marry up...does it matter?....ofcourse it bloody does ...the future of the world and who rules it is at stake.

And Muslims best wise up fast if they want to rule it!!

Hi Naseem. didn't know that you missed me. I'm touched.
Big Cat Girl, if you think Karim is somethin', wait till you get a load of me. (And get your mind out of the gutter. I'm not thinking that way.) It's good to have you on board. You are in for an experience.
And now Karim,....my friends have you pegged. I need not respond to you my Islamofeces. So I won't. My fellow Freedom Lovers have got you in check.
Nuts to Islam, Nuts to the pedophile prophet Muhammad, and Nuts to Allah!!!"
This is not hate speak. This is "Freedom of Expression!"
God Bless America and the Free World!!!

Muslim rage continues against Denmark TVNZ, New Zealand - 1 hour ago

Muslim Rage The news article title says it all.

Not just a tiny (tm) minority of "extremists."

bigcatgirl13106 you ask about the description of Christ as seen by John in his vision and described in the Revelation of John.

First I must say that I know scripture no more and no better than any other Christian who reads the Bible and attends church. I don’t know your circumstances but you could do worse than ask your local vicar, minister or priest.

This is my personal opinion on the verse you mention; there are other people who post here who will also have valuable opinions. In old age John had a vision, or series of visions in a cave on the Island of Patmos which he described in the book called Revelation in which he sent messages to the churches.

You refer to Revelation Chapter 1: 13-15 which says
I turned to see whose voice it was that spoke to me; and when I turned I saw seven standing lamps of gold, and among the lamps one like a son of man, robed down to his feet, with a golden girdle round his breast. The hair of his head was white as snow-white wool, and his eyes flamed like fire; his feet gleamed like burnished brass refined in a furnace and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and his face shone like the sun in full strength.

I looked up what the respected Bible commentator Matthew Henry said about this passage. He speaks of the impression this appearance of Christ made on John, “who was overpowered with the greatness of the lustre and glory in which Christ appeared, though he had been so familiar with him before.”

Revelation is a book where I believe that allegory and metaphor are used to great effect. That the description John gives is subjective, how Christ appeared to him at that moment, in glory. That, for example the sword in his mouth is a metaphor for the effect His word has on the world. That he did not literally walk through Galilee with such a physical sword, nor wearing a gold girdle, nor that he had brass feet. Later in the book the city of Jerusalem is described as a bride coming to meet her bridegroom and Christ describes himself as the bright star of dawn. 12:16/17

So I don’t personally think that this is a description of the physical form of Jesus when he lived on earth, but is an impression of his presence in Heaven, revealed to John, in the way John was meant to see Him at that time.

Other people who have seen visions of Christ over the centuries describe him differently, but the important thing is that they all knew who he was. It is an interesting point you raise and one it has done me good to consider. Thank you.

Naseema, girlfriend--

Try to ignore all the fundamentalist Christians who often infect this board, and which are the consternation of the many Jews, atheists, animists and agnostics who inahbit our wonderful, incomparable United States of America.

From the soul-searching dispatches you've sent, it seems to me that you are a Muslima who has admitted that perhaps she has lost her faith, or is beginning to ask serious questions concerning dogma, but who still believes in that "Big Guy in the Sky."

I think you are truly a Dei-ist at heart, which puts you in the same camp as Thomas Jefferson.....not a man without fault, by any means, but probably the most influential and inspirational American who ever lived.

Good luck on your journey.

Naseema, girlfriend.

Try to ignore all the fundamentalist Jews, atheists, animists and agnostics who often infect this board, and which are the consternation of the many Christians who inhabit our wonderful, incomparable United States of America.

Treehugger--

Not everyone in the U.S.A. embraces the philosophy of Paul of Tarsus. To take my words and use them when so many here on JW are much more eloquent, is cheap and sad.

(And I hope you take your moniker to heart. I, too, am a "treehugger," although Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell have assured us that they think environmental awareness is nonsense.)

Kafira,

It's a gentle jibe, dearie. Meant to induce thought....or not, depending on the recipient.

One actually can be a Christian, a rational human being, and a "treehugger" all at the same time.

Mind boggling, ain't it? :)

“how about throwing an Atom Bomb on two cities and killing 300 000 Human beings in a war that was already won? karim83”

Why don’t you read your history Karim – the Jap’s were far from defeated – just like the Pom’s when they held out in 1941, were they defeated? Or being the good little Muslim would you have preferred to see the “Great Satan” bleed herself white invading the Mountainous Island nation of Japan????

“I prefer to call them a bunch of brainwashed, scared out of their pants, uneducated and quite arrogant nimwits, desperate to shed away the remants of their trailer trash background, by spewing out words that are to big for them. It gives them an importance they dont have.”

I see you follow in the footsteps of your hate filled “profit”. Maybe you need a 9 year old girl to make you feel better – just like Mohammed hey?>?

“Thats sounds a lot better then the God of the Old Testament butchering every man, woman and child, doesnt it?”

Go read up on the whole situation in the OT. It also describes the men of these tribes as giants. Something is amiss here in these OT passages. Note also it gives specific names, times and places to the Jews. It names Kings and Leaders of people. Show where that happens in the Koran Karim. Fact is it doesn’t – which is why we see Muslims justifying Jihad today with those passages. You know it’s typical of a Muslim o go back 1000’s of years to find dirt on a Christian. I can go to well……Bali , 9/11, Slavery in the Sudan, Slavery in Saudi Arabia as little as 3 decades ago etc etc etc. Go throw some stones at your little black rock Karim. At least today Christians let the God of the OT do his own killing – Muslims seem to think they have to do Allah’s.

Profitsbeard you owe very moslim in the world than I than sorry speech. The founder of Islam wasnot ever a pediphedi, or marry than 5 or 6 year old girl. The one scholar who wrote that was about 90 year old and possible senile(his thinking brain was done) I have a great grandmother who was senile an we have to put her in a state mental hospile as we where unable to watch her 24 hours aday 7 days aweek. Other religious of the time said donot take as accuratted any statement from that scholar because of his mental decline. No other scholar said he married than 5 or 6 year old girl. His marriage to his fravite wife was attend by tridal chief from all over the Arabian landmass, many where idoel workhipper who would have use the fact that he married than 5 or 6 year old girl to attack and Islam. Since those attack where never make that his fravor wife was of suitable marraige age. In America for awhile some state allow marriage at age 13 or 14 for girl. The editor of the Danish newpaper finelly said he sorry that his newpaper offend moslim worldwide for his carttoons that where illegal carry by his newpaper. Mos;im in America where going along with the no buying of Danish good, these action are legal as many court rule people have the right to not buy anything from people who offend then and they culture. Some Christian and Jew where I live where also planning to not buy Danish goods for offending than Propet of God.

Heavens above, these apologists for the poor behavour of their prophet can't (won't) even remember evidence to the contrary posted within the same thread the previous day.

I repeat, we have had discussion on here before with a Muslim named Shukri who was quite insistent that I should consult his source http://www.muslim-answers.org/aishah.htm where, he assured me, I would see the truth about Aisha's marriage, and would thus come to understand how Mohammed's sexual intercourse with a child of barely 9 years old was a good thing. A worthy act, he assured me, that brought blessings to all involved for ever more.

Truly the prophet Jeremiah was right,
"You foolish and senseless people, you have eyes and see nothing, ears and hear nothing."

Nom I read my History and you read yours. Thats exactly the problem.What you read is pure,cheap and apologetic propaganda. Invade the mountainous Island of Japan? I never heard anything so dumb before. The battle took place in scattered Islands in the South Pacific, not Japan. Its true that Japanese soldiers were going by the traditional code of their Bushido. That meant fighting for the Teno to the last man. Yet they were starving, they even started eating corpses. The victory was clear. So why punish Japanese civilians? Remind when Osama gets his first A Bomb. He is going to say exzactly what you did, "well they werent giving up, I couldnt have invaded the mountanious
Island of North America."
So you snotty arrogant murderer pretending to be a Saint, stop opening your mouth to wide. There is to much crap leaking out. And by the way I know you are ignorant( you are American, its okay) but stope making fun of the Arabic term for God, Allah. It is pointless. Arab Christians have used is before Islam, it the Arabized form of the Hebrew Ela and the Assyrian form of Alaha. You know Assyrian, meaning Aramaic, meaning the language of Jesus?

Karim Khayal

Oh, wait now she is going to attack me because the Koran doesnt mention names. Hmmm, well that makes me wonder. Let us just check the Bible if it so Historically accurate. Giants? I am sorry I didnt see that. Maybe you could point it out for me. Well, the conquering of Jericho was supposed to have happened around 1200 B.C; at a time of major change in the Medditerranenan and Aegean cultures. The Mycenean culture fell, the Canaanitic civillization collapsed and Egypt lost her outposts in the Middle East. Maybe Jericho was also attacked by a group of wandering Semites, or maybe the mysterious Sea People? In case the Bible is right then the whole story of the Israelites walking around the walls of Jericho and blowing three times into a horn ,making the walls collapse must be true. The only problem is, Jericho never ever had any walls. Look it up.So much for details. Your excuse for the people being Giants is just lame. It is the typical bloodthirsty answer one expects from the likes of you. Next time I will see a man with Giant syndrome I will just kill him.

Karim Khayal

By the way, arent you going to congratulate me? I see they started removing Illegal Settlements in the Westbank. Thats a step for peace. No more blood thirsty fanatical settlers shooting children on the way to school, with protection from their thuggish Army.And if all goes good I hope to say no more henious suicide bombings.

Karim Khayal

Another matter, this ridiculing of the Muslim Jesus in the ridiculous book" The myth of Islamic tolerance", presenting nothing else but desperate propaganda pleas as why to not critizice the outrageous human right violations of Israel and why "when we kill it is good,while their killing is bad".
Jesus Name was not Yoshua, it was never Yoshua. He very likely didnt even speak Hebrew. His Aramaic Name was Eesho. Thats what his followers called him and that is what he called himself. So stop drinking all
Anti Islamic hate writing like you would drink Orange Juice and become a little critical of yourself and your culture, before you tell others to do so.

Karim Khayal

Karim

There needs to be a correction. The Hebrew name of Jesus is Yeshua. What you speak of, the Aramaic, was the "street " language at the time of Jesus. Hebrew was and is to this day, used as the language of worship. Yeshua or Yoshua, which in English would be called Joshua is the proper Hebrew name to call Jesus. Both Hebrew and Aramaic are related languages, but thankfully today, Hebrew is the language of Isreal.

Simply, I have to not agree with you.

Granny :

I just want to post to you to say thank-you for helping me with that question. Yes, it is true that I am a church going Christian and I want to know more about the Bible.

Bigcatgirl
It was a pleasure. And thank you for clarifying Jesus name, and its origins in Joshua.

No my friend you are wrong. Aramaic was not the street language, it was lingua france of the Middle East. In the Middle Ages worship was also in Latin, that excluded most of the people understanding.
It had taken over Hebrew just like Arabic at the Muslim conquest took over Aramic. Yet there are still some Syrians and Iraqies speaking Aramaic today.
Well, if you dont believe me regarding Jesus Aramaic name ask any Iraqie Assyrian or Aramaic speaking Syrian what they call him.

Karim Khayal

Karim :

I have done some internet research and as a matter of fact; it backs me up. You can look it up in this reference from a church sermon. It does say that Hebrew did become by the time of Jesus, became the language of worship only. Aramaic was used, with Latin and koine Greek the language of everyday business. As far as the Iraqi and Syrian Christians is concern, they are the only ones who are speaking Aramaic while Hebrew thankfully has made a bigtime comeback with the birth of Modern Isreal. What Iraqi and Syrian Christians call him is what they call him. I go with the Hebrew name because it honors the land that he was born, the Holy Land. Here is the URL link that I did my research :

http://www.calvaryepiscopal.org/serm02-01-04.html

I stand by my position.

Well, we are basically saying the same thing. Hebrew was the language of worship, practically known by the Priest caste the Sadducees only, just like Greek. Many cultural aspects of Hellenism were added into the general worship. The general population, like Jesus( pbuh) very likely spoke the common dialect, in Eeshos case the Gallilean dialect, of Aramaic. The possibility that Jesus, like Mohammad, was uneducated and illiterate is very high. So the chance of him even speaking Hebrew, never mind Greek, are very small. But coming back to it Jesus was born into time of turmoil and his culture and his sorroudings were
a Semitic Jewish culture. Judaism, like Islam, is not by itself a pacifist religion. The all gentle Jesus is pretty much Hellenistic fiction. Even the Bible doesnt wholly support that.Lets not forget how he threw out the money changers from the Temple, or his provocation when riding into Jerusalem( which sealed his fate). Or how he addressed the Cannanite woman begging him to heal her child," do not throw bread to the dogs and pearls to the swine." Thats very revealing of his Jewishness.

Karim Khayal

By the way, Jesus was Muslim. It comes from Islam, meaning "submission to God in Peace". In that case he was a Muslim.Only in that case he is talked about as a Muslim. It doesnt mean that he had to go to Mecca.
Second there are ceartainly many more aspects of culture that Muslims share with Jesus. His circumcision, his not eating swine, the traditional dress, typical for Semitic people, the strict monotheism and adherence to the law, the Middle Eastern ethnicity, and the great similarity in Language.

Karim Khayal

The woman came and fell at his feet and cried "Help me Sir" To this Jesus replied "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs"
"True Sir" she answered; "and yet the dogs eat the scraps that fall from their masters table" Hearing this Jesus replied "Woman, what faith you have! Be it as you wish!" And from that moment her daughter was restored to health.
Matthew 15:26
From that time onward the Lord gave his message to both Jews and Gentiles. Note he commended her faith and healed the child.

I think the verse you are thinking of is earlier in Matthew Chap7:6
Jesus is talking about giving. He said "Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls to the pigs: they will only trample on them and turn and tear you to pieces." ....then "How much more will your heavenly Father give good things to those who ask him"
Pearls are no use to pigs, to a pig a good thing would be piggy nuts or acorns. To another creature something else would be wholesome to eat.

As far as his education is concerned Jews have always placed a high value on literacy and education. All men over 13 would be expected to read aloud in the synagogues. Joseph was a carpenter, a skilled trade. His mother Mary was from a priestly family. At the age of 12 he debated the teachers in the temple "they found him in the temple surrounded by the teachers, listening to them and putting questions; and all who heard him were amazed at his intelligence and the answers he gave.... As Jesus grew up he advanced in wisdom and in favour with God and men." Luke Chap 2.
Later in Luke 4:16 he did read aloud in the synagogue in Nazareth from the scroll of the prophet Isaiah. He also preached in the synagogue at Capernaum.
So unlike Mohammed he was literate and learned. He conversed with Romans, including centurions and the Governor, senior priests and people from other countries.

Or am I casting my pearls before swine here?

I disagree with you. The traditional Jewish focus is more on Talmudic intepretation and traditional believe then education. Quite to the contrary, the Haredim Jews in Israel disregard all secual education
like Mathematics, Biology, Physics, even Hebrew poetry is not taught. The girls barely get any education besides learning how to be good obedient wives. Now imagine what the literacy rate in a Middle Eastern country 2000 years ago would be, when the rate of illiteracy at the beginnig of the century for Palestinians was about 90 percent? The Arabs of Mohammdads time were masters in poetry, that does not mean in any way that the literacy rate was high. Muhammad was also very likely a good orator, like Jesus, and still he was illiterate. And how does being a carpenter make for an education? A carpenter in that time was not the carpenter of today, but more like a man for fixing everything. It was a job of the simple people. Even Nazareth was held in low regard.
And all those stories of Jesus talking to priests, I wouldnt take them so seriously.

Karim Khayal

And all those stories of Jesus talking to priests, I wouldnt take them so seriously
No luv, best not, you might find yourself apostateing if you studied our Saviour too closely, and then you would be in trouble.

Ofourse Granny, thats exactly why I am better educated on him then you are. Try saying something
non offensive for a change. It might do you good.

Of course.
That's
than.

And please dont forget that I hold Eesho Mashekha, or Eesa al Maseeh(pbuh) in just as high regards as you do.

Salam

Karim-

In your laundry list above in which you try to draw comparisons between Jesus and Muslims, you forgot the episode where Jesus confronts a group of men about to stone a woman to death, and stops the proceeding.

Whoops!! That one didn't make it into the Quran, did it?

This laundry list you talk about is more intelligent and informend then anything you will ever come up in three lifetimes. Why cant you a conversation without insulting me? I am a human being presenting my opinions. Take it or leave. First, of all stoning is not part of the Kuranic jurisprudence( even though it has been practiced and still is in a few countries).
You do not have one utterance by Jesus that he is againt the Jewish law, or against stoning. Jesus said and again that he did not come to cancel the Law. He was a practicing Jews, who came to teach his contempories that Love and righteousness was just as important.

On a another note, you didnt mention that this story of the woman caught in adultry is disregarded by many scholars as a latter addition.

Salam

I meant take it or leave it.

Salam

Karim, Granny has very important points. The Jewish people then as now placed a very high value on education. This is not just only for the importance of being able to read the torah and to do the prayers, but to learn a trade. Jesus was not only learned but also he taught with authority. The apostle Paul was also very learned. The early Christian monesteries; and in a special way, the Irish communities are to be credited with saving not only Western civilization, but also its cultural treasures, of the the Greeks and Romans. Overall, what is being presented here is not offensive, just simply information that you may have overlook. It helps the discussion.

Karim - give me a break!! How many Allied servicemen died when invading the Japanese Island of Okinwawa (excuse sp) BEFORE they dropped the bomb????

Hiroshima was a military target - yes civilians worked there. Lets not forget that the Japanese were also supplying the Nazi war machine with gold to keep them going - but hey - thats OK because the Axis forces were killing 6 million Jews. YOu are a typical Muslim.

How many US servicemen lost their lives when the battleship Yamanoto (sp) was lost??? Do you even know how many planes it cost them? ANS It was in the hundreds! BUt again - I reiterate my point - you think it's OK for the USA to bleed herself white.

I supppose you also think it's OK for the USA to invade Japan conventionally - even though just as many - if not MORE civilians would have died (look at Germany you ignorarmus)

Besides - Russia was massing on the Japanese /Russian borders. I suppose you would enjoy seeing Japan end up like Korea. Again Karim you show your ignorance of WW2 history. If the Japanese hung on - the USA AND the USSR would have invaded. Japan would have been divided.

Giants in the Bible - Go read it for yourself. What do you think Goliath was? Ever wondered why EVERY culture on earth (almost) has ledgends of Giants? Nope I didn't think so -

Oh and YHWH isn't like Allah - YHWH doesn't need a human to do his bidding today. The war was won on the cross. Something you obviously refuse to understand.

Come off it, Karim. Jesus challenged Jewish law all the time : "The Sabbath was made for man, man was not made for the Sabbath," his condemnation of established divorce practices, etc., etc. And as far as your accusation of insulting people goes, you really don't know enough about me to accurately make a prediction what I'm capable or incapable of doing in three lifetimes.

There is a difference between conserving the Jewish learning of the Priests and the common believes of the simple people. Palestine or Judea was a simple backward Middle Eastern peasant society. So even if you are right regarding the Jewish valuing education, although the highly educated Jews are secular, it would have no effect on the society of Jesus and the hard live he and his contempories led. There was likely more an emphasis on oral tradition Semitic, then the written word. It is funny that you mention the Monasteries saving ancient Greek knowledge.
Historically that is credited to the Muslims. They more then others translated Aristotle,Plato and Galen, even improving them. It is historically recorded that Muslims would hold high official hostages from a battle and demand books as a ransom.

Salam

Let me correct you. Peal Harbor was a military target, therefore in your reasoning a justified target. How many American Service men, or how many Japanese I might ask died? I am sure that wasnt 300 000.Is it justified to bomb Japan because they were Allied with Nazi Germany? Well, how many times did the United States ally itself with a dictator or a fashist goverment? And yes, the people in the Twin Towers, especially in the Pentagon, were also helping that big and unjust Empire we call the United States? Where the Attacks justefied? How did you bombing Hiroshiman and Nagassaki stop the mythical Russian invasion? And about Goliath, he wasnt a Canaanitem , he was a Phillistine, European people from the Ageas.

Salam

Hm. Goliath wasn't the only philistine! There's a certain poster here who knows very little about WWII.

I didnt say he didnt challenge Jewish, he wanted to curb the hypocrisy of his people regarding its observation. I am asking where he wanted to abolish it?

Bigcatgirl
I have been having a look through that website you refered to, and it's a real find. Thank you.

You Karim I am not surprised that you think the Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor was OK as it was a military target.

Lets see now...

While the Jap's were making over tones of "Peace" to the Yanks, their warships were on route to Pearl Harbor. The US in it's naivity/trusting nature believed the Jap's.

This is similar to the Islamic version of a "Hunda". No wonder you approve!

How many German civilians died in the conventional bombing of Dresden? Or when the Dambusters did their raid??? Dresden I believe was up around the 30,000 mark - in one night. YOu don't need an A-Bomb to wipe out a city. Normal bombs can do it (albeit with more risk to your serviceman).

Karim - in case you hadn't noticed - Japan is an Island. Ever wondered why China has not yet taken Taiwan? Ever wonder why Hitler did not invade England? Islands in the mordern age are bloody targets to overtake with an army (better off doing it the evolutionary Muslim way - immigration, money/corruption and over breeding). In 1945 Japan was exactly the same.

As for the "mythical Russians" no offense, but you are really showing your ignorance of WW2. How do you think the Russians "scored" the cresent shape/group of Islands to the north of the main Japanese Islands (that were Japanese pre 1945)?? Do you think the Japanese and the USA just handed them over to their ally/enemy the Russians??? Read your history Karim - maybe you haven't as the Muslim revisionists haven't got to that bit of WW2 yet.

"And about Goliath, he wasnt a Canaanitem , he was a Phillistine, European people from the Ageas".

And your point is??? God sent the flood not so much because of people's sin (the sin is just as great today)- but because of how CORRUPTED they were. It says Noah's line WAS PURE. Pure from WHAT??? Lines were not even yet defind in the Jewish tradion.

It also says the sons of god saw that the daughters of men were fair - and they took whom they pleased as wives. There off spring were "mighty men". Take it literally - and it explains a lot those "horrible" verses in the Bible. Sounds a bit like the Greek ledgends does it not? Even in some European theartes of acient battle there are tales of giant Vikings holding off the English. All these cultures have one thing in common where these "giants" were - worship of Pagan dieties. Some monuments around the world (like the hard ones to explain like the pyramids in Egypt, Sth America, Stone Henge, the Giant Heads of Rock in the Pacific, etc) around some of these buildings/monuments are some ledgends of giants. Even the US Indians have ledgends of giants who had 6 fingers, hence when they say "Hi" they would raise their hand to show that they have 5 fingers and are "normal". But again Karim - you have to go back to the very specific OT where certain people - BY NAME were commanded to go and attack SPECIFIC people, mentioned BY NAME around 3000 years ago. SHOW ME IN THE KORAN THE SAME SPECIFIC VERSES WHERE THE KORAN SAYS - "KILL THE INFIDEL WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM". Show me where in the Koran that it says "go to this town and ....". I won't hold my breath because it doesn't!

Just google giants of the Bible or World Karim. There is a heap of good (and "if-y") info on it.

Also karim - look up the estimates of the Allied command on what the casualty rate would have been if they invaded Japan instead of using the bomb. It's easy for cowards to sit on the sideline and say the Yanks were wrong for using the A Bomb. But then again, people like this weren't the ones in the front lines.

In a war of aggression forced upon them by the Japanese - The Yanks had every right to do what they did to save their own. In doing so they also saved the Japanese society from Russia (Japan would have ended up like Germany). Arm chair generals like you find it easy to condem. It would be different if it were you in the front lines, in a war you did not start. The majority of soldiers in WW2 were civilians in uniform. The US government HAD A DUTY TO PROTECT THEM - RATHER THAN PROTECT THE ENEMY CIVILIANS.

"And about Goliath, he wasnt a Canaanitem , he was a Phillistine"

I never specified what tribe he came from???

Oh and Karim - look at your geography - Russia is just across the sea from Japan. The Russians also fought a war with the Jap's inbetween WW1 and WW2. The "mythical" Russians as you put are next door to the Japanese. The only reason the Jap's left the Russians alone for 90% of the War was that they didn't want to stir the great Russian bear into action. Russia was OK with this has they had their hands full with the Nazi war machine.

By 1945 however, things were VERY different. The Nazi's were no more, Russia controled half of Europe, and was sending her forces over to the West to fight Japan to help her "Allies".

The Yanks were fully aware of the consequences of this help from their "ally".

Oh by the way - I'm not a Yank - LOL

When one considers the billions who have died at the hands of your warrior code - Islam - your attempts at moral equivalence is pathetic.

The Russians and Japanese also fought in 1904/5.

The US government HAD A DUTY TO PROTECT THEM - RATHER THAN PROTECT THE ENEMY CIVILIANS

Now if this isnt ecxactly what you call "Jihadist" I dont know what. So your alliance is to your own "clan" rather then to justice? Since when does being attacked justify every act of war? If you are American that it is. The Geneva conventions doesnt concern you( as is obvious in Iraq). Talk about an American "Jihad". I asked you to show me the Historical proof that devastated Russia was about to open a new front on Japan, and how in your opinion the dreadul bombing stopped that.You didnt. All you can present me with is the pathetic self glorious explanation that you wanted to save a few more thousandth of your troops and that justfies grand scale murder. Notice that during the cold war and times of the Soviet Union every
American aggression was justefied by the threat of communism.Now, I want to tell you the real reason why American bombed Japan.It was a demonstration of a new superpower having emerged and of the power of the Atom Bomb, something never witnessed before. Thats it. I will never understand you Christians. The hypocricy among many of you is mind blowing. Such a disregard for life when it comes to the "other".

P.S
They are not Japs,
but Japanese

Just a comment, Phillistines are not a tribe, but natives from Crete who for a time settled in Palestine and got into conflict with the native Israelites. The butchered people of Jericho were natives to the Land.

Give it a rest, Karim. 3rdtimelucky's not making anything up or fabricating any facts.

Yes, the Soviets were massed to the west of Japan in late July of 1945; perhaps Roosevelt had secured some sort of agreement from Stalin at Yalta a few months earlier to join the war against Japan if there was no surrender by August. Historians are still out on this one. By the time the decision to drop the bomb was made, Roosevelt was dead, however, and Truman was faced with some tough choices. His smartest choice was to not trust Stalin any farther than he could throw him, so yes, perhaps the bomb was dropped as a message to the Soviets to not try anything else in Europe now that the European war was over.

Curiously enough, the persistent argument of the neccessity of saving American lives may have been a hollow one. A mainland invasion of Japan in August probably would not have happened. A likely scenario would have been more aerial (conventional) bombing, which would have quickly separated the populous south from the agricultural north, which is where the food came from. Simply put, if the A-bomb (and perhaps news of the Soviets advancing quickly) had not brought about a surrender, millions of Japanese would have eventually starved to death.

"War is hell." (General Sherman)

someone is committing jihad on websites..

i know a few friends that have had their sites hacked lately and replaced with quotes from the quran on their main page

http://stopjihad.blogspot.com

Karim - read and weap you Mohamidian

Nevertheless the Japanese prospect of transferring their troops to fight the Americans was in vain and they only committed the Guandong Army from Manchuria in their "Sho plan", which later facilitated the Soviet advancement after the Soviet war declaration on August 8, 1945.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Japanese_War_(1937-1945)

Operation August Storm was the codename for the Soviet invasion of Manchukuo, Mengjiang, Korea, the southern portion of Sakhalin, the Kuril Islands, and Hokkaido. This was the initial action of the Soviet Union against the Empire of Japan. At the Yalta Conference, it had agreed to allied pleas to break the neutrality pact with Japan and enter the Second World War's Pacific theatre, but not until three months of the end of the war in Europe.
The invasion began on August 8, 1945, precisely three months after the German surrender on May 8. Notably, it began between the droppings of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima (August 6) and Nagasaki (August 9).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_August_Storm

Why Truman Bombed Hiroshima

By Bruce Lee
excerpts from the Wall Street Journal
Jump links
• The men read the Magic Summary
• Japan was to be defended by 30 million men
• Estimated US casualty
• Japan's secret negotiation with Russia
• Potsdam Declaration
• Japan declared to ignore Potsdam Declaration
• Japan negotiated with Russia to carve up Asia
• Two bombs dropped, Japan surrendered
• Japanese government propaganda
• The bombs saved millions of Japanese
....
The Magic summaries and the Ultra intercepts of German communications) were one of the key reasons that the Allies were able to foil the Axis plans of world domination. Only six Americans were authorized to read these intercepts. Of these six men, only one was elected. That was President Franklin D. Roosevelt, and he did not see, nor did he read, everything. The other policy-making recipients of Magic were: Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson, Secretary of State Cordell Hull, Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox, the chief of naval operations (the last being Adm. E.J. King) and Gen. George Marshall, the Army chief of staff. The most important of these decision makers was Gen. Marshall.
...
Marshall also knew prior to the February 1945 Yalta Conference that Russia would break its nonaggression pact with Japan and attack Manchuria about 90 days after the surrender of Germany (V-E Day). The Magic Summaries documented the shift of Soviet troops by rail from Europe to the Far East for this purpose. Because of a major intelligence failure, Marshall also believed that the Japanese had maintained their troop strength In Manchuria and were capable to resisting a Soviet Attack. But Tokyo had secretly brought back many of its troops from Manchuria to defend the home islands of Japan from an American invasion, leaving Manchuria and Korea easy prey for the Russians.
Marshall also knew from the Magic decrypts that the Japanese home islands were to be defended from invasion and occupation by 2.3 million troops, another four million Army and Navy employees and a newly created armed militia numbering 25 million. These defenders were sworn to fight to the death, which so many Japanese troops had done in battles throughout the Pacific.
To effectively invade and occupy Japan, American strategists foresaw two invasions, scheduled for November 1945 and March 1946. The first invasion, on the island of Kyushu. would employ some 770,000 American troops. The follow-up invasion on the plains of Tokyo, leading to the forced occupation of Japan, called for two million American troops.
This brings us to the heart of the Enola Gay argument made by revisionist historians who claim
(1) that President Truman either invented after the fact high invasion casualty estimates to provide moral and political justification for the use of atomic weapons; or
(2) that Truman was never told about potentially high invasion casualties; or
(3) that archival documentation for pre-invasion casualty estimates does not exist; or
(4) that the pre-invasion estimates were minuscule.
But according to documents I have uncovered, a conference to discuss pre-invasion casualties was held at the White House on June 18, 1945, between President Truman and the Joint Chiefs of Staff. From the Pacific, Gen. Douglas MacArthur submitted rather optimistic casualty estimates. This caused Adm. William D. Leahy, Truman's military advisor, to take charge of the session. Based on the experience at Iwo Jima and Okinawa, Leahy predicted that in an invasion of Japan, 30% to 35% of U.S. soldiers would be killed or wounded during the first 30 days. Truman obviously understood what Leahy said. The president remarked that the invasion would create another Okinawa from one end of Japan to the other. The Joint Chiefs of Staff agreed.
Suddenly, and only after being advised about the buildup of Japanese forces and fortifications by Magic intelligence, MacArthur medical staff revised its pre-invasion needs for hospital beds upwards by 300%. MacArthur's chief surgeon, Brig. Gen. Guy Denit, estimated that a 120-day campaign to invade and occupy only the island of Kyushu would result in 395,000 casualties.
Marshall then learned from the Magic Summaries, just before the Potsdam Conference convened on July 17, 1945, about behind-the-scenes negotiations between Japan and the Soviet Union. From June 3-14, 1945, Koki Hirota, a Japanese envoy with Emperor Hirohito's blessing, had met with the Russian ambassador to Tokyo to propose a new relationship between the two countries. Japan proposed to carve up Asia with the USSR . According to the Magic Diplomatic Summaries of July 3, 1945, Hirota told the Russian ambassador: "Japan will increase her naval strength in the future, and that, together with the Russian Army, would make a force unequaled in the world...." The Magic Summaries further revealed that throughout June and July 1945, Japan's militarist leaders were adamantly determined that they would never surrender unconditionally to the British and the Americans.
On July 4, 1945, the British agree to the use of the atomic bomb against Japan. On July 16, during the Potsdam Conference, the first A-bomb was successfully tested. A way had been found to end the war quickly and decisively. This was the situation on July 26 when the U.S., Britain and China issued the Potsdam Declaration to Japan to surrender unconditionally, "The alternative," said the declaration, "is complete and utter destruction."
On July 25, Japanese Premier Kantaro Suzuki announced to the Japanese press that the Potsdnm declaration was to be Ignored." Meanwhile, the Magic Summaries revealed that Tokyo was demanding that Moscow accept a special envoy from Emperor Hirohito, presumably to cement the deal offering to divide Asia between Japan and Russia while Moscow brokered a Japanese surrender with the U.S. and Britain that would be acceptable to Tokyo.
This is what the Americans President Truman, Secretary of War Stimson and Gen. Marshall knew the day before the first atom bomb fell on Japan. Confronted by an enemy leadership that was self-deluded, neither prepared to surrender nor to negotiate seriously, the Americans decided that the only way to end the war quickly would be to use overwhelming force: nuclear weapons.
Two bombs were dropped. The Russians invaded Manchuria. On August 10, Emperor Hirohito overruled his militarist advisors and accepted the Potsdam declaration. Japan surrendered.
Propaganda Campaign
But the Americans continued to read the Japanese codes. Almost immediately; the Magic Summaries revealed that the new foreign minister, Mamoru Shigemitsu, had begun a world-wide propaganda campaign to brand the Americans as war criminals for using nuclear weapons. Tokyo's goals included keeping Emperor Hirohito from being tried for instigating a war of aggression, and diverting Western attention away from the many Japanese atrocities committed since the start of the Sino-Japanese war in 1937. "Since the Americans have recently been raising an uproar about the question of our mistreatment of prisoners [of war],'' Shigemitsu instructed his diplomats in the Sept. 15, 1945, Magic Summary, "I think we should make every effort to exploit the atomic bomb question in our propaganda. That propaganda campaign has borne its final fruit in the revisionist account of the bombing of Japan.
Yet the evidence is crystal clear. The use of nuclear weapons to end World War II quickly and decisively averted the death or maiming of hundreds of thousands American soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen. It also saved the lives of some 400,000 Allied prisoners of war and civilian detainees in Japanese hands, all of whom were to be executed in the event of an American invasion of Japan. Above all, it saved untold hundreds of thousands more Japanese-perhaps millions-from becoming casualties of pre-invasion bombing and shelling, followed by two invasions and forcible occupation.

Like I said Karim - you would rather see the Great Satan bleed herself white than face the truth.

As for the philistines - Abraham was there first and bought the land legally, or won it after the original ocupants attacked his wells. The philistines occupied the land when the Jews were captive to the Egyptians.

But hey - Karim - lets not let facts get in the way of a good Islamic revisionist story

Oh and if the Bible is true - that is the Walls of Jericho fell - then God has his hand in it. The walls must have fell - or else the Jews would have never had suceeded.

As for you saying that there were no walls, well I can only assume that you are around 3000 years old! The absence of evidence does not mean it didn't exist.

There were walls round Jerico.
When I visited the archeological site the Arab guide showed us the excavations of about 6 sets of city walls, from before the period of Joshua, throught that time, and after. Each set built up on the foundations of the previous. There was a tower from the earliest period, which was so old, and thus so deep, it looked like a well how it was being explored.
So who do I believe?
Karim or my own lying eyes?

I dunno Granny - I mean, Karim is a Muslim - he/she is not allowed to lie "unless ye fear persecution"