Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald discusses the phenomenon of Western converts -- or, in their preferred parlance, "reverts" -- to Islam:
The whole question of who, in the Western world, "reverts" to Islam -- or to borrow a phrase from Jim Jarmusch, reverts to "His Own Private Islam" -- is worth investigating. There are the clearly marginal characters, at the bottom of society, such as Richard Reid. Then there are the ex-gang members wishing to find another kind of community for solace, and choose the community of the umma al-islamiyya -- such as Jose Padilla. There are also the spoiled brats whose minds are video-rental stores rather than well-stocked libraries, and whose parents, themselves comically adrift, offer little guidance, such as John Walker Lindh. (It should be noted that there are wonderful parents who do everything right, yet their children unaccountably fail to appreciate this and become a constant heartache for parents who did absolutely nothing to deserve it.) There are those who, having married a Muslim, "revert" to please him, or her, and may come to realize that there is a bit more to this belief-system than had at first been apparent, and then are forced to cope as best they can.Some native speakers of English, including those who seldom read books in their own immediately accessible literature, will spend years learning another language, in their search for the picturesque or unusual. Not Dickens, but Gottfried Benn or Raymound Roussel, is what their souls seem to require. A taste for the new and the exotic drives so much in this world. One wants to be different, to display unusual tastes. And in now becoming a Muslim in the West, one is also making a statement not only that fortunately is still one that is unusual, but also contains elements of defiance and alienation.
Too many people are Serial Seekers After the Truth. They try on now this, and now that, Way to Happiness and Explanation of Everything. Make up your own list: Rolfing, crystal therapy, Hare Krishna, Tantric yoga, Scientology, Marxism, Trotskyism, Sokka Gakkai, Liberation Theology, not to mention controlled substances, sex of every conceivable and inconceivable sort, and compulsive shopping by sad hearts at the supermarket.
Those who, in their Journey In Search of a Final Truth, pull the cord and get off at the stop marked "Islam," may not only cause the remaining passengers to exchange looks of wariness and suspicion, but also slight smiles, because there is also something comical about these Western "reverters" as well.One suspects that such a person must be just a bit off -- just as 20 or 30 years ago one regarded those who joined what were then easily dismissed as cults, and had to be de-programmed, with a mingling of sympathy and contempt. Muslims, however, understandably regard Western "reverters" as objects of great interest, especially if they appear outwardly to be respectable and not the dregs-of-society sort. They carefully toss out the same well-known names of such “reverters”: the French doctor Maurice Bucaille, the Jewish convert Leopold As'ad, the Qur’an translator Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, and a few others. For such an aggressive belief-system there seems to be a touching need to be validated by the "reversion" of non-Muslim Westerners -- not Africans, not Indians, but Westerners. And the more famous they are, like Cat (ne Georgiou) Stevens, the better. The Reid-Padilla-Lindh variety fails to impress, but a Hollywood star, a political figure, even Prince Charles -- well, now you're talking.
But apart from those who marry Muslims and tepidly "revert" to Islam, in an updated domestic version of All-for-Love-or-the-world-well-lost, there are few such "reverters." What motivates those few? A need for the solace of certainty, and of complete regulation of what is haram and what halal, a need to be special, when one is otherwise so un-special? Students of the psyche, get your tape-recorders and data-disks ready. Islam can trump everything else. Islamic texts carefully instruct "reverts" to Islam in how to treat their non-Muslim relatives, and make clear where their loyalties must lie. No doubt, in the early days of Islam, when the lands of non-Muslims were first conquered, and the conquering Muslim Arabs were dwarfed in numbers by the settled, wealthy, stable, and far more advanced peoples -- Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians, chiefly, and then later Hindus and Buddhists -- they had to figure out rules for those forcibly-converted, or those who, to avoid either death, or the severe disabilities, the humiliation and degradation and insecurity of dhimmi status, "voluntarily" (some volunteers) converted, it made sense to spell out how and why family ties, ties of the heart, had to be cut -- for the greater good of that Grand Abstraction, that Total Everything, Islam, Islam, Islam.
But of course not everyone dislikes, or cannot cope with, the messiness of existence. And as for the "meaning of life" -- well, one may invoke the answer that J.P. Morgan gave when someone asked how much his yacht had cost. "If you have to ask," he said, "you can't afford it." My sentiments exactly.
There's attention-seeking too. Who cared about Yvonne Ridley before she donned a potato sack? And after being captured by the Taleban, too. She must be really interesting. Except she isn't. Islam is dull, as well as everything else.
Here's what Yvonne had to say about Islam and women to the uncritical BBC interviewer, who asked, wide-eyed and breathless, "So why has a feisty war correspondent been drawn to a faith which some in the west say oppresses women?":
Breathtaking, eh? Well I'd certainly choke on it.
An additional catagory would be the politically disaffected. Case in point, African-Americans often express their disaffection towards their society by embracing Islam. I believe this is one reason "reverts" so often turn out to be militants; their embrace of Islam was at heart a political decision.
We have a friend who "reverted." She falls into the unstable area of the chart. We just try to stay friends and hopefully will provide a conduit to get her out. Part of the problem is that so many churches are so wishy-washy that the firm and confident appeals of Islam are appealing.
Off topic, I've been giving some thought about how people like to throw out how Christianity invaded the New World and slaughtered the inhabitants. First, there are differences between how Spain and the rest of Europe colonized the Americas. The Spanish really came to conquer as is evidenced by the conquistadors. The other nations came more for economic gain (furs,trading, etc.) and for a chance at a change in life. There are exceptions, but in general I think the theory holds.
Now the question is why was there a difference in the approach to the New World? I think a significant factor is the Spanish had suffered under Muslim rule for so long. The only possible way to get rid of them was through violence and dogmatic religious belief. On top of that, they learned, from Islam, about the power of spreading religion via the sword. Therefore, in many ways, the Spanish conquest of the New World has a lot of same characteristics of Islamic jihad. Thus, it was a corruption of Christianity by Islam that lead to a lot of the excesses seen in the New World.
I don't know if anyone else has followed this line of reasoning or even if it is valid. I find the possibility interesting though.
Terrahawk, John Palubsky, who posts here now and again, said the same thing to me. It's certainly plausible.
I remember four years ago reading a site put up by a guy who 'reverted' to Islam, who studied first to be a 'Satmar' very religious jew. His conversion was effected by an internet muslim and his site was an astonishing view and insight into the reverts and their mindset.
He had the all conquering vision, the earth squeezing out all influences attitude of the 'conqueror' the believer that they can and should be part of the elimination, the extermination of- the Jewish People- and of Israel, and then, all the infidels would bow.
His site had features on the honorable Adolf Hitler and all that. He was supported by Saudi money, and I noted his site was finally kicked off at the end of last year.
Everything that Abu Hamza, the amputee says, he would say. It was instructive for me, to read his scurrilous attacks upon rabbis, and depictions of all orthodox jews as defiled and demeaning people.
The reverts only have to repeat the phrasing of loyalty twice to Allah and the only messenger, and then they are muslims- hence the myth of the largest growing religion- really the largest dead religion.
To be a Jew, an orthodox jew, takes at least a year and a half, and they turn you away at least one or two times. Not out of arrogance, but because you really have to study, and think, and
the conversion isn't about conquering the world or submitting anyone or anything.
Also, the religion doesn't think everyone has to be a jew to reach a firmer divinity- so- why would anyone who comes asking to be orthodox jewish want to, in a world of jew hatred, the rabbi, asks frequently?
A comparison, for those, whether religious or not, who need side by side facts for their consideration.
Anyway- I remember this formerly want to be orthodox jew with his reverts mentality of kill all the jews, kill Israel, submit the infidels, rid the world of democracy etc etc etc, and I know- that Islam leads the world's belief systems in how to demonize and dehumanize the 'other.'
That's why the hard left is so smitten with them. The hard left, has always dreamed of such accomplishments- and also explains their loyalty to the homicidists of the religion of pieces even unto their own deaths.
Mark
I had a gentleman call in to a radio show I was doing once who described a relative who converted to Islam as "lost to us." He felt once that line was crossed, there was nothing anyone could do.
I think many our black Christian community feel beseiged. They not only have to deal with the whole hip-hop gangster fad among their youth, but also have to try to stave off the encroachment of Islam. The Nation of Islam is one thing, but horrible as it is, the real Islam is much worse.
I truly pray we may bring more and more black folks on board to fight this scourge.
l really dont care why they chose to be islamic, all l know is that they are losers and need to be away from me! my niece married and later divored an Iranian, we were so thankful she did not have children with this monster! her Catholic upbringing l believe left her open minded enough to know enough that women's rights are non existent in the muslim religion! you will always have a few who do this in an open society. proper education will avoid this mentality. you cannot though save everyone from themselves, they have to do it themselves.
Thanks Interested. Palubsky is a pretty smart guy. ;-)
Reading the introduction of the compiler of Cortez's "Five Letters from Mexico" a few years back left me a little baffled. Being a Christian, I had trouble reconciling what the Bible says with the actions of the Christians from Spain. But, I think once you tie in the conflict with Islam, it starts to make more sense. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but you can see how Christianity became twisted.
Terrahawk, you may be on to something. From what I have seen of ME Christians, they are forced to fight fire with fire and do become like Muslims. I had a Jordanian Christian explain how "we have to be as tough as them" after telling me how his family was forced to kill his aunt after she had run of with a Muslim...
"Twisted" is one way to put it.
ex-gang members wishing to find another kind of community for solace...
Why is it everytime we're told a dumbass who converts to Islam it's for solace? It's like the guy staggers into mosque with tears welled up, shuddering from mistreatment at the hands of the man.
What tiresome Liberal claptrap.
ALWAYS WEEPING ALWAYS CRYING ALWAYS TREMBLING ALWAYS MOSLEM
They convert for the power. Power begets them wealth and security and sex and just good old fashioned Arabian fun.
Have we forgotten our Koran, Sirat, and Hadiths here? Let us remember that the more Mohammed's criminal gang robbed and stole and kidnapped and raped and extortted the more popular the great religion of Islam became.
You are probably correct in pointing out the Hispanic attitude toward the New World as having been picked up during over 800 years of Islamic dominance in most of Spain. All one has to do is look at the difference today between North America (U.S. & Canada) and South America in politics, economics and culturally. There is a reason for this. Look at the worldview (religion) of the two groups of early settlers. One came from a northern European, Protestant milieu and the other from mainly Spain. Ferdinand and Isabella were not able to back Columbus' venture until they had effectively rid Spain of its Muslim influence in 1492. Would anyone also like to speculate how the Hispanic concept of male machismo and generally poor status of Hispanic women developed?
I am one of those who "reverted" for marriage. Not knowing anything about Islam before I married it was as easy for me as being a non-practicing Christian ( they’re all just the same-o-same-o religion/cultures, right?!?! No better no worse or at least that’s what the multiculturalists would like you to think). I couldn't have been more wrong in my naivety. Since then I’ve learn from my mother-in-law, that her “culture” is superior and that Osama-bin-Laden is a noble man?! After 9/11 I found interest in understanding Islam and reading the Quran. ( since my wife has never read the Quran in a language she can comprehend). As many of you already know the radicals of Islam really are just good Muslims, faithful to that destructive ideology. Two Children later, it’s now time for them to go to school, I’ve put my foot down on not allowing them to go to a Muslim school but I fear constant conflict from now on. UHG… I wish I knew now what I didn’t know then… It just ain’t a catch phrase
Just a small nit on terminology: The Spanish imbued their attitudes into the aboriginies they conquered in what is now Latin America.
Hispanic is a term invented by partial breed aboriginies (generally up to 1/32) to differentiate themselves from the pure bred aboriginies still back in the bush.
As any Spaniard from Havana or Cali will tell you, they are in no way shape or form Hispanic, and the Hispanics are not Spanish. They are native American Indians. Like the ones who have inundated our southern border.
Terrahawk:
Re: "Part of the problem is that so many churches are so wishy-washy that the firm and confident appeals of Islam are appealing."
Right on. While visiting my elderly mother many times recently (in another city), I began accompanying her to her Anglican church. Finally I decided I couldn't stand it any longer, there didn't seem to be any purpose in listening to mush for an hour or two. Apparently I'm not the only one as the average age of the small congregation appears to be about 75.
A glaring, gaping omission in Hugh's piece:
Hatred of the West (and its pinnacle, anti-Americanism) among Westerners; this cultural self-hatred surely plays a role in the perversion of reversion. Why leave it out? I don't want to hear some lame excuse from Hugh like, at the last moment of polishing up this piece, he espied a long-lost 1946 New Yorker wedged behind his credenza and, with the fire crackling and his bottle of favorite recondite port to hand, became sufficiently distracted and so sent his piece off to the presses before taking the time to fill the lacuna.
It's pretty clear to me that men choose Islam because it puts them in a dominant position, much more than any other religion. These same men also like the absolutist mandate of Islam. Islam will never be accused of being wishy washy.
Since then I’ve learn from my mother-in-law, that her “culture” is superior and that Osama-bin-Laden is a noble man?!
Where oh where is that darned unicorn?
Good posting.
Dr. Pepper:
I think in fairness to Hugh, you'll find he did mention a tendency for some personalities to look outside their own culture before having explored and understood their own culture. That seems to suggest the cultural self-hatred that you emphasize in your posting. In any event, I agree. it's a serious problem.
Theseus:
The European power that treated the natives best was France. Catholic France. Indeed Canada's population is more than 50% Catholic, if the reports are true and so long as polygamy isn't legalized there (see yesterday's Toronto Star for details on that issue). The European power that was most abusive to the natives was Spain. Catholic Spain, and arguably due to the reasons that you and others have presented. The European powers that treated the natives somewhere in between these two poles include Protestant Britain and the Netherlands as well as Catholic Portugal, whose role in the Re-Conquest I personally am uncertain of. My point is only that the situation may be a little more complex than you posit and probably more directly related to the personal objectives of the individuals jumping off the boats than the religions they espoused.
the-sword:
Good luck in your journey in trying to understand the religion that you have married into. Hopfully you do not have to much conflict as you try to bring up your two children. It sounds like your wife is not a strong practicioner of the islamic faith.
Imagine this for a second, I am a white male. Nonetheless, many years ago as a liberal young person, at one point while reading about Malcolm X, I was so entrenched in his story- his struggle, that I found myself entertaining the idea of emulating him. As a young gay man, feeling equally repressed, I contemplated joining Islam out of a sense of "being different" and "opposing the oppressive US society". No, I never actually did it, but in my mind I imagined that it represented the ultimate repudiation of American values, which I so foolishly loathed.
Ah youth. How ignorant I was. I knew so little about Islam then. I am so embarrassed by my past. What a good little leftist I was. Can you all forgive me my childhood indiscretions?
from post above: "they are forced to fight fire with fire and do become like Muslims..."
The idea that the influence of Islam on Spanish Catholicism is very interesting... But think of this from the inside out, not the outside in...
The current deep penetration of Islam into Western cultures and domains (I would say it's akin to allowing an infamous rapist into the midst of your village) will force us increasingly into a binary choice:
1. Remain as we are now (tolerant, truly pluralistic, morally relativistic, non-confrontational, accommodating) and continue to tolerate Islam's rape of our culture and institutions...
or
2. Stop being the way we are for a moment, lose our tolerant, pluralistic, morally relativistic, non-confrontational, accommodating attitudes towards Islam and Muslims and drive them from our midst...
In scenario 2 we run the risk of becoming "like them" fighting fire with fire, intolerance with intolerance... and thereby losing our moral compass which permitted us to develop the tolerance, pluralism, secularism... But we SURVIVE, and have every chance of reclaiming our magnificent heritage after the rapist is driven from our midst...
In scenario 1 we are GUARANTEED to lose to the predations of the Muslim and his vile creed -- The Muslim rape of our culture and our way of life will only end with our degradation and their triumph... The qualities in ourselves which we cherish are not capable of turning Islam from it's lust for rape, destruction, and subjugation into a secular humanist pluralist system... Islam's modalities of aggression, violence, and relentless undermining convincingly destroyed other formerly great world cultures -- this is how the low brought down the mighty, and laid waste to their lands, their people, their ideas, their very existence...
In this I am confident:
Islam will never change. Why should it? It has been a successful force of conquest and domination for 1300 years...
Within Islam there is no room for the kind of plurality, tolerance, and secularity we have worked so hard in the West to cultivate... We are now confronted with an enemy who is hell bent on destroying everything we have created that doesn't comply with his primitive rapist creed, and we have foolishly welcomed this grievous enemy into our midst in alarming and fatal numbers...
Our leadership and our media continue to pretend there is nothing amiss, and that Islam poses no threat to our existence, despite all the contrary evidence...
We all can see the succes of their recent global jihad -- we see the erosion of our security just because they're among us... Wea all know Muslims will do heinous things again if we don't watch them closely... But being the inclusive society that we are, WE too are subject to the same oppressive measures -- this is mainly done to prevent this always outraged Muslim sector of our society from using their isolation as another pretext to attack us -- but is it effective? They aren't quieted in the least from continuing to sue, threaten, and feed of their frothing rage at us, even though we're "sharing the pain" of their "oppression" by oppressing ourselves -- does anyone really fear a bunch of protestants are going to hijack planes and fly them into buildings?
We see the threats they pose to our institutions of free speech, through their violence and agitation. We muzzle ourselves, vainly hoping not to lend another pretext for them to attack us...
In this they have chosen an apt victim in us... They can count on our silence... We even prevent ourselves from having a frank, life-saving, culture saving conversation about Islam and its threats. Generals, politicians, writers, religious figures who speak openly and honestly about the dangers we face because of Islam's are ostracised by us, fired, and margninalized BY US... Islam couldn't have it any better...
Where will this all lead? It will lead to our eventual servitude under Islam if they are allowed to continue to supplant our values with their own...
This must not be allowed. The Muslim must be driven from our midst if we wish to survive.
By the way -- if non-Muslims can only "revert" to Islam, as they claim, and Muhammad came before all other Muslims, does that make him a "prevert"? Just wondering...
does that make him a "prevert"?
That's a small step away from being a pervert.
Where will this all lead? It will lead to our eventual servitude under Islam if they are allowed to continue to supplant our values with their own... This must not be allowed. The Muslim must be driven from our midst if we wish to survive.
The first step, the most important step, and the seemingly absolutely impossible step, is to out Islam for what it is, and expose Moslems for what they are.
Given that this cannot be done, we may as well lay back and enjoy it (Coach Bobby Knight).
MORE MOSLEMS MORE MOSLEMS MORE MOSLEMS MORE MOSLEMS MORE MOSLEMS
However, if Osama gets stupid and lays waste to the New York Metro with a nuke, then it could be possible that a set of infidel gonads just might appear on our horizon. Maybe. Possibly. It's theoretically possible. On paper, at least. Ok godammit it ain't gonna happen if NY goes Tim Russert will tearfully apologize to a scowling Ibrahim Hooper (doily) on Meet The Press I know that but hey a guy can daydream cain't he.
Hello all,
I just cannot emphasise enough on how this subject is. I was nursing my hubby & missed this really important topic..never mind eh...here is my 1000000 Rupees worth, its never too late.
The Westerners who convert now (and their childrens) are the forward thinking ones who will feature prominently in the near future.
You see it is no longer a case of asking "how will muslims integrate in the West". This is the wrong question.
The correct question is "how well will the infidel integrate in the muslim culture of the West".
It is *these* people who convert now who will form the answers.....liasing with the Islamic government (in Amrika for example) on topics like the following:
1) Guidance on who should become a sunni, a shia, Ahmadi and/or perhaps define a new integrated model ....a Wuslim if you will (a white muslim).
2) Positive discrimination.
3) How to best spend Dhimmi tax money collected...e.g more mosques, grants for muslim enterpunership, road building, getting the best teachers in schools, where the cirriculum teaches the virtues and spectular success story of Islam.
4) Changing the work pattern to allow praying during the working day. And so on ...you get the idea.
Islamisation of the West is almost inevitable....
it is only a question of when.
Even sites such as JW are important for people to vent their anger...get it out of their system....then focus, think, convert and get on board....you are the future.
It is sensible & immensely important for your future to get the best infidels on board to design this integration model with leading muslim figures like Tony Muhammed.
Please form an orderly line...and no pushing....I with you all the way to guide you.
How to best spend Dhimmi tax money collected...e.g more mosques, grants for muslim enterpunership...
Well, Naseem, I'm not sure what enterpunership is, but you're having a laugh, that's for sure.
Naseem, You are a fool if you think the Westerners will just bow down and accept this 7th century garbage being peddled as a religion of peace. Its not a religion in the true sense, as its Evil to to core from the founder Mohamed who by his own admission was a terrorist, robber, rapist and a pedophile.
As the above article points out, the type of westerner who embraces Islam are the derelict, drop outs of western society. No one with any intelligence will embrace an asinine, evil ideology such as Islam in this day an age, other than the misfits of Western society. Therefore, if you think that they will develop and be enterpruners, you are sadly mistaken.
Take a good look at all the Muslim majority countries, citizens live in utter squalor, illiteracy and poverty go hand in hand, they are oppressive,disease ridden, corrupt filthy depressive hell holes.
You are one of the lucky ones to escape and get to a western country where you can live like a human being. But you cannot let go of the garbage baggage you brought along. Its very sad
Please form an orderly line...and no pushing....I with you all the way to guide you.
Naseem, when they take over will they let me keep my pigs?
Hugh-- been there, and you hit the nail on the head.
I sampled the "Belief Buffet" in my first year of college, albeit from the safety and anonymity of the internet and university library. I was raised Catholic, complete with K-12 education in Catholic schools. So, getting to a public university finally made religion a matter of personal choice (and you know how "adult" you feel at 18).
I perused the "other people's scripture" shelf at the library with a certain glee, as we certainly didn't have those books in my prior school libraries! I was thoroughly impressed with the Baghavad-Gita and toyed with the notion that Jesus was an incarnation of Krishna. I also browsed everything from Mormonism to Scientology.
But then, I was also impressed with the view of Islam I got from American Muslim classmates, and the surprisingly unquestioning (in hindsight) account of Islam in our "world religions" course. It made it seem like "Catholic Light," by giving into the temptation to reject the faith challenges presented by the divinity of Jesus. And all with the outward impression of this marvelous, accepting community. Having always been something of a social misfit, this made it more attractive.
Ultimately, something in my conscience made it so I could not bring myself to "demote" Jesus from any qualities accorded to him by the Nicene Creed. This was the strong, religious upbringing-- which so many Western kids are deprived of-- coming to fruition. I ended up going back to church on a whim, skeptically at first, but gradually realizing for myself, "Hey, this guy [Jesus] is good." Add to that the inexplicable feeling of delight I found welling up in my heart at having received Communion again.
So I got to "choose" my religion; it happened to be the one I was raised in was "just right."
In a world so fascinated with exoticism, finding that everything I was looking for was right where I'd left it was mildly disappointing in a way, as if to say, "What was the point of all that?" But in the words of Thomas Hardy, "It takes a long wandering to find a short path."
I'm just grateful Islam didn't "get" me, and it motivates me all the more to discourage anyone else from treading that slippery slope.
Naseem is taking the piss, pulling our legs, having a laugh. She's done so very convincingly for some time and has now decided to push at the boundaries to see if we still fall for it.
It is *these* people who convert now who will form the answers.....liasing with the Islamic government (in Amrika for example) on topics like the following...
How to best spend Dhimmi tax money ...
Even sites such as JW are important for people to vent their anger...get it out of their system....then focus, think, convert and get on board....you are the future.
Amrika, indeed. Does anyone still think she's for real?
Well done, Naseem. You had the Amrikans well and truly foxed.
Does anyone still think she's for real?
Naw, Naseem is Hugh Fitzpatrick in drag. I thought everybody already knew that.
What utter BS. If the Spaniards (and English and French...) got their forced conversion attitudes from the Muslims, than why was the first thing the Christians did when they took over the Empire in 312 destroying 6 pagan temples and torturing 2 pagan priests to death? Why did the empire use troops, mobs, and armed monks to convert the empire? Spencer defends the Middle eastern crusades (and not without merit- they were in many ways responses to cries for help from the Byzantines, and the Muslims were in the wrong), but what about the forgotten Northern Crusades, where the only justification for wiping out not only the pagan religion, but also the culture of the Latvians, Lithuanians, and Finnish were that the people residing there were anathema?
Julian, an interesting article appeared recently in the Economist about the Finno-Ugric speakers and their continued worship of nature.
People on this site often forget all the CHRISTIAN atrocities. However, as I have said peviously, Christianity today is not what it was before. It has reformed. The same cannot be said for Islam.
Nassemm, in the Battle of Thermopylae of 480 BC an alliance of Greek city-states fought the invading Persian army. Though vastly outnumbered, the Greeks held back the Persian advance in order to buy time for the evacuation of Athens and the preparation of a greater Greek fighting force. You will not defeat us with the bellies of your women as it is the quality and not that quantity that claims victory in an intelligent world.
How could I expect you to know this, to know the infidel history? Here you are given the chance.
Take it.
Kafir Nonbeliever,
Atrocities committed in the past by alleged "Christians" were in breach of the Scriptures. After all the anti-Christian cult called Nazism cynically engraved "Gott mit Uns" on the belts of its "missionaries".
Atrocities still carried out by Muslims are sanctified in Islam's holy books. Do not let PC blind you.
Rebecca JW, I truly belive that it is Black Christians that will save Christianity in the West. Evengelical churches mushroom where I live here in England. Every Sunday they vibrate with joy, spontaneity, religious fever. They are live and kicking. Sometimes I wonder if the spirit of Enlightment, cool "rationality", "bottleupness" and reserve is not the greatest enemy of White Western Christianity. Its temperature is ...+5 and any more is considered...carried away or politically overenthusiastic and too challenging for the sensitivities of ...other denominations!
Do the English really need a Black Ugandan archbishop Sentamu to tell them to be more...English.
"Multiculturalism has seemed to imply, wrongly for me, 'Let other cultures be allowed to express themselves but do not let the majority culture at all tell us its glories, its struggles, its joys, its pains'".
Dr Sentamu, who fled Ugandan dictator Idi Amin in 1974, praised English culture, saying it had given the world parliamentary democracy. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/4459252.stm
Christianity today is not what it was before. It has reformed. The same cannot be said for Islam.
At its worst, Christianity was never near as bad on as Islam on its best day. There is no equivalency between JudeoChristianity, or any other religion, and Islam. None.
Moslems love this kind of equivalency comparison talk. Not only do they love fake history, and anything that boosts Islam's black image, it's a way for them to not feel so creepy and animalistic for a few minutes.
As a keen gardener I've known for some time that 'reversion' is a disease which affects black currant bushes. It causes them to become stunted and deformed, and to cease to produce anything useful. There is no real cure; the only thing to do is to uproot and burn the diseased bushes.
I was amazed to find that a mental illness with the same name, and with such similar results, affects humans!
'Reversion' is a disease which affects black currant bushes. It causes them to become stunted and deformed, and to cease to produce anything useful. There is no real cure... diseased bushes
They're growing Moslems on trees, now? How much more bad news can a poor infidel take.
Islam is an all-emcompassing belief system . . . way of life. In our chaotic times such a way of thinking is welcoming. No doubt about it. We are bombarded by all sorts of temptations in our society; what better way is there than to turn oneself over to Allah. Of course it's bunk, but a rigid belief system is exciting to many . . . a way of thinking that suppresses free thought. I wish it were not so, but there are obviously many who are tempted and some go all the way. Converts are usually more 'entrenched' than those born into the faith. This is true of any convert to any faith. I recall a Southern Baptist minister who became an orthodox Jew in Roger's Park, IL, a Jewish enclave near Chicago. He was the most devout in a small sea of the devout(complete with eight children to boot. Of course Islam is different than other religions, but do the converts know this going in?? I doubt it. Soon, it is too late. Some escape, but many are trapped . . . like wives who move to the middle east. I pity them. Like the lady in Not Without My Daughter(Sally Field) then must succumb(or escape). On the markedly positive today, we may have gotten the El Quada number 2! I pray it's him.
I've had that same thought for years.Thanks.
And thanks Terrahawk, another legacy of Islam for the Spaniards was the Khums (the 1/5th share of the booty or as they called it in Spain the Royal 1/5th).
And do I dare suggest that the delightful techniques of torture that reared their head in the Inquisition were also taught the Spaniards by the Muslims.
Read the threats and punishments in the Qur'an that "Allah" inflicts on the kufr, and then ponder the torture techniques of the inquistion..
The Spaniards learned a lot from the Muslims, besides Flamenco and the Guitar. Conquest by the sword, the Khums, torture, death to apostates...even the Inquisition itself has Islamic roots..I never realized that before.
Soft minds need hard rules.
Islam is the perfect psychological petrification.
(And, if you're a guy, it beats the hell out of all those 'feminized' faiths, because you not only get to have a bunch of wife-babes, but you can even beat them at will [the stick should be "no thicker than your thumb", guys], and treat them like swill.)
The more that societies become unable to instill strength ...from their own cultural core... the more that "strong" alien faiths will supplant them.
If you teach your kids to despise their own past then any creed that promises to return their sense of animal power to them will be attractive.
Islam is the lex talionis (law of the claw) made God.
And that always lures the luckless, limp-minded loose-cannons at large.
Only greater will in response shall preserve the West.
Teach Socrates. Teach Spartacus. Teach Bodaeccia. Teach Hypatia. Teach Spinoza. Teach Christian Huygens. Teach Giordano Bruno. Teach George Washington. Teach Lincoln. Teach Susan B. Anthony. Teach "The White Rose". Teach both Roosevelts.
Teach our strengths, or expect nothing but morally relativistic suicide from gelding our past.
If we don't instill a cultural spine in our people, we doom them to fall prey to those who have learned to have their own.
(As warped as it is when its paradigm is the pedophile prophet, it is still a source of great power.)
If we create a "cultural self-worth" vacuum in our children's and fellow citizens' skulls, it will be filled by any "positive" force.
Even the vile vomit of the Koran.
I wish to add, that almost all of the converts to Islam of which I'm familiar, at least in modern times, are (were) Catholic or Anglican, exception is the few Jews like Stephen Schwartz.
What is it about the Catholic/Anglican that predisposes them to Islam.
And I still have yet to come across a good explanation to explain the phenomenon of female converts to Islam, (some 30,000 plus) in England, except maybe there is something in the culture that explicitly devalues women, leading them to believe the lie that Islam respects women, and that the hijab protects them from being objectified.
It doesn't, it is just an extreme form of objectification.
A confession, I use to consider myself a feminist, but since encountering the phenomenon of women volunteering for chattledom.. I'm starting to think that perhaps women are indeed airheads and perpetual children, dependent for identity, esteem and validation on the approbation and approval of men.
I've seen the documentary "Mum, I'm a Muslim", and read the statements of female converts..one thing stands out, they believe that they are being respected because they are called "sister", and believe that they are desired "for themselves" because they hide under the Chador/Abaya.
The Susana Osthoff's and Margaret Hasan's are poor lost souls, who never had any real self esteem or identity of their own.
Male converts of course have the carrot of an ideology that doctrinally empowers them, and disempowers women..very attractive to weak men, who need submissive women to make them "feel like a man".. the kind that go wife shopping in Thailand, Philipinnes or Latin America.
I'm starting to think that perhaps women are indeed airheads and perpetual children, dependent for identity, esteem and validation on the approbation and approval of men.
I forget where I heard it, but there's the not-quite-facetious the argument that all of man's achievements throughout history-- science, art, exploration, philosophy, etc.-- have been to impress the opposite sex. Talk about validation.
Think about it: Islamic countries aren't interested in impressing their women-- they're property. Why should they?
And their countries are backward hellholes. Hmm.
Not that I really believe the impressing-the-opposite-sex theory is the whole story (think of all those brilliant monks and hermits), but it makes you stop and think.
The problem in our societies are that people become accessories: Handbag, shoes, boy/girlfriend. But accessories for their own sake, human or otherwise, can't buy happiness or fill an emotional void; validation that comes from outside can never replace the inner sense that one has a right to exist and keep trying to become better, or offset the lack of it.
So both men and women go chasing around in search of validation; I think the traditional gender roles where the man was the provider-- particularly where the subjugation of women is "party line," as in Islam-- make women more willing to flush their own potential down the toilet and seek validation in what someone else decided to be their "proper" role... not a stretch from the common mindset that everyone ought to be married or searching breathlessly for marriage, or "what's wrong with them?"
"Rebecca JW, I truly believe that it is Black Christians that will save Christianity in the West."
-Polishinfideless
Does Christianity need to be "saved” in the Western world? I thought it was Western civilization that was being lost under threat of Islam. I thought it was Islam that was the enemy. I think we agree so far eh? You make it sound like secularism is the enemy. You also make is sound as if a non-believer like myself threatens you somehow. I mind my own business and allow you to worship as you like. Obviously there is no need for you to fear me because I do not force my "lack of beliefs" on you. With that in mind, I do not accept that a secular West cannot purge Islam from its shores. Have you forgotten Pim Fortuyn? Was he a Christian that was out to "save" Holland from Islam and get it rightfully back to Christianity? I am afraid not.
Moreover, it is really rather pathetic in my humble opinion that African priests are providing the requisite emergency "spiritual" guidance to the Western world. I have traveled fairly widely on that continent. I can assure you the way of life there is very simple, painfully so. Even in the large cities, such as Nairobi, the people are comparatively provincial to the developed world. The hierarchy of needs, if you are familiar with that theory, dictates that societies with important pressing problems such as food and shelter do not make for sociologically advanced areas. If you pin your hope on "Christian revival" by borrowing priests from such places as Uganda, I think the experiences of those priests to have relatively little in common with say, a Londoner. Christianity is not suitable (for many) in the modern age unless it accepts modern tenets, which some branches are accepting. For example, the Catholic Church is unbending and is thus its adherents are most vulnerable to lose of faith or conversion. It is these very reasons that have caused Christianity to become so very weak in Europe. NOTE: if you have a better explanation for the loss of faith in Europe, I am open to it. Islam is cunningly seeking to fill that void. But most Europeans are highly skeptical. Furthermore, all Europeans I know laugh at Islam in the same way that many scoff at fundamentalist Christians. The problem is they don’t understand the threat that Islam poses.
I do not have anything against Christianity, in fact I am an "atheist-Christian" like Fallaci and respect it because the teachings of Jesus are praiseworthy and are a proper guidebook for living for some. Christianity can be a beautiful force so long as it does not devour a society. In Africa, I am afraid, Christianity is often very backward and is even damaging in many ways. Nonetheless, I have to confess that a devout Christian is a non-threatening person who, if he or she is pious, does wonderful deeds due to the followings of the bible. I cannot say the same for a “true believer” of Islam. While Moslems may perform kind acts as a human being, they are captured by a diabolical religion that we all know about. A “true” Moslem could be violent, whereas a “true” Christian cannot really be so.
Out of choice, I choose not to be a Christian as is ordained in the bible. However, I respect if you are, or any of my fiends on this board are. Just know that the dogma is NOT for me. Nor is Christianity a guidebook to my Buddhist friends in Europe, or Hindu ones. Are Hindus in India in Europe supposed to get on the Christian bus in defeating the sword of Islam? I’m afraid the Christians will need all of us if they seek to reign in Islam. This is especially the case in secular Europe. Additionally, don't think that if we agree on Islam we desire a return to the dark ages/middle ages in Europe. Talk of “saving” the West gives non-Christians the impression that you want to save Europe only to make it entirely Christian. So pull up a chair, and enjoy the company of secular friends that seek to do you no harm, and have no desire to lecture you on your faith (or lack thereof). It is those secular friends that you must convince about Islam, not your friends in the churches. It is the secular population that is the key.
I anticipate that you might argue that Europe/N. America/Australia/NZ cannot "reemerge" without Christianity. This is false. The only reason we have (relative) peace today is because of our relative military (and technological) superiority over our foes, whether they be Iran or China. For example, Spain does not fear Invasion from say, Tunisian vessels because it is firmly anchored in western defense structures. Christianity is NOT the bulwark that you want it to be. The bulwark is in fact the brute force of the US military (pax Americana) against the entire world save Russia, with which we still share the prospect of mutually assured destruction.
Interesting... I just read this post as originally written by Hugh in October 2004 in response to a thread on Stephen Schwartz (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003688.php), and lo and behold see that Robert just posted another story about Schwartz...
Coincidence?
the-sword
I too reverted for marriage, but since have made it very clear to my wife that her husband is a proud cross-worshiping kuffar. Suprisingly, as her father is an Imam, she didn't divorce me, ah love. A few close friends who also had a weakness for Desi girls, have converted and married. We call ourselves the crypo-Catholic club and occasionally meet for drinks and compare notes on who has the nuttier mother-in-law. I too have two kids and like you expect lots of conflict in the future. A good strategy in regards to your children (and maybe your wife) would be to make them knowledgable of Muhammad's many missdeeds.
A good insight into a true believers mindset is Yusuf Smith's blog at http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/ There are lots of links to other blogs by converts.
The January issue of "First Things" has an excellent essay titled Europe and Its Discontents by Pope Benedict XVI. Unlike his predesesor, I belive he understands the threat poised from Islam.
Kafir Nonbeliever, I am not a Bible-basher. You have got me wrong. Just the opposite - I am a mutant Catholic, on a spiritual search, but with Christianity closest to my heart and mind. If you look at Rebecca's posting, you will see that I was simply commenting on her observations about Blacks turning to Islam: "I think many our black Christian community feel beseiged. They not only have to deal with the whole hip-hop gangster fad among their youth, but also have to try to stave off the encroachment of Islam. The Nation of Islam is one thing, but horrible as it is, the real Islam is much worse.". Rest later - I am being evicted from the computer world by my ...internet-addicted daughter :-)
Western reverts are so important to Islam because although Muslims may not admit it, they have an inferiority complex when it comes to the West. Sure they think that they are better "morally" than the West, but culturally, they know they are not, especially if they have spent time in the West. A Western revert "proves" that Islam is not a backward religion that is only fit for the poor and unintelligent. The lack of notable Western reverts to Islam makes the Muslims more prone to inventing some like Hume, Shakespeare, and Prince Charles. They need to be validated because if Islam is the perfect religion, then why do the most civilized people in the world (not just Westerners, but also East Asians) prefer something else whether it be Christianity or Buddhism? Why is this so? Muslims simply cannot figure it out, so they need to be reminded that yes, an educated and respectable Westerner could find Islam appealing and convert. But most who study it, do not, even the unstable Karen Armstrong didn't convert to Islam and she had nothing but good things to say about Islam. To Muslims, a Western convert, and the more Western the better (there is a particular emphasis on Anglo and Nordic converts rather than say Spanish or Russian ones), is as precious as the Magic Wonderstone itself.
If you look at Rebecca's posting, you will see that I was simply commenting on her observations about Blacks turning to Islam: "I think many our black Christian community feel besieged. They not only have to deal with the whole hip-hop gangster fad among their youth, but also have to try to stave off the encroachment of Islam. The Nation of Islam is one thing, but horrible as it is, the real Islam is much worse.". Rest later - I am being evicted from the computer world by my ...internet-addicted daughter :-)
-Polishinfideless
Ah then, we are on exactly the same page, my apologies! I agree entirely with that assessment. Look at the prisons in the UK, France and the US. MOSLEMS MOSLEMS MOSLEMS. Few one dared to mention that “Tookie” Williams, the head of a notorious Los Angeles street gang was now “pure” because he converted to Islam.
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“ A Western revert "proves" that Islam is not a backward religion that is only fit for the poor and unintelligent.”
-Igor
I agree 100%! We must educate people about Islam and not allow it to happen.
“Society cannot survive on atheism alone”
-Igor
Even as an atheist, I admit that most people probably could not do as I can, that’s true. I hate to admit it, but Christianity should be saved for the sake of our civilization. The problem is I don’t want it to turn into a fundamentalist monstrosity that it could become as a result of a conflict with Islam.
Igor, my full solidarity (nostalgia, deja vu!) with your manifesto above.
Kafir Nonbeliever, it is my impression that Muslims feel much more comfortable with...I beg you pardon...atheists. They presume that lay enemies are easier to conquer than kaffirs with strong religious convictions. They obviously do not appreciate the fact that Westerners might be determined to defend democracy and humanism with a zeal equal to the religious one! After all who knows perhaps Trifkovic is right saying that it is the soul that wins in the end. Please do not get me wrong. As for Christianity's defense I truly believe that in Europe it is the most denigrated and bullied faith. More later. I am being chased off again...:-( More later - I have not finished. Regards!
Just adding my two cents to this conversation, but I think that if the meaning of life is about being on a journey towards self-discovery, which it should be, then one doesn't need a god or a religion to tell you what to do. You tell yourself what to do.
That's why religion is just entrapment, but still christianity is better than Islam.
Voltaire, your nickname spekas for itself :-)
From my perspective though it is not a journey of self-discovery. the question is not WHO, but WHY.
Phew! I have managed to jostle my way to the PC!
So where were we? Let me give you an example of discriminating against Christianity at my daughter's school, a secular, state school. First let me explain reasons for my decision to send my child to a non-religious school. I believed that it would be beneficial to my child to get to know different cultures that make up Britishness, that going to a "multi-ethnic school" would broaden her horizons, would enrich her, would teach her tolerance towards various traditions and outlooks (so you see I am far from any Christian fundamentalism or desires for Christian hegemony.). At the beginning of the school year in September 2005 one of the teachers confiscated a chain with a small cross that my daughter was wearing on her neck (and she is not particularly religious either, it is more due to the fashion prevelant now in the UK!). The teacher informed her that it would not be returned to her until before Christmas.
My daughter explained to me that it was not the first time a cross had been taken away from her and that the same happened to a number of her fellow students. I was shocked. I wrote a letter of protest to the school strongly objecting to this policy, which allows girls of some other denominations wear their religious symbols (i.e. Muslim girls can wear hijab and Sikh girls their special bracelets), but does not grant the same rights to Christian (and presumably Jewish) students. You might know that Copthall is a secular, state-run school and therefore I would expect that no religious symbols should be permitted, which I would have accepted being in favour of secular education.I cannot, however, agree with a policy that favours some religious groups at the expense of others. I do not view a cross as a piece of jewellery just like a hijab is not a protection against the sun or cold. My daughter also told me in a very off-topic manner that ...there is a prayer room at her school for Muslim students! Needless to say there is no chapel or a place of religious practice for any other denomination! The school replied in a very condescending way, giving ....safety as a reason for policy of not allowing religious symbols to be ...visible (hmmm...I wonder are they already protecting Christian students from jihad?). I have then written to my MP and started wearing a cross (something I have never done before as I did not regard it as a necessary declaration) at work....to annoy a Muslim colleague. By the way he is allowed to take 1,5-hour long lunch break to go to a mosque every Friday while we are told off for overstaying at lunch by 5 minutes! Do you see now that I am not a hysterical Bible basher.
Kaffirs of all countries unit!
Kafir Non-believer, sorry forgot to make it absolutely clear: Kafirs (believers and nonbelievers) of all countries unite!
Polish Infideless, I hate to hear stories like that.
It disgusts me that those of my generation have been especially destructive of the old ways of teaching, and are now producing a generation that not only has been given nothing of value, but has also been taught to deny the very existence of values. Our children are taught to use the phrase “value judgment” as a pejorative. But in denying children the right to the judgment of value, modern teachers are denying them the right to utilize their own spirituality. Spirituality is all about value. The progressive spiritual experience essentially concerns the progressive discovery of higher and higher values in the commonplaces surrounding us. Spiritual development consists largely in the process of extracting universals from particulars. Poetry is the language of the spirit.
I agreed with Polishinfideless that it is unfair to treat religions differently in a public setting. I also agree that we must fight Islam, but I will not stand for its replacement of radical Christianity. The kind I believe Rebecca would like to impose. Kindly read the other thread about polygamous marriages.
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"Deny the very existence of values?"
-Rebecca
Is this what will created, the destruction of Islam, and concurrently the destruction of Western Civilization only to be replaced with someone ELSE'S "values". In other words, let us destroy this (disgusting) secular modernity only to replace it with another hideous vision: fundamentalist Christianity.
Based on what you have stated in the other thread regarding gays, I am VERY proud to say that your values, Rebecca, are not mine. I see little to make me want to join your "crusade" Rebecca, in which you stated that I had to, “join (gasp) Christians”. Indeed I gasp at the thought of fundamentalist Christians. Those will never get my support if they seek to destroy minorities such as myself.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/009788.php#comments
It is important to remember that Christianity is not truly entirely western as many indicate. It was imported into the west. Thus, Christianity is only western in a somewhat peripheral sense. Admittedly, it has been there so long that it has become a large part of it. But Western civilization today is not the civilization of the Holy Roman Empire - history did not spot there. While Christianity is undoubtedly a very important part of our foundation in a historical sense, it has been severely altered. Do we not agree with those modifications/taming of Christianity? Western Civilization today really IS secularism, the notion that one can worship as he or she pleases, or not. But if we don’t agree with the changes made to Western Civilization, there is nothing really to discuss.
Christianity is worth defending, but is not entitled to being propping up in place of Islam.
"It is important to remember that Christianity is not truly entirely western as many indicate. It was imported into the west."
There was no "West" into which Christianity could be "imported"; unless you count the Roman Empire as the West.
The fact is that Judaeo-Christian civilization called Christendom became the West, and was the West for over a millennium, and contributed to its own evolution into the modern secular West -- not without many conflicts, discussion, arguments, strife and bloodshed, this is true; but that's the way life is. For all its faults, Christendom was not "hideous"; that word should be reserved only for Islam. I'm a secular agnostic, but I'm not so stupid that I would say an orange with a few bad seeds is a rotten, poisonous apple.
We are in an existential fight for existence. Islam is a packaged deal, an all or nothing proposition; a such, send it back from whence it came...to the desert.
Respect what Hugh says, well, I am reading a book about muslims conversions to catholicism and protestantism. And almost all were because they found a true catholic or a true protestant near to him.
I don´t love the current West, the lack of christian valors in the current West is important, and I think that it´s a great door for going in Islam.
Some of yours are proud of the atheism and secularism that dominate Western now. I am not, because now, like the Roman Empire a culture without religion is destroyed by the time and their enemies.
Some of you speak about the spanish in America, it was a huge enterprise, and indians were more respected that other populations in the french and english colonizations. It wasn´t perfect, of course, It wasn´t. But now, we can see the results, in almost all Hispano-America are indians and in North America and Canada not.
In addition, when I thought in the democracy and the current West, the french revolution with their six thousand killed catholic priests and many farmers and the following european genocide made by Napoleon was more bloody that any inquisition in 300 years.
And in the "lights centuries" the XVIII century we live a huge amount of wars.
And later the deism transformed to atheism in the nazis and marxists regime, with their millions and millions of died people. When the people think that God doesn´t exist, like Dostoweski, said all is allowed.
Others say that catholic and anglicans convert to islam, I would like to see the estadistics, and well, I know, that a a truely catholic, following what Christ and his church says, of course not converting to islam, a "nominal catholic" is another thing.
Franze, indeed, if life means nothing then how can life be worth anything? One simply cannot jump from bare fact to value without going through meaning first. Religion gives meaning to life and hence, it elevates life's worth.
"When the people think that God doesn´t exist, like Dostoweski, said all is allowed."
What utter nonesence. I have no belief in God and I do not commit crimes. Why is it that in secular Europe, the Islamic invasion aside, they are largely not violent societies - an not crime ridden ones? I can generally walk the streets of Europe with far more security, aside from those savage/primitive/barbarian Moslems, and feel more secure than I do in the largest US (the "devout" country) cities. One does not need religion to be prevented from doing something, fear or prosecution and ones own morals suffice. Let us not be ridiculous. Islam is threatening the West inthe FUTURE, but the West is not CURRENTLY destroyed because it is secular!
You also forget that secularism is the only real hope of taming Islam in Europe. Christianity is a vehicle for some, but not for most. Secularism will be an ferocious foe for the Moslems, one that is much more powerful than Christianity because it is based on reason. Once secularists like myself wake up and sense the danger, Islam in Europe will hopefully be attacked. Islam will not survive in (the open) in such an enviroment, unless idiots believing in PC at all costs further appease them. The schism will likely come and it may be ugly in Europe. But it may force Moslems to seriously question the religion. That, I hope, will lead to the skaking up of the entire religion.
The opposing view on this board is generally: onward Christian soldiers. You will need others too, not just Christians to defeat Islam. Without secularists on board, you have not a prayer in Europe. And with all this talk of Islam bad, Christianity good, you will have trouble. There are many of us that know what Christianity is and was, and will not be silent about it.
Thus, you shall not destroy Islam only to supplant it with Christianity. That time has gone. Moslems must leave Islam of their own accord, and not for another religion - though I am not opposed to that, but they should leave it for logic and reason, which REAL Christianity is unlikely to offer them. To point the finger only at stupid/violent Islam, and ONLY focus on Islamic atrocities is absurdity. Here are some things that in a free society, on this open forum, I would like discussed about "pure" Christianity. Incidentally, if anyone believes I am wrong, I am fully prepared to debate them.
So which "Christianity" are we talking about anyway? The "real" one, or the "modern"; the one beaten back by secularism and reason? If it's the former, count me out and prepare for a culture war. The latter is just fine with me and it is also the one that I fully respect.
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Here is a mere taste of the "REAL" Christiantity before your eyes, in all its unpleasantness.
Adsuridites of the bible: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/abs/long.htm
Hey, don't be an Ethiopian, not only will you be hungry (skinny), you'll be dead!
Zephaniah 2:12 Ye Ethiopians also, ye shall be slain by my sword.
NOTE: Maybe this is why the Western world is allowing Islam to choke Ethiopia, it's the good old fashioned "sword" theory?
Injustices inthe bible:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/inj/long.html
A cute little story about family stoning:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/joshua/family_stoned_burned/jos07_02.html
Cruelty and Violence in the bible:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
Ezekiel 5:1 And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair. (nice mullet/do!)
Ezekiel 5:2 Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.
Ezekiel 5:3 Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.
Ezekiel 5:4 Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.
Ezekiel 5:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.
Intolerance in the Bible:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html
Is it ok with you sirs, I sometimes have to work on Satudays!
Jeremiah 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.
Contratictions in the Bible:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
Is polygamy ok in the bible? Numerous versus pro and con. It looks like the "pros" have it.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/polygamy.html
NOTE: I guess maybe the LDS is on to something with respect to "real" Christianity eh?
"Family Values" in the Bible:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/fv/long.html
Read them, they are fun!
Women's issues in the bible that are ridiculous:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html
This was before the epidural, OUCH!
Childbirth: Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
NOTE: Remember ladies, apples = bad. But men's "seed" = priceless and ought not be wasted/spilled.
"Science" in the bible:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html
Genesis' account of creation, is well, interesting.
Genesis: 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament (a solid, dome-shaped structure in which the stars were placed) of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
"Prophecies" inthe bible:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html
NOTE: One of my favorites is that the Nile will dry up. I must have missed that one.
"Sex"
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/sex/long.htm
NOTE: For a quasi animated version of Sodom and Gomorrah, see: http://www.thebricktestament.com//genesis/sodom_and_gomorrah/gn19_01.html
"Homosexuality"
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay/long.htm
On Homosexuality:
20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put TO DEATH; their blood shall be upon them.
So Christians that are opposed to the current pesky "secularism" and its "destructive force" would have me killed eh? It's so nice to know I am loved by god's love. Do you repudiate what the bible says, or will you ask that I hand my head over to the vice/virtue squad for chopping? You'll have to fight me for it!
MY CHEERS TO THE US FLAG AND NOT THE BIBLE:
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them. -- Exodus 20:3-5
Ah my friends, I defend the US, and my honor it by saluting it (the flag). It is no graven image to me.
As for Islam, don't worry, I will give it a similar public beating. It is deserving of far more serious attacks. But don't try to make Christianity sound pure. Also note that these are not even HISTORICAL examples of Christian atrocities. I'm glad I am not a "heretic" living a few hundred years ago in Europe for having written such "blasphemy". Ah but I could tread lighly by writing a book called, Si et non. Remember that one?
A comment for kafir nonbeliever.
You have the privilege of scorning and quoting out of context and time and believing as you wish- in the judeochristian world.
The marxists- however- didn't allow such generosity in reverse, and the nonbelievers of the J.C theology, might remember that the greatest advances of our western civilization took place over a 3300 yr period not in spite of the religion, but because of it.
So please, guffaw all you want- but in the muslim world- you'd be dead meat. Here, you are a free man.
To find greatness, and dignity, and courage, and honor, one I think shouldn't be a bigshot, as your har de har har about parts of this and that with religious belief. There was and is greatness in them thar hills and if you can't see it, that's your right- but it doesn't make you a hero.
The East, and Islam, have precious little of that civilized development, and the tyranny they inherited is an obliquy to their source and sight though I'd question the former and the latter in that regard.
We were speaking of reverts- not your atheism, which you are more than welcome to engage and live.
However- the death toll now, and the last 125yrs, from marxist
atheism is something to bow one's head and hardly crow about.
That, was the quinticenntial false messianism of the atheist.
It represents the truism that altheism doesn't rid the world of
false belief, it allows all kinds of absurd belief.
JMO
Mark
Mark, as an inhabitant of an ex-PostStalinist country I can't agree more from you. The problem with (some?) atheist ideologies is that they aspire to a the "sanctity", to some sort of religious hegemony and absolutism. Been seen in Communism as well as in Nazism, and what came out of those hammered-up "religions" was far from enlightened humanists' dreams.
Sorry for my horrendous typos this morning - trying once more:
"Mark, as an inhabitant of an ex-PostStalinist country I can't agree more with you. The problem with (some?) atheist ideologies is that they aspire to a "sanctity", to some sort of religious hegemony and absolutism. Been seen in Communism as well as in Nazism, and what came out of those hammered-up "religions" was far from enlightened humanists' dreams."
When I read the inanities of Begum Yvonne Ridley, I wonder how anyone can take the British press seriously anymore given that she used to be [or still is?] a respected UK journalist. I must say that I am not impressed with her intellectual qualifications or her common sense.
MGoldberg,
Remember that Satmar has been causing the Jews a lot of trouble for a long time. During the Holocaust, the Satmar rebbe got into Switzerland on the Kastner train. I don't know who's pulling the strings in Satmar now, but when you see "hasidim" at pro-Arab demos, then they are Satmar. So the "revert" that you mention wasn't moving very far when he went over to the Arabs/Muslims and now harangues against Israel. Something is very fishy about Satmar and has been for years. The Satmar rebbe claimed some sort of Talmudic justification for opposing Zionism [the Three Oaths], but nothing in halakhah allows the kind of treachery that Satmar practices. Somebody is pulling the strings.