Hamas rules out talks with Israel

Well, you have to give it to them: At least Hamas are honest. No taqiyya and Arafat-style lies there.

I stand by my comments published in January 2005:

The topic of democracy is one that is particularly fraught with pitfalls when discussing it with Muslims. A Muslim can honestly say that they support democracy, provided the discussion is narrowed to encompass only the electoral process for choosing leaders or to matters that are not specifically addressed in the Islamic canon (Koran, hadiths and Sira). The standard Muslim retort to the charge that Islam is incompatible with democracy is that the tribal shura mechanism is “democratic”.

It is quite another matter however when the democratic process is used to legislate, as in the original Greek and Roman philosophy upon which modern democratic systems are modeled. Democratic legislation implicitly embodies the notion that sovereignty is vested in the people. It is the use of democracy to legislate that is anathema to Islam because sovereignty of the people is explicitly eschewed by the Islamic canon. The Islamic ideology immutably vests complete sovereignty in Allah (as expressed in the Quran, haditha and Sira) and no human institution can posses authority to create law. In this regard, the use of democracy to legislate is fundamentally incompatible with shari’a and constitutes blasphemy.

The most profound distinction between shari’a and Western law is that the canonical foundations of shari’a are immutable and the Western constitutions are entirely amendable. Noone in the Muslim world has authority to abrogate a single word of the Islamic canon, whereas the power to amend the Western constitutions is fully vested in the sovereign people.

Having elections for leaders by using popular democratic voting systems does not make a democracy. Even a truly clean democratic election may do nothing more than install a fascist despot. A democratic society is one in which sovereignty is vested in the people and in which self rule is operationalized through democratic public choice mechanisms in matters of legislation, not just choice of leadership.

Reference

British Muslim jailed for plotting to kill Iraq hero
By Joanna Bale

A MUSLIM who plotted to hunt down and kill a soldier who was awarded the Military Cross for bravery under fire in Iraq was jailed for six years yesterday.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2011363,00.html

Why should they Talk with Israel..

Since they really believe they have Israel on the Ropes why would the Islamo Faschsts Give up their Position...

this is Un-islamic..

When you have your enemy against the ropes..
They will not stop but attack
With even more diabolical schemes..
With much more death..

Until The black flag of Islam reigns supreme..
No matter how many children they have to Blow up.

DrMack, Most excellent post. I just wish our current administration, Bush & Condi, had your insight in to this.

The new nazis.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/617/362/1600/PalestinianNaziSalute01%5B1%5D.0.jpg

Fjordman:

Well, isn't all that 'honesty' a big comfort?!!! I'm sure after 'handing it to them' the people of Israel will be sleeping much better these days...

Taqiyya? I thought that was a beverage served in Hamas-run establishments.

Dr. Mack:

Don't you think that Islamic ideology per the Qur'an eliminates any possiblity for meannigful democracy in peoples' lives?

I'll tell you what I mean by this.

Virtually every decision a person can make with his or her life is ALREADY made for them by the Qur'an. From birth to death an individual's life is circumscribed: what they eat, what they wear, who they can associate with, how they conduct their sex lives, how they conduct their social lives, what they say, what they think, what they do and when they do it (the Qur'an even orders men to wipe their penises several times daily), and how and when to pray. Shariat even dictates to government officials how the Qur'an and its commands are imposed in Muslims' lives. Muslims cannot implement modifications on sharia't. They're stuck with both sharia't and the Qur'an (GOD says so). Democracy cannot change any of this--because GOD says so!

There are virtually NO choices left open to Muslims--GOD says so. All meaningful choices that we in the western democracies are able to make in our lives have all been negated through the Qur'an and its dictates. Changing governments in any Islamic society amounts to window dressing, don't you think, since doing so can only affect the degree to which Islamic teachings can be imposed on the society. And nothing else really. That's the whole deal.

And this is but one of the many tragedies Islam has wrought on humanity.

The lines are now firmly drawn. Palestinians have quasi statehood. They openly admit that their aim is not a palestinian state but the destruction of Israel.They have reached the stage where they will have to accept responsibily for their actions- actions which can now be called acts of war.
Each time acts of terrorism are commited, the western liberals become more radical to excuse these actions or justify them.
Once Palestine is recognised as a state, it will have to play by the Marquess of Queensbury rules it will be responsible for the mayhem of its "uncontrollable factions".
This could be a welcome levelling of the playing field for Israel.

I share one thing in common with Hamas. Pictures and PR . . . the peace process was a joke. There has only been one interested party in peace. From 1948 onward, Israel has offered land for peace and receieved nothing. I agree with Ariel Sharon's disengagement from Gaza, but it clearly is misinterpreted by Hamas. There are so many potential ramifications of this. First, the Egyptians and Jordanians can't be laughing too hard at Israel's plight. Mubarak and King Napolean in Jordan both fear what their own population would vote in . . . certainly not them! I believe Israel has completely abrogated security for the southern Gaza border with Egypt. Now Egypt has to listen with great interest for destabilization is a two-way street. Afterall the Muslim Brotherhood spawned Hamas in the first place. Second, Hamastaan, a 'courageous Muslim undertaking' will only embolden the "Jordanian Palestinians" whose cousins live in Ramalah. I can see the Jordanians in more trouble than the Egyptians but in Egypt too the writing is on the wall. The one Muslim leader who I do respect for at least trying to do right for his people, Karzi, seems also at risk from the assasins scathe. I see Bibi and W holding a strong line in the sand. It is critical they do so.

biorabbi- the difference between king abdullah or mubarak and Israel is that if the "Palestinians" gave real trouble to either of the arab leaders they would massacre the illiterate bastards, as the Jordanians did after arafat and his band of merry men tried to kill king hussein, and no one would bat an eye- just arabs being arabs.
but, when Israel targets a blind "sheikh",a professional murderer of civilians, "the world" goes mad.
"The world" sucks.

Templar has it right on the dot.

There are three standards.

One is the standard for virtually the entire world.

One is the redicuolously high stanards Israel are held to were it should allow the 100,000 would be martyrs (Islamic heros who kill women and children and elderly) go free to get another chance for "peace".

One is for the arabs who are held to standards lower then animals. Arabs are permitted to commit the worst atrocities, and get away with absoloutly everything.

The smoke is no longer surrounding Israel. The full fire of Hamas and the Muslims has broken through.

President Bush said he would not talk to Hamas until they recognize Israel. The only recognition that Hamas has for Israel is down their missile and rifle sights.

All the pieces are fitting together.

Hamas will quickly start the war in the Middle East. They are embolden by their landslide election.

All Muslims want Israel wiped from the face of the earth and all Jews murdered.

The war in the Middle East can not be stopped except by the death of Islam. Conventional weapons will not stop the tens of millions of Muslims that will be attacking Israel, only Nukes as prophesied by the Bible. Revelations tells what is to happen across the Middle East. Stars (missiles) will fall out of the sky like over ripen figs from the fig tree shaken by a might wind. Mountains will be moved and islands will disappear.

War is fastly approaching in the Middle East and nothing, not even America's billions in bribes will stop this war.

Be prepared.

Be ready.

The Texican

It's the same as having Ahmadinejad in Iran, at least we are through the bullshit.
Re Jordan, i doubt that the position of the King, or the Hashemites, is that secure; a palestinian insurrection could be successful, certainly if there was some help from Hamas fighters from the west bank.

Anything can happen now, both good and bad. By me, this is a country mile better than a couple of years back, where we had arafat, a man not brave enough to make peace, at the head of a totally corrupt and cynical government.

Hamas did not want the responsibility of governing, or making difficult decisions, of compromising both internally and externally, as real governing always requires; it was so much easier to be on the outside and criticize.

So what next? Since one neighbor wants to finish another, what next?

Dr Mack, you make a lot of good points which totally contradicts such Islamic apologists like Bernard Lewis who claims that all of Muslims problems stem from a simple lack of freedom. In actuality, all of Muslims problems stem from the cult of Islam itself. I just wonder why a Turkish model can't be achieved in the Middle East even though it's far from perfect.
The events of Hamas gaining total control of Palestinian territory are very troubling indeed.
Netanyahu stated today that democratic elections are useless if people are intent on terror. After all, as he pointed out, Hitler got elected in a democratic process and we all know the damage he inflicted on the world.
I really don't think we can expect democratic reforms in societies that have no history of human rights, that consider no alternatives other than terror, and who are willing to die just so they can kill us. How can you possibly fight such an enemy?
Also, pulling the strings behind this disconcerting event is a key player - Iran. Iran has been at war with the world since Jimmy Carter allowed terrorists to hijack the Iranian revolution. I think we've come to the time where talk is ineffectual against an enemy that will use any means to destroy us including the democratic process. The time to call a spade a spade and lay our cards on the table has passed. Maybe we should cut to the chase and level Iran. That should be message enough to the rest of the world that we mean business and will not tolerate terrorism any longer.

Mandy wait before dismissing the democracy=peace argument, although I disagree with it and we have overwhelming proof from the Hamas Elections that it isn't true, I would still like to see what Natan Sharansky and Bernard Lewis have to say to explain this outrage, and since this is the only field those two are engaged in we should have their explanation in a couple of hours so you won't even need to wait long.

dby the Jordanian King is secure because he doesn't care about human rights, if the Palestinians launch an insurrection then he will just kill them by the tens of thousands, his army is equipted by America you know.

On top of Arafat's attempt to put a crown on his own head in the so-called Jordanian Civil War, there was his 8-year terrorpalooza in Beirut. And later, the Kuwaitis also expelled their Pallies after Kufr drove Saddam out of Kuwait, because the Pallies had joined in on the rape-and-pillage party of Saddam's forces.

Nitpick: Mahmoud Zahar is a media spokesman, not "Hamas Leader".

Well, he have the nightmare now, the times are very clear, we are seeing that in full democracies, the islamists win. It will be necessary the steel wall between moslemlands and Western.

It's always the same...give them a hand and they want an arm.

Don't ever expect differently as long as Islamic theocracy is the preferred government in the Middle East.

it adundantly clear to me why Ariel Sharon removed the Jewish settlements in Gaza.

He wanted a free fire zone for the Israeli military, should the terrorist attacks start up again under Hamas.

"Also, pulling the strings behind this disconcerting event is a key player - Iran."

dont forget that Hamas were offered $100 million in funding when they met the Iranian president in Damascus recently.

this funding will increase to substitute the withdrawal of US and EU funding - and Israel will wake up one morning to find a fully funded Iranian satellite state right on its doorstep - with thousands of revolutionary guard suicide bombers all primed and ready to go.

god help us over the next few months.

Now all the WMD's in Syria will have a new home, in Palestine.

Moose

on language --
There is no such nation as "Palestine". When we say " Palestine", we give in to entropy, an entropy that threatens the entire world. When anyone refers to the west bank as "Palestine", they give in to Hamas, to al Quaeda, and to the Arab league.
PALESTINE IS NOT A COUNTRY. Don't believe me, check the CIA world factbook online - ain't no plaestine listed there.
The area should be reffered to by conservatives as either "Judea and Samaria" or, for the truly objective, the "west bank".
Thank You.

Beth said it rather well and succinctly some days ago, that elections such as they were in the PA are not an exercise in democracy.

BioRabbi is right that Hamas has misinterpretted Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza and I'm sure Sharon and his senior military advisors pretty much expected what they saw. It's only the gormless ones who continue to believe that there are any partners for peace on the Palestinian side and that includes Christopher Hitchens, who is a little too easily mesmerized by the Ed Saids and Sari Nusbeiyahs of the Middle Eastern world.

I'm not terribly good at fortune telling so I'm not going to make any predictions as to what will happen in the near term, but Hamas has a few problems to deal with, some that are related. The Palestinian treasury, already badly depleted and a stated policy to eliminate Israel that will entirely close down what little trade that went on with Israel and crimp the western aid pipeline closed too.

How indeed will Hamas fund jihad and still be able to deliver all the normal services that governments provide when their only sources of support are other governments and private individuals committed to the destruction of Israel?

And just how well will those Palestinians who voted out Fatah because of its financial corruption enjoy living under Hamas's enforced Sharia?

templar - when the Brits were running the place it was called "Palestine"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

"The area should be reffered to by conservatives as either Judea and Samaria or, for the truly objective, the west bank".

you left out Gaza.

lets be honest , most people wouldnt have a clue if you went around talking about "judea and samaria". and more importantly the Palestinians THEMSELVES have called it Palestine for ages - hence the PLO.

lets be realistic here , before rumbling down the same path that lead to the idiotic "homicide bomber" meme

"How indeed will Hamas fund jihad"

simple answer. Iran.

google around for the Iranians removing billions of their dollars from European banks (all denied by them of course)

This is a good thread. Nearly everyone is right on the money...speaking of money...

Waterdragon52:How indeed will Hamas fund jihad and still be able to deliver all the normal services that governments provide when their only sources of support are other governments and private individuals committed to the destruction of Israel?

Dont worry about money...G Bush will send them (Palestinians) all they need. They seem to already have run out of those billions he Blair and G8 sent them. Guess Abbas and the boys split that up and took it home.

"Guess Abbas and the boys split that up and took it home"
if you lived in a shithole like Gaza, with the those fun loving Islamic Hamas nutters breathing down your neck, heck, even you would be dipping into it to ensure that you got your house in Switzerland.

Fellas, should we start debating "the day after", "the month after" and "the year after" scenarios ? By this I mean that this starts badly look like islamists are on the collision course with the rest of the world. And they are taking that course sooner than we thought.

For the sake of an argument, assume that Israel-Hamas develops into a full scale war. Then Israel threatens with nukes. If that does not work, then Israel fires not hundered but perhaps a few nukes.

After the smoke fades, let's check the connections. How will the world look like after ***BOOM*** ? I assume that number of launched nukes remains in a few; world did not end in Hirosima and Nagasaki as cynical it may sound.

I have come to think that it may be a good thing that islam shows it's true face already now. If they did so 2016, Europe definitely would not be in a position to do anything any more. Therefore, it would be good if the medias got a shock in a form of war, which I only hope would not be of nuclear art. A major shock would finally wake up the dhimmi medias and politicians. It would then be finally acceptable to drive deportation campains. You are a muslim in Europe ? Fine. Out you go. Select a muslim country of your choosing, and don't hit the clyver to the door on a way out. Islam ? Outlawed. Try spreading it here and there's a racketeering suit waiting.

Muslims deported, Islam outlawed, law and order restored. A new renaissance begins; science and arts are flourising. Welfare rolls cut in half; the dhimmi left protecting the welfare rolls sacked. A positve spiral begins; shrinking welfare rolls and crime lead to tax cuts which boost the economy ever more. This leads to new jobs which cut the welfare rolls ever more; the rising tide lifts all the boats. The era of Eurosclerosis is over.

Only thing that puzzles me is what kind of collision is required to achieve such a deportation scenario. Any ideas ?

The intellectual groundwork has not been laid to make a realistic response to the very large scale mass murder towards which the activist Moslems are headed.

Specifically, it is still accepted that Islam is reasonable, that Islam is a religion, and that it is possible to be a Moslem and a moderate at the same time.

After the nuclear device explodes, I look for widespread denial, massive apologies to the Moslems who set the bomb off, and paroxyms of guilt on the part of Wetern media, academia, and permanent governements.

At that moment, someone wil peek out from behind a tree and begin whipspering about the Islamic scriptures. The first steps, baby steps, to lay the groundwork will have thus been taken. Tentatively.

But won't be until the second massive mass murder, or maybe an Islamic takeover of Sweden, that Westerners will be permitted to publicly utter even slivers of the truth about Islam.

And even then, such speech will be closely monitored by the scowling visages of Ibrahim Hooper, Tim Russert, Condi Rice, Bill O'Reilly, Pinch Sulzberger, Sen. Hillary Clinton, and other well known Islamist censors.

Hamas is now emboldened even more so. They will continue to pursue the destruction of Israel but I predict that they will take a play right out of Arafat's playook. They will put up a front politically and say that they are moderate and they want to keep a dialogue open with Israel...yada,yada.
They will have a splinter group that will operate under a different name and this group will continue the bombings, murders, etc. Whenever a bus blows up or a missle crashes into an Israeli neighborhood Hamas will say, "This is a fringe group, we have no authority over them. They are acting on their own."
They'll play the same game Arafat played to perfection. Pretend that you are a legitimate partner in peace, while behind the scenes you fund and direct more Jihad.

Democracy and Islam are clearly MUTUALLY exclusive as is painfully obvious in the Islamic pseudo-state of Palestine (and by the way aren't most Islamic nations basically pseudo-states when you come right down to it?). And aren't Islam's continued existence and the survival of humanity likewise mutually exclusive?

Isn't it better to have these Muslim dogs out in the open, declaring their intentions without all the smoke and mirrors we've had for decades?

Isn't it better to hear the clarion call for genocide from Hamas in Gaza and Ahmadinejad in Iran, than to listen to the lies of vermin such as Bandar, and his trained Western pets from the State Department, and even former US Presidents including Bush and Carter?

I, for one, am glad to finally have some clarity... The voices on the MSM are still talking about the "armed wing" of Hamas... But as the drama unfolds, the unmitigated force of their Islamic philosophy becomes harder and harder to ignore, as it was so long under the regimes of the Arafats, the Mubaraks, the King of Jordan, the "moderate" Rafshanjani in Iran, Abdullah in Saudi Arabia, etc... All of these liars and beggars delivered nothing of value to us, and only served to muddy and confuse the real discussion about Islam... They have done far more, even than the radicals who were always a constant, to lend momentum to the true Muslims under them, and in whom they've always had an alliance, and allow them to gain in numbers and force.

Now that the truth will no longer be shielded, now that the veil is being ripped away from the fiendish face of Islam, we will no longer be fooled...

"Grandma -- what big claws you have!" we used to say...
"Those are only on my militant arms -- the rest of me builds schools and hospitals... don't worry my pet, my delicious stupid pet..." said the former Muslim leaders...

Here you could substitute any Muslim liar that has spoken of the moderation of Islam, or who promised to keep the ravenous eating beast under control... Now the mask it coming off, and we see the feral monster that was concealed...

Islam's fangs -- Islam's claws -- Islam's bloodshot eyes -- Islam's slathering tongue -- A hellish beast beginning to rampage for food, for victims, for slaves...

Democracy to an islamic country means everyone votes...to install shari'a law or Hamas or some other system totally at odds with civilization. We are wasting our military and our treasure in Iraq.

US_infidel writes: I predict that if Hamas runs into funding problems, they will split into two groups, an official group that receives billions from the West because it believes in continuing the "Peace Process," and a second group that participates in jihad and receives money from the first group for the purpose of jihad, and the two groups will seem to try to "reconcile" differences between them, confusing Israel and the Infidel West cunningly.

But isn't that what was already happening between the 'sister' organizations of Hamas and Fatah.