They will remain those same lovable mass murderers, belying the learned analysts. From AP:
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Following their resounding election victory, the Islamic militants of Hamas met the question of whether they will change their stripes with a loud "no": no recognition of Israel, no negotiations, no renunciation of terror.But the world holds out hope that international pressure can make them more moderate.
Because human kind cannot bear very much reality.
At stake is the future of Mideast peacemaking, billions of dollars in aid and the Palestinians' relationship with Israel, the United States and Europe....
Yes, and the peace of the world, and the fate of the global jihad of this age, and the fate of free societies, and more.
there is no difference between the PA and Hammas, in that they want Israel destroyed, the Jews driven out to the sea. with Hammas they are just more open about their motives. The PA just talked the talk and took in billions of dollars from the West. Now the West will try to throw dollars at Hammas to change their ways, l have already heard the pundits on talk radio and tv news.. at least the world will learn more about the ruthlessness of the islamicfacists, and the sooner we can destroy them.
At least the Israelis know where they stand now. We now know the Palestinians don't want peace. So the Israelis must concentrate on destroying the likes of Hamas, those civilization-hating cavemen (and that's an insult to our ancestors of 20,000 years ago, who were infinitely more civilized than the Muslims of today), and we must deny them financial assistance of any kind.
apologies for reposting this link - just bringing it to Mr Spencers attention, in case he missed it
hamas to implement sharia law
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060128.wxhamas0128/BNStory/Front
"there is no difference between the PA and Hammas"
Fatah are secular nationalists (well ok, we'll forget about that Al Axa martyr thing...) - but like any nationalist terrorist group, you *can* eventually deal with them.
Hamas are pure Islamofascist.
there's a huge difference. lets not get mixed up here folks.
Along the same line, Hamas says it will not change.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2013596,00.html
Hamas stands its ground as West demands change
Jan. 28, 2006
Mahmoud al-Zahar, widely regarded as the leader of Hamas in the Palestinian territories, is the group’s most senior figure in Gaza after the assassination of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi in 2004.
Born in Gaza, he studied medicine at Cairo University. An admirer of Egypt’s Gamal Abdel Nasser, he turned to Islamism after Israel’s rout of the Arab regimes in 1967. He grew disillusioned at what he called the ‘contamination and poverty’ of the Egyptian system.
An early follower of Sheikh Yassin in Gaza during the 1970s, he was a co-founder of Hamas in 1987. He served as its first press spokesman, was expelled from Gaza in 1992 and sent into temporary exile in Lebanon.
Israel regards the 60-year-old thyroid surgeon as a terrorist who runs an organisation that has sent suicide bombers to kill innocent men, women and children. It tried to assassinate him, but he escaped an F16 raid on his home that killed his eldest son and injured his wife.
Dr al-Zahar offered no apologies for his past or his hardline views when he spoke to Stephen Farrell of The Times this week
On giving up weapons:
“Why do we have to give up our weapons? If Israel comes back to occupy our land, will your country come to defend our people? Why do we have to put up our guns while every country everywhere has in addition to a political system a strong military system in order to protect their homeland, their interests and their people?
“So why do you consider us a unique phenomenon that we have to keep the Israeli border, to keep the Israeli aggression against our people, to keep our people inside Israeli jails without resistance?”
On negotiations with Israel:
“Negotiation is not a goal in itself. It is a method; it is not an objective. If Israel has anything to offer on the issues of halting attacks, withdrawal, releasing prisoners . . . then one thousand means can be found.
“Negotiation is not taboo. The political crime is when we sit with the Israelis and then come out with a wide smile to tell the Palestinian people that there is progress, when in fact, there is not. The Palestinian Authority (PA) negotiated with them for many, many years and reached lastly a deadlock. So why should we be a new copy, like Fatah, wasting the time and money of the people negotiating for nothing?”
On relations with Israel:
“We have to disengage from Israel economically, on security, everything. We have to open the doors to the Arab and Muslim countries.
“Co-operation on the security field was a disaster for the Palestinians because it threatened the integrity of the Palestinians. When the PA co-operated against Hamas, that was a very critical moment that could have pushed some Hamas people to attack the PA.
“We destroyed our economical status by the linkage of our economy with the Israeli (one) . . . For example, we pay 5.5 shekels (66p) per litre for petrol from Israel. From Egypt, one metre from our borders, it is one Egyptian pound (9p). In 2004 we paid to Israel in one year $186 million (£105 million) for electricity. If we took it from Egypt it will be $20 million. We have ten commercial agreements with the Arabic and Islamic world without taxes. Israel takes from us 17 taxes and they are destroying our industry.”
On fears that the West will cut off aid:
“Forty per cent of donated money is conditional. If the condition is to dismantle the resistance movement to prevent Hamas participating in the government, when the people vote for Hamas, how can we justify to the Palestinians that we are taking money from a donor country at the expense of national interest?
“So we are not in need of the money, especially if it is at the expense of our national interest. But even so we ask everybody to help the Palestinian people, but without conditions. And they have the full right to come, watch and observe where the money went, where it is used. But if they are going to help Israel’s long-standing occupation this is unacceptable.”
On Europe:
“The European people came to me in the last month and they said within six months they are going to do their best to change the attitudes of their administration, because they do not accept Hamas is a terrorist organisation.
“Sooner or later the European countries in particular are going to change their mind concerning their attitude with Hamas.”
On relations with America:
“With America in such a ‘dirty man’ period I think nothing can be changed. In America there is a Christian Zionism. They believe that Jesus will return for the second 1,000 years. You heard from Bush when he said, ‘It is a new Crusade’. He is arousing a deep hatred, an historical hatred in this area.
“The F16 which destroyed my house is American. The Apache helicopters are American. The international decisions in the Security Council backing Israel are American. The pressure on you to help the Israelis and to consider Hamas terrorist is American.”
On US foreign policy:
“After the attack on Iraq they are suffering from a big hatred, a bad feeling from the Arabic and Islamic world and also the international community . . . They arrange for a very dirty policy in the Middle East. They attacked Afghanistan and put in (Hamid) Karzai, an American collaborator, and put in a corrupt Iraqi collaborator. And they dismantled the security of Egypt by arousing the protests of Christianity and Islam. They tried to interfere in Saudi Arabia. Now they destroy the integrity of Lebanon. Now they threaten the situation in Syria. What is running here is big crimes, international crimes.”
On electoral victory:
“It is good for the history of Palestine because the corrupted system should reach an end for the benefit of the Palestinian people. For Hamas it will give a second stage towards being legitimate. We achieved the first process: the legitimacy of fighting against the enemy and achieving success. The second is constitutional.”
Very insightful article. Hamas does not appear to be worried about the world recognizing them. Ain't democracy great!! Gee, I wonder why they don't like us? Maybe we can just talk it out. Kumbaya, Kumbaya, my ass.
Even if Hamas said it would change, does anyone really think they would? Israel gave up the Gaza, and the rockets have still been sent into Israel afterward.
All Israel's withdrawal accomplished was the expansion of an existing junkyard. The Palestinians have done nothing productive with the evacuated area. All they've done is burn the synagogues down.
My grandma once told my sister and me: Never marry a man thinking you can try and change him.
The State Dept. needs a similar grandma to drive her ocean-liner '80s Grand Marquis down to Foggy Bottom, with some curious ethnic confection in hand, and tell them:
Never cooperate with a terrorist organization thinking you can try and change them.
Shinolite,
Simply put - a resounding message!
I believe that a "nation" of beggers really have no ability to make responsible decisions, and therefore have no ability to form a nation. And that is the fundamental problem with the Palestinian Terror-tories.
In light of the election of Hamas Terror Group to their government, the world needs to wake up and show some tough love to this nation of those with their hand out to the world, and simultaneously their fist raised to the world. Beggers end up hating those support them, and the world must stop giving the "bread of shame" to the Palestinian Terror-tories.
The first thing that the world needs to do is withdraw ALL AID (every bit of it) from the Palestinian Terror-tories - NOW. And Israel needs to CLOSE to border crossings - NOW. The Palestinian Terror-tories need to support themselves, by themselves.
Palestinians need to be able to feed and support themselves from their own resources, and stop begging to the entire world.
A nation of beggers is not a nation of adults, but a nation of adolescents who have not grown up into responsibility for their own lives. That is why in every other country there is an age restriction on voting. We don't let little children vote for a government, because they are not adults, not responsible, not mature, and "have nothing to lose" since their parents are taking care of them.
That is precisely the case in the Palestinian Terror-tories.
The world is taking care of these adult-age children who have no responsibility for their lives, since the world takes care of what is, in essence, a nation of beggers. And of course, because of that, such adult-age children are not responsible, feel they have "nothing to lose", and not surprisingly cannot make responsible decisions.
So since Palestinians have done the most irresponsible thing possible in electing an Islamist Extremist Terror Group Hamas to lead their government, it is time for the world to show them some tough love for them to GROW UP. Stop all aid, cut off EVERY DOLLAR, EVERY EURO, EVERY POUND - RIGHT NOW. All UN NGOs must be cut off from supporting the Palestinian Terror-tories - by military force if necessary.
It is time to STOP ENABLING Palestinians to live and think like CHILDREN - who have "nothing to lose". This endless charity has done exactly that - enabled the Palestinian Terror-tories to appear to look like adults, appear to vote like adults, think they can ask for a nation like adults - but do NOTHING for their own self-responsibility and maturity. Isn't time that these adult-age children grow up and take responsibility for themselves?
The Palestinians want a nation based on their Terror-tories.
And now their terrorist group (aka "government") Hamas wants to build an army.
Fine. Let them fend for themselves. Stop the charity NOW. Teach the begger nation what the results are of biting the hand that feeds them. It is essential for any PEACE with the Palestinians that they GROW UP, and take responsibility for their own food, resources, and education.
Until then they should be treated like an immature rable with adolescent maturity. In America, we don't keep giving money to an obvious alcoholic on the street. It is necessary that such tough love be given to the Palestinian people RIGHT NOW.
======================================
Hamas floats Palestinian 'army'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4658872.stm
The political leader of the Hamas militant group has said it could create a new Palestinian army following its surprise election victory. Khaled Meshaal, who lives in exile in Syria, said the force would include its militant wing and would "defend our people against aggression"
"But the world holds out hope that international pressure can make them more moderate."
Translation:
"But the world holds out hope that international pressure can make them put more moderate figureheads in power so it will be easier for the West to justify continued jizya payments that fuel a slower Jihad against the hated Jews rather than the impolite faster Jihad that Hamas advocates."
Come on folks... Europe hates the Jews--always has, always will. They just prefer to be a bit more polite and gradual about it than Hamas and Hitler.
If you have any doubts about Europe: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,1696158,00.html?gusrc=rss
And see that the world's request was already underway even before the election. You'll see that all the usual Fatah suspects--probably even Abu Mazen--will somehow, magically stay in the PA gov't and speak of unity, peace and reconciliation.
Israel: WAKE UP and defend yourself!
Shinoliite
You always give me a good laugh.
kamala -
"...Europe hates the Jews--always has, always will."
Bullshit. In fact, mountains of bull ordure.
'The Guardian' does not even represent public opinion in the UK far less public opinion in the rest of the EU. This newspaper has a daily circulation of approximately 340,000 - Europe has a population of coming on for half a billion.
From this discrepancy even you ought to be able to see that your posting was an entire ocean of male bovine excrement.
I have been reading a couple of posts a month on this website for a while. While I disagree with your paranoid conspiracy theories, the censoring of postings on the website and your medieval, crusader views on Islam, I sometimes find the links posted informative so generally put up with your nonsense.
Nevertheless, jeffreyimm's comments were the last straw, because the analogy to beggars encapsulates both the arrogance and ignorance that I frequently see displayed in postings here.
Firstly, in terms of arrogance, I would recommend to jeffreyimm to try living in the state his "beggars" have lived in for generations for a month. Having worked as a volunteer in the third world (in a region with a sizeable Muslim community in a largely Buddhist country) and spent more than a couple of months on what jeffreyimm, given his/her sense of understanding and compassion, might label a "lifestyle" of less than a dollar a day, I can assure him that he will find out for him/herself two things:
- firstly, that very few beggars actually like being beggars, i.e. that given a choice would very much rather not beg for help from other people but actually, hey, guess what, they are beggars because they - you'll be surprised - don't have any money or options (you try getting a job, starting up a business or looking for options or the American Dream in Rammalah); and,
- secondly, that being a beggar is actually quite a maturing experience - that lack of options can be very sobering, and that you rapidly find that there are few opportunities for you to display your adolescent, immature and childish side when you are trying to figure out how to support your family through the next day
In addition to your arrogance, jeffreyimm, your views are typical to the ignorance often seen on this site, often the result from the views of people who have had little actual exposure to the realities of the Islam/Christianity conflict on the ground level, both in the dimensions of time and geography. It is easy to hold simple, black/white views on Jihad and extremism from a safe distance, with Mexico to the South and Canada to the North, the Atlantic to the East and the Pacific to the West. If you have grown up in an environment where this conflict is a sterilised set of references in textbooks and an occasional FOX News broadcast, it is easily to assume you can tell right from wrong.
On the other hand, for those of us who come from parts of the world where the conflict has been an intrinsic, defining part of our history for centuries, the extremist (just one of many) flavour of modern-day Islam everyone here appears to be a self-proclaimed expert on is actually incredibly subtle, full of grey areas and much more manageable with conventional methods than you think (or, as it seems, don't really think). If this conflict has taught us one thing is that we all can be extremists when need, fear and confusion drive us to be so.
My country is a full member of the EU (the Old flavour, not the American puppy New one) and 99% Christian. Our nation has spent centuries trying to hold back (and most frequently losing the battle, no thanks to the Christians of Western Europe) the most militant forms of Islam. Yet we fear militant Islam much, much less than most of the arrogant neo-crusaders posting on this site.
Certiori...
Hmmm, let's look at 2002 and 2003, as just one example 2 year window. (Feel free to select the '20s or the '40s or 1959-60 or 1990-1992 if you prefer)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=169625&contrassID=2&subContrassID=15&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
France, Belarus, Turkey, Austria, Italy, Hungary, UK, Czech Republic, Romania, Belgium, Ukraine...
Even the EU conceded in their 2003 report http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D281103/eu_anti_semitism_report.rtf,
constantine,
Why has your nation "spent centuries trying to hold back ... the most militant forms of Islam" if you "fear militant Islam much, much less" than the readers/posters here?
Constantine -
We do not entertain paranoid conspiracy theories. There is no conspiracy, there is merely the open fact of the koran. I suggest that you read it. There is also the fact that the Mohammedans have created trouble for the indigenous populations of EVERY country in the world at some time in the last thirteen hundred years - and they are still doing so.
I do not believe that postings on this site are in any way censored - quite the opposite, in fact, seems to be the stated aim of the people who own this site. If you had truly been reading on this site for some time you would be aware of that.
Of course beggars would rather not be beggars but your logic it dreadfully at fault here. Economic aspirations are not a guide to political or religious beliefs as you seem to believe they are.
So you say, and I quote,
"It is easy to hold simple, black/white views on Jihad and extremism from a safe distance, with Mexico to the South and Canada to the North, the Atlantic to the East and the Pacific to the West. If you have grown up in an environment where this conflict is a sterilised set of references in textbooks and an occasional FOX News broadcast, it is easily to assume you can tell right from wrong."
The United States of America have experienced at first hand what Mohammedans can do when undertaking the obligation of jihad as laid down for them in their koran (again, my friend, read it), and it has certainly not grown up with a sterilised set of references and an occasional Fox broadcast - or had you, for some inexplicable reason, managed to forget the total outrage of the 11th. September, 2001 - probably the most outrageous act of warfare ever committed, bar none. Ah yes, of course, you probably have forgotten. People like you have always had a selective memory when it comes to attacks on your own kind; people like you only ever remember when we attack someone else. You are the sort of person who would blame us for starting WW II.
The conflict has been an intrinsic, defining part of your history for centuries, as you put it, because you have failed to come to grips with the nature of Mohammedanism. I presume we are talking of the Greek part of the world here and if we are then I would suggest that the current couldn't care less attitude of the Greek Government and people towards the Mohammedan giant on their doorstep is just astoundingly unbelievable to most of the rest of us in Europe - talk about burying your heads in the sand and hoping the problem will just somehow go away. I have never seen such collective denial in all my life.
As for your unbelievably stupid assertion that Mohammedanism is manageable with conventional methods, well that is something I find hard to dignify with a polite response. All that has been gained by attempting to manage this problem in the conventional, old-fashioned, way is a daily, yes daily, that is to say one each day, terrorist outrage somewhere in the world, coupled with demand after demand that we in Europe change our centuries old laws and customs.
If you fear Mohammedanism less than we do then it can only be because you are unbelievably ignorant and incredibly stupid. (By the way, there is no country in Europe that is 99% Christian. Officially Greece is 84% Christian - in practice, about 47% Christian.)
Constantine,
You are full of it, and I don't believe your background (in fact, I believe you are Muslim). I spent much time in the Middle East (3 very different parts of the region) and have seen things first hand. Additionally, I have a close relative who, as a non-Muslim, left Egypt for safty. I ahve spent a great deal of time in that country.
Yes, many Muslims are hospitable and personable. There are many Muslims who don't really understand their own religion and are therefore peaceful. There are many who have honestly bought into all the many conspiracy theories about Jews, Americans, etc. I can't blaim them, as individuals, for their warped views of fairness and getting "revenge" for Islam.
That said, Islam is NOT a benign ideology/religion. It warps those followers who take it too seriously. It destroys a sense of freedom and individuality. It develops a hatred and revenge toward the "other" who is at fault for the many problems in the Islamic World. As Islam is perfect, the backwardness of the Islamic World is the "fault" of the West. Islam brainwashes followers to believe the world would be utopia if Islam ruled supreme and Sharia law was universal. Muslims honestly believe their gross discrimination against non-Muslims is actually justice: non-Muslims are rebels against God, and therefore deserving of the unfair treatment (until they come to the "religion of truth").
I could go on, but the fact that Most Muslim nations legally discriminate against non-Muslims and preven Muslims from changing religion is enough. You cannot use "shades of grey" in this issue. It is wrong PERIOD. You would never accept Western nations discriminating this way against non-Christians. There is no way to justify Muslims doing it to religious minorities. It is worse than the "Jim Crow" south for non-Muslims.
My fight is not with Muslims per se, but Islam. Islam grows and is held together by force and coersion. New Muslims are brought in the religion without all the facts about the violence/hatred (109 verses commanding violence against non-Muslims in the Koran and worse in the Hadiths). Once new Muslims come into the "faith" they find out they face death if they wish to leave. They learn that things they thought were right: mercy and simpathy toward non-Muslims, etc. are actually wrong. They are to hate non-Muslims and convert the world. This hatred and bitterness eventually destroys their soul and they long to die as Shahid.
I believe you are Muslim. Your "shades of grey" argument is the standard for Muslim apologetics: Collateral damage in targeting terrorists who hide in population centers is the moral equivalent of suicide/murder operations. The US has "murdered" 4 million Muslims, so Al Quaeda is just getting even. The Mosad planned 9-11. The CIA made Bin Laden. Etc. Etc. In some things, there is no grey. Legal and de-facto discrimination against non-Muslims is Black, PERIOD. No Grey area. Suicide-Murder is BLACK. No grey PERIOD. The 109 verses commanding violence (unlike the Bible which only describes 3000 year old violence) is BLACK.
If you want to put down this site, my advice is that you better disclose your actual background. You aren't being honest.
kamala -
It would be nice if your links led anywhere instead of just to error messages.
None-the-less, if you wish to split hairs I will allow that there is a distressingly constant low level of aggravation against the Jewish poulation of Europe by neo-Nazis, and by others before them, but your attempt to smear the entire population of Europe as being anti-semitic is just ridiculous, overblown shock tactics.
I, myself, come from a mixed familly and I have many Jewish relatives throughout Europe (despite the Holocaust) with whom I talk and do business on a regular basis. Not once have any of them said, or even intimated, to me that they have been the victims of an anti-semitic occurrence - and believe you me, given the way my familly talks I'd know about it.
kamala
Anyway, according to Barkat & Alon what anti-semitism there is is shrinking in Europe. The Iraeli Prime Minister's Office in Tel Aviv accepts this for a fact, also.
Here's the link I tried to paste in above.. a comma was appended incorrectly:
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D281103/eu_anti_semitism_report.rtf
Here's another report from the EU:
http://www.europarl.eu.int/studies/eumc_report/eumc_main_report_en.pdf
Read for yourself, but the latter report describes:
* 64 antismetic incidents in Belgium in 2002
* 28 violent antisemitic crimes in Germany in 2002 and 16 in the first half of 2003
* 193 antisemitic incidents in France in 2002 (6x increase over 2001 figures)
* A "significant increase" in antisemitic incidents in the Netherlands in 2002
* 350 antisemitic incidents in the UK in 2002, and a 75% increase in the first quarter of 2003 over the first quarter of 2002
* 131 antisemitic incidents in Sweden in 2002
It also reports that there were few antisemitic issues in many European countries, such as Ireland and Luxembourg.
As for "first-hand" experience, a good friend of mine spent six weeks during high school in the '80s living with a family in the suburbs of Paris. He's Jewish, but his French family had no idea--neither his looks nor his name gave it away. He came home in disbelief at how antisemitic his host family "brother" and his friends were, and how often anti-Jewish comments were part of their teenage banter...
Am I saying all Europeans hate Jews? Of course not. But clearly there is a pervasive antisemitic current throughout Europe, and there clearly is a major problem at the EU policy level (i.e., obsessive fawning over Islam) as explained in Bat Ye'Or's books (often motivated by Arab oil influence if not outright antisemitism).
"My country is a full member of the EU (the Old flavour, not the American puppy New one) and 99% Christian."
Old flavour huh, Greece is a relatively NEW member of the EU. A country unable to even introduce the Euro if it wanted to.
What an arrogant statement about the "new puppy" countries that have risked the lives of their soldiers and assisted the US. These countries did so placing themselves in risk of terrorism. Whatever your views on the Iraq war, do not dare to impugn the nations that ally themselves with the US. The US SAVED these countries from the yoke of communism/a resurgent Russia by expanding the define umbrella to them (NATO). We are seeing that resurgence of Russia in Georgia, Moldova, Belarus and Ukraine. Ukraine itself is succumbing and reverting. Russia strikes at the Baltic states politically as well as their greater enemy: Poland. The only force to counter this is the US, not inept countries like your own.
So what if you are Christians? Do you fancy yourself better than Poles, Czechs, Slovaks or Hungarians? Or is it simply that you believe yourself better than the soon-to-be-EU neighbors states of Romania or Bulgaria? Puppy states indeed. Greece is a real "puppy state" of Europe, one of dhimmitude to Islam, bigotry and arrogance.
Greece's arrogance is legendary and must not be forgiven. A nation on Europe's fringe ought to keep silent and pray for Western assistance in the event of a war with Turkey. I would also like to remind you that Greeks were beggars of the highest order in Europe. All things considered, Greece is still a relative beggar country for EU funds. Did you also forget that it was only decades ago that you nearly fell to the communists too? Shameful comments Constantine.
I know many a Greek that lived in Istanbul in the 1950s. GO TALK TO ONE ABOUT HOW WONDERFUL TURKEY IS.
kamala -
Ah, those reports. Suddenly it's all clear. As far as they go they are useful but whether or not they give an accurate picture is open to debate. What they certainly do is give a reasonably accurate indication of trends - though some social analysts would dispute even that. I certainly dispute the figures. For heaven's sake, it's an EU report. It's all about getting money for somebody. It doesn't have to be accurate, just convincing. Government doesn't work in Europe quite the way you would like to think or quite the way it seems to work in the United States. Follow the money trail before using any statistics produced by the EU or European national Governments. (Actually, you can't follow the money trail because our audit procedures are deliberately designed to make that impossible - yes, deliberately designed that way; after all, what good would it do to let hoi polloi know whats going on.)
There is no problem at EU policy level, there is just a failure on the part of many people to interpret the moves by the EU authorities in the light of the moves made by the national Governments and in light of the (undisclosed) long-term strategic plans. Examining the policies of the EU or any of the European Governments is a highly arcane art which most outsiders get incredibly wrong (many, many on this site get it wrong, too). Bat Ye'Or got it mainly, if not completely, wrong - in fact I've never laughed so much - sorry, I tell a lie, I did laugh more than that at poor old President Reagan who believed what Mrs. Thatcher told him because she wrote it down. So, she wrote it down; it still doesn't make it true - she's a European politician for goodness sake: it's axiomatic, if a European politician tells you something it probably isn't absolutely true or true in the way that you think it ought to be or true in the way it sounds or at all. They've had two thousand years to get good at this and they really are - much to the confusion of many of you on the far side of the pond. The first three things you learn as a student in the Law or Politics in Europe is "All Truth Is Relative" and "Never Tell All Of The Truth" and "Never Tell Any Of The Truth If You Do Not Need To". Poor President Reagan went to his grave wondering why he failed to anticipate what really happened. He thought that she lied. Duh, well, yes. She was a European politician.
"Examining the policies of the EU or any of the European Governments is a highly arcane art which most outsiders get incredibly wrong (many, many on this site get it wrong, too). Bat Ye'Or got it mainly, if not completely, wrong"
---
Ahhh, is this similar to how "understanding Islam" is something "outsiders" (i.e., non-Muslims) get "incredibly wrong"?
How about some specifics? What did Ye'Or get "wrong" in her book Eurabia? What did she get "wrong" in describing the Euro-Arab Dialog project called "Sharing Stories," a Euro-Arab exchanged between schools in the Palestinian territories and the Netherlands, recounting the life of Palestinian youth--their isolation, abandonment, but never of course their intifada against the Jews?
There is a rise in anti-Semitic acts in Europe. It coincides with the increase in Muslim population.
Hamas is in control. So, things are very diferent by this event now.
ANY attack on Israel from Palestinians, even from a " single person of extreme thought", will be brought to bear on Hamas, and the weight of their past actions. ANY attack from now on will hold the terror goverment responible, as far as Israel sees it.
ANSWER: close the tap; shut the switch!
Certiorari,
You're doing a lovely song and dance, with
some nice subject changes, but I have a hard time
believing anything you say, as you provide no
evidence beyond snide remarks.
Fact is, Jew hating has a long history in
Europe. It suddenly just "all went away" after
WWII? George Orwell documented the (kinder,
gentlet) English antisemitism a few times, that's
all gone now?
I don't think your picture is accurate
either. I know plenty of Jews, a fair number of
Europeans, and even some Jews from Europe. I'd
say from my limited sample that almost all of
the antisemitic violence in Europe is from the
muslims, but it's also clear that some nations
(like Austria) are quite antisemitic, even
without having many Jews. Yes, yes, I know about
Bruno Kreisky.
Anyways, this is somewhat off topic, and I
realize that we Americans are not saints on this
one either. But Julie Burchill does not represent
the UK either, though I do find her really funny.
Back to Hamas. Pull the money. I don't care
about leverage. Let the Saudis fund everything.
Articles like this AP "news" story make me hunger for a "Spin Watch" website that would deconstruct all the little rhetorical tricks journalists use to sacrifice their integrity and spin away uncomfortable truths.
Let's see: "Hamas leaders say they won't renounce their violent ideology, but the consequences of failing to do so are likely to be catastrophic: loss of life-sustaining aid." But wait! There's really no way the West can do that, because "an overly zealous stance could steer the Palestinians further away from moderation". So there really won't be any consequences to Hamas' continued terrorist stance, will there? The new Palestinian government is led by a terrorist organization committed to the obliteration of Israel, but the West has to worry not to push them "further away" from moderation? How much further away can they get?
And the idea that Israel and the U.S. should oppose Hamas' call for Israel's obliteration, have now been arbitrarily redefined to be an "overly zealous stance." IOW, one's refusal to be murdered is "overly zealous."
And a Hamas' leader requesting a Palestinian flag instead of a Hamas sash to wave before the Western news cameras is regarded as a "shift" in the "organization's slant." IOW, Hamas' call for the complete wiping out of Israel is just a "slant," and a PR gimmick for the color TV cameras is a "policy shift."
"By all accounts, Palestinians didn't choose Hamas because they reject peace talks with Israel...." How does anyone know this? Have exit polls been taken to show why Palestinians voted the way they did? They knew what they were getting--an organization that carries out suicide-bombings and refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist.
The subtext of this article? Hey, let's just forget the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization that is pledged to destroy Israel, and that the U.S. has refused to negotiate with terrorist organizations. Instead, let's have another charade like the Oslo accords. Let's sign some more pieces of toilet paper that no one expects will be honored and enforced. Let's continue to emulate Chamberlain waving the Munich agreement before the newsreel cameras.
It's subtle propaganda like this, packaged as news, that is undercutting Western attitudes. I wish our elected officials would do exactly what I did--take one of these spin pieces, hold a press conference and deconstruct it line by line, to show folks what to watch out for.
Steven L,
There is a site which busts the media for spinning the news. Here's the link.
http://newsbusters.org/
Hamas' victory will be a shock to some religious leaders in the U.S.
Here's an attempt to disrupt the transmission belt of dhimmitude in the U.S.
http://www.judeo-christianalliance.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74
Steven L. - excellent post. It's excrutiating watching the news. One wonders what it would take to make them spek inglish. The agencies are tying themselves in knots with PC newspeak; "...an overly zealous stance could steer the Palestinians further away from moderation..." - but "hamas" is a literal translation of "zeal"!?
Another major annoyance - all channels report that the US and EU "still regard Hamas as a terrorist organisation", yet in the same breath stubbornly refer to them as "radicals", "hardliners" or "militants".
Worse, UK pundits keep trying to draw an analogy between the IRA and Hamas. Yep, reunification of Ireland and extermination of the Israelites are eqivalent - they're morally interchangable, there's no discernable difference between the two. We give ass to terrorists, therefore Israel should face the corner and grab her ankles.
I've found that repeatedly slamming my own head in a door-frame brings some relief. A little.
Animus Fox et al:
Good post on Melanie Phillips's website today on Hamastan, particularly debunking any similarity between the IRA and Hamas. The IRA had a political position that could be debated; Hamas does not... ...at least not the way normal human beings are able to intellectualize over an issue.
http://www.melaniephillips.com
If ever there was PROOF that Muslims aren't peaceful and that the majority of them DO support terrorism the electing of Hamas to the ruling office of the Palestinian government is it!
Hamas, a globally notorious terrorist organization, won the majority of seats in the recent Palestinian election fair and square. It won because Palestinian Muslims are very clearly in favor of terrorism and murdering non-Muslims. And that is what Hamas no doubt has in mind for its stint as the ruling party in Palestine.
I am willing to bet that the majority of Palestinians do not wish for Hamas to change. EVER.
Steven L.:
It looks like 'Honest Reporting' has a formidable amount of work cut out for them. Maybe you should think about contacting them on the news reporting issue you have described for us with regards to insidiously biased mass media coverage of Israel and Islamic terrorism.
They would probably appreciate your input.
The Victory of Hamas and the Future
The victory of Hamas in the Palestinian elections, without the renunciation of violence and the recognition of Israel to exist, opens up a significantly new vista of global change and challenge.
Driven by an Islamist agenda based on the founder father of modern Jihad, Sayyid Qutb, the Muslim brotherhood, and ideologues like Mawdudi, and having come to victory on the basis of a policy of violence, Hamas is unlikely to accede to the demands of the EU, USA, UN or Israel for a cessation of violence and the recognition of the right of Israel to exist. The latter would reverse the Islamic doctrine of sacred space, namely land once held by Muslims, can’t readily be given over to non-Muslims.
Truces and compromise are normally political expediencies in the overall Islamist struggle. As the Islamist thinker Mawdudi wrote: “The goal of Islam is to rule the whole world and submit all mankind to the faith of Islam. Any nation or power that tries to get in the way of that goal, Islam will fight and destroy. In order for Islam to fulfil that goal, Islam can use every power available every way it can be used to bring worldwide revolution. This is jihad”(1)
The consequences of a Hamas victory are likely to be:
1. A process of Islamisation of the PLO political and social structures and a diminution of the Arab nationalism of Fatah. There will be growing pressure for the introduction of full Sharia law, and in future the unlikelihood of further democratic elections being held in the Palistinian areas. (Have people so quickly forgotten the Nazis capitalising on the German elections of 1933?)
2. Jihadist movements around the world will be reinvigorated as they contemplate the unexpected transition of Hamas from violent struggle to political success. It would be naïve to dissociate Hamas from global jihad including against the West.
3. The minority Palistinian Christian population, already threatened with the jiyzrah tax , will suffer in a more obvious ways as a dhimmi people
4. A broad re-alignment of Arab and Muslim countries behind the Islamist Palestinians, leading to a growing polarisation of Muslim and non-Muslim is socio-political circles.
5. The West, having promoted “democracy as the panacea of world problems”, and having misread the situation, will be caught between their original demands to Hamas and a conciliatory approach, especially as Hamas makes small and temporary changes to appease international demands, while biding time and remaining faithful to the overall Islamist goal of world domination.
6. The masses in the West will remain as ignorant of the above as before and simply view the struggle as another political problem, with the Left as ever sympathetic of Palestinian demands as before.
(1)Mawdudi, Jihad in Islam (India 1970), quoted in Islam and Terrorism, M Gabriel, Charisma House 2002, p. 82.