"Islam's enemies want to empty our religion from its contents and its meaning. But the soldiers of God will be victorious"

OT: Since when is Mt Arafat "Islam's most sacred site"??

AP sucks.

Hmm...

Does this mean that Islam has declared holy war on us? I mean, have they declared war on us?

Hmm....

What do we do now?
Oh! What will we do?
Maybe if we send lots of money....
Maybe if we welcome them in a more hospitable environment...
Or maybe we should just

NUKE 'EM
NUKE 'EM
NUKE 'EM
NUKE 'EM

Ancestors of monkeys and pigs..." Cf. Qur'an 2:62-65, 5:59-60, and 7:166.

They don't want "Allah's", the perfect all knowing creator of the flat earth, who's wardrobe wearing sun (T-shirts in the summer, long coat for winter) sets in a muddy pond, and falls out of it's chariot (which is a misfortune) that is carried by 360 angels- bad grammer and just plain stupidity taken out of the cult's text? That's too bad.

These jihadist idiots had better re-think this.
They might be better off, and have more luck recruiting brain dead Muzzies if they had a god which was a little more convincing of actually being one.

Allah, a god who says the earth is flat, the sun sets in a muddy pond on earth, who's "messenger" is a murdering pedophile that says robbery, looting, burning down villages, raping women and enslaving their victims children is ordained for his followers.

Let's not change this. I agree with the Jihadists. Why would we want to take the nature of their rock god out of their "scripture?

a10billr,
Yes. That's certainly part of the solution.

They have a number of "most sacred sites" A friend of mine, who grew up in Lebanon, told me that most of his friends when he was growing up, were Muslims, and they warned him, in no uncertain terms, that even though they were friends, they would be obligated to kill him if his infidel feet ever stepped on any of the "most sacred sites". Nothing personal, it's just a requirement of their so-called "religion". And he also asked me to never mention his name, because since his father still lives there, if word got out that any of his offspring were defaming Islam, his life would be at risk. It is astonishing to me, that the majority of Americans, including President Bush, still fail to grasp that the religion of peace is nothing of the sort. Everything they say is a marketing ploy designed to throw the infidels off guard and trick them, pull the wool over their eyes, as they like to say. Land for peace and all that garbage.

American,

I fear Nukes are a part of the answer, but only after Islam makes a move with a nuke. Either here, Europe, or Israel.

Then watch the domestic Muslims cry and moan. Oh, boo-ho, we're being persecuted.

If they are at war with us then we are at war with them. This won't stop by them reinterpreting the Koran/Hadith. It will stop (for awhile) when they discover that being at war with us is a very bad thing for them.

All of Bush's "minority hijacking a religion of peace" shtick has failed to convince them that there is not a war going on. Unfortunately it has left many of us believing that Islam is not the cause the problem.

This won't stop by them reinterpreting the Koran/Hadith.
Posted by: Malta_1565

That statement bothers me to no end.

The Koran and hadith can't be re-interpreted", or "miss- interpreted".

It says what it says. In fact, it's against muslim law to change one word or meaning of it.

The koran is no secret book beamed down from "allah" which only illiterate Imam's can know the true meaning of.
It wasn't a book written in Arabic. Arabic was neither a written language nor a spoken one during Muhammad's life. The Koran was never written during Muhammads life at all. It's the work of very stupid, uneducated Arabs trying to make a religion out of Muhammad's sucess as a bandit. Muhammad was illiterate, he had mental fits. He has lice, flea's, he stunk, as did his filthy followers. It's written in Islamic "scripture".

Yet people are just to lazy to look at Islam's "scripture" and it's only origional text, and see it for themselves.
Muslims, being the captive, dumb, brainwashed slaves they are, are forbidden to look at Islamic "scripture". They are forbidden to think for themselves. They are forbidden to question the stupidity their allah rock has written in the kran.
And of course us "infidels", well we should be killed if we don't want to believe in that crap, subject ourselves to the rule of the Mullah Mafia.
Has a stupid muslim faithfull ever wondered why the Imam's never lead by example? Why they never blow themselves up?

This is what makes Muslims want to do Jihad in the 1st place -

Iraqi girl of nine kidnapped in front of her school, raped and left unconscious and bleeding by US troops south of Baghdad Sunday. Americans recorded as having raped 71 Iraqi children under the age of 10 in the year 2005 alone.

Translated Muhammad Abu Nasr

In a dispatch posted at 7:45pm Mecca time Sunday night, Mafkarat al-Islam reported medical sources in the city of al-Hillah, south of Baghdad, as saying hat US troops on Sunday had forcibly kidnapped and raped a nine-year-old girl, abducting her as she came out of her school after classes.

The correspondent for Mafkarat al-Islam reported a doctor in al-Hillah General Hospital who asked not to be identified as saying that the little girl was found four hours after the criminal attack, unconscious with blood all over her face and legs.

Witnesses said that the little girl Aminah (the rest of her name was not published) was standing by the door of the Umm al-Banin School just after class had let out waiting for her family to pick her up and take her home. At that moment an American patrol passed by the school and one of the soldiers kidnapped the little girl in full view of all the people in the area. The American put her in his military vehicle which was a part of the patrol.

Numerous witnesses reported that Aminah was later found in the Maqali‘ al-Hasa area near al-Hillah – an area that is also near one of the American bases.

The doctor in al-Hillah General Hospital who spoke with Mafkarat al-Islam said that he had informed correspondents for the al-‘Arabiyah satellite TV network and the puppet regime’s al-‘Iraqiyah TV network about the crime, but they were uninterested in the story, believing that running the story would get them in trouble with the US occupation authorities and the American-installed puppet regime.

Aminah’s family requested that the Mafkarat al-Islam correspondent not publish the full name or photograph of their daughter in hospital for moral reasons and Mafkarat al-Islam complied with their wishes.

The correspondent noted that the Iraqi Organization for Children had registered 71 cases of rape committed by US occupation troops against Iraqi children under the age of 10 during the year 2005 alone.

http://www.albasrah.net/ar_articles_2006/0106/eqtsb_080106.htm

Iraqi girl of nine kidnapped in front of her school, raped and left unconscious and bleeding by US troops south of Baghdad Sunday. Americans recorded as having raped 71 Iraqi children under the age of 10 in the year 2005 alone.

Translated Muhammad Abu Nasr

In a dispatch posted at 7:45pm Mecca time Sunday night, Mafkarat al-Islam reported medical sources in the city of al-Hillah, south of Baghdad, as saying hat US troops on Sunday had forcibly kidnapped and raped a nine-year-old girl, abducting her as she came out of her school after classes.

The correspondent for Mafkarat al-Islam reported a doctor in al-Hillah General Hospital who asked not to be identified as saying that the little girl was found four hours after the criminal attack, unconscious with blood all over her face and legs.

Witnesses said that the little girl Aminah (the rest of her name was not published) was standing by the door of the Umm al-Banin School just after class had let out waiting for her family to pick her up and take her home. At that moment an American patrol passed by the school and one of the soldiers kidnapped the little girl in full view of all the people in the area. The American put her in his military vehicle which was a part of the patrol.

Numerous witnesses reported that Aminah was later found in the Maqali‘ al-Hasa area near al-Hillah – an area that is also near one of the American bases.

The doctor in al-Hillah General Hospital who spoke with Mafkarat al-Islam said that he had informed correspondents for the al-‘Arabiyah satellite TV network and the puppet regime’s al-‘Iraqiyah TV network about the crime, but they were uninterested in the story, believing that running the story would get them in trouble with the US occupation authorities and the American-installed puppet regime.

Aminah’s family requested that the Mafkarat al-Islam correspondent not publish the full name or photograph of their daughter in hospital for moral reasons and Mafkarat al-Islam complied with their wishes.

The correspondent noted that the Iraqi Organization for Children had registered 71 cases of rape committed by US occupation troops against Iraqi children under the age of 10 during the year 2005 alone.

http://www.albasrah.net/ar_articles_2006/0106/eqtsb_080106.htm

a10billr,
I was actually ready to do the deed over four
years ago. Personally, I think it's long overdue.

Fizza,
Yet another mad muddled muslim maniac mulling
about? I don't believe your BS. You people are
liars. Besides, the whacko mohammad raped little
girls, so it's a bit odd that you mohammad
worshippers get riled up about this (false!)
accusation.

Fizza, you wouldn't know the truth if it bit your head off. Do you really think our press wouldn't have picked up on that and run with it for all it was worth if true? If you don't then think again.

FUZZYA

You are a typical ignorant muslim. You believe anything the a muslim tells you over anyone else. If this were true it would have been reported in the European and American news. There is no evidence that these events happened.

On the other hand there is plenty of evidence for muslims raping westerners

Gang rapes
rapes
more gang rapes
peaceful muslims rape

Eventually the west will deal with the muslim world FUZZY and it will go very badly for your kind.

"Islam's enemies want to empty our religion from its contents and its meaning."

This would be a very good thing, yes. This would be the only thing that saves this earth and its people from a nightmarish existence and eventual total destruction.

You can just imagine this hajj event over there. People being fired up with the real, down home, true blue Islam. Two million of them. Probably lots of Muslims from Western countries, with some Westernized ideas in their heads. They come back to our countries with the "real" Islam firing in their bellies. The unadulterated Islam, and any soft, wishy-washy Western ideas purged from their minds and hearts, with the pure hatred of all that is non-Islamic coursing through them. Does this make anyone else cringe and shudder like it does me?

Muslims rape young christian girls ALL the time in the Middle East. But it isnt a crime as far as they are concerned. And as far as this other so called rape how did that topic even enter this strand of forum, its off topic. However since its been brought up I dont believe it for a second. Sounds like a mussie setup to me. Just like mussie says USA targets women and children but yet mussies target and kill them by the hundreds. Im not impressed by those accusations. However if it did happen the USA WILL prosecute those soldiers. Not like the mussies when they rape christian girls and slap each other on the back and laugh about it. And the government of theirs gives a wink and nod.

Funny how when the US liberated Kuwait there weren't any reports like these.

I don't buy the rape story. Some Muslim gal at my wife's work, gave her a story of a girl in the middle east who threw a koran on the floor and was turned into some kind of animal. She had pics to go with it. Took me ten minutes on google to find that the pic had been cropped from an Australian artists display.

Muslims seem to generally lack the ability to be skeptical about anything that favors their position and engage the slightest bit of cognitive ability to recognize anything critical of it.

Those are some real dumbasses at Fizza's linked site, albasrah.net. See the photo at the top of this page (warning - profanity):

http://www.albasrah.net/warcrimes.htm

Either they believe it's a real photo, in which case they are idiots, or they know it's a doctored photo, and they just don't care. How you say.... ahh.... yes.....

TAKKIYAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's dawned on me that this place is mostly critical of Islam and the Moslem.

To be fair, shouldn't half the comments be pro-Islam and half be anti-Islam? Wouldn't a fifty-fifty split be fairest?

ALWAYS ANGRY ALWAYS AGGRIEVED ALWAYS BITTER ALWAYS MOSLEM ALWAYS

Either every issue you must divide by two
Out of deep respect your local hate laws
Or the Moslems will come and get you
To muzzle your Islamophobia, and make you pause

"Islam's enemies want to empty our religion from its contents and its meaning."

Its a way to see it, not too far from the truth. What I think will happen, what I hope will happen is that, over the years, the West does with Islam what it has done with Christianity.

This is, for me, the best outcome. To liberalize that religion.

Of course, I do know that, unlike Christianity, Islam is militant, it isnt OUR religion so we dont have any direct control over it (altough, according to our demographics, Islam is part of the West's pathcwork of culturs), and, well, there is no active pressure to actualy westernize Islam. There is a form of pressure, but it is indirect, passive.

Fizzy-

Sounds like somebody following the tenets of Mohammad (who raped a 9 year old girl himself, named Ayesha), so why not check to see if these rapists weren't Muslims forming a p.r. Fifth Column while in stolen Coalition uniforms.

But, of course I'm joking. Your story rings as false as the entire Koran (the world's biggest example of plagiasm in history).

The anti-American world press, beginning with the New York Times, would have had this as cover story for a year if it were even remotely suspected to be true.

There have been rapes in every Army, and at all times, most recently among the U.S.'s troops stationed in Korea, but what might be the acts of a criminal in one army is the 'normal' recommendation from The Holy Rulebook in Islam:

-all infidels need to be subjugated or killed.

The captured non-Muslim women can be raped at will, as a matter of 'war booty', as Mohammad himself raped his victims (even forcing one, whose husband he killed in battle that very same day, into a mock "marriage" to 'sanctify' his repulsive crime).

Worry about your own soul and the soul of your cult.

If anyone raped a kid in Iraq from the Coalition forces, they will go to prison for a hell of a long time and be condemned by one and all in the civilized Western world.

Islam, meanwhile, cheers on such "anti-infidel retribution" and pedophilic monstrosities, and makes "marrying" 9 years old "legal" under Shariah Law.

Oh, a final benediction for you Fizzy-

Go piss up a rope and then take a flying f*ck at a rolling donut, numbnut.

Hehe, it's the cheapest, crudest type of propaganda only the most disordered(and desperate) mind would buy in to.
---
Of course I would'nt be surprised to see it repeated at the World Workers Party website, or "Code-pink" also.
Maybe at "anti-war.com" too.
__

Screw the double-talking sheik-- he's scared. Very scared. Confused too. Sux to be him.

I thought Fizz Ya was joking with that comment. Are you sure he takes it seriously? Come on, no one is that stupid. It's not like they believe in giant spiders killing Americans or something.

Empty Islam of hate, murder, conquest, and sex perversion and you're left with an empty Cheerios box with a picture of Caliph Osama on the front, a few roaches still inside the box, licking what grain dust remains.

While the Muslims flatter themselves (amidst their typical delusions of grandeur) as being "soldiers of God," Satan, who they truly and unwittingly work for, must be in his lair in some parallel dimension looking down at these pathetic ex-humans and having the laugh of his existence ('life' for Satan would be too strong a word we think).

I would love to see and hear Satan's laughter at these "soldiers of God" !!

If a terrorist attack resulted in a nuclear explosion in the US, the US has indicated it would respond with such weapons in kind. Against whom you might be asking yourself? Well, Iran for starters.

Pentagon Pulls Draft That Discusses Pre-Emptive Use Of Nukes From Website
http://www.spacewar.com/news/nuclear-doctrine-05zzh.html

WMD threat could spark American nuclear strike
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-1776250,00.html

Kafir Nonbeliever,
I missed that stuff, thanks for the links.
========

Hey Elliot, glad to see ya still hanging around.

hey Fizzi, aka Fuzzy, your brain is on fire! dont you think the stupid leftist media, UCLA, EU, UN would be on that story if any of it were true..geesh you guys lie so much is part of your heritage!!

Bomb all major and medium-size Moslem cities from Morroco to Indonesia.

PORK MEALS FOR MOSLEMS PORK HEALS OUR MOSLEMS PORK KEELS THE MOSLEMS

Encircle the EU and embargo all trade until they move their Moslems back down across Gilbraltar. Then re-bomb North Africa as the Embargoed Moslems walk from west to east across the burning sands.

Repeat as necessary.

"If a terrorist attack resulted in a nuclear explosion in the US, the US has indicated it would respond with such weapons in kind. Against whom you might be asking yourself? Well, Iran for starters."

This is lame. You don't win by playing defense,
you deliver a nuclear haymaker straight into the
heart of the enemy territory BEFORE we get hit.

I should think after 9/11 that we'd have gotten
the message about how the game was going to be
played, but I guess we are slow.

And yes, of course, emptying the death cult of
it's meaning is a good thing, nothing to be
ashamed of.

The answer is be agressive back at them.

Take Israel, does Israel cowar in fear and retreat everytime it is threatened with terrorism or accussed of racism?

NO

Does Greece surrender the Islands Turkey wants, and abandon it's rights to the Aegean just because the Turks accuse Greece of being in a Crusade mode?

Hell no

Hell even Armenia knows to agressively defend itself, and Armenia has even less then Israel does (Israel has twice the population of Armenia, yet Armenia like Israel knows to be agressive when dealing with Jihadis).

Perhaps what other members of the Dar al Harb need is to have at least one Jihadist Nieghbour, perhaps that will provide them with the common sense in Armenia, Greece and Israel.

Kafir I disagree with you, the real way to deal with muslims in the West is to censor the Quran.

You know the way the Soviets would censor everybody's mail, censor the Quran, replace every line that incites to Jihad/Hate/Superiority etc etc etc etc with Allahu Akbar, or Love thine country.

That oaught to deal with some Muslims, and prevent Qurans that aren't censored from entering the West.

I am surprised nobody thought of this untill just now.

I will repeat.

Censor the Quran.

“I fear Nukes are a part of the answer ”

Suicide bombers could blow themselves up in american and a10billr. That way, we would get rid of both kinda shits.

“Yet another mad muddled muslim maniac mulling
about? I don't believe your BS. You people are
liars.”

Funny you say that considering it was your government who lied about the WMD to justify the Irak invasion.

“Fizza, you wouldn't know the truth if it bit your head off. Do you really think our press wouldn't have picked up on that and run with it for all it was worth if true? If you don't then think again. “

Of course they don’t, who wouldn’t be ashamed to show raping of women and little girls by their own soldiers??? This is way worse than Abu Graib rape parties. You are so believing you are best than anyone else, while accusing us from crimes yourserlves commit... you are pathetic.

Do you really think that when your soldiers torture and abuse male prisoners, they won’t do it on women???

But you are right, it's so much more confortable to deny the truth while accusing others.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=HAS20050506&articleId=158

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=12&ItemID=5653

http://www.aztlan.net/nineyearoldrapevictim.htm

http://newstandardnews.net/content/?
action=show_item&itemid=1029
http://www.akbayan.org/post-eta110705.htm

http://www.stlimc.org/newswire/display/698

“you know I’m just back from Iraq and I’m acting a little crazy… in Iraq we can do whatever. You think they put all that shit on the news? Man ask anybody we rape those bitches over there and we take their men and blow their brains out just like that and nobody ever knows.”

http://www.historiansagainstwar.org/resources/torture/cox.html

http://www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/iraq/092304_abuse.htm

These articles contain links that are not “invented” or “lies”, but that can be verified

Do you need more?

Ispanan:

Out of the two million documents seized by Coalition troops following the invasion, only about 50,000 have been translated, and many fewer still have been released for public consumption because of the way the media has destorted those documents that have been released. Although most of the world, like you, wishes to remain in a state of denial about the monsterous nature of Saddam's regime, there has already been ample evidence provided to indicate that he was doing everything he could to get back into
WMD production the second the "coast was clear" and that he was a significant sponsor of Islamic terrorist conferences and training camps. It's the spin doctors of the anti-interventionist mindset who refuse to connect the dots.

Twenty years from now, people will look back at the incredible state of denial that the likes of you are currently promoting and ask what didn't people learn from WW II when it comes to despotic totalitarian tyrants.

Ah, Ispanan provides us with some more sophisticated propaganda, how nice. Funny how I KNOW I could trace all this garbage to either Al-Queda, the I.J., Hamas etc, OR SOME COMMUNIST SLIME WHO SHOULD BE EXTERMINATED TOO.
But then there are the "USEFUL IDIOTS" what to do about them???
A famous quote comes to mind:"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".

I can "love my enemy" and still kill him. Not that I feel compelled to love him/it. Or that I actually do. Actually, it can be focused on a "love" for humanity-- and the elimination of a part of it that is an incurable cancer to the whole-- THAT IS LOVE TOO.

"Hey Elliot, glad to see ya still hanging around."
Posted by: kentim

Thanks. Jihadwatch is the place to go for me, when I miss being called a communist liberal, or an under-cover schizophrenic muslim. =P

As for Ispana, I dont see whats the big deal about her. She's basicaly saying that american soldiers sometime commit atrocities and crimes in an occupation situation. Well, no shit Ispana, thanks for telling us that there is no such thing as a clean war as if we had no notion of history. If you take away 150 000 young males, put them in control of the most sophiticated military in the world, and ship them to a wrecked, derelic region to fight psychopathics fundamentalists for a living, I think that everyone can agree that a few bad apples are bound to commit atrocities, to rape and steal. There never was a clean war, and there will never be one.
Everyone can agree with that, that America's military is no exception to the rule. Colateral damages are bound to happen.

Of course, to balance the picture, we can also agree that the US army as quasi pathological fixation on limiting casualities and scandals. A soldier or a civilian dies, and you hear it around the world. The americans dont spend billions after billions of dollars on non-lethal and precise military technology because its actualy more efficient. More and bigger tanks and gunships would do the same job for less trouble. No, the americans are the first nation who's military are focusing intensively on limiting casualities to actualy win the minds and hearts of both its ennemies and allies. They're the first nation who has to deal, and successfully managed to deal, with an ultra-sensitive world opinion.

The europeans, back in the days when they actualy had a military, were free to commit genocides abroad because their population didnt knew better or they didnt cared. As for the russians, when they tried to win the heart and minds of the people, it was at the point of a Kalashnikov. Imperial Japan wasn't any better. Indeed, we can all agree that America as the cleanest, most precise and most scrutinized military in the world. They slip and everyone will know, because everyone's watching. And they dont slip often, because they try not to.

Of course, that doesn't mean shit never happens. As I said above, militaries are bound to commit atrocities. If you'd send me to a hellhole war-torn country at a time where I'd be supposed to enjoy life, with nothing but higly sophisticated weaponry to express myself, I dont know how I'd react.
But the fact that shit happens nevertheless within the american military, and the fact that they went there on the ground of lies, incompetant intelligence and naivety, certainly doesn't justify the atrocities the muslims commit on their own people, like Ispanan would like to suggest. I wont argue against the facts that Ispana brought to us. She seem to be backed with important and scary sounding links to big credible websites, so I'll take her words for it. But in the end, there is no cause to effect relation between what muslims do, and always did, to their own people, and the occasional american abuse. Nobody can absolve their sins in the blood of others. This is a psychological disorder called projection. And I call it iresponsability.

War against our creed...

The muslim Creed ... is defined as

Kill the Jews
Kill the Infidels
Kill the Christians
Kill all non muslims

Behead the infidel dogs...
Blow up the schools
Rape the Children...
Rape the women en mass...
Destroy the countries of the world..

Until the Black flag of Islam enslaves all of mankind...

Gee i cant see why everyone just doesnt jump right in and become muslim...

Mount Arafat? Figures, a mountain named after a terrorist.But if we're trying to "empty Islam" why are so many Muslims trying to get over here? We're the "great Satan". We're infidels, pigs, dogs, and monkeys. Seems to me that Islam is doing that all by itself. An idol god, a false prophet that was a pedophile, and a "holy book" full of decres of a sick man who would make up things as he went along, such as forcing his stepson to divorce his wife so that the "prophet of Allah" could have sex with her. And then claim that they were inspired by this same idol god. Empty Islam? Seems to me Islam is still full of it. Allah be praised!!!

Elliot:

Presuming that Ispana's weblinks were to authoritative and scholarly sites is assuming a great deal, especially when one of them is named "historiansagainstwar" or something to that effect. "zmag" is another notorious Chomskyite organization.

I do however, agree with your larger point. It is absurd for Ispana to rationalize the violence being purpetrated in various parts of the Muslim world, Iraq in particular, to the occupying forces. I just read somewhere, today, that the parents of the so-called "California bomber" who murdered 120 Iraqis seeking medical attention in a hospital in Hilla in Feb. 2005 thought their son, who received a martyr's wedding, had killed "Americans".

Oh, I haven't even checked the links, they dont matter. Weither little girls are being raped or not is beyond the point. After all, this is a war, and abuse comming from the americans are bound to happens. Everyone knows that, nobody is in denial on that point, therefore, there's no need to quibble over the age of the victimes or other details. We know they exist. Only her main point matters, and that's her trying to project and excuse/explain muslims violence on the american effort to rebuild Irak, and it doesn't make sense. Things are just not that simple.

People who do that, chompskyites, are just like white supremacists, fundamentalists and marxist: they take a point of view, and stick to it to the extrems, ignoring how twisted, pathetic and pervers the end result looks like.

Anyway, this is how I interpret the whole matter, and I may be wrong.

Ispanan,

zmag, historiansagainstwar, aztlna.net, etc., etc.
What a bunch of BS. None of them look real.

You're still a lying little mobot. Tell me, did
big mo consummate his marriage with a nine year old
girl?

I'm a guy...

Never I said that the atrocities committed by American soldiers justified the terrorist acts on civilians, you are making this up. Yes I recognize Muslims commit unjustified crimes. Next time read better before opening your smart mouth. I posted these links to show that Americans also commit the crimes they blame on Muslims. Nobody is innocent, less the Americans.

I'm glad you recognize that your soldiers can commit these crimes as well, but then you shouldn't be too surprised that even if you want to show them how good you are, Irakis don't like you too much, right? And don't come again with this "they kill their own people" thing. There are many differents insurgents, some are terrorists, some others target the american or Irakis soldiers. I don't justify any of them, but I understand them. Do you expect someone who lost his children just do nothing because the American army said him: "oops, we didn't want to happen"? In these situations, it is THOSE people who can go crazy.

And I wonder, what criteria do you use to say America has the cleanest military of the world, and the Muslim crimes are "nothing compared to the ocasional abuse" committed by Americans? Is this the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Vietnam war and agent orange? Depleted uranium bombs, who even affected some of your own soldiers and provoked cancers and birth deformities in Irak population? White phosphorus used in Falluyah? the 100 000 civilians deaths of the Irak invasion? Torture ordered or at least tolerated by officials? Is that clean? Then what would be "dirty" be???

You seem to be more moderate than the others, but you actually are the same: you try to excuse the crimes committed by your soldiers saying they just "go mad" and ignore the involvment of the high spheres who never went into a battlefield, never "went mad".

Just get your head out of your ass. Who ordered the embargo on Iraq population who killed 1.5 million people, most of them children? Some mad American soldier? Or the representatives of a democratic elected government? Was this a minor abuse? Your country caused the death of more than one million Irakis and it was not during a situation of war when a bomb get out of this way, but a planified and intentional genocide, as embargo who afect civil population is termed as genocide. Meanwhile the deaths of the 9/11 were 6000. Do that seem you banal? Who is the worst terrorist here?

And I'm only talking of Irak. Occidental governments have a long record of atrocities (or support of atrocities) committed all over the world.

Apparently you still refuse that many of your representants (and the ones of you that support them)proved to be the same kind of trash that bin laden and his group, altough with a difference: the deaths provoked by al qaeda are "horrible acts of terrorism" while the crimes committed by occidental democracies are "colateral dammage".

Begin to see the point?

"Ah, Ispanan provides us with some more sophisticated propaganda, how nice. Funny how I KNOW I could trace all this garbage to either Al-Queda, the I.J., Hamas etc, OR SOME COMMUNIST SLIME WHO SHOULD BE EXTERMINATED TOO."

I have a question for you and the rest of the people who talk about killing Muslims, bomb Mecca etc... why do you not do it yourself? I mean, why are you sitting here talking about it but not actually doing something about it? Why are you sitting your fat arse on a chair wasting your time writing on this site instead of joining the army to go fight the terrorists?

It is you are too coward to precisely do something else? Is that while you can safely write all these things on the Internet you would wet your pants at the sole thought of being sent to an actual war? Is that you are too much of a human waste to do anything else than to say how you want to "nuke" them, while you would never dare to say it in front of one of them?

profitsbeard, your article was excellent, it was something like what I was going to say, but you spoilt your wonderful post by the last bit...that is not to say that I dont feel angry enough to want to say some such things myself...but...These poor people are totally being blinded by what they are being taught,,, and they think we are being blinded. We must not blame the individual, even though they are being build up with hatred to come against us when the time is right, and their numbers have grown enough in the west.
I am thrilled with the intellect of most of the posts on this site. Not many say degrading things, most just talk common sense.. it is the common sense which will help the intellegent Muslim to realise that something is wrong with their religion, not the degrading remarks... there is no other religion on this earth which has writings in it which say to destroy those who wont believe... All religions have at times done things wrong, but if they followed what their books said, there would not be any wars.

I'm not an american, I'm french. And by judging how you used the word "Occidental government" insteed of Western government, I'd say you're not english either. Anglo-saxons rarely use that form. =)

"I don't justify any of them, but I understand them. Do you expect someone who lost his children just do nothing because the American army said him: "oops, we didn't want to happen"? In these situations, it is THOSE people who can go crazy."

Ah, indeed you are right. There is a huge difference between excusing a wrong and merely explaining it for better understanding. When you said "Do you really think that when your soldiers torture and abuse male prisoners, they won’t do it on women???" I thought the "they" standed for muslims. I thought your tried to make a link between american abuses and muslim abuses. My bad.

Then again, I never excused any crimes myself, I merely try to put them in perspective. As for the absolution of the involvement of anybody ranking higher than dirt in the prison torture scandals, I certainly can't explain that one either. Anybody can say patronage and corruption within the american government? I certainly can.

As for the rest...

I can affirme that american military doctrine is both cleaner and more efficient that any other military in the world. Western military doctrine relies heavily on technology, the use of a well-trained and empowered NCO cadre, and superior information processing and dissemination to provide a level of battlefield awareness that opponents cannot match. Its advantages are extreme flexibility, extreme lethality, and a focus on removing an opponent's C3I (command, communications, control, and intelligence) to paralyze and incapacitate rather than destroying their combat power directly (hopefully saving lives in the process).
This doctrine was born as an answer to the development of a sensitive, informed and powerful public opinion following the Viet-Nam War, and was exemplified during the first Gulf War. Therefore, any exemple pre-dating 1991 to prove your point aren't valide, because we're not talking about the same military doctrine anymore. It changes everything.

So basicaly, the americans go trough massive efforts of time and money and ressource to save lives on every side of the conflict. So, do you know what I'd qualify as a dirty war? Any military fighting practiced by any nations other than the West, or any war that doesn't discriminate between civilians and military personel.

As for depleated uranium shells, well, I aint going to defend that. When I heard of it, I thought it was the stuff of scifie vilains, I couldn't believe it myself.

I'd like reliable data on the civilians casualties, 100 K sounds like a gross exageration.

As for the torture question, you're asking me to weight security and victory versus our Geneva Convention. This is actualy a though one, but in the end, I'm sorry, but unless you happen to be one of the people in charge of protecting the lives of their citizens, you have zero perspective to juge which one is more important, and as such, I dont think your opinion, or anyone else's opinion here, is worth much.

Then again, the people being tortured being the ennemy, and their torture giving us the hope of saving innocent lives, this doesn't seem like a difficult dicision to me. Then again, trading security for our values sounds like a deal with the devil...
Then again, I've heard that many claim to torture where actualy merely psycological torture, harming the self-easteme of the individuals and his beliefs. I can fully endorse such practice.

As for the embargo, that was a dumb plan made by dumb people. Not evil ones.

As for the rest, its merely ethno-masochism of the most basic kind. Yeah, the West did this and that, true, but I could also reply that other societies did this and that, which would also be true, and since there are no balance big enough to weight so much bodies, the question is banckrupt and not constructive. There is no positive use for cultural culpability. Should we deal with modern North Africa while remembering the terror Carthage caused in Europe? Thats just stupid.

And if you ever use the term "worst terrorist" again, I'm never adressing you. There are no "good" terrorists, and there are no freedom fighters either. Only desesperate people commiting desesperate and inexcusable acts.

Well did anybody agree with my idea that the answer to the Muslim Question here in the West is to CENSOR THE QURAN?

I am against censorship in everything EXCEPT FOR the Quran.

Whenever it incites to Jihad, violence, rape, or abuse of women the line should be censored and replaces with something like "There is no greater love then love for your country.", or "blessed are the jews who as Gods chosen people did God's will, and provided the Virgin Marry to bear Gods own son Jessus.", or maybe "Anyone who rapes a nine year old girl is destined to burn in hell for all eternity", or "There is niether man nor woman, jew nor greek, Gaul or Roman before God for God hath created all humanity equal to one another wether man woman jew or any other".

So what do you think of my idea?

Shouldn't we have to censor the old testament then?

Yeah,yeah, Ispanan,bla-bla-bla.
The military is too picky, they don't like taking in convicted felons.
But trust me, I'm trying to figure out what to do about the enemy within. Death dos'nt scare me.

"It is you are too coward to do precisely something else? (sic) ...you would wet your pants at the sole thought of being sent to an actual war?" posted by Ispanan.

I am reminded Ispanan of that old joke from the 1967 Arab Israli war:

How many gears on an Arab tank?

Four - Three in reverse and one in forward in case the enemy attacks from the rear.

Muslims say "Amen"?

As much as you won't adress me anymore if I do, I will repeat it: America governments alone are worst terrorists than bin laden and his gang could ever hope to be. Even worse, the terrorists do not represent any legal government elected by the majority, while America government do; the terrorists are criminals; the others are democratic leaders. However those last ones have provoked more intentional deaths of innocents than the terrorists.

What exactly is the difference?

The people who ordered the embargo were "dumb people"? What, they weren't aware of what the were doing? They weren't able to see the consequences? What exactly are you trying to say here?

When Madeleine Albright said in a 1996 talk show, when she was presented the number of 500 000 Irakis children under five dead because of the embargo and she said "we think the price is worth it", was she merely dumb? What kind of people could think the death of half a million children is "worth" something? What is the difference between her and bin laden saying the 9/11 6000 deaths were "worth it"?

When the much celebrated Reagan threatened to veto any sanctions against Sadam as he was gasing Kurd and Iranian villages with the WMD the Western nations gave him, was he also "dumb"?

You have a big problem (and I'm talking about people in this forum in general): you have a double standard when evalutating what a crimes is. While you condem the islamic terrorist acts as unjustified, you see your own as justified, or inevitable for a "greater" good. But then so does Bin Laden: he justifies his acts for a "greater good". Neither of them is right, even though they need to believe it to be in peace with their conscience.

No one is better than the other, get it in your head once and for all. The only difference is the governments and those who vote for them don't do the dirty work themselves, while terrorists do. Once you understand that and begin to demand the responsables of these acts to assume their responsabilities as you do for the terrorists, your condemnations of islamist terrorism will be much more credible.

So you think torture is justified and necesary to save innocent lives? Well then I guess you won't condemn the hostage takings by the insurgency, since they seek to use the hostages to demand the withdrawal of the US troops, so they won't have to fight them and waste more lives! Or they consider them as "spies" just as US troops suspect the tortured prisoners as terrorists. But anyway, I have seen the Abu Graib pìcs, and it didn't seem to me by looking at their faces the American soldiers were very concerned with "saving lives"; rather it seemed -but I could be wrong- they were enjoying it. And allow me also to have doubts that the torture made in other parts of Irak was primarily intended to "save lives".

You are right in one thing, though: nobody who hasn't been in the Irak situation can come and tell if it is justified or not. So maybe you should take a tour to Irak prisons and let these concerned American boys apply you their lives-saving methods. Then you could come back and tell us if you still justify it.

Saddam was responsible for the sanctions, it was the Iraqi's and/or the muslim world's responsibility to remove Saddam, if they really gave a sh-t about all those highly exagerated deaths.

Where was the brave "insurgency" when Saddam was in power???????
Saddam was a "good" guy????? Is that why????

Ah, yes, then the liar will go off and say "he was better than the American puppets"....bla-bla-bla...(endlessly).
You read too much Chomsky, or is it BinLaden?

You think you know it all, Ispanan, you think you've got it all figured out, and to support that idea of SUPERIORITY all you do is search for anything that supports your viewpoint, and totally dismiss anything that might challenge it.
Facts, truth, and reality be damned.
This is obvious.

Of course you will accuse me of the same, although I am confident my postings would prove otherwise to objective people.

"Saddam was responsible for the sanctions, it was the Iraqi's and/or the muslim world's responsibility to remove Saddam, if they really gave a sh-t about all those highly exagerated deaths."

Who was responsible for the sanctions? Sadam, or the ones who established them? Who killed the 1.5 million Iraki people? Sadam or someone else?

Muslim's world responsibility? But aren't you telling all day how bad the Muslims are? Then what do you expect from them? Or are you COMPARING your country to them??? Are you saying that because the Muslims didn't remove Sadam, you had to kill 1.5 million people?

Of course he was suspected of having WMD, everyone knows who gave them to him. But then wasn't it YOUR responsibility to remove him if you cared so much for the weapons, instead of starving Irak for +10 years?

"Where was the brave "insurgency" when Saddam was in power???????"

Well, it's very simple: there were uprisings against Sadam after the Gulf war. the US, who had incitated the Kurds and the Shia to rebel against Sadam, did nothing to help them. And so Sadam crushed the "insurgency" and gazed Shia and Kurd civilians because of your invaluable help. That is "where" the insurgency was.

The 1.5 million dead are not mine, it's Albreight herself who recognized this number. But if you have a different number, then by all means bring it forth.

The nazis killed 6 million Jews. You killed 1.5 million Irakis by starving them. You were better, you killed 4 times less. Are you proud of it?

"But aren't you telling all day how bad the Muslims are?"

Nothing could be further from the truth -- All day we're simply allowing Muslims such as yourself to illustrate for the world how muddle brained they are, and how evil... Your posts are a great example of the muddle brained aspect of the Muslim mind, and Saddam Hussein's heartless murder of staggering numbers of Iraqis under the pretext of the sanctions is a splendid example of how evil the Muslim is... Another example of the latter? The virtual silence on the part of all of Mr. Hussein's Muslim neighbors during this period... The only people Muslims hate more than each other, is everybody else...

And one final point -- the endless tendency for Muslims to blame every atrocity they commit, for every crime they commit, and for every mistake they make on America, the Jews, or "infidels" in general, as your posts relentlessly do, is so tiresome -- But that's what we're here for -- all day -- to allow you to illustrate for the entire world what a backward ignorant bunch of whiney malignant anti-social liars and hypocrites Muslim really are...

Ispanan -- thanks for all you do -- all day... It doesn't go unnoticed!

You keep, yet again, blaming Sadam for the genocide your governments. You also keep implying how evil Sadam was -which I agree- but then, WHY DID YOU SUPPORT HIM PRIOR TO GULF WAR? Or do you deny this? Do you deny you provided him with these chemical weapons? Come on, tell me something funny, like it was only France who gave them to him.

You also blame the "silence" of the Muslim nations about what? About your embargo? Do you blame their silence, but not your government's genocide?

You must be as stupid as these republicans who changed the name "French fries" to "Freedom fries" because they were angered France didn't support their war against Irak. You experience a very known psychological disorder: DENIAL. You blame on Sadam the crimes your own government committed -equal or worse than those of Sadam-, because the truth is too painful to accept.

You look like the nazis and the white supremacists who are persuaded they are right and can't understand how the rest -everyone but them- is so wrong. This is exactly what happens to you: in your delusion you firmly believe you are right, while those who don't agree are either Muslims, liberals or in general "dhimmis".

Never anybody who is normal will ever listen to the deranged ideas I have seen posted in this site... If you are expecting it, just... forget it.

Jsla -- thanks for all you do -- all day... but it DOES go unnoticed :)