Muslim youths rampage on French train

God, the non-Muslims must be soft in France. How come 600 pasengers couldn't overwhelm 20 - 40 of these Muslim yobs and beat them all to pulps. Yep, the Muslims have power, even when they're outnumbered anywhere between 15 and 30 to one.

Bring back the guillotine!

They need 2 or 3 guys(or gals) like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

Trouble is American, the guillotine will be viewed by Muslims as mechanised headchopping. They're almost in control of France now. When 600 passengers couldn't take out 24 of these thugs, and probably at least 500 or 550 of them merely stood on the sidelines, it says everything about the indifference, complacency and lack of willpower which paralyses that country and its resident non-Muslim population. And why did the Clouseau-like police let them escape by pulling the emergency stop? They should have been teargassing them, put on the steel bracelets, pretended they were the England football supporters of 1998, and beat them to a pulp. No wonder France's Muslim population think France is weak. Its time the French Army rounded up the Muslim population at gunpoint and shipped them out to Algeria, Morocco or whatever craphole they came from - all six million of them - it'll be far cheaper than keeping them on the dole and paying for the wreckage they cause, it will dramatically improve the quality of life for non-Muslims and make their cities infinitely safer. Yep, its long past time for the Benes-Masarsky solution in France.

This is good stuff -- In their arrogance, and given the fact that Muslims will never truly assimilate into pluralistic secular democracies, isn't it better to see the true face of Islam before it's utterly too late to retaliate against them? The most scary prospect for me is the notion that a sufficient number of Muslim dissemblers continue the charade that Islam is peaceful, and that no argument exists between the values of Muslims and the values of the West... If Westerners continue to fall for these deceptions, WE ARE DOOMED!

Allowed to continue their slow dismantling of our rights, the insidious erosion of our institutions, and the destruction of our cultural and religious foundations, it is only a matter of time before Muslims emerge triumphant over us... Already they have harmed and tainted our nations by their presence... Already we have paid too high a price for the pleasure of hosting them on our soil...

If the nightmarish nature of Islamic regimes hasn't illustrated clearly to Westerners that we're dealing with a cancerous culture in Islam, and if atrocities such as 9/11 and Beslan haven't shocked our fellow citizens into seeing with open eyes what kind of hellish ideology the Muslim embraces, then our only hope is to see them continue to maim, destroy, and violate our rules and sensiblities until we are sufficiently convinced that they are our enemies every one... Perhaps only then we will act -- and hopefully the realization won't come too late...

Let them rampage. Let them rape. Let them bomb.... It's the only way for our tolerant patient Western polity to finally recognize the poison we have imbibed by allowing Muslims into our domain... I now believe that nothing short of complete Muslim expulsions will "solve" our immediate "problem" with Muslims and Islam...

Muslims have had plenty of time to show us any hint that they are willing and able to contend with and confront the malignancies which are rife in their religion, and their various "Islamic" cultures... We wait in vain! Where are the signs of "reformation"? Where are the signs that they are with us and against the "extremists" in their midst. I DON'T SEE IT!

With every whiny pronouncement of victimology at our hands, with every law suit they file, with every moral equivalence argument they present which explains away their abominable acts of hatred, intolerance, and barbarity -- the collective Muslim umma indicts itself, and reveals itself for the vile eating machine that it is...

Islam -- destroyer of worlds -- sewer of mankind...

You reap what you sow. The Muslims have been emboldened by the weak response by the French government to the Muslim rioting that was allowed to go on for weeks. The French should have sent the military in during the first days of rioting, a dozen rioters should have been shot to send the message that lawlessness would not be tolerated.One of the first things the military did after entering New Orleans last summer was to kill six armed looters.Guess what,after the shootings looting and lawlessness was quickly brought under control in New Orleans.

La Marseillaise, the French national anthem, anticipates this when it sings:

" Ils viennent jusque dans nos bras
Egorger vos fils,
vos compagnes.

Aux armes citoyens!
Formez vos bataillons,
Marchons, marchons!
Qu'un sang impur
Abreuve nos sillons.

They come right into our arms
To cut the throats of your sons,
your country.

To arms, citizens!
Form up your battalions
Let us march, Let us march!
That their impure blood
Should water our fields."

Do you guys realize how much Hitler has helped the Marxists and the Islamics?
Or how Pragmatism/relavitism/moral equivilence( the ultimate con-artist's philosophy) appeases/supports all three?

The odds are stacked against us.

This is sad but inevitable...

As fiordman reported...
in some places women are raped by gangs of muslims in broad dailight...

When will the MEN in this world..

Stand up and start Kicking some ass...

Except for the USA and its military

The Brits and their military

the Auziees and their soldiers

Everyone seems to be rolling over and bending over
resigned to the facts that

"If your going to be raped anyway you might as well enjoy it.."

As one congressman joked and was nearly hung for just suggesting this...

but folks it is Happening right now and
it seems to me no one is standing up and taking these islamic pigs out to the cleaners..

I'd like them to have tried that on a train going to Cronulla.

FRANCE 2 ( the originators of the ALDURA blood libels)
Peu avant l'arrivée en gare à Marseille, dans la confusion générale, la plupart des jeunes encore à bord parviennent à s'échapper. Ils tirent le signal d'alarme et s'enfuient sur les voies, au péril de leur vie.
"they risked their lives on the electric tracks running away from the Police"!
Had they been electrocuted another 10,000 cars would have been trashed throughout france!

Three gendarmes arrive. They have to wait an hour and a half for a formal complaint by the SNCF before they could board the train.
Meanwhile the youths of ME appearance carry on the terrorising,plunder and attempted rape.
And of course according to Le Monde,these victims of French racism can do no wrong.
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3226,36-727419@51-629717,0.html

Where can I see the video of this surely someone captured this on camera with all the Arabs violating the French where????

Of course, these incidents directly stem from jihadist ideology. There are explicits verses in the Quran who orders the believers train ransacking, raping, and bank robbering. These people were not delinquents, but true Muslims, who have devoted their lives to the strict study of Islamic texts and are well acqainted in jihadist ideology. They most certainly don't go to school, surely don't know to read or write, but know Islam in and out, this is obviously their first concern in life. They didn't rape and steal because they were delinquents, but because they were Muslims. Crimes are alway committed by Muslims, this is a known fact.

/sarcasm off

The compulsive habit that Islamophobes have to blame anything on Islam will never cease to intrigate me. For you, everything is Islam fault. If a North African commits rape and you are told it is because of Islam, you believe it. If Indonesia invades Timor and you are told this is because of Islam, even though anyone else can see it has nothing to do with religion, you believe it. If there is riots in France and you are told this is because of Islam, you believe it, even though many of the rioters were french of portuguese immigrants; if a North African robs you and you are told it is because of Islam, you believe it; if you fart and you are told it is because of Islam, you believe it.

And the most funny thing is you think you will achieve something good like that. Then you are amazed by the level of "brainwashing" and "dimmitude" that all the world but you are in. Tell me, what do you epect with this? Do you really expect the Western World to "wake up"? Do you honestly think you have a chance of success? Do you think that you can "tell the truth" to the Muslims about their religion, and that at the same moment terrorism will milagrously stop? Do people like Sheik yer mami and Hugh Fitzgerald really think that the majority of the western people will accord any credibility to people who advocate for internment and deportation of Muslims? Is that the intelectual elite who will save Occident from jihad?

Your "cause" has failed since the beginning. All the time spreading biased visions of Islam, all the time despising Muslims, all the time showing your ignorance and fear in your comments, all the money you sent to help this site is wasted. But you will only realize it later, when Islam becomes the world's largest religion and everything you predicted will not happen.

Ispanan-

Lern too tipe yew imbeseal.

Yore arogint stewpiditty intregates mi.

I tink yer brane haz milagrously stopped werking.

Moist bee thuh rezult uf tha Qwu'ran?

And an Inshallah-di-da to you too, ziphead.

The compulsive habit that Islamophobes have to blame anything on Islam will never cease to intrigate me.

Yea Ispanan, right on! All the people on this website do not even know why they are angry or worried. There strong opinions are completely baseless and are fueled by racism. They are actually afraid that if people of Middle-Eastern descent enter their country they immediately want to censure everything. They should be scared about such things because they are the root of all evil with their charging interest for trade, allowing alcohol, sexual promiscuity, and on and on and on. This country and society are SICK, and the justice of Islam is the cure to this sickness..

sarcasm/off

You obviously do not believe in anything the revolutionaries of America died for and what our young countrymen are now dying for because of the despicable and cowardly actions of a "minority" of Muslims.

So what if these same cowards justify their actions with AMPLE evidence from their holy book and other sources, what does that matter?

You may be right with the Islamic ideology ruling peoples minds, but the people who believe in LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS will shed their blood fighting those who want to replace that with DEATH, TYRANNY, AND THE PURSUIT OF CARNAGE..

WE, THE BARBARIANS OF THE RELIGION OF ISLAM, BELIEVE THAT ALL BARBARIANS LIKE OURSELVES ARE ENDOWED WITH CERTAIN RIGHTS BY THEIR CREATOR TO WHIP DRUNKS BLOODY, STONE ADULTERERS, ELIMINATE ALL ENEMIES, REMOVE ALL LAUGHTER, AND FIGHT AND WREAK HAVOC OVER ALL THE EARTH UNTIL EVERYTHING IS JUST LIKE US...

I guess the police and the passengers acted according to the rules of multiculturalism , otherwise they would have been called racists and islamophobes by the French media. To the Muslim thugs they acted like good behaving dhimmies, with passivity.

Ispanan,

Look at all the bombings, beheadings, and gang rapes that Muslims use Islam to justfy. We had a saying when I was in the Army: "Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is enemy action."

"Ispanan" looks like a sort of Spanish screen name. Isn't it great that the Spanish pushed the Muslim occupiers out of Spain around 1100.

"Islam is the World's fastest growing religion" is true only in Muslim minds. Christianity is growing faster in China, Africa, and South America.

"The compulsive habit that Islamophobes have to blame anything on Islam will never cease to intrigate me".

Sounds familiar doesn't it since muslims worldwide have been blaming Israel and America for absolutely all their failings.

By the way, my condolences for your having failed your english as a second language class.

If it's in a URL, is it a word?

http://www.intrigate.com/

Sorry to hear of anyone suffering from "innovative, practical and elegant software solutions."

:P

posted by Ispanan :

"Of course, these incidents directly stem from jihadist ideology. There are explicits verses in the Quran who orders the believers train ransacking, raping, and bank robbering. These people were not delinquents, but true Muslims, who have devoted their lives to the strict study of Islamic texts and are well acqainted in jihadist ideology. They most certainly don't go to school, surely don't know to read or write, but know Islam in and out, this is obviously their first concern in life. They didn't rape and steal because they were delinquents, but because they were Muslims. Crimes are alway committed by Muslims, this is a known fact.

/sarcasm off"

Haha, when a Muslim is being sarcastic they tell the perfect truth!

A gang of Muslim youths attacked 600 people on a French train, and they got away with robbery, assault, and rape. If not for a few bloggers here and there this story would never have made the news outside the confines of the neighbourhood. Why?

It is the purpose of a legitimate government to provide security for the citizen, and in return the citizen agrees to obey the law as it applies to all equally. Citizens agree to give the legitimate government the exclusive right to use force in the maintenance of law and order. That's why we are not vigilantes.

If the police cannot use force against a group of criminals rampaging agianst citizens, then they do not have any legitimacy as police enforcers but only as security guards and uniform fashion models. Those who do have the ligitmate right to use force against the citizen, the rampaging Muslims who rob, beat, and rape, have a legitimate right to do so if they can claim discrimination and disadvantage. So who has the legitimacy of rule? Muslim criminals.

We see above the end of the Republic. It is no longer legitimate but the legitimate government is now the Muslim criminals, those who have the exclusive legitimate right to use force against the citizen. It's illegitimate for the police to shoot Muslims, but it's legitimate for Muslims to shoot the police. By definition, the government is now Muslim.

But, when did this change take place? What majjority of the public decided to give control to Islamic criminals? I argue that there is now no government at all in any legitimate sense, only the terrified citizen who sits helplessly awaiting his turn to be beaten and robbed, her turn to be beate, robbed, and raped. Yes, the French are cowards. They might well continue to be subjujated by Muslims. They might well be exterminated. They do not have a legitimate government as of now to protect them. It is up to the average French citizen to asct in his own defence or he can sit on a train and wait to die.

It is legitimate to save ones own life even if the legitimate government sentences one to death. How much moreso when the government refuses to accept its first responsibility to protect its citizens for criminal assault?

Today 600, tomorrow six million. There are, as Primo Levi points out, the drowned and the saved.

sheik yer'mami ...

What will it take to reverse this?

I do believe - jsla gave the answer

jsla? Excellant post! Excellant

Ispanan

"The compulsive habit that Islamophobes have to blame anything on Islam will never cease to intrigate me."

The Koran preaches pure violence. Not only are non-muslim nations dealing with the over-flow of 'immigrants' who fled Islam to begin with - but are now dealing with the fruits that Islam does bear.

I do believe - the 'Truthophobes' - will eventually provoke the 'Islamophobes' one time too many.

Americans are not like the French.

How come 600 pasengers couldn't overwhelm 20 - 40 of these Muslim yobs and beat them all to pulps

I wonder this too. But then what would have likely happened is, the gendarmes, who waited for 1.5 hours to board the train (according to chevalier's message), would have acted very quickly. And arrested the passengers, not the Muslim thugs.

Like we saw in Sydney, they let the Muslim criminals rampage for 2 nights, with baseball bats, tyre irons and guns, but they arrested some white guy carrying a tree branch for self-protection and not damaging or hitting anyone. And also, we saw how the cops came down hard on the drunken mob at Cronulla, as they should have. But it would have been nice if they had swung those batons as vigorously at some Muslims who were destroying cars, shops and attacking people.

They're almost in control of France now. When 600 passengers couldn't take out 24 of these thugs, and probably at least 500 or 550 of them merely stood on the sidelines, it says everything about the indifference, complacency and lack of willpower which paralyses that country and its resident non-Muslim population.
Posted by: Spirit Of 1683

It's France. They did the same thing when the Germans marched into Paris.

Awe come on guys - it is the French. I mean how many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris??? Well nobody knows! The French have NEVER tried!!! (with the exception of that great Frenchman Charles Martel).

Besides even if the old women on the train massed together and beat up these Muslim youths (lets face it - it is possible, most Muslims are cowards/bullies towards infidels AND each other), well the old women would have been painted up on CNN as:

"White racist Grannies, heavily armed hold guns to the heads of oppressed youths of colour in France today. Something MUST BE done to stop this on going oppression of North African youth in the 'occupied territories'"

As Cronulla proved - when Muslims do it - they are "oppressed". When "whites" do it (aka actually defend themselves and culture) they are "white trash racists - the Neo Nazis, the KKK"

But seriously - maybe something good will come of it. Maybe the French will get rid of their French leaders for another non French one like Napoleon! If they don't they will get another non French one in the form of a mulla.

Palestinian gunmen burst into a house in and tried to kidnap the parents of Rachel Corrie, who was killed in 2003 as she protested the impending demolition of a house in the southern Gaza town
Posted by: sheik yer'mami

Islam isn't our only enemy in the USA. There are plenty of leftist lunatics who support Islamic Jihad. Code pink for example, the group of leftist moonbats who protest outside of a millitary hosptal in Washington, attacking our wounded. This group donated large amounts of money to Palestinian suicide bomber families.

Rachel Corrie's family should be banned from ever returning to the USA, and be made to live among their new found friends forever.

posted by Ispanan :

"Of course, these incidents directly stem from jihadist ideology. There are explicits verses in the Quran who orders the believers train ransacking, raping, and bank robbering. These people were not delinquents, but true Muslims, who have devoted their lives to the strict study of Islamic texts and are well acqainted in jihadist ideology"

Amazing. You told the truth!!! Most muslims deny the Koran and hadith that make these acts legal. Here are but a tiny few to support your statement:

Ishaq:326 “If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah’s enemies.”

Ishaq:326 “Allah said, ‘No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.’ Muhammad said, ‘I was made victorious with terror. The earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. Booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five privileges were awarded to no prophet before me.’”

Ishaq:510 “When the Apostle looked down on Khaybar he told his Companions, and what into error they throw, and Lord of the winds and what they winnow, we ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.”

Tabari VIII:116/Ishaq:511 “So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some people captive, including Safiyah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself.” To rape.

Terrorize rape and pillage. It's all quite clear. Why? Because it's all part of spreading Islam.

Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”

Qur’an 8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”

That's true it seems, at least in France.

Ishaq:208 “When Allah gave permission to his Apostle to fight, the second Aqaba contained conditions involving war which were not in the first act of submission. Now we bound themselves to war against all mankind for Allah and His Apostle. He promised us a reward in Paradise for faithful service. We pledged ourselves to war in complete obedience to Muhammad no matter how evil the circumstances.”

Noble Qur’an 2:190 Footnote: “Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.”

Bukhari V4B52N46 “I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, ‘Allah guarantees that He will admit the Muslim fighter into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and booty.’”

Seems quite clear where these "poor opressed youth" get their inspiration from, Ispanan.
Same books where you get permission to lie to us infidels in attempt to cover up what the cult of Islam is really all about.

Qur’an 46:30 have heard a Book revealed after Moses, confirming what came before it: it guides to the Truth and to a Straight Path.’ ‘O our people, hearken to the one who invites (you) to Allah, and believe in him. He will forgive you your sins, and deliver you from a Penalty Grievous.’”

My! All the semons from hell say it's the right book, and tell you to listen to "Allah".

I wonder why? May it be because Allah is Satan??

Nice religion you have there, Ispanan.

Allah foo bar.

OOPS.

46:30 reads:

Qur’an 46:30 “We Jinns have heard a Book revealed after Moses,....

Devils praising the koran, imagine that.

The most significant detail of this story is that it took 48 hours for the first AFP press release to report this.

600 passengers held hostage on a train, one (or two) sexual assaults and 48 hours for this news to come out.

And this is 2006 France, not 1975 Soviet Union.

Because of the reluctance to release any information of this event, the details are very sketchy but there were more than 20 of them. The Figaro newspaper suggests that there were 100.

In other reports I have read that passengers were threatened with knives and CS sprays.

Anyway here are a few links in French, with more info;

http://www.figaro.fr/societe/20060105.FIG0079.html?091700

http://www.france-echos.com/actualite.php?cle=7858

In other news. A Paris church last night held a meeting entitled 'Introduction to Islam'. It was an excellent opportunity to provide those attending with some alternative, dhimmi-unfriendly information.

What was most refreshing, was that no one objected to receiving the tracts about Islam that we had prepared. These were handed out, as they were entering and leaving the church. When people asked us is we were connected to the meeting, we said, that we were committed to exposing the fraud of Islam and that they would be reading an alternative point of view. No one objected, and some were quite positive about what we were doing.

During the meeting, pertinent questions about the true nature of Islam were made, in front of an estimated audience of maybe 250 - 300 people. Some of whom applauded and others who tut tutted when embarrasing questions on the bloody nature of the Coran were raised.

It was not a complete victory, but several people thanked us for attending and have expressed an interest in joining our group.

The most displeased, was the priest, who has been very successful in filling the church pews, but is completely ignorant about Islam.

Hopefully, he will have taken the time to read some of our literature.

Most refreshing was that no one from our group, had the opportunity to ask questions, but several others who are unknown to us did.

I felt a little less alone yesterday evening.

Sebastien
The boy done good!
We are not alone, hold on to that as we keep going.

Wow, Sebastien! I salute you. I'm sure there were some in your audience who were so relieved to hear what they've been thinking all along but probably couldn't find anyone to share these concerns with. I've met and talked to a few people in the last few months like that. There's this look of relief on their faces when you broach the subject of Islam and its danger. They know there's something wrong, but if all their friends and family have their heads in the sand, then they feel all alone, and worry they may be paranoid or just horrid intolerant racists. But when they find someone with the same concerns, it's like a huge burden is lifted off their shoulders, and they chatter away, wanting to know more.

Bit by bit. The task is difficult and slow. But we shouldn't give up.

I don't think Western men are scared of Muslims, per se. In a fair fight, as history has demonstrated repeatedly, Europeans will eradicate Muslims, no problem. Rather, Europeans and North Americans have been intimidated, bullied, threatened, terrorised by their own governments to such an extent that they are unwilling (for now) to confront the Muslim threat. This just goes to show that our enemies are not only the militant Muslim and African settlers in our midst, but the politicians, bureaucrats, church officials, and NGO operatives whose treasonous policies have created this mess.

I am an American Patriot. I was an Infantryman in the Vietnam war (a Grunt), I walked point as a rifleman for my Platoon. I was ambushed twice. have been under rocket attack several times, have dealt with snipers and Booby-traps during my year long tour of duty. I Love my Country.

Today I am still young at 56, healthy and strong, I weigh 200 lbs. And I am legally armed.So I must warn you islam (look me in the eyes you pigs#$t) that there are hundreds of thousands of us who searved our country in war zones, were just waiting here for you to come, please come and bring your filth with you so I can destroy it. We are here and we are waiting for you........

I wonder if Ispahan was one of those cowering pussies on that train.

Mullahmasher, at least it took 60 crack German divisions and the Luftwaffe to defeat France in 1940. Nowadays, they're defeated by the first Molotov cocktail thrown by their Islamic insurgency.

A French domestic policy that only Neville Chamberlain could be proud of. 500 to 600 Frenchmen out numbered by 50 to 60 Islamofeces/terrorist in training. France; a country waiting to surrender to anyone. Just give them a mean look.

>

It was 500 or 600 against about 25. Trust the French to come up with their "How to outnumber your foe around 20 or 25 to one and still lose". Still, selling white flags to the French beats selling coals to Newcastle anyday.

Well, I guessed you would answer my post, but I didn’t think (well, actually I did) you would lower yourselves to mock me because of 2 mistakes in my writing like retarded 15 years old teenagers would do. Anyway excuse me but I think that, for someone who knows 4 languages, my english is pretty decent :)

I guess I will repeat myself, in other words.

You actually seem to believe that these youth were directly inspired by the Kuran when they committed these crimes. According to you, they were reading the Kuran a morning, and decided they would “strike terror in the hearts of the infidels”, and “collect bounty” as their daily religious duty, so they went on a train raid to rob. Apparently, if they hadn’t read the Kuran, they wouldn’t have done that.

And this is why you will never convince anyone with this. You have no clue about how the world works. You have no clue about how the suburban youth is. Do you really think that they act upon the Kuran? Do you really think that without the Koran they wouldn’t do that? Do you really think they have EVER read the Kuran? Do you really think these delinquants and drug dealers care about religion?

They may say they are Muslims, but they say it merely to further differentiate from “whites”, just as Black do adopting the “gangsta culture”. They have no clue about Islam and the Kuran and don't care about it.

“Allah said, ‘No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.’

LOL do you know why he says that? Because the prophets before Muhammad KILLED the prisonners!

And you have another problem here: you mention only the negative parts of the religion. This is another reason why you will never convince anyone middly intelligent who has a minimal knowledge and Islam and knows there are other verses than advocate peace, equality, tolerance, and love. He will immediately realize how biased your informations are. At the contrary, someone who would have a minimum of credibility when criticzing the religion is someone who provides a balanced, objective vision of Islam, which you do not.

I could give an explanation about things such as the context of the verses, but that would be useless. However, I will give you some examples of verses and hadiths that people like you never mention because they are unable to explain what they are doing in the “Religion of Death”

CORAN

“There is no coercion in religion”

“Whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men”

“O you who believe! Be maintainers of justice, bearers of witness of Allah's sake, though it may be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives; if he be rich or poor, Allah is nearer to them both in compassion; therefore do not follow (your) low desires, lest you deviate”

“O you who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and he careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is Aware of what you do”

“Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.”

“Surely Allah enjoins the doing of justice and the doing of good (to others) and the giving to the kindred, and He forbids indecency and evil and rebellion; He admonishes you that you may be mindful.”

“O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other, and not despise each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.”

“And one of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your tongues and colors; most surely there are signs in this for the learned.”

“Kind speech and forgiveness is better than charity followed by injury; and Allah is Self-sufficient, Forbearing.”

“And (as for) the believing men and the believing women, they are guardians of each other; they enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Apostle; (as for) these, Allah will show mercy to them; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.”

“Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in the best manner; surely your Lord best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best those who follow the right way.”

“It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for (the emancipation of) the captives, and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in time of conflicts-- these are they who are {rue (to themselves) and these are they who guard (against evil).”

“And serve Allah and do not associate any thing with Him and be good to the parents and to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the neighbor of (your) kin and the alien neighbor, and the companion in a journey and the wayfarer and those whom your right hands possess; surely Allah does not love him who is proud, boastful;”

“And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.”

“For those who do good is good (reward) and more (than this); and blackness or ignominy shall not cover their faces; these are the dwellers of the garden; in it they shall abide.”

“And the recompense of evil is punishment like it, but whoever forgives and amends, he shall have his reward from Allah; surely He does not love the unjust.”

“O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity.”

“The believing men and women, are associates and helpers of each other. They (collaborate) to promote all that is beneficial and discourage all that is evil; to establish prayers and give alms, and to obey Allah and his Messenger.”

“And their Lord answered them: Truly I will never cause to be lost the work of any of you, Be you a male or female, you are members one of another”

“And among His signs is that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them and He has put love and mercy between your hearts: verily in that are signs for those who reflect ”

“Whoever is patient and forgiving, these most surely are actions due to courage”

"From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large,-a determinate share."

Etc.

HADITH

"He who is involved in bringing up daughters, and accords benevolent treatment towards them, they will be protection for him against Hell-Fire".

“Treat the women well. The best of you are those who are the best in the treatment of their wives. No one honors the woman except an honorable man. And no one humiliates her or holds her in contempt except one who is evil, vile, wicked and depraved.”

“How can anyone of you beat his woman as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace her (as if nothing had happened)?”

“"I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.”

“You are neither hard-hearted nor of fierce character, nor one who shouts in the markets. You do not return evil for evil, but excuse and forgive."

“Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone."

“All humanity is from Adam and Eve. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab, and a non-Arab has no superiority over an Arab. As well, a White has no superiority over a Black, and a Black has no superiority over a White – Except by piety and good action”
Etc.

"Islam is the World's fastest growing religion" is true only in Muslim minds”

You have no clue. And then you pretend to know a lot about the Muslim threat, and convince other people.

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..." [HILLARY RODMAN CLINTON, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3]

Already more than a billion-people strong, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion. [ABCNEWS, Abcnews.com]

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the country." [NEWSDAY, March 7, 1989, p.4]

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the United States..." [NEW YORK TIMES, Feb 21, 1989, p.1]

Moslems are the world's fastest-growing group..." [USA TODAY, The Population Reference bureau, Feb. 17,
1989, p.4A ]

"Muhummed is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities. " [Encyclopedia Britannica]
"There are more Muslims in North America then Jews Now." [Dan Rathers, CBSNEWS]

"Islam is the fastest growing religion in North America." [TIMES MAGAZINE]

“Americans are not like the French”

Indeed, they convert faster!

"Islam continues to grow in America, and no one can doubt that!" [CNN, December 15, 1995]

"The Religion of Islam is growing faster than any other religion in the world." [MIKE WALLACE, 60 MINUTES]

"MUHUMMAD WAS THE SOUL OF KINDNESS, AND HIS INFLUENCE WAS FELT AND NEVER FORGOTTEN BY THOSE AROUND HIM." A Hindu scholar [Diwan Chand Sharma in his "The Prophets of the East," Calcutta 1935, p. 122.]

"FOUR YEARS AFTER THE DEATH OF JUSTINIAN, A.D. 569, WAS BORN AT MAKKAH, IN ARABIA THE MAN WHO, OF ALL MEN EXERCISED THE GREATEST INFLUENCE UPON THE HUMAN RACE ... MOHAMMED ..." [John William Draper, M.D., LLD., in his "A History of the lntellectual Development of Europe",- London 1875.]

"I DOUBT WHETHER ANY MAN WHOSE EXTERNAL CONDITIONS CHANGED SO MUCH EVER CHANGED HIMSELF LESS TO MEET THEM." [R. V. C. Bodley in "The Messenger,"- London 1946, p.9.]

"I HAVE STUDIED HIM - THE WONDERFUL MAN - AND IN MY OPINION FAR FROM BEING AN ANTI-CHRIST, HE MUST BE CALLED THE SAVIOUR OF HUMANITY." [George Bernard Shaw, in "The Genuine Islam,- Vol. 1, No. 81936.]

"BY A FORTUNE ABSOLUTELY UNIQUE IN HISTORY, MOHAMMED IS A THREEFOLD FOUNDER OF A NATION, OF AN EMPIRE, AND OF A RELIGION." [R. Bosworth-Smith in "Mohammed and Mohammedanism".- 1946.]

"Five to 6 million strong, Muslims in America already outnumber Presbyterians, Episcopalians, and Mormons, and they are more numerous than Quakers, Unitarians, Seventh-day Adventists, Mennonites, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Christian Scientists, combined. Many demographers say Islam has overtaken Judaism as the country's second-most commonly practiced religion; others say it is in the passing lane." [JOHAN BLANK,
US NEWS (7/20/98)]

"In fact, Religion experts say Islam is the second-largest religion in the United States... Islam has 5 million to 6 million members, followed by Judaism, with approximately 4.5 million..... And Islam is believed to be fastest-growing religion in the country, with half its expansion coming from new immigrants and the other half from conversions." [By ELSA C. ARNETT Knight-Ridder News Service]

Now will you admit it, or will you continue in your state of denial?

List of converts to Islam

·Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - basketball player
·Karim Abdul-Jabbar - football player
·Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf
·Muhammad Ali
·Malcolm X - African-American civil rights leader. From Christianity to NOI to Islam
·Margaret Marcus - from Reform Judaism
·Abdullah Hakim Quick
·Yusuf Estes
·Steve Rockwell
·Daniel Moore
·Pamela Taylor
·Jemima Goldsmith - from Judaism
·Queen Noor Queen of Jordan - presumably from Christianity
·Tariq Abdul-Wahad
·Alexander Russell Webb - from Presbyterian Christianity
·Ellen Burstyn - sufism (presumably from Christianity)
·Amir Butler
·Dave Chappelle - from Unitarianism, which may also fit as Christianity
·Isabelle Eberhardt - from Lutheran Christianity
·Chris Eubank
·Everlast (singer) - presumably from Christianity
·Adam Yahiye Gadahn - from Christianity, which he may have come to from Judaism
·David Hicks - presumably from Christianity
·Murad Wilfred Hofmann - from Catholic Christianity
·Bernard Hopkins
·Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens) - from Greek Orthodox and Catholic Christianity
·Jermaine Jackson
·Nuh Ha Mim Keller - from agnosticism, which he came to from Catholic Christianity
·Khadijah bint Khuwaylid - from a sort of paganism prevalent in Arabia before Islam; was first female convert to Islam
·Jeffrey Lang
·John Walker Lindh - from Catholic Christianity
·Ruqayyah Waris Maqsood - from Protestant Christianity
·Ingrid Mattson
·José Padilla
.Marmaduke Pickthall - from Christianity
·David Musa Pidcock - from Catholic Christianity
·Harry St. John Philby
·Dwight Muhammad Qawi
·William Abdullah Quilliam - from Christianity
·Yvonne Ridley
·Jack Roche
·Stephen Schwartz - from Judaism, to Sufism
·Sheikh 'Abd al-Wahid Yahya(Sufi name for philosopher better known as Réné Guénon) - from Catholic Christianity; also supported Buddhism and other religions
·Brandon Toropov - from Christianity
·Shabbetai Tzvi - from Judaism
·Umar Faruq Abd-Allah - from Protestant Christianity
·Robin van Persie
·Danny Williams (boxer)
·Timothy Winter
·Michael Wolfe
·Napoleon (rapper) - from a Christian/Muslim household
·Matthew Saad Muhammad - from Catholic Christianity
·Dwight Muhammad Qawi
·Eddie Mustapha Muhammad
·Mustafa Hamsho
·Akbar Muhammad
·Hamdan Chris Eubank
·John Coltrane - from Christianity
·Art Blakey
·Ibrahim Hooper
·Mohammad Yousuf - from Christianity; cricket player
·Gary Miller (Abdul-Ahad Omar) Former Christian Priest and Missionary who have Embraced Islam
·James Yee
·Haschem Wilde
·Knud Holmboe

They are not village idiots, but famous and talented people who has achieved more in life than the ones of you who call for deportation of Muslims would ever dream to accomplish. Sucks, eh?

You would better start to accept it. One morning you will be awaken by the voice of the muezzin calling to the morning prayer, go to the street and find yourself in a new world, with Muslims all around you.

Following, two stories about Muslim women

ARE YOU READY TO MEET THE WOMAN WHO CAN GET BY WITHOUT HER LOOKS?

It is late in the afternoon at the University of British Columbia and I have been cooped up in this library for hours, trying to compose a thesis for my American Literature term paper. Deciding that a break would help clear my thoughts, I leave the confines of the library to sit outside, only to hear a female voice come up from behind me to ask: "Just how is it that you can live with yourself from day to day wearing that THING on your head and letting THEM control your life?"

Granted, it is an original line, a creative way to break the ice, yet why the code words? Only because I've been yelled at in public before for reasons connected to my appearance do I know what this woman means. Code word # 1: "head thing"= 30inch X 30inch yellow and maroon flower patterned polyester blend, a piece of cloth I happen to be wearing to cover my head and neck; Code word #2: "them"= all Muslim men who, sinister-like with their dark beards, heavy accents, and hidden Uzi's get a rush out of making women their life-long slaves.

Having deciphered all this quickly, I turn to face the stranger- a cross looking thing - I smile politely and signal to the empty chair beside me: "Would you like to have a seat?" HIJAB, the head to ankle covering that leaves only the face, hands and feet visible in public, has made me a very patient Muslim woman. The brave individuals who have mustered the courage to verbally express their opinions about my scarf haven't been the most trying. There are many who can't formulate words coherent enough to communicate their disapproval, and so, rely on simple gestures and sign language.

Walking through downtown Vancouver, I've been fingered, spat on, scowled and cursed at. Stepping into an elevator, I once traumatized a man who could do nothing but shuffle into the corner of the empty lift and mutter "What the ----? WHAT THE ----?!?!?!?!" I have to take the agitation, the horror, and even the hatred in a stride. But never will I be silent about it. I can ignore the flagrant distortions no more than I can deny the fact that I am a Muslim living in Canada. Who I am and what popular culture thinks I am, has become a tug-of-war-competition of who can explain the status of the Muslim hijab-wearer convincingly.

The media tells the public that I am a weak freak of nature who has been forced to subject herself to the tyranny of Muslim fundamentalists. Catherine Meckes assesses that wearing hijab is "some kind of twisted logic" because it entraps women like animals in a cage. The Muslim dress code, she argues, is a form of hiding from society so that I don't have to deal with the realities of my "natural habitat." Ms. Meckes seems to be familiar enough with the Western culture to know that women are constantly objectified, used as commodities, tools to sell beer and boost sales for the next football season. Sadly enough, though, she views women who wish to distance themselves from this commercial degradation with fear. She finds women who cover "disturbing" and wished that she didn't have to confront them on their "home turf."

Pardon my feeble-mindedness, I've pinned my scarf on too tight and squeezed reason out of my brain....just WHO is running away from the truth? I have chosen to set myself apart from millions of Canadians, placed myself in the way of ridicule by a society that demands women to conform to certain ideals, I have refused to hide in the crowded university hallways and malls by looking the way Cindy, Cosmo, or Calvin Klein think I should - all because I'm a spineless caged rodent?!?! I have rejected the hip-hugging jeans, the breast-enhancing halter tops, the poofy hair and made-up face, and accepted hijab so that I can be appreciated for my intellect and personality rather than my figure or fashion sense. When I face a classmate or colleague I can be confident that my body is not being scrutinized, my bra-strap or pantyline visible. I have repudiated the perverted values of our society by choosing to assert myself only through my mind.

I understand my "natural habitat" ! very well thank you. I fully comprehend the distorted image of the "ideal woman," but the difference between me and the Catherine Meckes's of the world is that I am NOT afraid to defy those standards. Islam liberated me from THAT prison.

Perhaps hijab is so misunderstood because it is prescribed by a religion that makes a bold and shocking statement: Women are precious creatures who have the right to be valued for who they are, and not what they can juggle. When I decided to start wearing hijab, my mother pulled me aside and posed this question: "If you found a diamond that was exquisite in every way, would you show it to all your friends, let them gawk at its dazzle, caress it, or would you covet the stone and protect it by preserving its natural splendor?" Once you bear something for all to see, the second you display something for its beauty, you objectify it and diminish its value. Because its worth is built on its ability to attract, when it no longer elicits awe from onlookers it becomes worthless.

Is it a wonder that neck lines keep plunging every year?- more cleavage means women won't bore oglers, the commercial industries, and the rest of society for awhile. But when will those skirts quit shortening?? For how long will women remain sex objects?? Islam tells us that every woman is a jewel and when she respects herself enough to preserve her beauty for herself and her loved ones, she rejects being objectified by a society which does NOT value her.

Only the dearest people in my life know me without hijab because they love me enough to value ALL of me. John and Jane Doe don't love me or care for me, so why must I meet their notions of an "ideal woman" if they are meaningless to me? It is the desire to please popular culture that makes 15 year old girls want to fit into Kate Moss's jeans by sticking their fingers down their throats and wretching (throwing up) three times a day. It is the unattainable Perfect-Body society has conjured, that make "fat", "ugly" girls splatter themselves on sidewalks because they just are "not thin and pretty enough".

AND THEY TELL ME ISLAM OPPRESSES WOMEN??

I am thankful that I am not suicidal or psychologically unbalanced because I can't meet the demands of my culture. I am fortunate that my concerns and goals in life lie on a higher plane than the dictates of a pretty fashion industry. I am quite content with my religion, for it values my power to achieve great things through my mind, not through my body. Whether I am physically beautiful or not, you have no clue. Perhaps this fact is disturbing for Catherine Meckes and the library stranger because they are not ready to meet a woman who can get by without her looks. Then again, perhaps it is because they are just ignorant of the (WHAT IS IT?) facts. Either way, I don't need anyone's sympathy, I am not really that scary, and your anger does me no harm. I am not under duress, or a male-worshipping female captive from the barbarous Arabian deserts

A Woman on a Mission

Sidra Khan reports on Aisha Bhutta's bid to convert the world to Islam
The Guardian, Thursday 8th May 1997

Aisha Bhutta, nee Debbie Rogers, is serene. She sits on the sofa in big front room of her tenement flat in Cowcaddens, Glasgow. The walls are hung with quotations from the Koran, a special clock to remind the family of prayer times and posters of the Holy City of Mecca. Aisha's piercing blue eyes sparkle with evangelical zeal, she smiles with a radiance only true believers possess. Her face is that of a strong Scots lass - no nonsense, good-humoured - but it is carefully covered with a hijab.

For a good Christian girl to convert to Islam and marry a Muslim is extraordinary enough. But more than that, she has also converted her parents, most of the rest of her family and at least 30 friends and neighbours.

Her family were austere Christians with whom Rogers regularly attended Salvation Army meetings. When all the other teenagers in Britain were kissing their George Michael posters goodnight, Rogers had pictures of Jesus up on her wall. And yet she found that Christianity was not enough; there were too many unanswered questions and she felt dissatisfied with the lack of disciplined structure for her beliefs. "There had to be more for me to obey than just doing prayers when I felt like it."

Aisha had first seen her future husband, Mohammad Bhutta, when she was 10 and regular customer at the shop, run by his family. She would see him in the back, praying. "There was contentment and peace in what he was doing. He said he was a Muslim. I said: "What's a Muslim?".

Later with his help she began looking deeper into Islam. By the age of 17, she had read the entire Koran in Arabic. "Everything I read", she says, "was making sense."

She made the decision to convert at16. "When I said the words, it was like a big burden I had been carrying on my shoulders had been thrown off. I felt like a new-born baby."

Despite her conversion however, Mohammed's parents were against their marrying. They saw her as a Western woman who would lead their eldest son astray and give the family a bad name; she was, Mohammed's father believed, "the biggest enemy."

Nevertheless, the couple married in the local mosque. Aisha wore a dress hand-sewn by Mohammed's mother and sisters who sneaked into the ceremony against the wishes of his father who refused to attend.

It was his elderly grandmother who paved the way for a bond between the women. She arrived from Pakistan where mixed-race marriages were even more taboo, and insisted on meeting Aisha. She was so impressed by the fact that she had learned the Koran and Punjabi that she convinced the others; slowly, Aisha, now 32, became one of the family.

Aisha's parents, Michael and Marjory Rogers, though did attend the wedding, were more concerned with the clothes their daughter was now wearing (the traditional shalwaar kameez) and what the neighbours would think. Six years later, Aisha embarked on a mission to convert them and the rest of her family, bar her sister ("I'm still working on her). "My husband and I worked on my mum and dad, telling them about Islam and they saw the changes in me, like I stopped answering back!"

Her mother soon followed in her footsteps. Marjory Rogers changed her name to Sumayyah and became a devout Muslim. "She wore the hijab and did her prayers on time and nothing ever mattered to her except her connections with God."

Aisha's father provd a more difficult recruit, so she enlisted the help of her newly converted mother (who has since died of cancer). "My mum and I used to talk to my father about Islam and we were sitting in the sofa in the kitchen one day and he said: "What are the words you say when you become a Muslim?" "Me and my mum just jumped on top of him." Three years later, Aisha's brother converted "over the telephone - thanks to BT", then his wife and children followed, followed by her sister's son.

It didn't stop there. Her family converted, Aisha turned her attention to Cowcaddens, with its tightly packed rows of crumbling, grey tenement flats. Every Monday for the past 13 years, Aisha has held classes in Islam for Scottish women. So far she has helped to convert over 30.

The women come from a bewildering array of backgrounds. Trudy, a lecturer at the University of Glasgow and a former Catholic, attended Aisha's classes purely because she was commissioned to carry out some research. But after six months of classes she converted, deciding that Christianity was riddled with "logical inconsistencies". Unlike Aisha, Trudy has chosen not to wear the hijab, believing it to be a masculine interpretation of the Koran. Her family don't know that she has converted.

"I could tell she was beginning to be affected by the talks", Aisha says. How could she tell? "I don't know, it was just a feeling."

The classes include Muslim girls tempted by Western ideals and needing salvation, practising Muslim women who want an open forum for discussion denied them at the local male-dominated mosque, and those simply interested in Islam. Aisha welcomes questions. "We cannot expect people blindly to believe."

Her husband, Mohammad Bhutta, now 41, does not seem so driven to convert Scottish lads to Muslim brothers. He occasionally helps out in the family restaurant, but his main aim in life is to ensure the couple's five children grow up as Muslims. The eldest, Safia, "nearly 14, alhamdulillah (Praise be to God!)", is not averse to a spot of recruiting herself. One day she met a woman in the street and carried her shopping, the woman attended Aisha's classes and is now a Muslim.

"I can honestly say I have never regretted it", Aisha says of her conversion to Islam. "Every marriage has its ups and downs and sometimes you need something to pull you out of any hardship. But the Prophet Peace by upon him, said: 'Every hardship has an ease.' So when you're going through a difficult stage, you work for that ease to come."

Mohammed is more romantic: "I feel we have known each other for centuries and must never part from one another. According to Islam, you are not just partners for life, you can be partners in heaven as well, for ever. Its a beautiful thing, you know."

"Jack Roche
.......They are not village idiots, but famous and talented people who has achieved more in life than the ones of you who call for deportation of Muslims would ever dream to accomplish.
-Ispanan"

Ispanan - your holy Koran is full of contraditions. You quote Sura 2 where it says "no compulsion of religion" which is then superceded by all the following verses condemning those who don't believe in Mo and Allah to be "crucified" - why don't you quote THE WHOLE VERSE ISPANAN????????

You Muslims always accuse US infidels of only quoting parts of your own book - yet you do it yourselves to twist the truth. Hypocrite!

Yes in Australia we have a convert called Jack Roche - he is in prision for being a good Muslim trying to blow up the Israeli embassy and spread some Islamic "love". Maybe posters here should quote that other "great" Muslim Cat Stevens and some of the Muslim "love" he has sprouted. Not idiots you say??? Hardly!!! Only an IDIOT WOULD LOOK UP TO THEM!!!

Seeing you enjoy cut and paste Ispanan here's mine from http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_MiscIslam.htm and I'm not even an atheist - but good news!!! More and more and are learning from Christians to Budhists to Atheists!

From Muslims
O ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers .... and let them find harshness in you. [Koran, Repentance: 123]

Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute. [Koran, Repentance: 29]

O believers, do not treat your fathers and brothers as your friends, if they prefer unbelief to belief, whosoever of you takes them for friends, they are evil-doers. [Koran, Repentance: 20]

Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends.... whoso does that belongs not to God. [Koran, The House of Imram: 60]

The earth is flat, and anyone who disputes this claim is an atheist who deserves to be punished. [Muslim religious edict, 1993 Sheik Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baaz Supreme religious authority, Saudi Arabia]

If someone becomes a Muslim then apostatizes, he would be asked to repent; if he does not repent, he should be killed. [Imam al-Shafi'i, The Ordinances of the Qur'an (part 1, p. 289)]

Somebody may say: ‘Do you want to deny freedom to people?' We say to him: ‘If what is meant by freedom is to disbelieve in God's religion, or the freedom of infidelity and apostasy, then that freedom is abolished and we do not recognize it; we even call for its eradication, and we strive to oppress it. We declare that publicly and in daylight"' [Dr. Taha Jabir's, "The Islamic Society" April 17,1984, p. 26]

And another from

For S. A. Rahman discussion on the apostate and freedom of religion does not simply begin and end with the citation of Qur'an 2:256. True to his assertion that the verse "deserves detailed discussion", he proceeds to discuss the matter, sadly noting also a variety of concerns and opinions on the matter which "whittle down" the verse's "broad humanistic meaning".[6] They are in summary from: http://answering-islam.org.uk/Hahn/mappe.html

1.
Some Quranic exegetes state that Qur'an 2:256 has been abrogated by the following verses:
O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them.... (9:73)

O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you.... (9:123)

Say unto those of the wondering Arabs who were left behind: Ye will be called against a folk of mighty prowess to fight them until they surrender.... (48:16)[7]

Oh Yawn - how boring!!! As for Aisha - justify it any way you like - but if Mo really talked to god - God would have told him that having sex with a nine year old is sick and wrong.

taqiyya
Quran 2:256

And finally here one from a true Islamic scholar from Pakistan whom I really admire and look up to here in Australia – Daniel Scot from the Victorian Religious and Vilification persecution case.

I quote:

2:256 Muslims are told that there is no compulsion in religion. {CRC (cross reference contradiction) 9:5 Muslims are told to kill idol worshipers but if they become Muslims they must let them live. 9:29 Muslims are told to fight Christians and Jews until they accept the teachings of Mohammed or are utterly (subdued) and pay the Jizya (tax from Christians and Jews to protect them from other Muslims. When MuhamMAD conquered the Jews of Khaybar {Khyber} he charged 50% of all the produce as protection money, (Life of Mohammed by Ibn Ishaq pages 510-519)}

2:259-260 Allah killed a man and his donkey as the man did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. Allah brought both the man and the donkey back to life after a period of 100 years”

from “A Summary of the Qur’ran” by Daniel Scot Published by Ibrahim Ministries International - if anyone wants the PO box ask me and I will send it to you if you want this excellent book by the Infidel Islamic scholar you can quote off by heart (not cut and paste off the computer like Islamspam!) the Koran and the Hadith (he had to just to get a job in a Pakistan Uni as a Maths Professor) .

Personally I think 2:259 really shows just how ridiculous the Allah who always changes his mind really is!!

Ispanan,

See my reply to your presentation of Biblical verses in the previous thread, here.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/009660.php#comments

Mohammad confirms all that Old Testament violence,(his followers really stepped it up several notches in their efforts to implement Sura 9 upon the world), and then adds child-rape and violent world domination to mix. Nice prophet you've got there.

Now, to this thread...

3rdtimelucky is absolutely correct. The "no compulsion" snippet is an absolute sham. See 2:256-257.

Tell the nine-year-old brides that get raped in some Islamic countries (right now, today) that there is "no compulsion in religion." Tell the women in Afghanistan (right now, today) who commit suicide or are beaten to death by their husbands (Koran 4:34--which overrules all Hadith in Islam, and you know it) or who were slaughtered by the Taleban that there is no compulsion in religion. Tell the people who are executed for blaspheming against Islam that there is no compulsion in religion.

The "anyone who kills a man" snippet, as presented, is also a sham. Just read 5:32-5:33 for yourself. I've already explained this to you. The verse permits the killing of disbelievers under a broad range of circumstances. It is of no help whatsoever to non-Muslims, because it does not offer them protection.

So-called good verses in the Koran only apply to Muslims; the good sentiment is never extended to non-Muslims. Verse 48:29 is clear, confirming the Koran's general policy that Muslims are good to each other but they act hard and without mercy toward the non-Muslims.

Ispanan,

Michael Wolfe (one of your star Muslims) is another one who misleads the public about Islam. First, he says, for his his appraoch in his book (cited below), "I have tried to address non-Muslims as well as Muslims..." (p. xi, see ref. below). Okay. But then he quoted that "no compulsion" verse 2:256, broke the single verse into 4 separate lines, and presented it to readers as if it was a "passage," without mentioning the policies for Muslims and non-Muslims! (see page 72, _The Hadj: An American's Pilgrimage to Mecca_ (1993). Grove Press, New York).

If he had quoted the passage as it applies to both non-Muslims and Muslims, it would have at least included the very next verse, 2:257, which guarantees hell-fire for the penalty of disbelief.

Here's what Wolfe DID NOT PRESENT:
(Pickthall)
2:256: “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.”
2:257: “Allah is the protecting guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are the rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.”

No compulsion in Islam, but you will be tortured in hell-fire for all eternity if you do not believe in Islam. (That's in addition to all the other wonderful things Muslims will do to you in this life). That's addressing both non-Muslims and Muslims. The passage is both a lie and contains a contradiction.

Then Wolfe says the Koran does not contradict the scientific method (p. 95).

Really? The scientific method finds that the sun does not set in a mud puddle, and that sperm does not originate from a man's kidney area. Ergo, the Koran contradicts the scientific method and it lies.

See these sites for coverage of various Koranic follies.

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/index.htm

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

Wolfe says "women acquire property rights" (p.95), neglecting to mention that (according to the Koran) women must only inherit half of what a man may inherit. He also neglects to mention that non-Muslim women may be ACQUIRED AS PROPERTY by Muslims during warfare and raids (and raped, of course). Wolfe says Islam forbids infanticide, but the Koran says let the idolaters kill their own children (i.e., do not intercede to save the idolater child from being slaughtered).

The Koran lies. Then people like Michael Wolfe, Ibrahim Hooper, etc., and various others in Ispanan's list tell lies about the Koran's lies.

Of course, Wolfe isn't all lies. He cites that "...all Muslims are brothers and sisters..." (p. 324). True, but he fails to mention that the brotherhood/sisterhood sentiment is not extended to non-Muslims. Also, Wolfe quotes a Muslim as saying "One day the whole world will be Muslim," (p. 51). I guess that's frankly honest, particularly given that this quote is made within a discussion that includes some talk about family sizes.

BTW, Ispanan, you have one of the Jackson family on your list, but not Michael. Isn't Michael a Muslim? He certainly promotes Islam.

This just goes to show that our enemies are not only the militant Muslim and African settlers in our midst, but the politicians, bureaucrats, church officials, and NGO operatives whose treasonous policies have created this mess.

Posted by: Stuka at January 5, 2006 09:01 AM

Amen!!!!

Ispanan, the pathetic converts you listed are hardly distinguished people, just very disturbed, confused, disaffected souls seeking to legitimize their psychotic tendencies with the first flimsy excuse that comes along. IBRAHIM HOOPER?!!! That despicable little piece of human detritus should be flushed down a toilet with his Qur'an in hand.

Hooper is scum; a terror-supporting, hyprocritical, mendacious traitor who resorts to endless litigation to forcibly impose respect for his filthy death cult.

Islam is a wretched curse upon humanity. We might be "Islamophobes", but it's NOT because we don't understand Islam. And every day, each one of us welcomes a few more "Islamophobes" to the club. Pretty soon, the world will be teeming with "Islamophobes."

Ispanan - From one of your ilk;

Honorable Kafir Président de la République Française, Jacques Chirac, aka La Girouette - the weathervane.

When you are buffaloed, watching our current Islamic operation and the great inferno, I must say a few words that will give an insight of the Muslim youths of France . What we are doing right now may surprise many Westerners, but you will have to understand that we are merely following the guidelines of Islam.

Yes, we are oppressed; so are Muslims of Palestine, Kashmir , Chechnya , China , Russia , India , Singapore , Australia and many other countries. You see, our definition of oppression is a little different from yours. Whenever a Muslim is living in a Kafir country and ruled by a Kafir, he/she immediately feels oppressed. Until a Muslim sovereign rules us, Muslims have every right to revolt.

Western media run by Jewish entrepreneurs are crying “foul” when we burned a handicapped woman. What’s wrong in killing a few Kafirs here and there when Jihad is in progress? Our holy prophet did many times; what is wrong if we do the same? He authorized the killing of Asma B. Marwan because she dared to taunt Islam. A sword was pierced through her chest while her baby was still suckling the breast (Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir). The holy prophet even made a humorous comment in this regard. He said, “Two goats will butt together about her.” When you banned wearing the hijab, it became obvious that you were humiliating our religion. Now you have to face the consequence.

Some people are talking about our unemployment and planning to find jobs for us. What a bunch of fools! Why do we have to work? Our holy prophet never worked; he loved hunting and it was his only profession. Oh! You misunderstood again! I am not talking about deer hunting; our prophet used to attack merchant caravans to please Allah and Allah was always kind enough to allow accepting precious goods out of these raids. Unfortunately, we cannot practice this noble profession anymore because of excessive law and order. So, we are fully dependant on welfare money. Now don’t ask us to be grateful to your country; gratefulness is not an option in Islam. We only thank Allah for whatever we get. You Kafirs are merely a means to fulfill Allah’s wish.

Realistically, we really don’t have time to work anyway. We wake up early in the morning to offer morning prayer. There is some free time in the morning but you guys don’t start your office hours early. We can work for 2-3 hours in the morning, then it is time for afternoon prayer. Of course, we have to eat and take a short nap because we had to get up early in the morning. In the evening we have to pray again and after dinner there is another session of prayer. We go to bed early and do some very productive work with our wives, fulfilling the wish of the prophet: ‘Muslims will outnumber all other religions’. It reminds me of another oppression; we cannot have more than one wife, whereas we have a religious obligation to keep up to four wives. So, we can only work a few hours a day for 11 months a year--it’s impossible to work in the month of fasting, or Ramadan.

Naturally, we make more money from welfare than from working. We don’t have enough education to provide nice jobs either. Some Jewish media are complaining about integrating with the mainstream. How naïve these people are! How could we go to public school where all kinds of un-Islamic actions are going on? They don’t teach the Quran, the book of miracles. We cannot amalgamate and make friends with Kafir French people – this is clearly written in the Quran, the grandmother of all books. Too much mixing may lead to interracial marriage. How can our sisters marry unbelievers if they don’t change their religion to Islam?

This world is nothing but a mirage; our final destination is heaven and that is where we will live the rest of our lives. The only obligation we have is spreading Islam and making sure we become the majority in this country when democracy will play in our favor. We are anxiously waiting for those golden days when we will make our own Caliph (Ruler) and throw the so-called civilization in the garbage, Inshallah (God willing).

Yet, why are we creating all this destruction? There are several reasons behind this project.

It is kind of a habit or tradition of Islam. The holy prophet killed and tortured many people to establish Islam and his successors followed suit. We need to keep our spirit high until this country becomes Islamic. The other branches of Islam, i.e., the moderate and intellectual Muslims, will continue preaching a peaceful Islam. However, they will need us when a full-blown Islam takes place. At the moment, we are on a mission to burn all cars of this country. We like to get rid of all cars and busses, which is a sign of stinky civilization, and replace them with camels and donkeys. It’s the first step to introduce pure Islam. We will also benefit in the short run. Many sympathizers will understand our pain and they will solicit to increase our welfare money. Maybe we will be moved from the ghetto to the Château. Your Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy called us ‘scum’, which did not bother us at all. But we did find it very offensive when he tried to reform Islam.
He tried to insert modern concepts in Islamic teachings and change the impulse of real Islam. What a moron! How could a Kafir dare to reform Islam? Can he change the Quran, the most holy book of mankind, from which we received the inspiration to kill Kafirs? At best, he could create another branch of Islam, perhaps a new brand of Islam that will be called ‘Napoleon Islam’. Within the last 1400 years, there have been several attempts to change Islam and many sects were created, such as:

Kharijitis - (replica of the prophet Muhammad pbuh, motto-kill all unbelievers),

Mu'tazilah - (the so-called "Free-Thinkers"),

Wahabis – (modern real Muslims),

Sufis - (wishy-washy Muslims who helped spread Islam in India , Indonesia and Malaysia ),

Hashshashin or Assassins - (expert in assassinating Christians at the time of the Crusades),

Baha'ism – (followers of Baha' U'llah"--"Mirza Husayn Ali"), they desire to unite mankind in one religion. Fools indeed!),

Ismailies – (a branch of Shiite Islam),

Ahmedia – (soft-hearted Muslims, often regarded as non-Muslims by other sects).

There are many other sects of Islam that were short lived. In India , a Mughal emperor, Akbar, launched a new religion, Din-E-Ilahi, another version of Islam, which did not last.

So far, Muslims belong to two major groups: Sunni and Shiite. A whopping 85% of Muslims are Sunni and they will rule the world eventually. Just to refresh your memory, be it known that Osama Bin Laden and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi are two famous Muslim brothers who belong to the Sunni sect. Did you ever wonder why other Muslims never took the initiative to find these holy guys? The answer is very simple - no matter how moderate Muslims sing about peaceful religion, they all are committed to save the virginity of Islam, which is the core of Islam and practiced by Mullahs. Even though we love to fight and kill other sects of Muslims, we are united under the Islamic flag if we smell Kafirs.

Why am I giving out all this confidential information, you may ask? Well, there is a reason for it. We, the Muslims, like to make the whole situation easy for both of us.

If you embrace Islam, all problems will be solved. Mullah Charles, I mean Prince Charles of England understands the advantages of being a Muslim and he is doing his best to preach Islam. Had he been converted to Islam, he could have kept his first wife Diana and his second wife Camellia, both at the same time. He could have two more wives as a bonus and no one would raise an eyebrow. In his recent visit to America , he could have taken all four wives, making Americans jealous.

However, Mr. President, it is a little different in your case. Islamic countries have no military strength since the power of the sword has been abolished. We have the dream to conquer the world but our inefficiency in technical know-how is an obstacle. France , which will be named ‘Faristan’ after you embrace Islam, will have enough power to invade other countries. Like our holy prophet, all you have to do is call them to become Muslims and if they don’t comply, nuke them. You will have no problem killing innocent people and you will never suffer from guilt. People with so-called human rights may scream like crazy but it never will bother your conscience. This is the beauty of Islam; a real Muslim is never ashamed of killing Kafirs and enjoys heavenly pleasure in slitting their throats.

Being a supporter of communism in your youth, you will enjoy Islam very much. Islam proudly retains many qualities of communism. So-called democracy, freedom and human rights are cheap talk that has no place in Islam and communism. Look at Denmark . The largest newspaper of the country, Jyllands-Posten, had the courage to make cartoons of our holy prophet. The Copenhagen Imam Raeed Hlayhel rightly declared, “I will not tolerate this. If this is democracy, we disagree with democracy.”

Patience and tolerance are factors of democracy. These virtues are also a form of kindness. What you don’t know is kindness is a sign of weakness. You guys don’t have the guts to ban the Quran or Islam as a whole. The Quraish people did not have the courage to wipe out Islam at its birth. Eventually, the prophet wiped them out. The same thing will happen to you as well. One day we will outnumber the Kafirs and become the ruler through democracy; your very own democracy that you nurture so lovingly will work like a boomerang. Then we will establish Caliphat and Sharia law.

Interestingly, when Islam is criticized, your own people start bashing the critic. The Swedish prime minister scolded your interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, for being confrontational with Muslims. Isn’t that a nice gesture? All we need to do is color the problem with racism and discrimination; the rest would be taken care of by your own people.

You had a very good connection with the Islamic world. Your friendship with the honorable Saddam Hussein helped French oil companies gain a 23% share of Iraqi oil. I have no doubt brother Saddam Hussein still remembers your generosity for selling a nuclear reactor called Osirak.

If you embrace Islam, you will see the truth and power of Islam. Who knows, you may want to join us in burning some cars and school buses, too.

May Allah change your heart?

An angry Muslim youth,

Mohammad Khalid bin Walid

You had better realize Grunt isn’t the only one watching you and your buddies!!!

Ispanan,

You let slip into your Koranic good quotes (which, anyway, do not apply to the fair treatment of non-Muslims) a few problems.

What do you do, copy these quotes in batches out of some Islamic apologist's bin of goodies without first looking at what you’ve got?

You quoted:
“And serve Allah and do not associate any thing with Him and be good to the parents and to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the neighbor of (your) kin and the alien neighbor, and the companion in a journey and the wayfarer and those whom your right hands possess; surely Allah does not love him who is proud, boastful;”

“…those whom your right hands possess”

Be good to your slaves! Thank you Allah!

You quoted (from 4:19):
“…except where they [women] have been guilty of open lewdness;”

Women found guilty of lewdness (adultery) must be confined to the house until death (4:15)! Required to establish guilt is the eye-witness testimony of 4 men. If the woman sincerely repents to Allah and reforms (i.e., does not re-offend), the penalty is not given. However, if these conditions are not met, the penalty is given. In addition, Allah will punish her in hell-fire (4:18)!

I don't have time to poke away at all your wonderful quotes from the Koran, but this should be enough for now.

Ispanan - I have seen the Bible verses you have quoted on the other thread in some VAIN attempt to somehow defend Islam. I have also seen Archimedes response. While I don't fully agree with Archimedes, he makes a lot of sense. Why is it that Muslism defend their book by attacking Christianity, even when debating non Christians???? ANS: Because they display the same hate towards Christianity as their “profit” did!

But here it is from a Bible literalist like myself:-

1) the 'horrible' verses you quote in the Bible all pertained - VERY CLEARLY to those who had stolen the land that Abraham legally bought for his people before the famine came and forced them into Egypt where the Jews ended up being enslaved. These horrible verses in the Bible quite clearly pertain to action WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF ISRAEL SOME 3000 B.C. The verses clearly say – “go to this place, at this time, and do this”. It is VERY SPECIFIC – unlike the violent passages in the Koran.

Conclusion as a Bible thumping GENTILE?: Well I'm not worried for my sake or that of my family when we hop on a bus and see an Orthodox, head banging Jew with a backpack on - even if I were in their land Israel (including the "West Bank" = stolen Jewish lands) Now if a Muslim hopped onto the same bus as me carrying a package??? Well that DOES make me nervous, not because of some theological Koranic argument - but because 9/11; Bali 1; Bali 2; London 7/7; Aust. Embassy Bombing; Beheaded Christian school girls in Indonesia; David Hicks; Jack Cockoroche; etc etc etc. Ispanan - you can argue theology all you like - but as that "corrupt Bible" says - "You shall know them by their fruits" The fruits of Islam is death to the infidel.

2) Those horrible events you quote in the OT Bible also concerned strange people/tribes known as the Nephal. I am not going into it here, but needless to say many ancient Rabbi's and early Christians took the Nephal passages literally (angelic view) before the Roman Catholic Church "interpreted" then into the "Sethite" view. These Nephal verses are reinforced in the New Testament in Jude and I think, Matthew. Either way it's all moot - it pertained to events some 3000BC and said above - all was within the bounds of Israel.

Conclusion from a Bible thumping Christian: That Muslims today due to the very FREQUENT and GENERIC HATE and WAR verses ALL THROUGH the Koran, backed up by Islamic history from Mo (may pigs piss be upon that pedophile) means that infidels should fear and fight Islam. Also, are there any Nephal in Israel today??? Who knows, Jesus said that the last days shall be “as in the days of Noah”. But again, no Bible verse is telling me, a Christian to go and kill them – even in Israel today.

3) Those "horrible" OT verses were not about what the Nephal tribes believed. Rather they were about the Jewish people taking back what Abraham had legally purchased for his people. No where does YHWH say to the Jews,

" Kill every Muslim WHEREVER you find them" – simply because they don’t believe. The retaking of Israel after the exodus was all about retaking stolen Jewish land, it wasn’t about forcing people to believe world wide in some Jewish religion. And besides, if the Jews were so stubborn with these rules and regs, how come they did go into idol worship time and time again (even though it led to their downfall – time and time again)??

In fact all these "rules and reg's" you quote from the OT ALL pertain to the Jewish people IN ISRAEL. Are you Jewish Ispanan???? Nope I didn't think so, your an idiot, and while Jews are human (not monkeys like your books say) they are generally as a people incredibly smart and educated. Your list of Muslims makes mockery of all the smart and intellectual Jews who have existed through history from Soloman to Einstien, and their inventive gifts to the world. And Cat Stevens compares to these guys how???? Some bitter one hit wonder???

Please pull your head out of your arse, the BS is really starting to stink. I can understand now why the Christians and Jews in Mohammed's time (pigs piss upon him) mocked Mohammed (pigs piss upon him). Mo logic is no logic at all, no wonder the Muslims revert to violence. How can you defend the indefensible? ANS: Simple – you kill your opposition and end the discussion!!

Ispanan - please - taking the Bible literally - please find ONE VERSE that commands a Christian, and I dare say a Jew, to go out and KILL people if they don't believe. JUST ONE!!!

Again I ask didn't anybody put the violence on video? I hpoe that there is a collection of video evidence attesting to the violence of these Arabs so that when we are accused of Islamaphobia we can say here are so many hours of docuemented jihads please be quite.

“Tell the nine-year-old brides that get raped in some Islamic countries (right now, today) that there is "no compulsion in religion." Tell the women in Afghanistan (right now, today) who commit suicide or are beaten to death by their husbands (Koran 4:34--which overrules all Hadith in Islam, and you know it) or who were slaughtered by the Taleban that there is no compulsion in religion. Tell the people who are executed for blaspheming against Islam that there is no compulsion in religion.”

Right, like if children or women abusers needed the Koran to commit their crimes. Like there wasn’t child or woman abuse in non-Muslim countries. Just keep your ridiculous emotional BS for yourself.

“Koran 4:34 overrules all Hadith in Islam, and you know it”

Only because you say it. I have given an explanation about the verse in that other post, but you still don’t get it, and repeat the same things over and over again.

“why don't you quote correctly, as in
"It was ordained for the children of Israel:
“Whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men”
"Ordained for the children of Israel"-guess where that was stolen from?! The mobots perverted it of course to suit their cult, but the sura stands for all to see.”

In no way it prevents it from being applicable to all Muslims. Anyway, could you tell me where this verse is mentioned in the Bible or the Torah?

About the whole Koran – Hadith thing, I have already discussed the matter in that “60 cars still burning” thread, and won’t begin with the whole crap again.

“I have seen the Bible verses you have quoted on the other thread in some VAIN attempt to somehow defend Islam”

It was not to defend Islam, it was to answer your statement that nowhere in the Bible was any statement to kill unbelievers – so I proved you wrong. Actually I do not really need to defend Islam – rather YOU need to “defend” the West from IT.

“The 'horrible' verses you quote in the Bible all pertained - VERY CLEARLY to those who had stolen the land that Abraham legally bought for his people before the famine came and forced them into Egypt where the Jews ended up being enslaved. These horrible verses in the Bible quite clearly pertain to action WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF ISRAEL SOME 3000 B.C. The verses clearly say – “go to this place, at this time, and do this”. It is VERY SPECIFIC – unlike the violent passages in the Koran.”

Your denial is amazing. Does “God is Burning Fire”, the “death for blaspheming the name of God” (Inquisition), the child rod-beating etc. etc. also apply to those who had “stolen their land”??? Do you want me to quote the verses about women? About slavery?

Alas, you resort not only to personal attacks but also to statements typical of Islamophobes morons such as yourself, repeating the thing about pig urine several times to… what? Offend me? Keep saying it, if that makes you happy J
The today Christians, fortunately, don’t take their religion seriously. They follow a vague version of their religion which only comprises certain aspects of it and let out the most embarrassing aspects, such as woman inferiority, which was the cause of the woman subordination in western society until recent times. Sometimes even the good aspects are ignored. It is always funny to see some “Christians” Americans in manifestations supporting wars such as the Iraqi war and defending death penalty (“An eye for an eye”).

Oh btw just one more thing. Do you know that Mary the mother of Jesus was 12 when Jose, who was 80, married her?

“please find ONE VERSE that commands a Christian, and I dare say a Jew, to go out and KILL people if they don't believe. JUST ONE!!!”

DID YOU READ MY POST, OR ARE YOU JUST COMPLETELY RETARDED???

"Ispanan:
why do you post the same crap again?"

You are right, I already posted this in the other thread. But I just wanted people to take a look at these stories and understood some misconceptions about the practice of Islam that exists today.

The second story amazed me. The intelligence, patience, and devotion of this woman are admirable, and should be an example for all those who claim to be Muslims. Do you not agree with me?

Who knows? The same history could happen anywhere in the world, perhaps even in your own neighborood.

Ispanan,

“Right, like if children or women abusers needed the Koran to commit their crimes.”

Actually, the Koran (and Hadith) gives them licence to do the abusing. BTW, the Islamic Paradises that implement this marriage law in modern times (e.g., the late Khomeini’s Iran), allowing men to marry girls at the age of 9, base their decision on nothing other than the Islamic texts (reliable Hadiths), which show that Mohammad had sex with Aisha at the age of 9.

Here are the hadiths which mention Aisha’s age at marriage and at the consummation of the marriage.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

Tabari IX:131 “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”
The Islamists are resiting modern values, modern human rights, in favour of following their prophet’s example. They follow the prophet’s example, because the Koran tells them to do so:
Koran 33:21. “Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.”

And the Koran orders the men to beat their wives if they fear rebellion/disobedience. This is to maintain order in the Islamic society. It is a divine command from Allah, for Muslims to follow.

Koran 4:34. “Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.”

A discussion of 4:34 and the word “beat” can be found at http://answering-islam.org/Silas/wife-beating.htm

Hadiths which deal with wife-beating.

Ayesha said “I have not seen anyone suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!” Bukhari. vol. 7, book 72, no. 715. The “green” adjective is in reference to the bruising from the beating.

That’s Aisha complaining to the prophet about a woman who has been badly beaten, and that Muslim women generally suffer more than all other women. What does Mohammad do about this? Nothing. Verse 4:34 had already been revealed.

Mohammad himself beat his child-bride Aisha, making him guilty of both wife-beating and child abuse. Of course, in Islam, he’s not guilty of anything.

“…He (Muhammad) struck me (Aisha) on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?” Muslim, book 4, no. 2127.

Mohammad’s child-wife Ayesha tells of how the prophet struck her hard enough to cause pain (and an enduring memory of it). Mohammad does not even realize he has just dealt unjustly with Aisha by striking her.

“Like there wasn’t child or woman abuse in non-Muslim countries.”

I didn’t claim the Islamic Paradises were the only places where such abuse and immorality occurs. However, the Islamic Paradises lag behind in human rights. If you don’t believe me, go live in Saudi Arabia or Iran. And it is the Islamic doctrine that allows and/or fails to prohibit this type of abuse. To quote from Spencer’s _P.I.G. to Islam_, “The Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences has determined that over 90 percent of Pakistani wives have been struck, beaten, or abused sexually…” (p. 70). Islam allows wife-abuse, modern secular laws don’t. Do yourself a favour and read Spencer’s book.

“Just keep your ridiculous emotional BS for yourself.”

If you’re hoping that I or any of the other critics of Islam are going to stop, forget it. Get used to the fact that that’s not going to happen. There’s more and more of us all the time. In a free society, you’re going to have to get used to criticism. Just like you criticise people on this site, they’re free to criticise you. Many Muslims, though not all, still have difficulty grasping this concept.

You keep claiming it’s my BS. Actually, it isn’t. I’m not a Muslim. You, however, are a Muslim believer. It’s your Koran, therefore it’s your BS. I’m just reporting it. You’re stuck with it! Now that the truth about Islam is getting out to the broader public, if you try to remain a Muslim, you’re going to have to listen to critics like me for the rest of your life. And there’s nothing you can do about it, except…try this option
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/index.htm
Ahh, apostacy, wonderful apostacy. Islam is so tolerant, you’ll have no problem at all making the switch! All these nasty JW-ers are just making up all this stuff about Islam being intolerant.

““Koran 4:34 overrules all Hadith in Islam, and you know it””
“Only because you say it. I have given an explanation about the verse in that other post, but you still don’t get it, and repeat the same things over and over again.”

Muslims scholars say it, Ispanan, and if you really don’t know that, that’s just a reflection of how little you know about your own religion. Muslims accept that the Koran is the word of Allah conveyed by Mohammad. They place the contents of the Koran as being more valid than the Hadith. That’s what Muslims believe. I don’t believe any of it.

You haven’t provided an explanation of anything. You post insults, plus some cut-and-paste. That’s all you’ve shown us so far; that’s how you’ve chosen to exercise your freedom of speech.

PS. (Didn’t you promise us, on multiple occasions, that you would stop posting here?)

Do you know that Mary the mother of Jesus was 12 when Jose, who was 80, married her?

Give me the book chapter and verse in the Bible where it gives their ages please.

LOL Winston Churchill? A human filth who helped to overthrow the democratic government of Iran in 1953 when he knew he wouldn’t put his hand on Iranian oil anymore. Truly someone qualified to speak about the sins of Islamic countries.

Well, Arch, I already told you I wouldn’t answer your points about it anymore, however I have some questions:

“the Islamic Paradises that implement this marriage law in modern times (e.g., the late Khomeini’s Iran), allowing men to marry girls at the age of 9, base their decision on nothing other than.”

Why do you only mention Iran? Isn’t there other Muslim countries besides Iran? Do you know that in Brazil the minimum age is 12, in some USA states 14 or less, and in Muslim countries like Syria it’s 15?

“the Islamic texts (reliable Hadiths), which show that Mohammad had sex with Aisha at the age of 9”

They are reliable only because you say it. Liberal Islam does not agree with Aisha’ age and have proven their theories as I already showed.

Again, why do you always mention Saudi Arabia and Iran??? Are they the only Muslim countries? What about Indonesia?

Iran has still a hard-line regime, but the country is progressing slowly. By example, women are 60 % of the university students. And more achievements in human rights are being made.

“I didn’t claim the Islamic Paradises were the only places where such abuse and immorality occurs”

And yet you tell that when it happens in Islamic countries, it is because of Islam. WHY DOES IT HAPPEN IN OTHER NON-MUSLIM COUNTRIES?

And why showing only the most negative aspects?

“Status of women in Pakistan

Pakistan is the first Muslim country to elect a woman (Benazir Bhutto) as a Head of Government. Women are well represented in politics and in many upper-middle-class professions. Nevertheless, within Pakistan, there are wide diversities and divergences between provinces and territories, and between urban/metropolitan areas and remote rural localities. The complexity of these is daunting.

While Pakistani women continue to struggle for advancement, they have made strides by a number of measures. Among these are the rising numbers of women in well-paid professional occupations, increased activism by feminist groups, and a recent rapid reduction in the number of children per woman. Women in Pakistan have progressed in various fields of life such as politics, education, economy, services, health and many more. The Pakistani women of today enjoy a better status than most Islamic and Middle Eastern women.

Pakistan is the only country to have a Female Major-General in the army; Pakistan is the only Muslim country to have women fighter pilots in its Air Force/Military; Pakistan fares much better then all its neighbors, many Western European countries and the USA, when it comes to women's representation in the Parliament and local governments; a MINIMUM of 33% seats have to be occupied by women, by law. Pakistani women have always played a very important part in its society. Asma Jehangir, the human rights activist is a great Pakistani woman. Nowadays, you see Pakistani women excelling in all facets of life; they are in the police, in the Commando unit of the police and security forces, they lead corporations (e.g. Unilever Pakistan,) they are respected journalists etc.

There are many good role models to young girls on various Pakistani Television channels who are females, such as singers and talented actresses in Pakistani TV dramas.

Yet much more remains to be done in terms of equal rights and protection as well as amendments to biased and defunct Hudood Laws.”

“There’s more and more of us all the time ”

Again, because you say it. What do you base yourself upon to say that?

Thanks for your link, I will give you another:

http://www.convertstoislam.com/

So the troll Ispanan soils this thread again, churning out the sort of puerile rot we have come to know only too well from previous trolls. Islam is a force for misogyny, cruelty and barbarity. Women become the victims of honor killings. Their faces are turned to "smileys" by Muslim thugs all too often. And as for the rights of Pakistani women - what rights? The right not to be forced to suffer the degradation of wearing hideous burkas. What about the rights of those poor Christian schoolgirls decapitated by Muslim fanatics in Indonesia? Did they deserve to be murdered for being Christian eh Isatroll? Didn't they have a right to live? Or those air hostesses on those 911 flights who had their throats cut? Obviously they didn't deserve to live in the eyes of the typical Muslim, just like those tourists in Bali and Luxor, office workers in New York and passengers on those four planes, schoolchildren in Beslan and commuters in London - all had to be murdered in the most horrific fashion to sate their devil God Allah and the vile bloodthirsty prophet Mohammed - and we all know what the response to those atrocities was on the Muslim street - the singing and partying of Muslims as New Yorkers jumped to their deaths to escape incineration and at least have a grave for their grieving families to place flowers on. But in contrast to the burka-clad bollards in Pakistan and elsewhere in the Islamic world, women in Britain, North America and Europe etc have had rights for 100 years. Nobody forces them to wear burkas. Nobody degrades them. But then we all know that Pakistan is a retarded Third World craphole with a 36% literacy rate. A total basket case like so much of the Islamic world. Only oil has stopped a complete collapse of Islam, and finances hate-spewing mosques and madrassahs pouring out the sort of spite that Bin Laden and Zarqawi take their cue from. Islam - religion of misogyny, religion of lies and deception, religion of paralysis, religion of backwardness, religion of savagery, brutality, vindictiveness, genocide, heartlessness, covetousness - a love of stealing from and enslaving the infidel, and a death cult that has waged undistinguishing and exterminating war for over 1,300 years against all who deny that Mohammed is the Prophet of God. But then that is nothing new for a religion of maniacs who saw the heads off innocent hostages. And when they're in the West - a religion of traitors who are only too prepared to blow up those they grew up amongst, just like 7/7.

Ispanan,

Re Ayesha's age.

Arch-“the Islamic texts (reliable Hadiths), which show that Mohammad had sex with Aisha at the age of 9”

Ispanan-"They are reliable only because you say it. Liberal Islam does not agree with Aisha’ age and have proven their theories as I already showed."

I don't say they're reliable. Mainstream Islam says they're reliable. Again, you show how little you know about your own religion. But, if you don't believe me, do your research the issue for yourself. The Bukhari and Muslim collections of the hadith reports are generally regarded by mainstream Islam as the most valid. (Those are what you unknowingly quoted regarding Mohammad's ideas on racial equality, in a previous thread. Do you reject those hadiths too?). The historian Tabari's account also agrees on the issue of Aisha's age, as I showed. Moreover, the companion Omar married a four-year-old girl, which was lawful with the prophet's blessing. Nowhere does the Koran put a lower age limit on marriage. Allah is more concerned with more important things (such as over 250 separate verses devoted to burning the infidels in the hell-fires (for the crime of being disbelievers), 164 verses devoted to violent jihad warfare, etc... you see, he just didn't have time). On the other hand, if you could show me, from Islamic texts that Muslims consider valid (Koran, hadith, Sira, or accepted historical work), that is sufficient to outweigh the above reports that Aisha was 9 when the prophet had sex with her, then you should bring it forth. Post it.

"Liberal Islam" (i.e., liberal submission/surrender)? I've heard all kinds of claims from people who say they are liberal Muslims, but they fail to show how their modern liberal ideas are supported by the Islamic texts, and they also fail to denounce/excise/remove/condemn the bad verses in the Koran. Why? Because either they deny such verses and reports exist in the texts, or they know such verses are there but they are afraid of being killed, harrassed, ostracised, etc., by other Muslims. There are a small percentage of liberal Muslims, but they are having practically no impact on mainstream Islam, and their main objectives appear to be to convince the infidels that Islam is peaceful and tolerant, and that those who criticise Islam are "Islamophobes." In other words, instead of reforming Islam truly by facing up to the problems and dealing with them, they try to pretend such problems do not exist.

...and regarding your link, Ispanan, in the common phrasing of so-many non-Muslims who are offered Islam, I say "No thanks. I don't need that."

I've read the Koran, Sira, parts of the Hadith, and parts of Tabari, and certain Islamic scholars who produce tafsir of the verses...all of which are available online free of charge. One must acknowledge the few good points, but the majority of it is so morally bad, indeed, so blatantly evil, or else incoherent or contradictory, and disorganized...it never seemed to me at any time that Islam was a viable option. (And, given the availability of religions, why wouldn't I choose a religion that at least gave me the options of freedom of expression (including criticism), and freedom to leave the religion if my conscience tells me that certain significant tenets are wrong morally and indeed evil). My background is in psychology. So when I read the Islamic texts, it was just obvious that Mohammad fit the pattern of psychopath narcissist and obsessive compulsive who was using "Allah" for his own grandiose and often evil purposes.

And as for those good points, Ispanan, you have to admit that none of them apply to non-Muslims. Allah is forgiving and merciful only for the Muslims who show the submission/surrender/obedience to him; the single-minded slaves of Allah. Only the pure slaves of Allah will reach Paradise.

I challenge you again: Find any good verse in the Koran, or any report in the Hadith, that is good for non-Muslims and shows tolerance in disbelief of Allah. Good luck!

BTW, why do you never cite the Koran properly, with the verse numbers? Aren't you aware that there are Korans available free on the internet?

And one last suggestion I'll make on this thread, Ispanan, is that you should really read Spencer's latest book.

Even as an Islamist propagandist, if you want to prepare yourself to debate well-informed non-Muslims, you will need to be able to respond to what Spencer argues in this book. Spencer demolishes just about every Politically Correct myth and trick in the book, and does it mostly based on the damning evidence from the Islamic texts themselves (Koran, Hadith, Sira), history of Islamic colonialism and expansionism, as well as reports of present-day bloody terror tactics and media scare tactics of the various Islamist groups.

Here's the complete reference:

Spencer, Robert. (2005) _The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)_ , Regnery Publishers, Washington DC.

You can find out more about the book on the internet. Read the reviews. Lots of 4 stars and 5 stars out of 5. New York Times Bestseller for many many weeks.

List of converts to Islam

·Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - basketball player
·Karim Abdul-Jabbar - football player
·Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf
·Muhammad Ali
·Malcolm X - African-American civil rights leader. From Christianity to NOI to Islam
·Margaret Marcus - from Reform Judaism
·Abdullah Hakim Quick
·Yusuf Estes
·Steve Rockwell
·Daniel Moore
·Pamela Taylor
·Jemima Goldsmith - from Judaism
·Queen Noor Queen of Jordan - presumably from Christianity
·Tariq Abdul-Wahad
·Alexander Russell Webb - from Presbyterian Christianity
·Ellen Burstyn - sufism (presumably from Christianity)
·Amir Butler
·Dave Chappelle - from Unitarianism, which may also fit as Christianity
·Isabelle Eberhardt - from Lutheran Christianity
·Chris Eubank
·Everlast (singer) - presumably from Christianity
·Adam Yahiye Gadahn - from Christianity, which he may have come to from Judaism
·David Hicks - presumably from Christianity
·Murad Wilfred Hofmann - from Catholic Christianity
·Bernard Hopkins
·Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens) - from Greek Orthodox and Catholic Christianity
·Jermaine Jackson
·Nuh Ha Mim Keller - from agnosticism, which he came to from Catholic Christianity
·Khadijah bint Khuwaylid - from a sort of paganism prevalent in Arabia before Islam; was first female convert to Islam
·Jeffrey Lang
·John Walker Lindh - from Catholic Christianity
·Ruqayyah Waris Maqsood - from Protestant Christianity
·Ingrid Mattson
·José Padilla
.Marmaduke Pickthall - from Christianity
·David Musa Pidcock - from Catholic Christianity
·Harry St. John Philby
·Dwight Muhammad Qawi
·William Abdullah Quilliam - from Christianity
·Yvonne Ridley
·Jack Roche
·Stephen Schwartz - from Judaism, to Sufism
·Sheikh 'Abd al-Wahid Yahya(Sufi name for philosopher better known as Réné Guénon) - from Catholic Christianity; also supported Buddhism and other religions
·Brandon Toropov - from Christianity
·Shabbetai Tzvi - from Judaism
·Umar Faruq Abd-Allah - from Protestant Christianity
·Robin van Persie
·Danny Williams (boxer)
·Timothy Winter
·Michael Wolfe
·Napoleon (rapper) - from a Christian/Muslim household
·Matthew Saad Muhammad - from Catholic Christianity
·Dwight Muhammad Qawi
·Eddie Mustapha Muhammad
·Mustafa Hamsho
·Akbar Muhammad
·Hamdan Chris Eubank
·John Coltrane - from Christianity
·Art Blakey
·Ibrahim Hooper
·Mohammad Yousuf - from Christianity; cricket player
·Gary Miller (Abdul-Ahad Omar) Former Christian Priest and Missionary who have Embraced Islam
·James Yee
·Haschem Wilde
·Knud Holmboe

Posted by: Ispanan at January 5, 2006 05:29 PM

GUESS HE AINT BEEN KEEPPING UP ON CURRENT EVENTS MOST ON HIS LIST IS DEAD OR ON THE TERRORIST WATCH LIST??

ROTFL!!

The French this is why Le Penn will win FRENCH MEN STAND BY AND LET THEIR WOMEN BE ABUSED BY MULSUMS

WHAT WIMPS 600 AGAINST WHAT 20 TO 40 AND WHO LOST THE french!!

http://media.putfile.com/French-riots

LOOKS LIKE MULSUMS TO ME...

and there are only 1.5 milion mulsums in the USA!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE US STRENGTH TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM STUPID OR NOT AMEN

PS
A Gun in hand is better than 2 cops on the Phone!!!

http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.p?ref=/hanson/hanson200601060804.asp
January 06, 2006, 8:04 a.m.
A Letter to the Europeans
Cry the beloved continent.
Despite the bitter recrimination and growing rift between you and us, most Americans have not forgotten that a strong, confident Europe is still critical to the material and spiritual well being of the United States.
It is not just that as Westerners you have withstood — often later at our side — all prior challenges to the shared liberal civilization you created, whether the specter of an Ottoman global suzerainty, Bonapartism, Prussian militarism, Nazism, fascism, Japanese militarism, or Soviet Communism.
Nor is our allegiance a mere matter of history. Europe is the repository of the Western tradition, most manifestly in shrines like the Acropolis, the Pantheon, the Uffizi, or the Vatican. We concede that the Great Books — we as yet have not produced a Homer, Virgil, Dante, Shakespeare, or Locke, much less a Da Vinci, Mozart, or Newton — and the Great Ideas of the West from democracy to capitalism to human rights originated on your continent alone. And if Americans believe our Constitution and the visions of our Founding Fathers were historic improvements on Europe of the 18th-century, then at least we acknowledge in our humility that they were also inconceivable without it.

No, there is a greater oneness between us, an unspoken familiarity even now in the age of global sameness, that makes an American feel at home in Amsterdam, Paris, Rome, or Athens in a way that is not true of Istanbul, Cairo, or Bangkok.

read the whole thing!!

Ispanan, I asked for the Biblical reference, book chapter and verse to support your assertion that "that Mary the mother of Jesus was 12 when Jose, who was 80, married her?"
And you have failed to give it. Do you know why you have failed? because nowhere in the bible does it mention mary's age or that of her husband. Luke 1:26 says "the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, with a message for a girl betrothed to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David; the girl's name was Mary."
The only 12 year old girl mentioned is the daughter of Jairus who Jesus healed Luke 8:40 and 8:49. She was still living at home, with her loving parents who were distraught. And the Lord's words to her were "Get up, my child" and he told her Mother to get her something to eat.
Such love, and concern for the details, that a growing child will have her appetite return as she recovers.

And, Catherine, I notice none of those folks have got the courage of their convictions to live in an Islamic country, like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Aceh Province Indonesia etc, to get the full flavour of Islam and experience its brutality at first hand. Its easy to be a Muslim in a Western country. There's no punishment for it. But try being a Christian or a Jew in an Islamic country, and its a living Hell. And at the end of the day, if you want to be a Muslim, then bugger off to Saudi Arabia or Iran and practice your new faith there, and leave us Westerners in peace.

Pretending that honour killing is derived from Islam greatly shows the level of ignorance of the people who then pretends to know a lot about Islam. I don’t know where you got that, though I know Spencer at least made this statement. Honour killing has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with culture. It is a practice present in some societies long before the coming of Islam. For example it is practiced in some African Christian countries, and in some parts of South America, while in Indonesia, the largest Muslim country, it doesn’t exist. There is NOTHING in Islam who justifies this crimes, nor there is anything in Islam who condones the killing of innocent people.

And when complaining about islamist terrorism I hope you are aware State terrorism and crimes, namely USA, has caused far more deaths than islamist terrorism has, beginning with the nuclear bombing of Japan, passing by suport of dictatures all over the world, CIA operations, depleted uranium and chemical weapons in Irak, as well as the 1991 - 2003 embargo. Both bin laden and the western democratic leaders who took part in actions like this, as well as those who support (vote) for them are the same kind of human trash, with a different name.

At your place, I would ask myself why a man (Spencer) who pretends to have studied Islam during 20 years would make this kind of claim knowing this isn’t true (and this is not the only one). I would seriously consider to what extent I am being given biased or even false information to suit some people’s agenda. And the funniest thing is I’m then asked to buy and read his books and “refute” his “demolishing” (yet again, because you say it) claims. This would be like an American being asked to read a book about 11-S conspiracy theory and then answer the devastating claims that are in this book that 11-S wasn’t committed by Al-Qaeda terrorists.

Nor the misoginy comes from Islam; it comes, as I said before, not from religion but from culture. Islam was a revolution at the time it was made. While women in Occident won their rights (to divorce, bear witness, etc.) some 100 years ago, Islam prescribed those same rights 1300 years ago, in a society where women were given less consideration than cattle. They had the right to marry and divorce according to their will, inherit, bear witness, possess, hold businesses, etc. etc. It was a well known fact during the Medieval era that at least some Jewish women appealed to Muslim courts to get a bill of divorce because in the Jewish law they couldn’t divorce without their husband consent.

Arch:

Why do you keep posting stuff about the verses? I already told you I wouldn’t answer you anymore, since whatever I say you would repeat the same crap over and over again. I already told you about Aisha. I already gave you a link who contested the Aisha age at marriage and told you why traditional Muslims were reluctant to leave the 9 years old at marriage theory even though there was severe evidence on a different theory. Why do you keep saying the same thing again without answering those points? And why do you ask me to give you good verses about non-Muslims if you will always say they are either abrogated or don’t mean what they seem to mean? Why should I answer you since, whatever verse I give you, you will always find an excuse to not accept it?

Granny:

I never said the age of Mary was mentioned in the Bible. It is mentioned at least in one apocryphal writing which is accepted by the Western church. Anyway, what if it is or not mentioned in the Bible, since Christians recognize the texts are doubtful?

The Mary age is a minor matter. There are far worse things in the Bible. The Israelites were not only allowed, but actually commanded to put to the sword all the males (that includes children) when they took a city as well as the non-virgin females while keeping the “girls who never slept with a man” (that includes children) for them, after giving some in sacrifice to God. So you have a God who at one point not only allowed but actually COMMANDED genocide and child-raping, not without asking his followers to keep some for his bordello in the skies. I hope nobody who is Christian or Jewish will criticize Muhammad for marrying a “9” years old (which was actually a common practice at the time and place anyway). But this is not all: besides what I already posted, the Bible also speaks about stoning disobedient children (granted the rod-beating text was quite an improvement), selling daughters as sex-slaves, and many, many more things. So the age of Mary is, as you can see, a minor matter in comparison.

And finally, I ask you the same I did long ago and you didn’t answer: if Islam is such a violent and infidel-hating religion, why were there Jews living in Islamic countries until the creation of Israel? What are they still doing there if Muslims are commanded to fight and kill non-believers? And most of all, why did Jewish culture flourish under Islamic rule? Why did the Golden Age of Judaism take place in Muslim Spain if Islam is so bad? WHY?

Ispanan,

You like to pretend that you answered my points and those of the other posters here. Aren't you the least bit disturbed by the fact that everything I say about the badness of Islam comes directly from the Islamic texts themseleves? You lie constantly to yourself and to us. If you don't get around to reading Spencer's book, how about reading the Koran? I am under the distinct impression that you've not read it. The Koran is the biggest weakness of all of Islam, the achilles heel. The Koran cannot be altered now. You're stuck with it--the wife-beating, the terror, the slavery, the brutal punishments, the religiously-based apartheid, the vile hatred, the scientific absurdities, the logical contradictions, the historical inaccuracies...it's your burden to defend. It's much easier to leave it. Just don't tell anyone you've left it.

Bukhari, volume 4, book 52, number 260, it is reported that "The Prophet said, 'If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.'" This policy of executing apostates is confirmed in the Sira, e.g., Ishaq: 550, 551.

Here's some reading material, a gift for you, courtesy of my disbelieving associates...
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

And if you want to find out what all those words in the Koran mean according to one of the top Islamic scholars in history, Ibn Kathir, go here...
http://tafsir.com/

Start with your favourite verses, like 5:32-33 and 2:256-267.

Ispanan,

"why were there Jews living in Islamic countries until the creation of Israel? What are they still doing there if Muslims are commanded to fight and kill non-believers?"

The Islamists aren't finished killing and removing them yet, and those who are still there are persecuted or historically have suffered through dhimmitude, etc. (BTW, Ispanan, you keep talking about how Islam is the fastest growing religion, has over a billion followers today, etc. Don't you ever stop to think about why there are so many Muslims and so few Jews?)

Something you'll discover, if you ever get around to reading the Koran, Hadith, and Sira, is that according to those texts there were many Jews living in Mecca, Medina, and indeed throughout many parts of the Arabian Peninsula. Aren't you the least bit curious as to what happened to them all? Read your own texts.

Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6985.
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177.
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Ispanan,

"...if Islam is such a violent and infidel-hating religion,"

You say "if"!! Read the Koran!

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

Hatred Toward the Non-Muslims.

Disbelievers (non-Muslims): are “worst of created beings” (98:6), are “miscreants” (2:99, 24:55), are the worst beasts in Allah’s sight (8:22, 8:55); (Christians and/or Jews are) turned into “apes and/or pigs” (2:65-66, 5:58-60, 7:166); (idolaters are) unclean (9:28); “evil” is upon them (16:27), evil (2:91, 2:99); “wicked” (80:42, 9:125); the “wrong-doers” (42:45, 2:254, 5:45); evil-doers (42:44); they have no good in them (8:23); are “guilty” for disbelieving (45:31, 83:29); on the side of Satan and are fighting for him (4:76-77); of the party of Satan (58:19); Allah assigns them devils for protecting friends (7:27); they choose devils for protecting friends (7:30); are partisan against Allah (25:55); “enemy” and “perverted” (63:4); disgraced lives (22:9); hypocrites (4:61); have a “diseased heart” (2:10, 9:125); are ill (84:20); deaf, dumb, and blind, and have no sense (2:171); deaf and dumb and in darkness, Allah sends them astray (6:39); have no sense (5:103); a folk who do not understand (9:127); their fathers were unintelligent and had no knowledge or guidance (2:170, 5:104); are “a folk without intelligence”/ “most ignorant” (8:65, 6:111); losers who are deceived by Allah (2:6), and deceived by Satan (4:60); liars/they lie (2:10, 9:42, 16:39, 16:105, 59:11) “losers” (7:179); foolish and liars (7:66), liars and losers (58:18-19), false pride and schism (38:2).

The worst possible sin is disbelief in or denial of Allah (10:17, 11:18-19, 18:15, 32:22). Disbelief or turning away from Allah is a persecution worse than warfare (2:217) or slaughter (2:191). (for a discussion of 2:191, see http://www.faithfreedom.org/faq/70.htm ). Allah boasts as having carried out multiple genocides throughout history to wipe out the disbelievers (17:16-17). For Mohammad, this extreme hatred of disbelievers may have started when many people who heard him speak, in his early phase as a self-proclaimed prophet. Most ignored him, and some dismissed him and mocked him (e.g., they considered him a “mad poet,” see 37:36). Having a hugely inflated ego and a tendency toward anger and violence, Mohammad cursed them (Allah would doom them (37:33)). Unable to convince more than a few select followers of anything he was saying, Mohammad and his gang soon resorted to killing, terrorizing, or coercing disbelievers.

Muslims must _____________ the non-Muslims/disbelievers: fight/oppose/shun/strive against/regard as the enemy/never help/never befriend/sever family ties with/never compromise with/never obey/never forgive/chastise/curse/be ruthless toward/be stern toward/etc. 3:118; 3:28, 3:56; 3:87-88, 4:50, 4:63, 4:101, 4:139-140, 4:144, 5:54, 5:57, 8:65, 9:14, 9:23, 9:29, 9:73-74, 9:123, 25:52, 28:86, 31:7, 33:48, 45:7-8, 48:28-29, 53:29, 58:5, 58:22, 60:1, 60:4, 60:10, 60:13, 63:6, 66:9, 68:8-9, 76:24, 84:24. Note that the “never help” (28:86) command means that Muslims’ good works are limited to helping other Muslims or to otherwise pursuing Islam’s interests. 60:4 says followers of Allah will hate the disbelievers forever until they believe in Allah only.

4:144 "Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves?"

Terrorize and Kill the Infidels.

Disbelievers fear Muslims more than they fear Allah 59:13. Also, Allah strikes terror into the disbelievers 3:151, 59:2, 21:97.

47:4 “So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.”

8:12 “When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.”

8:60 “Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.”

8:65 “O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.”

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

(Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1062, 1063, 1066, 1067) Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me: the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me.

Ispanan,

"Why should I answer you since, whatever verse I give you, you will always find an excuse to not accept it?"

Like the "good" verse I refused to accept because it said be good to your slaves?! How can you believe in this crap, Ispanan?

"While women in Occident won their rights (to divorce, bear witness, etc.) some 100 years ago, Islam prescribed those same rights 1300 years ago"

Women were given the right to vote, drive, get a job abd career and do the same thingsas men 100 years ago. Women barely have any rights in Islamic countries today

"in a society where women were given less consideration than cattle."

Sounds like an Islamic society to me, where women get stoned to death for adultery, and we know that in Scandinavia, 68% of rapes are carried out by Islamic thugs who should be deported en masse to the crapholes they, or their parents came from. And yes, cattle are treated with a dignity that women in Islamic countries never get. Has anyone ever seen a cow wearing a burka? The fact is Islam is a barbaric and depraved death cult, and should nnever be tolerated in a civilized socirety, lest it degenerates into the sort of barbaric society we had 1,400 years ago.

And lets look at the following:

The Algerian Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat GSPC issued a call for action against France, French intelligence officials revealed Tuesday.

"The only way to teach France to behave is jihad and the Islamic martyr," said the group's leader Abu Mossab Abdelwadoud in an Internet message earlier this month.

"France is our enemy number one, the enemy of our religion, the enemy of our community," he was quoted as saying.

French officials said that France was mentioned 15 times in the text, and the Algerian government was also targeted.

French Officials have said earlier that nine men who were detained in a series of anti-terrorist raids in the west of Paris early Monday are members of the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat, an armed formation growing out of the Algerian Armed Islamic Group (GIA) and linked to the al Qaeda network.

GIA is the main force in Algeria's long insurgency which was also responsible for a series of bombings in France in 1995.

Source: http://english.people.com.cn/200509/28/eng20050928_211233.html

And we know that the Muslim community in France is heavily influenced by the likes of the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat.

Well, Arch, you have quite an obsession with the verses. You post the same thing over and over again, like you thought the more and the more times you post the violent verses and hadiths, your arguments are more credible. But why do you think I will ever feel doubts about it when you continue to leave my points unanswered and keep saying the same thing I answered to? And why do you keep mentioning all this crap about abrogation when it is written by scholars who don’t have the support of the majority of Muslims?

« The Islamists aren't finished killing and removing them yet, and those who are still there are persecuted or historically have suffered through dhimmitude »

Don't be ridiculous. Jews and Christians have lived under Islamic rule for 1300 years, time enough to wipe them out. Why did they not do it? why, if Muslims are commanded to kill unbelievers are they still there? Why did they not slaughter them if it was their God commanded religious duty? If Muslims must despise unbelievers so much, why were they allowed posts in the governments of Islamic countries and califate ? why did Jewish culture flourish under Islamic rule? Why did the Golden Age of Judaism take place in Muslim territory? Why did the Muslims welcome the Jews when they were fleeing Europe for North Africa and Turkey? Did you read my post about the dhimmi law?

«Don't you ever stop to think about why there are so many Muslims»

Conversion? Sexual reproduction?

« and so few Jews ?»

Holocaust?

« There were many Jews living in Mecca, Medina, and indeed throughout many parts of the Arabian Peninsula. Aren't you the least bit curious as to what happened to them all? »

Expulsed or converted. They had attacked Muslims time and time again, what should be expected? Expulsing them was better than to have to fight them over and over again.

«Unable to convince more than a few select followers of anything he was saying...»

Yes, he was unable to convince anybody save this 1.3 billion people!!! Ha Ha, make way for the mad prophet!

« Women barely have any rights in Islamic countries today »

Could you elaborate, especially in the light of the text about Pakistan women?

«women get stoned to death for adultery»

Could you please tell me exactly in how many countries this happens?

«we know that in Scandinavia, 68% of rapes are carried out by Islamic thugs»

Give me proof of what you are saying, and also tell me where they say they are Muslim or any proof that can indicate they are indeed Muslims, that’s it, they are acting upon Islamic texts. If everyone knows, this shouldn’t be difficult to find.

« And yes, cattle are treated with a dignity that women in Islamic countries never get. Has anyone ever seen a cow wearing a burka? »

What does burka have to do with more or less dignity? Did you read the text about the Muslim girl (the first)?

« And we know that the Muslim community in France is heavily influenced by the likes of the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat. »

Same. Could you tell me upon what statistics, witnesses, intelligence reports… do you base yourself to affirm that ?

Ispanan,

Arch: «Don't you ever stop to think about why there are so many Muslims»

Ispanan:"Conversion? Sexual reproduction?"

Nominal, outward conversions under the threat of the sword or imposition of dhimmitude, or through the Muslim parents (and the society) forcing it on the children. Yes, you admit that the size of today's world population of Muslims is in part due to sexual reproduction. Why then do you try to claim this is due to accepting Mohammad's Koran? Most Muslims, you included, do not even know what's in the Koran or what it says.

Arch:« and so few Jews ?»

Ispanan: "Holocaust?"

Of course, but you neglect to mention the role of Islamists in influencing Hitler. Are you aware that there were Muslim Nazis? Are you aware that Mein Kampf is a very popular book in the Middle Eastern Islamic countries, and even in so-called modern secular Turkey? Are you aware that Hitler is regarded as a hero by many Palestinians?

In any case, Mohammad and his men massacred and Jews and raped Jewish women, and the followers of Mohammad carried on the tradition, killing off as many Jews as they could in the Arabian Peninsula. Population sizes were much smaller back then, but Mohammad and his followers cut down the population base, preventing the Jewish population from growing.

By the way, viz. this "1.3 billion Muslims" figure that you cite: Think about it. Do you know what the penalty is in Islamic countries for saying that one is not a Muslim? This ranges from ostracism to execution. This figure has to be viewd with caution. Secretly, a certain unknown percentage of many of these people may be atheist, agnostic, deist, or other religion, but merely claim to be Muslim outwardly. The history of the existence of many hypocrites goes back to the time of the prophet. Mohammad was obsessed with who among the "Muslims" really believed in him or not. Many verses threaten a severe punishment to the hypocrites, and of course "Allah" threatens them with hell-fire. In addition, many Muslims do not know what's in the Koran, or they deny what's right there in front of them (like you do). Many people are just nominal Muslims who participate in the usual rituals like Ramadan, and hear Koran recitation in Arabic (which most Muslims do not understand), without having much knowledge of Islamic doctrine.

As for your fairy tales about the happy life of the dhimmis under Islam, cite your sources. Islamic apologists, perhaps? Like those who assure us that there is "no coercion in religion"!?

Guess where the Nazis got the idea to put special identifying insignia and clothes on the Jews? From the Islamic states which oppressed the Jews throughout history. (Dhimmitude for the Jews is ordered as one of the options in 9:29--you know, one of those verses I show over and over again, but which you have not yet read!).

Ispanan, "Well, Arch, you have quite an obsession with the verses."

What does that tell you? I'm not a Muslim. You are. And you object to me presenting verses from the Koran! You want to hide the verses. I want to expose the verses as much as possible to the public.

You hope that by complaining about me posting verses again and again, the bad words of the Koran will go away. Ispanan, you're stuck with it. Critics are going to be presenting the bad verses over and over again until the general public finally clues in to what Islam is really all about. If you want to reject the hundreds and hundreds of bad verses, you must find a basis in the Koran to justify your rejection of them. There are no such justifications in the Koran. World-conquering jihad is an obligation, a religious duty for all able-bodied Muslim males, if the non-Muslims refuse to accept Islam.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

Today's verses for Ispanan:

In verses 17:16-17, Allah boasts of having carried out multiple genocides throughout history to wipe out the disbelievers.

Disbelievers who do good works do so in vain, because they are going to hell anyway (5:5, 18:104-106, also 18:30, 33:19, 47:1, 47:32). Their works are as ashes blown away by the wind; they have no control over what they have earned (14:18).

Ispanan,

poster above says «we know that in Scandinavia, 68% of rapes are carried out by Islamic thugs»

"Give me proof of what you are saying, and also tell me where they say they are Muslim or any proof that can indicate they are indeed Muslims, that’s it, they are acting upon Islamic texts. If everyone knows, this shouldn’t be difficult to find."

Okay, you 'asked for it.' (That's what Muslim thugs and clerics--but I repeat myself--say about the infidel women rape victims).

Fjordman writes about the rape epidemic in Sweden, whereby young Muslim men target and rape non-Muslim Swedish girls and women who are regarded as “whores”

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/Fjordman51213.htm

Also take a look at what your jihadist friends are up to in Africa...

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15206
The Rape Jihad
By Robert Spencer

Doctrinal support.

Allows Muslim men to take girl-slaves for sex. (23:1-6, 33:50-52, 4:24, 4:28, 70:25-35)
Abul Kasem’s article covers many of these issues, on sex with captives, Mohammad’s sex with Aisha, et. http://www.islamreview.com/articles/sexinislam.htm

Let's also not forget that, according to the Islamic doctrines, the wife has a religious duty to be available for sex with the husband whenever he wants, even if the woman doesn't want to do it.

The Prophet Allows the Men to Rape the Captive Females (and the Prophet does it too).

After the fall of Khyber, people described the beauty of Safia Bint Hui, the new bride of a slain enemy soldier. The Prophet chose her for himself. On the way to Madina he stopped and had intercourse with her. His companions did not know if she was a wife or a concubine. Later, a veil was drawn between her and the men-folk and they came to know that she was a wife (Bukhari, Book of Sales and Book of Nikah 3:59).

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 93, Number 506:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
That during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relation with them without impregnating them. So they asked the Prophet about coitus interruptus. The Prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection." Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Sa'id saying that the Prophet said, 'No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 137:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3371:
Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): O Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3373:

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported: We took women captives, and we wanted to do 'azl with them. We then asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) about it, and he said to us: Verily you do it, verily you do it, verily you do it, but the soul which has to be born until the Day of judgment must be born.

Practice of Coitus Interruptus, including with slave girl

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 136:
Narrated Jabir:

We used to practice coitus interruptus while the Quran was being revealed. Jabir added: We used to practice coitus interrupt us during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle while the Quran was being Revealed.

Sunan Abu Dawud Book 11, Number 2166:
Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri:

A man said: Apostle of Allah, I have a slave-girl and I withdraw the penis from her (while having intercourse), and I dislike that she becomes pregnant. I intend (by intercourse) what the men intend by it. The Jews say that withdrawing the penis (azl) is burying the living girls on a small scale. He (the Prophet) said: The Jews told a lie. If Allah intends to create it, you cannot turn it away.

Rape victim picture here.

http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12/immigrant-rape-wave-in-sweden.html

Sorry, the picture didn't show on the above link.

BTW, the majority of these thugs are probably Muslim, just like the vast majority of the French rioters are Muslims. This blatant disrespect for non-Muslim woman comes from Islamic culture, which in turn is supported by the Koran, which says that Muslim men in the land of war can TAKE NON-MUSLIM WOMEN AS PROPERTY AND RAPE THEM.

Get your head out of your ass, Ispanan, and you might actually feel some embarrassment.

“And why do you keep mentioning all this crap about abrogation when it is written by scholars who don’t have the support of the majority of Muslims?”

Ispanan – I didn’t know you were a comedian!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

And yes – I write “Pigs Piss Be Upon him – Mohammed” because it’s what he deserves. If you are offended by it – tuff!

Ispanan – You still haven’t answered Granny’s question. Christians only accept the Bible – books outside of this are not authority.

I am still waiting Ispanan for you to quote me verses where Christians are Jews are commanded today to go out and kill unbelievers. You have not quoted anything. You are truly an illiterate tosser. Or like your prophet, is your comprehension ability next to nill? (which is why I assume you follow the Koran). Quoting the whole chapter and book of the OT Ispanan, to get the whole fluent picture of what God in the Bible commanded. I know it’s hard, after all the Koran has absolutely NO fluency what so ever does it??

I mean how many times is the Jewish Exodus from Egypt explained the “holy” Koran??? Oh only about 27 times!!! How many times does it even mention Passover??? That very act of sacred remembrance in Jewish culture??? How many – oh about ZERO!!!! Yes it is a book that deserves to be used as toilet paper!

Please address Archimedes fine questions instead of ‘beating around the bush’.

“I hope nobody who is Christian or Jewish will criticize Muhammad for marrying a “9” years old (which was actually a common practice at the time and place anyway). “

- Ispanan

Why is that Ispanan? Do you have a taste for little 9 year old girls also??? Mohammed supposedly talk directly with the Almighty. So did Jesus Christ. Tell me, which one indulged in CHILD SEX???? ANS: Mohammed (pigs piss upon him). That says about ALL we infidels need to know about how much conversation Mohammed REALLY had with the Almighty.

Christ heals little children. Mohammed just uses them for sex!

« Women barely have any rights in Islamic countries today »

Could you elaborate, especially in the light of the text about Pakistan women?

- Ispanan

Wasn't it you Ispanan who said "that's just one Islamic country". Seems you are now doing the same. Hypocrite!

“I have seen the Bible verses you have quoted on the other thread in some VAIN attempt to somehow defend Islam”

It was not to defend Islam, it was to answer your statement that nowhere in the Bible was any statement to kill unbelievers – so I proved you wrong.-Ispanan

Ummmmm how do these commandments - to a bunch of Jews 3000BC apply to me a Gentile Ispanan??? Go figure. All you have proven is that you can take the Bible WAY out of context. Even if these verses are read literally, it still doesn't command me to go out and KILL unbelievers.

Have you ever considered why such "heavy" rules existed Ispanan?? While the Jewish cousins, the Arabs were nothing more than hunters and gathers, the Jews were a thriving civilization, with schools, they could read and write, they had world best tradesman etc - and were often able to take on the Romans at the peak of their power. Maybe the Jews weren’t into moral relativism back then. After all - look at what it has done to the West today. "All Roads lead to heaven" - including Islam that will violently blast you into hell! As for many of the medical procedures listed in the Torah - they are still used in medicine TODAY. Don't mock what you don't understand Ispanan.

Tell me Ispanan, as a Muslim, without undertaking Jihad, are you definitely going to heaven (72 sluts await you if you Jihad).

“About slavery?
Alas, you resort not only to personal attacks but ...... “

-Ispanan

Actually Ispanan
It was you who started to personally attack other posters here – long before me – go back and look at the blog, that is of course if you are not “retarded” and you can tell the start from finish!

Slavery hey?? Glad you brought it up! Do you have any idea about Jewish slavery? How it differed from every other form of slavery in the world? How every seven years slaves would have to be released? How one could fall into slavery if they owed money to someone to work it off. By your accounts, slaves in the West exist today when people go to jail to “pay their debts to society”.

As for the Jews taking other people as slaves/booty – where is that in the Bible?? There are plenty of verses saying the exact opposite – DO NOT TAKE A THING BUT DESTORY IT. Please quote the Bible passage where it says Jews can take people as booty – like the Koran DOES.

“About slavery?
Alas, you resort not only to personal attacks but also to statements typical of Islamophobes morons such as yourself, repeating the thing about pig urine several times to… what? Offend me? “

-Ispanan

Tell me, why is it that it was in the Islamic world that slavery existed for LONGER than in any other “civilized” society?? The Muslims took up where the Romans left off who often used Slaves as Slaves (see where the word comes from?), making raids into Africa for black slaves. Actually Ispanan, why is it in Arabic that the same word can be used for “Black” and “Slave”??? And you say Malcolm X wasn’t a village idiot????

Why did it take until the 1970’s for Saudi Arabia to officially end what was essentially a 2000 year long run on slavey???? Even the ‘Great Satan’ wrestled with that issue long ago! Tell me Ispanan, who did the “Great Satan” buy slaves off? I’ll tell you who! MUSLIM SLAVE drivers. In a sad way it was a blessing that Islam was so barbaric in Africa using the Africans for slaves – it essentially stopped the spread of Islam to below the top half of Africa. Ever wonder why Christianity, which was a good 1000 years behind Islam in Africa made such headway? Because Christianity wasn’t spread by the sword like Islam. Black Africans aren’t all stupid for Islam.

Also seeing you brought up slavery Ispanan, do you think it was right for Islamic slave owners to be so barbaric that they castrated ALL of their male Black African slaves ??? Why are there so many Haritin people in Middle east and North Africa Ispanan? Did all those slave girls REALLY convert to Islam and willingly have sex with their masters? All these Haratin people in the Middle East is in stark contrast to all the Black Africans in the USA.

Yes Islam is “peace” indeed, insomuch as pigs can fly.

used Slaves as Slaves - should read "Slavs as Slaves" - typo!

Ispanan,

“And why do you keep mentioning all this crap about abrogation when it is written by scholars who don’t have the support of the majority of Muslims?”

Re: Abrogation. Cite me the poll results that show the majority of Muslims reject abrogation.

The Koran is bad enough with abrogation, or without abrogation. But scholars needed to make use of it in order to deal, somehow, with the blatant an unresolvable contradictions that arise in the Koran. However, scholars did not simply invent the principle of abrogation. Rather, the inspiration for it comes directly from the Islamic texts, including the Koran itself.

You keep bungling by accusing me of making stuff up about Islam, only to discover that what I am telling you is just from the Koran. So be it!

Allah says He substitutes an earlier revealed verse by later revealing a substitute. That's what is generally meant by "abrogation," but more exactly the term is "naskh".

___

[Shakir 2:106] Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?
[Yusufali 2:106] None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
[Pickthal 2:106] Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:106]
Aqa Mahdi Puya says:
Naskh, as a Quranic term, means substitution of one current law by another. It is called bada if the substitution is in the law of creation, and naskh if it is in the law of legislation.
___

[Shakir 16:101] And when We change (one) communication for (another) communication, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say: You are only a forger. Nay, most of them do not know.
[Yusufali 16:101] When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.
[Pickthal 16:101] And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.

“Nominal, outward conversions under the threat of the sword or imposition of dhimmitude, or through the Muslim parents (and the society) forcing it on the children.”

Nope – wishful thinking. As an atheist, you need to believe that almost everyone who follows a religion does it because he is forced, but besides you make speculations without apporting any proof. The fact that in some cases one’s ancestors may have been forced the religion upon him doesn’t mean he isn’t sincere with the religion. Just like it is the case of the south American Christians.

If what you say is true, why are the Muslim countries not at war with Occident right now? Why are they not doing Jihad, so they can die and go to paradise with the “72 virgins”? Why is there not a massive flow of Muslims to fight in Irak? Why is there not massive manifestastions of Muslims showing their support for France “Jihad”?

“to mention the role of Islamists in influencing Hitler”

Like if Hitler needed Islam to hate the Jews. You are comical.

“Are you aware that there were Muslim Nazis?”

Are you aware that there were Christian Nazis? Atheists Nazis?

“Are you aware that Hitler is regarded as a hero by many Palestinians?”

No, although I am aware that Sharon is regarded as a hero by many Israelis but also by many people from this site.

“In any case, Mohammad and his men massacred and Jews and raped Jewish women, and the followers of Mohammad carried on the tradition, killing off as many Jews as they could in the Arabian Peninsula. Population sizes were much smaller back then, but Mohammad and his followers cut down the population base, preventing the Jewish population from growing.”

Ramblings and lies, yet again – already explained

“Do you know what the penalty is in Islamic countries for saying that one is not a Muslim? This ranges from ostracism to execution. This figure has to be viewd with caution.”

“As for your fairy tales about the happy life of the dhimmis under Islam, cite your sources. Islamic apologists, perhaps?”

Why would I bother? I could quote hundreds of sources, but you would say they are all from Muslims or Islam apologists. When someone writes something positive about Islam, they are Islam apologists; when someone gives only negative things, they are only being “objective”, “exposing the truth”

True sadly, although this is limited to a few countries (in some of them I think the law is not applied in practice). Anyway, what about the ostracism from the familiars of Occidental people who convert to Islam, mainly conservative – Christian people?

“Guess where the Nazis got the idea to put special identifying insignia and clothes on the Jews? From the Islamic states which oppressed the Jews throughout history.”

Yes, well, and Christian states, like Spain, did that also. And for the last time, DID YOU READ MY POST ABOUT DHIMMI LAW, OR NOT?

AND WHY DO YOU KEEP ME TELLING ABOUT THE VERSES WHEN I TOLD A HUNDRED TIME THEY ONLY APPLIED TO SPECIFIC OR HISTORICAL CONTEXTS?

“Fjordman writes about the rape epidemic in Sweden, whereby young Muslim men target and rape non-Muslim Swedish girls and women who are regarded as “whores”

Well, some Occidental conservatives judges also tell women who wear short skirts also ask for rape. Does that mean Christianity endorse rapes? And you didn’t answer my question: show me proof they are indeed devout Muslims who act upon Islamic texts. And one little thing: IF AS YOU SAID, MANY OR MOST MUSLIMS DON’T KNOW ABOUT THE KORAN, HOW IT IS THAT THESE RAPERS ACT UPON IT, OR UPON A HADITH THAT THEY NEVER HEARD ABOUT, SINCE THEY DON’T EVEN KNOW ABOUT THE KORAN?

“the majority of these thugs are probably Muslim, just like the vast majority of the French rioters are Muslims”

Once again, show me proof that the “vast majority” are Muslims

AND ONCE AGAIN, DID YOU READ MY EXPLANATION ABOUT THE MOTIVES OF THE RIOTERS I GAVE IN THE FRANCE RIOTS THREAD?

Blacks are the group who commits the more crimes in the USA, are they all Muslims?

And why did you post this picture? Do you expect me to fell guilty about that?

“Re: Abrogation. Cite me the poll results that show the majority of Muslims reject abrogation.”

This becomes funnier each time. First you say the majority of Muslims support scholars who accept abrogation without bringing any proof, and when I tell you they don’t, you ask me to SHOW YOU PROOF THEY DON’T. Basically, this would be like a cop arresting me for murder and then asking me to prove it wasn’t me. No further comment.

“Ispanan – I didn’t know you were a comedian!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ”

...Glad you found it funny :)

“Wasn't it you Ispanan who said "that's just one Islamic country".”

Euh… no, I didn’t say that.

“Tell me, why is it that it was in the Islamic world that slavery existed for LONGER than in any other “civilized” society??”

Once you bring me proof of this, I will tell you.

“…making raids into Africa for black slaves”
Euh… didn’t Europeans do that, also?

“why is it in Arabic that the same word can be used for “Black” and “Slave”???”

Why it is that the only racist-religious Muslim sect is… BLACK?

Why is it in English there is a despective word to call blacks (nigger)???

“Why did it take until the 1970’s for Saudi Arabia to officially end what was essentially a 2000 year long run on slavey????”

Why did it take until the 1960’s for USA to officially end the segregation laws in the hard-core Christian south????

“Tell me Ispanan, who did the “Great Satan” buy slaves off? I’ll tell you who! MUSLIM SLAVE drivers. In a sad way it was a blessing that Islam was so barbaric in Africa using the Africans for slaves”

AND WHO BOUGHT THEM??? MUSLIM AMERICANS???? ARE YOU PUTTING CULPABILITY ON MUSLIMS FOR SELLING THEM BUT NOT ON AMERICANS FOR BUYING THEM????

“Why are there so many Haritin people in Middle east and North Africa Ispanan?” Did all those slave girls REALLY convert to Islam and willingly have sex with their masters?

why are there so many Black and mid-black people in America, 3rdtimelucky? Did all those slave girls REALLY convert to Christianity and willingly have sex with their masters?

“I am still waiting Ispanan for you to quote me verses where Christians are Jews are commanded today to go out and kill unbelievers.”

As for the Jews taking other people as slaves/booty – where is that in the Bible??

Well I see you remain in your state of denial. This is not surprising: for your faith to have still a meaning for you, you must deny this which yourself recognize it is true. At least I have no fear to recognize what is written in my holy book, because it has an explanation; what is written in yours don’t. you keep denying the verses about women, slavery etc. that are also in the new Testament. You keep ignoring the verse about death penalty for blaspheming the name of God.

Ezek. 9:5 And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have you pity. SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAIDS AND LITTLE CHILDREN, AND WOMEN.

[Num. 31:1] And the Lord said unto Moses, "Avenge the children of the Mid'-an'ites.. They warred against the Mid'-i-an'ites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slay all the males. And they took all women as captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. Moses said, "HAVE YOU SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE? NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, AND KILL EVERY WOMAN that has known a man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.

ALL THE YOUNG GIRLS WHO HAVE NOT KNOWN A MAN BY LYING WITH HIM KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES

If I understand well, you accepted that the Bible is the only valable book of Christianity. So, as yourself seem to accept it, you are the adept of a religion whose followers at one point where commanded by God to kill women and keep children for sex-slaves, after sacrificing some of them for your god’s paedophilic orgy in the skies. Is that so, 3rdtimelucky? DO YOU ACCEPT THAT, 3RD TIME LUCKY?

DO YOU ACCEPT IT? DO YOU ACCEPT THAT YOUR GOD AT ONE POINT ORDERED THE SLAUGHTER AND SLAVERY OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS? YES OR NO? ANSWER ME

“There are plenty of verses saying the exact opposite – DO NOT TAKE A THING BUT DESTORY IT”
SO ARE YOU SAYING THIS IS BETTER TO DESTROY A THING THAN TO TAKE IT?

Here are revelating writing from some rabbis clarifying what “young girls who have not known a man by lying with him” mean:

Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And one can be liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating, to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer [of what lies beneath]. If she was married to a priest, she may eat food in the status of priestly rations. If one of those who are unfit for marriage with her had intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If any of those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her had intercourse with her, he is put to death on her account, but she is free of responsibility

[M.Nid. 5:4].
Sanhedrin 7/55B (Ibid., vol.XXIII.B, Tractate Sanhedrin 1984, 150. See also vol.XIX.A, Tractate Qiddushin 10a-b, 1992, 33.)

R. Nahman bar Isaac said. "They made the decree that a gentile child should be deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15], so that an Israelite child should not hang around with him and commit pederasty [as he does]."
For said R. Zira, "I had much anguish with R. Assi, and R. Assi with R. Yohanan, and R. Yohanan with R. Yannai, and R. Yannai with R. Nathan b. Amram, and R. Nathan b. Amram with Rabbi [on this matter]: 'From what age is a gentile child deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15]'? And he said to me, 'On the day on which he is born.' But when I came to R. Hiyya, he said to me, 'From the age of nine years and one day.' And when I came and laid the matter before Rabbi, he said to me, 'Discard my reply and adopt that of R. Hiyya, who declared, "From what age is a gentile child deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15]? From the age of nine years and one day."
[37A] Since he is then suitable for having sexual relations, he also is deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [of Lev.15]."
Said Rabina, "Therefore a gentile girl who is three years and one day old, since she is then suitable to have sexual relations, also imparts uncleanness of the flux variety."

Abodah Zarah 36B-37A Ibid., vol.XXV.A, Tractate Abodah Zarah, 1991, 168.

The basis for these rulings is the following Mishnaic passage of Tractate Niddah:
A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. "A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse," the words of R. Meir. And sages say, "Three years and one day old."
And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And they are liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer. If she was married to a priest, she eats heave offering. If one of those who are unfit for marriage has intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If one of all those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her did so, they are put to death on her account. But she is free of responsibility.
If she is younger than that age, intercourse with her is like putting a finger in the eye.

(Mishnah Niddah 5:4) Neusner, The Talmud of Babylonia. A complete outline, Part IV. The Division of Holy Things. B. Number 37. 1995, 704.

Do you feel admiration for the ancient Jewish civilization, 3rdtimelucky? Do you accept that God oredered the raping of children, 3rdtimelucky? DO YOU HAVE A TASTE FOR 3 YEARS OLD GIRLS 3RDTIMELUCKY?

Ispanan,

"IF AS YOU SAID, MANY OR MOST MUSLIMS DON’T KNOW ABOUT THE KORAN, HOW IT IS THAT THESE RAPERS ACT UPON IT, OR UPON A HADITH THAT THEY NEVER HEARD ABOUT, SINCE THEY DON’T EVEN KNOW ABOUT THE KORAN?"

Simple, as I already stated, it comes from the Koran, is passed down through the culture. It is a custom. The home countries of the immigrants in question (or their parents) in this case are mostly Islamic countries. Lots of Muslims follow Islamic customs without having read the Koran (e.g., in rural Pakistan, there is a high level of illiteracy, but Islamic traditions based on the Koran are followed). They don't have to read a word of the Koran to follow the customs that are built into the culture over the centuries. Some of them of course may read the Koran. Many more may listen to their cleric's views about the infidel women.

If you read those articles, you will see that these young Muslim men are taught by their culture to view the non-Muslim women as whores. These mostly Muslim young men view the Muslim women as chaste and respectable, but the non-Muslim women are to be "f--ked to pieces" (see the article). This is totally the opposite of what is accepted in modern secular western society, which teaches respect toward women generally.

You bring up the example of the Christian conservatives, but this is irrelevant because, in this case, it is the immigrant predominantly Muslim-background men that are contributing to most of the total rapes, even though these mostly Muslims are only a relatively small part of the population. The predominantly Muslim males are raping non-Muslim European women at a rate that is several times higher than the rate at which they are raping Muslim women.

In any case, I cited evidence, now you cite yours with regard to these alleged Christian conservative rapists.

Scandinavia is simply one area of the world where Muslim men raping non-Muslim women, but this is happening in numerous European countries, and of course is happening in Australia. And the Muslim rapes of the women in the African countries mentioned in the Spencer article are very severe. Of course, in the early 1970s, in Bangladesh, Muslims killed approximately 2-3 miliion people and in the process managed to systematically rape 200,000-300,000 women. Abul Kasem has an article on this topic at faithfreedom.

I don't suppose you are going to respond to Mohammad's rapes, and the mass-rapes on the battlefield, as described in the Hadith? Or will you discuss the approval of taking women captives as sex slaves, as mentioned in the Koran? (As cited in my above post?).

Ispanan,

"Why would I bother? I could quote hundreds of sources"

You make lots of excuses, and lots of claims about what you could cite, but you never deliver it.

Arch:“Are you aware that Hitler is regarded as a hero by many Palestinians?”

Ispanan:"No,"

I suggest you read more and post less!

"As an atheist, you need to believe that almost everyone who follows a religion does it because he is forced,"

I don't assume that. You are making this up.

"but besides you make speculations without apporting any proof."

You believe in Allah and the validity of the prophet Mohammad, even though you have zero evidence to support that, and there is plenty of evidence that shows the Koran is false (see my previous posts).

I cite the Islamic texts to support what I claim about the Islamic texts. (e.g., Mohammad and his men killing the Jews and raping the Jewish women. It's in the Hadith and Sira).

You hardly ever cite sources, and when you do, you don't even cite verse numbers, and you don't cite the verses properly and completely.

You make idiotic arguments, such as trying to claim that Islam is valid and the prophet is valid because 1.3 billion people believe it. This is a classic fallacy called argument from popularity. Santa Claus is also popularly believed in, Ispanan.

"The fact that in some cases one’s ancestors may have been forced the religion upon him doesn’t mean he isn’t sincere with the religion."

Sincerity is not the issue. He may sincerely believe a falsehood. And you do not object to his ancestors being forced?

Ispanan,

"Anyway, what about the ostracism from the familiars of Occidental people who convert to Islam, mainly conservative – Christian people?"

It's more severe in Islam; the apostate even loses his/her property in some cases. This partly is because the Koran says they have lost what they have earned in the world.

Also note how you talk about ostracism, but not the death penalty and death threats. When Christians start issuing the death penalty and make death threats for people leaving the faith (today, Ispanan, today), then I might be more concerned. I'm not worried about Christians because they don't do this.

But if some Christians did do this, I believe other Christians would work to stop that practice.

Muslims have been reluctant to do anything about the harsh apostacy laws. This is a crucial problem (that, and the defeat of the blasphemy laws/ laws regarding speaking against islam, Allah, the prophet).

Only Islam today has these harsh laws about blasphemy and apostacy, and it is because the sharia is based on the Koran and Hadith, based on words of "Allah" and reports of the words and deeds of the prophet. Also, Muslims as a group are not willing to work against the hard-core traditionalists. Until someone faces up to the hard-core traditionalists, there will be killing and persecution of the apostates and critics. Finally, non-Muslims have been unwilling to take a strong stand against these hard-liners, so now we are feeling the consequences as well.

Ispanan,

I'm moving on to new threads. I suggest you read the Koran before responding to me further. If you want a response from me, you'll have to get my attention at a new thread.

Ezek. 9:5 And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have you pity. SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAIDS AND LITTLE CHILDREN, AND WOMEN.

- Where does this say take the booty? Can’t you read? Like I said –God commanded the Israelites to take NOTHING – destroy everything so that the land of Israel would not be corrupted in years to come.

"Num. 31:1] And the Lord said unto Moses, "Avenge the children of the Mid'-an'ites.. They warred against the Mid'-i-an'ites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slay all the males. And they took all women as captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. Moses said, "HAVE YOU SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE? NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, AND KILL EVERY WOMAN that has known a man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.
ALL THE YOUNG GIRLS WHO HAVE NOT KNOWN A MAN BY LYING WITH HIM KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES

DO YOU ACCEPT IT? DO YOU ACCEPT THAT YOUR GOD AT ONE POINT ORDERED THE SLAUGHTER AND SLAVERY OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS? YES OR NO? ANSWER ME"

Yes - of course God of the Bible has wiped out people. We all sin, no one is innocent. He is not a touchy feely pollictically correct God Ispanan. If he was, we wouldn't have nailed him to a cross if he made us so comfortable with our sin. Actually Ispanan the Chapter also shows Moshe’s disgust in that the army did not kill everything (verse14-15). Yes Numbers says to take booty of those women who did not sleep with a man. Where does it explicitly say, as it does in the Koran, that these women are to be used for sex? Against their will? Again Ispanan – where are these verses, commanding a Jew or Christian TODAY, to go and kill the tribes of the Mid'-i-an'ites??? Where???? Numbers 31 is a lot more specific rather than the Koranic verses of “kill the unbeliever wherever you find them” – or any of the other 110 war verses through the Koran. It is also Moshe who commands the people to keep the girls – after he explains that they were part of the reason for the Jews wandering in the past. Moshe is not without sin himself - that is shown in the Bible time and time again.
So your point is, that men are sinful? Well done, glad to see you understand some Biblical concepts.

“So, as yourself seem to accept it, you are the adept of a religion whose followers at one point where commanded by God to kill women and keep children for sex-slaves, after sacrificing some of them for your god’s paedophilic orgy in the skies. Is that so, 3rdtimelucky? DO YOU ACCEPT THAT, 3RD TIME LUCKY?”

Ispanan - NO WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT HUMAN SACRIFICE WAS MADE IN NUMBERS. Where exactly did it say that? Quote it to me. It said that they were offered to the Lord. It does not say that they were Human sacrifice! Part of the reason these tribes were wiped out WAS BECAUSE THEY DID ENGUAGE in HUMAN SACRIFICE – just LIKE ISLAM DOES TODAY WITH SUCICIDE BOMBERS!!. In fact verse 31: 30-31 reads “from the half that goes to the people of Isra’el, you are to take one fiftieth of the persons, and of the cattle, donkeys and sheep, that is, of all the livestock; and give them to the L’vi’im taking care of the tabernacle of Adonai”. Moshe and El’azar the cohen did as Adoni had ordered. How did they offer these people to God?? – by giving them to the LEVI – obviously you know far less than I do about Jewish culture of the Torah. They did NOT sacrifice them! The Bible doesn’t even say that! Keep twisting the Bible words though, it's what Mohammed did!

Verse 31: 50 We have brought an offering for Adoni, what every man has obtained in the way of gold jewelry –armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings and belts – to make attonement for ourselves before Adoni.”

- No women offered for sacrifice here Ispanan??? You read a lot inbetween the lines that isn’t there.

How do you know that the portion that went to God did not serve in the Temple? How do you know that the portion of booty that was served to God in the Temple was not used to help the poor??? (as often happened in times of no corruption)???

DO YOU ACCEPT IT? DO YOU ACCEPT THAT YOUR GOD AT ONE POINT ORDERED THE SLAUGHTER AND SLAVERY OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS? YES OR NO? ANSWER ME

Of course God has ordered the slaying of people. Nobody is innocent Ispanan – we all sin. Unlike the Koran the Bible makes frequent mention of man’s sin, it’s consequences and resulting judgement. It even shows all of the Biblical heros with sin, with the exception of Christ taking our sin. We all die because of our sin – or didn’t you know that????

“God to kill women and keep children for sex-slaves, after sacrificing some of them for your god’s paedophilic orgy in the skies. Is that so, 3rdtimelucky? DO YOU ACCEPT THAT, 3RD TIME LUCKY?”

- again – where does the Bible say they were offered as a living human sacrifice? Fact is it doesn’t. Nice try though to twist the words of the Bible, you take after your Profit well!

“SO ARE YOU SAYING THIS IS BETTER TO DESTROY A THING THAN TO TAKE IT?”

- are you trying to dam me if I do, or dam me if I don’t??? But yes – it is better to have a sinful thing removed and have eternal life, than to be corrupted by it and have eternal death. But again, where am I commanded to “kill unbelievers where ever I find them” again???

“Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse” –BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA

I’m not Jewish – in fact the only Jewish writings I believe in is the Bible. Spew out verses written by man all you like Ispanan, uninspired by God all you like, just like the Koran. In fact the Koran has more in common with those Jewsish texts you love quoting than either of the OT or NT of the Bible. Jews are sinners also. Well done in proving that – are you a scientist or something???

“Do you feel admiration for the ancient Jewish civilization, 3rdtimelucky? Do you accept that God oredered the raping of children, 3rdtimelucky? DO YOU HAVE A TASTE FOR 3 YEARS OLD GIRLS 3RDTIMELUCKY?”

Touchy Touchy – hit a raw nerve did I????? No, I have a taste for the Jewish civilization portrayed in the Bible – not some ramblings of a Jewish Rabbi who has rejected that Bible. And yes, I know they did some horrible things, following in the footsteps of the Gentile tribes around them - the Bible tells me so!

“ Do you accept that God oredered the raping of children, 3rdtimelucky?”

No I don’t. The Bible does not say that these slaves were used as sex slaves – but what is your point anyway? It still doesn’t take away from how the Koran frequently justifies sex with slaves. The Jewish culture had a very different form of slavery to the rest of the world. Something you don’t comprehend. That said, I’m sure some of the girls were taken advantage of. That doesn’t prove that YHWH approves – just that all men – including Jews are sinners. You are trying to condem the Bible becuase it shows people as sinners. We know that already. Pity the Koran cannot show the same level of self critique.

Ispanan I live in 2006. Christ left me with parting verses as to what I am to do and not to do. If you can show me where he commanded me to KILL UNBELIEVERS WHEREVER I FIND THEM, as does the Koran, then I will gladly become a fellow Muslim, and admit that the Bible is wrong.

You nor I did not live back then, so we cannot fully judge. Yes the OT is full of some harsh things. But them again, you do not understand the Nephilam, so I do not expect you understand some of those genocidal passages in the OT. Or the fact that those tribes frequently attacked the Jews. Note though, the Jews have never warred OUTSIDE OF ISRAEL. This sadly, is something the Muslims, who try to use the same defense, cannot say. Muslims war all over the globe in so-called war of defense.

“If you want a response from me, you'll have to get my attention at a new thread”

He He of course. Goodbye then.

“Where does this say take the booty? Can’t you read?”

When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.

Can’t you read?

“Where does it explicitly say, as it does in the Koran, that these women are to be used for sex”

Noooo I guess they took them for domestic work, and they adopted the poor orphans, right? How much are you willing to justify your grotesque God and your grotesque Ancient Jewish civilization? Why do you think they only spared the virgin girls?

And where does it say in the Kuran they do, please?

“NO WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT HUMAN SACRIFICE WAS MADE IN NUMBERS”

You need to deny what is evident in front of your eyes, yet again:

16,000 people, of which the tribute for the LORD was 32.”

“Part of the reason these tribes were wiped out WAS BECAUSE THEY DID ENGUAGE in HUMAN SACRIFICE – just LIKE ISLAM DOES TODAY WITH SUCICIDE BOMBERS!!.”

And they were punished for making human sacrifices by being totally wiped off the map or enslaved? And the funniest thing is God, after ordering to destroy the cities and enslave / kill it’s inhabitants, said it was for the israelites to not imitate the “horrible things they had done”!!!

“How do you know that the portion of booty that was served to God in the Temple was not used to help the poor??? (as often happened in times of no corruption)???”

LOL Riiiiiiiiight. And the men and little boys killed also served to help the poors?

“The Jewish culture had a very different form of slavery to the rest of the world.”

Explain me please. Im really curious.

“But again, where am I commanded to “kill unbelievers where ever I find them” again???”

DID YOU READ THAT ABOUT KILLING THOSE WHO BLASPHEME THE NAME OF GOD?

And let’s not forget all those verses about eating one’s children or selling them as sex slaves, or throwng babies against stone, or the verses about slavery both in the OT and the NT.
You desperately try to defend your grotesque book and your grotesque “God” saying how the Jews were justified in committing genocide, slavery and rape because their ennemies had “sinned”. And the Jews didn’t sin! Tell me one thing, if the ennemies of the Jews sinned so many times and this is why they were exterminated, why the Jews, who sinned so many times as well as the Bible recognize, weren’t killed by God too?

The fact that you try to justify this is revelating. If your god ordered you to do the same things now, would you do it??? How can you say your god that he is good, merciful, and all this crap when he ordered his “chosen people” to kill innocents, enslave and destroy? And then how can you blame Muhammad for “enslaving” or “having sex with a 9 years old” WHEN YOUR OWN “GOD” ORDERED THE SAME THINGS TIME AGO? WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? That your god ordered it longer ago? What if I tell you the people Muhammad “enslaved” was sinful and deserved to be enslaved? Would you accept it, then?

This is really funny. The bible was modified so the Jews could pretend that their crimes were actually ordered by God. Crimes committed by a depraved and grotesque civilization who engaged in slavery, genocide, racism, and raping of 3 years old children. NOWHERE IN THE QURAN IT IS COMMANDED TO KILL OR HARM INNOCENTS. Because the true God would never order to harm any innocent, but at the contrary equal the killing of one to the killing of all the humanity. He also let clair that he had given the true and clair message to the Jews but still “they acted wrongly in the land” – they acted against the command of God and corrupted the holy texts to suit their purposes.

Do you get why so many Christian people converted to Islam? Because they realize the true benevolent God would never *command* his “chosen” people to commit all the crimes they want under the pretext their ennemies “sinned” and not punish them. And don’t tell me they were forced, what about the Occidental converts?

"The fact that you try to justify this is revelating. If your god ordered you to do the same things now, would you do it??? "

Ispanan - you twist the Bible beyond belief. Unlike the Koran the Bible is VERY specific. It has Moses telling Joshua or whoever to lead a party against this group or that group, within the bounds of Israel. You say the violence in the Koran is specific (even though you deny it later on in this thread - go back and read what you have said). Show me these specific details in the Koran, and don't quote the Koran and then say, "Oh this belongs to this period, or that period". Show me, in black and white in the Koran, where it is like the Bible, being VERY specific about whom is to be attacked, why they are being attacked, what cities etc, who is leading the "charge". etc etc. You can't can you??

I don't need proof from you. And yes I can read, like many of my fellow Christians worldwide who did not commit:

-9/11
-7/7
-Madrid
-Bali 1
-Bali 2
- Invade Africa for slaves that still goes on today in the Sudan.
-Aust. Embassy bombings
-hacking little school girl heads off during Ramadan because they are Christian.
-Blowing up women and children in the name of Allah in Israel, Eqypt, Jordan.
- Forcing religion of Islam on people in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Jordan, The "West Bank", Saudi Arabia and any other Muslim country you wish to mention.

Muslims did these things, with the Koran to back them up. In fact they make little videos quoting the Koran before they go off and do Allah's bidding.

"The bible was modified so the Jews could pretend that their crimes were actually ordered by God"

- I really pity you.

Again - I am waiting for you to show me where these verses are that said that these people were murdered, "sacrificed" for YHWH. There are pleanty of verses in the Koran showing such things. People did serve in the Jewish Temple you know - shock horror!

Slaves in Israel - in short they were released every 7th year. Something no other civilisation did.

If Islam is so great, especially compared to the Jewish one, why then has Islam produced nothing but bloodshed? And the Jews are responsible for winning 25% of the Nobel prizes for invention and science with only 2% of the worlds population? I assume you will say the Jews steal it all off the Muslims!

"or the verses about slavery both in the OT and the NT."

- I never denied that there are verses about slavery in the OT. But get off your highhorse Ispanan - the Muslims invaded Africa in 600AD - the "cargo" they took back to the ME - SLAVES. The "evil" Euro's didn't start that until 1000 years later. Saudi Arabia did not end this practice (officially) until 1965. You talk words, yet your co-religionists do the exact opposite in your name.

- The slave verses in the NT are all about being good to both slave and master. NOt about taking slaves. Again you twist the Bible.

"NOWHERE IN THE QURAN IT IS COMMANDED TO KILL OR HARM INNOCENTS"

- Now I know you are really full of BS. I suppose it all comes down to the definition of "innocent" doesn't it??!!

- Oh and the Bible DOES show the Jews sinning - over and over and over again. Funny how the Koran never shows this humanity in the child sex manic Mohammed.

- Oh and while this "evil" Jewish civilisation was around for 1000's of years BC, your Arabic moon worshipping brethren were drifting around the desert.

- If God cammanded me to do something - YES I WOULD FOLLOW HIS COMMANDS. That said they would NEVER contradict the Bible. Unlike Allah YHWH cannot go back on his word. So I don't have to worry about God telling me to commit crimes or take booty. I AM STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE WHERE JESUS COMMANDS ME TO DO SUCH THINGS. I FOLLOW JESUS - NOT MOSES, NOT JOSHUA AND DEFINITLEY NOT IDIOT MOHAMMED.

I am also still waiting for you to show me where God commands me to repeat these OT things outside of the bounds of Israel. Seems you can't do it. Maybe you should go and read the Bible a bit more. Maybe also you would understand the OT passages more if you read of on the literal interpretation of the Nephal. On the giants that inhabited the land (like Golitath(sp)). How these Nephal were the reason for the flood. How all Nephal were male born to "daughters of men".

But you, like many Christians, do not understand these strange parts of the Bible.

- I am still waiting for you to explain why the Koran repeats the story of the Exodus over over and over (27 times) yet fails to even mention the climax of the whole story - the Passover. Maybe it was omitted because of Mohammed's sinful HATE of the Jews. Maybe it was omitted because the Koran HAS ERRORS, rather than the Bible. Maybe you Muslims think that the most powerful nation on earth at the time, the Egyptians, just let the Jews waltz on out. Those Zionists!!!

"Crimes committed by a depraved and grotesque civilization who engaged in slavery, genocide, racism, and raping of 3 years old children."

I am still waiting for you to show me, in the Bible where it says it's OK to rape 3 year old children. Also while you are at it, show me where Christians, in the name of Christianity do this, using scripture as their source of inspiration (as opposed to outright sin).

Show me the verses - word for word, not with your twisted interpretation of them. Besides - this is Jihad watch. Why? Because Muslims worldwide are doing the very things that you say are inspired by the Bible, yet they say their inspiration is the Koran. Wake up and smell the roses Ispanan. I also suggest you go to K House Online and look up Nephal. Then you will understand the horrors in the OT better.

Unless you can show me, in a literal sense what I am asking for, then I figure you can't show me at all and you have lost yourself a potential convert to Islam.