Spengler in Asia Times (thanks to all who sent this in) tells truths that cannot be told in American public discourse, making points we have made here many times:
Islam is the unexploded bomb of global politics. US foreign policy - the only foreign policy there is, for the United States is the only superpower - proceeds from the hope that a modern and democratic Islam will emerge from the ruins of Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Through democratic institutions, Washington believes, the long-marginalized Shi'ites will adapt to religious pluralism. Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani's Islam, fixed in amber since the High Middle Ages, will metamorphose into something like American mainline Protestantism.Alas, the available facts suggest that the opposite result will ensue: more freedom equals more fundamentalism. Not the secular Shi'ite parties but the pro-Iranian religious parties dominate the Iraqi polls. In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood quadrupled its vote despite heavy-handed measures to intimidate its supporters; Hamas threatens to displace Fatah in the Palestinian elections this month; Hezbollah has become the strongest electoral as well as military force in Lebanon; and, most important of all, Mahmud Ahmadinejad crushed a more pragmatic opponent in last June's Iranian presidential elections.
Islam was founded as a theocracy, such that the Western innovation of church-state separation remains alien to its culture. Is it possible for Islam to reform? A negative answer implies that Ahmadinejad's January 5 call for world domination falls within the Islamic mainstream. He told an audience of religious students, "We must believe in the fact that Islam is not confined to geographical borders, ethnic groups and nations. It's a universal ideology that leads the world to justice. We don't shy away from declaring that Islam is ready to rule the world. We must prepare ourselves to rule the world." The previous day, the London Guardian leaked a European intelligence report detailing Iran's efforts to acquire technology required to build nuclear weapons. A very few writers, including this one, have rejected the possibility of Islamic reformation, to the stony contempt of universally accepted opinion.
Now Pope Benedict XVI has let it be known that he does not believe Islam can reform. This we learn from the transcript of a January 5 US radio interview with one of Benedict's students and friends, Father Joseph Fessio, SJ, the provost of Ave Maria University in Naples, Florida, posted on the Asia Times Online forum by a sharp-eyed reader. For the pope to refute the fundamental premise of US policy is news of inestimable strategic importance, yet a Google News scan reveals that not a single media outlet has taken notice of what Fessio told interviewer Hugh Hewitt last week. No matter: still and small as Benedict's voice might be, it carries further than earthquake and whirlwind.
Read it all. Yes, you heard me.
I haven't followed "Spengler" in a long time and I wonder if his stance on Islam has changed. He has always been an Islam skeptic, but more of the Daniel Pipes variety and not of the Robert Spencer kind. I remember reading his posts on the ATimes message board and I remember him distinctly saying that there was nothing wrong with Islam, nothing inherently bad about it, but he did recognize the challenge it posed to Christianity and a dying Europe. He's a big fan of B16 so maybe this has convinced him to reconsider.
Anyways, I'm glad the ATimes has picked up this interview. This is the type of discourse that should be happening in Europe and America: Is Islamic reform (the Western definition of reform) possible? The more we keep talking about it and the more we delve into the foundational texts and history, the sooner we will realize that it can never happen. And the snake-oil salesmen like Tariq Ramadan and Reza Aslan will have to peddle their taqiyya elsewhere. No more interfaith dialogue with Islam. How about a multifaith critique of Islam instead? That's what I would like to see.
Islamic texts and mullahs are open and forthright in their views on infidels. It is our leaders - who claim to "have a heart" for muslims who are dishonest to us and pretend that the problem is non-existent or smaller than it actually is.
Scream this from the rooftops, yes. But there will still be those that believe that we are nothing but cranks, bigots, and Islamaphobes. Only a catastrophic event will change some minds --- and even then, America will be blamed for provoking the attack.
Blue Scarf Society Grassroots Report
Last night we had our first official grassroots anti-Islam meeting in my home town and decided a number of things.
1) We adopted the blue scarf as a symbol of the resistance. We suggest they be a light blue similar to that in the Israeli flag.
2) We decided to put up a webpage to facilitate these kinds of meetings across the country and internationally. Volunteers will be able to send in a place and time for meetings to take place. We suggest a public place so that no names or phone numbers need to given on the site. People will know each other by the blue scarves.
3) We decided we would make suggestions for activism and provide downloadable pamphlets and posters, but we won’t attempt to direct it. Ideas included picketing the movie “Paradise Now,” or similar outrages, giving talks and holding debates locally to raise awareness of Islam.
It was a fantastic meeting. We hope to facilitate hundreds of similar meetings around the country and to provide a place for feedback and suggestions.
More to follow...
Bit like a whisper it may sound, but the Danish Jyllands-Posten episode is continues on small fire. This is a school example of cowardice by the Swedish Aftonbladet: http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/telegram/0,1082,66373507_852__,00.html
The tiny news is on swedish, but "kristna norska dagstidningen Magazinet " means norwegian christian daily newspaper Magazinet.
Here's the norwegian paper:
http://www.magazinet.no/default.asp?menuid=280&linktype=2&linkid=21839
It is pure chickenshit by Aftonbladet with millions of daily hits - and paper version sells 500 000 day - to not support Jyllands-Posten but make this PC crap: look-we-are-PC-but-see-there-are-others-who-aren't. In other words, a bit chickenshit paper is trying to make tiny local papers to do the dirty work in case of freedom of speech.
Spengler was one of the first columnists I remember reading at a time when subjects such as European extinction where being addressed solely in internet message boards. He seems to be in touch with reality, which is a lot more than what can be said of most politicians.
"Ideas included picketing the movie “Paradise Now,” or similar outrages, giving talks and holding debates locally to raise awareness of Islam."
The problem with non-fanatic westerners is that it is extremely dificult to mobilise the guy in the street, without you ending up looking like a Jehova's witness.
If any of you do decide to picket any conference, film, or other, please do it only if you have mobilised a large enough number. It is somewhat pathetic when a protest doesn't manage to drag more than six or seven protesters from their winter slippers and hot chocolate, and those protesting end up looking like loonies.
They best way to do this properly is to point the way to useful books and sites without tryin gto put any ideas in the heads of the target audience. Pleople aren't stupid, and with access to the right information they will in most cases make the right decisions. But it takes both time and courage: time to erase the PC indoctrination, and courage to choose the red pill (reality) instead of the blue one (fantasy).
Pamphlets sound like an excellent idea: they don't expose you, and they allow the reader access to easy-to-read/hard-hitting information. I'll give you an example: you could write pamphlets protesting against the sentence that will execute that 17 year old iranian girl quasi-rape victim (FaithFreedom has been all over it). After a small paragraph, a link to FaithFreedom and JihadWatch with suffice.
The important is that this waking-up process takes time. I have had arguments with good friends where I had to be careful with what I said (particularly how I said it) because they weren't ready to listen to the truth. So one has to take baby-steps, show them information, ask for their opinion and LET THEM decide for themselves.
Ali Sina from FaithFreedom learned this a long time ago (probably from personal experience) which is probably why he had the simply brilliant idea of using Koran quotes to explain the behaviour of the fanatics. Any non-Muslim reading his site will realise that the Bible and the Koran are hardly the same kind of book.
Just two things: 1.Islam cant/wont reform.
2.No one can convince me that 'God' dictated the Quran to Mohammad, directly or through an intermediary like Gabriel. The very essence of the Quranic essence, is essentially faulty.
Someone once said that a bad tree cant produce good fruit. Islam is a tree with root rot. Anchored in lies and distortions, it cannot produce good fruit. It cant produce a saint or truly saintly person because saintliness requires large ammounts of 'Love'. Islam produces large ammounts of attack, but little or no love. Love and attack cant exist in the same timespace at the same time. For the saintly, love is dominant, for the muslim it is attack.
Since love is superior to attack, all religions that stress love for all, are superior to those that dont. Islam is one that does not. If it is true that 'God is Love', then loveless Islam is also Godless. As such there is nothing here to respect, or admire, or to give one iota of credibility. To believe that the Quran is God talking through Mohammad is to fall into disarray...united we stand, in disarray we fall...Rebecca and group above have the right idea...
The Danish Mohammed cartoon fiasco has been recieving attention on conservative talk radio here in the US.
Thus far, no one has been in favor of Muslim inspired censorship.
Gardjola Outpost on the West, a Maltese based blog, put me onto Hugh Hewitt's interview with Fr Fessioon 6 January 2006 and provided excellent links, in the comments section, concerning the Pope's position on Israel.
http://www.gardjola.org/#Pondering_Hard_Realities
"For the pope to refute the fundamental premise of US policy is news of inestimable strategic importance, yet a Google News scan reveals that not a single media outlet has taken notice of what Fessio told interviewer Hugh Hewitt last week. No matter: still and small as Benedict's voice might be, it carries further than earthquake and whirlwind."
Well put Mr Spencer.
Blogs may be our salvation in this new world. Certainly it won't come from MSM.
cruzado, when it comes to islam I have had one scenario in mind, though it would demand willpower not detected by todays politicians. This would mean that one simply outlaws some practices promised in Quaran. No matter what Quaran says about polygamy, it's illegal here, and we will enforce the law.
Islam is a line-textual daily routine pray-then-do-that-don't-do-that than a religion. From the point of software technology it is a closed loop. It cannot be reformed but what one can do is that one increases the internal stress in muslim community in such a way that something, though being in Quaran, cannot be done. If could get one crack in the community, then ....
What do you think ?
Finn,
I have, for some time, advocated that Islam be declared an illegal organisation, but I had not thought to see Islam as, ".. a line-textual daily routine pray-then-do-that-don't-do-that than a religion. From the point of software technology it is a closed loop.", in the context of making it illegal.
I have always thought that we should deal with Islam as the US dealt with the mafia. Declare it illegal, then use the laws of conspiracy to kill it. Unfortunately, I don't think the general public, nor law makers for that matter, will see Islam like they came to see the mafia, for some time.
Line specific legislation, not ostensibly directed at Islam, may be easier to sell to a politically correct public. I think you may be onto something here.
Congratulations Rebecca.
Keep us posted on your progress. Who knows...the meetings, the blue scarves...might just catch on.
Ahmadinejad's declaration that "Islam is not confined to geographical borders, ethnic groups and nations. It's a universal ideology that leads the world to justice. We don't shy away from declaring that Islam is ready to rule the world. We must prepare ourselves to rule the world" is actually some refreshing honesty in the same vein as Mein Kampf was honest about Hitler's intentions.
Since Ahmadinejad has confirmed that Islam is an ideology and not a religion, it should be re-classified as such for all policy makers and confronted in the same way as communism and nazism. Islam is the world's oldest totalitarian ideology and it is just masquerading as a religion.
"What do you think ?"
That "stress" that you talk about could either force Muslims to abandon some beliefs in their religion, or force them to search for greener pastures. The problem is that it wouldn't give us any assurances that the same core beliefs weren't maintained secretly.
What I think that should be done is to raze any Islamic buildings that are proven to have provided space or funds to support Islamic radicalism. And I mean "raze" in a literal and public manner: implode the building, salt the earth beneath it, the whole nine yards.
Secondly, every individual supporting Islamic radicalism should be put in jail and/or deported if possible.
Thirdly, education.And I am not talking about Muslim's education, I am talking about Western education about what Islam is really all about. So the next time you hear a Muslim speak about the plight of Palestinians and how poor they are, you can either refute their claims (guess how many millions Arafat and his Miss Piggy-lookalike wife stashed in Switzerland?), or use their own medicine. Tu quoque is particularly annoying (... and how about the plight of Egyptian Copts? ... And how about the plight of Christians in Pakistan? Why aren't there churches in Saudi Arabia but there are mosques in Rome? Why is it that I can get sent to jail for reading from a Bible in "moderate" Morocco? Why are Christians and Jews refered to in the Koran as the sons of apes and pigs?). Knowledge is the key.
It is also very useful to show Islam's traditional buddies (the Leftists) what the Left would lose if Islam took over (women's rights and gay discrimination under Islamic rule should provide plenty of worthy topics).
Now, this is what can presently be done. Do I believe that it will make a diference? Nope. I predict that in less than 20 years Europe will be in total social chaos, and we will be living in either a police state or in anarchy. Neither solution is desirable, and I do hope I am wrong, but this "Islam vs West" thing is excellent for foster followers within the extreme-right.
I hope I am wrong, but I already predicted with six months' notice the shift in the Danish immigration policy, and I also predicted over 2 years ago the riots in France (I failed in expecting the same thing to happen in Germany and Holland).
I hope I am wrong, but I haven't been wrong many times about this sort of thing. Some of my friends who accused me of "racism" when we talked about these things (a couple of years ago), were forced to swallow their own words. Most of them are now more extremist than I am regarding what should be done. This is also a sad reflection of what I think will eventually happen: either we find a civilized solution NOW, or we will find an uncivilized solution in a couple of decades with terrible human cost. If possible I would choose the first solution. If necessary, I would support the second. My family and the rights so many of my ancestors bled for will not be endangered during my watch. Hopefuly it won't come to that. Hopefuly.
Rebecca. I would guess that the Blue Scarf Movement that you are involved in has some connection to the one started in France, that I mentioned in these pages.
If so, this is incredibly good news.
The feeling in France is definately that something is changing for the better.
There are now 3 porc soup kitchens feeding the homeless around the country. The scandal surrounding the cover up of the 'Train of Hell' story is not about to go away.
The Blue Scarf protest is set for the 26th of January in Paris. If Daffersd is reading this, I hope you can join us.
We have also involved several new people in our organisation.
Our Motto: 'Tired of Islam? You are not alone'
This is a major milestone, and a great hope for Europe, which is still mostly Catholic. In America, the religious right has made its position regarding Islam known long ago (Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson: "pedophile," "satan-possessed," etc.) With this, the true Christian alliance is complete---both Catholicism and Protestantism have a consistent view of Islam and for all practical purposes are united against Jihad. What's missing from this alliance is the large block of secular people, who need a leader also---a courageous president (unlike George Wahabbi Bush) who can join the Christian alliance and deal Islam the final and decisive blow, erase this evil and wicked cult of death from the face of the earth once and for all. A leader who will not only acknowledge without fear that we ARE in the middle of a cultural (and for Christians, religious) war, but who will also fight this war with unflinching resolve, zero dhimmitude.
Sebastien, yes of course the blue scarves come from the French. We desire also to make a statement of solidarity with the French people. Thanks you for alerting us to the existence of this lovely symbol. The blue scarf speaks.
Rebeeca,
I LOVE the Blue Scarf Society idea!!! What a way to feel empowered. Some days, reading JW/DW leaves me feeling depressed and helpless. Like many readers, (dare I say devotees?) to this site, I have been eager to share what I see as the greatest threat to our civilization without sounding like a wack-job. I've already had one family member just walk away mid-conversation. I now just buy PIG to Islam and the Crusades and give it out as well as sending email links to friends and family from this site. I try to tailor the info to what each person values. (For example, I found the articles on the California schools "Becoming a Muslim" carriculum an easy way to open a dialog with other parentsand slowly go from there.) Your BSS sounds like a great way to educate and mobilize people to stand up to the Islamic invasion.
My concern, however, is that Jihad Watch/Dhimmi Watch is also read by muslims and has been mentioned on Islamic sites as examples of muslim persecution. Perhaps you call it the Blue Scarf Society, but actually have another secret symbol. If silly cartoons get people threatened and killed, I'd hate to see what would happen to your small (but hopefully growing) group, if any muslims identified you.
Good Luck and God Bless
Awesome Rebecca JW, can I ask which country that was in?
Please tell me it was a European one.
Keep up the good work.
More freedom equals more fundamentalism; more fundamentalism equals more Islam; more Islam equals more totalitarianism.
PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH
That's one quick and foredoomed cycle. The enlightened lift the rock and show the Moslems resident beneath the light of freedom. The belighted Moslems --- angry, aggrieved, and bitter --- quickly pull the rock back down to restore the darkness.
Maybe some things were never meant to see the light of day.
I don't need some beanie wearing smuck to tell me that Islam can't be reformed!!! I know that. Duh!!! What the world needs to know that it was the papist psudo christians that the Muhammadan Islamists were at war with. The true Bible believing Christians were hidding in the mountains and the catacombs, beneath Rome.
To hear dangerous Islamist apologists such as Reuel Marc Gerecht speak on this topic, you'd think it is good and necessary for the West to "tolerate" the likes of Hamas, Hizbollah, and rancid regimes such as Tehran and Riyadh until the Muslims sort things out and come to their own conclusions about modernity and "proper" forms of governance... We simply need to step aside and blithely watch while they work things out, unhampered and unmolested by the West's ministrations...
What evidence do such fantasists use to bolster these arguments? Their thinking seems largely based on the false notion that Islam has the capacity to reform itself and evolve... Where is the evidence in history that this notion is possible? Islam only seems to devolve into baser and more brutal forms -- the more fervent the adherence to Koranic scripture, the more brutal, backward and cruel the manifestation of Islam will be...
I, for one, am not content to sit idly by while the cancer of Islam is allowed to metasticize and mutate into ever more virulent forms... I feel directly threatened by the actions and presence of Muslim locally and globally... And continuing calls for patience with the Muslim menace by various Islamic apologists, or worse, claims that WE are the ones that need reforming, are increasingly sounding like siren calls which lure us towards the rocks of calamity and suicide...
Ironman Hondo: The catacombs of Rome were used by the Christians during the persecutions of the pagan Roman emperors such as Nero and Domitian.
Islam didn't even come into existence until 622 AD/CE long after Rome had become Christian. By that time the catacombs were places where the Catholic Church honoured these early Christian martyrs.
For a detailed history of the catacombs see: http://www.catacombe.roma.it/
As for Bible believing Christians, it was the Orthodox/Catholic Church that first codified the New Testament and has preserved it faithfully and completely since the beginning.
The Blue Scarf movement will grow organically from the bottom up. Don't be afraid. The chances of being hurt are greater riding the subway than actually standing up to Islam. Muslims are not made of anything other than what you and I are made of. Man to man Muslims are mostly cowards. Demonstrate with a friend, and don't worry if there are only two of you. Who cares? Next time there might be four. You might make a friend. You might look like a Jehovah Witness. So what? Would you rather live in a world where you live in fear of the possiblity of Islam overtaking us all or will you don a scarf and live your life till the end, whenever that might be? Go, and give others the courage to speak out. I'm off to find a scarf of my own.
KM, our little maiden voyage blue scarf grassroots meeting was held here in the USA, southern region, where we still enjoy freedom of assembly, for a while longer anyway.
Long live the Blue Revolution!
Let it stand for all that is higher as opposed to all that is lower. The blue of the sky is higher than the green of the earth.
for those who dont want to scan through the interview, i've cut and pasted the most relevant bit below.
(JF is the Jesuit priest being interviewed. The "holy father" is the Pope)
this is seriously earth shattering stuff.
if the Pope is thinking this way, and this isnt a fake, then it's a serious wake up call to Western civilisation. It doesnt matter if you respect the Pope or not - the guy knows his theology - and in that regards, is someone who knows Islam a heck of a lot better than most people commenting on this site.
bear in mind that its well known that Tony Blair wants to eventually convert to Catholicism, and you can see why this interview is so important.
if this is the new thinking in the Vatican, you can be sure that this will start to influence the British government, even though it is supposed to be a Protestant state.
it is a bombshell.
**********************************************
JF: Well, the thesis that was proposed by this scholar was that Islam can enter into the modern world if the Koran is reinterpreted by taking the specific legislation, and going back to the principles, and then adapting it to our times, especially with the dignity that we ascribe to women, which has come through Christianity, of course
And immediately the holy father, in his beautiful calm but clear way, said, well, there's a fundamental problem with that because, he said, in the Islamic tradition, God has given His word to Mohammed, but it's an eternal word. It's not Mohammed's word. It's there for eternity the way it is. There's no possibility of adapting it or interpreting it, whereas in Christianity, and Judaism, the dynamism's completely different, that God has worked through his creatures.
but his seeing that distinction when the Koran, which is seen as something dropped out of Heaven, which cannot be adapted or applied, even, and the Bible, which is a word of God that comes through a human community, it was stunning.
JF: Yeah, that Christianity can engage modernity just like it did...the Jews did Egypt, or Christians did to Greece, because we can take what's good there, and we can elevate it through the revelation of Christ in the Bible. But Islam is stuck. It's stuck with a text that cannot be adapted, or even be interpreted properly
Rebecca Blue Scarf:
The mightiest oak is an acorn that has stood it's ground
Rebecca, I already have my blue scarf. It is a beautiful, sky blue and I've worn it already. It cost a whole dollar at Wal Mart. What a deal. Waiting breathlessly to hear more news.
In re: Sweden, Norway, Denmark.. How sad I am, how chagrined I am, the price of emasculation by the sword of the church, the bloody Christianizing King of Norway Olaf Trygvasson..
The blood of Saxons, of Charlemagne and William Duke of Normandy and Conqueror of England flows in my veins, and what has happened to this once fierce self sovereign and independent Berserkers, Vandals, Goths, Norsemen..they were civilized and neutred.
Turn the other cheek, forgive, do unto others, all sound high and mighty, but they are effeminate and will spell the end of western civilization.
Time for the west to pick up the sword again, and set out on our own counter Jihad crusade, and the place to start is within our own borders to all those who would cozen the enemy that seeks to destroy and enslave us...Islam.
Alarmed Pig Farmer:
What the hell are you writing about when you write the following: PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH?
Is this piggie talk that you picked up on your piggie farm? I see you write this in a lot of your posts. I am bewildered.
Re: " A negative answer implies that Ahmadinejad's January 5 call for world domination falls within the Islamic mainstream "We must believe in the fact that Islam is not confined to geographical borders, ethnic groups and nations. It's a universal ideology that leads the world to justice. We don't shy away from declaring that Islam is ready to rule the world. We must prepare ourselves to rule the world."
Since when has Islam been a universal ideology that leads the world to justice?
Are you kidding me?
Nonsense!
Islamic justice permits polygamy, cutting off a thieves hands, killing of a Muslim if he becomes an apostate, stoning a woman if she an adulterer, and using violence to kill infidels in the name of jihad.
There are no pure and noble (divine) aspects of justice in Islam. Coercion and intimidation are at the heart of Islam. It is a man made faith that is intrinsically opposed to the true divine aspects of spirituality which views freedom and free will as catalysts for growth.
Islam is a religion and islam is an ideology, if only it was an ideology, it would have been died many time ago, but like it´s a religion, it is strong and keeps in time.
I am reading a book by Jean Marie Gaudeul in italian From Islam to Christ(Vengono dall´Islam chiamati da Cristo) and this book says several interesting things.
There were western people converted to islam who were to the Ottoman Empire.
Many muslims converted to catholicism being later jesuits, founders of schools and another things.
The conversion´s stories are hard sometimes, but beautiful almost all times.
The great importance of finding a true christian in the way of a muslim.
The Cold War lasted 50 years, this new Cold War with episodes of Hot War, will last more time. But I know that we will win. But many we will be killed.
Archduke sez:"...It doesnt matter if you respect the Pope or not - the guy knows his theology - and in that regards, is someone who knows Islam a heck of a lot better than most people commenting on this site.
I would submit that understanding Islam is no monumental task unless you want to examine it on a cellular level. Once you get Islams drift, you dont need to be a genious to figure it out.
Nearly everyone on this site knows Islam as well or better than the Pope...While the Pope speaks with a big voice, I would put my money on Rebecca, Robert and Hugh before I bet one dollar on the Pope. Where's my blue scarf? At least thats 'DOING' something...
I overjoyed but not surprised to see that current Pope is cognizant of the vast difference between Islam and every other religious or quasi-religious philosophy. I expressed hope (on this venue and mine) at the time of his selection. When Robert Spencer expressed such hopes on this venue, there were others who expressed skepticism.
Although I’m not religious, I believe we all have to face the current threat, from atheists in New York to Buddhists in Thailand to Catholics in France, etc.
Provoslanvi, I stand corrected. The time period on my part is off. But the popes have never been a friend to true Bible believing Christians. The St Bartholomew Masscre and the Spanish Inqusitions are perfect examples of the honor the popes had for Bible believers. The New Testament didn't need to be codified by anyone. For that matter, none of the Bible needed to codified. And God doesn't/didn't need the popes to preserve His Word. Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away; but My words shall not pass away." (Mark 13;31.) God did not and does not need the Orthodox/Catholic church to preserve what Jesus said would never pass away in the first place. Period.
Ironman: I disagree about the New Testament not having to be codified. Remember, In the first three centuries of the Christian Church, there was no New Testament canon that was universally recognized. Nevertheless, by the 2nd century there was a common collection of letters and gospels that a majority of church leaders considered authoritative.
It was not written as a single book but the 27 books of the New Testament were written by various authors at various times and places. The Four Gospels circulated separately for the first few centuries as did the letters of Paul, Peter, John and James.
There were also other books purporting to be inspired scripture but were false such as the writings of the gnostics and other early heretics.
Tertullian, in the 2nd century, was the first to use the terms novum testamentum/new testament and vetus testamentum/old testament for the entire collection, however the translation, in the 5th century, used "testamentum" in 2nd Corinthians 3:6 "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."
The New Testament canon as it is now was first listed by St. Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in 367, in a letter written to his churches in Egypt. That canon gained wider and wider recognition until it was accepted by all at the Third Council of Carthage in 397. Even this council did not settle the matter, however. Certain books continued to be questioned, especially James and Revelation.
Even as late as the 16th century, theologian and reformer Martin Luther questioned (but in the end did not reject) the Epistle of James, the Epistle of Jude, the Epistle to the Hebrews and the Book of Revelation. Even today, German-language Luther Bibles are printed with these four books at the end of the canon, rather than their traditional order for other Christians. Due to the fact that some of the recognized Books of the Holy Scripture were having their canonicity questioned in the 16th century by Protestants, the Council of Trent reaffirmed the traditional canon of inspired Scripture as a dogma of the Catholic Church.
For this reason all Catholics (and Orthodox) must be Bible-believing or they are not Catholic.
I've been saying Islam is irreformable seemingly for forever. So has almost everyone else who has posted on this website. To no avail it would seem.Well, maybe someone has at last agreed with us out there.
Dare we hope at least SOMEONE out there is seeing things clearly? Dare we hope that it will do the world some good? Unfortunately, it's not George W. Bush or Dick Cheney or Condi Rice seeing Islam in its proper perspective.
It may take a global tragedy on a far bigger scale that 9-11 to wake up the world. And at that point, will it be too late? Europe's continuing state of denial (NOT a river in Egypt, and worse than America's own present state of denial) and dhimmitude are not hopeful signs.
Provoslanvi, I must continue to stand by the words of Jesus from Mark 13:31. Any one that has honestly studied the Word of God, would notice how often the Old Testament is qouted by the New Testament writers. Even the Book of Daniel is repeated by John the Revelator in the Book of Revelation. As a matter of fact, the predictions of Daniel are finalized in the Book of Revelation!!! You have to remember, before the organized church came along, ALL Bible believers were taught the Word of God. The organizied church changed all of that, which plunged all of Europe into the Dark Ages. The Bible was then claimed to be only for the learned men of theology, to interpt for the masses. it was the organizied church that made it against the law for the average layperson to own or possess a Bible or the Textus Receptus, as it was called. The Council of Trent condemed anyone other than a learned theologian or officers of the church from owning a Bible. Thus the assault on the Bible believers at St Bartolomew in France, and the Spanish Inquisition. The popes carried on the actions of the Ceasars against true Christians under the guise of being "men of God". This is why even Martin Luther rejected popery. The German Bible translator William Tyndal was ordered burned at the stake for translating the Bible for the Bavarian believers, by the pope. This is not an attack on you and your beliefs. I'm just stating a fact that the pope is not an authority figure as far as a lot of Christian are concerned. And those like me are not too influenced by anything that he may say or decree. And that is because of the history of the popes past. If God didn't codify the Bible, who are we to do it for Him? It's written in Revelation 22:18&19;
18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.
19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city and from the things which are written in this book.
The early believers that copied the Word of God took this passage very, very seriously. And they did not belong to an organized church. They were very, very, very careful to record this Word exactly as God intended. In a plain dialect. No codification, no de Vinci. Plain dialect. Learned men debate the Bible, argue the Bible, believers believe the Bible, are lead by the Bible, and live by the Bible. The Bible dosen't have to be recognized, just believed or not believed.
Jesus told Apostle John in Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear,let him hear what Spirit saith unto the churches;
Once again, Jesus is talking. No canonizing needed. The "true" Head of the church is speaking!!!
Ironman Hondo:
As for your correct observation on Daniel and Revelation I can only say AMEN!
However, I think you miss the mark when you wrote: "before the organized church came along, ALL Bible believers were taught the Word of God"
Jesus founded a Church which at the time only had the Old Testament and his Divine Words. That is why many of the Epistles are addressed to the Church against which Jesus promised that the "gates of Hell will never prevail" and Our Lord is faithful to His promises.
In Mark 13:31 Jesus promises that his Words will never pass away. A Promise that has been kept through the means of the Church perfectly preserving the Canon of Scripture.
1. Again, you are correct that much of the New Testament is quotations from the Old. However, if you look in your King James where Jesus quotes Isaiah or Revelation quotes Daniel etc. and then go back to the actual Old Testament passage, you may find them somewhat different.
Did Jesus, Paul, or John misquote? Certainly NOT!!!!! The difference is because modern Protestant (and most Catholic) Bibles use the Hebrew Textus Receptus as their source while Jesus and the Apostles quoted almost exclusively from the Greek Septuagent.
2. The Council of Trent NEVER condemned anyone owning a Bible. Just the opposite! They went out of their way to make sure that Bible printers were not editing or changing the Canons of Scripture. This is because Luther and many other early Protestants rejected James, Jude, Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, the Song of Solomon and other books of the Bible in direct violation of Revelation 22:19.
As for the warning in of Revelation 22:18, Luther also added to the words of the Bible to fit his theology, changing "The just shall live by faith" to "The just shall live by faith alone".
Although, the Protestants later put many of these books back, to this day, most Protestant Bibles are missing six books of the Old Testament that are found in the Greek Septuagent. Interestingly, except for Isaiah, Jesus quotes from these books more than any others.
Thus the Council of Trent was rightly concerned with preserving scripture as had been handed down from the beginning and re-affirming their inspiration by the Holy Spirit.
Here is the actual decree on Scripture and a listing (against Luther's innovations) of all the books of the Bible. This is difficult to read since it retains the Latin names of all the books ("Paralipomenon" instead of "Chronicles" etc.).
"DECREE CONCERNING THE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES
The sacred and holy, ecumenical, and general Synod of Trent,--lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the Same three legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein,--keeping this always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline; and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books, and the unwritten traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand; (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament--seeing that one God is the author of both --as also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ's own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession. And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one's mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according [Page 19] to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the apostle, three of John the apostle, one of the apostle James, one of Jude the apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the apostle. But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Let all, therefore, understand, in what order, and in what manner, the said Synod, after having laid the foundation of the Confession of faith, will proceed, and what testimonies and authorities it will mainly use in confirming dogmas, and in restoring morals in the Church"
For the complete texts of the decrees of the Council of Trent see: http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent.html
I also recomment you look at "Why you need to read the Bible, A Catholic View" to see the real Catholic position of Scripture: http://www.soon.org.uk/catholic.htm
Ironman, whatever our differences are on these issues, I can tell from your post that you truly love the Lord. You're correct that Jesus is the true Head of the Church. In fact, it is Catholic dogma that he is the ONLY head of the Church. Popes, Bishops and any other human office holders merely serve Him. And all of them, like you and me, are sinners saved through the free gift of the Grace of Jesus Christ.
Thank you for the compliment. It becomes apparent that you are just as impassioned about the ministry as well. Perhaps we can meet someday. May be we have already. We share a love for the Gospel that the others that read this site can, hopefully, feel. I pray that may be our discussion
brought an understanding to someone seeking Christ and His salvation. Or may be even seeking more understanding of His Word. And to any Islamic that may think that this was infighting you're sadly mistaken. Unlike Islam, we are allowed to disagree without being diagreeable.
Provoslanvi and I may have a difference of opinion, but that dosen't mean that I want to blow him up or call for jihad against him. True Christians love each other unconditionally as JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, taught us. We even love you. It's just that you refuse to recieve that love. JESUS called all who love Him, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."
Matthew 5:44
The Koran says, Against them make ready your strength to the ultmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Sura 8:60
This from the very book that Muslims claim "Dosen't promote violence against others."
In Christianity we have un believers, but thid is what JESUS, The ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD teaches,
Ye have heard that it was said by tham of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in no danger of the judgement;
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the jugdement: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:21-22
The Koran says,
"Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; at length, when ye have throughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them; thereafter is the time for either generosity or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens.... But those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost." Sura 47:4
There are many that reject Christianity, even for Islam!!! This is what JESUS suggests as far as dealing with these that turn their backs on Christianity,
" And whosoever shall not recieve you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Matt 10:14
This is what Muhammad suggests through the Koran,
" Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then KILL HIM."
Harsh words.
Provoslonvi, no doubt that we'll have more dicussions. But we stand resolute in our love for Jesus and the spreading of His Word. I love you with the love of Jesus Christ. And may His peace be with you, Always.
And to you jihadists, Jesus has a message for you,
" Then Jesus said unto him, Put up again thy sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Matthew 26:52
Yes, Jesus loved you enough to give you a choice, put down your jihadist ways or die by them!!!
Thank you for the compliment. It becomes apparent that you are just as impassioned about the ministry as well. Perhaps we can meet someday. May be we have already. We share a love for the Gospel that the others that read this site can, hopefully, feel. I pray that may be our discussion
brought an understanding to someone seeking Christ and His salvation. Or may be even seeking more understanding of His Word. And to any Islamic that may think that this was infighting you're sadly mistaken. Unlike with Islam, we are allowed to disagree without being diagreeable.
Provoslanvi and I may have a difference of opinion, but that dosen't mean that I want to blow him up or call for jihad against him. True Christians love each other unconditionally as JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, taught us. We even love you. It's just that you refuse to recieve that love. JESUS called for all who love Him, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."
Matthew 5:44
The Koran says, Against them make ready your strength to the ultmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Sura 8:60
This from the very book that Muslims claim "Dosen't promote violence against others."
In Christianity we have un believers, but this is what JESUS, The ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD teaches,
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in no danger of the judgement;
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the jugdement: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:21-22
The Koran says,
"Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; at length, when ye have throughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them; thereafter is the time for either generosity or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens.... But those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost." Sura 47:4
There are many that reject Christianity, even for Islam!!! This is what JESUS suggests as far as dealing with these that turn their backs on Christianity,
" And whosoever shall not recieve you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Matt 10:14
This is what Muhammad suggests through the Koran,
" Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then KILL HIM."
Harsh words.
Provoslonvi, no doubt that we'll have more dicussions. But we stand resolute in our love for Jesus and the spreading of His Word. I love you with the love of Jesus Christ. And may His peace be with you, Always.
And to you jihadists, Jesus has a message for you,
" Then Jesus said unto him, Put up again thy sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Matthew 26:52
Yes, Jesus loved you enough to give you a choice, put down your jihadist ways or die by them!!!
Thank you Ironman.
I agree completely and also hope we may meet one day.
That is what is so beautiful about our common Faith. We may disagree, and even argue points of Theology but we do so as friends and brothers.
Here also we see not only Christians like you and me standing together against a common threat but also Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and even non-believers united by our common decency or what Paul called the law written naturally in the human heart(Romans 2:14).
For that reason we can stand together against this Muslim cult that rejects all natural decency and seeks to kill or enslave us all.
One reason I keep coming back to this site is not only the info about the Muslim threat but the intelligence of most of those who comment here.
I really enjoy your posts and will keep looking for thim as I surf this site. God bless you Ironman.
Provo