Dhimmitude from the EU, throwing freedom of speech overboard. From the BBC, with thanks to Hutchrun:
EU foreign ministers have expressed regret that cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad published in European papers were found offensive by Muslims.At a meeting in Brussels they also agreed on a common line of action to rebuild ties with Muslim nations.
Austrian Foreign Minister Ursula Plassnik said the EU would seek dialogue and mutual understanding.
How can you have a dialogue when one of the partners is unilateral and absolutist?
However, the ministers also defended freedom of speech and condemned the violent response to the cartoons....It adds: "The Council acknowledges and regrets that these cartoons were considered offensive and distressing by Muslims across the world."
Diplomats said that at least one country, the Netherlands, had at first opposed the decision to express "regret".
The Czech government was also reported to be concerned that apologising would undermine the freedom fo the media.
While they upheld freedom of expression as a fundamental right, the ministers said freedoms "come with responsibilities".
"Freedom of expression should be exercised in a spirit of respect for religious and other beliefs and convictions. Mutual tolerance and respect are universal values we should all uphold," they said.
In other words, there is no freedom of speech when it comes to what might offend Muslims.
New EU motto:
Have you hugged your Islamofacsist Imam today?
Bold yellow letters on a white flag.
I especially regret the stupidity inherent in the muslim world. I regret not regretting more.
Are the members of the EU really this stupid? Are they aware of the political manipulation going on here?? I'm sure the Danish cartoonists, reading this in a safe-house somewhere, would be a bit pissed. I know I would be.
This item on the BBC appeared briefly on the BBC last night but has disappeared this morning.
These EU idiots have no right to apologise. Individuals who bear the right to publish what they wish in a free society composed the cartoons.
This “apology” is like a parent taking responsibility for a naughty child,,,for a perceived slight against a bully, when in reality it’s the bully’s behaviour that should be held to account.
Have the despotic Islamo-fascist bullies apologised?
You know the answer.
how many countries apologized for "satanic verses"?
Notice the exact words of the EU foreign ministers: "We regret that the cartoons were found to be offensive to Muslims". They didn't say "We regret that the cartoons were published" or "We apologise for having allowed the publication of the cartoons".
In other words, what they are really saying is "We are sorry that Muslims must behave like brats every time that they don't get things done the way they want". Muslims will probably see it as some sort of semi-apology, and everyone will be happy.
This doesn't concern me, it is just diplomatic rethoric. I am very annoyed - however - for the EU funding of the Palestinian Authority.
mark Steyn in a forthcoming NRo article says he's coming round to the belief that maybe the good guys could lose after all. the reaction to the cartoon crisis (coalmine canary) finally convinced him its possibly too late now and short of nuke jihad by the islamists, the free world will eventually, slowly but surely, cave in.
I reluctantly am forced to agree.
Under Darwinist rules, the more aggressive, predatory and violent player will ultimately trounce the decent and civilized player in the great evolutionary game. The DNA of western freedoms has proven too weak, possibly. The pragmatic Chinese will probably embrace islam is it suits their interests once the west is taken over by islam maybe. Horror scenarios all these but maybe, not that far fetched.
From the article: "Mutual tolerance and respect are universal values ... "
Since when?
It's taken Mark Steyn a long time to get serious about this matter. One hopes he stays that way. He might even try offering, in detail, ten things that could be done. Or he can just keep reading here at Jihad Watch, the way everyone else does.
His view, for awhile, seems to have moved to: What else?
The neoconservative idea that liberaldemocracy is transportable may be somewhat hopeful, but sitting back is not an option.
It's all a bit late. As Mark, more than anyone else, has made clear, it's the demography. The West should have put a stop to immigration from Muslim countries 30 years ago, while the problem was still manageable. It's a bit late to take that road now, with, for example, some 9 million Muslims settled in France. And it would, in any case, require a seachange in public perceptions. I think that may come ... but too late.
Besides, the indigenous population in most European countries is reproducing at below replacement rate so who fills the jobs, pays the pensions, etc., etc.
No regret. There should be none for this. Ever.
Sure, it’s possibly ‘regretful’ that there are those in this world who are so incredibly blinded by the misguided guidance of hypocritical people in power and are simply mindless automatons who carry out their bidding when it comes to escalating violence over some tame cartoons in a small newspaper that were printed months ago that only a handful of people in non-Muslim lands read. It’s also possibly ‘regretful’ that these same individuals are blinded by years and years of hatred spewed at them from those same people in power and they do nothing more than to live in order to carry out death sentences for others. It’s even ‘regretful’ that they cannot see their own hatred of others as published in their own papers and know that it’s the wrong way to act and they’ll someday be called on it when the word of their own shortcomings comes about.
Even worse, it’s going to be regretful when the day comes that an entire group of people with a cancerous mindset will need to be extinguished and exterminated from the planet before their disease bubbles and boils over to the good-hearted people of the world and infects them with hatred, too. It’s better to lose a limb than to allow the entire body to be consumed and die.
Sometimes we regret things we need to do. Sometimes we regret things that are in our best interest to do. These innate cartoons are nothing to regret. The biggest regrets we should have at this point is allowing this ‘religion of peace’ sham to spread as far as it has and to infect so many and to come so close in harming our way of life.
The bigger regrets are still on the horizon.
From The Washington Post, By Flemming Rose
Sunday, February 19, 2006; Page B01:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/17/AR2006021702499.html
"...if a believer demands that I, as a nonbeliever, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect, but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy."
"This is exactly why Karl Popper, in his seminal work "The Open Society and Its Enemies," insisted that one should not be tolerant with the intolerant."
"...calls for censorship on the grounds of insult. This is a popular trick of totalitarian movements: Label any critique or call for debate as an insult and punish the offenders.....The lesson from the Cold War is: If you give in to totalitarian impulses once, new demands follow. The West prevailed in the Cold War because we stood by our fundamental values and did not appease totalitarian tyrants."
"In January, Jyllands-Posten ran three full pages of interviews and photos of moderate Muslims saying no to being represented by the imams. They insist that their faith is compatible with a modern secular democracy. A network of moderate Muslims committed to the constitution has been established, and the anti-immigration People's Party called on its members to differentiate between radical and moderate Muslims, i.e. between Muslims propagating sharia law and Muslims accepting the rule of secular law. The Muslim face of Denmark has changed, and it is becoming clear that this is not a debate between "them" and "us," but between those committed to democracy in Denmark and those who are not."
I don't believe the EU speaks for Mr. Rose. Would that more people in the EU had stones comparable to his.
Where are the apologies from the Danish imams who added more cartoons to the original twelve? Where is the legal action against them for stirring up hatred? Where is the public outcry, from Moslem and non-Moslem alike, denouncing their calumny?
No, there is another way to see it.
Isn't it possible to have been doing something completely withinn one's rights? and also to have hurt someone's feelings?
As in "I am sorry you feel that way. But I will continue to do it. So please get used to it."
It's called the _non-apology apology._ "I am sorry that YOU feel that way."
I, personally, am sorry that Moslems are upset and if I knew any personally I would have no trouble saying so. But I would also explain that someone is likely to do it again and they have to get used to such rough-and-tumble if they are to live in the west.
The so-called EU leadership looks and behaves a lot like a pile of jellyfish panting away in a cooler somewhere. No principle, no resolve, no vision. Blind and amorphous, they are.
MORE KORANS MORE HADITHS MORE SIRATS MORE SELF-DELUSIONS MO' MOHAMET
When one mulls the "EU leadership" one is reminded of academic fraud and the grave dangers that stem from the exchange of participatory democracy for rule by Olympian elite. Central ownership and control of media also come to mind.
This is the model for the future of the USA. But the question to Tim and Hillary and Bill O and Sean and all the rest is, how do you attain this ideal? Can you, in your stupidity, impose this on us?
Even "I'm sorry that you are offended" is too much. Why should there be any expression of anything? An implacable determination to practice, not merely enjoy the theoretical possiblities of, freedom of speech, in the Western world, by Westerners, who have inherited a Western legacy of freedoms and an understanding of those freedoms, does not require, and should not elicit, any comment or hint of being "sorry" for anything.
Apologies should all be in the other direction. The display of those crazed fanatical mobs, and the display as well, from all those insidious
because softer-spoken "moderate" Muslims, beginning but not ending with, Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, has told us a good deal about the limits on Muslim comprehension of the rights enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, even by its supposedly best, least fanatical, representatives.
Infidels have learned a lot from this episode. Because it is not, after all, merely an episode. It is a permanent problem. It will not go away. It will only grow, if the Muslim presence in Infidel countries grows. The pressure on our laws and rights, our ability to defend them without confusing ourselves, or without draconian measures which would effect all of us, and we do not deserve to have such effects, but the pressure and presence and menace of Islam has already forced certain measures upon us all (just look at airport check-ins today). Minimize contacts with, minimize the need for contacts with, contain and constrain the power of, Islam -- that, and not a large lumbering army going to this or that Muslim country to remake it in the image of the West, or in the image of something less "Islamic" -- desirable no doubt, but scarcely achievable from without. It will take a hundred local Ataturks to do the job, and so far there seem to be none with the determination, and fearlessness, and special circumstances, that allowed Ataturk to do what he did do -- and that Erdogan and company are now undoing.
"Freedom of expression should be exercised in a spirit of respect for religious and other beliefs and convictions."
If I read this correctly the Koran can be banned regarding the hostality towards non-muslims.
Time for the obligatory Stephen Fry quote:
So you’re offended. So fucking what?
Fry doesn't overuse the "f" word. This is right and proper. Save it for a special occasion.
From the article;
"the ministers said freedoms "come with responsibilities"."
This phrase is becoming more and more prevalent.
Kudos do Stephen Fry !!
"It will take a hundred local Ataturks to do the job, and so far there seem to be none with the determination..."
Atavism is a trait of Islam's genetic code, Ataturks are not. Even "a hundred local Ataturks" wouldn't be sufficient to once and for all toss the bugaboos of Islam's doctrinal hatreds and war methods ( Muslim doctine of hatred + Muhammad's techniquies of "war" = Islamic Jihad ) into the abyss.
They are so stupid! The only good thing that will come of this is that we will see a massive emigration from Europe over the next 30 years. Already, we are seeing significant numbers of French Jews moving to New York and Montreal. Soon, ordinary catholics and protestants will realize that Europe is lost. Then we will have no need for immigrants from the middle-east, north Africa and Pakistan. Paris can become the new Lahore and who will care?
If you go to "www.danishmohammedcartoons.com", you can see how the Danish people have sent an Official Appology" to all the Muslims of the world. It is an interesting site. Dont miss it.
I wonder if anyone has compiled a list - of all the people - in Europe and other parts of the free world - whose lives have been threatened by Islam and are having to live under police protection because of it.
Now the lives of university professors are being threatened, so it is not only the things we write and can draw in the press, it is also the things that we can teach. If this is not a prelude to a take over, I don’t know what is.
We should act like those on that hijacked plane – start boiling some water for our attack - the flight where they said, ‘Let’s roll’. Although the plane crashed, in the end it was the hijackers who were harassed.
Why do you post spam rafia? It's nothing but a bunch of sponsored links.
I am a DANE and I will stand and fight any inkling of ISLAM. I will vote for Danish People Party until every last one of the muslims are out of our country and then I'll keep on voting Danish People Party to avoid them ever comming back.
I am so mad at myself, I truely believed that moderate muslims could be integrated into a modern society but to my horror, no such thing as moderate muslims exist. Even the muslim friends I have (read had) and considered as little muslims believers as I am christian (virtually none) has snubbed their noses at our freedom of speech and told me that we needed to limit it. I told them that I considered that treason and I found it unacceptable that they should wish to gag me that way. I turned around and never looked back.
Tomorrow Charlie Hebdo (french weekly that printed the cartoons) will publish a joint warning against islam from Salman Rushdi, Taslima Nasreen, Bernard Henri-Levy and a number of other writers.
Among other things they call it the next big threat now that facism, nazism and stalinism have been defeated. They also state that the cartoons have revealed the necesity of fighting for the values we consider important and call it a confrontation between democrats and theocrats.
Another thing that those living outside Denmark may not have heard about is that our prime minister launched a broad attack against the media, the industry and anyone who in general has failed to stand up for free speech. Using quite harsh words he accused the majority of the danish media of failing their responsibility to defend the freedom of speech.
Canman
Welcome to the real world.
Good to have you along, I just hope you can persuade more of your compatriots to wake up as well.
This is why the value of the internet is going to get stronger because the internet is where standing up for freedom has taken on new importance.
Sorry guys you are not going to like what I am about to write. But I truly believe in free speech even the most hateful kind. Europe obviously does not believe in free speech. And most of us here do, and rightfully so. But if we are to defend Europes right to free speech and attack the idiots rioting over cartoons we must first be pushing for the end of political correctness. Political correctness is a form of speech control. And last week a man cant rememeber his name IRving I believe a holocaust denier was sentenced to prison. Obviously he is a nut job, but I think this sentence weakens all our arguments. he went to jail for what he said. I find that frightening. If we allow this to happen we can have people going to jail for cartoons too.
The question "to be or not to be a defiant anti-dhimmi" is really interesting. I have recently taken my car to a garage run by predominantly Muslim mechanics as it is very close to my work. I left a lot of haraam literature (printouts from JW) inside. When I came to collect my car the boss explained with a smirky smile on his face that when he was testing the brakes my papers fell off the car seat. He picked them up and returned they they belonged. Phew! When I checked the seat it had face up the article by Dr. Sookhdeo "Islamisation of Britain". Needless to say I was driving ever so carefully that day and decided to change my garage...
The talk about challenging T-shirt reminded me of someone wearing one with the theme "When shit happens" and descriptions of various religions' reactions to it. The one about Islam particularly amused me: "When shit happens take a hostage". The owner was a Polish Jewish woma at THe Jewish Culture Festival in Cracow. She lives in Sweden - I owner if she displays it with an equal pride there? Funny this was exactly how we became friends - I complimented her on her witty T-shirt! Could I wera one like that at the 25 of March...not sure really. Anyway, it will be interesting what the police will allow us to carry (what banners) at the protest ...in defence of free speech.
pissedoffcanadian-
The Irving (nut)case is a red herring.
The Austrians had Nazis. They learned what Nazis do. The kill millions of your neighbors for an insane intolerant triumphalistic imperialistic ideology.
The Austrians made a self-defensive law after WW II:
no promoting the maniac cult of murderous Nazis in our land.
Irving went to Austria and promoted it.
He broke their specifis self-defensive law.
He should have just been hanged as a maniac promoting the return of genocidal cult of madmen.
Or are people not allowed to learn the lessons of history and protect themselves from insane hordes of killers?
If so, then we're doomed, because Islam is a cult of insane, theocratically-intoxicated selfpdeclared killers.
You want them to be allowed to freely promote their contempt for all of us, the conquest of our world, the destruction of our laws, the annihilation of our culture and the end of our world?
I say:
the f*cking hell with that!
Jail any goddamned neo-Nazis in Austria. (Although I would say just hang them.) We know their modus operandi. We know their goals. We already had to smash their genocidal Juggernaut once. Why allow it to gear back up?
Islam is gearing back up in a parallel lunatic track.
If they see we learned one lesson, and will fight for our lives and culture, they might be a little more hesitant about trying to do it themselves.
Nazis are maniac scum and should be prevented from arising whenever and wherever they crop up.
Or wasn't 12 million murdered enough of a wake up call?
Islam's assault on our Civilization needs similar resolve.
Stop thje p.c. pussyfooting!
profitsbeard if the laws in austria are to prevent another nazi from rising, then I say ban the koran too. We either limit hate speech or we allow all speech. That is all that I am saying. By the way I have no problem with the koran being banned, but we got to be consistent.
Just one thing to add profitsbeard its not PC to think Irving shouldnt go to Jail. Its PC to think he should. How the PC ideology works is to get reasonable people on board by banning hateful speech and the people who jump on board are well meaning people, but who decides what is offensive. Dont you see there is a danger there. I personally believe in unconditional free speech. Now when a mohomaden uses his free speech to let us know what his intentions are we still have every right to kick the crap out of him. But without free speech we would never know what his true intentions are.
Freedom of speech does come with responsibilities. Those responsibilites however can not censor or suppress the speech, but can only give rise to post utterance legal consequences. To hold otherwise is to deny free speech.
pissedoffcanadian-
You miss the point.
We are not in a free speech vacuum.
The Nazis gave us their lesson:
-we will kill you and destroy free speech.
As the familiar saying reminds:
"The Constitution is not a suicide pact."
The speech of avowed and proven killers is no longer deserving of being accepted as "free speech" -NOT after they play their hand of genocidal terrorism, for real, IN BLOOD.
Why allow such maniacs to re-attempt it again? Islam's tenets are Nazi-isms tenets. Except that the majority of the West haven't realized it yet.
People need to hurt before they awaken.
3,000 dead in one hour wasn't painful enough.
Maybe we need a million corpses at our feet before we take the threat from Islamic Imperialism seriously enough to really oppose this thrill-kill cult.
Nazi speech is nothing but a threat of immediate, proven violence. Free that and you invite your own murder.
Islamic speech is calculated deception aimed at bringing about a global prison camp, or death camp (depending on your status as a dhimmi/protected member of the "People of the Book", or as a mere contemptible pagan condemned to death).
I'm not a "People of the Book" special status person, so maybe I'm more motivated to fight this creed of the pedophile warlord.
And relatives of mine died under the heel of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe, so I will give them no quarter, intellectually or literally.
The hell with them.
And their little pimps, like Irving, who think they can mince and tapdance their way over our dead with a smarmy wink, and not get kicked in the balls.
Islam, which wants to create hell on earth, can go even deeper into Gehenna than the death's head commandos.
I'm for complete free speech, -except for self-declared terrorist killers.
Them, I prefer to see given their own medicine back.
Tenfold.
P.C. would never say we should just kill Nazis.
They want to understand why they are misguided.
I don't f*cking care what warped their head.
I know where it leads.
I'm not willing to let them go their twice.
pissedoffcanadian
Please! Don't apologize Canadian! Your logic is impeccable. People ought not be thrown in prison for stupidity .. even if their stupidity is hatefully expressed. Free speech needs to be vigilantly protected.
If the West still had a strong enough respect for intellectual discourse Irving would have been dragged through the halls of Academia and then thrown out the back door into obscurity. But respect for the intellect has been dealt severe blows from both directions: Right and Left. And who knows how long recuperation will take?
People should not to be incarcerated for hate-thoughts. Why if we did the sort of thing (that the Austrians have done to the British phoney-historian Irving) here in the USA .. there are some folks who post on this site who'd be doing the Perp Walk themselves. And we wouldn't want that, would we profitsbeard?
Thanks Daisytoo. Good point. I agree with what you say about the west not having strong enough respect for intellectual discourse. And you are right. Both the right and left has failed us in this regard.
since David Irving has been mentioned as someone whose freedom of speech was restricted, and was indeed found guilty of an abuse of free speech, it should be recalled that Irving himself tried to legally silence his critics. Deborah Lipstadt called him a Holocaust denier in one of her books, and he --Irving-- sued her for libel. He was trying to shut her up. As it happens, he lost his suit. Just remember that he was trying to shut up his critic.
The French satirical weekly, Le Canard Enchaine, made some caustic comments about the EU position on the cartoon affair and especially about Javier Solana, EU high foreign affairs panjandrum. See below a translation, albeit somewhat hurried, of the editorial in LeCanard:
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2006/02/chained-duck-le-canard-enchaine-on.html
I don't think that's it is some sort of random coincidence that Irving has been shut-up in Austria, birthplace of Hitler.
On a recent visit to Austria (never again) I went to the Freud "Museum" (Dare I say this was a bit like my own haj? I'm not a Freudian Psychotherapist - I'm Jungian, but w/out Freud we'd not have Jung) At any rate, the absence of respect for this genius (who resided most of his life in Vienna) was shocking. And the corresponding lack of respect for the reality of Austria's place in WW2 was equally disturbing. i.e. One piece of info provided about Freud was that "a year before his death he "emigrated" to England. Not the word I'd choose to describe "escaped for his life". (BTW England's homage to Freud is superb) This added to a big portrait of Kurt Waldheim in the lobby of the 4 or 5 star Sacher Hotel in Salzburg (given place of honor amidst other celebrity photos) and Vienna's Big Apology sculpture ... a kickably low depiction in marble of an very small elderly Jewish man scrubbing .. perpetually ... anti-NAZI slogans off the sidewalk. Disgraceful .. but there it is. And now Irving in jail and the smugness quotient going thru the roof in Vienna, "See, we care". Logical extension? Build concentration camps and put all the bad Holocaust deniers in them.
Holocaust denial is deep in Austria. They have scapegoated, as per usual, instead of owning their own shadow. This is the perfectly ordinary way evil gets enacted.
Eliyahu I am not trying to say Irving is a good person or that I feel sorry for him. I just dont like the precedent it sets.
Daisy good post I think you struck onto something, those who are always looking out to punish racists are racists themselves. Much like in the states the most feminist men. Men who assume every women is abused and become their defenders are usually men who treat women horribly. Take Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy as examples. I think Austria came down hard on them because they have an inferiority complex about the tolerance in their society and they trying to prove they ain't that bad.