Fitzgerald: No to Turkey in the E.U.

Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald revisits the question of Turkey's entry into the European Union:

Cartoon rage in Turkey has been relatively muted. That does not and should not obscure, however, the fact that Turkey represents a civilization fundamentally different from that of the Europeans, and that its bid to join the E.U. should be resolutely resisted.

It is not true, not anymore, that the most farseeing Americans in the American government, or on its fringes, still think that the official line -- United States wants Turkey in the E.U. -- is meant, whatever public pronouncements are still made in Washington that repeat the old formulas. Like light that arrives from a distant star even after that star has been extinguished, policy is often made on the basis of previous considerations.

Turkey was much more important to the United States during the Cold War than it is today. Islam was always seen as a "bulwark against Communism." Turkey dutifully enrolled itself in the campaign against the Soviet Union, not only or not mainly because of hatred of Communism, but because it was in so doing helping to checkmate its oldest enemy, Russia, and in the process, acquiring enormous benefits as a member of NATO. Turkish troops went off to fight bravely during the Korean War, and managed to find time to convert South Koreans to Islam (there are now 50,000 such Muslim tokens of Turkish self-esteem). Turkey was a place for airbases and listening posts. The generals in Ankara were so modern, so forward-looking, so much "our kind" -- even more "our kind" than the Terry-Thomas mustachioed generals in Pakistan. And of course unlike the Pakistani version, the Turkish defense establishment was, indeed, secular, and the preserver of the Kemalist legacy and the Cult of Ataturk.

Turkey's usefulness after the Cold War was to continue the mixture as before, to serve as a staging base for American military operations in the Middle East, and as a "staunch ally" against a new enemy. But that enemy now consisted, clearly, of fellow Muslim regimes. As the Iraq War has shown, Turkey has not exactly met expectations, naive as they were, and believed in as they were by people of influence. Some of those -- Richard Perle for example -- served as agents of Turkish interests, and still are promoting the idea that there is nothing to worry about with Erdogan. It is not an accident that so many of the miscalculations having to do with Iraq, were based on a misunderstanding of the power and pull of Islam.

But it is dawning on many, perhaps even in Washington, that Ataturk's constraints on Islam were not permanent. Nor would it be wise ever to take them for granted, even if the kind of Turks we like were to hold firm power. Anyone from tycoons to writers to generals are likely to be the secularist kind, who for their own good reasons would like Turkey in the E.U. in order to dilute the Islamic menace within Turkey. They also want this possibly so that these beneficiaries of Kemalism who did not work to expand it nearly enough, or to suppress the Islam that keeps bubbling up from below, to make their own lives thereby easier.

Islam remains the permanent defining feature of Turkey. At best it is only containable, despite the creation of a class -- possibly 1/4 of the population -- that can be described as secular, and of a mythology about Ataturk and the "Turk people" that serves as a substitute for the masses of the alternative mythology and system of worship provided by Islam. Better that Ataturk be worshipped than Muhammad, though none of us need subscribe to its other features, includinng the claim that the "Turks" were present in Anatolia since the time of the Hittites and were the real source of everything good there, including the Byzantine Empire, which of course had nothing to do with either the Seljuk or the Ottoman Turks.

But Islam has proven its durability. After 80 years of official Kemalism, backed up by the army and the entire class of enlightened Turks, the canonical and immutable texts of Islam have survived the pressure from that particular despotic Ataturkian will. If after the creation of a large class of beneficiaries of its systematic constraints on Islam, if after 80 years of the carefully-cultivated Cult of Ataturk, nonetheless an Erdogan can arise and enjoy so much support, it is very telling. And that support has been demonstrated in so many ways, including the vicious nonsense from a leading Turkish figure about the American soldiers behaving "worse than Nazis" in Iraq, and the popularity of a Turkish reprint of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," and the latest Turkish hit movie, with American soldiers behaving like those fiendish Nazis and American Jewish doctors who remove organs from Abu Ghraib prisoners to sell on the market in "New York." That is what is going on. It is insufficiently remarked in Washington but not, one suspects, in certain European capitals.

By now it is clear, even possibly to Condoleeza Rice and to Richard Perle, that Turkey cannot be taken for granted as being permanently secularist. And that Europe should not be asked to take a chance on Turkey because the Americans are too inarticulate, timid, or unable to understand that there are threats other than the purely military kind. There is the Da'wa threat, and the demographic threat, both felt far more keenly in Europe. Many European countries, it is true, have allowed Muslim interests to cunningly plan on the pre-existing mental conditions of antisemitism and anti-Americanism to split Europe from the United States, its natural civilizational ally.

But as Europe weakens, the current American administration, so preoccupied with the tarbaby of Iraq, is now treating the bravest Europeans -- the upholders of their own rights in the face of Muslim aggression and bullying -- with contumely. It was disgusting for the slightest disapproval of those cartoons to be shown. It was a matter of Danes freely exercising their right of free speech. If any further comment was to have been made, it ought to have been directed at those making death threats and burning down embassies and creating forged cartoons to whip up mobs still further -- and that should have been it.

In the same way, it is now the American government that appears, at least formally, to be trying to force the Europeans to accept Turkey. The American government cannot face the idea, cannot deal with the idea, that Islam itself -- not "extremists" or "Wahhabists" -- is a permanent problem for all non-Muslims, and that expanding the role of Muslims and of Islam within Europe is not a good but a terrible idea. Nor can it accept that admitting Turkey will not tame Islam. It will not somehow create that fictional "European Islam" that keeps being mentioned by Tariq Ramadan without any explanation of what understandings of Islam could possibly be derived from the same immutable, canonical texts that are read in Ramallah and Rawalpindi and Riyadh, being read by Muslims in Rome or Rotterdam or Rotherhithe or Rheims.

Any expansion of Islam within Europe is not a good idea for Europe or for North America or for Infidels anywhere, from Australia and Thailand and India to the southern Sudan and southern Nigeria, to Brazil and Argentina. It would lead, inevitably, to greater turmoil and tension within Europe for its indigenous Infidels, to their demoralization, and to their temptation to embrace, as the only means to save themselves, local Fascists. And this temptation will grow if the respectable parties do not embrace and articulate a defense of Europe and its values, or what were thought until recently to be its unshakeable values, as against the threat of Islam, with its completely different view of the individual, of the role of religion, of the rights guaranteed to individuals as opposed to the sinister collective, the umma, and of the division of the world between Believer and Infidel that is so central to Islam.

Refusing to recognize and to articulate the problem will merely lead to the slow-motion (or perhaps speeded-up) destruction of the cradle and center of Western civilization -- Western Europe. In what sense could American civilization or the West survive if, for example, Italy were to be islamized and taken over by Muslims? What would this mean for all of us?

Yet Bush and Rice moved heaven and earth last year to ensure that Turkey's application for admission would not be stopped. Bush even called Karamanlis to insist that Greece vote "the right way." Perle and others were called in to make Erdogan appear to be a "moderate" leader, and the siren-song that "there is nothing wrong with Islam, it's just those extremists" was employed yet again to force the Europeans to accept Turkey.

It should be clear that the inclusion of Turkey in the E.U would lead to further mosques and madrasas in Europe, further concessions to Muslims (which we shall soon see in the wake of the cartoon controversy) and easier migration of Arabs, through the entry-port of Turkey, into the EU. Once into one country, Arab and other Muslim immigrants cannot be stopped at any other borders. They will be able to move freely, live more easily, anywhere in the E.U. that they want, as will Turks. And not all of those Turks will be reminiscent of Orhan Pamuk or Halil Inalcik.

Do not, at this point, blame the United States entirely, whether or not Turkey is allowed in. The indigenous forces of appeasement within Europe are very strong. The American government has shown in the past that it has little power of persuasion over the E.U. bureaucracy, to which it is antipathetic. And in any case that bureaucracy has been at the center of Europe's appeasement of Arabs and Muslims. Some of that bureaucracy's former members are now spread out: Prodi is running in Italy, and Chris Patten has quite undeservedly been made the plummy "Chancellor" of Oxford. The American government includes more of those who now realize that Houston, we have a problem, and that problem that will not go away happens to be rooted in the nature of Islam and not merely in these "extremists" we keep hearing about: rooted in the texts that Believers read, hear, recite, repeat. The problem is not to be cured by jobs or by ending poverty (there is not that much poverty in Saudi Arabia), nor by "reaching out" to Muslims and telling them endlessly how much we admire them, how wonderful they are, how sorry we are ever to have tolerated any criticism of Islam within our own countries, by our own citizens, and how we will do our best to suppress such criticism -- because it can only get in the way of that great and natural "dialogue of civilizations" in which we place our hopes.

Instead, that problem of the Jihad, of the menace of those who think, as Muslims are taught to think, that "Islam must dominate and is not to be dominated" is much more likely to be reduced to manageable proportions insofar as Muslims themselves will be put on notice and never allowed to forget that the Infidel world now and from now on understands what the matter with Islam is, and is accordingly permanently wary and alert. The Infidel world should put Muslim states on notice that it will no longer permit unrestricted immigration, will no longer allow the delivery of major weaponry (not merely WMD, but anything beyond jeeps and rifles), and will deny access to Western medical care, education, and so on, to citizens of any state that does not clearly and definitively renounce the jihad in word and in deed. But the idea that any Muslim state would actually do so is a fantasy.

Still, only thus will a sufficient number of Muslims, alarmed at the state of their own lands, realize that the game as before cannot continue. Only then may little Ataturks arise here and there, and perhaps along with them some "reformers" (which is the name that will be given to them, though they are more aptly to be called "constrainers" on Islam). Constraining the political role of Islam with Muslim countries is part of the appropriate response, but only part.

The surest way to create the conditions for this is the very reverse of the received wisdom. Do not help the Muslim countries. Do not increase the contacts with them. Do not risk American lives to "rebuild" a country such as Iraq, but leave it now to its own devices -- neither lives, nor money, nor attention, should be further lavished in such a misallocation of resources when there is a worldwide problem to be dealt with. That problem is best dealt with by letting the obvious political, economic, moral, and intellectual failures of Islam become obvious to all, not least to thinking Muslims, who will be disturbed into action if they can no longer count on sending their children, or themselves, to the West.

We must stop rescuing, subsidizing, protecting the Islamic world in the vain hope that this somehow will change the nature of Islam. Not at all. It will continue to permit the continued health of the jihad against us, and the continued demographic conquest, accompanied by a kind of intellectual conquest as Europe throws over its own history, its own past, and substitutes a made-in-Cairo version of that past, of Europe. That must end. And to that end, one must start somewhere. Refusing to hasten the transformation of Europe -- that is, refusing to admit Turkey into the E.U., and along with Turkey all sorts of other Muslim immigrants as well, is that start.

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29 Comments

Turkey should not join the EU as it occupies the North part of Cyprus illegaly Cyprus is part of the EU already and if Turkey was to enter the EU a other EU country cannot occupy a other EU country it is wrong and its unjust for the greeks who had there property stolen in 1974

Well we saw what happened last year when the ordianary French and Dutch citizens voted down the EU constitution. My friends in Europe do not want Turkey admitted to the EU, they know the dangers even more so now. Let "Democracy". work in Europe.
l do agree with most of what Hugh has to say about conditions to the Arab states, but l do not know how that ever will fly with our politicians in the West who are hoaring for votes! we need to make a firm block and vote out politicians who do not try to protect our civilization!

Food for thought. I am usually against isolationism - just consider how failed that aproach has been regarding Cuba -, but then again the Arab "nation" does not possess the inventiveness of the Cuban people.

That is probably why isolationism would work in this particular case, because Arabs are totally dependent on the West.

There are two catches, though:

- This would only work IF the rest of the world could get rid of its dependency of middle eastern oil. Bush's speech from a few days ago brings new hope, even from a - much neglected - ecological point of view

- If we abandoned trade with the Middle East, what assurances would we have that countries like China or Russia wouldn't occupy the markets we had just abandoned?

On a brighter side, many people are opening their eyes because of the cartoon controversy. Mainstream politicians are saying things like "if Muslims want Islam to be taken seriously, they really need to grow up".

The veil is off. Even if the "economic offensive" that Hugh defends in this piece is still - at this point - unlikely to happen in a near future, the battle for the minds of the ordinary citizen has already started, and guess who is winning?

The Danish newspaper editor claimed that he had lost the war. He was completely wrong - he didn't lose the war, he opened a whole new front. Whether this will become a Galipoli or a Overlord, it is too soon to say.

--We must stop rescuing, subsidizing, protecting the Islamic world in the vain hope that this somehow will change the nature of Islam. Not at all.

The truth of this principal, incidentally, cuts across to other area's of life: welfare policy. Back in the 1992, there was a left of centre in power in the province and they raised welfare and other govt subsidies 30 percent. The result? Welfare levels and deficits skyrocketed. Then, in the mid nineties a conservative govt was elected on the promise that they would cut welfare by 25 percent, as it was subsidizing idleness and sloth and dependency. Of course there was the usual clamour that we would be abandoning the helpess, or that the way to help people change themselves was to continue the high welfare cheques. But it turned out the conservatives were right: after welfare was cut, miraculously, welfare rolls decreased significantly and there was a corresponding increase in jobs and growth.

The axiom that if you subsidize something you will increase it, is as true with welfare as it is with Islam

It appears that at last the scales are beginning to fall from the eyes of Europe. It is particularly serendipitous that cartoon rage, the electoral victory of Hamas, and the nuclear crisis with Iran have arrived all at once, in a nice little bundle. Disasters come in threes, after all!

Hugh wrote of American policy toward Turkey being made in light of previous considerations. I think the Bush administration's utterances about the caricatures of Muhammad are in the same vein. Right after 9/11, it was wrongly deemed necessary to appease the sensibilities of Muslims, just as it was wrongly believed that Islam was separate from Jihad and its militant adherents. This fig leaf is only in the process of dropping away. Soon enough, if we persist in our criticism, this too will change.

Quijybo

Iran is going to push the issue by disengaging from the western countries that have printed the cartoons.

Now, who will be sitting on the sidelines waiting to benefit? Russia and China.

Time for the US to stop subsidizing the Chinese!!!

**News flash** from Fox.

Catholic priest killed in Turkey in retaliation for the cartoons.

Here is another good reason, Hugh for keeping the Turks out: Billy Zane and Gary Busey, starring in what is considered to be the most expensive Turkish made film...which is, in reality, little more than an anti-American, rabid Jew-hating blood libel. I hope the thirty pieces of silver will assuage the consciences of these two Judases.

l watched some of Fox's sunday morning show with Chri Wallace, and both sides conservative and liberal agreed that muslims need to grow up over these cartoons.They conmpared the murder and mayhem the muslims do compared to when a Westerner disagrees with a cartoon such as writing a letter and some sort of discussion. There was a good sense that became apparent at how barbaric muslims appear.Also both sides agreed that freedom of the press, etc. are essentially good Western Values and worth keeping! l think we finally have something in common with both sides..with the help of these cartoons.

"Billy Zane and Gary Busey, starring in what is considered to be the most expensive Turkish made film..."
-- from a posting above

I thought I had mentioned that film in the piece above. In any case, may this spell the end of any conceivable work they might wish to obtain in the Infidel world. Let working for Islamic interests, whether as an ex-diplomat suavely pocketing the money, or a supposed "scholar" fronting for Islam as the head of some "Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding," or as an actor, be the kiss of occupational death.

One presumes that no one would, during World War II, have hired someone who had worked for Radio Berlin in the 1930s, or had a bit part in "Jude Suss." Why should things be different now?

TURKEYS CANT FLY

But the big question is not really Turkey. Turkey will never join the EU. The EU citizens have spoken in 2005. They don’t want any more expansions. They rejected the Constitution in large part as a protest over expansion. See: Now that we are all bundled in, lets close the door, The Economist, April 28, 2005
http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=3909517


JANNISERIES SHOULD NOT BE JANITORS IN THE EU, ONLY POLES CAN BE

Turkey does not belong in Europe for yet another reason. The only manner that they presume themselves to be European is through the theft of people. These so called Europeans are nothing more that people from Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Croatia and Romania. This system of compulsory tribute of the Sultan lead to the creation of the "janissaries". The janissaries were then used to attack Europeans themselves! This system required Europeans to send their sons (and crippling amounts of money) to the Sultan. The system began first in Albania spread elsewhere, deeper into Europe. Many of the Janissaries become the Ottoman elite. In fact, the blond haired, Mustapha Kemal Pasha (Ataturk) was himself the descendant of these Janissaries.

FROM TASHKENT TO CONSTANTINOPLE

Perhaps I should remind our readers that the Turkic peoples come from Central Asia. The Turk's cousins are the Turkmen, the Uzbeks and the Kazakhs. All speak a Turkic language. That these Turkic peoples reached Europe indicates they were resilient. However, to call them European is a sham. See map of Caucuses and Central Asia: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/caucasus_cntrl_asia_pol_2003.jpg

CULTURAL AND ECONOMIC DEVASTATION IN THE BALKANS DUE TO THE OTTOMANS

Last, the legacy of Ottoman rule had a devastating impact on the development of that entire region in Europe that was only put on ice while under communist rule. While Western Europe was able to enter enlightenment, and build magnificent buildings, South Eastern Europe languished under the crippling effects of Ottoman rule, Ottoman Jizya and the Janissary tribute. Some countries were more devastated than others, with Albania being left unquestionably most devastated, and Hungary and Romania perhaps least affected. However, no country was spared the ravages. Greece has been able to advance (and recover) tremendously with enormous capital invested in it. Romania and Bulgaria are now following Greece and Hungary and advancing very fast, but have decades to go. Although Croatia was left with Moslems in its midst, Croatia is far wealthier because even during the days of former Yugoslavia, Croats were able to leave and work in the West. Croatia was also a tourist destination even during the cold war days. Because Croatia’s reconstruction was started so much sooner, Croatia's place in Europe, at some point, seems secure. Last, Croatia is a Catholic country whose admission is being supported by several EU countries. Croatia has recently begun EU membership talks, but what will come of the talks is unclear.


ROMANIA AND BULGARIA, THE EU SIGHS LOUDLY, BUT MOVES AHEAD WITH A TRULY “HISTORIC” EXPANSION

Those two countries already signed accession treaties, which await ratification by only some EU countries. The two nations will join the EU in the matter of months, in either 2007 or 2008. However, Romania and Bulgaria might be the last expansion for a very long time, perhaps the last ever. Sarkozy recently stated that after Romania and Bulgaria join, French citizens will have any future countries put to a public referendum in all countries, France included. Moreover, Sarkozy stated that there should be no more expansions after the next. http://euro-reporters.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=364&Itemid=1

Although there is little EU appetite for taking in Romania and Bulgaria, this expansion will take place. See http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/01/news/eu.php
It is well known that, while both possess fast growing economies, both are still relative basket cases.

But Romania has played a very dangerous game in Europe. Romania has rightly scolded Western Europe reputedly over its failure to secure Europe’s orders, by noting that only the US was willing to do so. But most worrisome for Romania with respect to its EU prospects were its very close ties developed with the US. Let's not forget the possiblity of having hosted CIA prisons. In addition, and repeated (and often earned) direct open handed slaps in the face that Romania has given France, despite historically close cultural ties, have raised a question the extent of French support. Romania has also openly attacked not only France’s economic system, but also its geopolitical one. It boldly reminded France of its neglect of Southeastern Europe while asserting itself as the biggest player in Southeastern Europe aside from perhaps Greece. Amazingly, France recently accepted Romania’s slaps and did nothing to retaliate against Romania with respect to EU membership. Consider the following:

“Romania looks set to outdo everyone in its pro-Americanism, if and when it joins the Union in two or three years' time. Its new president, Traian Basescu, elected in December, has said that his priority is to work closely with Washington and London, a formula which pointedly omits Paris and Brussels. Last week he said that Romania favoured “a state with minimal involvement in the economy”, a rebuke to France's dirigiste model. He added for good measure that he resented what Mr. Chirac had said in 2003. “Romania is a country which has respect for itself,” he said, “we do not like these kinds of declarations.”

Source: Now that we are all bundled in, lets close the door, The Economist, April 28, 2005
http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=3909517

The EU knows taking them in while be hard, especially a country not much smaller than Poland, Romania, which soon will be the seventh largest European country. At the end of the day, I believe France has changed. The riots, 7/7 in the UK and the constant reminders of Islam may have awoken the Republic.

France has made it clear that this expansion will go ahead and it will not forsake these countries, slaps or not. Perhaps the French decision to allow the expansion is really a pragmatic one. After all, they cannot stop it, and at best could postpone it for only one year under the signed treaty. If they did postpone it, the counties that suffered the postponement would not forgive the French for a long time. French does not want to lose those votes in Brussels and secretly hope they can manipulate them to counter Polish votes. Who will dominate the power vaccuum in Central/Eastern Europe? Will if be France, Russia, the UK, Germany, or the US? Signs point to multiple players.

BUT WHAT ABOUT ALBANIA, BOSNIA AND KOSOVO, WILL THE EU STAY AWAY?

Expansion fatigue leads to the neglect of the Western Balkans. That also leaves the big problem of Moldova and Ukraine. I can only hope that Albania, Macedonia, Serbia, and Montenegro join some day since the suffering of those peoples was immense. Albania is perhaps the biggest question mark. It was the only country, which after the nations of South Eastern Europe reveled in their freedom from Turkey in the 1870s, wanted to remain part of the Ottoman Empire! Albania today is 70% Moslem. The nations of Serbia/Montenegro and Macedonia will likely join in due time once political questions are settled, if there are future expansions.

BARBARY BARBARIANS

Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Libya have asked to join. They were told that the EU could offer them “friendly nations” status with the EU. That status would offer them a “privileged partnership” with the EU that might someday give them some special trading benefits.

UKRAINE, NJE

Although Ukraine is a country very far to the east does not in any way lessen its European credentials? However, Russia continues to treat it as a de facto soviet nation. After Yushenko won following the “orange revolution”, there was much speculation that Ukraine would move closer to the West. Instead, the EU scorned the country. Sadly, the revolution ultimately failed. While the US encouraged Ukraine to continue reforms if it wanted to join NATO, such membership seems a near impossibility considering Russia’s interests in the country. Moreover, its border with Russia is not completely defined. Lastly, Ukraine’s size is so immense and its problems so great, there is absolutely no appetite for the EU to take it in. The loss of the Ukraine is truly a terribly sad thing. That nation must never be forsaken.

MOLDOVA, WE JUST WANT RUSSIAN TROOPS GONE

This is a country that formerly belonged to Romania. THIS is the European friction point de jeur, the nation with the biggest cloud over its head right now. This is a nation where the majority speaks Romania and previously belonged to Romania. Moreover, because Romania will soon be a EU member, the EU does not to give much discussion to the issue of Moldovan membership. While it was made clear recently that, like Ukraine, there is no interest in giving Moldova anything other than a “special status” as a friendly neighbor, this is just talk. The truth is Moldova can easily join the EU, and will. The Soviets had annexed a portion of Romania and renamed it “Moldavia”, and at the same time, annexed a part of the Ukraine to the country in an attempt to dilute the Romanian population. After the USSR collapsed, Moldovans agitated for reunification with Romania. Russia responded by sending troops there. Today the country is entirely paralyzed with Russian troops in the eastern Transniester and the establishment of a rogue state on its Transniester territory. See map: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/md.html.
In spite of EU, US, OSCE and Canadian pressure, no entity has been able to get elite Russian troops to leave the Transneister area that is an area where drugs, women and perhaps even terrorists thrive under Russian eyes. Russia claims the troops are “peace keepers”. What Russia is awaiting is Romania’s obvious annexation of Moldova, however with the east strip ripped from the country, Russia hopes to establish another thorny state inside Europe itself, rather like Kalingrad by Poland. For a map showing tiny Kallingrad, see this map: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rs.html
This issue is now far more complicated as Romania, a very close US ally, now hosts US military bases, furthering Russia desire to “counter balance” the US in the region with troops in Moldova.

GEORGIA, ARMENIA AND AZERBAJIAN, SOMEDAY AFTER TURKEY?

While these countries have expressed a desire to join the EU, the EU has not acknowledged any such possibility or even entertained the thought. However, there is speculation that if Turkey joins the EU, these nations may as well. Indeed, it is ironic that it is for that reason that Armenia argues so strenuously on behalf of Turkish membership (so long as Armenian genocide is acknowledged). Georgia is still occupied by Russian troops. Armenia relies on Russian military power to counter Azerbaijan.
See map of Caucuses and Central Asia: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/caucasus_cntrl_asia_pol_2003.jpg

IRAN TO JOIN THE EU 2012 OR 2013 AT THE LATEST

Once Turkey is firmly in Europe, Brussels insisted that Iran was the next logical choice. Just kidding.

Hugh: Can you explain (if you have, please forgive) why you call non-Moslems "Infidels". It seems as if you are writing from a Moslem perspective (and of course, you are not). I don't regard myself as an Infidel even though I'm an atheistic Jew. Isn't it a term used by Moslems to describe non-Moslems. Perhaps you are being ironic and I'm just too obtuse to get it.

"only thus will a sufficient number of Muslims, alarmed at the state of their own lands, realize that the game as before cannot continue."

This was, in fact, the international status quo between the Muslim world and the West from the late 17th century clear through to the mid-20th century.

Those roughly three centuries of inferiority and passivity forced upon the Muslim world by that stupendously spectacularly dominant rising star of the world, the modern West (coupled with the internal decadence, corruption and retrogression of the Muslim world during that same period), inculcated much of the para-culture of what may be called de facto Islam -- whereby masses of Muslims passively and lazily accept the imperfections of life and don't seek to activate the jihadist imperative and obligations of de jure Islam (authentic canonical Islam). Over time, this created a kind of Muslim who can emigrate into the West without jihadist designs. To deny that this kind exists and to paint all Muslims as easily activatable Jihadist robots is to simplify the sociology of Islam and, sometimes, it would have the effect of forcing those de facto Muslims to choose allegiances, where it would be in our better interest to allow them to remain in their state of lazy, semi-coherent, and harmless self-denial. Bin Laden desires the mass crystallization and activation of a stark Either/Or to electrify and unify the complex and disparate sociology of the Muslim world: some of Hugh's suggestions would, from the other end, so to speak, play into his hands quite nicely.

"Do not, at this point, blame the United States entirely, whether or not Turkey is allowed in. The indigenous forces of appeasement within Europe are very strong. The American government has shown in the past that it has little power of persuasion over the E.U. bureaucracy, to which it is antipathetic."

-Robert

We agree that it would be a catastrophe if they accede. We also agree that Turkey's continued secularity is far from certain. I doubt that you deny that the US is indeed pushing the EU to admit Turkey on the basis of a belief that Turkey is secular.

However, you suggest that we ought not blame the US? The US might not be a EU member, but it still wields great influence. You suggest they have US has little persuasive power over the EU. I think that power is underestimated.

The adverb of interest is "entirely." Don't blame the American government -- entirely. Blame enough to go around.

I like to use the word "Infidel" because:

1) it is shorter than "non-Muslim"

2) it provides the Muslim view of what we are, but clearly devoid of the Muslim sting

3) it gets us, the Infidels, used to thinking of how many Muslims think of us -- and inuring us to that thought.

4) it confuses and disturbs Muslims when non-Muslims, in writing, call themselves "Infidels"

5) use of the word "Infidel" makes clear the vast abyss, in Muslim terms, between Believer and .... Infidel.

MARIA

Not only did they steal it, but they left it to rot. I don't have the link right now, but a brave photographer documented, on this site, I think, life in north Cyprus, some 30 years after the occupation. It looks like Beirut in the 80s. Or worse. Life at a standstill. As if a biological bomb went off, and only the nonbiological structures were left.
Whole groves and orchards and sheep and goats died for lack of care. There still are uninhabited homes, fled from and standing exactly as they were in 1974.

Meanwhile, the Turks sell real estate they don't legally own to Brittish retirees, for peanuts when compared with the rest of the Mediterranean market.
I wouldn't care if I thought a new generation of Durrells sought refuge there. Judging by the Brits' postings on the web, they sound, let's say politely, naive.

I believe Time, Lib-Academics, & Turkey have an allegiance to Turkey which has a long demographic history of colonization, an exporter of Turks and traditions, an above average 1000 years of "Islam with a very Sharp Sword" to assist any good neighbor with convertions, mosques, rugs & drugs agenda.
"It" is now converting the liberal EU, US, UN with Islamic Turks and Kurds seeking slaves housing & other social benefits while promoting and negotiating sanctified hate, rape and honor killings as central to capitulation to Islam colonization. Turks are sponsored, also, by Saudi-Muslims firm believers in more mosques & oil money for The New World Order of Islam & Socialist Dependents. San Francisco Left has a standing request for More support from Media, NEA, ACLU, Academic-Marxist et al, an agenda with more prayer rugs needed.

SirSeth

You are right. Turkey which has long been the beacon of secular islam is starting to slide into an Islamist style state with an increase of religiosly educated muslims occupying the military and beuaracracy. I'm glad they were blocked from the EU

Sirseth,

To my Rt. honorable friend, it is the PRESENT AMERICAN administration that is pushing for Turkey's membership, not some imagined "academic left" administration.

"San Francisco Left has a standing request for More support from Media, NEA, ACLU, Academic-Marxist et al, an agenda with more prayer rugs needed."

-Sirseth

See above.

ovidius_naso

I agree with you I been to north cyprus and its like you described it and sad that british retirees do not care that they are buying stolen property I guess the british goverment are pro Turk as Tony Blair said that Turkey should be allowed to join the EU with out any conditions on Cyprus.

I always hear in the Media that Turkey is a moderate secular muslim country lol but the media seems to forget that Turkey massacred millions of christians Armenians,Greeks and Assyrians Turkey has killed more christians then any other muslim country and if Turkey is democratic as the Media says it is then why do they have this law that who ever mentions the armenian genocide and occupation of cyprus goes to jail?

also RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN, the Turkish Prime Minister told the EU they risked Terrorism if Turkey was rejected from the EU http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0%2C%2C3-1401625%2C00.html

Granted the turks did off quite a few christians but that was before the secular reforms of Attaturk (which are now being undermined). The greeks did invade Turkey in the early 1920's though they lost handily in the end.

fatnun

3 million christians is few?

kemal ataturk was the consummator of the Armenian genocide in jan 1920 the kemalist attacked the city of marash which was accompanied by large scale slaughtering of Armenians

and what was ataturk's secular reforms? killing all the christians? i thought secular meant the freedom of all religions. And Greece invaded constantinople to reclaim what was stolen by the turks the only invaders where the turks not the Greeks

Hugh-

Can they at least have cranberry sauce?

I know lots of Europeans who love it.

The EU is already seeing the behaviour of their Muslim minorities! So why on earth do they want more of them from Turkey? Its only a matter of time beforeTurkey takes of the mask and show who they really are. The days when Turkey was a true secularist state has eroded over the past 20 years and now its a fully fledged Islamic state. Secularism is only a facade.
Turkey should never be allowed to join the EU.

"Its only a matter of time beforeTurkey takes of the mask and show who they really are."

They alread have been. In March of last year, Spiegel On Line wrote: "In the past four months, six Muslim women living in Berlin have been brutally murdered by family members."

The Turkish women's organization Papatya has documented 40 instances of honor
killings in Germany since 1996.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,344374,00.html

Even the PC Leftist news radio network NPR headlined it as "'Honor Killings' Plague Germany's Turkish Community" (notice the absence of the M or I words, though).

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4565134

And that's just Germany.

Yes, I see your point. From Lakeville bogs. And since Halloween is now copy-cattedly being celebrated in France, there may be a market for pumpkins, so why not for pumpkin pie?

Did anyone hear about the mega bucks new turkish movie coming out "Valley of the Wolves " Its about the United States going to war with Turkey. They managed to recruit two american actors. Gary Busy and Billy Zane. Safe to say these two must have no careers left. What sell outs. Especially Billy Zane who is Greek American he should know better. In the Movie Gary plays a Jewish doctor who steals organs from prisoners in an American style Abu Graib prison.

The US is one of Turkey's strongest supporters for admission to the EU even though there's a very strong anti-American sentiment among the Turks. Check out this article on Roger Ebert's website on a very popular Turkish action movie which features American soldiers as the bad guys.

"The latest in a new genre of Turkish popular culture that vilifies the United States, a Turkish movie shows American soldiers in Iraq crashing a wedding and pumping a little boy full of lead in front of his mother.

They randomly machine-gun dozens of people to death, shoot the groom in the head and drag those left alive to Abu Ghraib prison — where a Jewish-American doctor cuts out their organs, which he sells to rich people in New York, London and Tel Aviv. [...]"

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060202/SCANNERS/60202001







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