Hirsi Ali: ‘Everyone Is Afraid to Criticize Islam’

Hirsi Ali.jpeg

One of the most courageous women of our age, and one whose lovely visage immediately refutes the silly and stupid canard that opposition to the jihad supremacist ideology is “racism,” speaks truth to power in Der Spiegel:

SPIEGEL: Hirsi Ali, you have called the Prophet Muhammad a tyrant and a pervert. Theo van Gogh, the director of your film “Submission,” which is critical of Islam, was murdered by Islamists. You yourself are under police protection. Can you understand how the Danish cartoonists feel at this point?

Hirsi Ali: They probably feel numb. On the one hand, a voice in their heads is encouraging them not to sell out their freedom of speech. At the same time, they’re experiencing the shocking sensation of what it’s like to lose your own personal freedom. One mustn’t forget that they’re part of the postwar generation, and that all they’ve experienced is peace and prosperity. And now they suddenly have to fight for their own human rights once again.

SPIEGEL: Why have the protests escalated to such an extent?

Hirsi Ali: There is no freedom of speech in those Arab countries where the demonstrations and public outrage are being staged. The reason many people flee to Europe from these places is precisely because they have criticized religion, the political establishment and society. Totalitarian Islamic regimes are in a deep crisis. Globalization means that they’re exposed to considerable change, and they also fear the reformist forces developing among émigrés in the West. They’ll use threatening gestures against the West, and the success they achieve with their threats, to intimidate these people.

SPIEGEL: Was apologizing for the cartoons the wrong thing to do?

Hirsi Ali: Once again, the West pursued the principle of turning first one cheek, then the other. In fact, it’s already a tradition. In 1980, privately owned British broadcaster ITV aired a documentary about the stoning of a Saudi Arabian princess who had allegedly committed adultery. The government in Riyadh intervened and the British government issued an apology. We saw the same kowtowing response in 1987 when (Dutch comedian) Rudi Carrell derided (Iranian revolutionary leader) Ayatollah Khomeini in a comedy skit (that was aired on German television). In 2000, a play about the youngest wife of the Prophet Mohammed, titled “Aisha,” was cancelled before it ever opened in Rotterdam. Then there was the van Gogh murder and now the cartoons. We are constantly apologizing, and we don’t notice how much abuse we’re taking. Meanwhile, the other side doesn’t give an inch.

SPIEGEL: What should the appropriate European response look like?

Hirsi Ali: There should be solidarity. The cartoons should be displayed everywhere. After all, the Arabs can’t boycott goods from every country. They’re far too dependent on imports. And Scandinavian companies should be compensated for their losses. Freedom of speech should at least be worth that much to us.

Read it all.

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Comments

  1. says

    Well said, sister!

    After all, the Arabs can’t boycott goods from every country. They’re far too dependent on imports. And Scandinavian companies should be compensated for their losses. Freedom of speech should at least be worth that much to us.

    A simple solution is channeling all that Paley and ME aid from the EU back to the coffers of the boycotted firms.

  2. says

    How far we’ve fallen, when it takes courage to state
    the obvious, namely, that mohammad was

    …a tyrant and a pervert

    Here that Mohammadans? That’s the Truth! You can scream all you want, and kill people, but the
    simple fact, supported by your own unholy books,
    is that old ‘Mo was a tyrant and pervert. Get used to hearing it.

  3. says

    and the crazy thing is that she is a Somali refugee, which means that if Holland had stricter immigration control she wouldnt be now a Dutch MP and be able to speak out against Islam.

    the far right in europe want stricter immigration control – i disagree with that , precisely because of Hirsi Ali.

    A citizenship/values test should suffice – that’ll weed out the Islamists.

  4. says

    There should be solidarity. The cartoons should be displayed everywhere. After all, the Arabs can’t boycott goods from every country.

    What I said weeks ago. Governments should be printing and distributing handbills, billboards, newspaper ads, and TV ads by the millions with Mohammed cartoons and choice Koranic verses.

    This program should be kept up for decades. School hallways should be papered with such images. My personal fave quote would be from Big Bad Mo Himself:

    I have been made victorious with terror.
    — Bukhari V4B52N220

    I think that’d be mighty educational for everybody involved.

  5. says

    just thinking out loud here – is there any way we can start a campaign to get Ayaan Hirsi Ali the Medal of Freedom?

    Can somebody come up with some button/banner graphics – a website? something?

  6. says

    Well said. My only critique of what she said is:
    “The reason many people flee to Europe from these places is precisely because they have criticized religion.”

    That’s true in some cases. It is also true that many Muslims emmigrate to Europe and the West to spread Islam and to populate the West with their offspring. In the short term, they clandestinely infiltrate and enjoy our freedoms. Over the longer term (a generation or 2), they help establish a world-wide Caliphate. Once they achieve domination, there can be no reversal.

    How long will the West stay in the pot as the temperature begins to rise towards boiling?

  7. says

    In a world filled with pretenders, she’s the real deal — a true hero. A Muslim Woman who stands up for her convictions, exposing the real face of Islam, when it would be so easy for her to turn the other cheek, shut up, go with the flow. W should have have had her front and center at his State of the Union. Imagine what kind of message that would send? Here is a lady who dares to criticize Islam in a western country and has to go into hiding. This is itself an outrage. I liked what she said about standing together, having the west en-masse reprint these cartoons, to not back down, to lay the law down. Hell, bring her over here, I’d replace her for Condi in a dhimma minute.

  8. says

    biorabbi – look at this womans background. she was educated in a radical islamic school. she’s been through the Jihadist education system. she KNOWS what shes on about. State of the Union address, yes.

    Medal of freedom – definitely.

    its time to call the Saudi and Pakistani bluff.

  9. says

    There are stillmany papers that have not published the cartoons esp in the anglosaxon countries,lets help them out by asking for them to publish the cartoons and to stand by other papers who have done so as freedom of expression is the foundation of free society.

  10. says

    Hirsi Ali should win a Nobel Prize. Consider her intellectual brilliance, her moral virtue and bravery, her creative abilities, her drive and energy. Another reason she should win: She’s focussed on more important matters than winning any prizes.

    Some of my favourite quotes from the article, any one of which would send your average Islamist beyond rage and into orbit:

    “Hirsi Ali, you have called the Prophet Muhammad a tyrant and a pervert.”

    “There is no freedom of speech in those Arab countries where the demonstrations and public outrage are being staged.”

    [Note: “staged”]

    “We are constantly apologizing, and we don’t notice how much abuse we’re taking. Meanwhile, the other side doesn’t give an inch.”

    “There should be solidarity. The cartoons should be displayed everywhere.”

  11. says

    I don’t believe I have EVER seen her picture or a story about her in any MSM outlet.

    Indeed, the only place I’ve ever seen her mentioned is at sites like this.

    She’s certainly one of my heros.

    I’m going to pass the link on to Senator’s Boxer and Feinstein. I’ll bet they’ve never heard of her or her story.

    I’ve already passed it on to an interested senior editor at the Sacramento Bee.

  12. says

    It would make sense for two things to be done:

    1. NATO exists as an alliance for mutual defense. An attack on one member of NATO is to be regarded as an attack on all the members. Denmark has been attacked. Its embassies and consulates have been burned, vandalized, destroyed. Its citizens have been put on notice that everywhere they go in the Muslim world, they will be attacked and murdered, in order to “avenge” those anodyne cartoons. Danish products have been subject to boycott all over the Arab and Muslim world. A political, economic, and every other kind of attack is now being waged on Denmark, a member of NATO.

    NATO should call an emergency meeting to discuss this situation, and to come up with a joint response to this attempt by the Arab and Muslim peoples and polities to intimidate it. And then, instead of a “boycott” of Danish goods, let it be made clear that all access to the West, to its goods and services, will be cut off to any state that supports such a boycott. We don’t need them. They need us, desperately. They need our medical care, our higher education, our professionals who help, in the Gulf states and especially in Saudi Arabia, to make the damn countries run. Pull out the Western experts, and they collapse. It is important to make that point.

    2. Invite Hirsi Ali to the White House or if the White House is too chicken — the brave White House that is going to show Islam by refusing to “cut and run” in Iraq — then members of Congress, McCain, Tancredo, Lieberman, others — should invite her to address Congress.

    It will be an event. And it should be.

  13. says

    Archimedes:

    Re: “Hirsi Ali should win a Nobel Prize. Consider her intellectual brilliance, her moral virtue and bravery, her creative abilities, her drive and energy”

    Unfortunately the very qualities that you identified are the reason she won’t win a Nobel prize (Peace prize I assume). Just look at the motley collection who have recently won that prize and you will understand.

    It’s imposssible to overstate my admiration for this lady. I would vote for her in a heartbeat if I had the opportunity. You go girl!

  14. says

    The Nobel “peace prize” has been dragged through the pig sty and thoroughly contaminated by the likes of dhimmi khadr and arafat. I would not nominate anyone I respect for that completely defiled “honor” Hirsi Ali deserves better. Much better.

  15. says

    good point Hugh on the NATO option.

    trouble is the only European leaders with any spine in this debacle are Merkel, the dutch, Rasmussen and Berlosconi in Italy. and there is absolutely no spine whatsoever in the European Union.

    a sorry state of affairs which will only encourage the terrorists even more.

  16. says

    Our political “leaders” are kowtowing to tyrants and a perverts.

    Ali Hirsi is not. And yes: What does the Nobel peace price mean if it is given to swine like Arafat and El Baradei?

    I saw the Norwegian Foreign Minister on CNN just now and he is all for ‘constraints and more dialogue’ -hopeless!

    ”’ and right after that another ‘cleric’ who was telling us that the “muslims have been oppressed, attacked and colonized for 500 years now and how patient they all were to allow it, so now this just a reaction to the oppression and injustice…”

    interesting times indeed!

  17. says

    “What does the Nobel peace price mean if it is given to swine like Arafat and El Baradei?”

    excuse me. Arafat was a terrorist – and corrupt – and a bit of a baathist/marxist – but he wasnt an Islamist. big difference.

    lets get things in focus here before alienating the Arabs who want freedom and want to get rid of the craziness of Islam…

  18. says

    “And then, instead of a “boycott” of Danish goods, let it be made clear that all access to the West, to its goods and services, will be cut off to any state that supports such a boycott. We don’t need them. They need us, desperately. They need our medical care, our higher education, our professionals who help, in the Gulf states and especially in Saudi Arabia, to make the damn countries run. Pull out the Western experts, and they collapse.”

    I hate to rain on your parade, but the West is alot more dependent on Saudi oil than the Saudis are dependent on us. Experts from China, India, Russia and Malaysia could step in and provide the Saudis with at at least MOST of the expertise they draw from the West. But no other entity in the world can replace Saudi oil production capacity. Sever that relationship TODAY (as opposed to 20 years from now when – presumably – we’ll be better-placed to do so) and the Western world comes grinding to a halt…no differently than an automobile engine drained of its oil.

    The comments section here is an outlet for people to vent. The bluster is understandable given the level of frustration. But let’s not lose our sense of perspective…much less our grasp of reality.

  19. says

    lol Jack !

    That girl is a hero, so beautiful and so clever.

    She is a hero and there are other ones: please note that Philippe Val, the French editor of the well known satirical magazine “Charlie Hebdo”, is going to publish all the cartoons in the name of freedom of speech (cf my post on Dhimmi Watch, on the thread about the BBC), the day after tomorrow. He does not give damn if his life is threatened, as he calmy explained to the Imam he was confronted to on French Television yesterday night… I am going to subscribe to Charlie Hebdo.

    Hirsi Ali and Philippe Val are right when they claim that all the press in the free world should unanimously publish the cartoons. What do we fear from a bunch of hysterical, unclever, frustrated guys ? Actually, when I read the interview of Hirsi Ali, I realise that the only threat comes from ourselves, from the people who in the West are too scared of sounding unfashionable and yield to people who in fact, are just a bunch of scums.

  20. says

    indeed comelius – i sometimes wonder if some of the posters have any sense of realpolitik when they complain that Bush hasnt ordered the 1st armoured division into Saudi yet.

    Bush and Rummy are doing just fine – the “oil addiction” thing was a clear signal. thats enough – the saudis might pick up on it, but its a warning – for now. same deal with Rummy’s warning about a “global islamist empire”. again – a warning. this is realpolitik.

    it might escalate to a shooting war later. but for now, its enough for me.

  21. says

    “Hirsi Ali and Philippe Val are right when they claim that all the press in the free world should unanimously publish the cartoons. What do we fear from a bunch of hysterical, unclever, frustrated guys ?”

    in ireland , one of the newspaper editors is proposing that ALL newspapers in ireland publish the cartoons on the same day, on their front pages.

    judging by the talk radio in ireland, and the response from callers, it will more than likely happen. i wouldnt be surprised if this is something co-ordinated – it could well be a sign that a European wide cartoon publishing protest on a single day across Europe could be an idea thats gaining traction.

    it aint over yet. not by a long shot.

  22. says

    “Invite Hirsi Ali to the White House or if the White House is too chicken — the brave White House that is going to show Islam by refusing to “cut and run” in Iraq — then members of Congress, McCain, Tancredo, Lieberman, others — should invite her to address Congress.”

    -Hugh.

    No Hugh, it won’t happen. A champion of such “progressive” causes as gay rights could NEVER be considered a hero to a person like George Bush. Stop kidding yourself.

    The USA won’t make Hirsi a hero because it is so much LIKE the Moslems when it comes to sexuality. After all, this is the country that:

    1) refuses to give gays rights; no marriage, fine, but communities all over don’t even want us to have domestic partnerships; and
    2) refuses to allow gays and lesbians to even serve in the armed forces peacefully under “don’t ask don’t tell”; that is, even when they don’t TELL, they are still investigated;
    3) that has gays and lesbians serve in Iraq after “discovering” they are gay and they are discharged after a FULL tour of duty in the war;
    4) where the rights of homosexual federal workers are NOT SECURE as this administration is “reviewing” the policy that a pervious President had instituted prohibiting discrimination against gays;
    5) Expels CRUCIAL linguists speaking Arabic, Farsi, Urdu and Dari because the translators are gay.

    I could go on, but I think you get the idea. Rest assured Hirsi is no hero to Bush, but she is to me.

  23. says

    kafir – the U.S. needs to get rid of its gay hangups and join the rest of us. your points are valid.

    left , right, gay, straight, christian, atheist,liberal, right wing,libertarian to even communist – its western civilisation thats at stake.

    we can get back to our normal democratic debate once we defeat islam

  24. says

    kafir,

    Hirsi Ali stands for much more than gay rights. And despite what Bush thinks about gay people, that is not the reason why Hirsi would not be receieved. Instead of being considered a truth teller and dissident, the White House and the Arab Gulf Department consider her a polemicist at best and a troublemaker at worst who will contribute to the “clash of civilizations” that both the mainstream left and right are trying to hopelessly avoid. As long as Bush insists that the problem is “Islamism” and the lack of “democracy” in the Middle East and not Islam itself then Hirsi Ali, Ibn Warraq, Bat Ye’or, Robert Spencer, Hugh Fitzgerald, and Orianna Falacci will always remain persona nongrata. Let’s not make Islam into a partisan issue. Islam is not only bad for homosexuals, it’s bad for everybody. Most totalitarian systems are like that.

  25. says

    Archduke I am glad to hear that about Ireland. If all the countries did the same, then the fanatics would be obliged to be angry with everybody and it would be less easy for them. It is a shame that the UK does not publish the caricatures. Denmark has been isolated.

  26. says

    Hirsi is a real long shot for the Nobel (because of them not her), but if I remember correctly we have here in the states something called the Medal of Freedom or the Freedom Medal. I don’t know if it is limited to Americans. If there exists some member of Congress who is even half aware of the struggle against Islamofacists, then it would be worthwhile sending a few e-mails his or her way. A couple of days ago I sent one to the State Dept and look what Rumsfeld is saying now.

  27. says

    Hirsi Ali is one beautiful woman who knows what Islam is all about. She does not mix her words when speaking about Muslims & Islam. What a courages woman, we should all support her fully in all her endevours.

    All EU aid to Muslim countries should be stopped forthwith and diverted to countries such as Denmark, to make up the shortfall due to the stupid Islamic nations boycotting Danish products.

    The Muslims are so stupid & idiotic(even the ones living in the west), they cannot differentiate between a democratic Government, free speech, people and an independent newspaper.They will never understand the separation of state & religion and freedom of the press that exists in democratic societies, as all their governments are controlled by dictators, Tyrants, Idiotic, uneducated ( of course they could recite the Koran by heart), religious fanatics without the basic freedoms.

  28. says

    Archduke,

    A sensible immigration policy for Europe would be to accept only those individuals who favour European (i.e. Christian, Jewish and Humanist) values. This would include refugees from tyranny like Hirsi Ali.

    Europe can also absorb and integrate Hindus, Sikhs, Bahais, Parsis, and Buddhists since these religions represent common civilized values and are also in a life or death struggle with Islamic totalitarianism.

    On the flip side, they should immediately expell all the Imams, and all these Muslim protestors and rioters along with their families.

  29. says

    Archduke above claims ‘Arafat was not an Islamist’-

    Well mate, little do you know:

    In the West his islamic credentials were largely ignored. Perhaps in his earlier years the Islamo-thing was not as big as in his later years when he was hauled up in his compound in Ramallah and claimed he was “ready to be a martyr!”

    But if you really want to know ask Hugh Fitzgerald, he can write you a book on Arafats Islamic credentials!

  30. says

    agreed – a citizen test. like whats being proposed in one of the German provinces.

    and a specifically anti-islam test.

    i can go along with that.

  31. says

    Much as I loathe the BBC at the moment, they did do a radio interview with Hirsi Ali lasting 45 minutes, in which she spoke freely about Islam. The BBC keep such programmes on their website for only a week, which means, sadly that I’ve no link for this.

    The USA won’t make Hirsi a hero because it is so much LIKE the Moslems when it comes to sexuality.

    Come on, now? Do they stone them to death?

    In fact I agree with you about gay civil partnerships – we now have them in the UK, and the sky hasn’t fallen in. But face facts, things are a lot worse in the dar al islam.

  32. says

    shek – i know , i know- maybe later he turned islamist to curry favour amongst the masses in the face of rising islamism.
    but thats just politics. the PLO was emphatically NOT an islamist organisation.

    but anyway, Arafat is dead, the argument has moved on.

  33. says

    This beautiful and articulate woman has hit the nail right on the head… but will Europe listen?

    If the European Community had any principles at all, they would respond to any boycott of a single European nation with a complete cutoff by the EC. Saudi Arabia boycotts Denmark, then the Saudis are forbidden to buy anything from any European nation. No Saudi prices can vacation in St. Moritz, and all Saudi assets in Europe siezed to pay the Danes for their economic loss.

    The Muslims need all kind of European products while all they have to offer Europe is oil. Let Europe get oil from the North Sea or Russia and let the Saudis starve.

  34. says

    “Hirsi is a real long shot for the Nobel (because of them not her), but if I remember correctly we have here in the states something called the Medal of Freedom or the Freedom Medal. I don’t know if it is limited to Americans. If there exists some member of Congress who is even half aware of the struggle against Islamofacists, then it would be worthwhile sending a few e-mails his or her way. A couple of days ago I sent one to the State Dept and look what Rumsfeld is saying now.”

    its open to non americans.

    somebody needs to give her that medal. it means more , a lot more, than the nobel prize crap.

  35. says

    If your running away from Islam why bring it with you?
    A fresh start is needed, swear only one allegiance, and mean it, to one’s new country and traditions, language, and become its freedom, its ideas and ideals.

  36. says

    Interested,

    No, we are not stoned in the US, but the hatred of gays here in the US is so powerful in this administration, it causes them to act irrationally. The Bush team often acts just like the states it detests.

    See: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/wire/sns-ap-rice-gay-rights,1,165984.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

    US votes with Cameroon, China, Cuba, Iran, Pakistan, Russia, Senegal, Sudan and Zimbabwe to ban gay rights group from even attending a UN panel. The State Department stated that this was out of a fear the groups “advocated pedophilia”.

    Voting against the US: Chile, France, Germany, Peru and Romania.

    Colombia, India and Turkey abstained and the Ivory Coast was absent.

    I am glad to be informed by my Department of State that we gays are all pedophiles.

    OT: Then the Bush administration wonders why we are so suspicious of their actions that they don’t use warrants to monitor the Moslems. The dangers of abuse are enormous. But I am ok with the monitoring, just get a (secret) warrant. They have secret tribunals were a warrant could be gotten without public knowledge. They never said the law was in need of change, they simply refuse to follow it.

  37. says

    Well, Kafir Non-believer, maybe you should go whine to your radical brothers who give being queer such a bad rap.
    Most people, probably including Bush, could care less what you do in private. But if you think the government is going to force everybody else to believe it’s “normal” and “natural”, and “celebrate” it, you’re dreaming.
    Yeah, I know what the deal is. So be careful.

  38. says

    Enlightened nations should enact a “Reciprocity Statute” which states that the practice of Islam will be sanctioned within their countries only to the extent that the practice of infidel religions are sanctioned within Saudi Arabia.

  39. says

    Hirsi Ali calls moh a tyrant and a pervert. This is clearly the reality, given what he got up to. And his example is not an example for any decent human being to follow.

    What I’m struggling with is why do we keep hearing from Muslims that he was wonderful, kind, merciful, etc.?

    Are they ones who are deliberately fed a censored version of his life, and truly believe only the good (if there was anything good he did)?

    Or do they know what he was really like, and lie to us so that we’re kept in the dark as to the danger that Islam to us?

    Or do they know of his evil deeds, but figure that because it was against filthy kafir and unbelievers, oh well, it was justified and good?

    If I hear any Muslim on the radio, or read another things written by a Muslim on the Net, about how wonderful their “prophet” was, I’ll scream.

  40. says

    Feralee wrote:

    What I’m struggling with is why do we keep hearing from Muslims that he was wonderful, kind, merciful, etc.?

    I, too, often wondered about this. Reading the cooment from the BBC Have Your Say on the cartoon topic, many Muslims repeat the same mantra. One I remember in particular, that he was such a gentle man he would not even rise if there was a cat on his lap, etc., etc., etc. Do not Muslims ever read their own canonical texts?

    I also wonder when I hear from non Muslims that they have read the Koran and found it “beautiful.” What book did they really read? Is there some book out there that purports to be a Koran or a Koran Lite? I have read the three translations available from the Muslim Student Association on the USC website, and there is nothing beautiful in the way it is written or its content.

  41. says

    Kafir,
    I am a Catholic and I am a mostly supporter of Bush. But I do not agree with everything they say they believe in. I am not gay but I believe gays should have a voice, a platform, a freedom of expression everywhere and always. This is unconditional and not tied to any you-hate-my-enemies-or-I-will-hate-you. Not to get too milk-soppy about it, but I am proud to have you stand with me against Islamofacism.

  42. says

    Yeah, it’s quite puzzling, Lisa. The truth is so obvious, yet we continually hear the complete opposite – some fantasy of beauty and light.

    Moh gentle? Amazing, eh? I read some long-winded, soppy piece by a Muslim recently that claimed that Moh was persecuted and treated badly by others, yet never raised a hand, and carried on his dawa peacefully. !!! I’m thinking this is referring to his early days when he didn’t have henchmen or the power to slaughter those who laughed at him. Is it deliberate or are they truly kept in the dark about the later years?

    Yes, I, too, have been told by some non-Muslims that they’ve read the Koran and found it beautiful. I don’t know what to think of that either. Did they get a censored one from some smiling cleric down at the local mosque?

  43. says

    You nailed it, Kentim.

    Its the ‘in-your-face’ gay agenda, the promotion of the gay agenda ‘ueber alles’ that we object to. Who cares what two consenting adults do in private?

    But anyway, there is no need to deviate from topic: If gays come on board and are willing to fight the Islamo-fascists, welcome!

    But I’m not convinced that many of them smell the coffee, not yet…

  44. says

    feralee~ I have also wondered this. It is almost as if there are two Mohammed’s. Some people are reading one story and some people get a completely different story that just happens to have the same name. I don’t plan on spending years to sift through all the information so maybe some neutral expert can explain.

    Today, I heard a guy talk about how Mo would walk every day past a woman who would throw garbage on him and he did nothing to her. And when she did not throw garbage at him one day he went to visit her because he knew something was wrong. This same story I have seen repeated on blog’s by muslims. Was this when he was still weak. If he was such a sweet person why did she do that to him.

    Also, the ‘beautiful’ word gets thrown around always. Must be a mental thing. You have to be plugged in.

  45. says

    Everyone WAS afraid to criticize Islam.

    Otherwise a brave lady of acute perception.

    Europe invited in the Islamic infil-traitors as “gues workers” for decades after WW II (rather than clean their own streets or pack their own tulip bulbs) and now face the ignorant, ahistorical mess they created from laziness, both intellectually and literally.

    Maybe, with Ms. Ali, they have finally imported the cure.

  46. says

    Archduke:

    Who the hell are you trying to kid, Arafat was a
    stone cold Jihadi. So, “the PLO were emphatically
    not an Islamist organization” ,Why? because they
    allowed a few Christian Dhimmis along for the
    ride. I suggest before you spout of about Arafat
    again, you at least do a search through the brilliant archives on this very site.

    You’ve also stated that you disagree with tighter
    controls on immigration throughout Europe. Well
    Hirsi Ali would be one of the first to disagree with you there, as she has claimed many times in the past that Europe needs to slow down and look after the people that are already living here. I suppose if it were up to you you’d leave Europe’s current chaotic immigration system as it is, despite the present climate
    spreading so rapidly throughout all major cities, you’d leave more angry Islamists in, do you have any survival instincts? Speaking as a European, the last thing I want in my country is even more muslims threatening my way of life.

  47. says

    1. Cut off ALL AID to ALL muslim countries
    2. Prepare for an OIL boycott by the Islamo Faschists NOW
    3. Americans you better START Learning to
    Live without.

    Your SUV’s
    Your Large Boats
    Your Plane trips to the bahamas

    We will be forced to sacrifice..

    Here is where we will be the Strongest..
    Where the muslims and Islamic Faschists believe
    That the US and its citizens cannot survive without middle eastern oil…

    I sugest not only can we but We must CALL them to either DEAL or SHUT the Hell UP..

    I dont care about how Poor muslims feel .
    We should plaster these cartoons all over the place..

    And if ANY muslim attempts to stop us In our own country,,,

    Then we give them a taste of yankee justice..

    We dont tell the muslims what to do in their own countries..
    Hell we dont normally intervene in these countries as we would rather leave the muslims to lie in their own filth..

    But When threatened either with weapons of mass destruction (either by sadamm hussein or the new Islamic Terrorist in chief Irans pressident) Yuk i almost choke on that statement..

    But when threatened we responded and if the Liberals dont like it
    Too stinking BAD!!!

    But the Greenpeace folks will love this..
    An oil boycot will shutdown the Automobile industry…
    Meaning all these greenpeace nuts can be Kicked off of public welfare and force to actualy Work for a living..

  48. says

    “The Bush team often acts just like the states it detests.” from post above.

    So the state department decides not to attend a UN conference and this makes them “just like” Saudi Atabia?

    Maybe the Kennedys will nominate Hirsi for the Profiles in Courage Award. Yah, and maybe Mel Gibson will be nominated for an Academy Award.

  49. says

    http://spiritrebelious.livejournal.com/93983.htm~~ According to Islamic Law, a blasphemer MUST be Muslim. Anyone who commits Sabb Allah or Sabb al-rasul, are treated under the laws of apostasy. A non-Muslim speaking out against God or the Prophet Muhammad (saw), is only committing slander.

    .
    .
    This was from the above spiritrebelious blog. I wonder if this is correct or just more junk. No reference to her source.

  50. says

    Borg,

    If he was such a sweet person why did she do that to him.

    Good question. And wasn’t he poisoned by one of his women? She obviously didn’t think he was so sweet either. And how come we never hear of that woman he had murdered in her bed, her baby at her breast? Or that 100-year old poet who was killed? Both for “mocking” him. I’ve seen that posted on various forums, and there’s dead silence from the Muslims who had previously posted all wonderment and bliss about their prophet. And from the non-Muslim Islam-appeasers either a similar dead silence, or the poster is condemned for “promoting hatred of Muslims”. Yes, we must never bring anything negative up about Muslims, their prophet or their religion. (Yet, fire away at Christianity and Judaism, of course.)

    Sometimes I wonder if maybe Muslims do know what scum their prophet was but it would be personally devastating to accept their entire life is cemented in Islam, with no way out, so they just pretend it’s great to make themselves feel less guilty and disgusted with themselves.

    Or maybe it’s just good old taqiyya. Lying to protect Islam so that us naive Westerners keep ignorant of Islam’s intentions towards us.

  51. says

    Borg-

    They lie so much to infidels and each other about the Koran and Hadiths that they don’t even know what they’re saying any more.

    Get two “Muslim scholars” together and you’ll end up with three opinions (to update an old rabbi joke).

    I’ve read several translations of both the Qu’ran and Hadiths (to be able to judge who is being more p.c., or more slanted from some other perspective) and can judge the character of Mohammad from the combined results as: one more Atilla, Hitler or Mao.

    A run-of-the-mill vengeful megalomaniac… except with the one cosmically deadly advantage that none of these secular tyrants had: a convenient “God” in his back pocket.

    A Power that gave him the sword of eternal punishment for leverage to wave over the heads of credulous suckers.

    A thing far more potent than the simple threat of mere earthly pain (as the corrupt medieval “Christian” rulers had also discovered and which they used, for over a millenium, to keep the West’s peasants in a mental headlock -and themselves in “divine right of kings” clover).

    We flushed that nonsense down the Toilet of History with the European Renaissance and Enlightment and the American Revolution’s profound Declaration of Independence and Constitution.

    Muslims, however, aren’t allowed to think critically about their faith.

    So, they’re doomed to have us do it for them.

    With cartoons, -if all else fails to penetrate their numbed skulls.

  52. says

    Even Naseem admits that he did bad stuff. All this about pictures banned to prevent idolatry, which is excessive admiration or love for something, which seems to cover this situation, seems like more pretzel logic to me. If you don’t idoloize him, why emulate everything he did? And if you don’t idolize him why burn the towns. And say that he is higher than your children, which I heard one person say. If he was just a messenge and he didn’t want to be idolized, even to the point of not marking his grave to prevent a shrine, then why do they idolize him. Because even everything bad that he did still brought islam around so it’s ok? That’s Modhideen’s excuse. Even raping Safiya was ok because then she was brought to islam.The old circle logic in action. How can we ever co-exist?

    Or this isn’t about idolatry anymore, even though it started out with that. Now it’s about whoever insults a prophet, kill him. Well, I have a feeling old Mo didn’t hear the insult, so we’re all good. I think a challenge should be made about that being for his lifetime only. After all that is the excuse I keep hearing when the koran is compared to the old and new testaments. Historical, then for all time to live by. But then some muslims say the whole book is for all time. I’m having to learn more about this than I ever wanted to know and it isn’t getting any better. AAGGHHH MAKE IT GO AWAY!!!!!

    I get so sick of this crap.

    I guess Australia is next. The Courier-Mail.

  53. says

    Hey, maybe it’s a left brained, right brained thing?

    How could you get through that crap twice and not lose your mind?

  54. says

    OH YEAH, I know now, it has to be read in the only true language and you read it in english so you just couldn’t GET it. Yeah, that’s it. The only language in the whole world that can’t be translated properly.

    Another one I’ve heard constantly as the excuse for it not being so beautiful to non-arabs.

  55. says

    Sheik,

    I smell the coffee and I am with you. Admittedly, there are not many like me. But having me in this arena with you will not make me forget other wrongs, not simply Moslem ones. If you believe that the 5 points I made to Hugh are “in your face” gayness, then too bad. I hardly think those issues to be gay “uber alles”. Asking that we are treated fairly is hardly radical.

    By the way, why do you like Hirsi and van Gogh? Is it only because they are fighting Islam for you? Do you personally have Hirsi’s values like I do, or Moslem ones?

    I agree she is a great woman. I loved Van Gogh too. Just as I was crushed when Pim Fortuyn died. Since he was openly gay, was Pim too “gay in your face” too?

  56. says

    Yes, Brisbane’s Courier Mail did publish one of the cartoons in its Saturday edition. I’ve just heard security at Danish consulates will be reviewed.

    Our paper here has a phone poll going asking if newspapers should print the cartoons. Not sure if it’ll make a difference to the average Bruce or Sheila here as most have seen them on the Net. From talkback radio calls, only a tiny minority are sympathetic with the Muslims’ rage, and they’re all Muslims. Even the ones calling to say publishing them was stupid, they don’t condone the lunacy and disgusting behaviour.

    Borg, odd how they’re so paranoid about this “idolatry”, yet barely bat an eye at live human beings having their heads hacked off and people being blown up at work or while having a pizza. Twisted “logic”, alright. But then we’ve been denigrated to less than human by them, since day one, they don’t seem to feel compassion for anything bad that happens to us. We’re nothing to them. It’s all about them. Only they count.

  57. says

    I don’t know why the gay lobby isn’t bringing this into the news more. More and more gays are bashed for walking together out in public, but instead of making a big deal of it, nothing gets said. The media loves a “hate crime” story. At least around here. Any time a gay person is hurt it is always the lead story for days. At least when it doesn’t involve a muslim.

  58. says

    Like Hugh said many times. It’s a world of the believer or the non-believer. That’s everything to them.

    You’ll never hear them wonder why God would make people unbelievers if he controls all things. If he guides whom he will why not just guide everyone. Seems so simple to me.

  59. says

    Nice link Johnathan. He is from the same part of the world as Naseem claims. I wonder if she has read any of his work. He’s probably banned in his own country. For having a brain.

  60. says

    profitsbeard: ” Muslims, however, aren’t allowed to think critically about their faith.

    So, they’re doomed to have us do it for them.

    With cartoons, -if all else fails to penetrate their numbed skulls.

    How true profitsbeard! Islam is a faith that has no real intellectual tradition. Mind control and manipulation are at the heart of Islam. It is no surprise that Muslims are afraid of freedom of expression. Islam can’t cope with freedom because it frees the mind and gives power to the individual. Islam works in reverse. Islam dulls the mind and removes power from the individual (especially women).

  61. says

    OT~ They suffer from never having heard a classical orchestra at it’s best. It really would be a crime against civilization if artistic expression would be destroyed by the sickness as it spreads. I don’t think music and art will ever be stamped out. Even primitive man would draw on the walls of caves and play music on a blade of grass. Their chanting just can’t compare. Hmm, maybe all muslim children should take music lessons for a few years. That could free them up.

    And question~ when the taliban swept into power they destroyed all photo’s. Against the religion, they said. But all the mullah’s have THEIR posters all over the walls and that’s ok. I wonder how they reconcile that one. Oh, yeah, they just say the other is not a good true muslim. Right?

  62. says

    I didn’t realize Hirsi was gay until I read this blog. How do I feel about that? She should get the Congressional Medal of Honor and be recognized by Bush at the next State of the Union. Her private life is irrelevant. If you look at the United States, we evolve. Where we have slavery . . . we have emancipation. We think and criticize one another’s viewpoints. Pro-gay marriage, anti-gay weddings. Pro death penalty, Pro choice . . . whatever . . . for any cause . . . there are three viewpoints. Look, Americans are not perfect, nor is the west in general. There is bigotry and hatred, but we are also blessed with a weird, almost cosmic editing mechanism as well. Once the great hatred in this country was hatred towards the Irish who sought economic refuge in America. One can criticize the religious right’s perspective on homosexuality or abortion, but the last time I checked, there were no beheadings recently in Lynchburg, Virginia or ‘Jihadist’ videos on the 700 club. When somebody blows up an abortion clinic, or federal clinic, or kills a doctor who performs abortions or murders Matt Shepard, there put in the clinker where they belong and criticized by the overwhelming majority of the popluation.

    where is this self-editing mechanism in the Moslem world? In Iraq? How about how the Iranians treat young homosexuals or what happens if, god forbid, your sister has an affair with another man in Pakistan? She won’t look pretty for very long after that acid is thrown in her face — or worse. What happens when a leader of the religious right makes an inappropriate comment after 911 where the blame of 911 lays? He apologizes. yes, that’s right Falwell and Pat Robertson apologized. Was it hollow? I don’t think so, but who knows. Isn’t there a great line in a movie that is apt here — Love Story, I think — ‘Being Muslim means you never have to say I’m sorry.”

    For every nefarious impulse you might ascribe to the West . . . treatment of Jews, blacks, gays or whatever the issue is . . . by and large, there is a self-editing function. One might argue the opposite is true within Islamic thought. Isn’t it strange that in the 1600’s and 1700’s, Muslim ‘art’ depicted Muhamad, but now this is completely taboo. Isn’t it strange that the Saudis are today destroying all remnants of ancient Mecca to prevent idoloatry. If this were so important, why didn’t their ancestors do this? Didn’t those Buddhist statues exist in Afganistan exist within a Muslim culture for over a thousand years? It’s is almost as if stagnation is the wrong word for Islamic society . . . retrogression is a better one.

  63. says

    I think if you scratch around regarding Hirshi Ali, you will find a statement wherein she said she was gay. Read this sometime back.

    Not that it makes any difference…

    Evil is as evil does, and Islam is evil.

  64. says

    I am looking at a picture of Michelangelo’s, “The Rome Pieta” and for some reason I am not outraged by the depiction of Christ and the Virgin Mary but deeply moved by the beauty of it. I am not tempted to worship it and I want with every breath in my body to save it from oblivion.

    In regards to the Presidential Freedom of Medal for Hirsi Ali I am planning to take out advertisements in the northern Californian papers asking that she be considered for that honor. It shouldn’t cost all that much. I would like to do a billboard also but the board owners would probably be afraid of having their billboard burned down.

  65. says

    Borg-

    As Nietzsche said of another book:

    I always put on gloves when I read it.

    Mental ones.

    And taking breaks to watch the Marx brothers and Monty Python helps. (“The Coconuts” and “The Life of Brian”, especially.)

    Believe me, it was a shock when I first read the Koran (after having heard it compared to the Bible), about 2 decades ago.

    Since I was naively expecting something like “The Songs of Solomon” combined with “The Sermon on the Mount”, and got “The Bronze Age Mein Kampf” (with a mock marzipan coating to make it go down better) instead.

    I retched for days.

    Mentally.

    But sometimes you just gotta do it and get through it.

    Like taking snake bite venom.

    (Which reminds me of an older book worth reading: “Earth Abides”.)

  66. says

    Muslims reasons to justify Mohammad’s marriage to Aisha
    1. Marrying 6 year olds was ok in those days.
    2. Girls matured sooner in those days.
    3. Girls mature sooner in dry climates.
    4. To teach her true islam.
    5. She was a reject (had marriage proposals turned down) so he done her a favour.
    6. To establish a relationship with Abu Bakr.
    7. She was Allah’s gift to him via the angelic dream.
    8. Married her when she was 6 but consummated when she was 14.
    9. I don’t see what the problem is.
    10. You are a “#”£$”£!$##’ I’ll chop your head off.
    11. Allah gave him this privilege, you are just envious.
    12. Why do you only bash Mo even catholic priests perform such acts.

  67. says

    Kafir:
    “…But having me in this arena with you will not make me forget other wrongs, not simply Moslem ones. If you believe that the 5 points I made to Hugh are “in your face” gayness, then too bad. I hardly think those issues to be gay “uber alles”. Asking that we are treated fairly is hardly radical…”

    Who cares? It doesn’t belong here, period. Just like race. Just like left and right. Its Islam against the rest of the world, and we need to unite and find some resolve to keep our world free of them. It doesn’t matter if your short or tall, old or young, male or female or just tired: Lets fight the bastards and get on with it. Keep personal issues away from this site, it only distracts and deflects.

    Great link Jonathan!

    while I’m typing this I’m listening to Monita Rajpal of CNN who tells me that freedom of speech is perfectly okay with those in London calling for our destruction and glorifying 9/11 and 7/7 among other thing like head-chopping.

    Getting stranger by the minute!

  68. says

    Scuse me but if the muslims are against idolatry what do you call prostrating yourself on the floor and praying to and worshiping the kaabah five times a day. Sure looks like idol worship from my standpoint.

  69. says

    Back on the topic of the cartoons, the round-table on Special Report w/ Brit Hume finally hit the nail on its head. To paraphrase:

    Fred Barnes: “This is not al-Qaeda protesting, this is mainstream Islam“.

    Charles Krauthammer: “If this was about the right to free speech vs. the right of a religion not to be insulted, it would be one thing. But since we’ve seen all the insults that are hurled at Jews & Christians in government newspapers in Syria and Egypt, it’s clear that this is about Islamic supremacy. And it is something that all in the West have to be against.”

    Fred & Charles made my day! I had been losing faith in FoxNews, but finally, 2 people flushing out all the euphamisms.

  70. says

    Hirsi Ali is truly a very brave woman, my hats off to her. She has the guts so few, if any, have to stand up for the truth and say it loud. God bless her.

    sheik yer’mami wrote:

    “while I’m typing this I’m listening to Monita Rajpal of CNN who tells me that freedom of speech is perfectly okay with those in London calling for our destruction and glorifying 9/11 and 7/7 among other thing like head-chopping.”

    Its better that they show their true colors and slowly open the eyes of the blind public who refuses to realise that these monsters want to kill everyone who isn’t a muslim. At least we see our demons out in the open instead of wearing sheep’s clothing. What really gets me is how they get away with calling for Jihad in the middle of London and clearly broadcasted on the News (CNN, BBC, CBC etc)?

    @ dms: Yes muslims are idol worshippers, they just have a hard time admitting that they have an addiction to a big cube filled with the idols of the TEMPLE of Kabaa. And they have the nerve to call us Hindus idol worshippers, bloody Moon worshippers.

    @ Tushar Saxena: How dare you tell the truth about Mo. He was just a poor lonely pedophile, hooked of some serious drugs, who had a vision (probably an LSD trip), that’s all.

    -Cheers

    Ayo Gorkhali!!!

  71. says

    Rabbi,

    I respect your post, so please don’t take this post as a personal attack. I enjoy reading your other many posts and hoe to engage you in discussions in the future. Nonetheless, I wanted to comment on your post. You essentially are saying that as a gay and presumably an “undesirable”, I ought to simply sit down and shut up and be happy for not being stoned. That is not going to work. I am not saying the Americans are the worst on the planet – far from it. In fact I love this country and truly believe, perhaps foolishly, that Americans will come around to a sense of fairness. But we ought not compare our civilization to the lowest common denominator on the planet when determining how evolved or fair we are.

    When Pat Robertson stated that gays caused 9/11, that had a huge impact on millions of Americans. Any apology afterwards rings hallow. The damage was done. His statement is an outrage.

    I work to defend this nation, albeit in my own small way. Haven’t you all figured out yet we aren’t all florists and are just as capable of being tough? For every gay you see, there are 5 you don’t. Did you know that one of the four men who retook (briefly) control of the plane over Pennsylvania was a gay man? Go study ancient Greek armies and tell me which legions were among the most ferocious.

    I am not your enemy. Hirsi is not your enemy. Islam is. So gays shouldn’t be treated like the enemy. The hostility by so many on this site is very evidence. However, I stay because I am like-minded. But I will not be silenced and told that to ask for some equal rights is being “gay uber alles”. I have never made a plea for anything other than fairness. Keep your religion, Christian or Jew, Buddhist or Hindu. Leave me out of it all because I do not believe in any deities. Protect me with the laws of the state and I am fine.

    Moreover, I remind you that not being stoned/tarred and feathered/hung/tortured/shot/impaled/interned/deported/denied visitation/imprisoned in an insane asylum/quartered/subjected to mayhem as Christians (and some Jews) once did to us (not too long ago), is not enough to placate me, sorry. I suppose wildly religious persons on this site might deem me to be a “gay radical” because of my views. I find it amusing that there are such troglodytes believe that since I am referred to as “frighteningly conservative” by most gays. There must be something wrong with both camps, wouldn’t you say?

  72. says

    Dunno why my post got snipped, but here’s what I meant to write:

    Also, Ollie North on Hannity & Colmes: “Islamic Moderate is an oxy-moron”

    When Colmes attacked him for that comment, Ollie challenged him, “Find me 5 Muslim leaders who would be willing to condemn this on the show tomorrow.”

    It would be interesting to see Colmes rise to that challenge.

  73. says

    @Interested
    Kandahar was (is?) the gay capital of Asia but under the Taliban gays who were caught were punished by felling a wall on them.

  74. says

    Regardless of how you feel about homosexuality, we are all threatened by the rise of islamofascism. Whether you are a bible thumper or an atheist, KKK or Velvet Mafia, we all face the same threat and that is from militant islam. I for one am glad to hear from all points of view here.

  75. says

    Islamic leadership: Imams, Clerics, political & social leaders, & Mullahs, across the world are fully responsible for the riots, property destruction, & boycotts. Muslim hooliganism over Mohammed cartoons, is unjustified. Muslims are constant users of selected free speech, when they promote anti Buddhist, anti Hindu, anti Christian, anti Semitic, anti Western, & anti everything else, each day of the year, in & out of their Mosques. Muslims also wish for non Muslim minorities, to pay a special tax (or penalty), therefore, challenging economically deprived peoples, to convert to Islam. Muslims are not friendly to non Muslim human beings, when this type of behavior continues, mostly unobstructed for thirteen centuries, since the first appearance of the Koran.

  76. says

    The only “fairness” that is appropriate to enforce is in the area of government(according to the Constitution).
    In a free society people are free to choose who they will associate with and are free to make up their own minds about what they think and believe.
    The trick that gives the government the power to coerce politically-correct thought upon society is to involve government in every area of society, they go through the back door of our homes and put a virtual gun to our heads and tell us how we will think, what we will think, and how we should live.

    The Marxists always said, “everything is political”, and in this way politicized everything. When everything is politicized, government and politicians are given legitimacy to control everything. Another side benefit is to get more and more people tied to and dependant on government, to have a vested interest in its survival and expansion.

    This is the real goal of Marxism. Basically, to get everybody to be a government employee. Subcontracting, subsidies, funding, regulation etc, etc, all tie seemingly independant entities to the government, and therefore will foster a pro-government attitude.

    But of course there must be a group of managers(supreme soviet?) that makes the final decisions at the top of the pyramid, so while the appearance that there is “democratic” rule is at the surface level, that “the people” are the “government”, the truth is there is a clique of elites that will propagate and determine what they see as correct policy.

  77. says

    Maybe I should clarify the “pro-government attitude”. It can manifest itself as submission, acceptance, rationalization, or apathy of the parent-child relationship between government(caregivers?) and it’s subjects(patients?).

  78. says

    For those wondering what others are thinking out in the blogosphere

    http://www.technorati.com/

    the site links blogs and lists how many are talking about a subject. 8,600+ discussing the muslim cartoon situation in the last four hours.

    Karfir Nonbeliever~

    If religious people believe “God hates homosexuals” but also “God doesn’t make mistakes” will their head explode? Or just believe that homosexuals chose to be so because God would not “make” them so if he hates them? If he controls all things why not just change them?

    Must hurt the head to go around in circles so much.

    My previous above answer fits here also just substitute the word homosexual for the word unbelievers.

    Like so~
    You’ll never hear them (believers) wonder why God would make people homosexual if he controls all things (but hates homosexuals). If he guides whom he will ( and never makes mistakes and creates all perfection) why not just guide everyone (and make everyone heterosexual if that is what he truely wants). Seems so simple to me.

    I guess that is why the devil is so important in organized religion. Somebody has to be blamed for things not making sense. If there is a God and if he is perfect, then homosexuals are important in his scheme or he wouldn’t keep creating so many.

    Just call me ‘Spock’ today.

    Fan-of-Hugh

  79. says

    I hope this does not turn into a religious debate,but, Borg, your logic is flawed. It is based on a non-supportable pre-supposition. In other words you assume something you do not know at the beginning, and proceed to show the illogic of that pre-supposition.]
    Apart from describing the basic muslim point of view(which I believe you were not restricting it to), It is meaningless.

    I am not defending a metaphysical idea, I am a non-believer myself. But I do know a little about Christianity. Truth is truth, no matter where it comes from.

  80. says

    El Cid, Friedns from JW/DW,
    You might find this interesting – the Polish daily “Reczpospolita” printed 2 of those cartoons on Saturday. The Polish Muslim Council not later than yesterday was threatening to take the paper to court (where are my peaceful polonized Polish Tatars gone? With the wind of Saudi Arabia, where they go to train themselves to be good Muslims!) unless the chief editor apologizes on the front page of his paper every day for a week in BIG BOLD letters! What cheeks! In fact he did apologize verbally, but only for “hurting” the feelings of the Muslims, but stating that he would do the same again and that his intention was Solidarity with Denmark, in other words he did it the JPost’s dignified manner. Today the Polish Muslims started retreating – there was so much pressure on the government and media, people sighing petitions in defence of the newspaper etc. The editor was being pressurized to resign (by the co-op owning the paper), but he declared that he has no intention of doing so!

    http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/kraj/1,34308,3151450.html
    http://gospodarka.gazeta.pl/gospodarka/1,33181,3150673.html

    (above and below is the brave editor Grzegorz Gauden under attack – he looks worried)

    http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,53600,3149750.html

  81. says

    I was trying to show “illogic”.

    Non-supportable pre-supposition?

    Assume something I do not know?

    That is faith in a nutshell. It’s all non-supportable and how can anyone “know”. That is why it is “faith”. It’s Truth to believers only.

  82. says

    Islamic leadership: Imams, Clerics, political & social leaders, & Mullahs, across the world are fully responsible for the riots, property destruction, & boycotts.

    No they are not responsible. They are only articulating God’s commandments as taken from the Noble Koran and the Holy Sunnah.

    How dare you challenge a man’s right to freely practice his religion.

  83. says

    Hey, Hey, Hirsi Ali is a FOX!!! I knew it! Great picture of her!!! C’mon I’m a guy that appreciates a very attractive woman and Ms. Ali is the real deal. Beauty, intelliegence, and bravery, what a combination. Glad She’s out there doing her thing to expose Islime for the fraud that it is, toward woman. No wonder Pakistan didn’t want her to adress the United Nations of the Third World. Men tend to pay more attention to a pretty woman than one that is less attractive. Sorry ladies, it’s a fact.
    Her story is compelling and it should get her a shot on the Oakra Winfrey Show. As much as she is for womens rights and all, we’ll se if this happens.
    She is right in what she is saying. Lets see who was listening. I most diffenately was!!! Not sexist, just the truth!!!

  84. says

    Kafir Nonbeliever: “When Pat Robertson stated that gays caused 9/11, that had a huge impact on millions of Americans. Any apology afterwards rings hallow. The damage was done. His statement is an outrage. ”

    Typical… whinge about being stereotyped, then judge straight America by this wind-bag.

    Kafir Nonbeliever: “I work to defend this nation, albeit in my own small way. Haven’t you all figured out yet we aren’t all florists and are just as capable of being tough? For every gay you see, there are 5 you don’t. Did you know that one of the four men who retook (briefly) control of the plane over Pennsylvania was a gay man? Go study ancient Greek armies and tell me which legions were among the most ferocious.”

    In no particular order, the Navy Seal I met in grad school was perhaps the most dignified individual I’ve met, my equal with a sword and a martial arts instructor. That said, so long as you allow the dominant image of gay America to be the nearest “Gay Pride” parade, complete with leather boyz, drag queens and fringe elements, the gay community will be marginalized.

    As for the Spartans, I admire their fighting skill, but their fascistic totalitarian city state had little else to admire.

  85. says

    Kafir,
    I’m not unsympathetic to your points on this thread, but isn’t there an open question on the pedophilia issue with regards to the ilga? I mean, from what I read (starting with your latimes link and continuing elsewhere), they have expelled nambla, which used to belong to the association, and then required all member orgs to sign a “we support 18 as age of consent” pledge. But apparently over half did not sign, and so the thing drags on.

    Is this true, or am I reading propaganda? Honest question.

  86. says

    Not that it matters but, the “unsupportable pre-suppositions” you made concerns the word “hate”, and numerous other assumptions about what “believers” actually believe, or what ‘god” is and “does”.

    Also, by argueing the non-existence of a supernatural being you are in fact falling into a trap, since the idea of a supernatural being is non-sensical, because there is no actual reason to believe, argueing/debating about it is non-sensical. The claim of the existence of god is a pseudo-proposition, but your claim that there is not is also one, therefore both are meaningless. And really are not worth the time of day.
    This holds true for all metaphysical ideas.

  87. says

    re Hirsi Ali and the Nobel Prize, some posters have raised the point that some bad choices have been made in the past. The way I look at it, it’s still a prestiguous award, and she still deserves it. Moreover, whatever prestige has been lost, her receiving it would restore its honour. I also think she could do good things with the money…like that “Life of Brian” version for the “Life of Mohammad” movie that she was talking about making.

  88. says

    “Kafir,
    I’m not unsympathetic to your points on this thread, but isn’t there an open question on the pedophilia issue with regards to the ilga? I mean, from what I read (starting with your latimes link and continuing elsewhere), they have expelled nambla, which used to belong to the association, and then required all member orgs to sign a “we support 18 as age of consent” pledge. But apparently over half did not sign, and so the thing drags on. Is this true, or am I reading propaganda? Honest question.”

    -Mountainecho

    I am certainly no expert on the ILGA. I am far from politically active on most gay issues. From what I read about the subject, it appeared unjustified. Who knows if it was. I remain skeptical and put the onus on this administration to prove otherwise after the awful attacks on gays from this administration.

    If in fact the group favored pedastry I would vehemently repudiate it in the strongest terms and deny them visas. Any such thing is a disgusting crime in my opinion. But I simply don’t know. I will admit to perhaps some hypersensitivity on this issue and also admit that there might possibly be reasonable grounds for the ban. However, as I stated, I am unconvinced. Over sensitivity tends to develop when your group is incessantly attacked in a country.

    When I posted it, I had not at that time read too much about the subject. I posted it with the intent of showing yet recent another in a series Bush attacks on gays. Perhaps this particular one had some basis in justification, perhaps not. If you know more about it, I would love to find out. Nevertheless, the fact remains there are a plethora of other vicious attacks by this administration.

    WHERE OR WHERE ARE THE GOLDWATER REPUBLICANS THAT I MIGHT FIND THEM AND SUPPORT THEM!

    I am tired of Bush domination over the Reps. Might McCain get my support? Yes, he is about as Goldwater as you can get in 2008.

    Hey, by the way, what ever happened to socially moderate Republicans? Have most republicans become “Christianists” (the new term I recently read from Andre Sullivan likening them to Islamists)? Do all Republicans believe the rapture is imminent? One would hope not.

    I’d like to share a story with you. At age 10, I told my late atheist grandmother that I believed Jesus was coming; that he was coming very soon, she looked at me and smiling and said:

    “Sonny, I’m an old woman. You say Jesus is coming before the end of the millennium. Well, due to my age I surely won’t be alive then to see you looking up to the sky, but hopefully you will be. I want you to remember my face, she would say, remember me smiling upon you when you look to the heavens decades from now. If you get desperate and feel the need for heavenly help, remember me smiling upon you and look inside yourself for the strength you need. You know you have it. I am sorry to disappoint you but there is no savior coming, but I won’t lie to you about these things like adults do to kids about Santa Claus. You must study hard and work hard in your life and live life to its fullest. You are very bright (ok she was wrong) and can do anything you want in this world, but you will find great frustration unless you stop awaiting the arrival of divine beings. One more thing, don’t let anyone convince you to worship a political figure, political party or any country as a god. There are no gods. There are only people, bad and good.”

    Source: (1970s) Romanian Grandma

    I left disappointed, but decided I would study a great deal in my life and make her proud if she could see me. When I hear people suggesting the rapture, I see her face in my mind and smile. When I studied for the bar exam years ago I debated whether to pray or not. I decided not to pray and instead meditated and imagined the face of my grandmother telling me to find my strength from within. A smile came to my face and I knew I had it in me to do it. I needed no deity. True story!

  89. says

    This whole site is because of religious beliefs of some people and the effect on others.

    argueing/debating about it is non-sensical. The claim of the existence of god is a pseudo-proposition, but your claim that there is not is also one, therefore both are meaningless. And really are not worth the time of day.

    Isn’t that ^ an arguement/debate? And so not worth the time of day also.

  90. says

    “argueing/debating about it is non-sensical. The claim of the existence of god is a pseudo-proposition, but your claim that there is not is also one, therefore both are meaningless. And really are not worth the time of day.”

    Perhaps you are right, but I enjoyed telling the story as it means something to me.

  91. says

    Borg wrote:”Isn’t that ^ an arguement/debate? And so not worth the time of day also.”

    No actually, it’s a statement of fact. If you care to dispute it, you will be argueing in favor of a metaphysical idea. That is the real problem. Seeing, hearing, experiencing is believing. Evidence,observation, correspondence, and facts= truth. Truth = probability. There is no absolute, but some things come close.
    I won’t debate the existence of “god”, but I will argue the validity of metaphysical ideas pertaining to truth and reality.

  92. says

    Kafir,
    I have no intention of censoring you, but there are always at least two sides to an issue, and my main OBSESSION is seeking the “truth”. I just go where the evidence leads me, even if it’s somewhere I really would be better off not going. What I mean is ; ignorance really is bliss. Sometimes the truth hurts, sometimes the truth is considered insane, sometimes the truth can knock a person on their ass.
    That’s why it’s so illusive. And in this day and age, it’s almost taboo. But it does exist.