Kosovo Bishop Warns Not to Hand Jihadists a Victory

Interesting - anyone got any links on Russia's attitude to this?

BTW, London's Mayor "Ken" Livingstone has been suspended for 4 weeks for bringing his office into disrepute over his anti-Semitic remarks to a Jewish journalist. Readers will doubtless recall Livingstone has close relations with the notorious Islamist leader Yusuf al-Qaradawi.

Everyone knows that the US and EU WILL abandon the Serbs and allow the muzzie hoards to rape, murder and enslave them. Business as usual for the religion of toilets.

As we all know, there have been dozens of monasteries - frescos with great cultural traditions lost. Historic churches have been completely destroyed in Kosovo. The secular media, no doubt not seeking to “offend” the reportably aggrieved Moslems of Bosnia, falsely believed that in Kosovo, the ”bad guy” must be the same, failed to report it. Interestingly, the Catholic Church has remained silent as usual, as if those churches meant nothing. The Protestants too have been largely silent. Moreover, there is such little coverage of this in the world. Even as a secularist, I can appreciate both the beauty and culture that houses of worship provide to the world. Such places must be held in reverence even if one does not believe in a deity. This reverence has not been shown to the Serbs.

If someone were to destroy one of California’s Franciscan missions, even though I am not a Christian, I would be incensed. I view them as part of my heritage as a Californian. But if a Moslem destroys houses of worship in Serbia, it gets no mention in the news.

Perhaps the even bigger story is the Albanians’ pursuit of a greater Albania. They won't stop at Kosovo. They will want most of Macedonia, South Serbia and parts of Montenegro. Then, it is on to Greece, where parts will have to be ceded for the jihad. Once the new baby ottomans are nicely seated right inside of Europe, they can begin to show their true face: the face of Islam.

Albania appears secular on the surface, but Albanian Moslems are being radicalized inside of Albania. Moreover, the Albanians outside of Albania itself, specifically in Kosovo, are increasingly radical. Please read this Bulgarian account of Wahhabism in the Balkans. http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?focus=analys&a=2&aid=7746&acat=3
Please write your representatives, and inform him or her that you oppose any move to allow Kosovo to be independent or even to withdraw our 1700 US troops from there. Without those troops, the last Serbians would be killed.

Last, giving Kosovo independence has huge implications to many countries in the region, and beyond. Do we justify violence as a means of independence? If all you have got to wait is about 10 to 15 years, all minorities should take up arms and seek to be independence. Do Moslems have special rights?

The EU must tell Kosovo and Albania that the current state boundaries must not change, if these states are ever to join the EU someday.

Migrate to a region, don't assimilate, wait until the numbers are enough, demand independence, kill until you get it.

Same story, different place.

"Migrate to a region, don't assimilate, wait until the numbers are enough, demand independence, kill until you get it.

Same story, different place."

-Borg

Albanians are natives of the region, but their culture was devastated by the Turks. This is a special situtation.

Actually most of the Albanians there are not native to Kosovo. Most of them moved there (about 300,000 of them or more) about 2-3 years after the fall of the Soviet Union. This was documented by the Washington Post just before we started bombing the Serbs.

Bill Abu Clinton for the first president of a newly independent Kosovo!

(And Hillary in a burqa.)

Why would I think "Albanians" would be from Albania? Not natives of Serbia?

I have been in Kosovo for 2.5 years working in an intel position. I can tell you, this place is ripe for the next radical Islamists training ground. Although Muslims here are moderate for the most part the fact that there is no infrastructure, no economy, no industry, corruption, ignorant/ uneducated 'follower' mentality looking for the 'Great One' to 'make things better'...this place reminds me of cattle going to slaughter...reminds me of Nazi Germany. Remember, this is the jump on/ off point to Europe/ Middle East...wahhhabism is already planting seeds...stay tuned as this place deteriorates.

I have been in Kosovo for 2.5 years working in an intel position. I can tell you, this place is ripe for the next radical Islamists training ground. Although Muslims here are moderate for the most part the fact that there is no infrastructure, no economy, no industry, corruption, ignorant/ uneducated 'follower' mentality looking for the 'Great One' to 'make things better'...this place reminds me of cattle going to slaughter...reminds me of Nazi Germany. Remember, this is the jump on/ off point to Europe/ Middle East...wahhhabism is already planting seeds...stay tuned as this place deteriorates.

The Serbs will defend the Serbs if it comes to it. I would guess the PC types in the EU to claim Islamiaphobicism (I invented a new word). I used to look at the Serbs as the bad guys but after visiting the balkins myself, I now understand where I went wrong.

OT, some guy at LGF just posted this story.

Might cool the adour for multiculturalism in Australia, if the left suggests amending Australia law to accomodate such charming customs.

OTOH, Stanley Fish might be calling for this in the US any day now.

Yojimbo:

Too bad the Beeb doesn't give as much prominence to what's going on in Darfur as they do to items like that, not to mention anything that puts the Israel, the US or Blair in a bad light.

Kafir NB-
You can see the destroyed historic churches here.

http://www.balkanpeace.org/destruct/index.shtml

http://balkanpeace.org/

Difficult chapter, Rugova apostized from islam to catholicism, in the last times of his life, and some albanians discover their catholic roots very marked in Skandenberg, but kosovars are very muslim, and I am against independence from Yugoslavia.

I just received a secret transmission from Tim Russert that he's gone ahead and selected Hillary Clinton to become President in 2008.

This second Clinton ascendancy is very bad news for non-Believers in the Balkans. Could somebody please pass this critical news on to Dr. Artemije Radosavljevic?

waterdragon52

The BBC likes a silly story as much as anyone else, but to be fair to them I don't really think they give them undue prominence. I didn't even spot that one myself.

They're currently leading with Friday prayer plea for Iraq calm which seems an appropriate lead story. And they even give President Bush the final word on the affair.

Here is the situation. The Balkans Ethnic wars are not over by a long shot. On the one side are the Muslims and their UMMA to back them up. How do you think Serbs got "demonised" in the first place? The Saudis hired a PR firm to put out propaganda and the western "blame the white christian man first" news reporters went right along with it. Only other Orthodox Christians stood by the Serbs. Remember this was well before 9-11 and the concept of a global Jihad. So Serbia has been suffering a lot. But the times have changed! Even in Europe! Add to that, the internet! I think that if fighting broke out again the Kaffir world would be less likely to be fooled again! I say lets the Christian Balkan people loose to do what they started 100 years ago. All the Albanian "turkish house niggers" can go live in Ankara or Mecca.

"Actually most of the Albanians there are not native to Kosovo. Most of them moved there (about 300,000 of them or more) about 2-3 years after the fall of the Soviet Union. This was documented by the Washington Post just before we started bombing the Serbs."

-Posted Above

I will be the first to proclaim my opposition to Kosovar independence, but not on the basis you are mentioning. Why would I listen to the Washington Post? American (and many Americans) papers are notoriously ignorant about history. The truth is Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian and of course, Hellenic peoples, are indigenous to this part of Europe. Albanians are not Turks, they are Illyrian. As such, they are most certainly native Europeans in that part of Europe. I suggest a little research on the Albanians, a nationality that has become of great interest to me in the last few weeks.

To suggest that Albanians are in some way invaders in this area (Kosovo) is ridiculous. Serbs/Slavs are much more recent immigrants to this part of Europe. I am not at all against Slavs, but the truth is the truth. This is as absurd as some relative newcomers to Europe suggesting that Romanians have no rights over parts of its country since the latter are not “indigenous” and are “just left over primitive Latins/Latin speakers who lived in Byzantium” and later migrated north. Really? How come there are pockets of Romanians/Aroumanians/Meglo-Romanians all over South Eastern Europe, from Slovenia to Greece, from Ukraine to Bulgaria? And how come Albanians share so many words with us that no one else does? Those words can be traced to Dacian/Thracian and Illyrian. There are also links with Balto-Slavic.

Romanians, the big brothers of the Balkans, feel some level of kinship with Albanians due to our shared hsitory, but their understanding of themselves has been violently twisted and distorted by a group of people that has devastated the soul of the whole region. Until they shed their religion entirely, and not just in Albania – in all Albanian lands, I will remain highly suspicious. Someday, they might call me be brother, and not the f***ing Turks they now consider to be their brothers. So today, most Romanians feel infinitely more kinship with Italians and their friendly Slavic neighbors the Bulgarians, than they do with the poor lost Albanians, despite shared ancient history.

If you want to say that many more Albanians moved into Kosovo in the last few years, and that such is proactive Jihad, that is another matter entirely. However, we ought not misrepresent the history of the area. Let us be honest about why we don't want Kosovo to be independent: ISLAM, reunification with Albania, the deleterious affect independence would have on ethnic minority independence movements throughout the region and beyond, and Albanians foreign “Orientalism”. As I mentioned a few weeks back, the real issue over EU expansion is not Turkey, but Albania. Turkey will never join, but Albania is far more complicated. Albania I fear will join someday. And to say I have mixed feelings about it is an understatement.

Albanians, shed the religion, and then let’s talk.

Free speech, muslim style. WE did this, guys.
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/nato1.html

NATO Bombs TV Station in Serbia

'Once you kill people because you don't like what they say, you change the rules of war'

For the love of God can we get on the right side of this conflict now?

zhu97~ didn't Clinton encourage that? And didn't he just say that freedom of speech should be limited so muslims are not insulted. Goes hand in hand.

"...General Wesley Clark had decided to bomb Serb television."

Borg

Yup.

The biggest tragedy that befell the Balkans, is the take over of the province of Kosovo by Islamic radicals called KLA freedom fighters assisted by the world wide umma of the Muslims. Kosovo was and has been a part of greater Serbia until very late, when the hordes of Albanians moved from their country to settle down and claim Kosovo as their own. They have destroyed most of the infrastructure and the Serb villages and monasteries. Its a sad state of affairs. We should have been on the side of the Serbs when Islamic jihadists were waging war against the Christian Serbians.
Its not too late to reverse this. Kosovo should remain a part of Serbia and not part of Albania, now that Albanians have infiltrated and it trying the well proven Muslim take over; like they did to all other civilizations. Wake up Europe/USA

I support the Serbs. I don't care if they were all
originally from Poughkeepsie and just got there in
1993, and the Muslims have been living there since
the Cambrian Explosion.

We made a mistake helping mohammadans before, and we
shouldn't do it again!

Still a problem with the threads. Some you can post on, others are cut off.

zhu97: "Still a problem with the threads. Some you can post on, others are cut off."

So I've noticed. Hopefully the hosts will explain to the rest of us what's going on.

zhu97 & Caroline-

Islamicist hackers worldwide have been hitting anti-jihadist sites heavily this week.

I would assume JW/DW is on the top of their denial of service sh*tlist.

American-

I always buy a drink for anyone who says the magic words "Cambrian explosion".

If these were a safer circumstances, I'd be glad to trade email addresses and forward a paypal transfer to your account for buying yourself a gimlet, Foster's lager, or whatever your preferred poison is.

Be sure to read the late, lamented Stephen Jay Gould's classic on this theme: "Wonderful Life", about two of my other favorite words (and a great potential nom de plume) the Burgess Shale.

Islam, meanwhile, is like a child in the "terrible two's", psychotically desperate for attention, and, personally, I'm getting sick of them. From Iraq to Iran, the UAE to Yemen, Pakistan to Gaza to Jakarta to Cairo to Beirut to Damascus to Kabul- a never ending litanty of footstamping uncontrollable "anger".

What hell hell doesn't make Muslims angry?

The only thing I could come up with is:

surrender.

And that isn't in the pipeline, so I guess angry Muslims are all we're going to see until this cult either self-extinguishes, is extinguished, or reforms itself out of its mental diapers.

I only wish we could teleport them all to Mars (a fine desert world!) and let us return to enjoying this glorious Earth without their constant petty nattering murderous infantile intolerant "God"-intoxicated idiocy.

That's my prayer.

Amen.

Not to rain on your party, but I must say the reactions to the Serb bishop's statement betray an enormous ignorance of the history and situation of Kosovo, and rather a lot of nastiness and hatred to go with it. I wish Mr Spencer would teach you some manners, and some respect for the facts.
I generally sympathize with this web site, and coming from the country of Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I know a thing or two about Islamism and its threats. However, this can never be a reason to spout venom and bigotry whenever and wherever people called "Muslims" are concerned. I am glad that some people in the USA and NATO made a better assessment of the situation and saved Kosovo from becoming a second Bosnia by stopping Milosevic (now deservedly on trial in The Hague) and his army (a bunch of murderous gangs, really).
To keep my response short (well, shortish...), I'll just mention some main points in reaction to what some of you have stated.

1. Ethnic Albanians, not Serbs, are the indigenous population of Kosovo, and they have always formed a large majority of the population.
2. Until 1989, when Milosevic came to power, Kosovo had some vaguely autonomous status within the Yugoslav republic of Serbia. Milosevic immediately revoked that status, and subjected the Kosovar Albanians to a kind of repression similar to the way General Franco treated the Basque and Catalan minorities during his dictatorship. To name but one measure: the use of the Albanian language, the mother tongue of Kosovar Albanians, was no longer allowed in Kosovar schools.
3. Kosovar Albanians, like Albanians proper and many Bosnians, are nominally Muslims, because their lands were Islamized under Ottoman rule. The Turks left around 1912. As someone already remarked: the Kosovar Muslims are very moderate -- but even that is an overstatement of the actual situation, because a large part of these people are no practicing Muslims at all. Their connection to Islam is mainly a Muslim style wedding and ditto burial. The hateful language that some of you used regarding these people is really out of proportion. Of course there are Islamist forces outside Kosovo who try to use these people for their own jihadist purposes, and some Kosovars used Islamic rhetoric in their struggle against the Serb oppression, but on the whole the Balkan brand Islam is mostly nominal and completely innocent. Has any of you heard of Islamist activism in the state of Albania? There is no risk whatsoever of shari'a rule being introduced into these regions, although in the heat of the battle people like Izetbegovic may have flirted with the idea.

The Yugoslav wars of 1990-95 were not pretty, and all parties committed horrible crimes. The "Muslim" crimes, however, pale before what the Serbs and Croats did to each other, and to "Muslims". If churches and monasteries in Kosovo were destroyed, that's outrageous, but for some reason you fail to mention that, years earlier, almost each and every mosque in Bosnia (hardly used remnants from Ottoman times) was destroyed or set to fire by Serbian thugs.

Please keep your passions in check. The Bosnian and Kosovar "Muslims" are people like you and me.

OT but thoughts brought up by this thread.

Abraham's wife Sarah was barren. She told him to lie with her Egyptian maid Hagar, and perhaps they could obtain a child by her. So Abraham went to Hagar and she conceived. But Sarah was jealous of her pregnant maid, and when she dealth harshly with her, Hagar fled to the wilderness.

An angel of the Lord came to Hagar and said, "Return to thy mistress and submit theyself under her hands. . . Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethern."

The arabs say they are the descendants of Ishmael; islam is the religion of ishmael.
It is the ideology of conflict and duality.
It is a simple religion and has five commandments.
It is the social and political beliefs that cause trouble . . .
and, as some say, the sixth commandment of jihad.

Across the globe, north, south, east and west, it is jihad, everywhere, fought by criminals, phantom gouls, barbarians who have no identity anymore but islam, have no worth but as slaves of allah, the moon god, the moloch, the baal, thirsting for blood, blood, and more blood as it "slouches toward Bethlem" led by the mad monster called mohammed, deemed by the believers to be the perfect man.

Flying_Dutchman-

Goede avond, kereltje.

Speaking of that shameful period for Europe, the Dutch NATO troops did a helluva job, eh?

Whatever the past crimes of the Milosovic type swine and their fascistic/nationalistic brothers in arms, the current jihad threat trumps past follies.

Survival determines strategy.

We have to oppose the infiltration of jihadists among the more peaceful Muslim populations of Eastern Europe. Whatever they are now, their religious brotherhood, once whipped up by 'young Turks', will over-rule any past passive behavior.

If the Serb leaders and their private armies were wannabe-genocidal s.o.b.s, the trucked-in muh-jihad-din Wahabbists and al-Qaedists were just as bad. And will be a far more serious danger in the future to all of us, while Milosevic is safely on perpetual trial in the Den Haag, and other non-Muslim war criminals like Karadic are being caught in the region.

Their crude aims were petty and old-fashioned and limited to local power games.

The jihadists, like the song in "Cabaret", are singing a different tune:

"The future belongs to me!"

I beg to disagree with their imperial urge.

And am fighting for my freedom. And life.

Dividing our strength is silly.

Sterkte, hoor.

Laat de leeuw niet in zijn hempie staan.

From the poster above "The Bosnian and Kosovar "Muslims" are people like you and me." I have no problem with that statement I enjoyed the balkins and almost every Muslim I met was a non practicing type at least at the extreme level. Here is the but...Jihadists took wives after the war ended and local "muslim" women found themselves in need of husbands. Ex mujahdin are not common but they are there and pose a threat. Young muslim males get the same speaches as all muslims, everything is blamed on the west and the Jews. Do I think the are radicals? Who cares what I think, they have the system in place and as such some will become radicals. True enough the Serbs, Croats and Bosniacks all commited horrible crimes and should be punished for them. The only threat to us currently is the muslims becoming radicals and entering the Jihad. I didn't remember any "Jihad is wrong" posters, I did see a fair share of Anti US signs, some in the muslim areas and some in the Croat areas, no signs in areas controled by Serbs but I did get spit on by some. I thought that took guts as we were wearing full battlerattle and armed. Lovely place and I'm sure it is much better now.

The post by "Flying Dutchman" demonstrates why Europe is in deep trouble. On one hand the Europeans have their Muslim population making outrageous demands and threats and they recongize the problem like our Dutch poster has --someone who is "proud" to be from the same country as Theo Van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali-- and yet at the same time this Dutch poster demands that we recognize the "legitimate rights" of the Muslim Albanians who are all really "moderate" and who would never dream of imposing sharia on the beleagured Christian Serb minority in Kosovo. We mustn't "demonize" them. Nevermind it is these same Muslims, these same "moderates", whom this Dutch poster is so fond of, that are insistent on taking away your freespeech as the Muslim protests against the Muhammad cartoons have proven in Macedonia. Macedonia also has a large Muslim population, many are Albanians. Yes, let's give Muslims another state in Europe. Bosnia wasn't enough. And while we are at it, let's give the Palestinians one as well. Let's keep appeasing the Muslim world and let's build bridges with the "moderates", surely the Muslims will like us then and maybe Europe won't look like Lebanon in another 20 years. Then again, maybe not.

This has always baffled me about the modern European. The don't like the Muslim presence in their country but they are more than willing to help the ummah on the international stage. First it is with the "Palestinians", the worlds most oppressed people, and now with the "Bosnians" and Albanians, those victims of Serbian warcrimes. Yet for some reason these same Europeans cannot mention the Muslim warcrimes without mentioning "Serbs" in the same breath. Their quest for "justice" for the Palestinians is easily explained by their antisemitism but their quest for "justice" for the "Bosnians" and Albanians cannot be anything else but suicide. Unlike some posters on this site, this is not restricted to the Left, most Europeans feel this way. Serbia and Israel has no friends in Europe because the Europeans fail to recongize that it's not the presence of "Islamists" in Europe that is the problem, but a critical mass of Muslims of any stripe. Until they realize that Muslims should not get any political support of any kind then will they be able to reverse their dhimmitude. Until then, those Europeans who think like "Flying Dutchman" take note: you failed to stand up for Israel and Serbia so don't be shocked when these nations and many others that are under the threat of jihad such as Russia fail to stand up for you and call you racists once the Muslims start to riot, rape your women, and terrorize your population. Those who share the mentality of this Dutch poster are cowards and fools and they will get no sympathy from me once the shit starts to hit the fan.

Behold the "rebirth of Islam" in Albania. Are some of you want them in the EU?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.reportages-pictures.com/ALBANIA/R00216%2520islam/images/prevs/p109622%2520screen.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.reportages-pictures.com/ALBANIA/R00216%2520islam/default.htm&h=336&w=500&sz=25&tbnid=-UbKvHSWusb-qM:&tbnh=85&tbnw=127&hl=en&start=8&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dalbania%2Bislam%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

Sorry about grammar issues in above post.

flying dutchman you are a true racist. Not us Islamaphobes here. I can just picture you talking. You are probably one of those guys that automatically thinks that Serbia had problems with Muslims because they are not sophisticated liberal Europeans like you dutch. You are mulicultural and tolerant. So there must be something wrong with those swarthy serbs. Shameful they shouldnt even be considered European. Yet when Islam starts problems in the Netherlands there is no connection. This group of Muslims must be wrong. Because you are different then Serbs.

Kafir Non-believer I am a bit surprised your theory of Romanians being descended from Vlachs and Aromanians is a Hungarian theory to disprove Romanians are indigenous to Romania. The Romanian theory is the dacians adopted Latin and you always lived there. I am not disputing any theory, just find it interesting. And I find it interesting you relate more to Italians than your fellow Balkan friends. You have to remember Roman refered to all Christians in the Eastern Roman Empire. The word Greek stopped being used to denote Greeks. It was associated with pagan people. All Greeks, slavs , vlachs, etc. were romans. Romania is the only country in the region to keep the roman name. In Turkey today Rum still denotes Christian. Even though the Italians of Southern Italy are mostly Greek and Albanina orthodox converts most of Italy is catholic. I thought you would associate with your fellow orthodox. The balkans is not a divisive place like everyone thinks. There are just two groups that caused all the problems. The muslims and the catholic croats who are ashamed of being Slavic and consider themselves of german origin. But with that said they are not barbarians like the muslims. They just wanted their own country and now that they got it there will be no more problems from them.

Without commenting in detail on the history of the Serbs in Kosovo, or noting the passing of Ibrahim Rugova, who was always presented as a "moderate" Albanian in Kosovo but never uttered a word about the destruction, in recent times, of Orthodox churches, or the harrying, and murder, of Serbian villagers, or in noting that Izetbegovic's plan to thoroughl islamize whatever area he controlled was set out long before there was any "in the heat of battle" to explain it away, one can simply offer the following:

In World War II, the United States and Great Britain had to do whatever they could to stop Hitler. To this end, they made commoon cause with, and even gave aid to, a regime that was not exactly to the liking of either country, and certainly not to Winston Churchill or to Franklin Roosevelt: the Soviet Union. That aid, offloaded at Murmansk, was not only in tangible tanks and guns. It was also in diplomatic support, financial support, all other kinds of support. And there was no stopping, during that war, to tell the Soviet regime how badly it behaved, because all that mattered then was to stop Hitler and the Nazis.

The triumph of Islam, or any victory, any where, that will be interpreted by Muslims as a triumph of Islam, should be opposed for that very reason. It could be a case where the Muslim demands are outrageous, as in the Lesser Jihad against Israel which has so successfully been based on manipulation of the phrase "the Palestinian people" (so as to make it seem as merely a nationalist resistance, to disguise the fact that it is and always was, and always will be, a classic Jihad, designed to destroy an Infidel sovereignty, and to replace it with one where Islam will "dominate and is not to be dominated" -- even where the Shari'a will be imposed.

It could also be a case as in Chechnya, where the historical record makes one more sympathetic to the Chechens, who were moved about, and subject to massacres, by Stalin, and who are now being put down with Soviet-style ruthlessness. But now that the Chechen cause has been thoroughly islamized, and its triumph would be a triumph for Islam, even those doubtful about the Russian (Soviet) regime, and aware of what happened to the Chechens under Stalin, must still be opposed to a victory for Chechnya.

And the same goes everywhere where a victory for the Muslim side will inevitably lead to a shrill triumphalism that can only be bad for Infidels, whatever they think, wherever their expressed sympathies lie.

and that is why someone in Holland today, trying to be fair, trying to be more than fair, and stating a case for the Albanians (in this case this will mean the Muslim Albanians, for it is they who are destroying the churches and the villages), is actually working to make Islam stronger in his own country, though the connection may have escaped him.

During the run up to the Iraq war, I was one of those infuriated at Russia, France, Germany et al for batting for Iraq. I still don't like their stands any better, given what they are (and aren't) doing in Iran.

That said, in 1998, the war against Serbia was contrived using NATO, since it was obvious that Russia would veto any attempt at the UN. What was surprising is that the Russians, unlike in 1914, did not choose to intervene militarily on behalf of the Serbs. Given that history, it should have been obvious to anyone that their solidarity with Iraq, Iran and Syria was not something they were going to act upon.

Also, it is hypocritical of the US to demand good behavior from Russia on Chechnya, Serbs on Kosovo, Israel in WB, while itself conducting the war on terror. As Beslan showed, the Russians have a genuine terrorist problem - this isn't merely like the Russian Germans who were deported to Uzbegistan. As these events have shown, not identifying Islam as the threat results in fissures and fractures in what ought to be an infidel alliance, but isn't.

Everyone needs to wake up here - Dubya, Pootie-poot, Olmert, Chirac, Merkel, et al

The tragedy of the Serbs in the Balkans is the same as the tragedy of the African Christians, the Buddhists in Thailand.
the Hindus,Sikhs and Buddhists in India, the Russians in Chechnya and of the jews in the arab/islamic world.
While our leaders play for petty points from the moslem electorate the threat increases.

In the USA you have the ports issue with dubaim surely Mr President should say no for no other reason the islamic world needs to be denied another
source of funding for jihad.
"We" are quite litrally paying them to destroy and conquer us.
Russia will play the iran card in its stand off with the west. Why not just give the Russians a discreet nod and all assistance to deal with the chechens
as they see fit in exchange for support from them against iran.

Why supply F 16's and other military kit to pakistan when you could form a grand alliance with democratic India, even though this is happening anyway
with billions of $$$ deals being signed with India the point needs to be made to pakistan.

The non moslem world needs to band together.
It makes no difference if you are Christain, Hindu,Sikh, Buddhist or whatever as long as you are not moslem then you are an ally.

Flying Dutchman posted: The Bosnian and Kosovar "Muslims" are people like you and me.

In the biological sense yes, but most certainly not in the cultural. In fact, muslims the world over will be outraged that they are the same as kaffirs.

There is a huge difference between muslims and non-muslims. V.S.Naipaul pointed this out some two decades ago.

DPP111 writes, "There is a huge difference between muslims and non-muslims. V.S.Naipaul pointed this out some two decades ago."

I know, I read _Among the Believers_ when it came out, and I knew it before that.

But no one seems to respond to my point, which is that Bosnians and Kosovars are mostly Muslims in name only. (And I can add that the small minority of practicing Muslims have no connection to political Islam.) Conversion to Islam under Ottoman rule was more or less imposed on the people, and the Islamic spirit wore off quickly after the Turks had gone, nearly a hundred years ago.

I visited Kosovo (and Bosnia) twice, in 1972 and 1979, and even then I saw no one praying but a few old men. Most of the Turkish style mosques just stood empty. A large part of the Bosnian mosques were destroyed by the Serbs long before the fights in Kosovo started. It would be silly to accuse the Serbs of a Christian crusade, though. It is just as silly to accuse the Kosovars (or the Bosnian "Muslims") of fighting a jihad.

Under Tito's rule, "Muslim" was not a religious category, but an ethnic one, like "Serb" or "Croat". A Bosnian "Muslim" is someone who is descended from Serbs who under Ottoman rule converted to Islam. Most of these people have no religious affiliation, they are "Muslims" the way a secular or atheist Jew is still a Jew.

Under Milosevic, the Albanian Kosovars were oppressed by the Serbs, not the other way around. This was not about religion: Milosevic certainly isn't a devout Christian, and most Kosovars are not observing Muslims. (Just as most Serbs are non-observing "Christians" or atheists.) Milosevic oppressed the Kosovars the way the Soviet Union oppressed the Baltic peoples -- no religion involved.

The Kosovo problem is an ethnic problem, a problem of two peoples, not a religious problem. So we shouldn't invoke a virtually non-existing Kosovar Islamism to defend Serb domination over the ethnic Albanians. It would be best to join Kosovo with Albania, because it is too small to stand on its own feet as an independent republic.

I realize all this will fall on deaf ears. The Kosovars' forefathers were Muslims, so they must be Muslims themselves, and because they are Muslims they are jihadists. By the same reasoning I must be a Christian crusader in the eyes of a jihad warrior, although even my grandparents never went to church.

I find all of this discussion of Albanian Muslims interesting, as the growth of the Muslim population in the area of New York City where I live began with Albanians. They brought physical improvements to the area they settled in, and seemed fairly secular, except that the local mosque seemed well attended.

However, imagine my unease to spot a fully-covered, burkha'd woman on our local streets last summer. Not to mention the three men I saw near the mosque who, literally, looked like they'd just transported themselves from Pakistan or Afghanistan. Heavy beards, shalwar kameezes, sandals, and all. Not one single item with a Westernized touch, as one would mostly see with recent immigrants (such as sneakers).

And then the notices in the local paper about guest imans, come to lecture in local mosques, from various locations across the globe, caught my eye.

I fear that the local Albania Muslims will not remain so "secular", after all.

Disquieting, to say the least.

The Palestine problem is an ethnic problem, a problem of two peoples, not a religious problem. So we shouldn't invoke a virtually non-existing Palestinian Islamism to defend Israeli domination over the ethnic Palestinians. It would be best to join the Gaza Strip with the West Bank, because it is too small to stand on its own feet as an independent republic.

I realize all this will fall on deaf ears. The Palestinian's forefathers were Muslims, so they must be Muslims themselves, and because they are Muslims they are jihadists. By the same reasoning I must be a Christian crusader in the eyes of a jihad warrior, although even my grandparents never went to church.
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What I wrote above was what the Europeans were saying during the PLO's heyday and before the rise of Hamas during the 1970's. Even the New Left was insisting that the Palestinians were mostly secular. They could have never envisioned Hamas's rise to absolute power 35 years later. It's nice to see that this same argumentation and shortsightedness is being applied to Kosovar Muslims. Again, our Dutch friend who is well versed in the threat of "Islamism" isn't very bright. The European disease is alive and well.

I am sorry to say the "Flying Dutchman" is looking at the world with blinkers. No wonder Holland is in such a mess with all the Muslim radicals. Its people such as this that destroyed the beautiful tolerant culture that was Holland. Now there is so much tension and problems in all the cities of Holland. I think the this individual is a closet Islamist. How many times must one say there are no species called moderate Muslims, they are either Muslims or not Muslims there is no half way when describing Muslims. Its like saying these cobras do not sting - they are moderates. One only needs some thing as stupid as some silly cartoons to see how the moderates become Islamists - The Flying Dutchman needs his head examined. There seems to be a screw loose.

When it came to Bosnia or Croatia even though there were large Serb minorities there they were not aloud to seperate and Join other serbs and make one country. WE had to follow guidelines to ensure that each country was mulicultural. Because culture is apparently meaningless, but some arbitrary borders drawn by tito were the work of god. So the serbs were forced to live with people they didnt want too. Self determination is a foolish nationalistic feeling of a barbaric european past. This is the new mulicultural europe. Then came kosovo part of serbia. Yes a lot of the people there were albanina immigrants but culture didnt matter right? wrong self determination for kosovars is the only way to go. So doesnt anyone see the hypocricy, where were the serbs to live? They cant live in other republics because it belongs to other people. and they cant live in their own because there are other people there. Also the Serbs allowed albanina universities and some autonomy. Autonomy was stripped once they wanted to seperate. Now in multicultural kosovo, only muslims exist. Apparently the struggle has nothing to do with Islam yet only churches are getting torched. Why? There are even Christian albanians do any of them exist anymore. NO. Not in Kosovo. In Kosovo we heard the attacks on Serbs were out of revenge. yeah what about the Gypsies what revenge are they owed. The bottom line is Kosovo was always part of serbia. The albanians were allowed to immigrate in large numbers to keep the serb percentage in Yugoslavia down. Tito being the ultimate cultural marxist didnt want one strong ethnic group dominating in Yugoslavia, he felt it was better ideology kept people together not culture. Sounds a lot like the clowns that run our media and universities today. Apparently too many Serbs survived the death camps in WWII so he had to bring in more albanians. And up until the NATO bombings Kosovo albanians had a better standard of living in Kosovo than in Albania.

PissedoffCanadian,

If I gave you the idea that I was anti-Serb, let me reassure you that that is not the case. My older sister married a Serb and I can say they are a fine people. Serbs will take their rightful place in Europe, and they should. I do not support Albania's accession to the EU. I am not ruling it out, but I am tilted against it.

With respect to affiliation, you surely cannot deny the power of language. There is a reason why mainly only France and Italy supported Romania's NATO bid in 1997. There is a reason why Italian investors poured into Romania during the long period when others shied away; when it was once called the mammoth Albania to the north. There is a reason why French cars are made there, and not Swedish ones.

hi kafir thanks for you response. NO i didnt think you were anti serb. Actually i am not serb myself just a supporter. Actually i accused the dutch guy of being anti balkan period.

I sort of went off topic about the origin of romanians. I always wanted to know more about this. its just interesting there are different theories. I dont know which one is correct myself. some people think they are daciand descendants who are believed to be thracian not illyrian. Some people think they are illyrian origin and became latinized. Some people think the albanians are of Illyrian descent but there is problems with this theory too. NO one knows for sure what these ancient languages were like.

A better and more comprehensive article here at [url=http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_news&Number=294453994&Forum=All_Forums&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=294453986#Post294453994]Chronicles[/url]
A Bishop's Lonely Struggle.

flying dutchmen

i think your idea that kosovo should join with albania is wrong kosovo is serb land since you like the albanian terrorist so much why dont you give up part of the netherlands to be albanian?

and if albanians are moderate muslims like you say they are why do they burn churches in kosovo why do they kill serbs? milosevic should not be in the hague he was defending his country from KLA terrorist supported by clinton if anyone should be in the hague it should be clinton and the KLA and milosevic should be given a medal.

and the albanians are not indigenous population of Kosovo they are just leftover turks from when the ottoman empire invaded the balkanns they look turkish and they have turkish names they should be deported to turkey in my apinion no way does kosovo belong to those dogs