Paris: Gang suspected of killing Jew nabbed

What is the point of posting such a thing without evidence of Anti-Semitism, except for inciting hatred
against Muslims? How many North Africans have been murdered in France? Do we then incite hate against Christians? These are cheap propaganda tactics of a
mob mentality.

For a racist, every crime commited by a black person is just further proof for what he believes about them being inferior. He doesnt ask for evidence and he doesnt need to ask questions. His own imagined supeiority is for him proof enough. Dont become like that racist.

The point, as I read it, is to list one more example of the special treatment mainstream media gives Islam and Muslims when reporting on Muslim's violence and hatred toward non-Muslims.

Karimguy, why don't you take your filthy delusions to another board. You are the only racist here.

I think "Halimi was found on Monday tied to a tree, naked and wounded, with burns covering all parts of his body. He died on the way to the hospital." is a pretty good evidence of Muslim's hatred for all things non-Muslim.

Why, do you want the Media to claim that the crime was committed by Muslims before they were even caught? Anyway, what role does the religion of the criminal or the victim play? Why are we narrowing ourselves so much? Would you have seen a post here if the victim was North African and the guilty Jewish?

Maybe the reciting of the Koran was the proof Karimguy?

How about you discuss that, as well as telling them to go to the synagogue to get the rasom money?

Sorry, but your suggestion that we investigate the premise that this might not be religiously based isn't going to get anyone to look the otherway...

Moose

"Do we then incite hate against Christians? "

Ha! You have got to be shi**ing me, Mr. Karimguy. You must be one of those rare creatures: a muslim comedian!!!!Ha, ha, ha, ha

Hey William, for someone who proudly carries the name
of the religious movement that killed thousandths of Jewish men, women and children your words are a little to big.

I have been following this story for a few days now.

Thanks for posting it.

Here is another sourece:

http://www.ejpress.org/digest/news/france/

The fact that they posted three separate stories on this event shows how concerned the French Jewish community is.

There is no doubt in my mind that Jew hatred was part of their motivation.

Did I just hear ransom money? Maybe that could be the motive? The parents THOUGHT they heard Koran verses.
The police think otherwise.Whom should we believe? I
go for the police. All I am saying is that lets wait for the evidence.

Actually, it isn't just the reporting that is at fault here. The police say "no evidence of anti-semitism," while at the same time explaining to the family that the kidnappers were quoting the Qur'an, and then turning right back around and stating officially "we don't know what the motives are."

This, at least to me, is evidence that the police are being muzzled as to what they say to the press and the public.

OT But an interesting article outlining the mechanism of the Dawa and why we can expect to see more events like the one for this thread.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia219.xml

Also we should encourage karimguy to stick around if he leaves he will only carry on under the yolk of his jihadist brainwashing. Lets take each one as they come and lay out some objective fact based truths for them. Somewhere in there he still has some functioning neurons I am sure.

13 people, animals really, attacked a bound 23 year old. I bet they felt themselves to be brave soldiers of allah. If these clowns ever form a real army we should worry. I'm starting to understand why they get their butts handed to them every time they try to fight a battle with the US Military. allah has no soldiers’ just criminals trying to compensate for small peckers.

Even if those youth were quoting Koran, so what? Does that neccesary connect to the crime? Second, there is not a single verse in the Koran telling Muslims to kill Jews. So what should they quote?

maybe it wasnt a muslim-jewish hate crime.
maybe the jewish family had a 6 year old daughter they wanted,and they said "no you pervert".or is that just for special muslim's,like muhammad?

Cant we just agree on something, lets have a discussion without insult,threat or slander?
Lets try that.

sorry didnt figure that was an insult.Oh,ya.sorry i forgot.The truth hurts.

read it

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?fr=ybr_sbc&p=how+old+was+aisha&u=www.exmuslim.com/com/evidence.htm&w=old+aisha&d=GDDDWm1aMSjO&icp=1&.intl=us

“Cant we just agree on something, lets have a discussion without insult,threat or slander?
Lets try that.”

Glad too. Let us discuss how so many of us automatically assume muslims did the crime. Is it because we are all misguided and uniformed islamiaphobics or because the odds are almost 100% we are right? Of course we could have simply read into the clues, a Jewish victim, a large mob, verses from the koran, a demand for ransom. Hmmm I think that about covers it for me. They are quilty.

I don't read any threats made to you karimguy.

My Name IS Tonya Greipenweiner. WTF? I THINK LIEK IM WAY MORE QUALIFEID THAN AL U RACIST ZIONAZIS B/C I HAEV A D3GRE IN MIDLE 3ASTARN HYSTRIONIcS1!!1!!1 LOL AND LIEK SO WUT?!!!?! OMG WTF IF THEY QUOTED DA QURAN????? OMG WTF LOL TAHT DOASNT LIEK MEAN ANYTHNG!11!!!1 OMG WTF LOL LIEK THOS3 STUPID SHARMOUTAHS IN INDONASIA WHO WERA ASKNG FOR IT DUH LIEK EV3RYON3 KNOWS AND THAY WER3 IN TEH WRONG PLAEC IN DA WRONG TIEM SO OF COURS3 TH3Y R GONG 2 B D3CAPITAETD11111 OMG LOL KARIM IS RIGHT AND IT IS NO FARE FOR U 2 VICTIMIEZ HIM FOR LIEK T3LNG TRUTH 2 POWAR11!11 OMG G3T OVAR IT RACIST CRUSAEDRS1!!!111 OMG

anybody have an idea what she just said?

Of course we could have simply read into the clues, a Jewish victim, a large mob, verses from the koran, a demand for ransom. Hmmm I think that about covers it for me. They are quilty.

Wow Sherlock. Now get all your pleasant peace loving friends, forcibly take those muslims out of prison and make a barbecue. Can you show me that your comments are arent exactly racist and prejiduced?

Girl,,,guy,,,what ever you are,,,you need spell checker. My 6 yr old granddaughter spells better than you.

looks like the islamo nazis are trying to take over.

yes,they are gunna try,

but it will never happin

karim-

Better re-read that worn old Koran you got.

Killing Jews, those "distorters of Allah's message" and "rebuffers of Mohammad's attempt to convert them" to the 'true faith', has been the standard operating procedure within Imperialistic Islam since about 610 A.D. -when the Hebrews first pissed off the nascent Umma with their refusal to take Mohammad seriously.

Let's see, what Qu'ran quotes do you prefer?

Sura 9:29-30, perhaps?

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah.. the Jews...and the Christians... Allah's curse be upon them!"

Or maybe 9:5?

"Then slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever you find them..."

Or the delightful 9:14?:

"Fight the infidels: Allah will punish them by your hands..."

So much venom, so little space.

And spare me the counter quotes from the Old Testament, I'm an agnostic. And the Christians (and Jews, by default) surrendered to secular rule several centuries ago, finally.

We're not going backward into the same kind of pointless theocratic misery that these "Christians" brought upon humanity when they held political and military power.

Islam is the same old sh*t, only with modern weaponry. Smallpox for Allah! has such a charming ring to it, no?

So Imperialistic Islam must be opposed until they wither become civilized enough to restrain their own maniacs, or are forcibly sequestered in Mecca, there to ponder their delusions and repent for their tedious regurgitation of cosmic arrogance.

A dangerous, dogmatic arrogance that we got goddamned sick and tired of, before the 19th century ever dawned, here in the West.

A holy man with no sense of humor is a devil.

Time to confiscate their pitchforks.

"Halami was found tied to a tree, naked & wounded, with burns covering all parts of his body."

Hmm, let me see...who likes to torture, burn, slice and dice, divest of clothing, etc. in our stratosphere. Let me think...

http://www.serbianna.com/features/krajina/012.shtml

"How many North Africans have been murdered in France?" I give up. How many?

How many Sudanese Christians have been murdered by Muslims who won't take no for an answer?

karminguy:

You are right. Just the other day a mob of jews in France kidnapped a muslim for ransom, tortured him while chanting the Old Testament and them tied the msulim to a tree to let him die. But their motivation for this crime was not the fact that they hated muslims, but that they were out of work and looking to make a social statement.

It is, as you say, a familiar pattern. And it is not only applied to vile anti-Semitic attacks on Jews and the desecration of jewsih cemeteries.

The riots in France were carried out, don't you know, by "youths":

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/11/08/do0802.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/11/08/ixop.html

Muslims clashing with blacks in Birmingham were concealed by the Guardian (and others) under the label "Asians":

http://www.guardian.co.uk/race/story/0,11374,1653120,00.html

How can a society understand what is going on or discuss what should be done, when the press is dishonestly concealing facts from its readers?

I don't think this is unique to Europe. You can find similar occurrances in Australia, Canada, and the US.

All across the Western world great swathes of the press, either because they are cowed or because they are just plain dishonest, will not simply print the truth. They go out of their way to conceal or twist any items of news that calls their ideology into question.

The Spectator recently suggested that Nietzsche had an interesting comment on the psychology of the morality of the left-liberal establishment:

"He who examines the conscience of the present-day European will have to extract from a thousand moral recesses and hiding-places always the same imperative, the imperative of herd timidity: ‘we wish that there will one day no longer be anything to fear!’ One day – everywhere in Europe, the way and will to that day is called ‘progress’."

http://www.spectator.co.uk/blog/index.thtml#1007

Nietzsche was an odd man, and perhaps only a philosopher in a very attenuated sense. But he was an acute psychologist and sociologist and I think he probably did skewer his target here. Under it all there are layers and layers of fear - not only fear of the islamists; fear of confronting the falsity, the nullity, of one's own views; fear of facing up to the situation they have prepared for their fellow citizens through their own ignorance of the consequences of the policies they have pursued.

I hope Ilan Halimi's poor family can eventually find some peace of mind. Imagine having to live with the knowledge that a loved one had been treated in that way.

“Wow Sherlock”. Remind me again about not insulting anyone? Actually, I am pleased you used a western detective. I used deductive reasoning to arrive at the conclusion that muslims committed the crime.

“Now get all your pleasant peace loving friends, forcibly take those muslims out of prison and make a barbecue. Can you show me that your comments are arent exactly racist and prejiduced? “

As far as breaking anyone out of prison, they have not been tried, found quilty or put in prison (yet). I think whoever did this should rot and I’m not about to help them escape. The BBQ idea had merit, I eat pork every Friday, is that prejudice? Darn, now I am all embarrassed and because I insulted a muslim I guess you will sign off and go burn something? As for myself I really truly wanted to discuss why we on the list could be so sure that muslims committed this crime. On the odd chance that we are wrong that doesn’t explain the 100s of thousands of idiot’s destroying property all over the world for cartoons they didn’t even see. I can honestly tell you if Christian’s committed theses types of acts, I would be embarrassed to associate with them. Maybe that last statement was prejudice, I humbly apologize to Christians everywhere.

To the Muslim-in-denial,

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1712961,00.html

"Criminals who tortured and killed a young hostage, keeping him naked and hooded and burning him repeatedly before throwing him from a train, were inspired by images from Iraq, according to a French prosecutor. Jean-Claude Martin, a senior government lawyer, said that the kidnappers, who kept their victim imprisoned for three weeks, were ‘repeating things they had seen practised elsewhere’.

Police have distributed a picture of Youssef Fofana, 26, who is the presumed head of the gang. Last week, a young woman, suspected of acting as ‘the lure’ in the murder, gave herself up. Raids then resulted in the arrest of 15 other suspects, aged between 17 and 32, in a poor suburb of Bagneux, near Paris.

The 23-year-old victim is thought to have been starved and tortured while negotiations with his family for a ransom continued. According to a police source, the violence was ‘gratuitous, extreme, spontaneous and without any limits or boundaries’.

The gang was composed of jobless youths from the suburbs around Paris which erupted in violent riots last autumn. They are believed to have made several previous attempts at kidnapping. According to the Liberation newspaper, the gang was inspired by a film which had itself been inspired by a press report."

from LGF

Go practice your taqqiya elsewhere, boy. Infidels are educating themselves about Islam. Be afraid.

Sorry about the post above. I was simply answering Karimguy in 12-year old's language, which I think is standard for your average leftist academe professional protestor type.

An amusing comment on the press:

"... perhaps it would just be easier to change the term 'free press' to the 'Roses of the Prophet Muhammed press.'"

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn19.html

Wow. So I have been reading this site for a bit now without commenting, but, it's time.

Karimguy and the script kiddie with the thing for all caps and inserting numbers where letters clearly belong -- you are missing the point. And I suspect that is because you want to miss it.

The first big objection was that (once again) it's racist to say that it was Muslims that committed a crime. No. If Muslims commit a crime to say that Muslims commited a crime is not racist. It is simply factual reporting. The vast, vast majority of the Arabic speaking world is Islamic. So, if they could recite the Koran (which the Jewish family didn't understand so it must have been in another language), that is a pretty good indication that the caller was speaking Arabic. If someone speaking Arabic is reciting the Koran, it's not really going out on a limb to guess that they are Islamic.

The larger, and sadder, point, that I want to make is that I actually personally know a number of Muslims who are kind, caring, family oriented people. I know that they do not condone the kind of behavior that has been in the press for the last several weeks since the cartoon fiasco. Islam has been hijacked by extreme personalities who don't understand the basic concepts of love and kindness, so how could they ever hope to understand God. The results of extreme actions? Life becomes increasingly difficult for the Muslims who actually are peaceful and wonderful people. Many people stop trusting them, and that is sad.

Sad as it may be though, I find myself increasingly convinced that the extreme viewpoint is a larger percentage of Islam than I used to think it was. I increasingly believe that there is no alternative to a major clash between civilizations. And that sickens me because I still recognize how many people are not out to destroy the west or place them into a subjegated role. But as long as Muslims allow violent individuals to claim to speak for their religion, there will be fewer and fewer voices of restraint in the Western World.

And please, don't kid yourself. The combined strength of the West could utterly destroy the Islamic world in a heartbeat if all restraint were lifted.

I will not claim that it is fair or right. But it is the reality of the situation that we have the technology. If the people of the Western World feel threatened enough....

So the fanatics who keep parading pictures showing the blag flag over the White House or slogans like "God Bless Hitler", the fanatics who kill Christians in churhes that had nothing at all to do with the cartoons, the fanatics who offer bounties for assassinations, well -- they are doing what the western leaders have not been able to do.

You DO realize that our leaders pegged you for annihilation several years ago right? Our leaders looked things over and decided it would, in fact, come to this. It is the civilians of the Western World who said to them "No, you are wrong". We wrote editorials. We held protests for peace. We have restrained them -- not entirely, but never doubt that in an elected society, such dissension regarding these decisions had a huge impact.

Well, the fanatics are turning us. We go to bed shocked by what we have seen that day. Our hearts hurt for the destruction that is coming. But, one by one, the fanatics have done what our own leaders could not. They are showing us that there is no other way.

And the clock is ticking on their opportunities to back track.

Thank you, igor.

karimguy? Your turn. While you're at it, also please explain the unislamic nature of the signs with "God Bless Hitler" carried by disguised (?)cartoon protestors in Islamabad (see a couple of threads down, here at Jihadwatch.) Thanks for your help and your deep insights.

The gang was composed of jobless youths from the suburbs around Paris which erupted in violent riots last autumn. They are believed to have made several previous attempts at kidnapping. According to the Liberation newspaper, the gang was inspired by a film which had itself been inspired by a press report.

Doesnt seem like Islamic motives to me, but stupid youth without perspective and low social economic background committing a horrible crime. Now dont start pretending it doesnt happen in your country.
I remember the recent brutal killing of homeless
by heartless youngsters. Also, do you care about the
thousandths of Muslims youth killed and tortured by Israeli Jews? Now, there is a compelling case.

Western Police and authorities have been covering up Jihad-hate inspired killings, rapes, and arsons for many years. Over the decade, I read stories about Muslim apostates, evangelists to Muslims, Jews, Christians from Muslim countries, and random Westerners suffering from deadly hate violence at the hands of Muslims. It seems that the Police is more interested in shielding the Muslim community from an imaginary, never yet seen backlash, despite the countless and serious provocations, than in solving the crimes and bringing the criminals to justice.

Police officers that idly standby while innocent defenseless people are attacked, property destroyed and justice denied do not deserve to be called law enforcement personal, unless the law which they are enforcing is the Shar’ia or the “sacred ignorance of the Bedouins”, called Islam.

The fact that Western people continue, and even more so, elect the type of politicians that condone and by their inactions encourage such behavior is indeed incredible. Many of the people of Western countries are some of the most self-deluded, ignominious, self-loathing, Ostrich-headed cowardly baboons for allowing such disgrace to fall upon them. I can not say more!

karimguy: Would you have seen a post here if the victim was North African and the guilty Jewish?

I believe you would. Problem is you won't hear of a gang of Jews taking a North African, tieing him to a tree and burning his body until he dies. Cults always blame their victims and demand respect. Their followers always justify the atrocities and blame it on 'oppression.' A tired road traveled by many.

Karimguy wrote: "All I am saying is that let's wait for the evidence."

Karim, what gang routinely kidnaps for money like this? Was it a) Rastifarians? b)Lycee kids gone wild? c) the Russian mafia acting from abroad? or d) someone from the same group that torched 20,000 cars recently and has been involved in the ramp up of thousands of fires and defacement of Jewish cemetaries, synagogues and churches in the last six months? Why would any one torture their meal ticket unless they had a religious/political motive?

Karimguy,

Up for a little survey? You could be a 1-person focus group for some questions suggested for the next poll of Muslims in Europe or the US (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010299.php#comments):

Do you believe a Muslim has the right to leave Islam without any threat or punishment?

Should a Muslim owe his loyalty to the nation-state, and to his fellow citizens, even if that nation-state is at war with an Islamic movement or country?

Should a Muslim insist that non-Muslims learn about Islam only from what Muslims themselves choose to reveal or tell them, or should they be permitted to study the texts, and arrive at their own conclusions?

Should the treatment of non-Muslims under Muslim rule form an important part of any study of the history of Islamic civilization?

Should Muhammad as a figure be beyond criticism?

Should Islam be studied, as all other religions or belief-systems have been, as having developed within history? Should the early Qur'an be subject to the same kind of study as the Bible and Hebrew scriptures have been subject to, or is there to be a special rule exempting the Qur'an and the Qur'an alone?

Do you believe women are men's equals?

Do you believe homosexuals should be killed or otherwise punished?

Do you believe Taqiyya should be employed whenever answering questions from non-Muslims?

Also, do you care about the
thousandths of Muslims youth killed and tortured by Israeli Jews? ~karimguy

Thousandths? We're into Fractions now? I suppose several thousand paper cuts would get us One muslim victim...

still waiting for an answer,karma

karimguy? Your turn. While you're at it, also please explain the unislamic nature of the signs with "God Bless Hitler" carried by disguised (?)cartoon protestors in Islamabad (see a couple of threads down, here at Jihadwatch.) Thanks for your help and your deep insights.

anybody have an idea what she just said? - posted by Patriot

With thoughts of the old lady talking "jive" in Airplane, "Oh, Stewardess, I speak '1337'."
1337 is a numericized version of "Leet," short for "elite":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet

Oh, stewardess, 5#1n0L1173 5p34k5 1337! (Shinoliite speaks Leet!)

Not the usual medium for discourse on serious ideological subjects. In fact, I bet that's one "language" Hugh doesn't give a "r47'5 @55" about. :)

Why dont you take a look at this.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/terrorists/dr_robert_goldstein/2.html

"Thousandths? We're into Fractions now? I suppose several thousand paper cuts would get us One muslim victim..."

Well, according to Amnesty International about 4000 Palestinians have been killed till now, 900 of them minors. Most of the people killed were non combatants, suicide bombers and lynch victims not included in their survey.

Karim, you're sidestepping the questionairre.

OT ...

Thus just in at the BBC:

"Nine foreign oil workers have been seized by armed militants from a barge in Nigeria's Niger Delta."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4726680.stm

Ah! Militants?

Anyone know? Is this another example of Al-BBC being economical with the truth, or are there non-Islamic militants of some sort busy kidnapping people in Nigeria right now?

"karimguy? Your turn. While you're at it, also please explain the unislamic nature of the signs with "God Bless Hitler" carried by disguised (?)cartoon protestors in Islamabad (see a couple of threads down, here at Jihadwatch.) Thanks for your help and your deep insights."

I dont need to explain anything, the world is full of nutcases. But if you bother to look you will find many Muslims and Arabs against such verbal cruelty. For Example Lebanese Author Elias Khoury and Palestian poet Mahmoud Darwish and many others signed
a petition to stop a Holocaust denial conference in Lebanon.Why not report on that?

Ahhh, you mean the suicide bombers, rock throwers and various shooters that the Israelies were defending against. Not to mention the human shields around the various mafioso leadership the palestinians keep putting into power.

How about all those people in Jenin? Oh wait... that was Faked. That kid that got shot in the stomach, another setup...

Amnesty International. The people who Ignore all the people dying at the hands of your friends, in the Sudan... not to mention the ongoing slave-trade by muslims...

In case the muslim poster here has any doubt. The gang leader was called Yousef Fofana and the photo of this guy can be seen here.

http://www.france-echos.com/actualite.php?cle=8454

There were close to 2000 people attending his funeral on Friday. No one representing the government turned up. Officially, despite the torture (rather unusual for a kidnapping for ransom), this is not considered an anti semetic crime even though that the parents were insulted with verses from the Koran.

This news, is not received much more mainstream coverage than the Armanious affair in New Jersey last year.

It appears this gang has done this before and the victims got away, therefore there may have been a positive id. Even if there were wasn't identified, had the public been informed that an african arab gang was kidnapping mainly Jews (who are a mere 1% of the national population), this young man may still be alive today.

Toleranceofappeasement...my point in writing the way I did...thanks to the AOLizer translator... was to show you the childish argument Karimguy was making. Always diverting attention from the truth and accusing everyone else of being racist. As for the muslims of which you speak so highly, I know such muslims, too, until you mention Jews. Then all the bathwater and the baby go out the window together. It is no longer a case of the fringe hijacking a peaceful religion. Islam itself causes this behaviour. How can it be just a fringe, when all the official textbooks, in addition to the Koran, the Hadith, and the newspapers are saying the same vile jew hating things? We have to dispense with this nonsense. We have to finally have the balls to say, Islam is evil. Its edicts are evil. Its God is evil. Its prophet (shame be upon him) is evil. Thanks to the internet we can now search their hatesoaked scriptures, their lying media, we can watch their sermons. There is no more saying we didn't know.

Karimguy, follower of the scared ignorance of the Bedouins. The ideology that was born in the Desert, yet its war flag is green; that call itself mercy and tolerance, yet it is the antitheses of that; it calls the light and freedom of the civilization that precede it Jaahalyi, ignorance and backwardness.

Truth is really at a premium in your culture. Isn’t it mate!

No, I am not. The Jewish Defense Leaque, founded by Rabbi Kahane, is an official terrorist orginization
in the United States. In France at the beginning of the Intifadah many of its members would attack strangers in the street and stab for looking North African.

Now, onto the topic at hand:

Criminal acts are synonymous with sin under Sharia, which prescribes penalties for sins, like stoning, execution, and amputation. Surely, then, reciting Koranic verses during your run-of-the-mill crime, then, would be blasphemy as well.

The loophole is jihad, and anything done in its name, since the ends are considered to justify the means. Add to that the numerous verses (the ape/pig deal) and hadiths that call for the killing of Jews, and you've got your motive.

Added to that is the fact that this was not a petty crime like stealing his wallet, but clearly a lynching.

Whatever way the media spins the crime, I'm just glad the perps were caught, and hope they're prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Jauhara,

Got ya! Sorry for lumping you in with Karimguy. I missed the irony and sarcasm. Maybe I need another cup of coffee.

;)

"Ahhh, you mean the suicide bombers, rock throwers and various shooters that the Israelies were defending against. Not to mention the human shields around the various mafioso leadership the palestinians keep putting into power."

Gary, just shut up please. I think what Amnesty and Human rights watch have to say ways, more then what an uneducated ignoramus like you thinks is the truth.
Maybe the Lawyer of these murderers will bring the arguement that Ilan Halimi was pelting them with rocks and this was reason enough to kill him. Isnt this what you think?

karimguy,

You wrote: "there is not a single verse in the Koran telling Muslims to kill Jews."

The following are taken from the Koran:

Christians and Jews who fail to convert to Islam: 9:29: “Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by his messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay tribute readily, being brought low...”

Jews will face Allah’s wrath because they made friendships with those who disbelieve (5:80).

They must convert to Islam only, or else be doomed (2:62-65, 3:85). Note that 3:85 refers explicitly to the Islamic religion as the “Surrender.”

Jews are wrong-doers who will face a painful doom unless they believe in Allah (4:160-161).

Mohammad (Allah) says Jews look ugly and they are foolish (62:5). Jews are greedy (2:91), and are evil-livers (5:59).

8:55. “Lo! The worst of beasts in Allah’s sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.”

9:123. “O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).”

The worst possible sin is disbelief in or denial of Allah (10:17, 11:18-19, 18:15, 18:57, 29:68, 32:22, 39:32, 61:7). Disbelief or turning away from Allah is a persecution worse than warfare (2:217) or slaughter (2:191)

The Koran says that Muslims must do the following against non-Muslims/disbelievers:

fight/
oppose/
shun/
strive against/
regard as the enemy/
never help/
never befriend/
sever family ties with/
never compromise with/
never obey/
never forgive/
chastise/
curse/
be ruthless toward/
be stern toward/
etc.

3:118; 3:28, 3:56; 3:87-88, 4:50, 4:63, 4:101, 4:139-140, 4:144, 5:54, 5:57, 8:65, 9:14, 9:23, 9:29, 9:73-74, 9:123, 25:52, 28:86, 31:7, 33:48, 45:7-8, 48:28-29, 53:29, 58:5, *58:22, 60:1, 60:4, 60:10, 60:13, 63:6, 66:9, 68:8-9, 76:24, 84:24.

And this is only a presentation of part of the venom and vilification in the Koran against non-Muslims including Jews. There is much, much more.

With this treasure trove of hatred against non-Muslims including Jews, it would be a small step for Muslims to be inspired by the Koran to lynch and murder Jews (as well as Christians, as Muslims have done in Africa, Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines; and also pagans, as they have done in SE Asia and in parts of Africa). In fact, it seems that logically they would be good, authentic Muslims to do so.

Beyond the Koran, there are numerous Hadiths that are equally venomous, if not even more so (if that's conceivable), e.g. -- "...the prophet said: “The hour (of the Day of Judgement) will not begin until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. A Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say ‘Oh Muslim, O slave of Allah! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’... -- Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6985.

Karim~ Not shutting up. Funny you didn't disagree with my assesment, and NOPE! Not ignorant. Just not much interested in a person who can't even see over 150 verses in the koran about killing, enslaving and subduing infidels and Jews.

The loophole is jihad, and anything done in its name, since the ends are considered to justify the means. Add to that the numerous verses (the ape/pig deal) and hadiths that call for the killing of Jews, and you've got your motive

Please I ask you Shinoolite bring me a verse in the Koran that orders Muslims to kill Jews? If that is so
why are they considered people of the book? Isnt this a contradiction?

If they dispute with thee, Say: I have submitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me.
And say to the People of the book and to those who are unlearned" Do ye( also) submit yourselves? In they do, they are in right guidance.But if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the message and in Gods sight are(all) his servants.
Sura 3, verse 20

karimguy,

Aww, C'mon. You can do better than that. What about the orgies of baking matzahs with blood: "On Oct. 28, 2001 the largest circulation Egyptian newspaper, Al-Ahram, published an article titled "A Jewish Matzah Made from Arab Blood." It summarized The Matzah of Zion, concluding thus: "The bestial drive to knead Passover matzahs with the blood of non-Jews is [confirmed] in the records of the Palestinian police where there are many recorded cases of the bodies of Arab children who had disappeared being found, torn to pieces without a single drop of blood. The most reasonable explanation is that the blood was taken to be kneaded into the dough of extremist Jews to be used in matzahs to be devoured during Passover."
?

Oops! Its
Hamas that exists to drink the blood of Jews. Not the other way around. I'm so confused. Please enlighten us with more wisdom. Hamas must not be an islamic organization. Right? Again, thanks for your help, and your deep insight.

Karim, I was referring to the ape/pig story with the Quran (7:166, 2:65, and 5:60). That speaks to a general mindset, given how often Muslims refer to unbelievers in general and Jews in particular as "apes and pigs."

The hadiths complete the picture, such as the one where a tree is said to say, "O Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, come kill him."

How would the media have covered it if the gang was not Muslim, but say a gang of Huegonots or Zionists or irate Catholic Priests? I wonder if the MSM would have the same 'oh hum' reaction?

Karimguy, I think pretty much everyone here is too savvy to fall for the "Quote from the Peaceful Verses" routine.

Anyways, Dr. Pepper pretty much gave a nice overview of the hateful verses in the Koran.

"I don't need to explain anything, the world is full of nutcases." post by karimguy

Nutcases? Yes, indeed there are 1.2 billion of them. They are called muslims. They are crazy enough to believe that God would actually send a marauding, murdering, raping, jew baiting, lying, thieving, pedophile barbarian as his messanger.

By the way, I looked up the word "nutcase" in the dictionary. It said "synonymous with muslim."

Earlier I was accused of being a racist. I would claim the title but islam is not a race. islamaphobic I might claim but it sounds so negative. How about I just say I am glad to be in the company of such fine people. When the muslims insult us, try and distract us, and claim victum status are they racist? I'm just so confused, I guess it's time to draw a few cartoons.

"Halimi was found on Monday tied to a tree, naked and wounded, with burns covering all parts of his body. He died on the way to the hospital."

Torturing & cruelly killing the victim shows a viciousness, depravity & deep hatred by the killers. Muslims have always killed like this. Even what was done to the Indian Hindu sailor recently: bite marks, beatings...vicious hate crime.

From

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/displayArticle.asp?col=§ion=theuae&xfile=data/theuae/2006/February/theuae_February438.xml

"The authorities concerned in the UAE were informed about the incident, as it was the closest land from the international waters where the incident took place in the oil tanker. The body of the dead man was taken to the morgue of the Fujairah Hospital, and all people on board the ship were apprehended. “After examining the body, traces of beating marks were found on the head, asphyxiation and teeth bites on the shoulder. Medical check-up also revealed clear smashing on the skull” said the source."

Limiting Muslim Immigration

Its imperative that the West curtail Muslim immigration, including the massive influx of fake Muslim refugees. Even if most Muslims are kind and tolerant, the intolerant minority is far too dangerous to non-Muslim communties in the West and to our values of equality and freedom. Check out Dave's site:

http://victimsofallah.blogspot.com/

Pepper,

When you argue you cant expect me to answer a hole truckload of red herings. This is cheap. I can answer a few at a time and I am alone here. First of all most of these verses dont say Jews, but children of Israel. If you consider the Koran Anti-Semitic for chiding the children of Israel, what can you say about the old Testament calling Jerusalem the whore of Babylon and telling the children of Israel to kill themselves? Since Islam considers itself an extension and improvement of Judaism, this is not surprising. Most of the verses chide Unbelievers and Polytheists, not Jews and Christians. What language did Jesus use to rebuke his people? Snakes, hypocrites and vipers come to mind.
Where does the Koran say Jews look ugly in 62:5?

The similitude of those who were charged with( the obligation of the) Mosaic law, but who susequently failed is that of a donkey which carris huge tomes(but understands them not)...

I though you knew the Koran? Obviously you dont.

... we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a griveous punishment sura 4, 161

How does this differ from other religion? No it
even better because it doesnt condem all Jews, but those who reject faith.

Sura 5, 59 doesnt address Jews but all people of the book and says most, but not all, are rebellious and disobedient.Again no different from other religions.

They must convert to Islam only, or else be doomed (2:62-65, 3:85

Surprisingly the Koran says just the opposite.

Those who believe(in the Quran) and those who follow the Jewish scriptures amd the Christians and the Sabians Any who believe in God and the last day and work righteousness shall have their reward with their lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. Sura 2, verse 62

Please find me something similar in your bible.

Say: come I will rehearse what God hath( really) prohibited you from, join not anything as equal with him. Be good to your parents, kill not your children on a plea of want-we provide sustenace for you and for them- come not nigh to shamefull deeds whether open or secret.Take not life, which God has made sacred, except which by way of law and justice. Thus doth he command you that ye may learn widsom. Sura 6, verse 151

The Koran mentions fighting but other then the old Testament it lays down clear moral code and tell Muslims not to transgress 2, verse 190. Most of the verses in no way relate to Jews and Christians but to the fighting between Mohammad and the Meccans. Mohammad said that whoever kills one of the People of the book unjustly he will testify against him on judgement day. There is much more to say but this will suffice for now.
but this

Someone who lives in Paris reports this poor young man was castrated, fingers cut off, eyes gouged out. This "someone" knows people who know the man's family. That this murder is all French Jews have been talking about for the last few days, perhaps weeks

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1581534/posts?page=49#49

Please find me something similar in your bible. -posted by Karimguy

We've read the Quran; perhaps you should reciprocate and read the Bible yourself.

Enjoy:

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/

Police have distributed a picture of Youssef Fofana, 26, who is the presumed head of the gang.

My comment: Fofana appears to be an Ivory Coast name. This nation is 40% Muslims. This ringleader is black, not Arab. I presume he's Muslim

Last week, a young woman, suspected of acting as 'the lure' in the murder, gave herself up. Raids then resulted in the arrest of 15 other suspects, aged between 17 and 32, in a poor suburb of Bagneux, near Paris.

I have to go now but I say this. There are vicious and sexist verses in the Bible(particulary the old Testament), but does that mean there is no command to do good and to love your neighbour as thyself, or beautiful poetry in the song of solomon? I cant deny that. I have just shown you verses of the Koran which also talk about doing good and being kind. Acknowledge this please.

Good night

where in the koran does it say,if you murder people while comittin suicide,you will get virgin's as a reword?

plus,these virgins,they are what,5-6 years old?

i thought god beleive's children are pure

where in the koran does it say,if you murder people while comittin suicide,you will get virgin's as a reword?

I your sick pornographic fantasy it does.

good night

my sick fantasy?it's you buddy muhomad that likes em young,and you think he's a swell guy

Isn't it interesting to notice that Google - which hastily removed the Patrick Henry video that was critical of Radical Islam - has become a conduit for the dissemination of Islamist propaganda?

This is the most recent example:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7507581729367513010

There is also a video showing footage from Middle Eastern TV of President Bush and Mr. Blair with a soundtrack about "gay bars" superimposed. Apparently, Google sensitivities while extending to Radical Islam do not extend to attempts to denigrate the elected leaders of democratic states by implying they are corrupt because they do not police people's bedrooms.

It will be interesting to see if the latest Radical Islamist video, in which these sick and evil curs libel decent people and dishonour the memory of the dead stays up idefinitely. My bet is that it will, but perhaps I am being too cynical.

Is Google dhimmified or not. That is the question.

I have just shown you verses of the Koran which also talk about doing good and being kind. Acknowledge this please.

Meaningless because the Jihad verses have supremacy over the peaceful verses when they contradict each other. Plus Muhammad's later life of pirate, pedophile, warlord, mass murderer has primacy over his earlier life when he was outnumbered. When he preached peace and from where the peaceful Koran verses come from. Once Muhammad got powerful he embarked on a life of mass murder and conquest. His four immediate successors, the right guided Caliphs did the same in order to spread Islam.

I have to go now but I say this. There are vicious and sexist verses in the Bible(particulary the old Testament),

These are merely instructive, to draw lessons from. The evil Muhammad of your unholy Koran is to be emulated. You Muslims claim he lead  a perfect life, worthy of emulation in all times and places. Muslims are supposed to copy his life. And since Muhammad lead a life of terror, Jihad, pedophilia in his later years, we have a huge problem

Karimguy,

Are you saying then that you accept part but not all of the Koran....

Christians often pick pieces of the Bible that they feel were simply a reflection of the historical period during which they were written, so they do not believe that they really apply. This is particularly true of the old testament since the death of Jesus negated so many of the laws -- but, and please correct me if I am wrong, does Islam contain a "these verses don't count" disclaimer?

And, regarding the comment that the Jewish Man's fingers had been cut off...

http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_11459.shtml

SLAY THE NON-MUSLIMS: DIRECT QUOTES FROM THE QURAN

8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.

This is the last thing I am going to say.

8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

What exactly do you do in war, throw the enemy with roses and give them a Valentines card? Again this Sura came in Medinah and is related to the fight between Meccans and Muslims.

Karmimguy,

Ah. I see now. YOU are capable of making the distinction of when a verse does or does not apply. I ask you in all seriousness, does Islam allow the average follower to make such distinctions?

If it does, it seems that some greater education on this matter is needed as other Muslims are not as enlightened as you are regarding how to apply the book.

8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

What exactly do you do in war, throw the enemy with roses and give them a Valentines card? Again this Sura came in Medinah and is related to the fight between Meccans and Muslims. 

Barbaric Muslims are beheading non Muslims all the time because you are at war with everyone who doesn't buy into your sick cult. Beheadings in Iraq, Philippines, Chechnya, Thailand come to mind. Muhammad's demonic strategy is to instill fear in the enemy via barbaric tortures and murders so that the enemy surrenders. Cutting short the war. A dishonorable way to wage war but since when has Islam valued honor? Killing civilians via suicide bombs? More dishonor and barbarism. Today's Muslims wage war the same barbaric way Muhammad did

"Maiduguri bore the brunt of the violence, and it was there that fifteen people were killed and the eleven churches were torched, with 115 people being arrested. There also were reports of attacks on businesses owned by Christians, as Muslims swarmed through the city center with machetes, sticks and iron rods. One group even threw a tyre around a man, poured petrol on him and set him ablaze.

"What would civilisation do without such a peace-loving religion?"

http://www.eureferendum.blogspot.com/

Oh, and don't forget - check this out:

Radical Islamic video propaganda currently screening at Google Video

I really want to see if Google continues to disseminate this filth idenfinitely or not. Is Google dhimmified or not? That is the question.

karimguy: Would you have seen a post here if the victim was North African and the guilty Jewish?

So first you deny that the attack was anti-Semitic and now you argue that had the Jews done the same thing no one would be outraged.

Advise to Karim, your brothers in faith did, deal with it. Stop denying reality, blaming others, stop with all the stupid excuses.

Gee karimguy, you've just showed me how wrong I
was to attribute the constant stream of
islamically condoned torture, muder, and ethnic
cleansing to islam! And by golly, you're right,
those Israelis are just committing a holocaust
in Israel, err "Palestine", why they're worse
than the Nazis!

Only, Arab Muslims killed more blacks in Sudan
in the last five years than Israel killed
Arabs, period. And the Islamic killers always
appeal to Koranic verses, or hadiths, and
two faced liars like you come and tell us not to
believe it, they must be extremists, blah, blah,
blah. Bull. Yours is a murderous cult, invented by a pedophiile, rapist, murder, and thief.

Not to change the subject....Has anyone heard about this?

Thanks!
IR

Textbooks Proselytize for Allah

By Kalavai Venkat

FrontPageMagazine.com | February 17, 2006

Muslim organizations have not only used California schools and textbooks to proselytize for Allah, but they now seek to portray other religions through an Islamic prism, claim the modern Jews do not have an historical connection to the nation of Israel, and reintroduce the charge of deicide to American textbooks. At least three major publishers whose textbooks are under consideration for adoption by the State of California – Ballard & Tighe, Houghton-Mifflin, and McDougal Littell – have enlisted Shabbir Mansuri, Founding Director of Council on Islamic Education (CIE), as content consultant. Publishers shared their pre-print edition of textbooks with CIE, thereby facilitating the sanitizing of Islam before the textbooks made it to the public domain. But that was apparently not enough for CIE; they have submitted an additional set of edits that would help seventh grade Californians understand their respective religions from an Islamic perspective.

IceRat, see here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010289.php

"Not to change the subject....Has anyone heard about this?"

Yes, IceRatt, I did.

I thought it interesting. Softly, softly, catchee monkey ... that's how they're playing it here.

Most of the suggested changes are minor and suggested in a bland and almost tentative way. But the overall effect is in an unhelpful direction.

Even the "deicides" charge is approached cautiously - far more so than one would think from Front Page's editorializing:

"The sentence could read: “Jesus was detained by some Jewish leaders and turned over to Roman authorities for judgment."

And, yet, why make that suggestion at all? Why would a Muslim even be interested in commenting on the crucifixion - a matter of more interest to Christians - except, as it seems, to try to drive a wedge between Christians and Jews?

Any crimes commited by perceived "victim cultures" must be excused under a hail of self flagellation by the Zeropeans.
Every time Cars are burnt, Women brutally assulted,Buildings trashed, we must immediatley take the cat o nine tails out of the cupboard and administer punishment to ourselves to exhonerate the Muslim thugs.
Wow ! this is the mindset that result form years of enlightened intellectual left bank thinking in Paris and elsewhere.
French pols and police will be in damage control mode over this.
Oh but there is no antisemitism in FRANCE NON! and certainly not amongst the cherished Muslim community. They must have been empoverished hungry youth -after his wallet to buy food- and he was a heavy smoker who had an accident with his cig pack whilst being asked to share his wealth with the young disadvantaged youths.
Yes France must apologise to the Islamic community for this outrage!

Rebecca JW, Yojimbo-

Thanks for your reply. I'm stationed in Europe and I have been trying to keep up with the news.

I can't wait to get back to the states.

IR
RandyB
SSG, USA

R ukidnme?
Does it really make a differece anymore whether the guy was jewish or not? Dems Moozlums is gonna start hatin' evrybody very soon. By the time they start a war against the Danes and now the Italians, for wearing a t-shirt no less, Merkins, Jews, oh and of course, any opportunity to kill themselves and their own (shiites vs. sunni's) it itsn't going to matter anymore. The trouble they are causing themselves by having the rest of the civilized world hate them is unprecedented. What typically takes centuries to happen, these yabo's are going to do in a couple of months. Just look around, it's starting to happen already, very moderate westerners are starting to say "get out, go back, leave our countries. I've started my own campaign by cutting out all Shawarma, but not Shish Taouk, it's too soon.

These Islamotrolls, with the exception of Naseem and Ispanan, seem to have the vocabulary and spelling skills of a five year old, which is in keeping with the backwardness of that religion cum maniacal death cult. But nobody can deny the savagery of Islam as manifested in this horrific and brutal antisemitic slaying of a total innocent - all done to please the bloodthirsty God Allah. There are obvious parallels between Islam and the Aztec death-obsessed cult when it comes to sheer depravity and murderlust, and we know the ultimate goal of Muslims is to destroy our civilization and culture because it runs counter to everything set out in the Koran. But almost as disgraceful as the murder itself is the politically-correct coverage it has been given by the press and media, and in the coming years, the folly of letting in people whose culture is so diametrically different to ours will become so blindingly obvious to even the most stubborn of PC-eejits.

This thread has been very educational.

1) A horrible antisemitic crime committed seemingly in the name of islam.

2) A seemingly reasonable muslim defending islam.

3) yet at every turn, his arguments are thwarted and rebuked.

Just as many Germans probably were in denial over the evils of the Nazi party, it seems many intelligent muslims are in denial over their... what to call islam? A death cult? Sadly, that's what it seems to be.

I have an open mind. I read sites both pro and con islam. And in all honesty, speaking as someone who is non-religious yet respectful of religious people - islam does seem to be steeped in hatred, death worship and ultimately geared toward a philosphy of religious world domination.

Neither Christianity or Judaism, taken from their books, suggest the need for world domination by their followers. Christians are to convert by good examples and dissemination of Christ's teachings. Jews are not intended to convert at all. Most religions I've looked at are similar - either quietly operating in their own peaceful niche, or peacefully sharing their ideas with others who might listen.

Islam on the other hand, appears to be a religion of conquering - of struggle, i.e. Jihad. The final goal is to have an islamic planet, with perhaps a small underclass of non-muslims with severe social limitations. Essentially tolerated servants, slaves.

That appears to be ultimate goal of Islam. And that is a goal the world cannot tolerate.

If you are Muslim, I understand yoru sense of connection to that religion and culture - it's like your family. Many Germans went through a similar period with Nazism. How can you turn on yoru own family, who may be Nazi's? So you turn your back on what is real, and pretend everything is alright. You only look at the pretty propaganda, or in this case the nice parts of the Koran. But at some point, people need to stop doing that, because in the end, those who ignore an evil reality are themselves guilty to some degree as well.

Look at the known facts about Muhammed. Some of the things he did and was involved in, how he lived, and what is quoted in the Koran, are those truly - BE HONEST - truly acts and sayings one would expect from a man guided by a loving, good god? Don't bring up other religions - that is a diversion. Look at what is truly there. See it for what it is. See what Muslims around the world are doing and saying in their most recent rampages. They are being truly Islamic - and it's a horrific site by any sane person's estimation.

All European life died in Auschwitz

By Sebastian Vilar Rodriguez

I walked down the street in Barcelona, and suddenly discovered a terrible truth - Europe died in Auschwitz.

We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims. In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, and talent. We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful people who changed the world.

The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world. These are the people we burned. And under the pretense of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride.

They have turned our beautiful European cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime. Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their naive hosts.

And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition.

We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for hoping for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs.

What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe.

When Sex Can Be Deadly... to a Jew

http://aardvark.iblog.com/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=16541

Excellent post Spirit.

spirit

I need no more proof of your racism. This article is absolutely abhorrent. The thought that such flithy junk can be condoned is mind boggling. When are you starting to build an Ausschwitz for Muslims?

Tapper--You a right to make the analogy between Muslims who remain quiet about the excesses made by their co-religionists and many Germans remaining quiet during the years leading up to WWII and during WWII. I am reading a great book right now (Stones in the River, or something like that) and it tells the story of a midget (small person) living in Germany during this time period. The parallels between the Nazis and serious Muslims is astonishing. For one thing, saying anything about Hitler, even drawing a funny cartoon of him, could land a person in jail.

I am glad the Muslims are rioting. I hope it opens many eyes and gives non-Muslims the courage of their convictions; the courage to speak up. Characters in this book wonder numerous times if they had spoken up earlier whether it would have made a difference...

Karim guy, how many of the Palestinian fatalities were actually killed by their own on suspicion of being collaborators? Quite a few. Be sure to subtract those when forming your opinion about how violent are the Israelis.

http://www.thenausea.com/elements/Palestine/Palestin%20traitors/index.html

For those of you with strong stomachs the above link is pictures of those fun loving pals doing a street execution of suspected traitors.

Truth hurts, doesn't it Karim. Your religion cum death cult is a byword for savagery, misogyny, backwardness, intolerance, brutality, bestiality, barbarity, retardedness and much more. You degrade women by forcing them to cover up in hideous burkas. You force infidel minorities in Muslim lands to pay the hated and humiliating jizya or bumiputra. Your religion has plundered and murdered its way throughout 14 centuries, and not offered a shred of regret and nothing that remotely resembles an apology. It seems the only time Muslims party is when Westerners get murdered en masse, like 911, Bali, Madrid, Beslan, London and many other hideous acts of barbarity, and hardly a day goes by without news of churches being burned to the ground with their congregations massacred, or some poor Buddhist priest getting beheaded in the name of Allah. Your prophet was a vile rapist, murderer, thief, brigand and paedophile, and given that background, it is no accident that Islam is responsible for 99% of the worlds terror atrocities - 4,500 since 911 alone. And lets examine what genuinely educated people have said about Islam over the years:

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

“Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.” Sir Winston Churchill

“The religion of Islam above all others was founded upon the sword … Moreover it provides incentives to slaughter, and in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men – filled with a wild and merciless fanaticism.” – Sir Winston Churchill

"In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent God; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE (Adams's capital letters)… Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant… While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men.” - John Quincy Adams

"The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God. The vanquished may purchase their lives, by the payment of tribute; the victorious may be appeased by a false and delusive promise of peace; and the faithful follower of the prophet, may submit to the imperious necessities of defeat: but the command to propagate the Moslem creed by the sword is always obligatory, when it can be made effective. The commands of the prophet may be performed alike, by fraud, or by force." - John Quincy Adams

"The Muslim religion is so unreformed since it was created that nowhere in the Muslim world has there been any real advance in science, or art or literature, or technology in the last 500 years" - Lord Tebbit

"I studied the Quran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction that by and large there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion more to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself." - Alexis de Tocqueville ~ 1850

"Ever since the religion of Islam appeared in the world, the espousers of it...have been as wolves and tigers to all other nations, rending and tearing all that fell into their merciless paws, and grinding them with their iron teeth; that numberless cities are raised from the foundation, and only their name remaining; that many countries, which were once as the garden of God, are now a desolate wilderness; and that so many once numerous and powerful nations are vanished from the earth! Such was, and is at this day, the rage, the fury, the revenge, of these destroyers of human kind." – John Wesley

"The deeper study of the Koran, Hadith, and Arab history led me to believe that Islam had been cleverly devised on the principle of divide and rule. And its purpose is to enable the Arabs to dominate the rest of the world. I have no doubt the Prophet wanted to raise himself to the same status as Allah. Muhammad loved Arabia and its culture, and his one desire was to create a strong, conquering Arab nation that believed in him and propagated his name. This could only be achieved by imperial dominance." - Salman Rushdie

"Today (1950), the hatred of the Moslem countries against the West is becoming hatred against Christianity itself. Although the statesmen have not yet taken it into account, there is still grave danger that the temporal power of Islam may return and, with it, the menace that it may shake off a West which has ceased to be Christian, and affirm itself as a great anti-Christian world Power." - Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, 1950

"Will not perhaps the temporal power of Islam return and with it the menace of an armed Mohammedan world, which will shake off the domination of Europeans -- still nominally Christian -- and reappear as the prime enemy of our civilization? The future always comes as a surprise, but political wisdom consists in attempting at least some partial judgment of what that surprise may be. And for my part I cannot but believe that a main unexpected thing of the future is the return of Islam." - Hilaire Belloc, The Great Heresies 1938.

"The character attributed to Muhammad in the biography of Ibn Ishaq is exceedingly unfavourable. In order to gain his ends Muhammad recoils from no expedient, and he approves of similar unscrupulousness on the part of his adherents, when exercised in his interest. He organizes assassinations and wholesale massacres. His career as the tyrant of Medina is that of a robber chief whose political economy consists of securing and dividing plunder. He is himself an unbridled libertine [morally or sexually unrestrained] and encourages the same passion in his followers. For whatever he does he is prepared to plead the express authorization of his deity. It is, however, impossible to find any Islamic religious doctrine, which he is not prepared to abandon in order to secure a political end. At different points in his career he abandons the unity of God and his claim to the title of Prophet. This is a disagreeable picture for the founder of a religion, and it cannot be pleaded that it is a picture drawn by an enemy." - Islamic scholar Dr. D.S. Margoliouth

And last but not least:

“Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled and incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of [other] countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world…. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]. Does this mean sitting back until [non-Muslims] overcome us? Islam says: Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this mean that we should surrender to the enemy? Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Koranic] verses and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.” - Ayatollah Khomeini

Case proved.

spirit of 1683:

There are obvious parallels between Islam and the Aztec death-obsessed cult when it comes to sheer depravity and murder lust

Of course there are. They are pagans. Jihadist Islam is fueled by blood lust and so were the Aztecs. All these demons feed off the suffering of the tortured victims. It is not enough to just plain kill your enemy. You must feed off his suffering. Some of our Indian tribes were the same. They reveled in torturing prisoners from other tribes long before the white man came. They were pagans.

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..." HILLARY RODMAN CLINTON, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3

Already more than a billion-people strong, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion. ABCNEWS, Abcnews.com

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the country." NEWSDAY, March 7, 1989, p.4

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the United States..." NEW YORK TIMES, Feb 21, 1989, p.1

Moslems are the world's fastest-growing group..." USA TODAY, The population referance bureau, Feb. 17, 1989, p.4A

"Muhammed is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities. " Encyclopedia Britannica

"There are more Muslims in North America then Jews Now." Dan Rathers, ABCNEWS

"Islam is the fastest growing religion in North America." TIMES MAGAZINE

"Islam continues to grow in America, and no one can doubt that!" CNN, December 15, 1995

"The religion of Islam is growing faster than any other religion in the world." MIKE WALLACE, 60 MINUTES

"Five to 6 million strong, Muslims in America already outnumber Presbyterians, Episcopalians, and Mormons, and they are more numerous than Quakers, Unitarians, Seventh-day Adventists, Mennonites, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Christian Scientists, combined. Many demographers say Islam has overtaken Judaism as the country's second-most commonly practiced religion; others say it is in the passing lane." JOHAN BLANK, USNEWS (7/20/98)

"In fact, religion experts say Islam is the second-largest religion in the United States... Islam has 5 million to 6 million members, followed by Judaism, with approximately 4.5 million..... And Islam is believed to be fastest-growing religion in the country, with half its expansion coming from new immigrants and the other half from conversions." By ELSA C. ARNETT Knight-Ridder News Service

Professor Keith Moore, one of the world’s prominent scientists of anatomy and embryology. University of Toronto, Canada It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur’aan about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or 'Allah', because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of Allah.

"But Islam has a still further service to render to the cause of humanity. It stands after all nearer to the real East than Europe does, and it possesses a magnificent tradition of inter-racial understanding and cooperation. No other society has such a record of success uniting in an equality of status, of opportunity, and of endeavours so many and so various races of mankind . . . Islam has still the power to reconcile apparently irreconcilable elements of race and tradition. If ever the opposition of the great societies of East and West is to be replaced by cooperation, the mediation of Islam is an indispensable condition. In its hands lies very largely the solution of the problem with which Europe is faced in its relation with East. If they unite, the hope of a peaceful issue is immeasurably enhanced. But if Europe, by rejecting the cooperation of Islam, throws it into the arms of its rivals, the issue can only be disastrous for both." --H.A.R. Gibb, WHITHER ISLAM, London, 1932, p. 379.

"It (Islam) replaced monkishness by manliness. It gives hope to the slave, brotherhood to mankind, and recognition of the fundamental facts of human nature." --Canon Taylor, Paper read before the Church Congress at Walverhamton, Oct. 7, 1887; Quoted by Arnoud in THE PREACHING OF ISLAM, pp. 71-72.

The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammed. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he? " Lamartine, Historie de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol. 11 pp. 276-2727

"If a man like Muhammed were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness." George Bernard Shaw

"How, for instance, can any other appeal stand against that of the Moslem who, in approaching the pagan, says to him, however obscure or degraded he may be 'Embrace the faith, and you are at once equal and a brother.' Islam knows no color line." (S. S. Leeder, VEILED MYSTERIES OF EGYPT)

Professor William W. Hay is one of the best known marine scientists in the United States. satellite photography and emote-sensing techniques. Professor Hay replied: I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scripture of the Holy Qur’aan, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages. Professor Hay: Well, I would think it must be the divine being!

Professor Yushudi Kusan: Director of the Tokyo Observatory,
I can say, I am very mush impressed by finding true astronomical facts in the Qur’aan.

Professor Alfred Kroner who is one of the world’s most famous geologists
"Thinking about many of these questions and thinking where Muhammad came from, he was after all a bedouin. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case.

Dr. T.V.N. Persaud is a Professor of Anatomy and Head of the Department of Anatomy, and a professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. He is the author or editor of 25 books, and has published over 181 scientific papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada. "It seems to me that Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He could not read or write. In fact, he was illiterate. We are talking about 1400 years ago. You have someone who was illiterate making profound pronouncement and statements and are amazingly accurate about scientific nature. I personally cannot see how this could be mere chance. There are too many accuracy’s and, like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind in concerning that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements."

Joe Leigh Simpson, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at the North Western University in Chicago in the United States of America. Professor Simpson said: It follows, I think, that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion, but in fact religion can guide science by adding revelation to some traditional scientific approaches. That there exists statements in the Qur’aan shown by science to be valid, which supports knowledge in the Qur’aan having been derived from Allah.

Professor Palmer a scientist from the U.S.
We need research into the history of early Middle Eastern oral traditions to know whether in fact such historical events have been reported. If there is no such record, it strengthens the belief that Allah transmitted through Muhammad bits of his knowledge that we have only discovered for ourselves in recent times. We look forward to a continuing dialogue on the topic of science in the Qur’aan in the context of geology. Thank you very much.

Professor Tagata Tagasone, formerly Head of the Department of Anatomy and Embryology at the University of Shiang Mai in Thailand. He is now the Dean of the College of the Medicine at the University. From my studies and from what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur’aan 1400 years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the One Who is an eligible Creator. This Creator must be Allah, or Allah. Therefore, I think this is the time to say ‘Laa ilaaha illallah’, that there is no Allah to worship except Allah, ‘Muhammad Rasool Allah’, Muhammad is messenger of Allah...

Professor Armstrong, Scientist works at NASA, I am impressed that how remarkably some of the ancient writings seem to correspond to modern and recent Astronomy. There may well have to be something beyond what we understand as ordinary human experience to account for the writings that we have seen.

Professor Dorja Rao, It is difficult to imagine that this type of knowledge was existing at that time, around 1400 years back. May be some of the things they have simple idea about, but do describe those things in great detail is very difficult. So, this is definitely not a simple human knowledge.

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level." --Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc., 1978, p. 33.

"No other society has such a record of success in uniting in an equality of status, of opportunity and endeavour so many and so varied races of mankind. The great Muslim communities of Africa, India and Indonesia, perhaps also the small community in Japan, show that Islam has still the power to reconcile apparently irreconcilable elements of race and tradition. If ever the opposition of the great societies of the East and west is to be replaced by cooperation, the mediation of Islam is an indispensable condition." (H.A.R. Gibb, WHITHER ISLAM, p. 379)

The nation's claim to be a Christian country is about to meet its first challenge: the number of practising Muslims is set to overtake Anglican Christians.... There has also been a number of high-profile conversions to Islam from Christianity. These include Mike Tyson, the former world champion boxer; Chris Eubank, the British middleweight boxing champion, who has changed his name to Hamdan; and Cat Stevens, the pop musician, who calls himself Yousef Islam.... Prince Charles courted controversy earlier this year when he reaffirmed his claim that when he succeeds the throne, he does not wish to be the defender of only the Christian faith. Rajeev Syal and Christopher Morgan Sunday Times (London, U.K.)

"I have studied him - the wonderful man - and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ he must be called the saviour of humanity. " George Bernard Shaw in "The Genuine Islam"

"Muhammad, the inspired man who founded Islam, was born about A.D. 570 into an Arabian tribe that worshipped idols. Orphaned at birth, he was always particularly solicitous of the poor and needy, the widow and the orphan, the slave and the downtrodden. At twenty, he was already a successful businessman, and soon became director of camel caravans for a wealthy widow. When he reached twenty-five, his employer, recognizing his merit, proposed marriage. Even though she was fifteen years older, he married her, and as long as she lived, remained a devoted husband. "Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word, sensing his own inadequacy. But the angel commanded 'Read.' So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: 'There is one God.' "In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred, and rumours of God's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being. "At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are any among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives forever." --James A. Michener, "Islam: The Misunderstood Religion," in READER'S DIGEST (American edition), May 1955, pp. 68-70.

"In little more than a year he was actually the spiritual, nominal and temporal rule of Medina, with his hands on the lever that was to shake the world." John Austin, "Muhammad the Prophet of Allah," in T.P. 's and Cassel's Weekly for 24th September 1927.

"Everything made so much sense. This is the beauty of the Qur'an; it asks you to reflect and reason....When I read the Qur'an further, it talked about prayer, kindness and charity. I was not a Muslim yet, but I felt the only answer for me was the Qur'an and God had sent it to me." Cat Stevens (YusufIslam), former British pop star.

"Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born at Mecca, in Arabia the man who, of all men exercised the greatest influence upon the human race . . . Mohammed . . . " John William Draper, M.D., L.L.D., A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, London 1875, Vol.1, pp.329-330

"Muhammad was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him." Diwan Chand Sharma, The Prophets of the East, Calcutta 1935, p. l 22.

"People like Pasteur and Salk are leaders in the first sense. People like Gandhi and Confucius, on one hand, and Alexander, Caesar and Hitler on the other, are leaders in the second and perhaps the third sense. Jesus and Buddha belong in the third category alone. Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Mohammed, who combined all three functions. To a lesser degree, Moses did the same." Professor Jules Masserman

Ahmed Versi, editor of the weekly Muslim News, said the growth of Islam has been constant: "The younger generation of Muslims that I have encountered is becoming more aware of its Muslim identity and is therefore practising its faith with vigour."

"The extinction of race consciousness as between Muslims is one of the outstanding achievements of Islam and in the contemporary world there is, as it happens, a crying need for the propagation of this Islamic virtue..." (A.J. Toynbee, CIVILIZATION ON TRIAL, New York, p. 205)

"Sense of justice is one of the most wonderful ideals of Islam, because as I read in the Qur'an I find those dynamic principles of life, not mystic but practical ethics for the daily conduct of life suited to the whole world." --Lectures on "The Ideals of Islam;" see SPEECHES AND WRITINGS OF SAROJINI NAIDU, Madras, 1918, p. 167.

"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated." --De Lacy O'Leary, ISLAM AT THE CROSSROADS, London, 1923, p. 8.

"The Muslim community is much more aware of its religion and the use that religion plays within its community." Dr Peter Brierley, executive director of the Christian Research Association, a London-based charity

"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." --G.B. Shaw, THE GENUINE ISLAM, Vol. 1, No. 81936.

"A growing number of Muslims in America, more than 40 percent are African-American," Charles Bierbauer, from the Senior Washington Correspondent

"The extinction of race consciousness as between Muslims is one of the outstanding achievements of Islam, and in the contemporary world there is, as it happens, a crying need for the propagation of this Islamic virtue." --A.J. Toynbee, CIVILIZATION ON TRIAL, New York, 1948, p. 205.

"The rise of Islam is perhaps the most amazing event in human history. Springing from a land and a people like previously negligible, Islam spread within a century over half the earth, shattering great empires, overthrowing long established religions, remoulding the souls of races, and building up a whole new world - world of Islam.

"The closer we examine this development the more extraordinary does it appear. The other great religions won their way slowly, by painful struggle and finally triumphed with the aid of powerful monarchs converted to the new faith. Christianity had its Constantine, Buddhism its Asoka, and Zoroastrianism its Cyrus, each lending to his chosen cult the mighty force of secular authority. Not so Islam. Arising in a desert land sparsely inhabited by a nomad race previously undistinguished in human annals, Islam sallied forth on its great adventure with the slenderest human backing and against the heaviest material odds. Yet Islam triumphed with seemingly miraculous ease, and a couple of generations saw the Fiery Crescent borne victorious from the Pyrenees to the Himalayas and from the desert of Central Asia to the deserts of Central Africa." --A.M.L. Stoddard, quoted in ISLAM - THE RELIGION OF ALL PROPHETS, Begum Bawani Waqf, Karachi, Pakistan, p. 56.

"I am not a Muslim in the usual sense, though I hope I am a "Muslim" as "one surrendered to God," but I believe that embedded in the Quran and other expressions of the Islamic vision are vast stores of divine truth from which I and other occidentals have still much to learn, and 'Islam is certainly a strong contender for the supplying of the basic framework of the one religion of the future.'" --W. Montgomery Watt, ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY TODAY, London, 1983, p. ix.

'I believe in One God and Mohammed the Apostle of God,' is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honours of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion." --Edward Gibbon and Simon Ocklay, HISTORY OF THE SARACEN EMPIRE, London, 1870, p. 54.

"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports." --Bosworth Smith, MOHAMMAD AND MOHAMMADANISM, London, 1874, p. 92.

"His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad." --W. Montgomery Watt, MOHAMMAD AT MECCA, Oxford, 1953, p. 52.

"The doctrine of brotherhood of Islam extends to all human beings, no matter what color, race or creed. Islam is the only religion which has been able to realize this doctrine in practice. Muslims wherever on the world they are will recognize each other as brothers." Mr. R. L. Mellema, Holland, Anthropologist, Writer and Scholar.

"It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher." --Annie Besant, THE LIFE AND TEACHINGS OF MUHAMMAD, Madras, 1932, p. 4.

"The essential and definite element of my conversion to Islam was the Qur'an. I began to study it before my conversion with the critical spirit of a Western intellectual .... There are certain verses of this book, the Qur'an, revealed more than thirteen centuries ago, which teach exactly the same notions as the most modern scientific researches do. This definitely converted me."
Ali Selman Benoist, France, Doctor of Medicine.

"I have read the Sacred Scriptures of every religion; nowhere have I found what I encountered in Islam: perfection. The Holy Qur'an, compared to any other scripture I have read, is like the Sun compared to that of a match. I firmly believe that anybody who reads the Word of Allah with a mind that is not completely closed to Truth, will become a Muslim." Saifuddin Dirk Walter Mosig, U. S.A.

"The universal brotherhood of Islam, regardless of race, politics, color or country, has been brought home to me most keenly many times in my life -- and this is another feature which drew me towards the Faith." Col. Donald S. Rockwell, U.S.A. Poet, Critic and Author.

"Medieval Islam was technologically advanced and open to innovation. It achieved far higher literacy rates than in contemporary Europe;it assimilated the legacy of classical Greek civilization to such a degree that many classical books are now known to us only through Arabic copies. It invented windmills ,trigonometry, lateen sails and made major advances in metallurgy, mechanical and chemical engineering and irrigation methods. In the middle-ages the flow of technology was overwhelmingly from Islam to Europe rather from Europe to Islam. Only after the 1500's did the net direction of flow begin to reverse." (pg 253) Jared Diamond a world renowned UCLA sociologist, and physiologist won the Pulitzer Prize for his book: "Guns, Germs, and Steel."

Case proved

Oh yeah. That last paragraph is the most telling of all.

"Medieval Islam was technologically advanced and open to innovation. It achieved far higher literacy rates than in contemporary Europe;it assimilated the legacy of classical Greek civilization to such a degree that many classical books are now known to us only through Arabic copies. It invented windmills ,trigonometry, lateen sails and made major advances in metallurgy, mechanical and chemical engineering and irrigation methods. In the middle-ages the flow of technology was overwhelmingly from Islam to Europe rather from Europe to Islam. Only after the 1500's did the net direction of flow begin to reverse."

Proves the point that Islam is still stuck in a medieval rut. And there is the saying "By its fruit shall you know the tree". And the fruit of Islam is murder, terrorism, despotism, backwardness, barbarianism, the subjugation of women and religious minorities and the waging of war against modern Western civilization for being modern. How many Muslims have won Nobel Prizes for Chemistry, Physics, Medicine etc? Hardly any out of 1.3 billion Muslims, yet 15 million Jews have produced over 160 Nobel prize winners.

Case proved again.

The assorted crackpots, non-existent authorities, and those quoted to support notions that they were not intended to support, along with one vacuous remark by Jared Diamond, one more candidate for the Irwin Corey World's-Greatest-Authority prize, a remark not only vacuous but which could easily be taken apart phrase by cliche-ridden and historically-inaccurate phrase (starting with that business of all the credit for the Greek manuscripts translated given not to the Jews and Christians who did the translating, and in some cases made use of those manuscripts or helped transmit their contents to Europe, but rather to the Muslims who benefited from those translations, and did so remarkably little to build upon what they were offered from the Greek past by those hard-working Jewish and Christian translators.

The 21st century will see the end of islam. Those freaks of nature that we call muslims are their own worst enemy. By their mindless violence they are telling the world all they deserve is to be wiped off the planet like the fecal matter that they are. It will become very obvious to the non muslim countries that they don't need the muslims at all. Oil can be obtained by killing the muslims and taking over their lands.

tolerance of appeasement? said:
Jauhara,

Got ya! Sorry for lumping you in with Karimguy. I missed the irony and sarcasm. Maybe I need another cup of coffee.

;)

Hey guy, this Blood's for YOU!:)

http://www.infidelphialive.blogspot.com

Karimguy,

You did quote passages that say that not all Jews, Christians, etc. are condemned. But what about:

3:85
Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

5:72
They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ... Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

Everytime I see efforts made to prove that Islam is the fastest growing faith, there is confort taken that in truth, the real fastest growing faith is the Christian faith. The areas where there is the biggest boom in growth of Christian members is in Africa, Asia, and Latin America. Africa itself has seen record growth. Do not be suprised if it ends up that it will be people born on the African continent that brings the Christian faith back to Europe and by extention, North America. One country, China will see many more Christians in the next 20-30 years. They are working to bring the Gospel back to Jerusalam, where it all began. The early monesteries of the Catholic Church and the Jewish communities saved the great contributions of the ancient Greeks and Romans, way before any Muslims came around the scene. About ten years ago, a book came out about how the Irish saved civilization.

Here is a URL for a write up on why the Christian faith is the fastest growing faith there is.

http://www.newdaynews.com/openhouse/index.cgi/noframes/read/4282

The response of "karimguy" to my post is not valuable because we expect him to have a rational debate with us. But it is valuable as providing typical responses that need to be countered in this War of Ideas.

These typical responses tend to be expressed not only by defensive Muslims, but also by whitewashing sympathetic Western Leftists and non-Leftists who have been infected by the dominant PC culture -- and it is to these fellow Westerners that we need to come up with counter-responses. I need some help:

1) "First of all," wrote karimguy, "most of these verses dont say Jews, but children of Israel."

2) "If you consider the Koran Anti-Semitic for chiding the children of Israel, what can you say about the old Testament calling Jerusalem the whore of Babylon and telling the children of Israel to kill themselves?"

3) "Since Islam considers itself an extension and improvement of Judaism, this is not surprising."

4) "Most of the verses chide Unbelievers and Polytheists, not Jews and Christians."

5) "What language did Jesus use to rebuke his people? Snakes, hypocrites and vipers come to mind."

6) "Where does the Koran say Jews look ugly in 62:5?" [I got my list from the Compendium Archimedes is working on; this could be a mistaken reference]. "The similitude of those who were charged with( the obligation of the) Mosaic law, but who susequently failed is that of a donkey which carris huge tomes(but understands them not)..."

7) "... we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a griveous punishment sura 4, 161. How does this differ from other religion? No it
[sic] even better because it doesnt condem all Jews, but those who reject faith."

8) "Sura 5, 59 doesnt address Jews but all people of the book and says most, but not all, are rebellious and disobedient.Again no different from other religions. 'They must convert to Islam only, or else be doomed.' (2:62-65, 3:85)"

9) "Surprisingly the Koran says just the opposite. 'Those who believe(in the Quran) and those who follow the Jewish scriptures amd the Christians and the Sabians Any who believe in God and the last day and work righteousness shall have their reward with their lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.' Sura 2, verse 62"

karimguy goes on to quote "good" verses of the Koran: " 'Say: come I will rehearse what God hath( really) prohibited you from, join not anything as equal with him. Be good to your parents, kill not your children on a plea of want-we provide sustenace for you and for them- come not nigh to shamefull deeds whether open or secret.Take not life, which God has made sacred, except which by way of law and justice. Thus doth he command you that ye may learn widsom.' Sura 6, verse 151"

10) "The Koran mentions fighting but other then [sic] the old Testament it lays down clear moral code and tell Muslims not to transgress 2, verse 190."

11) "Most of the verses in no way relate to Jews and Christians but to the fighting between Mohammad and the Meccans. Mohammad said that whoever kills one of the People of the book unjustly he will testify against him on judgement day."

No this is really sickening. I have been censored for the third time. For what? Is this freedom of speech Hugh? Maybe for saying the truth? Now to light up the mood, here are some good jokes. The best comes from a very failed intellectual type (sort of)called Hugh. You make me laugh every time you post.

"The early monesteries of the Catholic Church and the Jewish communities saved the great contributions of the ancient Greeks and Romans, way before any Muslims came around the scene."

"starting with that business of all the credit for the Greek manuscripts translated given not to the Jews and Christians who did the translating, and in some cases made use of those manuscripts or helped transmit their contents to Europe, but rather to the Muslims who benefited from those translations, and did so remarkably little to build upon what they were offered from the Greek past by those hard-working Jewish and Christian translators"

Here are some Muslim achievements for you.

The concept that the sciences are exclusively the products of Western minds remains unquestioned by most individuals. A review of any of the standard texts or encyclopedias regarding the history of science would support this view. As these books are perused, it becomes evident that the only contributors given significant mention are Europeans and/or Americans. It is hardly necessary to repeat the oft-mentioned names: Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, Bacon, Newton, Da Vinci, Benjamin Franklin, etc. The unavoidable conclusion is that major contributions to the development of the modern sciences by other cultures is minimal. Most texts give little or no mention of the advancements made by ancient Indian, Chinese or, particularly, Muslim scholars.

Western civilization has made invaluable contributions to the development of the sciences. However, so have numerous other cultures. Unfortunately, Westerners have long been credited with discoveries made many centuries before by Islamic scholars. Thus, many of the basic sciences were invented by non-Europeans. For instance, George Sarton states that modern Western medicine did not originate from Europe and that it actually arose from the (Islamic) orient.

The data in this section concerning dates, names and topics of Western advances has been derived from three main sources: World Book Encyclopedia, Encyclopaedia Britannica and Isaac Asimov's 700 page book, Chronology of Science and Discovery. Supportive data for the accomplishments of Islamic scholars is derived from the miscellaneous references listed in the bibliography of this book.

What is Taught: The first mention of man in flight was by Roger Bacon, who drew a flying apparatus. Leonardo da Vinci also conceived of airborne transport and drew several prototypes.

What Should be Taught: Ibn Firnas of Islamic Spain invented, constructed and tested a flying machine in the 800's A.D. Roger Bacon learned of flying machines from Arabic references to Ibn Firnas' machine. The latter's invention antedates Bacon by 500 years and Da Vinci by some 700 years.

What is Taught: Glass mirrors were first produced in 1291 in Venice.

What Should be Taught: Glass mirrors were in use in Islamic Spain as early as the 11th century. The Venetians learned of the art of fine glass production from Syrian artisans during the 9th and 10th centuries.

What is Taught: Until the 14th century, the only type of clock available was the water clock. In 1335, a large mechanical clock was erected in Milan, Italy. This was possibly the first weight-driven clock.

What Should be Taught: A variety of mechanical clocks were produced by Spanish Muslim engineers, both large and small, and this knowledge was transmitted to Europe through Latin translations of Islamic books on mechanics. These clocks were weight-driven. Designs and illustrations of epi-cyclic and segmental gears were provided. One such clock included a mercury escapement. The latter type was directly copied by Europeans during the 15th century. In addition, during the 9th century, Ibn Firnas of Islamic Spain, according to Will Durant, invented a watch-like device which kept accurate time. The Muslims also constructed a variety of highly accurate astronomical clocks for use in their observatories.

What is Taught: In the 17th century, the pendulum was developed by Galileo during his teenage years. He noticed a chandelier swaying as it was being blown by the wind. As a result, he went home and invented the pendulum.

What Should be Taught: The pendulum was discovered by Ibn Yunus al-Masri during the 10th century, who was the first to study and document its oscillatory motion. Its value for use in clocks was introduced by Muslim physicists during the 15th century.

What is Taught: Movable type and the printing press was invented in the West by Johannes Gutenberg of Germany during the 15th century.

What Should be Taught: In 1454, Gutenberg developed the most sophisticated printing press of the Middle Ages. However, movable brass type was in use in Islamic Spain 100 years prior, and that is where the West's first printing devices were made.

What is Taught: Isaac Newton's 17th century study of lenses, light and prisms forms the foundation of the modern science of optics.

What Should be Taught: In the 1lth century al-Haytham determined virtually everything that Newton advanced regarding optics centuries prior and is regarded by numerous authorities as the "founder of optics. " There is little doubt that Newton was influenced by him. Al-Haytham was the most quoted physicist of the Middle Ages. His works were utilized and quoted by a greater number of European scholars during the 16th and 17th centuries than those of Newton and Galileo combined.

What is Taught: Isaac Newton, during the 17th century, discovered that white light consists of various rays of colored light.

What Should be Taught: This discovery was made in its entirety by al-Haytham (1lth century) and Kamal ad-Din (14th century). Newton did make original discoveries, but this was not one of them.

What is Taught: The concept of the finite nature of matter was first introduced by Antione Lavoisier during the 18th century. He discovered that, although matter may change its form or shape, its mass always remains the same. Thus, for instance, if water is heated to steam, if salt is dissolved in water or if a piece of wood is burned to ashes, the total mass remains unchanged.

What Should be Taught: The principles of this discovery were elaborated centuries before by Islamic Persia's great scholar, al-Biruni (d. 1050). Lavoisier was a disciple of the Muslim chemists and physicists and referred to their books frequently.

What is Taught: The Greeks were the developers of trigonometry.

What Should be Taught: Trigonometry remained largely a theoretical science among the Greeks. It was developed to a level of modern perfection by Muslim scholars, although the weight of the credit must be given to al-Battani. The words describing the basic functions of this science, sine, cosine and tangent, are all derived from Arabic terms. Thus, original contributions by the Greeks in trigonometry were minimal.

What is Taught: The use of decimal fractions in mathematics was first developed by a Dutchman, Simon Stevin, in 1589. He helped advance the mathematical sciences by replacing the cumbersome fractions, for instance, 1/2, with decimal fractions, for example, 0.5.

What Should be Taught: Muslim mathematicians were the first to utilize decimals instead of fractions on a large scale. Al-Kashi's book, Key to Arithmetic, was written at the beginning of the 15th century and was the stimulus for the systematic application of decimals to whole numbers and fractions thereof. It is highly probably that Stevin imported the idea to Europe from al-Kashi's work.

What is Taught: The first man to utilize algebraic symbols was the French mathematician, Francois Vieta. In 1591, he wrote an algebra book describing equations with letters such as the now familiar x and y's. Asimov says that this discovery had an impact similar to the progression from Roman numerals to Arabic numbers.

What Should be Taught: Muslim mathematicians, the inventors of algebra, introduced the concept of using letters for unknown variables in equations as early as the 9th century A.D. Through this system, they solved a variety of complex equations, including quadratic and cubic equations. They used symbols to develop and perfect the binomial theorem.

What is Taught: The difficult cubic equations (x to the third power) remained unsolved until the 16th century when Niccolo Tartaglia, an Italian mathematician, solved them.

What Should be Taught: Cubic equations as well as numerous equations of even higher degrees were solved with ease by Muslim mathematicians as early as the 10th century.

What is Taught: The concept that numbers could be less than zero, that is negative numbers, was unknown until 1545 when Geronimo Cardano introduced the idea.

What Should he Taught: Muslim mathematicians introduced negative numbers for use in a variety of arithmetic functions at least 400 years prior to Cardano.

What is Taught: In 1614, John Napier invented logarithms and logarithmic tables.

What Should be Taught: Muslim mathematicians invented logarithms and produced logarithmic tables several centuries prior. Such tables were common in the Islamic world as early as the 13th century.

What is Taught: During the 17th century Rene Descartes made the discovery that algebra could be used to solve geometrical problems. By this, he greatly advanced the science of geometry.

What Should be Taught: Mathematicians of the Islamic Empire accomplished precisely this as early as the 9th century A.D. Thabit bin Qurrah was the first to do so, and he was followed by Abu'l Wafa, whose 10th century book utilized algebra to advance geometry into an exact and simplified science.

What is Taught: Isaac Newton, during the 17th century, developed the binomial theorem, which is a crucial component for the study of algebra.

What Should be Taught: Hundreds of Muslim mathematicians utilized and perfected the binomial theorem. They initiated its use for the systematic solution of algebraic problems during the 10th century (or prior).

What is Taught: No improvement had been made in the astronomy of the ancients during the Middle Ages regarding the motion of planets until the 13th century. Then Alphonso the Wise of Castile (Middle Spain) invented the Aphonsine Tables, which were more accurate than Ptolemy's.

What Should be Taught: Muslim astronomers made numerous improvements upon Ptolemy's findings as early as the 9th century. They were the first astronomers to dispute his archaic ideas. In their critic of the Greeks, they synthesized proof that the sun is the center of the solar system and that the orbits of the earth and other planets might be elliptical. They produced hundreds of highly accurate astronomical tables and star charts. Many of their calculations are so precise that they are regarded as contemporary. The AlphonsineTables are little more than copies of works on astronomy transmitted to Europe via Islamic Spain, i.e. the Toledo Tables.

What is Taught: The English scholar Roger Bacon (d. 1292) first mentioned glass lenses for improving vision. At nearly the same time, eyeglasses could be found in use both in China and Europe.

What Should be Taught: Ibn Firnas of Islamic Spain invented eyeglasses during the 9th century, and they were manufactured and sold throughout Spain for over two centuries. Any mention of eyeglasses by Roger Bacon was simply a regurgitation of the work of al-Haytham (d. 1039), whose research Bacon frequently referred to.

What is Taught: Gunpowder was developed in the Western world as a result of Roger Bacon's work in 1242. The first usage of gunpowder in weapons was when the Chinese fired it from bamboo shoots in attempt to frighten Mongol conquerors. They produced it by adding sulfur and charcoal to saltpeter.

What Should be Taught: The Chinese developed saltpeter for use in fireworks and knew of no tactical military use for gunpowder, nor did they invent its formula. Research by Reinuad and Fave have clearly shown that gunpowder was formulated initially by Muslim chemists. Further, these historians claim that the Muslims developed the first fire-arms. Notably, Muslim armies used grenades and other weapons in their defence of Algericus against the Franks during the 14th century. Jean Mathes indicates that the Muslim rulers had stock-piles of grenades, rifles, crude cannons, incendiary devices, sulfur bombs and pistols decades before such devices were used in Europe. The first mention of a cannon was in an Arabic text around 1300 A.D. Roger Bacon learned of the formula for gunpowder from Latin translations of Arabic books. He brought forth nothing original in this regard.

What is Taught: The compass was invented by the Chinese who may have been the first to use it for navigational purposes sometime between 1000 and 1100 A.D. The earliest reference to its use in navigation was by the Englishman, Alexander Neckam (1157-1217).

What Should be Taught: Muslim geographers and navigators learned of the magnetic needle, possibly from the Chinese, and were the first to use magnetic needles in navigation. They invented the compass and passed the knowledge of its use in navigation to the West. European navigators relied on Muslim pilots and their instruments when exploring unknown territories. Gustav Le Bon claims that the magnetic needle and compass were entirely invented by the Muslims and that the Chinese had little to do with it. Neckam, as well as the Chinese, probably learned of it from Muslim traders. It is noteworthy that the Chinese improved their navigational expertise after they began interacting with the Muslims during the 8th century.

What is Taught: The first man to classify the races was the German Johann F. Blumenbach, who divided mankind into white, yellow, brown, black and red peoples.

What Should be Taught: Muslim scholars of the 9th through 14th centuries invented the science of ethnography. A number of Muslim geographers classified the races, writing detailed explanations of their unique cultural habits and physical appearances. They wrote thousands of pages on this subject. Blumenbach's works were insignificant in comparison.

What is Taught: The science of geography was revived during the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries when the ancient works of Ptolemy were discovered. The Crusades and the Portuguese/Spanish expeditions also contributed to this reawakening. The first scientifically-based treatise on geography were produced during this period by Europe's scholars.

What Should be Taught: Muslim geographers produced untold volumes of books on the geography of Africa, Asia, India, China and the Indies during the 8th through 15th centuries. These writings included the world's first geographical encyclopedias, almanacs and road maps. Ibn Battutah's 14th century masterpieces provide a detailed view of the geography of the ancient world. The Muslim geographers of the 10th through 15th centuries far exceeded the output by Europeans regarding the geography of these regions well into the 18th century. The Crusades led to the destruction of educational institutions, their scholars and books. They brought nothing substantive regarding geography to the Western world.

What is Taught: Robert Boyle, in the 17th century, originated the science of chemistry.

What Should be Taught: A variety of Muslim chemists, including ar-Razi, al-Jabr, al-Biruni and al-Kindi, performed scientific experiments in chemistry some 700 years prior to Boyle. Durant writes that the Muslims introduced the experimental method to this science. Humboldt regards the Muslims as the founders of chemistry.

What is Taught: Leonardo da Vinci (16th century) fathered the science of geology when he noted that fossils found on mountains indicated a watery origin of the earth.

What Should be Taught: Al-Biruni (1lth century) made precisely this observation and added much to it, including a huge book on geology, hundreds of years before Da Vinci was born. Ibn Sina noted this as well (see pages 100-101). it is probable that Da Vinci first learned of this concept from Latin translations of Islamic books. He added nothing original to their findings.

What is Taught: The first mention of the geological formation of valleys was in 1756, when Nicolas Desmarest proposed that they were formed over a long periods of time by streams.

What Should be Taught: Ibn Sina and al-Biruni made precisely this discovery during the 11th century (see pages 102 and 103), fully 700 years prior to Desmarest.

What is Taught: Galileo (17th century) was the world's first great experimenter.

What Should be Taught: Al-Biruni (d. 1050) was the world's first great experimenter. He wrote over 200 books, many of which discuss his precise experiments. His literary output in the sciences amounts to some 13,000 pages, far exceeding that written by Galileo or, for that matter, Galileo and Newton combined.

What is Taught: The Italian Giovanni Morgagni is regarded as the father of pathology because he was the first to correctly describe the nature of disease.

What Should be Taught: Islam's surgeons were the first pathologists. They fully realized the nature of disease and described a variety of diseases to modern detail. Ibn Zuhr correctly described the nature of pleurisy, tuberculosis and pericarditis. Az-Zahrawi accurately documented the pathology of hydrocephalus (water on the brain) and other congenital diseases. Ibn al-Quff and Ibn an-Nafs gave perfect descriptions of the diseases of circulation. Other Muslim surgeons gave the first accurate descriptions of certain malignancies, including cancer of the stomach, bowel and esophagus. These surgeons were the originators of pathology, not Giovanni Morgagni.

What is Taught: Paul Ehrlich (19th century) is the originator of drug chemotherapy, that is the use of specific drugs to kill microbes.

What Should be Taught: Muslim physicians used a variety of specific substances to destroy microbes. They applied sulfur topically specifically to kill the scabies mite. Ar-Razi (10th century) used mercurial compounds as topical antiseptics.

What is Taught: Purified alcohol, made through distillation, was first produced by Arnau de Villanova, a Spanish alchemist, in 1300 A.D.

What Should be Taught: Numerous Muslim chemists produced medicinal-grade alcohol through distillation as early as the 10th century and manufactured on a large scale the first distillation devices for use in chemistry. They used alcohol as a solvent and antiseptic.

What is Taught: The first surgery performed under inhalation anesthesia was conducted by C.W. Long, an American, in 1845.

What Should be Taught: Six hundred years prior to Long, Islamic Spain's Az-Zahrawi and Ibn Zuhr, among other Muslim surgeons, performed hundreds of surgeries under inhalation anesthesia with the use of narcotic-soaked sponges which were placed over the face.

What is Taught: During the 16th century Paracelsus invented the use of opium extracts for anesthesia.

What Should be Taught: Muslim physicians introduced the anesthetic value of opium derivatives during the Middle Ages. Opium was originally used as an anesthetic agent by the Greeks. Paracelus was a student of Ibn Sina's works from which it is almost assured that he derived this idea.

What is Taught: Modern anesthesia was invented in the 19th century by Humphrey Davy and Horace Wells.

What Should be Taught: Modern anesthesia was discovered, mastered and perfected by Muslim anesthetists 900 years before the advent of Davy and Wells. They utilized oral as well as inhalant anesthetics.

What is Taught: The concept of quarantine was first developed in 1403. In Venice, a law was passed preventing strangers from entering the city until a certain waiting period had passed. If, by then, no sign of illness could be found, they were allowed in.

What Should be Taught: The concept of quarantine was first introduced in the 7th century A.D. by the prophet Muhammad, who wisely warned against entering or leaving a region suffering from plague. As early as the 10th century, Muslim physicians innovated the use of isolation wards for individuals suffering with communicable diseases.

What is Taught: The scientific use of antiseptics in surgery was discovered by the British surgeon Joseph Lister in 1865.

What Should be Taught: As early as the 10th century, Muslim physicians and surgeons were applying purified alcohol to wounds as an antiseptic agent. Surgeons in Islamic Spain utilized special methods for maintaining antisepsis prior to and during surgery. They also originated specific protocols for maintaining hygiene during the post-operative period. Their success rate was so high that dignitaries throughout Europe came to Cordova, Spain, to be treated at what was comparably the "Mayo Clinic" of the Middle Ages.

What is Taught: In 1545, the scientific use of surgery was advanced by the French surgeon Ambroise Pare. Prior to him, surgeons attempted to stop bleeding through the gruesome procedure of searing the wound with boiling oil. Pare stopped the use of boiling oils and began ligating arteries. He is considered the "father of rational surgery." Pare was also one of the first Europeans to condemn such grotesque "surgical" procedures as trepanning (see reference #6, pg. 110).

What Should be Taught: Islamic Spain's illustrious surgeon, az-Zahrawi (d. 1013), began ligating arteries with fine sutures over 500 years prior to Pare. He perfected the use of Catgut, that is suture made from animal intestines. Additionally, he instituted the use of cotton plus wax to plug bleeding wounds. The full details of his works were made available to Europeans through Latin translations.

Despite this, barbers and herdsmen continued be the primary individuals practicing the "art" of surgery for nearly six centuries after az-Zahrawi's death. Pare himself was a barber, albeit more skilled and conscientious than the average ones.

Included in az-Zahrawi's legacy are dozens of books. His most famous work is a 30 volume treatise on medicine and surgery. His books contain sections on preventive medicine, nutrition, cosmetics, drug therapy, surgical technique, anesthesia, pre and post-operative care as well as drawings of some 200 surgical devices, many of which he invented. The refined and scholarly az-Zahrawi must be regarded as the father and founder of rational surgery, not the uneducated Pare.

What is Taught: William Harvey, during the early 17th century, discovered that blood circulates. He was the first to correctly describe the function of the heart, arteries and veins. Rome's Galen had presented erroneous ideas regarding the circulatory system, and Harvey was the first to determine that blood is pumped throughout the body via the action of the heart and the venous valves. Therefore, he is regarded as the founder of human physiology.

What Should be Taught: In the 10th century, Islam's ar-Razi wrote an in-depth treatise on the venous system, accurately describing the function of the veins and their valves. Ibn an-Nafs and Ibn al-Quff (13th century) provided full documentation that the blood circulates and correctly described the physiology of the heart and the function of its valves 300 years before Harvey. William Harvey was a graduate of Italy's famous Padua University at a time when the majority of its curriculum was based upon Ibn Sina's and ar-Razi's textbooks.

What is Taught: The first pharmacopeia (book of medicines) was published by a German scholar in 1542. According to World Book Encyclopedia, the science of pharmacology was begun in the 1900's as an off-shoot of chemistry due to the analysis of crude plant materials. Chemists, after isolating the active ingredients from plants, realized their medicinal value.

What Should be Taught: According to the eminent scholar of Arab history, Phillip Hitti, the Muslims, not the Greeks or Europeans, wrote the first "modern" pharmacopeia. The science of pharmacology was originated by Muslim physicians during the 9th century. They developed it into a highly refined and exact science. Muslim chemists, pharmacists and physicians produced thousands of drugs and/or crude herbal extracts one thousand years prior to the supposed birth of pharmacology. During the 14th century Ibn Baytar wrote a monumental pharmacopeia listing some 1400 different drugs. Hundreds of other pharmacopeias were published during the Islamic Era. It is likely that the German work is an offshoot of that by Ibn Baytar, which was widely circulated in Europe.

What is Taught: The discovery of the scientific use of drugs in the treatment of specific diseases was made by Paracelsus, the Swiss-born physician, during the 16th century. He is also credited with being the first to use practical experience as a determining factor in the treatment of patients rather than relying exclusively on the works of the ancients.

What Should be Taught: Ar-Razi, Ibn Sina, al-Kindi, Ibn Rushd, az-Zahrawi, Ibn Zuhr, Ibn Baytar, Ibn al-Jazzar, Ibn Juljul, Ibn al-Quff, Ibn an-Nafs, al-Biruni, Ibn Sahl and hundreds of other Muslim physicians mastered the science of drug therapy for the treatment of specific symptoms and diseases. In fact, this concept was entirely their invention. The word "drug" is derived from Arabic. Their use of practical experience and careful observation was extensive.

Muslim physicians were the first to criticize ancient medical theories and practices. Ar-Razi devoted an entire book as a critique of Galen's anatomy. The works of Paracelsus are insignificant compared to the vast volumes of medical writings and original findings accomplished by the medical giants of Islam.

What is Taught: The first sound approach to the treatment of disease was made by a German, Johann Weger, in the 1500's.

What Should be Taught: Harvard's George Sarton says that modern medicine is entirely an Islamic development and that Setting the Record Straight the Muslim physicians of the 9th through 12th centuries were precise, scientific, rational and sound in their approach. Johann Weger was among thousands of Europeans physicians during the 15th through 17th centuries who were taught the medicine of ar-Razi and Ibn Sina. He contributed nothing original.

What is Taught: Medical treatment for the insane was modernized by Philippe Pinel when in 1793 he operated France's first insane asylum.

What Should be Taught: As early as the 1lth century, Islamic hospitals maintained special wards for the insane. They treated them kindly and presumed their disease was real at a time when the insane were routinely burned alive in Europe as witches and sorcerers. A curative approach was taken for mental illness and, for the first time in history, the mentally ill were treated with supportive care, drugs and psychotherapy. Every major Islamic city maintained an insane asylum where patients were treated at no charge. In fact, the Islamic system for the treatment of the insane excels in comparison to the current model, as it was more humane and was highly effective as well.

What is Taught: Kerosine was first produced by the an Englishman, Abraham Gesner, in 1853. He distilled it from asphalt.

What Should be Taught: Muslim chemists produced kerosine as a distillate from petroleum products over 1,000 years prior to Gesner (see Encyclopaedia Britannica under the heading, Petroleum).

Excerpted from: Appendix B of 'The Miracle of Islamic Science' by Dr. K. Ajram, Copyright © 1992

A common argument technique, if one could call it that, from Muslim apologists, advocates, or what have you, is mass citation, mass reproduction of sources, 'authorities' presumably; the citations tend to be viewed as unimpeachable arguments from authority, words true because the right person wrote them or spoke them.

Does the divine command mentality of Islam, the idea that the truth issues directly from Allah through the Prophet and is true because Allah says so, teach the mind a very bad habit--namely, that the truth is something one receives and quotes not something one discovers with initiative, critical thought, experimentation, and argument? In Islam understanding is something that comes with submission to the holy word of Allah, to the wisdom of the Qur'an, and since the Qur'an is cryptic one needs the Sunnah to tell you about all the little details, which one must have. If what is true is true because Allah says so, and for no other reason, then one must know what Allah says. And the Prophet is the only link to Allah and the final truth. But understanding is not something one must grasp with your own mind, with your own imagination, with questions, with critical thought that seeks out contradictions, puzzles, evidence. Hence, understanding is not something one formulates in words and thoughts of your own. No, the truth in Islam is very different. It is given to the believer by Allah through the Prophet, and asks merely one act in return: submission.

JTF, instead of filling this blog with nothing talk why dont you answer what I posted? You are oh so critical after all.

p.s
do you really want to tell me
that all the hadith and Koran verses
cited here are cited from memory?

Looks like we have here a real dyed in the wool Da'awa-doctor, a trained expert in disinformation; a 'King-Rat' in order to spread the poison of Islam:

We've had a few of "Karimguy's" here on JW/DW all of them quite inventive with the never-ending equivalencing, relativizing, dragging everything into the morass of the Islamic cesspool.

When all fails, they lie straight into your face in spite of the evidence: 'Mo did not marry Aiisha when she was 6,' 7/7 didn't happen, Bali 1 and Bali 2 never happened, 9/11 never happened, Beslan, Madrid, Moskow: The unending string of atrocities that must be somehow justified, against infidels and Jews, against 'oppression' in Thailand, the Philippines, in Chechnya, Bosnia, Kosovo, the murderous raids in Sulawesi and the Molucca-islands, in Nigeria: Everywhere where the poison of Islam was allowed to spread you have Jihad, for Jihad is the central duty of every Mohammedan and "the believers will kill and be killed' in accordance with the Koran.

Mohammedans lie even when they pray. War is deception, and to prey on infidels is permitted in order to advance Islam.

The more one knows about this cult, the less one is inclined to make 'dialogue' with anyone in the hood, for it is a criminal cult out for our destruction, and anything other than internment and deportations is a waste of time and resources.

Internment and deportations NOW!

What is taught: History
What you would have taught: Taqqiya.

No sale, kareem.

Karim, how about answering the questions I posted above (1:56 PM)?

MSM, you can only die once for your freedoms or do you believe that you are so superior that you shouldn’t have to sacrifice for your freedoms or are you just cowards.

Islam will be defeated across the globe, but the MSM needs to pull it collective head out of its many nether regions and come to grip that "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" comes with payments due.

Stay silent and you will die the same as if you stood on the roof top and screamed that Mohamed was a homosexual child rapist.

Freedoms are not free they are earned by the blood of those that have fought and died for these freedoms and those that will fight and die for these freedoms.

Our condolences to the young man's family. Rest assured that he is in the presence of God.

These atrocities will be rectified soon.

The war with Islam is near.

Prepare, be armed be ready.

The Texican.

Freedom. The only choice at any cost.

karim-

History is a double-edged sword. It can be used to defend the helpless or prop up the destroyers of the helpless.

We are discussing the present, not the dead past.
As your prophet Issa [Jesus] said (although Mohmmad censored it from his "holy" book):
"Let the dead bury the dead."

In laymen's language, look to what is going on around you. Now. Help those in this time. And answer this moment's problems with meaningful, current solutions.

Islam is terrorizing the world through its extremists.

There are a self-proclaimed billion, plus, of them, so to worry about 10 or 20 millions Jewish people, worldwide, is to misunderstand the stakes.
The Jews are not attacking people from Fez to Jakarta, or Amsterdam to New York City.

The Mormons aren't. The Sikhs aren't. The Bahais aren't. The Buddhists aren't. The Shintoists aren't. The Animists of Africa aren't. The Moonies aren't. The Jains aren't. The Confucians aren't. The Hindus aren't.

The Muslims are.

We are worried about them. Not the Jews. Or any other faith's microscopic extremists (the three "Christian" nutjobs who shot abortion doctors or blew up a gay bar or bombed a family planning clinic, and who were roundly condemned by all civilized people in the West, Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc., then hunted down, caught, tried and imprisoned.)

I see no Muslims trying to restrain their extremists.

I see nothing but meaningless excuses for their "understandable" acts.

We no longer buy it.

Control your militant Muslim fanatical brothers and sisters or they will end up destroying your faith.

Not that I want it preserved as it is, but it would be easier for all to have Muslims take a hand in reforming their own creed and gaining some much-needed humane enlightenment.

Then begin to dissolve the easily-turned-toward-evil, and devilishly literalistic apsects of the hate-filled Koranic suras. As the Christians and Hebrews did through the Reformation, Renaissance and Age of Reason, with their own Biblically bloodthirsty verses. They gave up earthly power.

Muslims will either adapt to the human world of the 21st century, meaning tolerance of dissent within and without of Islam, or it will end up in the dustbin of history with the other failed death cults.

It all begins with a sense of the absurd, which leads to rational skepticism, serious inquiry into comparative religion, and a growing sense of humility about the weight given to any human insights into the ineffable mind of "God".

And maybe actually learning to live on this world- and love this life- without wanting it to be contorted into a religious concentration camp merely to satisfy a dead man's dogma.

The thing that refutes the Koran for me is that there is not one shred of humor in it.

That makes it a joke.

Karim, you still here old chap? Nothing like wasting a day battling the infidels heh Karim?

"...all the hadith and Koran verses
cited here are cited from memory?

All this proves is that your'e the mobot I thought you were when you came to the board this morning. And to watch you beat your head on the side of this sites wall (figuratively speaking of course)is really rather sad. You've been brainwashed Karim, pure and simple. Maybe you should go to Ali Sina's site. Tell doctor Sina you have these symtoms... http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?ln=nl&fuseaction=artikelen.details&achtergrond_id=8350&CFID=2735238&CFTOKEN=57221010

Posted by: karimguy

"Case proved"

Blind, fanatical, dissembling, reptilian, amoral, idiotic, and loathsome -- you're an impressive specimen of Islam.

But do keep posting.

New visitors to the site will be enlightened on seeing the Muslim mind in action.

"No this is really sick. I have been censored for the third time."

Get used to it. Censorship is an Islamic value.

k,i'm not gunna say for a fact,who invented what,But if the muslims invented all that stuff,why are they so ass-backwards now?

"At least three major publishers whose textbooks are under consideration for adoption by the State of California – Ballard & Tighe, Houghton-Mifflin, and McDougal Littell – have enlisted Shabbir Mansuri, Founding Director of Council on Islamic Education (CIE), as content consultant. Publishers shared their pre-print edition of textbooks with CIE, thereby facilitating the sanitizing of Islam before the textbooks made it to the public domain. But that was apparently not enough for CIE; they have submitted an additional set of edits that would help seventh grade Californians understand their respective religions from an Islamic perspective."
-- from a posting above

Note the publishers listed. Those who are teachers may decide to deliberately NOT recommend certain texts by certain publishers -- all sorts of texts. Choose other texts, by other publishers. A point can be made. You might even hint at what that point is.

Dr. K. Ajram, that great historian of science and mathematics, who lives in the vibrant metropolis of Cedar Rapids, Iowa, teaching, studying with, uh, we know not whom, the author of that other monumental Islamic study The Incredible Qur'an: 500 Multiple-Choice Short Answer and True - False Questions (and this is no joke. He actually wrote a book with this title.) makes so many specious claims in his book The Miracle of Science, one can only rationally respond, without wasting enormous amounts of time, that he has the burden of proving just one. Publish it in a good journal, and then lets get on with scholarly discussion. The claim about Greek mathematics alone is horribly complex and should be treated on its own with careful attention to the historical record, which is obviously not one of Dr. Ajram's strong points: we need to look at not just the written record, much of which was destroyed, but Greek inventions, architecture and measurement techniques which might imply certain things about mathematical and geometrical knowledge. But, instead, let's just look up a sentence in an Encyclopedia that sounds impressive, the 'received wisdom' (and there is no such thing in the study of Greek mathematics) and show how it is false. Case proved. What absolute nonsense.

Or, better still, let's give in; in order not to irritate Islamic chauvinism, in order to avoid contradicting Islamic claims to its glorious past that has been usurped, destroyed by Infidel violence and oppression, in order to pay homage to the ideal of Islamic victimhood, and, most especially, in order not to prompt the wrath of Allah (and we all know where that can lead) let's just take his word for it, shall we? Case proved. And get on with it. Then Dr. Ajram can write another book: The Incredible Miracle of Muslim Science: 500 Multiple-Choice Short Answer and True-False Questions. Coming soon to your local community college. And that will constitute once and for all the true history of mathematics and science from a disinterested, unbiased scholar of the greatest learning and intellect.

The assertions by this Karim chappie that the Mohammedans invented all the stuff he lists needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. The techniques used in the recension of ancient manuscripts are, and have always been, a matter of great debate amongst scholars of all religious persuasions at all times. Whilst he could claim, based upon an examination of many ancient sources, that the Mohammedan scholars of past ages maybe invented or discovered all those things many scholars, both in the Mohammedan world and in the civilised world, would argue with him. Many Chinese scholars would, likewise, disagree with him as it could be argued that many of the inventions and discoveries he claims for Mohammedan scholars actually appear in much earlier Chinese manuscripts (and this would then account for the inventions appearing in the Middle East before Europe as the great trade routes with China have always passed through the Middle East - that is to say that cultural diffusion would operate along the trade routes). There are also many scholars who claim that many of the inventions and discoveries listed by this Karim fellow arose from the precursor so called Armenian civilisations (approximately 100BC to 500AD) and there are certainly early manuscripts that could be used to substantiate this. There are also some experts who would argue that a substantial number of the inventions that the Karim wallah is so anxious to ascribe to Mohammedan learning already existed in the precursor Persian and Roman Empires and, again, there is some documentary evidence to support that contention.

As I said at the start of this little monologue, the techniques which one needs to employ in recensing an ancient manuscript are open to much debate. When one looks at documents that are just one or two hundred years old it can be difficult, sometimes, to be certain that one has grasped the full, or true, meaning of the writing if for no other reasons than that the cultural milieu was different from that of the present and that use of language can change and the precise meaning of words can shift over even a short time. Imagine, therefore, the enormous difficulty in deciding the precise meaning or accuracy of a manuscript (or, much more commonly, a tiny fragment of a manuscript) which is maybe 1,000 or 1,300 years old, or 2,000 or 2,500 years old. The records may be faded, incomplete, or written in a dead language or dialect, and even when written in a language that is known today they may be written in an unknown or unfamiliar script, never mind that the meaning of the words, symbols or drawings may, as I stated a sentence or two ago, have shifted in the interim.

In conclusion, Karim-bey is academically on dangerous ground when he asserts that the inventions and discoveries on his list are exclusively and firstly the work of Mohammedan scholars. Other, equally reputable, claims can be made by contemporary and earlier civilisations, as, today, we make claims for our European based civilisations. It isn't even SAFELY provable that anybody before the European civilisations even knew about any of the things on this list although my opinion is that a least some of them were known in the early Mohammedan world, and probably all of them were known about in various corners of the ancient world, but whether-or-not they were known about through discovery or by cultural diffusion is something that no amount of trawling through the surviving records will ever prove. For any one civilisation or religious group to claim all of that list as their own is just childish boasting and certainly has no basis in rigorous academic fact or argument.

France needs to execute the 13 to show that they aren't going to put up with these Muslim attacks. It would also be helpful to execute the Imans who encouraged the attack.

LEFT BEHIND

The Muslim world is getting left behind and they don't like it. Take away their oil reserves and what
do they have? They once dominated the known world. Now, with the exception of their oil, they are
completely unimportant --more to the point, powerless -- in the modern world. They simply don't
have the skills and the culture to compete in it. They gave the world mathematics, and some of the
most wonderful architecture -- so long as the architecture is based on one stone laid on top of another.
All the skyscrapers in the Arab world were designed and built by infidels. And their airplanes were
designed and built by infidels and their telephone systems .... even their sewers. And they need
infidels to keep everything running. This isn't the way Muhammad told them it was going to be.
He promised them, in the Koran, that they would control the world. And they know this because
higher education in the Arab world consists mostly of men -- only men --memorizing the Koran.
And since nothing is their fault, it has to be someone else's -- the infidels.
The Muslim world is four hundred -- maybe five hundred -- years behind the western world. And
adding to that problem is their religious hierarchy who likes it that way. People in power are never
in favor of a system change that will see their power diminished.
They have -- as we see examples of just about every day -- thousands, tens of thousands, perhaps
hundreds of thousands of faithful who are perfectly willing to sacrifice their lives because the mullahs
tell them it will please God and guarantee them swift passage to heaven. And this makes for a
dangerous situation for western society.

Extract from "By Order of the President" W.E.B. Griffin 2004

No cases are proven. This a battle of wills that won't be settled by reasoned debate. Instead, ask yourself some questions. Starting with: "What will my day be like as a member of the Ummah?"

I can can summarize my own impressions; I'm sure you have yours.

Basic:

No bacon. No beaches. No babes. No church bells on a sunny morning in April.

Practical:

No banks. No letters to the editor. No elections. No turning back. Listen to the muezzin. Watch the sun for times of prayer. Work when you're not praying. Pray when your not working. Learn Arabic. Ask Imam about the smallest detail of your life. Make Wudu and Ghuzal. Submit.

Western Heritage:

No art. No science. No literature. Except in the service of Allah. No tragedy. No comedy. Goodbye Plutarch, Bocaccio, Dante, and Shakespeare. Goodbye Caesar. Goodbye Constantine. Goodbye Augustine and Aquinus. Goodbye Washington, Wellington, Lincoln and Patton.

Cosmic:

No questions that can't be answered by Imam. Defend the prophet. Do Jihad.

Emerson

Do anyone remembers the book that came out about ten years ago, called, " How The Irish Saved Civilization " by Thomas Cahill? It goes to show that even there was still a lot going on in the West even during the "Dark Ages ".

bigcatgirl13106 -

You'll find a streaming audio of the book at:

http://www.salon.com/audio/2000/10/05/cahill/

and lots of good sites on him if you Google Thomas Cahill.

Thank you for your URL posting.

Mention by bigcatgirl13106 of Thomas Cahill put me in mind of one of his other books - "The Gifts of the Jews: How a Tribe of Desert Nomads Change the Way Everyone Thinks and Feels." Well worth a read.

One can find a good discussion of this book at:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/gergen/july98/cahill_7-23.html

Enjoy.

So Imperialistic Islam must be opposed until they wither become civilized enough to restrain their own maniacs, or are forcibly sequestered in Mecca, there to ponder their delusions and repent for their tedious regurgitation of cosmic arrogance.
A holy man with no sense of humor is a devil.
Time to confiscate their pitchforks.
Posted by: profitsbeard at February 19, 2006 01:21 PM

Profitsbeard, even if you are an agnostic you state it very well.

Imperialistic Islam will not become civilized until it is utterly defeated as was Germany and Japan.

Islam truely believes that it can conquer the world and will war on western civilization.

Prepare, be armed be ready.

The Texican.

Freedom. The only choice at any cost.

Sorry for the oversight; this thread needs to come back to its source:

The poor S.O.B. buthered in France by the Ummah:

Cut down the last tree concealing the last Jew. Take him, torture and burn him. Then rape his wife. This after Friday prayers.

Enjoy your day, Allah welcomes you.

Emerson

I mean butchered.

Cest la vie.

Emerson

Quite right Emerson Twain, let us remember Ilan Halimi and the appalling way he died at the hands of those satanists.

Although we are not the prescribed mourners I think we should cover our heads and read the Kaddish quietly in his memory:

Magnified and sanctified be God's great name in the world which He has created according to His will. May He establish His kingdom soon, in our lifetime. Let us say: Amen.
May His great name be praised to all eternity.
Hallowed and honored, extolled and exalted, adored and acclaimed be the name of the Holy One, though He is above all the praises, hymns, and songs of adoration which men can utter. Let us say: Amen.
May God grant abundant peace and life to us and to all Israel. Let us say: Amen.
May He who ordains harmony in the universe grant peace to us and to all Israel. Let us say: Amen.

Amen.

Emerson

"They gave the world mathematics, and some of the
most wonderful architecture..."
-- from a posting above, conceding too much

Mathematics? Are the Greeks and Hiindus to be overlooked? What are the great achievements of Muslim mathematicians? Other than al-Khwarizmi, name one.

"Most wonderful architecture" -- based on the Byzantine squinch, and other elements taken over from Byzantine architects, who in any case continued to be employed, just as Christian workmen continued to be employed (or, later, Hindu workmen) so often to build those supposedly "Islamic" buildings. The more one looks into it, the more underwhelming the achievements of Islamic civilization, as opposed to those who were not Muslims or, if converts, only a gneeation or two away from other influences, appear to be.

Out of laziness people refer to the greatness of Islamic civilization, and of its supposed achievements. They repeat what they have been told. In the same way, they repeat cliches about the "Dark Ages" and ignore the last half-century of scholarship, which has demonstrated how un-dark those "Dark Ages" were. Why should the new understanding of, and appreciation for, what those Middle Ages were actually like(see Madeleine Reynoud, "Those Terrible Middle Ages") not make it out of the monographs into the minds of men -- men who can then resist the nonsense, still repeated by Bernard Lewis among others, that in the year 1000 a comparison between Islam and Europe showed, as Lewis loves to repeat, that "Islamic civilzation was more advanced in every respect, etc." No it wasn't.

Lewis himself might start with Henri Focillon's "The Year 1000 A.D." published almost three-quarters of a century ago, and work his way forward. He might then stop making these cheap, and inaccurate, comparisons at Europe's expense. All he does is reflect the fact that he stopped following developments in European medieval history a long time ago, and has apparently not seent the need to delve into more recent literature, if he insists on making such pronouncements.

Of course, he also feels he must throw a sop to the Muslims in his audiences -- and the sop has to do with achievements, both exaggerated and -- no one should forget -- that date back to a thousand years ago.

What group of people, other than Muslims, keep harping on, and keep expecting everyone else to harp on, vague "achievements" that are at least a thousand years old, if we were to concede their existence at all?

We should always be eager to ask, when we are asked to ignore that thousand-year gap -- how embarrassing -- in the resume of Islam, one question:

What Have You Done For Me Lately?

Wow. All of you JW regulars- Hugh, Rebecca, shinoliite, the crusaders William and Isabella, profitsbeard and the rest of you - your comments tonight make me feel almost hopeful. I've been following this story, and I'm just heartbroken for his family. You've all said everything which needed saying to karim, and very eloquently, too.

As for Ilan Halimi a'h", I pray that his family will someday find solace.

Hashem yinkom damo

Posted above by Certiorari

"It isn't even SAFELY provable that anybody before the European civilisations even knew about any of the things on this list although my opinion is that a least some of them were known in the early Mohammedan world, and probably all of them were known about in various corners of the ancient world, but whether-or-not they were known about through discovery or by cultural diffusion is something that no amount of trawling through the surviving records will ever prove."

Further complicated by the muslim proclivity to usurp the inventions of superior cultures that it conquered, and then erase or rewrite the histories of those cultures. See Servier.

Posted by karimguy in response to the little article by Sebastian Rodriquez:

"need no more proof of your racism. This article is absolutely abhorrent. The thought that such flithy junk can be condoned is mind boggling."

Question... what offends you more, Rodriguez' description of European muslim culture or his description of the late European jewish culture?

Hugh,

Lately: weren't those pesky Armenians given what for by the Turks? Weren't the Greeks driven out of Anatolia in 1923? What about the accomplishments in the Punjab and Biafra?

Come now, Islam has many recent achievements.

Emerson

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

these are the cartoon's all muslims should see,scroll to the bottom of the page

Mr. Fitzgerald, Infidel33 -

I agree with you both. Lewis is unsound. Andre Servier was undoubtedly correct in many respects.

"Let love be without dissimulation. Hating that which is evil, cleaving to that which is good...Rejoicing in hope...Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil by good." Romans 12:9,12,21

"Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in iniguity, but rejoiceth with the truth...and now there remain faith, hope and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity." Corinthians 13:4-6,13

Libbys Mom,

Thank you for your kind words. You are an integral part of our defense, too, girlfriend. And this defense now has a mind and a life of it's own. We must never think that what the trolls here say is a foregone conclusion.

We have to remind ourselves, daily, hourly, maybe every minute if that's what it takes, that they lie. They lie to us and they lie to themselves. Our will is stronger than theirs. They seek to rule with evil. We must seek to stay free with truth and love. From what I've seen here, even when people get cranky, (and how can we help not getting cranky sometimes in this long and tedious war,) we do have hope, and we do have love. No matter what the people who are seeking to destroy us say.

In a thread that is supposed to be about a poor Jew murdered in the halal way by the sick Muzzies, we see the usual bs merchants like karimguy turning up. His point being that the white man is taking credit for the glories of Islamic "science". Speaking as an Indian I have news for you karimguy, if anything the West has been far too generous in crediting Arabs with the inventions and discoveries that more properly belong to the Indians chief among the decimal system of numbering.

Muslims who are hung up about their ranking in science would do well to go school and learn some real subjects like mathematics or physics instead of farting around with Koran competitions. If a Japanese or Chinese man were claim that his native culture encourages science, no one would have any quarrels since we all know of their industrial might and have seen great contributions from them to modern science.

The Muslims on the other hand are reduced to refering to some mathematician or optician from the 14th century to make up for their low self esteem. It is really pathetic and impresses no one since the entire Muslim world can disappear overnight with no one noticing their absence in science or engineering.

Texican-

Agnostic just means you're forced to learn all religions. Hardly a bad thing, except in the case of Islam... which is a bitter taste, and one hard to get out of the psyche.

I prefer a goblet of Bully Hill "Love My Goat" red wine and some Danish havarti to rinse the mental palate of the sour suras.

(And maybe re-reading some of Mark Twain's "Letters from the Earth" or the poems of Sappho. Or some LOUD Stevie Ray Vaughn.)

I guess I should be more specific and say "agnostic mystic", since I wouldn't dare deny anyone else's wisdom or enlightenment, as long as it doesn't involve cutting heads off for God or raping 9 year olds.

I'm walking the Long Path, endlessly amazed at the infinitely miraculous world, whatever its sublime Source.

And will unite with all of like minds to defend our right to enjoy it and discover it forever-without sanctified zombies trying to blind us and paralyze us along the way.

(That's why we invented the LAW rocket launcher for large obstructions and discreet ankle holsters for little nuisances.)

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

[I you wish peace, prepare for war.]

DennisW, I swear if i see you abuse the word pagan again ill hunt your family down and burn them at the stake reciting biblical verses cos im such a diehard christian fanatic.

what sort of a total pat robertson type would use 'pagan' as a derogatory term used by vile missionaries and their propaganda??

A hindu speaking

Thanx

Further proof (if any was needed) that the bulk of the muslim world is still several centuries behind the aztecs in terms of civilization.

Binding and killing a young jewish man by a group of koran-quoting people...

What do you expect from a religion based on the teachings of someone who stole local stories and twisted existing writings from other religions to form his brainwashed band of raping/pillaging thieves? His teachings condone raping, killing, abuse of women and non-believers...just about every criminal act other religions teach against. What kind of people follow teachings like this? Religion of peace? Give me a break...when are our leaders going to grow some balls and stand up to this mohammedan crusade against the west?

Get your voting pencil out ladies and gentlemen. And you better keep an eye on your local school boards. This is the breeding ground of this wahhabi-way.

soapsuds

An Arab and a Mohammean inventing Mathematics?

LOL!

When islam starts behaving with humanity,decency and goodness then I shall stop saying that islam is evil and must be illiminated from the world.

Profits Beard,

I like the way you think. I may not always agree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to say it as you have proven yourself a gentleman with a heart as well as a mind.

People, People !!! There is a person that could finally confirm Moahammed's acceptance of 9 year old virgins, to consumate for his religous ways......Who's residing in Bahrain at this moment? Does he know something we don't? Is he accepting the Muslim faith for his own personal urges?....Who can this be?....heeeee-heeeeee......Michael Jackson !!!

Karminguy said: "Cant we just agree on something, lets have a discussion without insult,threat or slander? Lets try that."

So, after his arguments are shown to be (1) diversionary, or (2) irrelevant, or (3) non-sensical, or (4) inaccurate, or (5) just plain wrong, he then says:

"Gary, just shut up please. I think what Amnesty and Human rights watch have to say ways, more then what an uneducated ignoramus like you thinks is the truth."

Just like in court. Have the reporter read back the transcript, and the hypocritical liar is exposed. Drop this muslim in the grease, and you can almost hear him sizzle.

Karim:

You have given us a long list of great islamic accomplishments. The references you cite as proof are impressive, and, if your statements are true, then we can all stand in awe at the scientific and medical accomplishments attributable to islam.

So, tell me: why in the hell is the islamic world so backward, ignorant, superstitious, poor, unhealthy, unsanitary, and uneducated (except for those who have been educated at Western universities with Western standards)?

Oh, and does your koran really tell you how to wipe your @ss with rocks? If so, is this a religious or scientific discovery worthy of adoption by the Western world?

Karim:

You have given us a long list of great islamic accomplishments. The references you cite as proof are impressive, and, if your statements are true, then we can all stand in awe at the scientific and medical accomplishments attributable to islam.

So, tell me: why in the hell is the islamic world so backward, ignorant, superstitious, poor, unhealthy, unsanitary, and uneducated (except for those who have been educated at Western universities with Western standards)?

Oh, and does your koran really tell you how to wipe your @ss with rocks? If so, is this a religious or scientific discovery worthy of adoption by the Western world?

Dudes,

I picked up the Human rights commission's annual report book for 2005 and there were ghastly errors on data so i wud not trust them at all when dealing with muslims for they seem to be affected with the 'both sides equal' mentality. Funny how a non political world body with such a noble mission wud become a leftist ragdoll.

karimguy is quite concerned about North Africans whom he views as deserving our sympathy, and moreover, as distinct from Jews, that is, he sees "North African" as a category distinct from Jews.
But the family name Halimi is in fact fairly common among Algerian Jews, that is, North African Jews. Now Jews were in North Africa before the Arab conquest. Jews from the island of Jerba [Djerba] say that their community was founded by refugees from the destruction of the First Temple by Nebuchadnezzar. Jews living in North Africa under Arab-Muslim rule were subjugated as dhimmis by the Muslim rulers. That's why the Jews generally welcomed the French conquest of Algeria. When Algeria got independence in 1962, the Arabs made it clear that they did not want the Jews to remain, although the Jews were in that country before the Arabs, as said above. That is, the Jews were more "North African" than the Arabs were. However, several atrocities committed by Arabs against Jews around the time of independence convinced the Jews that they had to get out. So they fled to France. Now, ironically, official France has encouraged Arab hatred of Jews by false reporting about Israel --such as the Muhammad al-Dura hoax-- and the Arabs, historically great oppressors of Jews in North Africa, resume their attacks on North African Jews living in France.

---now on the Arab origins of mathematics-- the ancient Egyptians, Phoenicians, and Babylonians were credited by various ancient Greek writers as having pioneered much of math. The Arabs today, since it is convenient for their narcissism, have coopted the ancient peoples that they submerged and suppressed and basically eliminated. The Arabs call those ancient peoples "Arabs" and take credit for their discoveries and inventions.

by the way, there was a Jewish protest march in Paris this past Sunday numbering from 5,000 to 10,000 according to what I was told by a participant. They were protestng against the murder of Ilan Halimi. One end of the march was the Place de la Republique. I also heard about incidents on the fringes of the march. Apparently, these were attacks or provocations by Muslim onlookers.

Eliyahu, taken your medicine yet? Good.
Now, to that first point you made. Actually, I am sorry. I didnt want to make a distinction. I also thought that his name sounded Arabic.To your second point Your racism is almost untolerable. It makes me sick to the stomach. Typical Zionist yadda dadda bullcrap. You are so nauseatingly arrogant that you cant even admitt that other people have identities to. Arabs? You mean Algerians, as in the natives of the land, meaning they have actually nothing to do with Arabs. They have been there just as long as the Jews, having been Jews; Christians and pagans before Islam. The only reason you dont admit it is because they are Muslim. How ridiculous is that. There is no such thing as "The Arabs". There are Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, Algerians, Tunesisians ecs. "The Arabs" is just a by product of Arab Nationalism. Even King Faisal refused to admitt that the Palestinians were Arabs. And yes, the Lebaneses Muslims and Christians are inheritors of the ancient Phoenicians, as well as the Iraqies, inheritors of the ancient Babylonians and Assyrians. The only difference?Many of them are Muslim and speak arabic. So what. It is historically factual that languages were often changed with conquest in the middle east. In the time of Jesus Aramic had overtaken hebrew and was the lingua francua of the Middle East having been the official Persian language of Empire. Are you so biased that you want to steal the peoples heritage? If Persians today spoke Arabic instead of Farsi you call also call them Arabs?
Even most Egyptians dont refer to themselves as Arabs. But in your racist imagination the only people to deserve a distinct ethnic category are ofcourse Jews. Has it ever occured to you that the distinction between Arab and Jew in the Middle East is quite artificial? Ethnically there is no different between the "two people". I never said anything about the inventors being Arab. I said Muslim. See where your stereotypes take you. Ibn Sina, Al Biruni and Khawarizmi came from Central Asia, what was then Persia.

"Now, ironically, official France has encouraged Arab hatred of Jews by false reporting about Israel --such as the Muhammad al-Dura hoax"

A hoax? So much for your empathy. Ok, lets assume that it was a hoax. There are still 900 other Palestinian minors who were savagely killed by Isreal, also hoaxes? I suppose Mohammad al Dura is
a hoax because his death appeared on television.
The other ones you dont have to excuse, you just couldnt care less.

I wonder what stunning "facts" Karim83 will tell us in his next posting.

Maybe he'll tell us Muslim astronauts landed on the Moon in 1269.

Or that Leonardo da Vinci was a Muslim cleric.

Or maybe Ayatollah Khomeini was a disc jockey, and Saddam Hussein cured the sick.

Any takers?

Oops, I should hava attributed the above to karimguy. Oh those Islamotrolls love taking similar names to established posters.

Spirit, are you always so funny when you have nothing
good to say?

karim83 calls me arrogant. Then he shows his own arrogance which I am unable to attain. Typical Arab/Muslim projection. He talks about identities that I allegedly don't recognize. In fact, the Arab conquerors wiped out ancient ethnic identities in the Middle East. But what is karim's identity?? Is he an Arab or maybe a "leftist" convert who started out as an ignoramus and let his head be filled with "leftist" lies in favor of Arab nationalism and the PLO. Then maybe he got religion and filled his tank with Muslim ideology. I don't know the answer as to whether he's a born Muslim or a "leftist" convert. So let's take up his claims at face value.
First, are Algerians Arab or merely native "Algerians" going way way back? Now, the constitution says that Algeria is an Arab state and it belongs to the Arab League for some reason. Can karim explain why, if they are not Arabs? And the official tongue is Arabic and classical Arabic is taught in the schools, rather than the true native language of the country, Berber, nor even the Mugrabi dialect of Arabic which is the main spoken language of the Algerian Arabs today. By the way, the teaching of classical Arabic rather than Mugrabi is held to be the main reason for the high illiteracy there. Now, the public use of the Berber tongue [called Amazight] is forbidden. Indeed, several years ago, scores of demonstrators for the use of Berber were shot dead by Arab police in the Kabyle region. Maybe, since the ban on Amazight is now embarassing the govt of Algeria, they may have eased up on the ban. But I'm not sure. OK, what I've written may only apply to language and the Algerians of today may be really just descended from the ancient inhabitants of the land, which was of course not called "Algeria," from the Arabic name, al-Jazeir [= the island; referring to an island in the bay of Algiers, I believe]. To be sure, we would have to do DNA studies comparing the Arab-identifying Algerians with the Kabyle Berbers. But karim wants to forget that there were massive Arab migrations into North Africa, called in Arabic "maghrab" [= west]. Historians estimate that a million persons took part in the medieval migrations of the Arab Bani Sulaym and Bani Hilal tribes from Egypt into the Maghrab. Of course, the original Arab conquerors of the Maghrab previously had often settled down in ["colonized"] their conquered territories, including Algeria.
So much for non-Arab Algerians.

How about the "Palestinians"? The PLO charter says very clearly in its first article that the "palestinian people" is part of the Arab nation and that "palestine" is part of the great Arab fatherland [watan]. When Jamal Husseini, spokesman for the palestinian Arabs spoke before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry in 1946, he claimed that the Palestinian Arabs were descended from the Arab conquerors of the 7th century. It seems that on this issue, karim's quarrel is not with me but with Jamal Husseini, the PLO charter, the constitution of Algeria, the migration history of Algeria, etc.

On the al-Dura hoax. The "seconddraft" website, shows how fake the alleged killing of al-Dura was. For details in French, see the Metulla News Agency site, which is part of the guysen news agency site. Now, the PLO strategy --and it worked-- was to send kids to fight Israeli soldiers. If the kids got hurt or killed, then Israel looked bad in the media representation of the event. If the Israeli soldiers let themselves be attacked without fighting back then Israel was shamed and looked bad in the media. But enough has been published and broadcast about how parents were paid for dead kids and how fathers and sons expressed the desire that the kid die in jihad, even if he was only 11 years old, for the willing use of kids in warfare by the Arab/PLO/PA side to be a well-established fact.
On the other, Arab terrorists have deliberately murdered Jewish children who were NOT sent into battle but were targeted by terrorist murderers.
In regard to al-Dura, it is doubtful that he is dead, and if he was killed, then it was not by Israelis.

Karim83, in another stunning historical development, said

There is no such thing as "The Arabs".

Tell that to Ibn Kallikan. Tell that to ibn Hawqal, al-Muqaddasi, or ibn al-Azraq. Tell that to Muhammad. No, the Arabs do not exist. The Arabian peninsula is devoid of human life. The 9/11 hijackers who were born and raised in Saudi Arabia? No, they did not exist. There is no such thing as the Arabs.

Muslim posters here have claimed that Israel is located on the Arabian peninsula, and is therefore Arab lands. You guys got to get your stories straight. Some of you guys claim Arabs own the whole Middle East, some of you guys claim Arabs don't exist. What up with that, Karim? You try to trick us? It not works.

Eliyahu,

The Arabs wiped out ancient ethnic identities. Ok, could you please put your money where your mouth is and tell us which indentities they wiped out? You talk so much about that and yet never give us any details or name any so called ethnic identities. First, are Algerians Arab or merely native "Algerians" going way way back? Now, the constitution says that Algeria is an Arab state and it belongs to the Arab League for some reason"

Had you read, or had you even intended to read my post you would have seen that the rise of Arab Nantionalism led to a feeling of Arab unity which before that never existed and even today doesnt really exist, in Algeria rising with the resistance against the barbaric French occupation. When they call themselves Arab, do they mean we originate from Jemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman or Bahrain? Do they mean that? What they mean is what every "Arab" constitution means, we are an Arabic speaking nation and the main religion is Islam.
The symbol of Tunisian national pride is not Mecca but Carthage. Do Syrians imply they descended from the Arabs, or do Lebanese imply that? No, they are proud of their Phoenician heritage and still call themselves Arab. Allmost all Morrocans, Algerians and Tunisians speak French. Is that because they descended from France? No, it is because France has left its stamp on the country it occupied for over a hundreth years. What worth does Jamal Husseini have for any Historian today?
Why quote an almost obscure figure from History? I have written this before and I will say it again, the Idea that Palestine was empty in 636 is ridiculous. It was never empty and there was never massive Arab immigration. The immigration of Arabs into Algeria on scales of millions is ludicrous.
The Middle East was never a populous region and such a depopulation of another region must have had enourmous demographic consequenzes which conspicously is missing from History. But our dear friend Eliyahu is obsessed with prooving Arab immigration into every Middle Eastern country. Ofourse there was immigration. There always was. There are Palestinians and Algerians descended from ancient Arabs and Bedouins. So what? There is no such thing as a homogenous population. It doesnt proove anything. The Arab as a collective
doesnt exist. It is a figment of the imagination.
A Frechman might feel himself part of what he calls the West and still have his own national identity. The Arab identity is only one of iamgined unity, replacing the concept of the Islamic Ummah, and not common ethnicity.

I think this puts the nail in the coffin. The massive
conversion of the Berbers in Algeria is a fact. From Wikepidias article on Algeria.

After some decades of fierce resistance under leaders such as Kusayla and Kahina, the Berbers adopted Islam en masse, but almost immediately expelled the Caliphate from Algeria, establishing an Ibadi state under the Rustamids. Having converted the Kutama of Kabylie to its cause, the Shia Fatimids overthrew the Rustamids, and conquered Egypt.

Nail in the coffin, my ass, Karimkguy!!

Interesting how you omit the struggles the Berber warrior Kahina went through through in trying to thwart the Arab Muslim conquest, and why she did it.

NOwhere do you talk about about the discrimination against Berbers which has existed for decades, but has reached a fever pitch as the Muslims gain in supremacy. And, FYI, most young people are not as fluent in French as their parents were..but are taught Arabic in school from the time that they were tots.

(On a personal note, dickwad, my daughters are 1/2 Algerian Arab, and 100% died in the wool true blue American citizens. They wear tight blue jeans, date who they want, and are free to dictate the course of their own lives. Viva la melting pot!! )

Typo..sorry...

"Died" shoud read "dyed." While their mother may be a target for Islamic fundamentalist assassins, my daughters are not, yet.

KarimGuy,

The whole debate about the superiority of religion based on who invented what is spurious.
Pagans, atheists, Buddhists, Christians, Jews, EVEYBODY, yes - even Muslims have invented
Stuff. The major pre-requisite of scientific inquiry in culture is the ability of that culture
to permit and encourage free inquiry.

However, your assertion that Islam is the religion of God based on supposed list of inventions
Shoots both yourself and Islam in the foot. The Islamic world has made precious little contribution
To science for 500 years.

Some early breakthroughs in Islam were encouraging, however, for example in Medicine and Diet
1. Cummin Seeds cure every disease known to mankind

Bukhari relates from Abu Hurayra that once God’s Messenger said:
There is in this black seed [black cumin] a cure for every illness except death. Bukhari, Tib, 7; Muslim, Salam, 88.

Try that one next time you're sick KarimGuu and let us know how you prosper.
Of course for really serious cases you'll be quaffing a few gallons of Mohammed's Mighty Milkshake made
from nutritious(?) Camel's Urine. What's that like anyway, KarimGuy ? :

2. Camel's Urine is Good Medicine

Sahih Bukhari

Narrated Anas:The climate of Medina did not suit some people, so the Prophet ordered them to follow his shepherd, i.e. his camels, and drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they followed the shepherd that is the camels and drank their milk and urine till their bodies became healthy.
Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 7, Bk. 71, No. 590. (Also, see No. 589.)

Muslim doctors also have the final word on what causes sneezing. You guessed it...

3. Satan lives up your nose

Al-Bukhari Volume 4 Number 516
The Prophet said, 'If anyone of you rouses from sleep and performs the ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blowing it out thrice, because Satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all the night.'

And of course, early Mohammedan breakthroughs in psychology showed the indisputable fact that that all women are deficient in morals, religion and intelligence:

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla [...] Then he passed by the women and said, "[...] I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" (Actually this is factually incorrect but let's continue anyway) The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." Sahih Bukhari. Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301

KarimGuy - Mohammed is unreliable. These hadith alone prove it. Mother Theresa of Calcutta alone disproves all three facets of the "woman" Hadith due to her dedicated prayer life, undisputed spirituality and keen intellect, while the various female Nobel Prize winners in Science (e.g Linda Buck, 2004, Medicine) show that Mohammed's views on the intelligence of women are quite frankly, retarded.

KarimGuy - if you have any intellectual honesty at all you should admit, on the basis of these Hadith alone, that Mohammed is unreliable and therefore not a prophet. Do you have the guts ?

Regards,

Trev

I see that Karim likes to go around and around. He really needs to study history outside of the shallow "leftist" and Muslim sources that he has been misled by. As to the Arabs, the problem with them is not what's in their genes but what's inside their heads. If we're so racially close, then why do they so delight in killing us? Since this topic is now in the archive, I'm not going on at length here. Maybe karim and I will more opportunities to disagree in the future. But first he should study history.

Rest in Peace, Ilan Halimi.

The "words" of Islamic "peace" keeps being drowned out by the screams of its victims.