1938 Alert from MEMRI:
On February 16, 2006, the reformist Internet daily Rooz (www.roozonline.com) reported for the first time that extremist clerics from Qom had issued what the daily called "a new fatwa," which states that "the shari'a does not forbid the use of nuclear weapons." The following are excerpts from the Rooz report by Shahram Rafizadeh:(1)"When the Entire World is Armed With Nuclear Weapons, it is Permissible to Use These Weapons as a Counter-[Measure]"
"The spiritual leaders of the ultra-conservatives [in Iran] have accepted the use of nuclear weapons as lawful in the eyes of the shari'a. Mohsen Gharavian, a disciple of [Ayatollah] Mesbah Yazdi [who is Iranian President Ahmadinejad's spiritual mentor], has spoken for the first time of using nuclear weapons as a counter-measure. He stated that 'in terms of the shari'a, it all depends on the goal.'
"The religious leadership of the Islamic Republic [of Iran], which has until now regarded the use of nuclear weapons as opposed to the Shari'a, and has repeated this point again and again, has so far kept silent about this. In spite of the fact that, in the last few weeks, some of the senior [leaders] of the Islamic Republic have tried to reduce the pressure [exerted by] the radical [conservatives], the radicals nevertheless seem to have complete control over the [political] arena.
"[Iranian National Security Council Secretary] Ali Larijani, who is in charge of the nuclear dossier, has spoken to reporters only once since the [IAEA] Board of Governors approved its resolution – and his silence is significant.(2) But yesterday, the IraNews news agency published recent remarks by Mohsen Gharavian regarding the nuclear issue. Gharavian is a lecturer at the religious schools of Qom, and is a disciple of [Ayatollah] Mesbah Yazdi. In his recent remarks, he said for the first time that the use of nuclear weapons may not constitute a problem according to shari'a. He further said that 'when the entire world is armed with nuclear weapons, it is permissible to use these weapons as a counter-[measure]. According to the shari'a, too, only the goal is important...'
Only the goal is important. As I explained in The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades).
your exactly right with the crusades, the european crusades where a defensive measure....the islamists even got as far as Spain......and then the pope organised europe and they cleaned house......about 1060 or some shit...
why isnt this mentioned, AT ALL?
In terms of the nukes, any religion that says its ok to nuke people is evil. period.
good thread, my first post, keep up the good work
The countdown has started. You can believe every word of Ahmadamadingdong. Every word.
A faith and a nation that finds justification in using nukes are to be regarded as pariahs.
if thier stupid enough to use a nuke they better wait till they have a few, otherwise they'll get about 10 in return
Robert, thank you for this posting and a short read about your book.
Allah the Merciful, Compassionate.
Bismillah arahman araheem.
Star Wars
If Ahmadinejad is Darth Vader and Yazdi is the Evil Emperor, can Iran redeem itself? Or will it alliance itself with nuclear Pakistan and "cleanse" Asia of Jews, Hindus, and American influence? I think that is part of Yazdi's frightening plan. He wants to start WWIII.
This from the people who justify horrific actions is no surprise to this hombre.
Seems as if islam is setting the stage for a major presentation to the world.
Of course it's ok under sharia law, this can be re-written to fit any agenda the mooslems deem fit and the koran say's so.
When iran uses a nuke and the west and Israel retaliate 10 fold the mooslems will cry far and loud about the persecutions they suffer and they will blame everyone but themselves, this is not a matter of if they will use them it is a matter of when they will use them, we should take them out before they are able to complete they're program for the sake of the civilized world.
Islam should be put down like the Nazi's were, no they should be put down worse.
... Just in case, let's roll back the blast doors and prepare to launch.
Allah the Merciful, Compassionate.
Bismillah arahman araheem.
Posted by: loler at February 16, 2006 06:32 PM
Hey, loler? F.O.A.D. Look it up.. It's in the koran.
Ishmael was born of Hagar and Abraham (a Jew). Isaac was born of Abraham and Sarah.
That makes Ishmael and Isaac half brothers.
That makes all muslims half Jew.
Right?
How convenient! And what would they need this for, as the battle continues over their "peaceful" nuclear program?
Just_Linda: No, they're not so lucky.
Jewish heritage is matrilineal, I understand, whereby there has to be an ancestor within a certain number of generations on one's mother's side of the family to be considered "born" Jewish.
People had a field day with that and Hitler-- he always had to dodge allegations that in the midst of his extermination campaign that he himself fit the criteria.
chu - doc posted: if thier stupid enough to use a nuke they better wait till they have a few, otherwise they'll get about 10 in return.
Actually once nuclear war starts there can be no end till one side or other is totally vanquished - and hear I mean totally eliminated as an entity.
In this context, a single nuke launched by Iran on Israel or any other Western nation, will immediately lead to the extinction of the islamic world. This scenario has been closely examined a couple of years ago, and is known as "The Three Conjectures".
We will have victory quite easily, but as our Judaeo-Christian civilisation has a strong component of guilt buiilt into it, we may not survive the collective guilt we will have. Witness the guilt we still feel for what we did in Dresden or Hiroshima.
That is why I feel that we have to solve the problem that is islam by other means - chiefly controlling immigration, separation and other such methods. What the cartoon jihad has meant is that immigration control of muslims is now going to be done silently. Westerners also are now unlikely to go to to North Africa for holidays. I see lots of very cheap holidays to Egypt and they are getting cheaper by the week - wonder why. Separation from the islamic world is already underway.
The fact that these fools even accept a fatwa makes me laugh, hard.
If I heard my pastor tell the congregation that he expects us all to go out and kill a few muslims, jews or hindus, all you would hear next is cellphones clicking open and 911 being dialed.
Tell you what Adebadajinebehadbab(sic), right here in the Bible where it says "Thou shalt not kill", what it really means is "Kill all muslims". Of course, thats just my own interpretation.
How do you like the game now?
A key difference between Iran and other countries that have recently ascended to the nuclear dining-table is that China, India, Pakistan etc. ostensibly sought bargaining power amongst their peers. But the Iranian regime sees itself as peerless; it bears sole responsibility as harbinger of the Mahdi.
While others could achieve their aims by simply 'testing' their weapons, the imp donning the dinner-jacket doesn't want or need bargaining chips. It will be too late if the civilised world waits for Iran to test is nuclear abilities, because that 'test' won't take place on Iranian soil.
And they don't need a dedicated missile. As others have pointed out here, a cargo plane, a ship or even a container-truck could deliver the goods. The Fatwa above delivers the justification. How much longer do we have?
The danger here is that Iran is looking to play the martyr by trying to destroy Israel. If they succeed in killing thousands or millions of Jews, then they will view that as a means to greater rewards in Heaven. If they fail, but still drag the world into World War III and the Ultimate Jihad, then again, they will be happy.
We must understand that to the "true believers" in Islam, death is not something to fear. The consequence of pressing that "red button" does not have the same spectre for Muslims that it does for most outside the taint of Islam. We have to go with the worst case scenario here: that if Iran succeeds in possessing nuclear weapons, they WILL use them to initiate an attack or at the very least, to blackmail the region and the world.
There can be no outcome to this situation other than a power change in Iran.
How that change of governments is going to take effect, however, is anyone's guess at this moment.
DP111 posted the following BS.
We will have victory quite easily, but as our Judaeo-Christian civilisation has a strong component of guilt buiilt into it, we may not survive the collective guilt we will have. Witness the guilt we still feel for what we did in Dresden or Hiroshima.
That is why I feel that we have to solve the problem that is islam by other means - chiefly controlling immigration, separation and other such methods.
Posted by: DP111 at February 16, 2006 07:37 PM
DP111,
How far to the left and liberal are you?????
Just how irrational are you after seeing all of the violence and murders committed by the peace loving Muslims and Islam and state the BS that you posted.??
First:
I and most other Americans do not feel guilty about Dresden or Hiroshima only left wing liberals. In war people die. Nuking Japan ended the war and saved American soldiers. Japan started the war and America ended it.
Second:
Islam has declared war on the civilized world. Islam intends on conquering the world with their 1.5 billion population and converting you or executing you.
If you believe that you can live with Islam and the Muslims, move there.
When Islam attacks the free world with Nukes or WMD's, it will be total destruction for Islam and I and most of America will not feel sorry about that either for Islam and the Muslims have had the opportunity to live in peace with the world and chosen and shown countless times that Islam and the Muslims do not want peace.
The free world can live in peace without Islam and Muslims and their oil.
The war with Islam is fastly approaching and it is near.
Be prepared, be armed, be ready.
The Texican.
Freedom. The only choice at any price.
Yeah. We sort of figured that...
Too bad China and Russia have gone along for the ride. And India is now a major source of financial support for Iran's economy.
Crazy world we inhabit, huh?
Lessons Learned from the 20th Century: Appeasement is evil. Hitler promised he wouldnt invade Russia...France...
Lessons Soon To Be Learned in the 21st Century: Moral Equivelance is evil. Islam is not just another "religon/lifestyle", it is a death cult focused on destruction of civillized people - in the same guise as the Nazi. However, appeasing Iran with nukes for fear of oil-prices while draping the excuse in the noble-robe of Moral-Equivelence will seal our fates.
Iran will, in the next 60 days, switch from "peaceful pursuit of nuke-energy" to "you forced us into a millitary application", which will result in a first-strike attack on Israel and/or Southern Europe. They have no real choices but to make that first strike.
I expect Iran to also shut down the Straits of Hormuz with wrecked ships and landbased missiles against tankers. Oil will be $100/bbl that week.
Are you ready?
bigdog posted DP111 like most well intentioned moderates your assumptions/premises are just wrong. The Dar Al Islam is any piece of ground where a Muslim wiped his feet and will eventually include all of the Dar al Harb or Land of Non-Muslims....don't be fooled into believing we will be left alone by these vermin after a "separation".
What has invigorated the jihad in the West is the presence of large numbers of muslims in the West. As it is impossible to differentiate the good from the potential suicidal muslim, our safety is best guarded with as few muslims in the West as possible. The tragedy we are seeing in Norway is one example of what the presence of muslims does in any Western country.
The muslim world is heavily reliant on the West supplying it with goods or money which can then be exchanged for goods. Sepaparion will stop that. Thus the muslim world will become increasingly dysfunctional, and lag further behind the West in its power to do any harm to us from the outside. Left to themselves, with a burgeoning population and less werewithal, they will be occupied in internal wars, and after a while may even come to realise that the cause of their grief is islam itself.
If they realise this, then that is welcome. If not they will be unable to do us any harm from the outside without very severe consequences if they do. Note that we have no real threat from any muslim nation. It is the presence of muslims in large numbers in the West that is the cause of the Jihad in the West.
The problem is that we, in a fit of absentmindedness or sheer disregard of the lessons of history, allowed in a huge numbers of muslims. This is the issue that has to be addressed asap before the demographic bomb succumbs us all to dhimmitude, helped along with terrorist outrages.
DP111:
There will be no changes of any consequence to protect Western nations and especially then United States until we finally declare Islam an enemy of the Constitution like we did Nazism and Communism.
This time is approaching though. I don't see how the world's 'stomach' can fill with much more bile before vomiting.
"the shari'a does not forbid the use of nuclear weapons."
Good! I couldn't be more delighted. I am guessing that this means that when Israel goes for the first strike, it will be ok with everyone?
:D
l think its too bad the moderate muslim cannot get rid of their immans and ruling class got to go. l say bombs away to their nuclear farms!
ahmadi-jihadi
is a mad man
whose greatest desire
is to light the fire
that burns the world down
and throws the infidels
into the hells of allah
where they will suffer forever.
Let us never forget that he has
many brothers who feel the same
and long for the paradise of the end game.
Texican
You do not feel any guilt over Hiroshima or Dresden and neither do I. However a large number of people do, whether they be Left-liberal or others. That is just a social and political fact, and as a consequence there will be a schism in society which will be hard to break.
Even a single nuke launched by Iran will lead to the extinction of the islamic world. There is no such thing as proportionate response in a nuclear war. This thing has been examined in The Three Conjectures.
It is for this reason that I feel that there has to be another way out.
Yes I know there is a war with the islamic world on the way. I have known this likelihood for atleast 25 years. One could even argue that we have been at war with the islamic world for 1200 years.
I predicted that freedom of expression was under threat at the time of the Rushdie affair in letters in UK papers, and was subjected to death threats for my pains. Ditto at the time of Bosnia war. So please dont be condescending to me.
What one has to do is to examine this issue cooly and not get hot headed as muslims did over the cartoon issue. Our chief advantage in this conflict is not power, which we have in abundance, but cool rationality. Conventional or nuclear war with the islamic world is not what worries me, except in the sense that very large numbers of people, mainly muslims will perish. And yes, I do feel sad about that, for many are innocent dupes of islam. It is the internal Jihad going on in the West, which is far harder to address, and which is the main threat.
The Jihad is all about taking over Infidel territory, his institutions and imposing his world view on Infidels. This Jihad has been invigorated as a consequence of muslim presence in large numbers in the West, and separation is what I would like to see, based on the acceptance on both sides if possible, that muslim tenets cannot exist in harmony with our values. The cartoon Jihad has I hoped, proved to many in the West, that peaceful coexistence with large numbers of muslims here, is just not possible. It will continue to cause even greater friction with the passage of time and lead to the very worst war possible- civil wars.
Foehammer posted: There will be no changes of any consequence to protect Western nations and especially then United States until we finally declare Islam an enemy of the Constitution like we did Nazism and Communism.
Exactly and I hope that will happen soon. I sincerely hope that the cartoon Jihad has woken the political elite from their slumber.
I simply do not understand how islam has got in under the radar. Here is an ideology that explicitly states that it intends to subvert and then overthrow the constitution, and they are allowed in, and even feted in the White House and the EU.
In the UK we a muslim parliament. Incredible!!!. Parliament since the Act of Accession, has not allowed any institution to even remotely challenge its supremacy. We even dispatched a divine King for his temerity in so doing. And here we are in the UK allowing a Muslim parliament. It is this internal Jihad going on in the West, with the active complicity of the political elite, and the demographic bomb, that is a far greater danger then Iran's bomb - dangerous thoough that it is.
Another thing that gets my goat is this meal that the White House and now the EU hold at the end of Ramadan. What is up? Are they celebrating the opening of the season on Infidels?
personally, i welcome world war 3
wars, unfortunately, are humans ways of correcting ourselves. The muslims did not really experience the world wars, thats why thier so bullish now
they have no problem dropping nukes. ok. but be aware the consequences if you do. it wont come to that anyway. the west would just let israel out its shackles and let them take care of it. and they will. they have the best equipment in the world, curtesy uncle sam.
but, Bush is playing this game like checkers, not chess. if it was chess, he made the wrong move invading iraq. what good did that do? maybe he meant it to upset the muslim world, to bait it. maybe he knew what was coming. i did. but the players in the region have always been the saudi's and the iranians. Iran should have been the first target.
chu-doc posted: maybe he meant it to upset the muslim world, to bait it.
Lets hope so, though I doubt it. But there is the law of unintended consequences.
The real problem chu-doc is the internal Jihad that is in progress in the West - Dawa, demographic bomb and large numbers of muslims still coming in. An external war just does not address that.
true, you've got to get your own house in order before you start cleaning up others.....
muslims by in large are ok in the states tho
What is happening is,
1. Bush is not a true Warrior President.
2. By the time 2008 rolls around if as I believe the enemy has become more violent, we will be ready to elect a true Warrior President.
3. The Iranians know this and are trying to provoke or initiate a strike before that can occur.
I am not looking forward to WW3 but if we must lets do it Okinawa style,"If they look dead, Two in the head.
A memo to Libbysmom:
Israel, the homeland of Judaism, has been subjected to repeated and unprovoked attacks from Islamic neighbors since the seventh century AD ass has much of southwest and southern Asia.
You likely live in a part of the world, libbysmom, that was largely unaffected by this conflict until recently. And, judging from your sly vilification of Israel you have probably sided with the "Palestinian people" (who are primarily Islamic holy warriors and their descendants who were sent there by the Islamic Caliphate as part of a jihad aka military assaults beginning in the seventh century) in this conflict.
Israel happens to be "Ground Zero" in Islam's worldwide jihad war of extermination against the 'infidels' or 'unbelievers' in that it is the first of Islam's numerous targets for extermination. There is nothing Israel can do to appease Islam short of renouncing judaism and "embracing Islam." Soon Americans will be forced at the point of the sword to do the same. And Australia. And Europe. And China. etc. Read the Kuran if you dispute me--it's all in there.
If Israel strikes Iran it will only be a "first strike" in the sense that Islam didn't use nuclear weapons on Israel first. But Islam has been launching endless and unprovoked attacks on Israel and the Jews since the 600s. Islam launched the first strikes on Israel.
If Israel retalliates with a nuclear response, libbysmom. not only would that be "okay," it might achieve the same result as the US' A-bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima--which I'll bet you are erroneously calling 'first strikes' too. There happens to be very little difference in either situation.
Being ignorant of history does not absolve you of the need to understand it correctly. FYI- The only true ethnicity native to Palestine were the Philistines who disappeared circa 600BC.
DP111-
I don't see a retaliation against even a nuclear-striking Iran (against Israel) as leading to anything but a return attack on Iran, alone. (If Israel could respond.) And I don't even see it as "going nuclear" immediately.
I sense that there would be a terrified, hand-wringing global demand for the surrender of the "criminal clique" that launched the attack. People in the civilized world would try to contain the reaction of the U.S. (and surviving Israelis/plus all other Jews) instantly.
Sunni Islam would chug merrily along without a care, happy to see a bunch of minority, heretical Shi'ites gone, -people they would have had to kill, themselves, at some future point.
Unless Pakistan joined in the atomic warfare with their own nuclear arsenal, Iran would most likely just have to hand over their own mullah rulers to be hanged by the U.S. (since Europe has no death penalty, even for mass-murder genocide... being the oh-so-unreal-and-'superior' folks that they think they are).
Naturally, Islam would "look bad", by association, with Iran and the infidel world would be looking for ways to rid themselves of this maniacal cult from their midst. But I don't even see there being any immediate calls for mass deportations, sequestering of all Muslims within the "Islamic world", or other such "draconian" measures.
The Japanese survived WW II and 2 nukes, and their war crimes were as bad, or in many cases were even worse than the Nazis' most diseased, subhuman lunacies.
If other Muslims kept their heads (not guaranteed, judging from what a cartoon can do to their Koran-loose screws), the calamity could be kept within Iran.
Meanwhile, the people of Iran would now be advised to rise up, revolt against the demented ayatollahs, kill these insane "leaders", and re-join the rest of civilization ...before they suffer the results of this increasingly fatalistic, apocalyptic situation... which could lead to millions of them being re-fried like KFC chicken in a Pakistani riot ...if it spiralled out of the gentler hands of the EU appeaser class.
But, personally, I prefer a premptive multi-targeted strike, now, and the West taking out all of Iran's WMD capabilites. Eliminating everyone and everything that would permit any kind of development of weaponry that would let them pursue their insane, sucidal delusion of the 12th Mahdi's "endtimes" armageddon.
The longer we dither, the more they fester.
Texican posted: If you believe that you can live with Islam and the Muslims, move there.
Good lord. For the last 3 years on JD/DW, I have been posting that integrating muslims in our societies is going to be failure because islamic tenets prevent them from integrating.
Well let us ignore for the moment the above and assume that you are a recent poster here. Even then and going with your response to my post which was
That is why I feel that we have to solve the problem that is islam by other means - chiefly controlling immigration, separation and other such methods. What the cartoon jihad has meant is that immigration control of muslims is now going to be done silently. Westerners also are now unlikely to go to to North Africa for holidays. I see lots of very cheap holidays to Egypt and they are getting cheaper by the week - wonder why. Separation from the islamic world is already underway.
I just do not see how you can respond to the above with "If you believe that you can live with Islam and the Muslims, move there."
Look forward to your post.
i just wonder what sides the muslims in europe and the states will take when push come to shove. it'll be interesting. No doubt they'll try to slither away, and probably wait till the right time to strike.
Remember, every Muslim is a "brother" (see, they dont even acknowledge thier sisters) and blood is thicker than water.
profitsbeard posted: I don't see a retaliation against even a nuclear-striking Iran (against Israel) as leading to anything but a return attack on Iran, alone. (If Israel could respond.) And I don't even see it as "going nuclear" immediately....I sense that there would be a terrified, hand-wringing global demand for the surrender of the "criminal clique" that launched the attack. People in the civilized world would try to contain the reaction of the U.S. (and surviving Israelis/plus all other Jews) instantly. .
Unfortunately there is a lot of truth in you say, given the current mental mindset of our political elites. My guess is that under such conditions such emotions will be released that the face of "tolerant towards all cultures" will simply be erased and a more dreadful face will appear ie one that thinks that a woundec tiger should not be left to run and attack another day.
However, as you point out, there is the dreadful possibility that we may decide to absorb a nuclear attack in return for some sops from the islamic world, while the Sunnis with SA in the lead, continue with their islamisation of the West. If such a scenario happens then I see a large numbers of Westerners converting to islam. Game, set and match.
The internal Jihad in the West is still the biggest problem that needs to be addressed.
___
chu -doc:
In the UK on the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the Queens accession to the throne, all Sikh and Hindu temples had lights and messages of sincere good wishes for her continued reign. No mosque had any such lights or good wishes.
Mohsen Gharavian: "'when the entire world is armed with nuclear weapons, it is permissible to use these weapons as a counter-[measure]. According to the shari'a, too, only the goal is important...'"
This captures two important elements of Islamic ideology.
1. Retaliation. Whatever the enemy uses or could use against you, you may likewise use or prepare for use against him. (In fact, the Koran goes beyond mere retaliation. Muslims should prepare to the utmost of their power against the enemy 8:60, using every strategem of war 9:5).
2. Not merely in the "sharia" but in the Koran itself, the goal is to conquer all religions of the world, to destroy all forms of disbelief on earth, no matter how averse this may be to the non-Muslims (9:33, 48:28, 61:9).
chu - doc wrote:but, Bush is playing this game like checkers, not chess. if it was chess, he made the wrong move invading iraq. what good did that do? maybe he meant it to upset the muslim world, to bait it. maybe he knew what was coming. i did. but the players in the region have always been the saudi's and the iranians. Iran should have been the first target.
Let me point out something so simple for everyone here that you probably don't even think about it until you look at a map.
http://www.middleeastfacts.com/images/map_middle_east-s.gif
On the west border of Iran is what? Iraq.
On the east border of Iran is what? Afghanistan.
Remember all those problems we had with our so-called allies giving us fly-over rights and base building sites prior to the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan? Our military leaders knew that would happen, but they also knew that Iran was working towards nuclear energy and most likely, nuclear weapons capabilities -- long, long ago. The CIA has been actively trying to incite a revolution in Iran for decades, slowly ever so slowly.
Well, like the thumb and firstfinger, the U.S.A. is now prepared to squeeze Iran til it pops.
See how simple it all really is? And people think we shouldn't be in Iraq. Don't be so hasty, I say. You sorely underestimate our military academies and the quality of officers they churn out. Many things have been on the table for longer than any of us probably realize. Long-term strategies are what make or break great nations.
Check out this Daniel Pipes article from 3 days ago. In it is a copy of the U.S. Military Intelligence Review from 1946. It is eye-opening in its prescience.
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/3370
There won't be any lack of bases to use for an attack on Iran, that much you can be sure of, and the attack will come with no warning, from within (i.e. civil revolt) as well as without.
Hypothetical? Perhaps.
Wait and see.
CrusadorforAmerica
I sincerely hope for the well being of the muslim world and the planet itself that your analysis bears out, though at the moment, and when one examines the Jihad through history, it is the more aggressive interpretations of the Jihad that have come out on top, to the severe detriment of the Infidels and their civilisation.
Archimedes posted: Not merely in the "sharia" but in the Koran itself, the goal is to conquer all religions of the world, to destroy all forms of disbelief on earth, no matter how averse this may be to the non-Muslims.
Exactly. There is unfortuntely no getting away from that. We are dealing with a mindset that believes that their personal redemption lies in subjugation or conversion of the rest of the world with their reward in the afterlife. This is something that has yet to be understood widely.
CrusadorforAmerica:
Not all Germans were Nazis either. That didn't stop us from shooting and bombing them and their allies during World War II.
The constant need to look for moral equivalency when faced with evil is one of our greatest weaknesses as a culture. It is one born out of our basic decency as peoples of the West, nourished by the best that Judeo-Christian values have to offer. But, there comes a time when one must no longer be the sheep. One must become the lion.
When this war with Islam breaks out, there will be little room for sheep and there will be NO room for moral equivalency or waffling. Fight for our freedoms and what makes our countries what they are. Defend what countless thousands have died to protect over the centuries.
foehammer, i see what you mean. however, the war in iraq is very unpopular. purely for the reasons given for its invasion. i think having the whole nation behind you, as they would have been for an invasion of iran, is more important than having a startegic position.
not to mention a stretched army. but we'll see, they could be right.
Foehammer
Iran is in a strategic straitjacket- hemmed in with Iraq and Afghanistsan to the West and East respectively, US bases in Turkey to the north and the fleet in the south. This must be giving iranian defence planners sleepless nights.
It will be a sustained air campaign that will destroy the iranian nuclear infrastructure.
chu - doc wrote: foehammer, i see what you mean. however, the war in iraq is very unpopular. purely for the reasons given for its invasion. i think having the whole nation behind you, as they would have been for an invasion of iran, is more important than having a startegic position.
I'm afraid I have to strongly disagree here. On the state of world politics, nations have to carefully play for position. After 9/11 there was actually greater reason to invade Saudi Arabia than there was to invade Iran, and we did neither because the strongest and most internationally supported play was obviously Afghanistan.
No nation in history has played the chess table like the United States of America. We are masters of it. Why? Because we are THE democracy from which all others are born. A democracy by the nature of its free society can not just rashly assault other nations -- there has to be a formulated and gravitating reason that the people of our democracy can get behind. So, we play the gambits, we play our allies, we play our friends, we arm despots when needed and crush them when they are no longer useful. It's a very Machiavellian way of doing business, but it's what keeps us all tucked away safely in our beds at night. Like it or not.
So, the WMD threat from Sadam Hussein posed the perfect reason to strike Iran next, and thus, get into a second long-term strategic position on the map that would surely be needed.
Did he ever actually possess WMDs? I believe he did and had plenty of time to get them across borders to Syria and probably send scientiest to other nations like Libya. But regardless, the intent was never so much about finding WMDs as it was getting rid of a problem that should have been handled in 1991.
Now, these few years later, Iran has finally given us the reaons we need to deal with its brutal theocratic leadership. Yet another gambit is about to be played out to the end and I can assure you that the United States will not roll snake-eyes.
I really do miss the days of playing 'Diplomacy' on the dinner table, but this is almost as fun.
lets get one thing straight - the people of afganistan and iraq will not willingly let the u.s send planes from those countries without a big fight. even if it was our administrations in place. thats the beast were dealing with. we're the opressors now. the army is stretched, a land invasion of iran is unlikely. but iran caneasily send all its troops into iraq/afganistan and thier unmaned borders, like thier doing now secretly) and sabotage any planes strikes ( see: vietnam, the american soldiers didnt know who to trust)
i think an air strike is possible from afganistsan but defintley not iraq. ppl do not appreciate long term u.s troop deployment.
typos in my previous posting:
"On the stage of world politics..."
"...the perfect reason to strike Iraq next, and..."
--
I dearly wish there was an edit feature on these comments boards.
Afghanistan and Iraq are in no position to bite the hands that feed them right now. Agitating the full force of the United States military in time of international crisis would risk actually coming under our boot for once. For real this time.
Trust me when I tell you: nobody wants to come under the direct ire of the American people -- and the soccer moms are paying attention to Islam and Iran now. Thanks to the Cartoon Riots and Hitler-esque sabre-rattling coming out of Islamic leaders from Iran to Hamas and Hezbollah.
A nuclear threat from the Middle East is going to garner massive U.S. support by the people for action.
These "little" conflicts since World War II, they are nothing compared to what is ahead. And in a world conflict, fighting the American people is a far different animal from fighting disjointed and squabbling political parties that are trying to smooth the feathers of citizens that don't believe there were any WMDs.
Israel will not wait for permission to strike Iran or anyone else if they are hit by nukes. You must remember two things about Israel. One they have a Massada Complex - never again. The other is a Samson Complex - they will take everyone else down if they are going down. That means all the Arab capitals. That means Russia because of all of the anti-semitism through their history. Israel is reported to have some two hundred nukes. Looks like the mid east will be a glow for a long time. Ii I was Russia, I would be very concerned, because they will be hit too.
In the 1991 gulf war, Israel became most unhappy and opened the doors of it's nuclear silo's when Iraq started firing scud missiles into their country.
It was only because of America sending soldiers and weaponry to shoot down the missiles that Israel became happy once more and hundreds of millions of muslims still live today.
Muslims should love Americans for preventing their extinction....whats their problem???
Maybe they are just pissed because they had to wait another fourteen years to get stuck into those virgins and little boys.
What, me worry?
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=19266_ElBaradei_Springs_Into_Action_Suggests_Compromise&only
Trust me: Mohammed 'watching' Almahdinejad, sure recipe for success...
They honestly think that they will be allowed to commit genocide - for religious reasons.
If we want an example to look at - the Taliban - killed the women for reading a book, took all television and technologies away from the masses and handed them a gun!
With all the money that these countries have taken in - from oil sales - these should be some of the top economies in the world. With the cushion of oil sales underneath them - we should be looking to them for our technologies.
It seems a sad story – telling their children that the crusaders and the colonialist are the cause of their troubles - really demonstrates how resistant that region is to facing up and taking responsibility for their reality.
It’s now either 'their Peace' or 'our Peace' - that is going to win the day.
We don't want 'their Peace' under the sword;
So for most of us 'our Peace' and therefore 'our way of life' must win.
In the Koranic texts God makes several references to towns that he had destroyed in the past to punish inhabitants therein. So it is only natural that a body of "law" based on the Koran gives a green light to WMD mass murder in the name of Submission (aka Islam).
Moslems and WMD go together hand-in-glove. The only irony is that the technology they plan to use are the fruit of Jewish brains.
Alarmed Pig Farmer,
Not only does the Koran talk of destruction of cities from God's wrath,
so does the Bible, including the mention specifically of Damascus.
Since Damascus has never been destroyed in it's history, Bible scholars
sometimes point to this as a possible prophecy of the end times. Maybe...
From Isaiah 17:1
1 An oracle concerning Damascus. Behold, Damascus will cease to be a city, and will become a heap of ruins.
I see your point. The notion of political leaders sitting around studying texts predicting the end times has always given me the creeps. Reagan's Bible group that meet weekly in the White House (Robinson, Falwell, Graham, et al) did this.
DP111 you posted:
We will have victory quite easily, but as our Judaeo-Christian civilisation has a strong component of guilt buiilt into it, we may not survive the collective guilt we will have. Witness the guilt we still feel for what we did in Dresden or Hiroshima.
That is why I feel that we have to solve the problem that is islam by other means - chiefly controlling immigration, separation and other such methods.
This is borders on being to leftist liberal
Which I responded to and not kindly.
=================================
From reading your other postings and I have a better understanding of your stance.
I agree that there is immense problems with Muslims within American and the western civilized nations. The only way to control this problem is to send all of the Muslims out of each western country, but this will not happen because of the very freedoms that we are fighting to protect until our great leaders declare war on Islam so our enemy is not protected by our constitution, then action can be taken.
I do not think this will happen until Islam attacks with car bombs, suicide bombers, WMD's or nukes.
It is to late to combat Islam by controlling immigration, separation and other such methods and besides Islam does not want to be controlled.
DP111, I will read you postings a more intensity, but I will continue calling to task any leftist liberals that spew their dogma.
The Texican
Freedom. The only choice at any cost.
"THE United States lags dangerously behind al-Qaeda and other enemies in getting out information in the digital media age and must update its old-fashioned methods, Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said yesterday.
Modernisation is crucial to winning the hearts and minds of Muslims worldwide who are bombarded with negative images of the West, Mr Rumsfeld told the Council on Foreign Relations."
Good boy, Don! We need to cut loose more of our over paid American engineers -- especially in high security areas -- and replace them with less expensive al Qaeda workers.
Besides saving money on manpower, our numbskull American workers might learn from their expertise.
What?
Blow themselves up?
Hmmmmm .... that's okay Don, that simply means that we don't have to give them raises as they accrue experience -- another cost saving measure! Not to mention expensive pension liabilities -- puff! Gone! I like it; actually, this thing is beautiful Don!
They're vampires too?
Well, I admit that drinking blood is a little screwy but as long as it doesn't interfere with their job, who cares right?
It's about hearts and minds Don. Say, maybe we should have more Pita bread and lemonade in the cafeteria?
I'll have my secretary Lois get a memo to the cafeteria manager right away. Tell George he better get used to the idea of Hummus real fast!
uh, no Don don't worry about the general public -- just give them more sports to keep them happy. Make up a few polls now and then -- it will all work out!