...as those they have nurtured turn on them. "al-Qaida Threatens to Hit More Saudi Sites," from AP:
MANAMA, Bahrain - Al-Qaida suicide bombers will attack more Saudi oil facilities, the terror group purportedly threatened Saturday in an Internet statement that claimed responsibility for the foiled attack on the Abiqaiq plant in eastern Saudi Arabia.Two suicide bombers tried to drive cars packed with explosives into Abiqaiq, the world's largest oil processing facility, on Friday afternoon, but security guards opened fire and the vehicles exploded outside the gates, killing the bombers and fatally wounding two guards....
A statement appeared on a militant Web site saying that Friday's attack was "part of a series of operations that al-Qaida is carrying out against the crusaders and the Jews to stop their plundering of Muslim wealth." It was signed "al-Qaida in the Arab Peninsula" — the name of the Saudi branch of the terror network.
The statement did not acknowledge that the attack was foiled. In fact, it claimed that the two "heroic holy warriors" managed to enter Abiqaiq.
"There are more like them who are racing toward martyrdom and eager to fight the enemies of god, the Jews, the crusaders and their stooges, the renegade rulers" of Arab countries, the posting said.
"You will see things that will make you happy, god willing," concluded the statement....
The al-Qaida Web posting said "these (oil) factories help to steal the wealth of Muslims" and claimed the attack was "part of al-Qaida's project to expel the infidels from the Arab peninsula."...
The posting said Friday's attack was dubbed "Operation Bin Laden Conquest."
The huge Abqaiq facility processes about two-thirds of Saudi Arabia's oil for export, removing hydrogen sulfide and reducing the vapor to make the crude safe for shipping. It lies 25 miles inland from the Gulf coast.
What to say? islam Grows tediouser, and tediouser ...
May the deportations begin.
Serves them right for funding terrorists. It's going to *really* suck being them when the allied forces pull out of Iraq and all those murderous thugs they've been paying return home to Saudi.
Why would al-qaida fess up to a foiled plop such as this? And why does al-qaida want to mess with suadi oil? I wonder. I see your are back Granny.
The al-Qaida Web posting said "these (oil) factories help to steal the wealth of Muslims" and claimed the attack was "part of al-Qaida's project to expel the infidels from the Arab peninsula."... - from the article
Stealing the wealth of Muslims. Yeah, that's why mostly-Muslim OPEC has a stranglehold on the supply, and oil revenues have supported theocratic Muslim regimes and funded the export of fundamentalism. Do they really think they got the short end of the stick there?
Why would al-qaida fess up to a foiled plot such as this? And why does al-qaida want to mess with suadi oil? I wonder. I see you are back Granny.
Muslim logic eludes me: $60 a barrel is certainly stealing but I'm not getting any richer...
The only surprise is that the attack is being claimed by, and promptly attributed to, Al-Qaeda.
For one would not have been surprised had the attack come from Shi'a living in al-Hasa province, for it is they, several hundred thousand of them, who for a very long time have had to endure Wahhabi malevolence, Wahhabi discrimination, Wahhabi contumely, and might have been inspired by the Shi'a ascendancy in Iraq, which they can hardly have remained unaware of, and the Shi'a ability to now fight back. Nor will the Shi'a in Bahrain, who make up 70% or more of the population, and now chafing under Sunni rulers, fail to be inspired, nor the nearly half of the population in Yemen that is Shi'a, nor the Shi'a in Afghanistan, the Mongol-descended Hazaras, who were killed, or if women taken as sex slaves by the Sunnis of the Taliban, nor will the Shi'a in Pakistan, whose professional class has long been a target of Sunni attacks, especially by members of two groups, Sipha-e-Sahaba and Lashkar-e-Jangvi, fail to be influenced by the Sunni-Shi'a fighting and, even without fighting, endless hostility that phone calls from George Bush, and calls for "peace," will not have the slightest effect in diminishing.
One would love to know when Bush, when Rice, when all the rest of them first began to realize that the overthrow of Saddam Hussein meant, inevitably, that the Shi'a would take power, either take power of all of Iraq, or take power of the southern part with the major oil resources and the only port. When did it occur to them that perhaps the sectarian split would not be overcome in the general "joy at liberation" (the joy in Baghdad will make the celebrations in Kabul seem like a "funeral procession" -- Bernard Lewis, 2002). When did they figure out that the hostility long preceded the regime of Saddam Hussein, and that those who kept assuring them (like that old warhorse, described much too charitably as an "elder stateman," the famously louche Adnan Pachachi, who claims in an interview in the Corriere della Sera that there is not, and never will be, a "civil war" because the Sunnis and the Shi'a have always gotten along, and in fact Shi'a were prominent in Saddam Hussein's regime) had their own fish to fry -- especially all those Shi'a thoroughly-westernized exiles who either ignored, or simply forgot, what the real Iraq, and the real Iraqis, were really like.
Now the Adminstration is said to be "worried" about "civil war." The thing to worry about, if you are not in the Administration, but simply an intelligent Infidel, is why anyone in the government of the United States expresses "worry" about sectarian violence.
And still worse, why they "worry" about this sectarian violence "spreading" elsewhere in the Middle East and in Muslm lands further away.
I understand why the AL-Saud family should be worried. I understand why the Ruler of Bahrain (oh, did he promote himself to king yet? I can't remember) should be worried. I understand why the government of Yemen should be worried. I understand why the Sunnis and Shi'a in Lebanon might be worried. I understand why some Shi'a an dSunnis in Pakistan and Afghanistan might be worried.
But why, exactly, please explain so I can get it through my thick skull, should the Infidels in charge of the non-Muslim government of the non-Muslim (in everything which made America America) United States should "worry" over the "threat" of Sunni-Shi'a civil war.
Bush gets on his high horse, about those who would question his policy on the U.A.E. Ports deal ("bigotry" and so on). He still tells us, even now, that there are those who "would pervert" a "noble" religion. He still talks, incessantly, driving us all batty, about a "war on terror" and our "allies" --- Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, the U.A.E., Morocco, Algeria -- in that "war on terror." But about the real war, the war of self-defense against the Jihad and all of its instruments, silence. Silence about Europe, except to push for Turkey's admission to the European Community. Silence about the islamization of Western Europe. Lukewarm defense of freedom of speech, with time for equal deploring of those who do not responsibly exercise that "freedom" (i.e. dare to offend Muslims). Continued belief in the "two-state solution" which shows continued incomprehension of the nature of the Arab and Muslim opposition to Israel, where not further surrender by the Israelis, but only overwhelming power on their side (not merely possessed, but seen to be possessed), can prevent the Lesser Jihad from being pursued by military means -- only the doctrine of necessity, Darura, invoked when the Infidel enemy is simply too strong, can prevent that, and keep the peace.
He's on his high horse about the U.A.E. business. He's still talking, or rather, hallucinating, about Iraq -- and American soldiers will continue to pay with their lives for his, and his advisers, hallucinations. He still can't talk about Islam or the Jihad; it's still the "war on terror."
That's why none of us can stand him. That's the real explanation for our fury over the U.A.E. business. The U.A.E. has not earned our trust. But Bush and Company have also not earned our trust. There is nothing Machiavellian about them. Nothing cunning. Just a messianic wish to bring "democracy" which then becomes confused when the "democracy" doesn't quite work out that way in the twin farces of the "elections" held in Egypt, where when allowed to present a candidate the Muslim Brotherhood swept the board, and in Saudi Arabia, where the teeny tiny municipal elections always produced winners from among the most fanatically Muslim, or for that matter the non-existent "Palestinian people" with their elevation of Hamas to be their reprsesentatives.
Yet here is the American army, smack in the middle of Iraq, still, with money and materiel and men's lives being put on hold, and risked,, and sometimes ended altogether, while the pretense that a "united" army -- an "Iraqi" army, an army of "Iraqis," can be trained and produced beyond more than a handful so carefully being nurtured, and given endless amounts of care by the American soldiers who are their nurses, and they the premature babies who have to be tended to at every step. At this rate, we will be in Iraq, and spend another half-trillion, before there are even 20,000 "Iraqi" soldiers -- the only 20,000 Sunni and Shi'a Arabs, and Kurds, who will be found willing, at this point, to fight together, which means -- to trust their lives to each other.
It can't be done. Facts, history, that sort of thing - stubborn things. Remember?
Not Bush. Not Bush who is now getting up on his high horse. All Hat, and No Cattle.
Rocking horse, toy hat, and imaginary cattle. “When I was a moneygrubber I spoke as a moneygrubber I understood as a moneygrubber I thought as a moneygrubber; but when I became a leader I put away moneygrubbing things."
Here we go again with Bush bashing... l dont know which one is endless... Bush cannot as a "Western leader" (ofthe World) go on record and say that Islam is the reason for terroism, it has to come from others below him. If it were Clinto or Kerry, you would get more UN useless decrees condemming blah blah..more muslims are killing more muslims,,, more than if Bush tried to have the army kill them.
There is a great article in National Review about Iraq, written by a person who came back from there.
l dont think that the ports will be handed off so easily to the UAE.
as for the Saudi, what they sow they will reap. they are now having the craven islamofacists attack the hand the feeds them. they need to hit the bottom of the barrle before they get into the fold.
ITs a good thing WW2 did not have the freakin PC climate that we have now!
decent man to al-qaida,"thanks for the heads-up idiot"
We need to find a way of bypassing the Middle East and Mohammedan countries for oil, they don't want our kind there and I agree, we should get the heck out, however sauce for the goose etc.
They don't want our kind there, yes of course, many repeat that demand, from OUR countries, what the heck are they doing in our countries anyway?
Those of course who come from their countries should replace them on their way back, if they don't like us they should leave.
Personally I would rather go without their oil and make do with a bike for all but essential journeys than pay that scum even one penny for their jihad, terrorist funding oil.
Don't like us westerners? FFS GO THEN!
"unlike communism,islamic fundamentalism has no military might, but america is still scared of it".
maj.gen.mohsen rezai
irgc 1991
bin laden wants nor needs the oil of saudi arabia. to bring down the house of saud is his objective. the rest will fall into place if this is achieved.
How stupid are they? We are BUYING the oil not stealing it. If they don't sell it it gives
no one any wealth it just sits in the earth, useless.
Blame the Saudi's fine, if they think they are not getting their fair share. We are just a customer.
As some one else posted: Tedious.
Same old crap different day from these miserable, whining, pitiful victims.
"Personally I would rather go without their oil and make do with a bike for all but essential journeys...."
-- from an exasperated poster above
What is the answer to the reliance on oil and gas from Muslim countries, so that part of the revenues received will, always and inevitably, constitute the "wealth" weapon of Jihad (for how could it be otherwise, given the beliefs of those who live in and run those countries?)?
The answer is: everything. Private money, government money, government insurance guarantees, for nuclear reactors. An end to attitudinizing about the supposed horrors of nuclear energy. A little more attention to those who in the past, and now, see the dangers as greatly exaggerated, the benefits as giganitc. Hans Bethe and Andrey Sakharov come to mind.
Private money, government money, tax code changed to favor, solar collectors and wind farms.
Government subsidies to every kind of mass transit -- within cities, and interurban. Call back from forced retirement the Canadian who headed Amtrak. No more nonsense about how Amtrak has to "pay its way" when the government has been subsidizing, ever since World War II, the building of highways, and in a hundred other ways has created the nightmare reliance on the automobile, while doing nothing, even since 1973, to reverse course.
Government taxes on gasoline use, ever-rising, never going down, so that when car-buyers, and therefore car manufacturers, make their plans, they will plan for gasoline prices in the United States that will head inexorably upward, toward the amounts now charged in Italy (at those "Self-Centers" as they are called, so unself-consciously, on the much-tolled highways), and France, and Germany. High, ever higher, those costs must be. And take all that money raised in taxes and put it right back into the economy, by paying for solar and wind and nuclear energy projects, or those subsidies to mass transit. Anything and everything related to energy.
And with all kinds of public mea maxima culpas, all sorts of public wishes that we had not done what we have done, help to possibly convince others, say the Chinese government, to dampen domestic enthusiasm for the car, and to not quite so quickly abandon the bicycle-based system that can still, here and there, be preserved before so-called "progress" arrives to bring in the car.
You can teach an old dog new tricks. Thomas Hardy learned to ride a bike at 56. Why can't America learn to ride a bike? What did Thomas Hardy know that America doesn't? (Oops, maybe I shouldn't have asked that question).
"...as those they have nurtured turn on them" posted by Robert
The Bottom line is this:
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
And so - we are left with a choice. CHOOSE}}} Peace or War!
For you 'atheists' out there - your solutions offer NO cure for the power of the Koran.
Take away the teachings of Jesus - [which are total Peace] - and the teachings of Muhammad [which are total war] WILL surely fill in the gap! Like it or not - that is the true realtity! Bloodshed and sorrow is the end result....whether you like this truth or not!
The Saudi government cries because they are attacked? by those who were taught to take matters into their own hands? to go after those who don't honor ''''allah'''' as they, themselves, see fit?
What else is to be expected from those who are taught to play the part of God? taking lives they did not give - nor can replace?
Let the Saudi government save their sob tears - for al-Quada!
For those who may not have read it, I highly recommend "Our Culture, What's Left of It" by Theodore Dalrymple. One of the essays in the book, "When Islam Breaks Down", was cited by David Brooks of the N.Y. Times as the best journal article of 2004. Dr. Dalrymple is a psychiatrist, author, and widely travelled; and, he writes not only of his clinical experience with Muslims in Britain but his many encounters with them in Islamic states. He provides great insight into why "...the fanatic in Islam is always at a moral advantage vis-a-vis the moderate". He also addresses the question as to why many blacks in prison are attracted to Islam. It's a marvelous book and it goes far deeper than the usual superficial and PC comments made by so many pundits. By the way, there have been many recent publications dealing with Mohammed and Islam but I'd like to remind everyone that one of the best and earliest sources comes from that classic, "Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire" by Gibbon. In his own inimitable and sardonic style he gives a remarkably modern and realistic portrayal of Mohammed.
I highly recommend "Our Culture, What's Left of It" by Theodore Dalrymple.
Naaaaah
Read the Koran - and read the New Testament - and then --- you be the Judge for yourself!!!!!!!!!!
Don't let anyone esle be the judge or you.
Do you have a brain - no?
You decide for yourself!!!! the things that matter - and don't let anyone else make that judgment for you!
You be your own judge!
Below are some things to get you started....
THE WORKS OF CHRIST - THE SON OF GOD: Sealed in the U.S. Constitution Article VII
Mat 5:44 I [Jesus] say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.
1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good.
Rom 13:9 Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Jhn 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
OR
THE WORKS OF MUHAMMAD:
009.005 fight and slay the Pagans '''wherever''' ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war.
033.061 They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy.
009.123 O ye who believe! fight '''the unbelievers''' who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you.
002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing [war] which is good for you and that ye love a thing [peace] which is bad for you?
009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.
047.004 Therefore, when ye meet '''the Unbelievers''' in fight, smite at their necks. [Behead them!]
005.033 The punishment of those who '''wage war''' against Allah and His Messenger is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet.
033.052 It is not lawful for thee to marry more women after this, nor to change them for other wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess as handmaidens.
They are permitted to trade back and forth ''''as wives'''' the non-Muslim mothers, daughters and wives of the non-Muslim men of which they they are commanded to kill.
SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO?
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God
The tree is known by his fruit. {{{ChHOOSE - for yourself
I highly recommend "Our Culture, What's Left of It" by Theodore Dalrymple.
Naaaaah
Read the Koran - and read the New Testament - and then --- you be the Judge for yourself!!!!!!!!!!
Don't let anyone esle be the judge or you.
Do you have a brain - no?
You decide for yourself!!!! the things that matter - and don't let anyone else make that judgment for you!
You be your own judge!
Below are some things to get you started....
THE WORKS OF CHRIST - THE SON OF GOD: Sealed in the U.S. Constitution Article VII
Mat 5:44 I [Jesus] say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.
1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good.
Rom 13:9 Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Jhn 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
OR
THE WORKS OF MUHAMMAD:
009.005 fight and slay the Pagans '''wherever''' ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war.
033.061 They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy.
009.123 O ye who believe! fight '''the unbelievers''' who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you.
002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing [war] which is good for you and that ye love a thing [peace] which is bad for you?
009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.
047.004 Therefore, when ye meet '''the Unbelievers''' in fight, smite at their necks. [Behead them!]
005.033 The punishment of those who '''wage war''' against Allah and His Messenger is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet.
033.052 It is not lawful for thee to marry more women after this, nor to change them for other wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess as handmaidens.
They are permitted to trade back and forth ''''as wives'''' the non-Muslim mothers, daughters and wives of the non-Muslim men of which they they are commanded to kill.
SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO?
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God
The tree is known by his fruit. {{{CHOOSE - for yourself
Re Hugh's suggestions for reducing our dependence on foreign oil, I would merely add
AND THEN LET THEM EAT SAND.
When the day comes that westerners have finally eliminated their need for Middle East oil, I look forward to my far lefty friends (who have been regailing me with the sad story of how we evil westerners had 9/11 coming to us because we have been "stealing" those poor Muslim's oil) scratching their heads and saying "But how are they gonna eat now?". To which I will reply with a completely straight face, "Why they will eat sand, my friend. It's everything you, and they, hoped for."
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/
Some of us have embraced other religions but most of us have simply left Islam without
believing in any other religion. We believe in humanity. We believe that humans do not need to
follow a religion to be good. All we need to follow is the Golden Rule. All we have to do is to
treat others they way we expect to be treated. This is the essence of all the goodness. All good
religious teachings stem from this eternal principle. This is the ultimate guidance humanity need.
This is the Golden Rule.
Some people need religion and some don't.
What did Thomas Hardy know that America doesn't?
"It takes a long wandering to find a short path." - From Tess of the d'Urbervilles
(Even on a bike.)
Therefore, we gain nothing by waiting for the "next big thing" in energy to appear that will make oil unnecessary. The lack of the emergence of a single, uniform replacement should not stop us from trying anything and everything to get away from oil. Now.
Biodiesel, ethanol, coal distillates, along with walking and biking, properly insulating one's home, etc.: Every little bit helps.
A clear winner in the post-oil energy supply will emerge through the consensus of common use, courtesy of Adam Smith's "invisible hand."
does anyone else think the terrorist got the idea to attack the Abiqaiq oil refinery from this movie?
http://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/originals/oilstorm/main.html
lilbean -- Benjamin Netanyahou made an astute statement: During the Cold War the Soviet Union, even though it professed an irrational ideology, generally conducted its foreign affairs rationally when faced with MAD; but Iran is a radically and categorically different enemy. It's controlled by fanatical and hateful mullahs who court martyrdom and Armageddon. They've publicly stated they there could care less if they lose a couple or a few hundred thousand if they could obliterate Israel. It's the mentality of the suicide bomber on the nation-state scale. It should terrify all of civilization if these jihadists with an 8th century mentality and worldview get nuclear weapons.
Mr. Fitzgerald -
Hardy "On an Invitation to the United States":
"That long drip of human tears".
Sorry all, couldn't resist it. It's not the quote, it's how one uses it.
I feel the need to juxtapose for just a minute, the posts by Beth above, citing the scriptural differences between Christianity and Islam with the post of Fireangel, claiming that some people need religion and some peopl don't, because there is always the Golden Rule to rely on.
I was raised very Catholic. Attended Catholic schools, including a prominent Catholic University. Going to church every Sunday was a big pain in the butt. I've still never bothered to read the Bible cover to cover. And I left the church when I was about 20, at which point I started calling myself an ex-Catholic, as so many westerners do. After all that, being a perfect product of my generation, most of my "spiritual" readings over the next 2 decades were in the realm of "eastern philosophy" - everything from Alan Watts to Jiddu Krishnamurti and popular "New Age" writings in between.
Hey. No problem at all there. Until 9/11 and its aftermath.
But the thing I realize now in retrospect is how much I actually absorbed through all those boring Sunday sermons I was subjected to. Everything Beth quotes and more. Let he who has not sinned throw the first stone. Love thy neighbor as thyself. There are too many examples to cite. But I am quite certain that one cannot simply cut directly to the chase and say
Just follow the Golden Rule!
as if that's all there is to it! It just doesn't work that way. Because there is no detail to seep into one's head from childhood. There are no stories, no details that engage the imagination to back up that message. To imagine that you can dispense with stories and oral tradition in that way and simply "cut to the chase" as it were, betrays a complete misunderstanding of the role of "indoctrination" from childhood, if you will, into a society's teaching and moral precepts. At this point we've all become well aware of how successful Islam has been into indoctrinating it's young into the cause of Islam, including inculcating a willingness to die for the sake of jihad.
So I think that Fireangel and other posters here who somehow imagine that their moral sense simply sprang "de novo" into their brains - Why it was so obvious all along! - The Golden Rule! are completely mistaken, if not downright deluded, in imagining that the west can easily dispense with its moral foundations - as transmitted to it's children primarily through Christianity and think that the west can possibly prevail in this conflict.
The fact is that that moral understanding of the Golden Rule did not spring "de novo" into our brains as if it were simply completely obvious to us all along and therefore why on earth do all those stuffy western Christians bother to go to church! No. That understanding of right and wrong is the product of hundreds of generations before us sitting in church and listening to sermons. That's how those truths have managed to seep iinto our consciousness and the consciousness of our neighbors over mellenia.
But now, a bunch of arrogant westerners who are completely ignorant of how Christianity has informed our entire culture, just dismiss the whole tradition, as if any idiot would be able to recognize right from wrong if merely presented with "The Golden Rule" on a bumper sticker. No. It just doesn't work that way.
And fireangel - I don't mean to sound harsh with you in particular here. What I am saying I am directing at least as much to myself.
An excellent book on islam - written around 1920 and thus avoids all the PC.
The Mind of the Musuluman
http://musulmanbook.blogspot.com/
You can download the lot and read it at leisure.
The last chapter has advice for France and England in dealings with muslims. It could have been written yesterday.
To be able under all circumstances to practice five things constitutes perfect virtue; these five things are gravity, generosity of soul, sincerity, earnestness and kindness.
Confucius
Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC)
I'm not "into" Confucius but I do like some of his sayings and the quote I was looking for is basically the golden rule in slightly different words.
My point is ehtics are a matter of personal choice. God beliefs or no you choose your code of conduct. Here in Florida we have two faith based prisons. YES two prisons whose populations are mostly made up of inmates who claim to be Christians. Are they "real" Christians? I have no idea. Some people would say yes and others no.
Beth stated that Atheists didn't have the answer to getting muslims out of their religion so I quoted from apostates of islam. And followed that quote with some people need religion and others don't. It's a fact of life.
As for knowing what's in the bible I *do* know. I have no problems with it other than I don't think it's true.
Something I should have added about the Golden Rule. I am well aware that Muslim apostates such as Ali Sina are quite enthralled with the Golden Rule. But I think that's because it's such an alien concept to them, primarily because as Ali Sina has pointed out, the Golden Rule is completely missing from Islam.
I can quite imagine how those who have been raised in the ultimate "Us" vs "Them" ideology might well feel, upon encountering and understanding the "Golden Rule", that they had thereby achieved "enlightenment". But clearly this is nonsense, as much as I otherwise admire Ali Sina.
No - his enthusiasm for the Golden Rule as the most amazing thing since sliced bread is mainly an indication of the degree to which this concept is so noticeably lacking in the Muslim world, that it should generate so much enthusiasm.
Mr Sina's enthusiasm for this basic Christian moral precept should not be permitted to erase from the consciousness of westerners the fact that this has been a hard won truth, inculcated into our western brains through several millenia of Christian education. I'm quite happy that Mr Sina recognizes the importance of this insight. (I am also aware that Mr Sina is a huge fan of one of my own favorite writers, Jiddu Krishnamurti ("Truth is a pathless land")). But I do have to ask myself - what if there were no Christians left in the world to carry on the tradition of the Golden Rule from the original Christian sources, as if it were all so obvious and always had been. Then where would everyone be, Ali Sina included?
Let them double the price of oil! At that price alternative energy will become economically viable. The world would be less polluted and Arab terrorists and dictators less well funded. Give them what they want!
As an off topic aside:
Sunday's Sydney Morning Herald (Australia)ran a front page story: HOWARD MARKS HIS 10 YEARS AS PM BY TELLING MIGRANTS... LIVE HERE BE AUSTRALIAN. The leading story was basically a swipe at local Muslims for being so alien and confrontational. It's very encouraging that our politicians seem to be aware of the problem, and just as encouraging that it gets a sympathetic top heading in the newspaper. The name of Islam is mud here - from the top to the bottom of the social pyramid.
Caroline-
Don't forget George Bernard Shaw's quip:
"Do not do unto others what you would have them do unto you- their tastes may be different."
The Golden Rule is a good first step, but we have add the leavening of the Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Greek myths, the Bible (Talmud, Torah and New Testament), The Tripitaka of the Buddha, The Yoga-sutras of Patanjali, The Bhagavad Gita and Rig Veda, The Mumonkan, The Analects of Confucius, and The Book of the Way (Tao Te Ching).
And spice it with The Sayings of Heraclitus, Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, Guidebook of Epictetus, The Trial of Socrates (both , Plato's and Xenophon's versions), Aesop, Catullus, The Transformations of Lucius Apuleus, Li Po, Sappho, Ovid, Aristophanes, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Mencius, Rumi, Swift, Jakob Boehme, Angelus Silesius, Blake, Shelley, Thomas Paine, Thus Spake Zarathustra, Mark Twain, Dorothy Parker and Milan Kundera, among endless others.
Our culture isn't reducable to one map of myth or single sacred literature.
A thousand rich streams form the profound sea.
Christ's brilliance was built on the Proverbs and Psalms (often quoting them directly, and usually not footnoted for readers to get the full-effect, as in the utterance: "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?" spoken on the cross, which is a partial quote from the Old Tesatament... and only takes on its full sense when you know where it comes from, what the complete verse is, and how it originally ends...) as well as his own native parables' incandescence.
To ignore the divine spine of our civilization leaves an generation of intellectual jellyfish, whether the teachers geld the Bible from our common consciousness, or if they also overlook the Greco-Roman/Hindu foundations beneath the Hebrew-Christian blossoms that stand out so resplendently on these deep roots and weathered branches. Sunk in the archetypes of Prometheus, Attis-Osiris-Adonis, Khrishna, Bahu Bali, Siddhartha, Herakles, Thoth, Apollo, Diana, Hera, Tiamat, Ishtar, Venus, Zeus-Jupiter, and Gilgamesh.
Let's not overlook the entirety of our species' hard-won spiritual treasury.
We'll need ever bit of it to resist the onslaught of "submission"-fixated, mind-denying militants.
As if one answer is sufficent for the boundlessness we breathe-in at birth.
Beleif in religous myth is fast declining in the West all that's needed now is to drag the sand people kicking and screaming into the 21st century, but we all know thats not going to happen don't we.
Posted by Buddy : but we all know thats not going to happen don't we.
No they wont. And the more we try, the more entrenched they will become in the sand pit. The danger for us, just as it is for a person trying to rescue someone who is caught in a sandpit, that we can get sucked into it as well. This is particularly true when the victim ie the muslim, is determined to be in the sand pit.
Do read the The mind of the Musulman. It is very good. It is free and can be downloaded in its entirety.
profitsbeard: "Let's not overlook the entirety of our species' hard-won spiritual treasury."
Wow profitsbeard. The truth is that you had me from Hello! :-)
But your grasp of the myriad currents that all flow into the modern western understanding of "spirituality" is well, overwhelming! It is my personal feeling that Jesus was merely "enlightened" . One among many enlightened human beings that have graced our earth. But you have to look back at your entire post, as true as it may be, and ask yourself, "How many human beings on the planet today share my knowledge of these things?" And the fact is - very, very few. Certainly not me, although I grasp where you're coming from and I am a fairly educated person with a computer who has spent some time exploring these things.
So profitsbeard, as much as I understand where you're coming from, where you are coming from is simply too far advanced for where the average human being is standing right now.
But as time (roughly 2000 years) has amply demonstrated, simple Christian teaching is NOT too far advanced for the average human being to grasp.
And the choice that confronts us now is - do we try to reach billions of people with the erudite spiritual message you layed out in your post? Or do we simply decide to drag our kids to church on Sunday, to listen to sermons from the Bible?
I don't have children. But if I did, I would start dragging them to church on Sunday and I would be very selective in local church hopping until I happened upon someone giving an intelligent sermon. Furthermore, in my spare time, I would proceed to educate my children in all other manner of spiritual traditions and wisdom, but making a very special effort to always relate it back to the teachings of the person they would be most familiar with, namely Jesus ("Julie, can you tell me any way in which this person is saying the same thing that Jesus did?" would be my approach).
And the truth is, what is wrong with Jesus as a model of the perfect human being? Surely Buddha is just as good. But obviously both are far and away better models than Muhammad!
I guess what I'm saying is that while I appreciate your erudition in these matters, we're all better off just encouraging our friends and neighbors to drag their kids to church on Sunday. Jesus was a good man. A far better model than Muhammad for our children. Why can't we simply focus on that most obvious fact, without complicating things so darned much? And recognize at the same time, that when it comes to spiritual matters, most of us are pretty dumb and that there only a few human beings among us who have managed to get it right - Jesus included. I know without a doubt that if I had kids right now, I'd just take them to church on Sunday. It worked for me. It worked for generations before me. It's just not something I would dismiss is all I'm saying.
Caroline posted : Jesus was a good man. A far better model than Muhammad for our children.
You bet. In Sunday school, children are set to making drawings using crayons cartoons really. If they chose muhammed as the model, they would all kill each other before the service ended. Then there is that thing about 6 year old girls..
I think its best to leave muhammed out.
Caroline-
I agree.
Start from bedrock.
And build.
Petra. Or Peter. Not diffuse sand.
You don't give kids 100 lb. barbells their first day.
You help them struggle against the mysteries with loving ideals.
Every land has some. Navajo or Ainu.
Our's reaches it most well-known and sublime in the sayings and self-sacrifice of The Christ.
Islam is still back at Abraham killing Isaac.
And no angel ever intervening.
Their loss. Sadly.
can't America learn to ride a bike? What did Thomas Hardy know that America doesn't?
perhaps some of us do not live in the city?
l ask another question. why cant we drill on our own land, oceans.. lots of oil of the coast of the US and Canada..lots of coal.. we can do without arab oil..
what the heck...arabs are not giving the oil away.should nuke their oil, no good for anyone.. and they can starve for all l care!
Caroline -
On a different thread a couple of days ago I mentioned that I recently attended the civil partnership ceremony for the two men who work for me. Whilst both of them have, as you obviously do, a great respect for JC and His teachings of love neither of them would be very pleased to see you drag your hypothetical children to church. Far better that you avoid the organised and hate filled religionists and just teach them yourself - from the book and from your own obvious and loving spirituality.
These two men started work with me about seven months ago and I have to say that listening to them and their experiences of and in our world has completely altered my own knee-jerk Anglicanism.
profitsbeard:
"Start from bedrock.
And build.
Petra. Or Peter. Not diffuse sand.
You don't give kids 100 lb. barbells their first day.
You help them struggle against the mysteries with loving ideals."
Children do start with sand in the schoolyeard, don't they? Perhaps that's what makes them able to grasp the distinction between sand and rock? Basic elements. Very simple stuff.
But in any case, yes, we need to focus on the children. And children do need a father, the "perfect man" to idealize and model themselves after.
I guess the question for western parents is:
Who shall that perfect man be, Jesus? or Muhammad?
If you're undecided, better read up on Muhammad is all I can say...
The fundamental difference between Christianity and mohammedanism is surely aptly summed up by the 'Stabat Mater'.
One man died on the cross so that everyone else could live unafraid and one Mother grieved so that all others could find some comfort from her loss - that's Christianity.
Many men must die so that only the mohammedan can live unafraid and many mothers must always grieve no matter what their faith - that's mohammedanism.
I may not have much belief left after all these years but the differences between positice Christianity and soul destroying mohammedanism are still obvious to me.
Stabat Mater dolorosa,
Iuxta crucem lacrimosa
Dum pendebat Filius.
(Pope Innocent III or St Bonaventure
in the Jacopone da Todi (C.1230-1306) version.
Certiorari: "neither of them would be very pleased to see you drag your hypothetical children to church. Far better that you avoid the organised and hate filled religionists and just teach them yourself - from the book"
Certiorari - I don't know what to say to that other than that I was raised so Catholic that I lived near the Vatican as a child and personally met the Pope (Paul VI) and yet I was never taught to hate homosexuals. My gut reaction to your post is to caution against throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Especially when our very civilization is at stake.
My gut reaction to your post is to caution against throwing out the baby with the bathwater. - posted by Caroline
Here's the section from the Catechism of the Catholic Church on this. No hatred mentioned.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2357
2358 reads in part: "They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives..."
PS - Certiorari: "Kneejerk Anglicanism" ... practiced by members of the Ministry of Silly Walks? ;)
"Far better that you avoid the organised and hate filled religionists"
I as a Christian, have never encountered such people. Many I agree, focus on one partucular sin and decide to make that their sin to hate. Taking kids to church is a great idea, of course knowing the bible yourself will help you decide if what the preacher is speaking is proper. Postings above seem to indicate that JC is just an "enlightened" being, a good example. Well, I say that Christianity is unique, please read here. It is brief.
http://www.equip.org/free/CP0211.htm
Shinolite, that was a good link you put in. I certainly could not have expressed it better.
Thanks
robert -
i think it is too simplistic to say that the entire house of suad plays a double game.
some might be. others might not be.
imho: a too simplistic reduction cannot yield the most effective policy.
unless you advicate nuking mecca, or entirely replacing the house of saud with a hashemite king, then one has to accept the saudis.
that being the most likely case, for now at the very least, it is best if we devise polcies which make the saudis increasingly choose our side, and not the enemy's.
empowering a shia iraqis helps, as does increasing our OIL independence.
toward that end i think we should be:
(1) agggressively drilling in the gulf and off the coast of california, and in alaska; and
(2) introducing binding UNSC resolutions which demote member nations which practice polygamy, misogyny, forced marriage and endogamous/consanguinous marriage to OBSERVER status and make them INELIGIBVLE for loans from the IMF and the World Bank.
I believe these pre-islamic cultural practices contribute to the impoverishment, the diathesis for violence, the xenophobic and the anti-modern policies of the nations which allow them.
and I belive these practices VIOLATE the spirit and the letter on the UN Declaration of Universal; Human Rights.
changing these practices might begin to change other attitudes which grow out of these practices.
ANY culture which sanctions the male members of a family murdering a female member of the family to restore family honor (honor-killings) is certainly going to be a culture which will sanction genocide of people who are not members of the tribe, or of the ummah. to make the lkatter unthinkabke we have to make the prior unthinkable.
this might be a mechanism for forcing islam to change/modernize/reform.
nations which practice or allow forms of slavery and honor killings do not belong in the club of international law-abiding nations, nor do they deserve any of the benefits of membership.
they deserve to be shunned.
just an idea. one that i feel should become a movement.
But the thing I realize now in retrospect is how much I actually absorbed through all those boring Sunday sermons I was subjected to. - posted by Caroline
That, in part, is what got me to back into being a practicing Catholic a number of years ago.
Sounds like you haven't been in a church in a while; believe me, it's a completely different vibe when you're there out of your own free will. I know I'm wildly overstepping my boundaries by saying this, but tomorrow might be a fine opportunity to check out a Mass. If you're shopping around for a church, it might be good to start with what you know.
Caroline,
and Raleigh,NC area readers
Trying to form a group of LGF/JW/DW devotees interested in spreading the LGF/JW message into the local marketplace of ideas.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RTP911
Shinoliite -
I know 2357 through 2359. Just a few months ago I would have said that they were excellent and reasonable statements. Now, having known two men who are deeply in love with one another and who have been for years, having listened to them speak about their lives and their philosophies and having seen them in action as caring human beings in many circumstances I think that 2357 through 2359 are some of the most disgusting, patronising and hate filled words I have ever read - words deliberately designed to assert the heterosexual superiority over not just homosexual and lesbian people but also, if one reads on, over women, too. What makes it all the worse is that its statements are not based in objective fact but in medieval suppositions on the nature of sexuality.
Yes, but such a walk is caused by a disorder called hassocks knee acquired in unheated English Churches.
disciple -
Thank-you for the link. I could, however, argue with you about the uniqueness of Christianity unless you mean that it has put the ancient legends together in a unique way. Much of many of the religions that we have today is just much older religious myths rehashed and the Christian myth/legend construct is really no different. As for eye-witnesses writing down their recollections ... oh dear, oh dear. Very little evidence to support that contention I'm afraid. In another thread quite recently I touched upon the difficulties involved in the recension of ancient manuscripts.
However, none of that can alter the basic fact that overall Christianity is a force for good in the world as compared with mohammedanism, and that Christianity underpins much of our moral code today and cannot just be chucked away lightly. I am afraid that as a Christian I have often encountered hate filled religionists in the organised side of my faith - that is one of the reasons why I now seldom go to Church.
If you both really do think that 2357 through 2359 really does sum up the corect way to view homosexual and lesbian people then I am really sorry for you but even sorrier for them having to deal with you.
North Carolina is a good place to organize. Carl Ernst and others at the University have promoted the "lyrical suras" version of the Qur'an produced by the propogandist-for-Islam Michael Sells. One would love to hear from those who, as innocent students, were taken in by him over the past few decades at Haverford, and just now have begun to read about Islam for themselves, to read the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira, to learn about the treatment under Islam of the dhimmis, to find out the real, as opposed to Sells's version, of Islam and its conquests.
How many such former students, who once gushed over him (the way students do, because students have nothing to compare such a teacher with, and are easily taken in) have now realized with horror what they were fed, and how it worked on them?
And how many of those Universtiy of North Carolina freshmen forced to read Sells's version, with the challenge to that forcing being presented as merely the act of crazed right-wing fundamentalist know-nothings, fresh from the Scopes Trial, no doubt, instead of what many of them were -- people alarmed at the sanitized version, that is the propagandistic version, of the Qur'an, all the worrisome parts excisted, and then made required reading for those incoming freshmen, so full of enthusiasm, and hope, and so badly taken advantage of.
And then there is Duke, which lent itself to some "Palestinian" hate orgy, and where the decline in the teaching of certain subjects -- wasn't it Duke where Frank Lenticchia finally came to his senses about teaching students to love reading, and finally threw out all the theory? Wasn't it Duke where Stanley Fish of David-Lodge fame got his start? And Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick?
Oh, there's a lot of work to be done in North Carolina.
But keep in mind that it is also the state of Rita Hayworth -- there's a museum devoted to her. And the state of Walter Clay Lowdermilk, the famous agronomist, from Liberty, North Carolina, whose book "Palestine: Land of Promise" about the fantastic land reclamation projects conducted by the Jews in what had been a place of total ruin and desolation, deserves --along with its photographs from the 1930s -- to be republished.
Yes, North Carolina is a good place to form such a group. And to the extent that those at Fort Bragg, who need to know about Islam more than almost anybody, can be affected as well, and then fromo Fort Bragg to Fort Jackson in South Carolina, and from Fort Jackson to Fort Benning in Georgia -- well, you get my southward drift.
Start up the engines.
Cert - as always, I respect your opinion (not just when the Kentucky Fried Movie is involved). We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Hugh
Alas Bush lacks your erudite education-what was he doing smoking pot or drinking or both during his student years? At one time any man [as opposed to woman] could dream of becoming President of U.S. System is now flawed so that only a rich guy/gal or with rich backers can reach the Whitehouse. Speaking of which-see Madam
Hilary has $10 million plus her hubby's ex aides-one known as the 'Ragin' Cajun' to direct her campaign in 2008. Her 'ol man' is over here charming everyone [apart from moi] in little ol Noo Zealand which he says he 'loves.' Of course he loves us, people are paying $2,000 a pop to hear 'I did not have sex with that woman' Clinton to give them a smile and 'feely' good sensation. Look at School Marm Helen who positively drools not to mention her body language when face to face with this smarmy charmer. All in all, Mr Clinton will make a cool
million in Speaking Engagements in N.Z and Australia and heaven knows what else he is endorsing...Does this go to Hilary's campaign fund or is Bill salting it away in a private Swiss Bank Account for his old age?
Have always thought Bin Laden's objective was SAUDI ARABIA AND AMERICA, information from that most secretive of countries has always been denied or censored.Whether the West likes it or not the days of the Saudi Princelings are numbered : as Iraq slides into Civil War, Al Quaeda will relentessly attack on two fronts.
I do not see any way apart from a miracle that America will be able to contain sectarian hatred
and violence not to mention they ain't exactly loved by the Iraqis...
Shinoliite -
Good idea; I can get quite worked up about the idiotic (to me) teachings of the Papacy on certain issues. I prefer to follow a more (to me)loving interpretation of Christ's teachings, or perhaps just a more wishy-washy Anglican interpretation. However, if we ever have the pleasure of meeting face to face I have a suspicion that we could have a d--n fine conversation on this and many other things.
I must to bed, I'm afraid. Got to drive into the City on the morrow and be nice to aged relatives. Being head of the familly can be such a bind on occassions.
I am reminded of Yeats:
"Old, learned, respectable bald heads
Edit and annotate the lines
That young mentossing on their beds,
Rhymed out in love's despair
To flatter beauty's ignorant ear."
but then he also said:
"An aged man is bu a paltry thing,
A tattered coat upon a stick ..."
No more. Goodnight, sweet prince.
And apologies for the typos.
Certioriari,you write well.
I must repond though to your comments. I have a dear friend that is a lesbian, I spent many years in musical theater and knew many homosexual men. I befriended them and certainly did not treat them with anything but respect. However, I am a "believing" Christian, so when something is called a sin I believe it to be. I have remained celibate for the last five years as I am a single man. A burden just like being homosexual is. I overcome through my faith.
"As for eye-witnesses writing down their recollections ... oh dear, oh dear." Condescending comment thank you.
"If you both really do think that 2357 through 2359 really does sum up the corect way to view homosexual and lesbian people then I am really sorry for you but even sorrier for them having to deal with you." Insulting comment, thanks again.
"I am afraid that as a Christian I have often encountered hate filled religionists in the organised side of my faith - that is one of the reasons why I now seldom go to Church."
I recommend going back so you can be part of the cure not just a sideline judgementalist as you accuse the church of being. In fact why bother calling yourself a Christian if the manuscripts are so problem filled what can you believe if anything from them?
I take up this case with you only because you are calling yourself a Christian. Christians believe that the NT is accurate and trustworthy, or else why bother?
Just call yourself a theist that happens to like certain passages from the bible. Unless God is also a myth.
For now though we have a common enemy that wishes to destroy Christains and theists/atheists alike.
So, we can argue these points later. Lets roll!
Peace.
Caroline-
Don't think I'd let kids read about Mohammad until they were old enough.
Around the time when a neighborhood cop usually comes to their classroom and gives the standard warning about "avoiding men with candy", etc...
In a way, Mo is a perfect example of what to avoid.
Certoriari-
Kids need things to emulate and to rebel against.
A real church can often be both.
Worked for me.
Zero gravity atrophies.
Incase anyone is interested.
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.html
disciple -
I am more and more inclined to think that God is just a myth and perhaps I am naught more than a Christ leaning theist. I would also take issue with you about calling perfectly normal sexual behaviour of any sort a 'sin', but not just now. Nonetheless, you are correct - we must make common cause against a common enemy.
I am reminded of two quotes, however (well, you know me!):
"An honest God is the noblest work of man". Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-1899)
and
"To become a popular religion, it is only necessary for a superstition to enslave a philosophy". Dean Inge (1860-1954)
Please accept my apologies, I did not mean either to insult or offend you, just to point out that there is a great deal of extremely well-founded academic debate about precisely where much of our Christian heritage came from in reality.
Now, as I said to Shinoliite, I must to bed.
Yeats, again I'm afraid. It just seems so apposite:
"... a gay goodnight and quickly turn away".
On the UAE...Al Qaeda has fully infiltrated them and Bush thinks the UAE are our friends..they are just waiting for an opportunity like the ports:
An anonymous source has provided the Northeast Intelligence Network with a translated copy of a recovered Al Qaeda document from Afghanistan dated 14 May/June 2002. The text informs officials of the UAE that "we have infiltrated your security, censorship, and monetary agencies along with other agencies that should not be mentioned."
In light of the current debacle with Dubai Ports World, and fears of security vulnerabilities at 21 American port facilities, this document is further evidence of the need for a full, no-stone-left-unturned review of the transaction and its implications.
The full translated text of the Al Qaeda document recovered in Afghanistan:
In the Name of Allah the Most Compassionate and Mericful
Number ________ Date 14/May/June/2002
Al Jihad Qaida's
{Get the idolaters out of Arab island}
To: Officials in the United Arab Emirates and especially the two emirates of
Abu-Dhabi and Dubai:
We have come to know definitely that the Emirate country is committing acts of
injustice against the striving youth of the Emirates and others who sympathize
with us in order to appease the Americans' wishes which include spting,
persecution, and detainments. The United Emirates authorities have recently
detained a number of Mujahideen and handed them over to suppressive
organizations in their country in addition to having a number of them still in its
custody. Undoubtedly, these practices bring the country into a fighting ring in
which it cannot endure or escape from its consequences especially since the
Emirates' social composition is the most productive, and very explosive.
You are well aware that we have infiltrated your security, censorship, and
monetary agencies along with other agencies that should not be mentioned.
Therefore, we warn of the continuation of practicing such policies, which do not
serve your inteests and will only cost you many problems that will place you in
an embarrassing state before your citizens. In addition, it will prove your
agencies' immobility and failure. Also, we are confident that you are fully
aware that your agencies will not get to the same high level of your American
Lords. Furthermore, your intelligence will not be cleverer than theirs, and your
censorship capabilities are not worth much against what they have reached. In
spite of all this Allah has granted us success to get even with them and harm
them.
However, you are an easier target than them; your homeland is exposed to us.
There are many vital interests that will hurt you if we decide to harm them,
especially, since you rely on shameless tourism in your economic income!!!
Finally, our policies are not to operate in your homeland and/or tamper with your
security because we are occupied with others which we consider are enemies of
this nation. If you compel us to do so, we are prepared to postpone our program
for a short period and allocate some time for you.
Therefore, we ask you to release all the Mujahideen detainees since September.
The author of this official communication from Al-Qaeda to the government of the UAE :
أسامة بن
Usama bin Laden.
I have not met Osama.
I don't know anyone who has met Osama.
No one can "prove" that Osama really exists.
Therefore, since I have not met Osama; nor has anyone that I know; and I have never been given "proof" that Osama ever existed (the proof offered was probably doctored by people who believe and want to believe Osama exists) I can only conclude that -- Osama does not exist.
savetheus - you remembered! I checked back for you the last time (when your link didn't work) but you never came :-(
In any case, I just sent you an email.
Shinoliite - you're not wildly overstepping any boundaries in suggesting I go to church. It's something I've been thinking about doing for awhile. Even though I don't have children, I think it's important that westerners start filling up their churches on Sunday, or else the empty buildings will be converted to mosques before we know it. It's a small thing to do really in defense of our civilization.
It doesn't have to be this way. Bush, Kerry, Gore. We can do better. NO man is perfect. But they're men who put America first. The Gipper, may G-d bless his soul. He put our country first. Deeply religious, but not in your face with it. FDR. Lincoln. Our country was at its lowest ebb after four years of Jimmy Carter, but a great man raised our spirits. Reagan was not perfect. He made mistakes, but, unlike Bush, he corrected them, coming clean with our country. And we respected his sincerity, his decency, his putting America first, his belief in the noble purpose of our country . . . our shining city on a hill. Some leaders are trapped in their own mistakes--Bush with Iraq, LBJ with Viet Nam. Look at all the dead on the stark Viet Nam Memorial. All those decent Americans who died. Whatever your perspective on this war, our leaders at the time knew(they knew)it was all farce, couldn't be won, and yet they took the path of least resistance. The echo of history is strong. Sadly, W will always be a lame duck. He will never admit democratization of the middle east is farce, never admit he was wrong, never admit thousands died for his mistake. LBJ to his credit suffered greatly. You could see it on his face. But he couldn't admit his was wrong. What we need are true leaders, wise men and women. Tough, wise but honest. The times makes the man, and there is hope in that.
disciple -
"Only a little more
I have to write,
Then I'll give o'er,
And bid the world Good-night."
(Robert Herrick [1591-1674] 'His poetry, his Pillar')
I knew I had it somewhere:
http://www.evilbible.com/
and now, really, Goodnight all. (Slight kneebend a la Dixon of Dock Green).
I am not Muslim, but I resent that Muslim peoples are portrayed as corrupt and stupid and identify with terrorists.
I've never met a terrorist, but I have met many Muslim people who identify with the purpose of terrorists. I think this insulting to followers of Islam, but it is a prevalent media view.
Terrorists do not speak for Muslims. Terrorists do not understand the intricacies of Islamic faith. Terrorists have killed many Muslim peoples.
It is a stupid trick of the international media to portray peoples by their worst. It concerns me that innocent people die as a result.
Certiorari
Been there done that, there is so much more.
Why claim JC is anything if it is all evil and lieing and unloving? Mohammed must be just as good or just as bad. What can you trust? Just yourself? That will lead to tyranny for sure.
I have read the bible and that link is nothing new.
I have met many Muslim people who identify with the purpose of terrorists.
and
Terrorists do not speak for Muslims. - posted by David_Daniel_Ball
Which one is it?
Terrorists do not understand the intricacies of Islamic faith.
Yes, they do. Intimately and literally. That's the problem.
Stick around. If you'll pardon the pun, we'll make you a believer.
I am not Muslim, but I resent that Muslim peoples are portrayed as corrupt and stupid and identify with terrorists. ...... I've never met a terrorist, but I have met many Muslim people who identify with the purpose of terrorists. I think this insulting to followers of Islam, but it is a prevalent media view. ..... Terrorists do not speak for Muslims. Terrorists do not understand the intricacies of Islamic faith. Terrorists have killed many Muslim peoples. .... It is a stupid trick of the international media to portray peoples by their worst. It concerns me that innocent people die as a result.
Posted by: David Daniel Ball at February 25, 2006 11:42 PM
Another leftist liberal again espouses the leftist dogma of the the peaceful Muslims.
How many innocents were killed in the Towers on 9/11 by peaceful Muslims?????
How may innocents have been killed in Israel by peaceful Muslims?????
How many innocents have been killed in Africa by peaceful Muslims????
How many innocents were killed in Beslan by peaceful Muslims?????
How many more Americans will be killed by peaceful Muslims in the next attack on America?????
David Danile Ball, you brainwashed leftist liberal, you need to pull your head out of your nether regions and wake up and realize that these peaceful Muslims intend on conquering the world and converting you to Islam or murdering you and your family.
Thank God for the recognition by most that there is not peace to be had with Islam and all Muslims.
Never believe what a Muslim says about peace and living with non-Muslims even if they are your best friend, because if they are a Muslim, they have to convert you to Islam or murder you per the dictates of the Quran. There is no other choice for a Muslim. There is no peace with Islam
If you belive that Muslims are so peace loving, then why don't you move to the Middle East and see how long you survive.
The war with Islam is inevitable.
The Texican.
Freedom. The only choice at any cost.
Beth
And so - we are left with a choice. CHOOSE}}} Peace or War!
Peace is not a choice. There is only war or submit to slavery and death. The peace of Islam is the grave.
Caroline, Shinolite & Certiorari,
Wow, what have I missed? Caroline, I think your posts that started all this are brilliant but I feel compelled to put in my own two cents.
I went to twelve years of Catholic school, married my high school boyfriend in the church and brought up my children in the faith, who are now grown, with two who have remained strong, one who fell away but who his now back and searching for answers inside our faith. (And I have prayed long and hard for this.)
When I got out of high school, many of my friends went into the world and left the church behind. I did not. I decided to investigate my faith further and studied it, dissected it, contemplated it. I love history and incorporated it into my studies. I read about the courage and fortitude of Catholics throughout history and absorbed the magnitude of their sacrifices. I've read about how the Mohammadans were repelled by the praying of the Rosary at Lepanto, how the Communists were repelled when the mothers in Chile took to the streets praying their Rosaries in the 1960's and the tanks turned around and left. I've read of the Miracle of the Sun in Fatima, Portugal in 1917, where the sun left it's position in the heavens, danced around and changed colors and came so close to the earth that many of the tens of thousands of witnesses thought it was the end of the world, that was printed in many secular pro-Marxist newspapers throughout Portugal because it could not be denied. I've read Fr. Devlin's biography, "Cha..." all about his time helping the boat people of Viet Nam, the sacrifices he made, especially suffering a nasty skin condition he developed because the water available for the people to drink was so filty. He ate the same things they did, lived their same lives because they were human beings and worthy to be loved and cared for. Of course there is Mother Theresa who showed her respect for the dignity of every human being, no matter how lowly , rejected or looked down upon, by caring for the most wretched of cast off peoples in India.
I read stories of the saints lives everyday because they inspire me. They help me to see what others have been through, what they have overcome and achieved and strengthen my belief that maybe I could do the same. For example, look at St. Peter. He does not look good on paper. He doubted Jesus when he walked on the water, and fell; he shot his mouth off at the Transfiguration, and was rebuked by the Father; He promised to stick by Our Lord, and argued with Him when Jesus told him he would deny Him thrice, and then proceeded to do just that. Not a good record. But St. Peter had a sincere heart and though at times he was weak, Jesus saw his potential and insisted on him leading the church after the Resurrection and St. Pete didn't let Him down, suffering a martyr's death for his faith. I'm also enthralled by St. Thomas More's faith, trying to avoid getting pinned down on giving an opinion demanded by Henry VIII, but when push comes to shove, giving up an illustrious career as Chancellor of England, losing his wealth, earning the scorn of his wife and in the end, dying a martyr's death because he couldn't tell a lie his conscience would abide.
I think my favorite story about a modern day St. is that of St. Maximilian Kolbe, who had a special devotion to the Blessed Mother, and who traded places with a man who was chosen to die of starvation at Auschwitz in retaliation for the escape of several prisoners. When the man was chosen to die he started to cry because he was the father of a large family. When Fr. Kolbe heard this he offered to change places with the man and during the two week ordeal that followed he comforted and inspired the other nine prisones who were also condemned to die. When discussing the merits of the Golden Rule, I can't think of a better example than this. That took place in 1941, when my parents, who are still alive, were in their 20's. In other words, contemporary times.
As I've been strugggling to read Ibn Warraq's "Leaving Islam," the thing that strikes me is the tragedy that many of the people leaving Islam get out with their lives but absolutely no belief that God does exist and no moral compass to try and find Him. And this is unacceptable, because of all people who need to spend time in the loving presence of Our Lord, it is those who have escaped the nightmare of Islam and lived to tell about it.
No matter what people think of Religion, organized or otherwise, to be in the presence of Christ, who waits for us, longingly to come to Him, with open arms, is to be in the safest, most peaceful place on the planet. To deny that He exists because one has not experienced Him is to negate the wisdom of millions of people who have experienced His presence and the peace that He offers all of us. But He is such a gentleman/gentle God that He does not force it upon us. He let's us choose. He will defend your right to reject Him. And that is one of the best reasons that Christianity will eternally trump Islam, every time.
"Once you go Vatican, you can't go back again!" - the Simpsons
On that note, goodnight! :)
Certiorari:
Christianity,
God loves the world and wants the world to live in peace, but God gave man the right of self determination and it is up to man to decide how man will live. Prayers can work wonders but man has to work with God to overcome the evil in the world. Certiorari, you must not have experienced being in the SPIRIT. It compares to no other experience except maybe the birth of your children and grandchildren.
What is shocking the leftist liberals and others in America is that Christian America is feed up with the left, ACLU and political correctness and whenever we are attacked we will voice our opinions about the outrage and seek to have the outrage nullified such as the Holiday Trees at Lowes. Lowes received more emails and telephone calls about this slap in the face to Christians than on any other item. I no longer purchase from Lowes and Lowes was my store of choice for construction materials and I so voiced my opinion to Lowes.
Gays,
Most Christians, Jews and peaceful religions of the world and civilized people including gays are kind and considerate toward each other. There are always exceptions to this.
Most religious people including Christians are tolerant of gays as long as gays do not try to foster their life style as acceptable for it isn’t an acceptable life style. If person wants to live this way it is their choice.
In America we live in a live and let live atmosphere of peace even with some stumbles along the way.
Too many times our pet peeves interfere with our common goal of saving America from the vile and evil threat of Islam.
Prepare be armed be ready.
The Texican.
Freedom. The only choice at any cost.
A goodnight from Blake:
"And we are put on earth a little space,
That we may learn to bear the beams of love"
Muslim logic eludes me: $60 a barrel is certainly stealing but I'm not getting any richer...
My muslim freinds, who are undoubtedly moderate, reasonable Islam personified, are convinced beyond argument of the Mohammedan model of economic theory.
I don't mean Britain's flourishing Sharia banking system. Rather, Mohammedan economic theory is simply the notion that the customer is always wrong. Or more accurately, the customer is always an instrument of Satan, working for the evil joos against the inevitable and rightful glory of the long-suffering Ummah.
It works like this: We spend our hard-earned wages on the fuel we have to burn to go to work to earn that money, which then goes into the pockets of Muslim oil barons. Some of it goes to our govts as tax, which is then passed on to Muslims as "aid". The rich Muslims then invest that money, by their own volition, in the places where they get the best returns - in the West. So now the Muslim has the wealth AND the foreign economic infrastructure, and its associated fiscal returns, plus increasing socio-political influence and market prestige.
Sounds rosy? Not at all. This is simply daylight robbery. The only beneficiary is the evil greedy decadent West and its hated jooish overlords. WE ARE ROBBING THEM BLIND. Raping their beautiful daughters, as Galloway would say.
It's nuts. If I try to point out the obvious, they get all angry and start going on about how I don't understand the "petrodollar", like there's some magical inverse relationship that's beyond my simple powers of reckoning. But it seems to me that according to Mohammedan economic theory, buying my groceries at a Muslim-owned store is tantamount to outright theft of Muslim wealth.
So here's my entry for the emancipated Mohammedan recipe book:
Duck a l'orange with shallots, mushrooms, auberguines & lobster thermidore aux crevettes with a mornay sauce garnished with truffle pate & brandy:
Ingredients:
2 whole buckets of fresh sand, washed.
2oz dried sand, finely ground
4lbs self-raising sand
1 cup white mica & feldspar sand
2oz quartz-rich or volcanic sand (depending on taste)
1lb crushed or ground tourmaline sand
1 or 2 teaspoons zircon sand
1 cup creamed rutile sand
4oz pyroxene sand
2 tablespoons monazite sand
1/2 cup of glauconite sand for garnish
Method:
Mix the fresh sand with the dried sand, then add the mica & feldspar sand, pour into a mold and leave to simmer over a lump of smouldering camel-shit for 20 mins.
Place the self-raising sand in a hole in the sand and carefully stir in the quartz sand, then add the rutile sand, monazite sand and the zircon sand. Once thoroughly mixed pour this over to the cooked loaf of sand and leave to stand in the sand. Whisk together the tourmaline sand and pyroxene sand until the mixture takes on a coarse sandy texture. Liberally sprinkle with glauconite sand, and serve with rancid camel milk, shrivelled dates and a side-order of sand. Serves 70-80 head-chopping ululating sand-pirates screaming "aluha akbar" as they choke on their precious hard-earned sand.
Regarding the current impetus for rediscovering our Christian roots; Until 7/7 I was a proud athiest, or even anti-theist. Now that i know the truth about Islam i've a newfound respect for the virtues of Christianity.
I expect a lot of Britons feel likewise.
Growing up I always found Catholicism kind of creepy, too austere, somber. I didn't get the Trinity, or the fascination with Mary. I still don't, but I at least understand it a little better. But most of all I know I have Christianity to thank for the fact that I live in a free, liberal society with equal rights, secular jurisprudence, and Micky D's (pbuh). My Moslem freinds will never know the pleasures of a bacon'n'egg sarnie with brown sauce, or pork bangers'n'mash with sage gravy. Oh and the infinite love and compassion of Our Lord Jesus Christ. If I ever get laden with a family, I'll definitely bring 'em up Catholic. Even though I never believed, it's one of those things you can't really apreciate till you're old enough, like education generally. Now I'm trying to convince my Muslim mates to compare the New Testament to what they know of their own scriptures (which is virtually zilch). No joy so far, though one of 'em started looking at a translated Qur'an - with some notable surprise. Small steps.
Many have posted about the real threat of Islam to America and the lack of our federal government to recognize this threat and take action.
I believe in God, Family, America and the American way of life including fighting for and even dying for God, Family and Country to save them from Islam.
Please take a minute and consider what it really means to commit to fight and die for God, Family and Country.
The American military will take care of the war overseas, but Americans will have to take care of the war in America with Islam. The war against Islam in America will be up-close, personal and violent.
To be able to fight Islam, you have to be prepared be armed be ready."
Prepare:
Have on hand food, water, clothing, medical supplies, radios, batteries, CB's or two ways, camping goods, arms and ammo, fuel, etc.
If you live in a metropolitan area, have an escape plan and a place to go if you can, if not know how to prepare your home to be defendable. Have a plan for escape if you are at work and your family is in the suburbs. Plan for the most likely occurrences when the war starts. Drive your route at all times of day and night to understand how to get out if you need to.
Learn how to fight and protect your family and country.
Learn where the mosques are in your area.
Learn where Muslim businesses are in your area.
Learn where the Muslims live in your area.
Preparing for war is expensive, but what is the life of your family and survival of your Country worth to you??? What are you willing to sacrifice to defeat Islam???
What will Islam give you if Islam defeats America???? Death…..
Be armed:
If you do not have arms, buy your family arms and ammo and learn how to use them. The first arms to purchase are shotguns, then handguns then rifles.
Be ready:
The war with Islam can start at any time.
Are you prepared, armed and ready for the war with Islam????? It will be too late after the war starts.
I truly believe that the Islam will attack America and the civilized countries with WMD's, nukes, bombs and armed men women and children.
My soul cries for America and the world for what is coming. We can win but we have to be prepared be armed and be ready.
God give us the strength to defeat Islam and take the world forward.
The Texican.
Freedom. The only choice at any cost.
Totally OT.
But I feel it is important. There was an earlier poster who was wondering what else could be done besides posting on blogs. "Voting doesn't work. Been there. Done that."
Let me have a moment of your time. I want to sell you something. YOU. If you are here, you are probably more intelligent than many of your elected officials. Why couldn't YOU do their job?
I'm not talking about voting. I'm talking about RUNNING. Don't start big. (Ok, Robert, start BIG.) Look around locally. There are City Council members, School Board members, Commissioners, Planners, Dog Catchers. You must have a high school diploma. You must pay a minimal filing fee, somewhere between $75 to $150. Most positions won't allow having a criminal record. Many positions are part-time. Some have small or no compensation. You must have patience to deal with bureaucracy, users, and losers. Most positions with minimal compensation have perks.
If you have ever voted, you will have noticed many positions are running unopposed. WHY are these people unopposed? Most of these politicians have constituents who would kill to be able to vote for someone else. These positions are consistently filled by the same type of brownnosers/egomaniacs who are in it for what they can get.
Do you know your local politicians? Do you know their viewpoints? Why not?
We the People need to take back our Country and our Government. It is up to us. Think about it. Sleep on it. Do what you can. It was asked, I gave an answer.
Letters, phone calls, emails to politicians, letters to various editors are still great. This is better.
Isabella, all I can say is what a wonderful uplifting post. I am Christian not of catholic denomination but I can say to you, Amen!
Thank you.
Powerlineblog commented on this latest AQ attack in SA.The writer at that blog characterized the attack as a feeble and desperate attempt by AQ to show they are still viable in SA.
_________________________________________________
We have noted on several occasions the success that the government of Saudi Arabia has had in fighting al Qaeda and killing its leaders in that country. I think that's the context of today's unsuccessful attack on the Saudis' biggest oil processing facility.
What seems noteworthy is how hopeless the attack was. It involved two vehicles loaded with explosives and driven by would-be suicide bombers:
Two cars tried to drive through the gates of the outer fence of the heavily secured, sprawling facility, which has three rows of security fences, Interior Ministry spokesman Lt. Gen. Mansour al-Turki told The Associated Press.
Guards opened fire on the cars, and both vehicles exploded, al-Turki said. He said two guards were critically wounded.
It's hard to see how the attackers could have expected the cars to get through one layer of security, let alone three. Which suggests that, assuming al Qaeda was behind the attack, they are desperate to show some sign of life in Saudi Arabia, even at the expense of inevitable failure.
"God Willing"
They will never figure it out after all these years that God is NOT willing.
There will be no 72 Virgins waiting for them..maybe 72 Virginians..
Terrorists do not speak for Muslims. Terrorists do not understand the intricacies of Islamic faith. Terrorists have killed many Muslim peoples.
It is a stupid trick of the international media to portray peoples by their worst. It concerns me that innocent people die as a result.
Posted by: David Daniel Ball
And Leftwing moonbats are clueless. Maybe if you actually studied up on what Islam teaches you wouldn't make such idiotic statements.
There is a trail of blood 1400 years long that shows you what islam is all about. If you are too lazy to study Islam's "scripture", then at least study the example they left behind throughout history.
The best example of what Islam is all about is proved by their actions. just about every war in the past 1400 years was a result of Islam, as are 99% of all wars today.
And before you launch your "what about the crusades" rant, those were a response to the Islamic crusades, a defensive action. If it wasn't for Islam slaughtering,looting,raping and pillaging their way across the M.E. and into the holylands, they would never have happened.
Terrorists, are the most faithfull muslims of all, they follow the "scripture" (Satan's bible)
to the letter.
Wake up!
Al-Qaeda is doing the West's job. We must have had long ago abandoned oil from Islamic sources. Saudi use the oil proceeds racked from America to finance jihad - not directly, but creating a welcoming atmosphere of Wahhabism. So, let applaud the bin Laden guy when he destroys Saudi oil facilities. And read Obadiah Shoher at www.SamsonBlinded.org. Obadiah for years called on the West to strip Islamists of the oil profits. American corporate interests are more powerful than plain national interest. We boycotted militarist Japan before WWII, but now accommodate Saudi Arabia. What a shame!
Christianity, and most other religions are religions of tolerance and love, and followers of these religions believe they'll go to Hell if they commit evil in this life, or if they're reincarnated, they'll suffer in their next lives. There are certain places in the world I would have liked to visit, like the great Pyramids and Bali. But thanks to the brutality and hatred of Islam, I will never get to see them.
How different and how much better things would be if Islam never existed. We wouldn't have needed to spend vast sums on counterterrorism and fighting terrorists - money that would otherwise have gone into improving our lives. We would be able to visit the Valley of the Kings without fear of being machine-gunned by crazies, and visit Bali without fear of being blown up. The Middle East would have been like Mediterranean Europe in atmosphere, the wealthiest place on the planet, and it would be possible to browse around the ruins of ancient Babylon without fear. This is all out of bounds for Westerners who value their lives, and the fear is that much of Western Europe by 2100 will be akin to the Middle East today with dire consequences for our grandchildren and great-grandchildren, courtesy of the PC disease which has infested us for over 30 years, and how ironic it is that the places we call "the cradle of civilization" are today amongst the most backward and barbaric of places on the planet, again courtesy of Islam.
I am a Methodist, and know what a certain Methodist preacher, John Wesley, wrote about Islam. "Ever since the religion of Islam appeared in the world, the espousers of it...have been as wolves and tigers to all other nations, rending and tearing all that fell into their merciless paws, and grinding them with their iron teeth; that numberless cities are raised from the foundation, and only their name remaining; that many countries, which were once as the garden of God, are now a desolate wilderness; and that so many once numerous and powerful nations are vanished from the earth! Such was, and is at this day, the rage, the fury, the revenge, of these destroyers of human kind". He was right, and his words are just as valid today, if not more so, than when they were written 250 years ago.
I think Mr. Fitzgerald makes several excellent points as always. Semantically, I disagree with his bottom line. The bottom line is we should worry that both the Shia and the Sunni win.
With all that religious talk coming out of Saudi Arabia
What would they do without the oil?
There is 50% unemployment among the men and the women - well - do they have women - we cannot be sure!
The whole of that society is on a kind of dole - really – ah – that we're paying for.
We are paying for them to live like caterpillars that just munch on leaves all day long.
How else - by doing virtually nothing else - could they entertain so lavishly in their desert Kingdoms without the money we are paying them.
In addition to all that money – because the Arabs are treated like GODS in the Muslim world – many of those in the Islamic world – even those who are extremely poor send the Arabs even more money - for Mecca. [The place where the first ‘infidel’ lost his head. aaah!]
But there is a new mist blowing through the air in the Land of Arabia -
It seems that the trained Arab killers of the 'Al-Network' are determined to reopen a number of the CAMELS-R-US super stores that were once so popular in the region not long ago.
Will Saudi Arabia be injured by its own sword?
The only problem with risking life and limb to help – is that they have been trying to cut us with that same sword!
You can’t have it all Saudi Arabia!
The first post said may the deportations continue.
I just wish they would really get started.
What has this thread got to do with Christianity? Why do these threads "degenerate" into these discussions about my god being bigger than yours? The fight is for freedom, go right ahead and turn this honorable fight for freedom into a Christian Muslim war and see how far it gets you, at this rate blasphemy laws will be passed in to keep religious zealots from encouraging fruitless brawls.
The Gipper, may G-d bless his soul. He put our country first. Deeply religious, but not in your face with it. FDR. Lincoln.
The Gipper is more looked upon well now than when he was a leader. do you think when the 200 Marines were killed in Lebanon that it was wise not to wack those who did this, but to cut and run?
Texican -
You posted:
"Most religious people including Christians are tolerant of gays as long as gays do not try to foster their life style as acceptable for it isn’t an acceptable life style. If person wants to live this way it is their choice."
I ran this past the two gay guys who work for me. Their response was that yes, quite a few Christians are prepared to live in harmony with anybody including gay people but it has been their experience that the vast bulk are, and I use their words here, intolerant bigots who are just as bad as muslims in this respect.
They absolutely insisted that they didn't have a lifestyle they had a different, and perfectly natural, sexuality which, as far as they could determine, they had been born with. They also insisted that the way they lived (which, as far as I can see is no different from the way you or I live) is perfectly acceptable. Freedom, they stated, is indivisible. They will fight for ours but we have to fight for theirs.
They said they didn't have a choice about who they loved and said that nobody had the right to order them to remain celibate or invisible simply because they assumed they were superior. The consensus was that love is love and it is a good thing and that heterosexual love can, and usually does, provide children and that is a good thing, too, and that the natural state of things is that there should always be more hets than gays.
Incidentally, the brother of one of them and the parents of the other were here at the time and they all agreed with my employees. The brother was picking up his children who had been left in the charge of his gay brother and registered partner whilst he and his wife went up to town. Familly, as he said, is familly.
I must admit that I tend to concur with their views and disagree with yours. Still, the one thing they agreed with me on was that mohammedans are a huge threat to the free world. Both of them, together with the other three who were present this afternoon, were well aware of jihad and definitely anti-mohammedan.
Texican -
Really must proofread my postings. Try the correct spelling of family. Apologies.
Christians are prepared to live in harmony with anybody including gay people but it has been their experience that the vast bulk are, and I use their words here, intolerant bigots who are just as bad as Muslims in this respect.
Posted by: Certiorari
I have posed on one gay website and received from condemnation to support for the war against Islam. Go to:
http://gaypatriot.net/category/gay-america/
Look under "Aren't We Lucky." at the photograph showing two men being hung by Muslims.
The comment from your gay employees is consistent with comments from the Gay Community about Christians and other civilized people that do not agree with the gay life style and then comparing Christians with Muslims. This is like calling all gays child molesters because they are gay.
Modern day Christians do not behead or hang gays because they are gay like Muslims do. Undoubtedly there are always exceptions including gays that molest children and so called Christians that have murdered gays for being gay.
My Bible does not teach murdering gays but to be tolerant. Tolerance does not mean to accept the gay life style as being acceptable, but to have a live and let live attitude.
If the Gay Community in America and across the world does not wake up and realize that if Islam succeeds, all gays will be hunted down and murdered by Muslims because you are gay.
The Gay COmmunity should be marching in the streets in protest about the Koran and what it preaches about murdering gays for the Islam is more threat to the Gay Community than all of the other religions combined.
Gay Community the choice is yours, you can join with Christians, the peaceful religions of the world and the civilized nations of the world to defeat Islam or be executed when Islam conquers the world.
The petty differences between Christians and Gays have to be put to the side if we are to win the War with Islam.
Join us.
The war with Islam is inevitable.
Prepare be armed be ready.
The Texican.
Freedom. The only choice at any cost.
Stranger, your comments are valid. I know that I simply responded to what was posted by someone else that I agreed with. Than I am called out into the religious debate. I appreciate debate so that doesn't bother me too much. However, I disagree with you that religion should be left out of this conflict. The terrorists are certainly calling this a "holy war" and labeling us (U.S.A.) the "great satan" so I think that all methods of defeating them are valid from bombs to evangelism. If one Muslim reads something on hear that makes him think about leaving Islam for Christianity than that is a win.
Let's roll.
Texican -
I have run your point of view past a number of gay people in the last few hours courtesy of my two employees' address books.
Most UK gay people, it seems, agree with you that the mohammedans pose a far more immediate and real threat to freedom, including their freedoms (which gay people in the USA don't have), than do modern Christians such as you.
Mostly, however, they asked me to remind you that historically the enemy for them has been mohammedanism AND Christianity (fundamentalists and Roman Catholics being the worst offenders against gays) and, indeed, the organised branches of most religions. They simply refuse to believe that the leopard has changed his spots. Many, it seems, are afraid of being seen to be OPENLY with Christians on the issue of fighting against the jihad because of what some Christians may do to them and, indeed, have done to them in the past year in the UK, whilst acknowledging that mohammedans can be equally vicious.
However, I will say again that most of the gay people I have spoken to this afternoon do appreciate the dangers that the mohammedans in our society pose - it's just that they don't, or can't, trust the Christians either. I can't blame them for that when I see the attitude of Many Christians, including, I'm sorry to say, your own patronising attitude, towards them. I was like you just a short time ago but I have had the experience of being able to talk to real, live, gay people and get their take on things. I no longer have to rely on people like the old man of Rome to tell me what to think. If Christianity teaches you to patronise and look down on gay people as second class and to ask them to behave as your dhimmis, for that is what you are doing, then Christianity is just plain wrong (or perhaps your interpretation of Christ's message is wrong).
Things, of course, are very different in the USA where gay people, I am given to understand, can't even register their partnerships and in many senses don't enjoy the same equal treatment under the law as they do here in the UK. Maybe your cowed and subservient dhimmi gay people find it even more difficult to see what you are driving at when you talk about the mohammedan threat and maybe that's why they find it difficult to support us.
I think we should draw this to a close and just agree to disagree on this point, don't you.
In several threads here I have seen the sentiment that things will change once we get free of oil.
Bush claims we are on the verge of a breakthrough that will astonish most Americans.
Well, I certainly hope is talking about this:
http://www.discover.com/issues/jul-04/features/anything-into-oil/
http://www.discover.com/issues/may-03/features/featoil/
I read the original article in May of 2003 and have ben WONDERING why I don't hear more about it. Basically, for those of you not prone to link clicking -- A U.S. company, with the U.S. government as a partial partner, has learned how to create light texas crude out of agriculutral waste and pretty much any other kind of garbage.
They have done it.
They are working up to doing it larger scale.
It is 85% energy efficient in the conversiona and considering that the input materials are trash headed for a landfill, 20% would still be a great conversion rate -- but they have 85%!
THIS is where our American Tax dollars should be going. THIS will revolutionize how we are or are not forced to deal with backwards regimes that have us handicapped by their control of oil.
Pass it around. Share the information. This technology should be pushed hard.
It's an economic and national security breakthrough that isn't getting the kind of attention it deserves.
Disciple,
I'm glad my post was helpful. I always read yours with great interest, too.
As far as Stranger goes, he is obviously bitter and resentful when it comes to religion. Why should he care if you and other posters here and I have a discussion about what we think will help solve this Islamic problem from a spiritual point of view? There is endless advise offered by those here who porudly label themselves atheists and agnostics. Since Islam deals with negative spirituality then that part of it will have to be dealt with on a spiritual plane. If Stranger doesn't want to acknowledge this that is his choice. But his never ending whining about the discussion of religion and his tantrums for us to stop talking about it are parallel with the reasons we are sick of Islam. If we are Christians we will talk about Christianity as a solution to our very real Islamic problem. We will not except dhimmitude from Islam and we will certainly not accept it from someone who has a chip on his shoulder from any real or imagined offenses that he believes come from Christianity.
His comments regarding religion are not valid and no explanation or apology is necessary. He's entitled to his opinion as are you and I.
I think we should draw this to a close and just agree to disagree on this point, don't you.
Posted by: Certiorari
Agree.
You might find interesting that I to have been friends with gays through the years.
Pretty astounding, uh.
The Texican. Just to the right of Atilla.
Freedom. The only choice at any cost.
Certiorari,
Back up a second because I don't think you are looking at the whole picture.
1. I am not in the UK so I can't really speak to the attitude of UK Christians or UK Gays, or Gay Christians in the UK.
2. I am a part of the western world, so I feel okay speaking the general concept of Christianity versus Islam regarding Gays.
Yo, Western Christians, you've come a long way baby! Yes, there is still fundamentalist resisitance -- but, there is also western science which increasingly tells us gay is not a choice. Gay people are born that way. Which, if you are a person of religion means that is how GOD made them. It's still an uncomfortable area to be sure. And yes, the old testament is still full of anti-gay slogans.
But, "We're here, We're Queer, Get used to it"
That's Freedom of Speech.
And, it worked, and mindsets in America about homosexuality have changed dramatically in the last few decades. Under an Islamic regime there is no hope of moving forward.
And, since you can say that based on the addresses of two gay people in your address UK Christians are Homophobic -- then let me tell you -- based on the intense interactions with gay family members, gay friends, and gay co-workers spanning my entire life -- most American Christians are far more accepting than what you have outlined as the experiences of the the UK homosexuals you know.
Is there still room for progress?
Yes.
Has the progress been by leaps and bounds in the past twenty years? YES!
For any gay person to say that they are nervous of joining with Christianty to fight off Islam because the two are two much the same -- well these are either people who stand in a minority of people who have suffered truly traumatic experiences at the hands of extremists (and yes, that does happen, I admit it), or they are the overly in your face challenge your right to live a christian life antagonizing type (and they exist too), or they are simply very poorly informed.
There's not a homosexual I know who wouldn't pick Christianity over Islam any day of the week. The biggest problem most of the gays I know have with Christianity is that those who want to take an active part in the faith have trouble finding a church that will be truly inclusive if the congregations knows that they are actively living a homosexual lifestyle.
Islam wants them dead.
BIG difference.
Please excuse typos in prior post.
I got riled and typed too fast!
Ahem.. strange that all of the bright intellectual conservative lights didn't catch this turn of phrase, but it betrays the poster.. who obviously is not a "left liberal" but a Muslim posing as "liberal".
What does a non muslim, much less a liberal, know of the "intricacies" of the Islamic faith?
Nothing, there are no intricacies in the faith, it is the most concrete, absolutist and simplicistic of all "faiths" ...with apologies to faith, for Islam is not a "faith" unless by faith one includes all supremacist absolutist ideologies.
Note to the religiously afflicted, there are no winners in the battle for god, and turning defense against Jihad into a religious war is a non starter, as well as a losing proposition, for the simple reason that Islam has our money, most of the oil, and a higher rate of fecundity, they are outbreeding us, and all of your pious exhortations and rationalizations aren't going to put a dent in those horrendous facts.
Da'wa of Islam v Christian proslytization is also a non starter. Compare the Islamic converts to Christianity v the reverse and figure your chances.
Islam, one ups the Christians, it recognizes Mary and Jesus, Christianity doesn't recognize Muhammad, it actually two ups Christianity..leaving Islam is almost impossible for a Muslim (as our pseudonymous former Muslim and no atheistic friends will testify), but leaving Christianity is all too easy.. and I don't think that the west is ready to revert to heretic burnings and inquisitions.
Conclusion: The war can only be fought with appeals to reason and logic (not circular reasoning), not with replacement religions, for if religions are replaced then again Christianity will come out the loser..revisit the former Byztantine and Roman Empires that stretched from the Atlantic to Iraq..where are they now?
Circular reasoning: Ex: The scriptures are the word of god because they say so in the scriptures are the word of god because they say so in the scriptures.. (Substitute name of choice for scriptures and god in the above).
Nariz-
Don't forget the "God" inspired your entire argument against "God" argument, either.
Mobius torus reasoning, courtesy of M.C. Escher.
Down the rabbit hole's wormhole, over and out!
toleranceorappeasement? -
I think that the few gay people whom I spoke to were well aware of the dangers that the mohammedans pose. In fact, several were at pains to point out to me much that I already knew courtesy of this site and others.
What they were actually saying, I think, about Christianity is that the teachings on the issue of homosexuality that they were hearing from Christians and mohammedans in the popular press and on TV and radio in the UK were remarkably similar. This then seemed to me to put them off joining in the fight with the Christians against the global jihad. So, the tiny minority of loud-mouths in Christianity are effectively, in the UK, detering gay people from joining us.
Instead, they are seeing Christians as the enemy as well as mohammedans but only, it seems, when it comes to their sexuality; in other political and freedom matters they are well aware of the distinctions between people such as you and me and the mohamedans. I have just been shown a copy of what I am told is the foremost gay publication in the UK - called Gay Times, apparently available online also - and there is an article in it by a Terry Sanderson that is pretty scathing about Christian attitudes in the UK and it seems that he believes his attitude is shared by his readers. An extremely high level of distaste was evinced in this article towards Roman Catholics and fundamentalist Christians in particular with special reference to something called the Christian Institute. (I haven't googled that so I don't know what it might be, yet.)
It could be that the more rational of Christians such as you have a lot more convincing to do especially in the UK. Guaranteeing the freedoms of gay people by law as we have done in the UK has obviously not been enough to give gay people the confidence to stand against the real enemy of their freedoms - namely mohammedanism.
Thank you disciple but, just because these jihadis call it a "holy war" does'nt mean we should stoop to their level as isabella"thecrusader" does...Bitter and resentful indeed. For a muslim to leave his/her religion would require a detox program to purge the hate from them before they could find "their" true god again. Some Christians resemble Muslims with their know it all attitude. l have one question: What would Jesus (the lamb) do in these times?
Stranger, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you are not a person that believes in God or follows any particular faith?
As far as a detox program is concerned I have been detoxed practically overnight from the ills that beset me simply by starting to beleive in Jesus.I personally know people with first hand accounts of Muslims converting simply by one conversation with a Christian.
As far as what Jesus would do, it is easy to see when you read the New Testament that Jesus would call these people on their bad theology and bluntly tell them they are not only going to hell themselves but that they are leading many others down the same path. He said these things to the Jewish leaders in Judea.
Matthew 23:15 (NIV)
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."
That is just one of many verses like it. If I may suggest a reading try Matthew Chapter 23.
He MAY also use words like these about Mohammed or others.
Matthew 24:11 (NIV)
and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Matthew 24:24 (NIV)
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.
I hope that may help clarify why I say what I say. My zeal for my faith is revealed here by my words not by anything violent.
Peace
Salam Alikum