Refreshing anti-dhimmitude. Or at least a first step. From Reuters, with thanks to all who sent this in:
PARIS (Reuters) - After backing calls by Muslims for respect for their religion in the Mohammad cartoons row, the Vatican is now urging Islamic countries to reciprocate by showing more tolerance toward their Christian minorities.Roman Catholic leaders at first said Muslims were right to be outraged when Western newspapers reprinted Danish caricatures of the Prophet, including one with a bomb in his turban. Most Muslims consider any images of Mohammad to be blasphemous.
After criticizing both the cartoons and the violent protests in Muslim countries that followed, the Vatican this week linked the issue to its long-standing concern that the rights of other faiths are limited, sometimes severely, in Muslim countries.
Vatican prelates have been concerned by recent killings of two Catholic priests in Turkey and Nigeria. Turkish media linked the death there to the cartoons row. At least 146 Christians and Muslims have died in five days of religious riots in Nigeria.
"If we tell our people they have no right to offend, we have to tell the others they have no right to destroy us," Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican's Secretary of State (prime minister), told journalists in Rome.
"We must always stress our demand for reciprocity in political contacts with authorities in Islamic countries and, even more, in cultural contacts," Foreign Minister Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo told the daily Corriere della Sera.
OT, two great articles by Dr. Sookhdeo:
http://www.barnabasfund.org/archivenews/article.php?ID_news_items=131
NIGERIA
23 February 2006
HARD-PRESSED NIGERIAN CHRISTIANS FINALLY RETALIATE AFTER
INTERNATIONAL ANTI-CHRISTIAN VIOLENCE AGAINST CARTOONS
Christians in Nigeria have reached breaking-point and retaliated
against
Muslims. The reprisals follow an incident on Saturday 18th February
when
50 Christians were killed and 30 churches burned down by Muslim rioters
in
the northern city of Maiduguri, Borno state. The Muslim violence was
part
of a worldwide _expression of outrage over cartoons of Muhammad, first
published in Denmark last September. Since 29th January similar
attacks
have been made on Christian minorities in a wide range of Muslim
contexts.
In a phonecall to Barnabas Fund on 7th February the Bishop of Peshawar,
Pakistan reported that two church-run schools at Mardan and at Bannu
had
been attacked the day before by Muslims protesting about the Danish
cartoons, which were republished this year in various other European
countries and Jordan. Bishop Mano Rumalshah was thankful that police
intervened promptly and helped to evacuate the frightened children, and
that no one was seriously injured. But he commented, “We [Pakistani
Christians] have not done anything, the cartoons are nothing to do with
us.
They [the rioting Muslims] do not comprehend or understand that
Pakistani
Christians are not Westerners.” In the following week, Muslims also
attacked three more Christian schools in Peshawar and one in Kasur,
near
Lahore, as well as a Christian hospital in Peshawar.
The catalogue of cartoon-related anti-Christian violence includes the
following:
• Iraq: at least 4 churches bombed, Christian university students
beaten up
• Lebanon: at least 1 church attacked
• Libya: 1 church attacked
• Nigeria: approximately 50 Christians killed, 30 churches burnt down
• Pakistan: 6 Christian schools, 1 Christian hospital attacked
• Syria: 3 churches attacked
• Turkey: church leader shot dead
The cartoons are also thought to be a contributory factor in several
other
recent incidents of anti-Christian violence in Northern Nigeria in
which a
further two churches were attacked and at least 26 people were killed.
Nigeria has a Muslim majority in the North and a Christian majority in
the
South; there is a history of inter-religious riots, most often started
by
Muslims.
There is plenty of evidence to show that many of the anti-cartoon
protests
have not been spontaneous, but have been deliberately orchestrated.
Just hours after warnings from Archbishop Peter Akinola, president of
the
Christian Association of Nigeria, that his organisation might not be
able
to restrain “restive” Christian youths much longer, Christians in two
southern cities rioted on Tuesday and Wednesday (21st-22nd February).
The
rioters in Onitsha, Anambra state, and Enugu, in neighbouring Enugu
state,
attacked Muslims, Muslim-owned shops and two mosques. An estimated 85
people were killed, mainly Muslims.
In Archbishop Akinola’s statement, issued on 21st February, he also
said,
“It is very clear now that the sacrifices of the Christians in this
country
for peaceful co-existence with people of other faiths has been sadly
misunderstood to be weakness. We have for a long time now watched
helplessly the killing, maiming and destruction of Christians and their
property by Muslim fanatics and fundamentalists at the slightest or no
provocation at all…. That an incident in far away Denmark which does
not
claim to be representing Christianity could elicit such an unfortunate
reaction here in Nigeria, leading to the destruction of Christian
Churches,
is not only embarrassing but also disturbing and unfortunate.” For full
statement please see link [1].
Dr Patrick Sookhdeo, International Director of Barnabas Fund,
commented:
“It is interesting that when Muslims attack Western embassies it is
news,
and when Christians retaliate against Muslim violence it is news. But
when
Muslims attack vulnerable Christian minorities to take revenge for
publishing cartoons that are nothing to do with the Christian victims,
it
is barely mentioned in the media. When Christian organisations joined
with
Muslim organisations in the UK on 18th February to protest in London
against the cartoons, did they have any concern for what Muslims are
doing
to Christian minorities who have absolutely no connection with the
cartoons?
“While I utterly deplore the Christian counter-attacks in Nigeria - for
Christians should always be people of peace not violence - Archbishop
Akinola has rightly pointed out that peaceful conduct is all too often
seen
as weakness by Muslims. This perceived weakness makes Christians all
the
more likely to be targeted. Western Christian leaders and Western
governments, who are eager to prevent Muslim feelings from being hurt,
do
not seem to have the courage to speak out about what is happening to
innocent Christian minorities in the Muslim world. If they will not
condemn the anti-Christian violence or even publicise it, can they be
so
surprised when non-Western Christians – goaded beyond endurance –
finally
fight back?”
http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/internet/02/23/name.blocked.ap/
Yahoo takes the 'Allah' out of Callahan
Thursday, February 23, 2006; Posted: 8:32 a.m. EST (13:32 GMT)
FOUNTAIN CITY, Wisconsin (AP) -- A man from Wisconsin says his attempts to sign up for an e-mail account with Yahoo failed when he used his name, which includes the letters a-l-l-a-h -- as in Allah, the Arabic word for God.
Ed Callahan said he started trying to establish the e-mail account after his mother, with the same last name, could not get one.
As he tried using various words, he determined that e-mail addresses with other religious words seemed OK, but not if they included the spelling of Allah.
"The war on terror is becoming a war on Muslims," Callahan said.
Yahoo Inc. said Wednesday it has changed policy to allow usage of the word. In a written statement, the company defended the previous policy as an attempt to protect users from hateful speech.
"A small number of people registered for IDs using specific terms with the sole purpose of promoting hate and then used those IDs to post content that was harmful or threatening to others, thus violating Yahoo's terms of service," the statement said.
After the policy change, Callahan said he promptly registered a new e-mail account, which includes his last name.
"...Practice what you preach...?"
Oh NO: Obviously the Church doesn't know what Islam preaches...?
Watch them when they come charging out of the mosques after the Friday kutbah, all fired up and ready to chop some heads!
Strange way of asking. Do you really want more Jihad?
"Not Violence"
I believe most Muslims don't perceive the killing of non-Muslims or the destruction of their property a form of violence. Most consider it a form of defense. Muslims, even in heavily Muslim-dominated lands, consider themselves victims. Victims of Jews, Christians, Hindus, Americans, etc.. Some Muslims also consider it their obligation to purify the world of non-Muslims. It seems Muslims will always come up with a bogey enemy to confront. Its better than confronting their own failures.
Check out Dave's site:
http://victimsofallah.blogspot.com/
A limited response, oh, about 1,390 years belated. Anything from the papacy on the express goal of world subjugation? No, silence is golden, and so are Jizya-paying Dhimmis.
From the article: '"If we tell our people they have no right to offend, we have to tell the others they have no right to destroy us," Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican's Secretary of State (prime minister), told journalists in Rome.'
The Koran gives Muslims every right to destroy us. How can that point be missed, or misinterpreted, or ignored?
Alarmed Pig Farmer:
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that the Pope should be calling for aggressive action against Moslems? Would non-Catholics be comfortable with that, or even Catholics for that matter? I think we want to go slow on that. There are some other steps to take first.
It is necessary to first clearly and loudly define our expectations first from the Ummah and even this much has not yet been done. The Vatican is now engaged in the process of defining the Church's expectations and Western governments must also become so engaged in defining the expectations of secular governments. Tolerance must be reciprocal. There is no alternative.
Non-Moslems will leave it to the Moslems as to how they square the notion of reciprocal tolerance with the blatant triumphalism written in the Qur'an. But the line must now be drawn in the sand, as it was during the Crusades.
Wars and rumors of war are multiplying. War is mass psychosis, as is the greater practice of Islam, with its unfettered faith and lack of balanced reason. I guess I am still hopeful that if the West remains true to the best of its own traditions, there may still be a chance to avoid the worst of coming violence as during the Cold War.
Moses commandment:
Thou shall not kill
Mohammed commandment:
Thou shall kill
Moses commandment:
Thou shall worship no other God
Mohammed commandment:
Thou shall worship no other God or I will bust a cap in your ass.
Note to Vatican:
Read the Goddamned Koran, kohlkopf!
They are practicing what they preach.
Global theocratic imperium.
Subjugate the People of the Book.
Kill the rest.
War is deceit.
I guess too much altar wine is affecting the Catholic heirarchy's ability to open a Qu'ran and read it.
It's shorter than the New Testament.
And much less metaphorical.
Sura 9:29-30 for starters.
On Feb.16th in Denver, Sandro Magister spoke in a lecture series in exploring Christian-Muslim relations. His lecture was tiitled "Christians,Muslims and the future of Europe. Sandro Magister writes for Rome's L'Espresso newspaper, specializing in Vatican affairs. He has been reporting for over 30 years and has close contact with the Pope(s) during that time.
Here is a link to the speech he gave Feb. 16:
http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=46115&eng=y
And here is an exerpt from a great analysis:
Of course, Islam is also that which subjugated and extinguished the blossoming Churches of the Christian East and of northern Africa.
It is that which extended its domain beyond Spain, even coming to the point of assaulting and sacking the Rome of the popes, in 847.
It is that which destroyed the holy places of Jerusalem and reconquered the land of Jesus which had been temporarily lost with the Crusades.
It is that which brought Constantinople to its knees in 1453, and more than a century later was defeated and beaten back at Lepanto, and yet did not retreat, but instead, another century later, put Vienna to the siege.
But in the meantime, Europe was ravaged by bloody wars among its own Christian members with Islam as the ally of first one and then another kingdom. For many centuries, Islam was treated as a legitimate power within the concert of nations and European public law.
It was only much later, in the nineteenth century, when the Ottoman Empire was in full decline, that the European culture of Enlightenment origin drew a boundary between a civilized Europe and a despotic, backward Europe, including within this “inferior” Europe, together with Islam, the Roman Catholic Church as well.
The same period, from the nineteenth century forward, saw also the birth of the myth of a bygone golden age, an age of peaceful multicultural dialogue between Islam and the Judaeo-Christian world, an age said to have taken place now in Sicily, now in Spain, now in Baghdad.
In reality, much of this is legend. Even in Andalusia when it was ruled by the Almoads, which is so frequently remembered and praised, Jews and Christians were second-class citizens and were systematically harassed, and the two great exponents of that so-called golden age – the Jew Maimonides and the Muslim Averroes, the great translator and interpreter of Aristotle – both ended their lives in exile.
EUROPEAN ISLAM
Therefore, the current temptation to exclude Turkey from Europe has understandable reasons behind it, which Joseph Ratzinger brought to light before he was elected pope.
But this push to exclude the idea that Christianity and Islam can interact on positive terms is the perverse effect of very recent developments.
It’s been just a few decades, not centuries, since the Armenians in Turkey were exterminated, and the Greek Orthodox expelled.
It’s been just a few decades since the Jews disappeared from the Arab countries and the Maghreb.
It’s been just a few decades since the numerous Spaniards, Italians, and Frenchmen – both Jewish and Christian – disappeared from Algeria.
It’s been just a few decades that Alexandria in Egypt has been inhabited solely by Arab Muslims, and is no longer the cosmopolitan city that it had always been before, where Greeks and Italians mingled with the Egyptians.
It’s been just a few decades that the Christian minorities in the Arab countries of the Middle East have been reduced even further in number, depopulated by an exodus to the West. Not to mention what happened at the end of the twentieth century in the former Yugoslavia, where the clash of civilizations theorized by Samuel Huntington was made tangible in conflicts between Catholics, Orthodox, and Muslims, with the massacre and expulsion of peoples guilty of having trespassed upon centuries-old political and religious boundaries.
Of course, there is no comfort in the fact that a radical Islamist party like Hamas won the elections last January 25 in Palestine.
But if one looks at these events in the perspective of centuries – and if one looks at the recent outbreak of religion into the public square – the alternative to Islamist radicalism cannot be the “secular” Islam dreamt of by many in the West, both intellectuals and governors.
This “secular” Islam is the pet project of authoritarian regimes with no future, like that of Syria, or of rare secularized authors and businessmen, almost all of whom have left their countries of origin and have practically no following in the Muslim world.
Historically, a “secular” Islam of great power and breadth, which also gave rise to a stable modern state, is that of the Turkey of Kemal Ataturk. But even within Turkey this “secular” form of Islam has been noticeably on the decline for a while, and the government is now held by a party that is conservative, democratic in some partial features, and openly religious.
Also in Palestine, the defeat of Fatah – the party of the late Yasser Arafat – in the recent elections marked the end of a superimposed “secular” system of power, inspired by old socialist and nationalist European models. The victory of Hamas is the affirmation of a party that has understood how to re-Islamicize society. And this affirmation was obtained through democratic procedures, by a vote.
But democracy is not merely a procedure; it is a culture, a culture made of individual liberty and of free interaction between politics and religion. And it is here that Hamas and the other neofundamentalist parties now on the rise – most of them connected to the Muslim Brotherhood, which has a great deal of influence over Islamic immigrants in Europe – find themselves in check.
They have no responses to the problem of governing diverse groups. And this is precisely what made Europe into a civilization at once united and varied, on its Greco-Roman-Christian foundation, not excluding but rather including Islam.
* * *
For this reason, there are two obligatory steps along the way to integrating the Muslims within the Europe of today and tomorrow.
These are the self-reform of Islam, and the education of minds.
The first step is very difficult, but possible. It is difficult because the Koran is not the equivalent of what the Sacred Scriptures are for Christians, but rather the equivalent of Christ, the Eternal Word of God come down to earth. And thus the Muslim does not see the Koran as open to interpretation and adaptation, as the Sacred Scriptures are, which are “divinely inspired” but still written by men.
But it is possible because in the Muslim world – above all among the Shiites, but also among the Sunnis, from Morocco to Turkey to Indonesia – there are nevertheless currents that acknowledge and practice various interpretations of the Koran, and some of these are capable of incorporating its principles with modern democracy. Together with his former theology students, Benedict XVI dedicated a meeting of study last September at Castelgandolfo to precisely this varied approach to divine revelation on the part of Muslims.
As for the second step toward the integration of Muslims into Europe, the education of minds, last August 20 Benedict XVI insisted upon this in his meeting in Cologne with some of the exponents of the Muslim community in Germany.
After condemning in biting words the acts of terrorism carried out “as if this could be something pleasing to God,” the pope addressed the Muslims present there as follows:
“You guide Muslim believers and train them in the Islamic faith. Teaching is the vehicle through which ideas and convictions are transmitted. Words are highly influential in the education of the mind. You, therefore, have a great responsibility for the formation of the younger generation. As Christians and Muslims, we must face together the many challenges of our time.”
This is the interreligious and intercultural dialogue between Christians and Muslims that Benedict XVI wants.
He has asked his “dear Muslim friends” for unity of action “in the service of fundamental moral values conveyed to us unmistakably by the quiet but clear voice of conscience.”
This is a voice that speaks to all, and which the pope trusts will be listened to and acted upon by all. It is a voice that commands Europe to believe in its own Christian identity: the generator of a great civilization of which the Muslims are a part.
__________
And in case our Muslim readers missed it, here is the quote we all need to take to heart:
The Pope addressed muslims after condemning in biting words the acts of terrorism carried out “as if this could be something pleasing to God,”
Sorry about the long cut and paste. There was just so many phenominal points in here!
Most Muslims consider any images of Mohammad to be blasphemous.
This from Jpost seems to show something more cultural than religious:
"Analysis: Did Naveh cross the Jordanian 'red line'?"
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395476600&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
... to even hint that the Hashemite King Abdullah II will be removed forcibly from his seat is to question the king himself. And to question the king is beyond unacceptable. It borders on profanity.
All the general did was say that Jordanians of Palestinian descent will want to overthrow their monarchy and that there are enough of them to do it.
The Barnabas Fund have launched a campaign, Right to Justice, on behalf of Christian Minorities. From their email to me:
On a different note, have some of the comments disappeared or is it just my PC? On some threads, comments seem to end mid-sentence or even mid-word. Perhaps the posters were abducted by aliens of a Muslim persuasion at a crucial moment.
prophitsbeard:
I think the Vatican was referring to what the imams preach to non-Muslims, not what the imams preach to their adherents.
I was just thinking of posting the text of that BF e-mail when I found you were ahead of me.
I had the same problem this morning; I'm glad it was not just me. All the links at the side had been abducted into the dungeon dimensions as well.
Interested, it's not your PC, I noticed it last night. Pages would suddenly end and I was unable to scroll beyond a certain point. I couldn't get down to the sign-in section to post comments. I thought my computer or software was screwed up too but apparently not. I couldn't get to the bottom of any threads this morning either but now it seems to be working ok.
I wondered if it was a subtle hint for me to keep my mouth shut.
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that the Pope should be calling for aggressive action against Moslems? Would non-Catholics be comfortable with that, or even Catholics for that matter? I think we want to go slow on that. There are some other steps to take first.
Of course you are absolutely right in this observation. But, trouble is, everybody in the Infidel world is waiting for somebody else to take the first step.
What higher executive position is there on earth but the Papacy? As we've learned over the past 4 1/2 years, it sure ain't the Oval Office.
Granny, SusanP,
I had the same problem. At least some of those previous threads are still cut off.
I think that you don´t understand the church´s point, and that is, we are listening that "islam is peace" and there isn´t compulsion in religion, well, the church, says, make it what you preach, I think that it´s very interesting.
Benedict XVI don´t have to rule a crusade, we live in other times, with other answers, and the main question, is that until West come back to the christianism, and destroy all the socialism, multiculturalism and PC´s dogmas, the solution would be impossible.
Islam hasn´t changed nor won´t change, The West have to change, we need more Tancredos and Rasmussen and less Bush and Chiracs.
Greetings
In addition to being unstable, TypeKey offers the additional feature of having the absolutely worst text editor in the history of the computer industry.
I feel for the Webmaster for this site. Must be a struggle. Replace TypeKey and fix this mess.
This is it from the Church of John Sobieski and Don Juan of Austria?
A postive development considering previous statements I suppose, but don't look for too much more from the Vatican on this subject. It doesn't square with their post-Vatican II notion of ecumenism. As I write, hundreds of parish praryer groups are thinking of ways to "reach out" to their Muslim brethrens in a show of sympathy for the cartoons. Don't forget, JP II wrote that "together with Muslims, we worship the same merciful God." That sort of rot permeates the Church today. They are not going to chuck their 40 year experiment because of a few church burnings. It will take much more than that.
"abducted into the dungeon dimensions"
That proves it. First the posting name, now this. You're really Terry Pratchett.
It looks like the Nigerians at least have run out of patience and cheeks to turn. Tired of being Islam's whipping boy, they are rioting against Islam, burning Muslim homes and killing Muslims.
"... a 34-year-old Christian stood amid the concrete rubble of a mosque. "We don't want these mosques here anymore. These people are causing all the problems all over the world because they don't fear God," he said."
http://www.leadingthecharge.com/stories/news-00148893.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/23/AR2006022300406.html
God forgive them.
I'm not kidding:
Sudan man forced to marry goat
Could be worse. For example, if, when asked, "What are you doing there?" the miscreant had replied, "Mmmmfllfffff".
And we complain here in Britain about the nanny state.
Interested, that's baaaad.
I'm liking what I'm hearing from the Vatican these days. This sort of talk is a radical departure from what we heard under JPII (God rest his soul). I think it's just grand and I welcome it. Go get 'em, Benedict! If only our local priests would utter such truths.
High in the hills lives a lonely goatherd, yodel, yodel, yodel, odel, oh ai ai.
And I do declare, you, Yojimbo, must be Archchancellor Ridcully.
Interested:
Who gave the bride away?
Did she eat the bouquet?
I'm the last person to milk this story. It is from the BBC, who are known for their ability to swallow a camel but strain at a gnat. A useful skill for a Sudanese newlywed, perhaps.
Please view this video (total length 30 seconds) from todays Free Speech rally at the Danish embassy in Washingotn, D.C. Such an articulate young man, so representative of humanity, so diametrically opposed to the rabid dogs of Islam. In one measely half minute (equal to one New York minute), this gentleman summarized perfectly why free speech is our inalienable right.
OOOPS
Video Link here
I must now change into my sackcloth and ashes.
Benedict was John Pauls "Rottweiller" you know.
I'm getting the feeling more and more that it was JP 2 who was holding Ratzinger back - rather like the way you hold back a rather massive rottweiller on a leash.
Remembers folks that it was Ratzinger who went after the Marxist liberation theology in Central America - lots of Jesuits were excommunicated.
He is one serious hardcore Catholic.
He was asked , pre-Pope days, on British television if he was worried about falling church attendance and numbers - he dismissed it by saying basically, that the people who still stay true to the faith will be the hardcore of christianity. and thus more religious and passionate about their faith - this emerging core of "true believers" will revitalise Christianity according to Ratzinger. The logic stands up to reason i suppose. And has shades of Sayeed Qutb, in my view.
these recent utterances, mentioned in this dhimmiwatch post, are entirely in character with Ratzingers philosophy.
hint: its not John Paul "softly softly".
lisa -> cheers thanks for the link!
thats the rally that christopher hitchens was promoting this week. much obliged!
As Cardinal in 1997, Ratzinger wrote this (scroll to third artilce in series) about Islam:
Shari’a shapes society from beginning to end..
Lui capisce veramente; Er versteht wahrheitsgemäß.
>> Vatican to Muslims: practice what you preach
Hammer_Time posted: That's the problem; They ARE practicing what they preach!
Indeed they are i.e., when they are not pracising Taqqiya.
It is all well and good for the Vatican and maybe other Christian leaders spreaking out now. But I'm afraid it is all a little too little and too late. Most of the Christians in Arab/muslim countries are packing their bags. In Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, "Palestine" - the historic centre of Christianity, they are almost all gone. The rest are just waiting for a visa.
So what in effect will happen is that muslim countries will agree to protect non-existent Christians in their countries (the task of virtually eliminating Christianity having been completed), while requiring us to abide by that agreement for tens of millions of muslims in the West.
NO. I'm afraid all this is too late, and in effect only helps the muslim cause.
"And has shades of Sayeed Qutb, in my view."
Remember that Qutb was a pretty odd character. Attending college in the US in the 50s, he encountered Americans dancing cheek to cheek and imagined he was in the presence of vice. Now I have no time for psychobabble, but if ever there were strange <quote> psychosexual <\quote> phenomena around, then Radical Islam is plugged directly into them.
You could plausibly argue that current (21st century not 50s) Western culture has lost its sense of shame ... but dancing? Besides, we laugh instead of becoming furious. These guys have serious problems with all this. As Tom Barnett says, muck around with these young men's concepts of sex, marriage, and the role of women, and you'll really annoy them:
Barnett speaks at Sandia labs
Islamic apologists talk of jihad as being inner struggle. But, as Theodore Dalrymple has pointed out, who's to separate the inner struggle from the outer one here? The recourse to the most extreme affirmation of loyalty to the faith "outwardly" solves the "inner" turmoil in a world of temptation.
Frankly, I think all inner/outer distinctions rather smack of Cartesianism, and should, nowadays, be treated with scepticism.
I digress ... I dont imagine the pope struggles with such an odd view of sexual life.
I hope he has a limited interest in existentialism and revolutionary politics,too.
Islamic people don't want to compromise - they think that it is their God given right to spread their Goat F**king religion all over the world.
To be asked to marry a goat - is also within the grounds of Islamic law; as the woman is seen as a farm animal under Islamic law - which a man has permission to sleep with. It is a bizarre, bizarre religion.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4748292.stm
It is very important for the Vatican to speak out against the ill treatment of Christians who live in the Muslim world.
Even if you are not Catholic you have to get behind the Vatican in this respect.
Re the post by Interested.
I may be wrong, but I believe there is an old arab saying that goes something like this:
A woman for sons, a goat for relief, and a boy for pleasure.
The version I heard was:
A woman for sons, a boy for pleasure and a camel for ecstasy.
Didn't some chap in Texas marry a horse? He's dead, of course.
You may be as well hung for a sheep as for a lamb. Ask any Welshman.
SusanP noticed yesterday that the threads here at JW/DW stopped short. I noticed that too. Today, I thought it had been fixed, but the Hitchens thread is still doing that: I can't post there.
Christians and other minorities are treated worse than animals in Muslim majority countries. Its the fault of the Western countries that we allow these savages into our lands and treat them like humans and then they want to take over. Its time we treated Muslims the same way they treat their minorities.
Do not support any Muslim businesses or enterprises, or do not buy anything made in an Muslim country. Just the other day I had bought some dish cloths at the local super market and noticed that they were made in Bangladesh. I put them away and the Cashier asked me why, I told her I don't want to support any Muslim country by buying their products, after they called for a boycott of Danish products. Every one behind me in line looked into their baskets,one took out a pack of 6 glasses make in Turkey, another took out some flatware made in Pakistan, another a pair of trainers made in Indonesia, I was elated, we too can boycott their products.
NOTE TO PROFITSBEARD:
Do you eat with that mouth?
If you had any sense at all, you would have some sort of understanding of Catholic Church History because if anyone knows Mohammedans, including their teachings and their history, it is The Catholic Church, but obviously you have more time on your hands to learn profanity than you do about the one institution which fought against these people for much longer than you would know.
You're not so smart because what Cardinal Angelo Sodano said was: "If we tell our people they have no right to offend, we have to tell the others they have no right to destroy us."
If you can read French, Spanish, Italian or German, then you can read the whole transcript of the speech which may be found on The Vatican's website.
What you should have noticed and it's a shame that this has to be pointed out to you was that it was Robert himself who placed the heading which read:
"Vatican to Muslims: practice what you preach"
Must be an eye sight problem. Glasses would be good?
What your problem is, is that you are not only anti-Catholic, but you have no respect for The Catholic Church, which means you must have no respect for Robert either as I can tell by your comment where you said: "I guess too much altar wine is affecting the Catholic heirarchy's ability to open a Qu'ran and read it."
Again, hundreds of years before you were to make your mentally idle comments, The Catholic Church was engaged with fighting Islam, in fact, the Crusaders had to read the Qu'ran from cover to cover so that they would know the kind of enemy they were up against, but then again, I don't want to confuse you with the facts as you've probably already made up your own mind.
PJ
"If we tell our people they have no right to offend, we have to tell the others they have no right to destroy us."
Actually, the whole point is that even if you tell your people that it's OK to offend, the "others" will still have no right to destroy you.
"Again, hundreds of years before you were to make your mentally idle comments, The Catholic Church was engaged with fighting Islam.."
Good words, PJ. If it were not for the Crusades, Europe would be unwritten history and this country would not exist.
As for "I guess too much altar wine is affecting the Catholic heirarchy's ability to open a Qu'ran and read it." profitsbeard, that's just vulgar. At the very least, inform yourself. Read St. Augustine's Confessions before saying another word about Catholicism.
Humility, profitsbeard, humility.
In fact, pb, if it were not for the Catholic Church there would be no Europe , period. And were it not for the literate Irish who brought the British literacy (Irish made literate through the Church) Europe would have remained illiterate. No Europe - No USA.
Illiteracy remains a big problem in Islam.
profitsbeard -- What I've read of the Koran shows me an inferior hodgepodge of contradictory injunctions, without intellectual unity. I think Carlyle expressed it best: " a wearisome confused jumble" with "endless iterations, longwindedness, entanglement..." Admittedly, I approach this as a 21st century Westerner and cannot see this revelation from the perspective of a bedouin of the 8th century - which is the same perspective of many 21st century Iranian mullahs.
PJ - I suggest that if you have a criticism of another's remark that you make it without lapsing into an intemperate rant. By the way, if you are suggesting the crusades were the apotheosis of exemplary Christianity I can suggest some good books on the subject.
Hi Topdog, I realize that I may have seemed intemperate, perhaps in some aspects, however it was not a rant. I was completely coherent in what I was saying. If you want to call it cogent, then 'yes', I was completely adamant because Profitsbeard was building upon a supposition which was from a heading of Robert's, not the Vatican's, however what bothered me most was his ignorance of the facts and if you want to talk about ranting, then 'yes', that is what he was doing but he could not hide his true colours too long before showing anti-Catholic side.
I'd be the last person to claim that The Catholic Church and its history is perfect, because all of humanity is imperfect, however, Profitsbeard should get his facts straight, and tell us ahead of time, that his ranting is based upon his personal hatred of The Church rather than doing a 'one up' on what he thought made him look intelligent.
Quote from Topdog: "By the way, if you are suggesting the crusades were the apotheosis of exemplary Christianity I can suggest some good books on the subject."
I would suggest that you read my comments again and let me know where you thought I was suggesting that "the crusades were the apotheosis of exemplary Christianity". I don't recall saying that at all.
To even discuss the Crusades is like discussing any historical issue. One would have to consider the times and the mentality of that particular point in history.
I am unsure as to what your issues are with regards to the Crusades, as my original point had to do with the fact that they were a means to fight against the hordes of Islam. I was not trying to deify them as being exemplary of Christianity. They just were.
Again I am lost as to what your point is in all this, considering that now you know what I had not said in my original comments to Profitsbeard.
I have an extensive library covering many things and in particular, Church history, which of course, discuss the Crusades. What books did you have in mind?
PJ
GUYS:
How about Spencer's PIG Guide to islam and the Crusades?
Hey CGW, Excellent choice! Also, 'Great Moments in Church History' by Crocker is also a great read. There is the 3 volume work by Hughes entitled, 'A History of The Church'. All of these, including Spencer's 'Politically Incorrect...' book are great because they give a Catholic perspective.
PJ