Now we're talking turkey, even if Howard did "stop short." Why hasn't George W. Bush even gone this far? From AFP, with thanks to Sr. Soph:
MELBOURNE - Australian Prime Minister John Howard expressed “disgust” on Sunday at the possible execution by Afghan authorities of a convert to Christianity and linked the man’s fate to Australia’s troop presence in Afghanistan.“I am filled with disgust about the possibility that somebody could be executed because of their religion -- it breaks every rule of tolerance,” Howard told reporters in Melbourne.
Howard has already written to Afghan President Hamid Karzai asking him to intervene and save the life of Abdul Rahman, condemned to death for converting from Islam to Christianity, and he said Sunday that his government would continue pressuring Kabul over the issue.
“I will not drop off this issue, I will not just be content to write a letter and leave it at that,” he said. “I will continue to press very, very strongly.”
Howard went on to link the case of Rahman, 41, to the deployment of Australian troops who have been fighting Afghanistan’s ousted Taleban regime, a fundamentalist Islamic militia which introduced harsh Sharia law to Afghanistan before being toppled by US-led forces in late 2001.
“I do feel very deeply about this, particularly because there are Australian soldiers risking their lives to fight the Taleban and we’re not fighting the Taleban to allow something like this to happen,” Howard said.
Howard stopped short of explicitly threatening to withdraw the troops if Rahman is executed, but a government source told AFP his comments linking the two were meant to highlight the depth of Australia’s concern over the issue.
This is the type of clear and unabiguous langauge that should be coming from Jack Straw. Unfortunately the man is incapable. Shame on his head.
The new and improved BIG BAD JOHN! Please keep it up Mr. Prime Minister.
There's no doubt that John Howard has always put his money where his mouth is, as far as political expediency allows. Complete honesty from our leaders would, though, bring on WW III prematurely - which is why politicians must lie for the greater 'good' of their electorate.
I've just registered here, after following JW for quite a while now, but don't remember ever seeing Robert or Hugh reduce the issue to its most basic component; that the sorry story of Mohammadism is no more a religion than any of the other PERSONALITY CULTS we understand so well from recent experiences in Russia, China, North Korea etc.
The only difference being that modern atheistic nations lack the superstitious foundation to maintain the cult once they recognize their dead 'god' has finally gone the way of all flesh.
Islam is merely a PERSONALITY CULT - a typical, and now easily-understood cult of a local hero glamourized by ignorant acolytes.
Australian Prime Minister John Howard is awesome. I too wish that our President would have responded this way.
There is a power that comes from taking a stand. It may not always be a popular thing to do, it may not always be a PC thing to do and usually it is not. But the power of ones character shines through when taking a stand on what is right vs. not wanting to make waves.
Howard is ballsy...truly an abberation in the West.
To further Illustrate what I just said, compare:
The Personality Cult of Mao Tse Tung;
and his 'little RED BOOK' (written by him)
with
The Personality Cult of Mohammed;
and the 'Koran' ('attributed' to him).
Both did inestimable damage to their own people.
But, within a generation, the Chinese were smart enough to wake up to the fact that Mao was DEAD and no longer had power over them.
Not so the Arabs, after....how many generations?
I got this via a BBC link. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wire/ats-ap_top10mar26,0,5167325.story
If it is true (how reliable is the Los Angeles Times?)something has had an effect.
"KABUL, Afghanistan -- An Afghan court on Sunday dismissed a case against a man who converted from Islam to Christianity because of a lack of evidence and he will be released soon, officials said.
The announcement came as U.S.-backed President Hamid Karzai faced mounting foreign pressure to free Abdul Rahman, a move that risked angering Muslim clerics who have called for him to be killed."
Of course it will all be useless if he is torn limb from limb by his brothers as he steps outside the prison.
Australian Prime Minister John Howard has more courage than any of the other Western powers! and he deals with as much nutty libeals!
Karzai should put those immans in jail for inciting hatred! should pull the rug from underneath those clerics who impose their will on the country. they were not electec! Karzia should act like an elected leader and lead his country out of this sharai right now!
Lulu wrote:
Australian Prime Minister John Howard has more courage than any of the other Western powers! and he deals with as much nutty libeals!
Just to clear up a small point; John Howard, Prime Minister of Australia, is head of the LIBERAL party, which is currently in government here.
So when IS a good day to start WWIII?
I am not saying this to be disrespectful; we know it's going to scar the body and heart of the world. But I don't agree with the idea that we can't fight now because it will start WWIII. There is no golden time-we start it when it must be started and we continue until we win. The odds are not going to be greater in our favor in 20 years.
We are not only fighting for a man's life. We are fighting against the very idea that brought airplanes crashing into the WTC, Pentagon, the fields of Shanksville, that brought terrorists into Iraq, on and on and on-the idea of Islam by the Sword, the idea that the world will allow Islamists their bloody and blasphemous carnage and the world will just have to submit to it. That is what Osama wants. That is what every jihadi wants-the West bending in the hams as Islam is forced upon us by the sword.
Mr. Howard, a leader when we need one most, understands this perfectly.
As a Canadian, I feel the same way as does Mr. Howard.
I have already said pretty much the same in a post of my own, entitled "A Warning to Afghanistan":
http://thecanadiansentinel.blogspot.com/2006/03/warning-to-afghanistan.html
Mr. Prime Minister, esteemed and true leader of the free world. I salute you and salute you, again and again.
The Yanks and the Brits, the Canadians and yes, even the Irish look to you as a true leader who is willing to stand up and be counted.
All Bush is, is a puppet and right now, there is nobody with any substance to pull his strings.
All Tony Blair is, is a windbag of absurd ignorance.
Jack Straw has the right name. He is a man of 'straw'! Gutless and spineless.
The Taoiseach of Ireland is only interested in keeping his ass cushioned and yet right on our doorstep is a huge mosque and being such a small country as we are, we are ripe for takeover.
If I left anyone out, please feel free to place your name in the above unless I missed anyone who has balls like our highly esteemed Prime Minister, John Howard.
I just gotta' say it again.
We salute you Sir!
PJ
Our representatives in Washington are far too quiet on this issue, and the President himself is digracing this country by not standing up and DEMANDING that this man be release at once.
Bring the troops home. Fighting to save Muslims that do not share our own regard for human life is a complete waste of time, blood and treasure.
(Make that threat Mr. President, and that Christian will be released overnight. Or we'll see another Islamic riot.)
That is so obvious, and yet it is too difficult for a man like Blair or Straw to say.
John Howard is splendid. I really envy the Aussies. I wish we could have him instead of Blair.
That is so obvious, and yet it is too difficult for a man like Blair or Straw to say.
John Howard is splendid. I really envy the Aussies. I wish we could have him instead of Blair.
And I'd like to urge y'all to get to know new Conservative Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper, who recently actually STAYED in Afghanistan with our troops, right in the face of the surrounding enemy.
Canada is back!
http://thecanadiansentinel.blogspot.com/2006/03/finally-real-leader-for-canada-at-home.html
Unfortunatley there is one seriously important aspect of fighting, and winning this war that is clearly missing whether it is in Afghan, or Iraq.
We can't fully win this war without changing its religious culture under sharia and the Islamic driven ideology. Until we do that; in the long run nothing really changes outside of different names and different faces.
To really win the war against these totalitarian societies would require a full and true occupation that completly removes its driving religious tenants from the occupied land, unfortunatley America or the other coalition countries do not have the stomach for that much effort.
The real enemy of the west is the religious culture itself, thus in the end we will have achieved very little.
"Security is not achieved from being loved,it comes from being feared"
Sorry, my first post is OT.
vader said:
"Just to clear up a small point; John Howard, Prime Minister of Australia, is head of the LIBERAL party, which is currently in government here."
Just to clear up a cleared up point, the Liberal party in Australia would be considered a conservative party in the U.S., similar to some of the Liberal Democrat parties in Europe. Use of the term liberal in the U.S. is a misnomer, since the entities so described are mostly collectivist, nanny-state supporters, something that the Liberal Party (AU) is definately not. You can read their platform at:
http://www.liberal.org.au
You will find that what they support is hardly considered "liberal" in the U.S. and more libertarian, in line with a more literal definition of "liberal".
Guiltfree wrote:
"So when IS a good day to start WWIII?
"I am not saying this to be disrespectful; we know it's going to scar the body and heart of the world. But I don't agree with the idea that we can't fight now because it will start WWIII. There is no golden time-we start it when it must be started and we continue until we win. The odds are not going to be greater in our favor in 20 years."
___
We may be drifting a little sideways from the general flow here, Guiltfree, but I think there is no good day to start WWIII, which is why 'good' politicians lie their hearts out to avert it.
When that awful black and gloomy day finally drops on the world it will not be between us and a bunch of pathetic poverty-stricken camel-drivers with their heads stuck in the sands of the 7th-century, will it?
Islamic terrorism is merely a diversion, a catalyst to give ALL the big boys a legitimate excuse to gear up more equitably for 'The Big One'.
vader said:
"Just to clear up a small point; John Howard, Prime Minister of Australia, is head of the LIBERAL party, which is currently in government here."
Almost 90 years ago, Lenin was writing about political parties in Australia and pointed out with support of strong arguments that Australian Liberal party is in fact a conservative party, as the Liberal Party of Australia calls itself Labour party.
Sheik er' Bouti,
The word 'liberal' is often thrown around like some sort of identifying feature of 'devil-worshippers', as though the Papal definition of '89 still had some relevance. The Australian 'Liberal' Party' is comparable in many ways to the British 'Conservative Party' and can hardly be identified with small 'l' liberals.
Unless compared to ultra-right-wing extremists, in which case its philosophy is - yes, liberal; ie, moderate, balanced, sensible, humane - for the common good.
Vader,
Agreed. I think we are aguing the same point, but the "common good" that it aims to achive is not based on trampling the rights of individuals, contrary to little "l" liberalism as well ultra far right thought. The Liberal Party in AU holds classic liberal beliefs, not the popular definition of today. The lines in the U.S. are either unclear or misunderstood. The libertarian party in the U.S. is considered far right wing. That to me is quite odd.
As a tribute to what appears to be unique in the Western world, the absence Down Under of widespread and premature political dementia, one re-posts from the past:
"Australia, a mysterious yet comforting place about which I know only the following:
There are kangaroos.
There is the book with the green cover, by Mrs. Aeneas Gunn, called "We of the Never Never" which I have on my bookshelf.
There is Les Murray.
There was Henry Handel Richardson.
There are Blue Mountains.
There was a famous Australian explorer whose first name was Lachlan, just like the son of Mr. Murdoch.
There is an excellent magazine called Quadrant, and Simon Leys (Pierre Ryckmans) writes for that magazine, or has written for it, and may even now be living in Australia.
English convicts were transported there. Think of Pip's friend in "Great Expectations."
Clive James comes from there.
Barry Humphreys comes from there.
The last scene in "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" when Glen Headly has ensnared a group of Australians about to be parted from their money by Glen, and the con-men played by Michael Caine and Steve Martin, reinforces the cliche about Australians and barbecues.
There was "Muriel's Wedding" with that catchy tune sung by Muriel and her thin friend.
There was a coelecanth caught in 1936 off the shores of Austral....oops, that was the Union of South Africa. Sorry, wrong country. Skip that -- sorry, the eraser on the pencil is too hard and won't do the trick.
There was a famous movie about a World War I deserter and he wore an Australian bush-hat.
There was ANZAC. There was Gallipoli. There were Australian troops everywhere and anywhere they should have been, in every war, and their attitude was always right.
There is the most beautiful and variegated fauna and flora, and the macrolepidoptera aren't bad either.
There are Aborigines, and fake-aborigine poets dreamed up so that they could have prizes lavished on them for their authentic poetic voice and then the scheme was revealed and many Australians had egg on their faces -- well-deserved and scrambled egg.
There are large cities called Sydney, Melbourne, and Brisbane.
There is the Outback, with Alice Springs.
There are lambs to be shorn.
At night tourists are taken spotlighting for wombats.
The country is altother wonderful and I have hardly scratched the surface -- all I have scratched is that shallow part of my pre-caffeinated brain which is called "What I Know About Australia."
There is Robert Hughes, whose book on the country is very long.
There may be an Oxford Book of Australian Verse but I don't own it.
There was Patrick White.
There is Van Diemen's Land.
There is Tasmania. There is the Tasmanian Devil.
There are many marsupials. There is the monitor. There is the duck-billed platypus.
There are large crocodiles in Queensland.
There is Keith Windschuttle.
The botanist Joseph Banks had a field-day in Australia, and there is a genus of plants known as Banksia.
New Zealanders like to make sure that everyone knows they are not Australians, the way Canadians like to make sure that everyone knows they are not Americans.
There are a lot of big mining companies in Australia. Broken Hill is one of them.
Australia was discovered now on this coast, now on that. One of the earliest of its discoverers was William Dampier, whose "Voyages" became famous. Another was Captain James Cook, whose report of his voyages is accompanied by a very nice atlas.
Australia is one of my favorite countries. I like the sound of its name. The very idea of Australia comforts me.
Yes, time to toast Botany Bay, and Watkins Tench, and what's past, and passing, and to come.
I love Australia."
Today Australians can keep their heads high. Higher then Americans, British and most others.
Unfortunately, we praise something, which should be the norm for all civilized people. Sadly it is not.
The Prime Minister of Norway is about to invite the new prime minister of “Palestine” to visit Norway. He said that Norway will continue to support the fight of Palestinian people against Israel.
I wander what US is going to do? A NATO member supports a terrorist state!!!
Proud Vikings became a mat for muslims to wipe their feet on it.
Yeh i get proud of John Howard, Peter Costello and the Danes :)
Hugh,
You love the roos and Aussieland, that rocks, I have 2 baby wombats i am rearing. They are like little Aussie bears about 1 foot high and can do damage like army tanks lol.
I am proud of our convict past its a unique and tough past not whining and winging but strong and no nonsense.
We voted to keep the Queen, we respect tradition and our Diggers (Anzacs and WW2)
The PC still has some clout here but these days due to the abuse of it's ideals by islam, it's veiwed more as an emotional or mental problem in people.
Taken from:
26 March 2006
TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRIME MINISTER
THE HON JOHN HOWARD MP
LANGHAM HOTEL, MELBOURNE
JOURNALIST:
Mr Blair who as you are aware is here, probably for the last time as the British Prime Minister,
what do you plan to talk to him about while he is here?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I am not making any predictions about his future, it is a matter for him. I enjoy a very
good relationship with Mr Blair. We may come from nominally different sides of the political
arena, but we get on very well and I respect very much the courage that he has displayed on
issues such as Iraq where his steadfast, consistent, whole-hearted commitment to the Coalition
operation has been in stark contrast to the cut and run philosophy of his contemporaries in the
Australian Labor Party. We will talk about Iraq, we will talk about terrorism, we will talk
about a number of bilateral issues. I will certainly intend to raise with him the concerns I
have about the possible execution of the man in Afghanistan because he has converted to
Christianity. I wrote to President Karzai about that matter on Friday. I am filled with disgust
about the possibility, that somebody could be executed because
of their religion. It breaks every rule of tolerance, it breaks every canon of what the world
needs at the moment. If ever the world needed an attitude of ‘live and let live’ when it comes
to religious belief, it is now. I mean we are constantly enjoined to display as a nominally
Christian country and quite properly so, tolerance towards non-Christian religions in this
country which we do; we do very painstakingly and very properly. I therefore find it deeply
offensive that a country that is receiving assistance from our soldiers should contemplate the
execution of somebody because they’ve changed their religion. That is an appalling proposition
and I feel very strongly about it. There are reports over night that President Karzai is going
to involve himself directly with this issue, I hope he does, he needs to, because I will not
drop off this issue. I will not just be content to write a
letter and leave it at that, I will continue to press very, very strongly. I do feel very deeply
about it, particularly because there are Australian soldiers risking their lives to fight the
Taliban and we are not fighting the Taliban to allow something like this to happen.
JOURNALIST:
Do you think that one incident could become a flashpoint for a who change in attitude?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think what will happen as a result of this, and the views I hold I am sure are held by Mr
Blair and President Bush, and indeed by the Canadians, the Canadians have 2300 people in
Afghanistan, a lot of people have forces in Afghanistan, this is fundamental stuff, you cannot
support a regime that allows people to be executed because they have changed their religion. I
mean that is about is fundamentally intolerant and as medieval as you could possibly get.
JOURNALIST:
Have you had a response from Mr Karzai?
PRIME MINISTER:
No not yet, no. Anything else?
JOURNALIST:
Apart from writing to him…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think have said a few things this morning haven’t I?
sorry for the big cut and paste i don't have a link.
"Liberal" in the US is more akin to "libertine" than "libertarian", as opposed to the apparent situation in most other countries. One means 'I wanna do whatever the hell I want and not be judged by it' while the other means 'I want the government to mind its own damned business'. Clear things up?
Johnny Boy,
What a man! I love you!
I love Australia."
Posted by: Hugh
Your invitation to visit still stands...
Where the bloody hell are you?
(The last line above being the -controversial- new slogan to attract overseas visitors to Oz!)
Yes, not only is Mr Howard not scared to say what he feels he has intrigity in what he says and does. He is also moral in his private life, thus can be trusted in his public life to try and do the right thing by the people. A leader who will cheat in his private life will have no hesitation to cheat with the country and it's people. In my opinion and others that I speak to, he would have to be the first Australian Prime Minister for over 50 years who we are not ashamed to have represent Australia overseas...
Perhaps Clerics who say this man should be executed for his faith, should themselves be executed for inciting hatred. We haven't as yet heard any Muslims from the West or Muslim countries stand up and say anything, WHY. Is it because they agree with this execution and because they want the whole world to be Muslim, which just as history has shown in the countries that they have invaded, once they take over the same thing will happen to us.
guiltfree, I agree with you, another war will happen, and as they breed like flies with their many wives, they are breeding their own war machines, making them more entrenched in the west. When they have grown to so many within their countries of adoption, how can we fight such an evil, without mass of lossses. When their numbers have grown to become a force as in Mohammads time, it is then that they will do what the Quran says, to fight until all is for Allah in the whole world. They will do anything to destroy us unless we convert to Islam. Surely our leaders have had the brains to read the last three quarters of the quran to know what they are up against???
Hugh wrote:
"There are a lot of big mining companies in Australia. Broken Hill is one of them."
Broken Hill is also the location of the first Jihad attack in Australia. In 1915, two Moslems living in Broken Hill responded to the call for Jihad from the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire. They placed an ice-cream cart near the railway line several kilometres out of town, and waited for a train to come along.
That was on New Years Day, and a train loaded with miners and their families,heading to nearby Silverton for a picnic day, was soon passing by. The train slowed as it approached the ice cream cart, and the Jihadists opened fire on a train which was loaded with unarmed men, women & their children. Several were killed, more were injured, before the train pulled away.
When the townfolk in Broken Hill heard the news, they took their rifles and went looking for the Moslem murderers. They found them not far from the scene of their cowardly attack, and the Moslems were shot and killed in the ensuring battle.
Three points of note:
1 - it was the citizens of Broken Hill who brought this Jihad to its conclusion, no messing around with police arrests, court trials, etc.
2. - Ice Cream & Jihad, seems like a familiar pattern ? (Lodi, California, etc.)
3. - The Australian troops in the mid east soon brought the Ottaman Empire to its end. The Australians routed them in Beersheba, were the first allied troops to enter Jerusalem, kicked them out of Damascus (no, it wasn't that queer T E Lawrence), defeated them at Meggido, and stopped them fleeing from Lebannon. For information on the Beersheba attack, see http://www.bfpnatloff.com/index.asp?cat=41550
Same here. I'll add cricket to the list - the Aussies are still #1 in cricket, something they have been throughout the 90's.
Here's to Sir Don Bradman, Steve Waugh, Glen McGrath and Shane Warne.
My great uncle was in the 10th lighthorse, and died in action at Beersheba.
That was a GREAT generation.
The Arabs like to make great claims for the so-called Arab Revolt against the Turks. In fact, the Arabs did almost nothing to push out the Turks. A few hundred warriors harassed the Hejaz Railway, and that was about it. Australian troops drove the Turks out of Damascus, and then the British decided to pretend that the Arabs had had something to do with it (just as in the Gulf War, the Americans pretended that Arab, especially Saudi, troops, had played a role -- they didn't). And today, in Iraq, whenever there is real fighting, the Americans have to do it, though they exaggerate the role of the "Iraqi" army in order to help its morale, and that of Americans who may see Iraq, correctly, as a tarbaby without a Zip-o-dee-doo-dah Song-of-the-South ending in store.
And that's the truth. It's actual. Everything is far from being satisfactual.
Hugh, my father who was high up in the army, said that the Arabs have always been cowards, unless they are in a group, and can be their usual bullies...he said that they would have a feast with you laughing and seeming to be happy with you, and then stab you in the back when you were outside..
World wide they are bullies... on mass of course...
Just to clear up what may be a confusing "clarrification" (to Americans) given above about John Howard's party - the Liberal Party. The word Liberal in this case is used in the original "classical" (or European) meaning. The Liberal Party in Australia is analogous to the Republican Party in the US.
Oops, I see someone beat me too it!
Infidel Pride - speaking as a long-time British resident, WHO is no.1 in Cricket, again? Care to remember certain events last summer?