And it looks as if the courageous Andrew Whitehead of Anti-CAIR has not had to back down one inch. His site says: "The policies and procedures of Anti-CAIR (ACAIR) have not changed in any way as a result of the CAIR lawsuit settlement."
From the New York Sun, with thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist:
An Islamic group has settled a $1.35 million libel suit against one of its critics, who operates a Web site charging that the organization, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, has links to terrorism.The terms of the settlement between the Muslim group and Andrew Whitehead of Virginia Beach, Va., are confidential, but the Web site, www.anti-cair-net.org, still includes the statements Cair contended were libelous.
"Nothing has changed in that regard. It's as if this lawsuit had never existed," said Mr. Whitehead, 48, a former Navy sailor.
An attorney for Mr. Whitehead, Reed Rubenstein, described the outcome as a victory for his client. "This is the first time somebody has stood up and stopped these folks," the lawyer said.
A spokesman for Cair, Ibrahim Hooper, confirmed that the libel case was dismissed earlier this month on the request of both parties. "It was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount," he said.
Asked if he was suggesting that Mr. Whitehead paid the organization to drop the case, Mr. Hooper said, "We filed the suit." Asked again, the spokesman simply repeated the statement.
An attorney for Cair, Jeremiah Denton III, declined to comment.
The group's lawsuit, filed in a Virginia state court in March 2004, accused Mr. Whitehead of libeling Cair by calling it "a terrorist supporting front organization that is partially funded by terrorists." The suit also charged that Mr. Whitehead falsely claimed Cair was founded by supporters of a Palestinian Arab terrorist group, Hamas, and that the organization favored the "overthrow of the United States Constitution" and the imposition of Islamic law, known as Shariah.
In June, Cair amended its suit against Mr. Whitehead, dropping its challenge to several of the statements, including the claim that the group was started by Hamas members and has received funds from terrorists.
Mr. Hooper said that despite the withdrawal of the suit, his organization, which describes itself as "a grassroots civil rights and advocacy group," still contends that Mr. Whitehead's assertions are false. "We've always denied them. We continue to deny them," the spokesman said.
Mr. Rubenstein said Cair's interest in settling the suit intensified late last year just as a judge was considering whether the group should be forced to disclose additional details about its inner workings, including its financing and its alleged ties to Hamas and other terrorist groups.
"It would have opened up Cair's finances and their relationships and their principles, their ideological motivations in a way they did not want to be made public," said Mr. Rubenstein, who represented Mr. Whitehead without charge.
ITs already a great day with this Great News for all freedom loving people! this is good lesson to stand on principles and do not back down. Bravo Mr. Whitehead,& Reed Rubenstein!
Looks like Cair would have scored an "own goal"!
Funny how these things happen.
The failure to shut down CAIR as the primary propaganda arm of Saudi-funded Wahhabi Islam in the US -- with its well-documented ties to terrorists and those who finance terrorism -- is one of the most egregious failures and glaring examples of toxic hypocrisy of the Bush White House. With its unlimited, recycled petrodollar funding and its ability to intimidate and harrass its adversaries into silence, CAIR is instrumental in the insidious campaign to further Jihad under the cover of civil liberties.
THIS OUTFIT MUST BE SHUT DOWN.
During WWII the HUAC shut down the NAZI front organization the German-American Bund, so why not CAIR?
The best part of this story is the fact that even with an unlimited amount of Saudi money CAIR still lost. Allah must have been asleep at the wheel on this one. I don’t know you Andrew Whitehead but I’ll buy you a round anytime. If I had the money I’d kick a few bucks your way to help with you legal costs (that’s a hint for you rich people).
I can only hope Mr. Whitehead laughed allah the way to the bank.
I guess the way to defeat this "grassroots" organization has just been shown to all, with a real grassroots campaign. Ronin, I'll go you one further....I'd like to buy the Judge a round too.
Mr. Rubenstein said Cair's interest in settling the suit intensified late last year just as a judge was considering whether the group should be forced to disclose additional details about its inner workings, including its financing and its alleged ties to Hamas and other terrorist groups.
That's what should have been allowed to occur because now in the minds of many CAIR is free to spin.
Cynic you are right they are still free to spin but they also know they are being watched closely and a little paranoia goes a long way.
WIDEAWAKE, great idea, please make it Danish beer
St.Paulie Girl?
I don't drink beer, I was thinking of an Austrailian or Israeli Shiraz, or my personal favorite Jack Daniels. Either way Ronin I like your posts and do know the story of the 47 ronin. Maybe the next judge will order full financial disclosure... BTW, has anyone checked out the "indepth" coverage the ACLU has on their website about any of this? Or Amnesty Int.? The Left is truly pathetic and their agenda so transparent I hope they lose more seats in the house and senate this year. Pathetic.
I tried to engage Sam Cedar(geusthosting for Al Frankin on AIR_Lib radio) in discussion about CAIR and he hung up on me, then continued to rant on about the Christian Rights "oppressin" of Gays in this country. Maybe if enough of us called in to the LIBERAL talkshows and got hung up on their listeners would wake up to the real truth of it.....can you say Neocon?
Sorry Guesthosting- "opression"
Andrew Whitehead is an American hero...he dont back down from nobody, no time...Put him on your hero list and visit his site sometime.
http://www.anti-cair-net.org/
Roybatty,
What are you, an agent provacatuer? What is this "subhuman" bullshit? Don't pollute this web-site with your racial slurs. All you succeed in doing is discrediting us and the validity of our message...which may be precisely what your intent is.
Perhaps I'm slow-witted, but it's not clear to me whether Andrew Whitehead did or did not have to pay money to CAIR (or vice versa). If he did, that has a chilling effect on free-speech (assuming the evidence against CAIR is good, which I believe has been proven by Daniel Pipes). Any info on this?
This is as important as capturing Moussavi before 9/11! Are we gonna let this one slip by for more 9/11s to happen?
Huge, any suggestions on "next steps"?
I'll happily spare Cornelius the trouble.
Mr. Whitehead should seek a U.S. Dept. of Justice investigation of CAIR for violating his first amendment protected civil rights.
Islam is an intolerant religion in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere and is a danger to the free exercise of religion and the free and open exchange of ideas and opinions (AKA free speech) in America.
CAIR calls itself a "civil rights organization, " but some advocates of religious tolerance in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere think CAIR is an intolerant "civil rats orginazation" that promotes an intolerant religion in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.
I never have and never will call Muslims sub human. Many of them are pretty darn smart as long as you don't talk with them about Islam. I can go on for 15 minutes about how evil Muhammad was, how evil the Koran is, how evil the radical Imams are, but I do not call these hypnotized Muslims, sub human. They are duped by the biggest con artist of all time. The worst I will say about Muslims is you can't con an honest man and Muslims are not honest because they love to indulge in base emotions. Islam is an emotional flight of fancy with zero logic. Similar to Mohamed's nighttime ride on al Burak
roybatty-
You and your ilk are the greatest obstacle to getting the message out. Sub-humans as you call them can't be evil. It is the perversion of the human being that fills the sincere among us with horror.
We grieve for the waste, horror and perversion of spirituality that Islam has wrought. There is no grief in your voice - yours is the HAPPY voice of self-righteous hate. "Oh boy! Tell me something even more shocking so I can hate them more! This is fun!"
I myself believe there is a sexual 'kick' to those who get happy and excited in the way that you do.
This is fantastic news. I am so happy, I can barely sit still writing this. I love you Andrew! Way to go mate! º¿º
poetcomic1-
Is roy batty?
Benjamin
There's no doubt Mr. Whitehead didn't pay a penny to settle this. CAIR caved in at the discovery stage: they simply could not afford to disclose their inner workings. They are too putrid and smelly. CAIR could have produced some benign documents, like many parties do initially. It's clear there was nothing they could produce that was not self-incriminating.
CAIR must have thought the case would not go this far, that Mr. Whitehead would chicken out and remove his site. BIG MISTAKE. There are still people who would not be intimidated by CAIR's tactics.
CAIR is going to intensify its ideological assault now. The chairman, I believe, one Parvez Ahmed, is already hard at work trying to sell the phony notion of "Islamophobia" as the next social peril in the U.S. It may work with the San Francisco Chronicle crowd, but not in my neighborhood. This hoax should not be allowed to pass. Expose it as a huge deception tactic every way you can.
Ronin
You're one heck of a guy.
Frank asks:
Is Roy Batty?
No - Roy is not Batty for I confess shame-facedly to occasionally having the feelings I accuse him of.
Isn't it exciting! We are called on to be knights, pure of soul, defending the nobility of mankind. It scares me if I'm up to it.
This is one lawsuit I wished had gone to trial. Yeah, I know, easy for me to say since I wasn't the one having to pay the legal fees to defend anti-cair from a bogus lawsuit brought by hooper and his jihadi boys at cair.
The terms of the settlement seem to be subject to an agreed gag order which is standard operating procedure in many civil suits.
I'm just speculating, but I've got a very strong feeling Mr. Whitehead won the settlement hands down without paying a dime to cair, perhaps even forcing cair to pay some if not all of his own attorney fees. I wouldn't beleive the implied suggestion from hooper that cair got a dime unless i heard that from Mr. Whitehead himself.
This case would not have been settled if cair thought it could win. In order to win cair would have to go to court. in order to go to court cair wuld have to disclose info it doesn't want made public. info that, if made public, would prove whiteheads allegations to be true.
This is victory for Whitehead and may serve as a detterent to cair's bogus lawsuits in the future.
This is the same kind of show we saw in the mosque deal up here in Boston: sue the questioners and then back out when it's ready to go to court and the defendants have gathered evidence to support their claim. Further news of the Boston mosque has fell back into the giant black void of the media here. Cair and the mosque boys should be forced to pay the defendants fees as part of the deal.
Re: the epithet subhuman. It is the genius of the modern West (I shouldn't have to add, influenced by its Judaeo-Christian and Graeco-Roman foundations) to have engendered a philosophical anthropology whereby that epithet is impossible to apply to those embraced by the Western symbolism Mankind, which includes all members of that other symbolism developed with more sophistication in the West than elsewhere, human, Western and non-Western alike. This system of philosophical anthropological symbolism is not flawless and has been marred here and there with the sometimes unphilosophical infiltration of modern natural scientistic ideology; but it is still superior to every other philosophical anthropology in history (insofar as it builds upon and does not confute Judaeo-Christian and Graeco-Roman foundations). This system has furthermore been internally attacked by those who try to introduce taxonomic borderlines within Mankind -- e.g., the Nazi Untermensch ("Subhuman") -- but such tendencies have remained nevertheless internally resisted by a consensus of Western rationality. Islamic philosophical anthropology, like the Nazi one, does seem to have the category of subhuman -- the Infidel (and perhaps also females in general, Muslim and non-Muslim alike). (This is another feature that Islam shares with ancient Gnosticism: the division of Mankind into two races, one to be saved, the other not.) Anyway, we didn't have to play Hitler's game of deformed philosophical anthropology in order to defeat him with our overwhelming, tragically necessary, righteous violence.
No, the problem is not that Muslims are subhuman; the more vexing problem is that they are human.
Congratulations to Andrew Whitehead for his victory over CAIR. CAIR and other Muslim groups attempt to use lawsuits to silence critics. Mr Whitehead's victory is also a victory for free speech in America.
the muslims who are raised with this hellish cult of islam are all too human, l call them monsters! what kind of religion that calls for the death of man for leaving it? those statements from their clerics just tells the world what type of so called religon of peace islam is all about,, or not about. the more they call for his death the more the rest of the world wakes up and sees how truly evil islam has always been. If you look at how most of Christianity was spread by a few people at a time, and its stories and lessons took hold without the sword as was islam. The Jesuit Priests came into Canada with just the fur traders "courrior des bois" and spread Christianity with their courage and stories of Jesus. Many Jesuits were tortured especially by the Iroquois, but Jesuits had such moral clarity and courage that it inspired many to become Christians. There are no comparisons with Islam!
It is a shame that Mr. Whitehead and his attorneys must do the job of Homeland Security and the media at large; the lawsuit against Mr. Whitehead was an veiled attack on our constitution and the United States itself and should have been all over the news. CAIR is the organization that should be under attack and scrunity by the media and by law enforcement.
That such a victory, a victory in the war on terror, must come in defending attacks against individual citizens in civil court reveals just how topsy-turvy the world truly is.
Television
Come again?
ROY BATTY,
The comments of 'Television' characterize my feelings pefectly, but let me just add:
1) Wahhabism is an 18th century movement that seeks to impose 7th century mores on us all; how you came up with the 12th century escapes me
2) The word "subhuman" has Hitlerian dimensions - this is not only how he referred to Jews, but to Slavs and others he felt were racially inferior. To adopt his terminology is to parlay his mindset...and to do so feeds the enemies of 'Jihadwatch' valuable ammunition to discredit this fine web-site as a 'hate blog.'
Control your emotions; be an adult. Attack Islam intelligently...don't wallow in the gutter. Thats all I have to say about it.
Cornelius, I agree: we must work above-board, logically and intelligently. I find using quotes from muslim leaders themselves very useful - nobody can call me 'islamophobic' that way.
Re "Maybe if enough of us called in to the LIBERAL talkshows and got hung up on their listeners would wake up to the real truth of it.....can you say Neocon?"
I'd suggest you use the gay liberal Bruce Bawer's book 'While Europe Slept' as the way in, Bruce has also published many useful articles online, that you can easily refer talkshow hosts to. I find his attitude very clear and definitely free from racism and xenophobia. Hirsi Ali and Irshad Manji are also very useful as feminist references.
It is true that all promotion of intolerance of religious expression in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere must be only expressed by such as Ibra-himGoering Hooper and that we Infidel-Subhumans must be submissive. Islam is an intolerant religion in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere for sound reasons! Heil Hooper!
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/13597999-S-1.jpg
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/images/media/july-dec02/pre4.jpg
Tis a lovely day in the eye's of this God fearing American, the SMACKDOWN has been put on CAIR and you can bet there will be many more to come thanks to Mr. Whitehead and his efforts to inform the world of this VILE IDEOLOGY called islam.
Let the good times roll.
Look at pathetic BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/index.shtml
Cynic
Not only are they free to spin, but they haven't even been financially damaged enough. Besides, who paid whom? I diagree with what Whitehead did - assuming that he was on top in this fight, he should have carried it all the way. Of course, since it was CAIR who filed the lawsuit, they were in the drivers seat, but nonetheless, Whitehead should have refused to settle.
That way, CAIR would have had no honorable way out - they would have had to either flush down more cash down the toilet (along with the now proverbial Gitmo Qurans) or simply drop the lawsuit on their own - the equivalent of fleeing the battlefield and looking like the loser, as opposed to the undisclosed outcome and as you said, being free to spin the results their way. Either outcome would have been preferrable.
Besides, it would have forced CAIR's internal workings, and additional ties to terror groups out in the open. That is something that needed to happen, but hasn't. If it did, CAIR would have been a pariah, or even if the Media did suck up to them, their opponents could always have waved in their face their terror ties, and labelled them the American version of Islamic Johad.
It's that age old story - never allow Muslims to retreat gracefully. They work on the adage, "He who bites and runs away, lives to fight another day." That's the last thing we need. Instead we needed to euthanize this dog (apologies to all canine lovers and canines out there). It's a shame that ANTI-CAIR let go of such a golden opportunity.
This is not the time for Happy Hour.
Wow, I leave for my normal Saturday routine of wearing my “support Denmark t-shirt” to the swap meet (lots of muslims there ) and come back to find you are discussing weather or not to name call. While, I normally don’t call individuals or groups names. I have looked back at some of my earlier posts and I have been guilty when goaded or consuming beverages to support my friends the Danes (I think that beer is stronger than US beer). Anyway, I think you would have to use some strong language to match the followers of old mo. Personally, while it would make us seem better not to name call, I have yet to see any muslim pointing a finger at our posts and complaining at least outside of this site. So I say name call if you must but remember we are almost all on the same side. My friends Naseem and Mohideen being the normal opposing team. On a happy note, I saw this:
Ronin
You're one heck of a guy.
Posted by: ovidius_naso
Although I am not sure what I did to earn the praise, thank you for it. Remember also to thank Robert for getting into this fight earlier than most of us and for giving us a voice, while you are at it, add Hugh, Rebecca, and the rest of the JW/DW gang. I love reading all the posts here, it is fun, educational and I had to buy a dictionary to translate some of the words used into conversational English. I’m now going to see if I can figure out what ovidius_naso means. Like my grandmother would have said “them people be deep”.
Attorney Rubenstein did a good clean job on this defamation suit.
Reading between the lines, we can surmise that he sent a "discovery request" demanding a list of all their funding sources and amounts for the last five or six or ten years, a list of all officers and directors and their resume's, a copy of all checks written and wire transfers made to and from the organization; copies of correspondence to and from the organization; bail bonds posted; copies of hard drive computer files and CD's; etc., etc., and etc.
The skeletons in the closet were waiting to be found, and they are still there.
The next step to take this organization apart limb by limb is for some clean-as-a-whistle muckraker to bring suit against CAIR for one of CAIR's own transgressions, and insist on the same discovery. CAIR won't be able to shake loose, and won't be able to trade dismissals because the plaintiff will be too clean, and, thus, unafraid.
I will throw a party in my area of Texas when CAIR's corporate charter is forfeited. Bar-b-que pork ribs and draft beer. Texas style.
Until then, the war goes on.
Some enterprising lawyer can contact the clerk of the court where this suit was filed and arrange to review the court's file in person. The actual questions posed, or list of documents requested, may be there.
In addition, there may be some pre-trial motions or orders or some other documents that shed some light on the happenings. Most reporters don't know enough to ask the right questions, and so don't uncover the little details that reveal the true essentials of the case or the disposition.
Sometimes a case can be won or lost because of the date stamp in the postmark on an envelope. Nobody wants to talk about that kind of thing. One person may have been negligent, and the beneficiary will want to claim superiority rather than luck. I'm not saying that such a thing happened here, only pointing out that the truth is elusive, and multi-dimensional.
Ronin
My depth goes as far south as Kentucky bourbon and Jamaican goat curries. Otherwise, I'm as flat as a communion wafer.
You'll find Ovidius as Ovid in an English dictionary, Roman poet and libertine who wrote, among other things, advice for lovers.
He carried on, in Rome and in exile on the Black Sea coast, at about the same time that Jesus' drama was happening in Judea. It's an intriguing set of contemporary events.
Naso is a family name that is a nickname that Roman people attached to their names according to some distinguishing feature (Roman names are strange) In Ovid's case, the nose seems to have been what stood out, though it's not clear if it was meant literally or metaphorically. Like having a good nose for adultareted wines or crypto-anarchists or such.
I'm using Naso very, very literally, if you know what i mean. Because of my nose, I wouldn't even think of setting foot in a Muslim country. I'm not a Jew, but I can easily be mistaken as one, as I've had in the past, and each time I saw it as an honor, not as a liability.
I hope CAIR is someday shut down.
Roy Batty
I understand the emotions that led you to say what you did. On 9/11 and after Besslan, emotions tended to get a bit high. But that was then. When posting on a site such as JW or DW, one needs to read and read again what one has posted. Unfortunately sometimes, even that does not help, as some interpretation or aspect that you may have overlooked, becomes apparant. I have on occasion regretted what I had posted, and would have liked a mechanism to delete it.
Coming to the core. Social and legal issues such as execution for Apostasy are not the fault of present day Muslims. These were codified a 1000 years ago. Muslims thus, are the first and most oppressed victims of Islam, as they are the ones who have to live with its consequences more then us, with no real option to leave. It is they who have had to close their minds to what has been happening in the evolution of society and adhere strictly to the tenets of a faith that has not changed with the times.
Muslims can be just as kind and nice people as any other. It is the doctrine of Islam that gives rise to social values that are so cruel and unjust on individual Muslims, be they women or those who take a more lax attitude to islam. It is this doctrine as well that goads them to become Jihadis.
For the last 5 years, islam has been under the spotlight. This spot light is getting ever more intense. What we hear in response are from those such as CAIR, the mullahs and imams. We have no idea what psychological pressure ordinary muslims are under. And they must be under pressure, specially those who live in the West. In this, they need our understanding if we wish to change hearts and minds. And why not? We have all the power, both physical and intellectual.
Criticise or even ridicule, but bear in mind that it is the doctrine and not its victims that is the target. I believe that is what this site is about.
Gee, texan, isn't that the SmokingGun.com's purview; posting court documents? Someone should tip 'em off....
In a way, it's a shame that CAIR wasn't exposed in court. On the other hand, Anti-CAIR can continue to publish. A victory for free speech.
Plus, Mr. Whitehead stayed the course. He has my admiration and my congratulations.
On Thursday, March 23, I posted on this topic at my blog, and one of Mr. Whitehead's personal friends stopped by. Read it here.
The DISCOVERY DOCUMENTS that Anti-CAIR filed can be viewed here:
http://www.anti-cair-net.org/DiscDocs.html
Finally... Mom's letting me post, but she gets to see everything before I hit -post-.
I think it's important not to use this site to call people nasty names because all it can really do is take away from the message that we're trying to send. It makes our cause seem less important or less legitimate if we stoop to ugly language and bad manners.
I just got done fighting this very issue with my history teacher, and I'm glad I won. I DON'T hate all Muslims and I DON'T think they're all evil. It's the belief that there is peace in Islam that is outrageous and must be stopped.
Plus, Ronin, I think you're really cool, too!
Cluephone here. If the "Christian Right" (and these folk are not true Christians at all, would stop scapegoating gays and "liberals", making a denial of their taxpaying rights a high priority, maybe the rest of the "liberals" might look anew at the threat of Islam.
Not only are liberals ignorant of Islam, most of the "Right" is as well, but to try and educate a liberal who sees the same agenda against Muslims, as a mirror of the agenda and rants against gays is an almost impossible task. At best, they will tell you what they tell me.. Islam is not a threat, because the U.S. (or Europe) will not become Muslim, and Muslims (so the believe, though it is not true) are the scapegoats of Christian Right and Zionists.
Not true, as I point out, that the neo cons approved and put in place two theocracies, Afghanistan and Iraq, after wasting our money and blood to depose a secular tyrant (who was actually liberal, as women didn't have to Hijab, went to University, Christians and gays weren't persecuted, and liquor was sold openly, not so with the nascent theocracy run by Ayatollah al Sistani and al Hakim (SCIRI), not so with Afghanistan as the Abdul Rahman case proves.
So what has been accomplished invading Iraq and Afghanistan, but making the world safe for Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, GCC and of course Iran who were partners in it all with Chalabi, the INC and the neo cons.
Has anyone heard anything on the "liberal" MSM about Ayatollah al Sistani (SCIRI Iraq) issuing a fatwa to kill gays, and that the mission is being carried out by his Badr Army Iraqi Exile Speaks Out Against the Targeting of Gay Iraqis by Shia Death Squads
Targeting gays, hmm something that the Muslims have in common with the Right wing.
This information needs to get out to the public, but like the Cartoons of Muhammad, the MSM won't touch it, and neither will your President and the neo cons, anymore than they will haul the government, that they installed and the constituion they approved, up short in Afghanistan or Iraq.
'Has anyone heard anything on the "liberal" MSM about Ayatollah al Sistani (SCIRI Iraq) issuing a fatwa to kill gays,~ nariz
More than likely, the Leftist MSM is so confused over which group to support, they prefer to just remain silent on the problem.
CAIR's legal-Jihad fell flat on allah's face. What next? Math-Jihad? Oh on.. I forgot: Mohammad could not even do simple arithmatic, much less Calculus, Trigonometry or simple statistics. Islam is good for little else other than rape, murder, lies, plunder and pillage.. but we already know that.
From the original article:
"... a judge was considering whether the group should be forced to disclose additional details about its inner workings, including its financing and its alleged ties to Hamas and other terrorist groups..."
Whitehead took it this far, brave & good.
But why doesn't the FBI/CIA dept. of homeland security and the IRS take over now and make life hell for CAIR?
What stops them from doing their bloody job?
For the last 5 years, islam has been under the spotlight. This spot light is getting ever more intense. What we hear in response are from those such as CAIR, the mullahs and imams. We have no idea what psychological pressure ordinary muslims are under. And they must be under pressure, specially those who live in the West. In this, they need our understanding if we wish to change hearts and minds. And why not? We have all the power, both physical and intellectual.
Criticise or even ridicule, but bear in mind that it is the doctrine and not its victims that is the target. I believe that is what this site is about.
Posted by: DP111
DP111, I would argue islam has been under a spotlight longer but that is not the issue. When foreigners go to an islamic country like Saudi Arabia as an example they are expected (sometimes forced) into following their laws and cultural norms. Most foreigners in the US follow our laws and cultural norms. Not all muslim break our laws and as you pointed out they are nice people. They stand out in a crowd if they follow the dress code, scarves for women, things like that. If they routinely broke average laws we would notice, excessive speeding, robberies, attacks would make the news. I don’t think they break those types of laws any more so than any other foreigner’s, at least not here in the USA. So why should we worry or treat them differently? Ideology sets them apart, they are expected by cultural norms to follow islamic law and not ours. They routinely hide extra wives, having one legal wife and several live in women. They routinely follow US law where practical and turn their backs on culture when convenient to them, Women driving alone would be an example. Drinking alcohol is another.
They will claim tolerance and to be a lover of peace except when you turn it from your own cultue. Don’t ask a muslim about 9/11 if he lives in the US, ask him about Kashmir, Chechnia or Sudan. Mujahideen are “holy men” when you do not include your own culture. I have always heard the PC lie about a small minority supporting terrorism but I think based on the muslim’s I have met the number to be 65% or higher. Why the difference? I don’t ask them about terrorism, I’d ask them to explain mujhaideen throughout history. They all had examples of great victories, I never heard of and all praised them but never terrorism. I often tell people any muslim is one verse away from violence. Why? Because if they follow the koran they have no other choice. They can not side with an infidel against a muslim, to do so robs them of the title. They are not compatible with our way of life and can not modernize any more than a Baptist can add an eleventh commandment. We as a people would never except a race of headhunters to practice their cultural norms nor would we win their hearts and minds. We would force our laws and norms on the headhunters. If muslims are feeling pressure it is of their own making. They could follow our laws but then they would not be "true" muslims.
OT, but needs to be said.
Quietwatcher’s son, you are way cooler than I am, I could not use a computer until I was in my 20’s. I didn’t start blogging until I found this site, if anything I am a late bloomer. Your mom must really be a special lady to let you expand your mind and form your own opinions about such an important topic. You can see we don’t always agree with the other posts but we can work out our problems without violence.
Hre is my email message to atorney Reed D. Rubinstein, at http://www.gtlaw.com/biographies/biography.asp?id=1768
Respected Mr. Reed D Rubinstein,
Hearty congratulations on the recent successful defence of Mr. Andrew Whitehead against CAIR Inc.
Your successful defence is a milestone in it's own rights, against the larger threat of Islamic terror, threatening USA and the free world. However, this may just a begining as CAIR Inc., a terror-supporter threatens secularism, tolerance and freedom in many different ways, all over USA.
Allow me to introduce to you, other defenders of free world:
Mr. Robert Spencer, Director, Jihadwatch.org.
Mr, Huge Fritgerald, Vice President, Jihadwatch.org.
The reason I introduce them is that Islam's deception is understood by few and these gentlemen are those few defenders of freedom, in their own rights.
Thanks to gentlemen like you, Robert and Hugh, there is a ray of hope for freedom lovers in USA and elsewhere.
Congratulations again!
Alert, good job.
We have no idea what psychological pressure ordinary muslims are under. And they must be under pressure, specially those who live in the West. In this, they need our understanding if we wish to change hearts and minds. And why not? We have all the power, both physical and intellectual.
Posted by: DP111 at March 25, 2006 06:19 PM
Sorry, the 'poor-Muslims-under-pressure' excuse does not cut it as here in the West, unlike in the Dark Islamic countries, noone is holding a sword to their head, if you know what I mean.
A nice try, none-the-less.
The next step to take this organization apart limb by limb is for some clean-as-a-whistle muckraker to bring suit against CAIR for one of CAIR's own transgressions, and insist on the same discovery. CAIR won't be able to shake loose, and won't be able to trade dismissals because the plaintiff will be too clean, and, thus, unafraid.
Posted by: texan at March 25, 2006 04:08 PM
Texan,
You share the sentiments of many like-minded, freedom-loving, Islam-exposing and sharp Americans.
Anyone who qoutes Barney Fife is a free thinker, way to smart for any muslim to fool.
This thread is without doubt the the best of them in all my 4 weeks of being here, other than the subhuman comment this thread has brought out the purpose of this site and that is to educate on matters of human rights and the violation of these rights..
- Welcome aboard quietwatcher's son.
Alert
"Sorry, the 'poor-Muslims-under-pressure' excuse does not cut it as here in the West, unlike in the Dark Islamic countries, noone is holding a sword to their head, if you know what I mean."
That's it. The "pressure" comes from the fact that for the first time in their lives they have to think on their own, and not what Mo said a zillion years ago and what the idiot, power-hungry imams/mullahs dictate to them now. That's what the pressure is all about. It's called having a conscience, and it comes nicely packaged with what we Americans call freedom.
To choose between right and wrong.
I for one am not going to waste any sorrow over poor Muslims' "difficult" plight. As I get older I am getting stingier with my emotions. I choose to give my compassion--and whatever help I can give--to the blacks in Darfur.
Hey Ronin,
Sorry if I got everyone here on a "Gee Ronin you're really cool" kick, even if it is kinda funny. I agree that the we all owe a great debt to Robert, Hugh and All The Rest of the staff at JW/DW for giving us this place to learn and a forum where we can exchange ideas while dusting off our dictionaries. I, being from Jersey and dealing w/Muslims everyday have met some who were nice, some who were'nt and one who I actually have had drinks with.....at his house. If I were more eloquent and diplomatic, I may have engaged him in discussion but since after years and the beers and stuff I kinda wimped out. I Told him that I read the quran and had been having nightmares since, not sure that went over well. He told me everything about how to live your life is in the quran, I asked him about women and he gave me the look like "hey dude you basically tell'em what to do". I then asked him if he and I were friends(our normal greeting"Hello my Friend") he said of course, I said "well then according to the quran you are a hypocrite for befriending a nonbeliever and Muhammed says you are going to burn in hell. To which he replied...."Allah knows best, I dont know all the quran, you should talk to someone who knows". I wonder how we fight that? "Allah knows best, I dont know all the quran, you should talk to someone who knows" That's as far as I was going to push, even though I'm sure I could 'wup him. anyway, My two liberal sisters hate my guts now some of my friends think I'm chicken little and some don't think anything can be done. Did I mention how COOL You are Ronin? LMAO,
Wide Awake
Wideawake, I never had a fan club so I don't know how to react to my newfound status, lol. I read this site for over a year before making a post, Hugh and Robert are my heroes and I'd rather them get the credit. Patriot is moving up because he can quote Barney, Texican cuz he has the kewl motto, and our world famous squirrel and spider killer because she started the entire motto thing. I have lots of heroes, one send me an email from Iraq telling me about close calls with an IED. I'm out of the active fight but many of my buddies are still in it. This is just my way to show support.
Hello everyone,
I want to tell you about a disturbing situation that my niece told me about a few hours ago.
I live in a very famous suberb in the U.S., and if this can happen here, it can happen anywhere. My niece has a friend who I've met through business contacts, who is Jewish and his son goes to the same high school my kids went to. I'll call the son Benjamin. In Ben's class there is a boy who I will call Ali. Ali is a bit of a loud mouth and a trouble maker in class. Last week after school, Ali followed Ben and his friends on their way home from school and Ali came after Ben with a stick , went to hit him and missed. Ben grabbed the stick from Ali and when he did, Ali's father appeared from nowhere and grabbed Ben by the neck. He also attacked one of Ben's friends. He then grabbed Ben's backpack and took off. When Ben's father complained to school officials, he was ostracized and treated poorly. Ben's father has asked for a meeting with Ali's father and school officials but the school is ignoring his request.
Ben is so disturbed by this incident that he refuses to go to school. He got his backpack back but is terrified to open it for fear it may explode.
This best defense is a good, albeit, deceitful offense is something I can no longer stomach. And Jews in our midst are being persecuted, just like they are over in the Middle East.
Last night I was watching History Investigators on the local PBS station and there was a sickeningly sweet, feel good story about an 18th century Kentucky woman who wrote a little something about the Koran in her copy book. After that story, we were treated to a heartening bit of BS about Islam in America, how there are 4 to 7 million of them here and 1500 mosques around our country. (Afterwards I looked up CAIR's website and it says there are 7 million Muslims and 2000 mosques in America. 'Guess truth is not a variable when you are trying to take over someone else's country?!) The one thing that struck me was how the guy on PBS whined about discrimination of Muslims after 9-11 and how Muslims were doing something about it by getting involved with our political process. I guess this means we can expect more harassment of Jew, Christians and other folk who aren't Muslims, in the United States and we can look forward to our public and school officials cowtowing to any bigmouthed Muslim and his dad if they don't like something we believe in.
Any ideas on how to help Ben and his dad?
Film it, have someone (Big) follow him home and catch it on film. You really need two one to film and one to jump in and break it up. Take the film to the police, a copy to the school and one to the press. That will end it. Good luck to you, I'm out for the night, I enjoyed it.
Islam is an intolerant religion in Saudi Arabia
Islam is not a religion in the least. Islam is an organized crime ring that its best poses as a satanic cult.
Don't give these thugs credit. At least, until they have seized rule over your children. Then you may want to kiss a little ass. But Islam is a religion? Haw.
CAIR must be shut down!!! PERIOD!!!
Not only that, all of Islamic organizations (include in American education institutes or schools) must be shut down too.
After that, every mosques in your country America has to be shutdown also, like what Indonesia government has done to many churches in my country Indonesia. In Islam, moslem can use mosque not only as a prayer place, but also as their place to spread their evil politic plans to topple your government, military base (like what moslems done in Iraq).
You Americans may call me a paranoid, but believe me, that's what Ive seen in here in my country Indonesia.
Don't be fooled by the game that Islam played with you.
I'll do my best to make Americans wakeup.
I read it today in The Sun while ridding the subway ( yes I still buy it but only because of MERI report) and I wanted to shout for joy!
The truth can not be stopped and I hope that some day a truly patriotic American Government will shut CAIR down as an enemy fifth column organization that it is, comparisons to the German Bund is very appropriate.
Mr Whitehead god bless you and I hope that someone is raising money for your fine organization.
I for one am not going to waste any sorrow over poor Muslims' "difficult" plight. As I get older I am getting stingier with my emotions. I choose to give my compassion--and whatever help I can give--to the blacks in Darfur.
Posted by: ovidius_naso at March 25, 2006 10:53 PM
ovidius_naso,
You got it!! Muslims deserve no break of any sort. We already know that Muslims bite the hand that feed them. How thankless is that? DOe sit warrant any break? Like you, am clear. Zero tolerane for Muslims. No business to Muslim entities. Let them and their oil go to hell!
Patroit2,
"Courage"
Dan Rather
Patriot2,
"Speak softly...and carry a big stick."
Teddy Roosevelt
Alert, just commenting on you link http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/index.shtml
"1001 Muslim Inventions
Coffee, carpets, cameras and clocks: just some of
the many 'forgotten' inventions of the Muslim
world being shown in a ground-breaking exhibition."
What is interesting is that inventions from the Muslim dominated world become 'Muslim Inventions' in the title. I guess in the same way all inventions in Europe, and US then become Christian inventions.
Or, maybe we could have an exhibition of 10,001 inventions by Men from the Men World.
All in all, a rather pathetic effort at Islam spin.
On the actual topic, the CAIR backdown is an admission of guilt on their part. Settling a law suit $x, admission of guilt by CAIR: priceless.
Ronin
This is so true - you actually put your finger on something I've had such trouble spelling out. When I lived in India, Muslims (particularly in the media) would be supportive of India on Kashmir, but would back anti-Israel, anti-Soviet (in Afghanistan), even anti-Pakistan (when they suspected they were being observed), but made it a point to ally with 'secular' dhimmis. This support for India allowed them to claim nationalistic credentials when they would launch their diatribes against hindu communal forces. However, to show that they were not total wackos, they'd also do things like editorialize against the Islamic revolution in Iran (very convinient, given that they are Sunnites and the Iranians Shiite).
I saw an illustration of what you're saying on FNC in the months following 9/11, when FNC's 'Foreign Affairs Expert' Manzoor Ijaz very liberally kept slamming the Taliban, Iran and Iraq, but when the topic came to Indo-Pak tensions which were high due to terror attacks on the Indian parliament, he advocated that the US take the side of Pakistan to keep the Musharraf government intact.
A good litmus test of any of these moderate Muslims would be to detect - which local jihad does he support, and where?
I think it was very noble of you to advocate supporting Anti-CAIR. That organization needs to keep CAIR busy so that they do not have the time or money to combat prominent personalities who have the kajunes to raise questions about Islam - be it the cartoons, the ports deal, terror, the Palestinian issue, et al.
Quietwatcher's son, welcome. It's just a wee bit awkward addressing you as "Quietwatcher's son", but I think we'll adjust.
Wideawake, I think you're courageous to bring the topic up with your muslim friend. Pushing it further was not a necessary first step - perhaps you've planted a seed of enquiry in his mind and he'll actually check what the koran says now.
It is hard to introduce any friends to the topic. I recently brought it up with an asian friend, and she seemed very taken aback that I'd suddenly become so intensely political on one topic. But after a while she admitted that a muslim friend of hers had told her he supported the 9/11 attacks! It almost seemed that she had just seen this as a character quirk or harmless opinion, until I pointed out the context of islamism.
quietwatcher's son
Before I agree or disagree with you, when you say Muslims, are you talking about those who accidentally happen to be born into it, or those who actively practice Islam, and apply it to their outlook on various aspects of life, such as rights of women, status of infidels, attitude towards apostates, et al?
If it is the former, I agree - a lot of Muslims are ignorant of their religion, and could be Muslims for identification purposes only. If it is the latter, I disagree: they have made this evil ideology called Islam the basis of what they believe in, and it is that basis which makes them evil.
Part of the reason for this ambiguity is that in this country, when one says Muslim, or Christian, or Jew, one is referring to a practicing Muslim, or Christian, or Jew. Athiests who may have been born to nominally Catholic or Lutheran families are identified as Athiests, not as Catholics or Lutherans. Therefore, when one says Muslim, the assumption here is a practicing Muslim. (Although as has been argued elsewhere on this site, even if one is a Muslim for identification purposes only, he or his descendents may suddenly become a fanatic at any time, and it is almost impossible to look for warning signs.)
Anyway, welcome to Jihadwatch.
Infidel Pride,
I'm just talking about people. I know a lot of Catholcis who go to my church but only a couple time a year. They've never read the Bible. They couldn't tell you anything about any scripture that I point out. They have no idea what the difference is between Genisis and Revelation.
So I'm talking about Muslims like that. They're Muslims because their parents are or because it's just how they were raised, but they're not like many of the crazies that we know are involved in Islam.
I think the problem is the religion and I wish we could find a way to get to the kids who are my age and who are being raised to believe in that "religion" so that we can try to find a way to show them everything that is wrong and bad and scary and criminal about what it REALLY teaches.
I think that's it's too late to convince some adults. You guys are mostly set in your ways. You're not going to convince a super-left wing liberal that there is anything good in a super-right wing conservative politician. Same in the reverse. Thta's why people like Pres. Bush and Sec. Rice can't see the truth. They're either to set in their ways or they are afraid of having to come out and say they were wrong all along (another wierd thing about grown ups). But if we can get to kids like me and teach them a thing or two, we might have a chance as my generation gets older.
I used to be pretty set in my ways. I was a big believer in everything Rupublican. Then my mom stepped in a litte. She's not a Republican or a Democrat. She sees things from both sides and picks her voting choices on the person and the issues not on the party. She told me that I can be whatever I want and that I can belive whatever I want. I'm allowed to have any opinion that I want, but I have to be able to back it up if I want to talk about it in her house. That means that I can say something like "the NSA phone bugging things is wrong" but then I have to have some reseacrh that makes my point. Usually she goes and finds research for the opposite side of what I believe. Then we sit down and read each others stuff. Most of the time I end up seeing new views that I never thought of and I usually change my mind. That hapened with the NSA phone bugging thing. Now I think it's a good idea.
But that's what we have to find a way to do with Islam and kids. Kids from all religions and all races and all counrties need to be educated on what Islam is and what it has done and what it's going to do. Kids are the ones we have to get to because we are the future and we're your best hope.
The "psychological pressure" is usually of their own making. They choose willingly to migrate to Western countries and to take advantage of the infinitely superior lifestyle and economic conditions on offer, then congregate in ghettoes, refuse to give an inch when it comes to accepting any part of the culture that has accepted them but whom they refuse to accept or make the slightest concessions to in their lifestyle. Those who feel the most "psychological pressure" amongst them are gay Muslims for example, whose lives are blighted by primitive attitudes, intolerance, hatred, exclusion and excoriation within their communities or the girls who are trying to get out of patriarchal families and arranged marriages, some of whom even end up murdered. Those are the type of Muslims who need our help and support. The rest of them can go to hell.
Ronin
I agree with what you wrote. There is no doubt of the Taqqiya, the false outrage and all the rest of the bag of tricks used by muslim spokesmen. My original post on ths issue was about the "sub-human" epithet. One has to be careful here, and if necessary to rebut and even go a bit further, as otherwise this site is likely to be tagged as a "Hate" site or even worse.
My own view for sometime now, is that our civilisation is unlikely to survive a continuous assualt on it, particularly when that assault is taking place from within, with much of the media and leading politicians making excuses for the aggressors. I would much prefer that people whose culture is in marked dissonance with our norms, should not live here. It is uncomfortable for us and probably uncomfortable for them and is likely to lead to civil war in the future - given the known predatory nature of islam. A separation is the most benign and cost effective solution. It is unlikely though that this ideal solution will transpire.
When I wrote that muslims must be under psychological pressure and required understanding, I do not mean that they be let off the hook. Far from it. The pressure has to be maintained, but that pressure continued by attack on the ideology of islam, and NOT by epithets against muslims as people.
The attack on islamic ideology, which afterall is the main target, can be done with precision and accuracy, while at the same time with kindness and understanding of muslims as individuals. (Alert: This approach obviously excludes those who hold guns or swords).
This approach has many advantages, such as guarding your own flanks, while at the same time making your points far more harder to rebut, in addition making muslims and non-muslims who may be reading your comments, more likely to give it thought and credence. That is as far as our writings in blogs such as this.
I would go further to increase the psychological pressure. I find it strange that in our societies now, a religion has been granted so much of the public square. That has to cease.
1. The electrically amplified calls of the mezzuen are an invasion of the public square, as well as an affront to other faiths.
2. Wearing clothes that signify the oppression of women is a symbol of acceptance of slavery as legitimate in the West. Totally unacceptable.
3. Teaching islam in public schools is not acceptable, as the texts violate several cherished values of the West. If tought, then it must be as a critique rather then the present obfuscatory method.
I wish to see far more pressure brought on the ideology of islam, and rituals that are incompatible with Western norms, while at the same time in our writings on blogs such as this, maintaining a charitable level of understanding for muslims as humans.
London girl
In August 2005, I wrote the following on GoV and on Roger Simon's site, and something similar on Fjordman's site.
___
In the first instance, we need to start putting real pressure on two issues, both of which are social and legal issues.
1. The enslavement of women in Islam.
It is damnably unfair that Muslim women have to bear the responsibility of “honour” in Muslim society, a deadly serious matter, but get no power that goes with such awesome responsibility. It is damnably unfair that a Muslim woman has no power to decide her fate. It is unjust that Muslim women have to bear the pains and penalties of FGM. Women are also regarded as chattels in the world of Islam – in effect slaves.
The public manifestation of our acceptance of institutionalised slavery in the West is the burqa. It is an acknowledgement, that we as a Western society have recognised the institutionalised slavery of women in Islam, as legitimate in the West. This cannot be accepted in a liberal and socially just society.
Our sense of justice and compassion for the cruel injustice heaped on Muslim women, is what concerns us as liberal compassionate humans. Once Muslim women are free, as it is their right to be in the West, then the after effects on Islam are of no concern to us. It is a private matter within Islam.
2. The sentence of death on Apostates of Islam.
Freedom of choice is the hallmark of a liberal and just society. Yet we countenance the fact that people who leave Islam, have to go about in daily fear of their lives. Hour by hour that fear stalks them, even here in the West.
How could we have allowed such a situation come to pass in the citadel of liberalism? How did we ignore the cries for help from the weak, the vulnerable and the isolated?
Such social issues are not the fault of Muslims. Muslims are the first and most oppressed victims of Islam. They are just as kind and nice people as any other. It is the doctrine of Islam that gives rise to social values that are so cruel and unjust on individual Muslims. My heart goes out to the weak, the trammelled and the vulnerable Apostates of Islam. They are truly the most marginalized and victimised individuals in the world. Let it not be said, that even here in the West, we allowed such injustice to continue.
___
I'm heartened to see now, that these issues have come to the fore. The pressure has to be maintained on the ideology of islam but with, as I've said, with charity and kindness for muslims, as this is the way our critique is more likely to be heard by the wider community. I'm conscious that this site is read by many who do not ever post here, and many muslims as well who again may not post here, but do read the comments.
I have posted on many blogs since 9/11, some of them quite innocent of the danger that the West is in. If I had gone in confrontational, then what I had to say would have been ignored or condemned and rejected outright. Many on the forum had no idea of the penalty for apostates, muslim homosexuals and muslim women who decided to exercise the freedom they have in the West. However, with charity and compassion for muslims, who I have always felt are the first and main victims of islam, the message as the above, was accepted.
PS: Did you used to post on LGF? The name rings a bell. I know you have posted on this site for a while now.
ovidius_naso posted: I for one am not going to waste any sorrow over poor Muslims' "difficult" plight. As I get older I am getting stingier with my emotions. I choose to give my compassion--and whatever help I can give--to the blacks in Darfur.
Not just the blacks of Darfur. I brought up the genocide of Sudanese Christians some 4 or more years ago on LGF, as well as what the Barnabus Fund has been doing in this regard, ie helping the persecuted Christians in muslim countries. The mass murders in Darfur is small compared to what happened to Sudanese Christians and Animists. Worse still, it was done over a long period, and yet none of the news was brought up in the MSM, BBC etc. It was ignored, hidden or both. The Darfur massacres OTH were brought to the attention of the public quite swiftly by comparison.
There are other persecutions of Christians going on in the muslim world. The chief one is in Indonesia - in the province of Aceh, Sulawesi and other islands in the chain - the Molluccas comes to mind. The Barnabus Fund has details. Then there is the severe persecution of Hindus and Christians in Bangladesh. Somalia and Niger (not Nigeria), are other very dangerous places for the few Christians left over there.
You posted; As I get older I am getting stingier with my emotions.
I can sympathise with that. I first got to know of the problem of islamic ideology in May-June 1967. It was in the approaches to the 67 war. I was young then, full of idealism of the sixties, and quite taken aback with the bloodthirsty invective coming from the Arab side. It seemed to me that this needed some investigation. It was then that I read the Koran. Well, that was that. I realised then that Israel was in a war where no honorouble peace could ever be attained by Israel - not as long as the ideology of islam held overall sway. I never thought at the time that this would ever become a problem for us in the West.
If you donate, do consider the Barnabus Fund. I have mentioned this several times, particularly after the Tsunami in Indonesia. Christians in muslim nations are the last when it comes to getting any help, even the one that is donated by the West. They are afraid, for even going to the aid centre to get Western aid, is fraught with humiliation and danger.
DP111, thanks for clarifying your comments, I had totally misunderstood your post. I share your concern about the site being dismissed as a hate site but muslims will claim it a hate site until it promotes everyone to embrace islam. Once it switches to promoting islam (never in a thousand years) it will be branded a hate site because it took so long.
Ronin
I'm glad we see eye to eye. I had several other things in mind that I did not want to write about as it would give the game away. I think you will have guessed the strategy that I'm hinting at.
Ronin
It is not just muslims that I was aiming but the many "innocent about islam" non-muslims who come to this site to get some idea about islam. I do not wish them to get a shock and leave.
As for muslims and their continuous claim to be the fastest growing religion - there was an article last year in the Arab News, a Saudi newspaper, that was concerned that some 6% of muslims leave islam every year. Thus the ummah is decreasing despite the stirling work by muslim women. If the Saudi paper is right, then I do not wish that those muslims who come to JW/DW to have justification in their own minds to leave islam, get the idea that we see muslims as sub-human. That will simply make them go back to islam, as it would appear better then the Christian world.