Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald discusses Turkey's demand that the EU adopt Islamic blasphemy laws:
Abdullah Gul, who works for Erdogan, both of whom have absurdly described Europe as being a "Christian club" -- even as they belong to the "Muslim club" of the O.I.C. -- is now trying to demand changes in the right of freedom of speech as understood within Europe. He and Erdogan are doing this despite the fact that Turkey has not yet been admitted to the E.U. One would think that at this point they would be trying to be on their best behavior, instead of issuing demands and veiled threats.The E. U. will not, and should not, permit Turkey’s admission. Too many, during the Cold War, were willing to believe that Turkey was permanently on the road to ever more secularism, ever more Kemalism. Too many thought that the Cult of Ataturk -- and not everyone recognized that it was merely a replacement for the only conceivable alternative, the Cult of Muhammad -- was itself permanent.
It was not to be. The beneficiaries of Kemalism may now be about one-quarter of the population. But they were never sufficiently grateful to him to continue his practice of pushing Islam to the side of Turkish life. They never realized, for example, that instead of forever pretending that the Armenian genocide did not take place, they should have worked to have the question forthrightly studied, and once studied recognized -- but recognized not as some fault inherent in "the Turks" but rather, as the result of Islamic teachings. Those teachings also explain the massacres of the Greeks in Smyrna, the anti-Greek violence in Istanbul in 1955 (in which 4,000 Infidel-owned businesses were destroyed), and the World-War-II era legislation, the Varlik Vergesi, that was in effect a kind of Jizyah imposed on non-Muslims (and on this, see the conclusions of a study by Faik Okte, who had been put in charge of collecting the tax).
The Turks, both Ottomans and Kemalists, have seen to an ever-diminishing population of non-Muslims in their midst. They have accomplished this through genocide, as with the Armenians; and through massacres, riots, forced conversions and exiles, as with the less numerous Greeks. Those Greeks now, in a population of 70 million, amount to just a few thousand. Now non-Muslims live in Turkey in a dangerously threatening environment, as is the case with the Jews there -- whose supposed benign treatment in the Ottoman Empire has been a staple of Turkish self-preening and self-justification, and has proven in the past to be useful with quite a number of people influential in Washington. One staple of Turkish self-aggrandizement has been the invocation of the refuge found, and given, within the Ottoman Empire to Jews expelled from Spain: "look at how we gave them refuge in Salonika when they were hounded out by Christians in Spain" is a statement one hears endlessly.But what one waits for, and does not hear, is mention of several other relevant facts. First, Jews may have been forced to leave Spain, but they were welcome elsewhere in Christian Europe, in Amsterdam, also part of Western Christendom. There their presence, and influence in Dutch society at its very best, can be observed visually in the paintings of Rembrandt (not that paintings should be studied as sociological artifacts), and in the fact of Spinoza -- and in the beginnings, in Holland, of the Enlightenment. Second, the Ottomans who settled Jews in Salonika were replacing one Jewish community -- which had been forcibly removed prior to this -- with another. Third, the Ottoman Muslims never regarded the Jews as a threat. They were too small, and too weak, and their talents as traders, interpreters, dragomans, or as court physicians were too much needed: a plaque alluding to the tradition of Jewish physicians for successive padishahin can be found in the Topkapi complex itself. And though Jews were allowed to live as Jews in the Ottoman lands, it was as Jews, or as non-Muslims, that they also suffered from the usual disabilities that dhimmis could expect. In the European territories of the Ottomans, this in places included being subject to the devshirme. For more on the unvarnished history of the treatment of Jews, see Joseph Hacker's essay (the best one) in the Braude and Lewis collection.
During the Cold War American governments saw Turkey as a provider of stalwart troops. And so they were. They were stalwart because they were fighting their historic enemy, Russia, in its embodiment of that time, the Soviet Union. Some, besotted by the ideology of progressivism, saw Turkey as permanently on the path to Westernization, the logical end result of the systematic constraints placed on Islam as a political and social force. John Foster Dulles was pleased to consider Islam as "a bulwark against Communism." Turks fought bravely and stolidly in Korea (they also left behind what has now become tens of thousands of Korean converts to Islam).
The Cold War is over. Those once-valuable listening posts, those bases, are not quite so necessary. And in any case, they are not quite so useful -- we were not allowed to use such a base for that famous fourth division that never arrived in Anbar Province from the north, because Turkey "surprised" the Pentagon by not permitting it. Not the last of the surprises. In the past Richard Perle and Douglas Feith have both been registered agents for Turkey. The Turkey they saw consisted largely of those wine-and-dining Turkish generals in Ankara. This was in the pre-Erdogan days. But now Kemalism has been shown to be transient, subject to constant wearing-down, and Islam turns out to be permanent.
Wherever a country has been Muslim, there will always be far more adherents of the primitive consolations of a Total Regulation of Life and Complete Explanation of the Universe that Islam can at least theoretically provide, and always far fewer prepared to jettison it completely, so that at least in one's own family-line there is much less danger of it reoccurring, a symptom of mental disarray, in one's children or grandchildren. Unless one takes steps to distance oneself permanently from it, it remains -- an emotional and quasi-intellectual temptation. Imagine the horror of educated Iranian exiles living in, say, Los Angeles, upon discovering that their shy and awkward son has turned forcefully to Islam, the very thing which they fled, but still insisted, out of some kind of misplaced piety, to identify with -- they still called themselves "Muslims" because they felt they had to call themselves something and, besides, they kept dreaming that Khomeini was an aberration, and that the benign Islam of their imaginings would some day come into being. In much the same way, those Turkish beneficiaries of secularism were insufficiently energetic and vigilant, while the party of Islam never let up, and is recovering ground, cunningly and surely.
The West cannot ignore all the telltale signs. It cannot ignore the power of Erdogan, or the attacks on this or that secular university rector. It cannot ignore the fact that the Turkish movie doing boffo box office depicts American soldiers in Iraq (the same ones who got rid of the Saddam Hussein regime, and then stayed only to rebuild schools and hospitals, and hand out candy and soccer balls, and to get a rudimentary democracy going, and -- absurdly -- to prevent civil war) as "worse than Nazis." It also shows a "Jewish doctor" who traffics in organs taken from prisoners put to death, according to the movie, in Abu Ghraib. And if that same Turkey has at the top of the best-seller lists Mein Kampf, and if it furthermore has all kinds of politicians making the most absurd anti-American, anti-Israel, and now, added to them, anti-European remarks, then one would be a fool to ignore all this.
Well, perhaps it is fitting after all. By what Joyce with his Anna Livia Plurabelle would call a commodius vicus, the attempt by Turks to undo the rights of the Enlightenment takes us back to the Amsterdam of Rembrandt and Spinoza. Spinoza, the man who helped give Enlightenment ideas their earliest formulation -- an Enlightenment which led, inexorably some might think, to the rights of the individuals, including the right of free speech. That right is only to be limited in this country when it is used to incite imminent and lawless violence. In Europe, for quite obvious and justifiable reasons, it is also off limits in a few places (e.g., Germany and Austria) to deny that the mass murder of Jews (the "Holocaust") took place. This is a reasonable limitation, and does not alter the central importance of freedom of speech to Western societies.
Yet now Abdullah Gul, representing and expressing a primitive and permanently menacing view of the universe -- menacing to free and skeptical inquiry -- dares, when one might think Turkey would we walking on eggs, to demand a change in the rights protected by European countries, and by the European Community.
The request is absurd. Even daring to make the request is disgusting, and telling.
This sounds like the excuse for which many of the noneuhuchoid within the EU have been waiting.
Rubbishing this totally should ensure that the Turks tell the EU to "stick it etc" and withdraw their application.
BUT it is symbolic of the new view we now have of the islamic face as they withdraw their veil of pretence to expose the truw soul of islam.
It also finishes off any illusions we had about Turkey being a secular state.
But in keeping with the rest of the depressing posts today, probably the EU will come running with their brown tongues out and their scrotumless backsides showing wagging tails.
Why don't they just all convert now and save us the agony>
Turkey is not to be trusted. The EU political elite are gradually coming to the realisation that to let Turkey join will be a disaster. However there is still a lot of persuading to do. As it is imperative that all Europeans are aware of what is at stake that message has to be continuously rammed home.
Am I alone in thinking that I would actually quite like the EU to be some kind of 'Christian Club'.
Is Turkey is a position to demand ANYTHING? From what I know they are being kept out of the EU because once admitted Turks can immigrate to any EU nation for work. Poland was recently admitted but with a few years delay for when Poles can move to any EU nation for work.
Europeans have seen French riots, Madrid and London bombings and Muslims going loony over Mo toons. This is what is killing Turkey's admission. The EUropeans are on a fast learning curve to fear Muhammadan mass immigration.
There is recent report from Denmark of Muslims being 5% but getting 40% of the welfare payments. Of Muslims going into welfare offices and demanding welfare in a threatening way. Welfare as Jizya payments, I think it was Mullah Krekar in Norway saying Muslims are entitled to welfare as a Jizya tax
One result of an Islamic revival in Turkey will be a lessening of their alliance with Israel and a decrease in their animosity with Syria.
War may have been averted in recent years because the Syrians had to worry about their border with Turkey.
History marches on with Russian hands at work, making the transition to a pan-Islamic alliance easier.
I can't see how Turkey can be admitted in the EU. They are already making demands and they aren't even members.
"One result of an Islamic revival in Turkey will be a lessening of their alliance with Israel and a decrease in their animosity with Syria.
-- from a posting above
"Will be"? That alliance is "lessening" by the Upper-East-Side minute, as long as Erdogan rules the roost, and Islam, Turkey's Comeback Kid, is allowed to flourish in the Turkish government, and the Turkish media, and the revivalist banlieues of Istanbul.
As for Syria, all sorts of things get in the way there. Which Syria do you mean -- the Syrian military caste of Alawites that runs things, or the Sunni Muslims (the "real" Muslims) who are just itching to overthrow the Alawite military caste, and attack every last man, woman, and child in those Alawite villages (you know, the ones where every house has a picture of Miriam for easy identification purposes)? Remember the old song that they like to sing on the Turkish-Syrian border: "You say 'Alevi' and I say 'Alawi.' (Hafez al-Assad liked to take the role of Fred Astaire in the duet, and naturally he led in the dance; I can't remember what Turk was willing to play the role of Ginger Rogers).
Syria and Turkey have what not only the Valley girls call "issues." One is the Turkish dams that not only do such bad things as flood Zeugma before David Packard can rescue enough of the stuff (then placed in the local museum, by the way), but also do good things -- from our point of view -- as deny water of the Euphrates to Syria, which on the civilizational scale of states is lower down than Turkey (though much higher, of cousre, than "our staunch ally" Saudi Arabia). Which Turks are we talking about? Turksih Turks, or Kurdish Turks, and if the latter, what happens if the Kurds in Syria are inspired to act up (actually, they are already inspired)? And what about those Alawite-versus-"real" Muslim problems in Syria (remember Hama, and before Hama, the 82 Alawite military cadets murdered at their graduate ceremony by "real" Muslims in Syria?) -- how will that play out among Alevis, and non-Alevi Muslims, in Turkey?
This is getting complicated. Wasn't it just a few months ago that someone decided to let the Bush Administration in on the little secret about this Sunni-Shi'a split being real, and deep, and going back more than just a few years? Whew. You can imagine how complicated it is for them to figure out what to do, or not do, when such mysterious words as "Alevi" or "Alawite" swim into their ken, can't you?
You're not alone, Sebastien. If the EU is to have any meaning at all, it must recognize the necessity of a minimum requirement for membership that a nation have at least a Christian based culture. Unfortunately, the radical secularists and Islamosphiles in control will never do this.
Perhaps we'll see a reaction against this Islamic aggression. Imagine if Russia, Belarus, Armenia, Georgia, Serbia, Greece, Pomania, Bulgaria and Cyprus were to for a Union of Orthodox Peoples. Or if Poland, Ireland, Slovakia, Hungary, France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, the Phillipines, East Timor, and Latin America were to form an Organization of the Catholic Conference as a counter to the OIC.
Of course we'll have to see most of the current regimes in all these countries replaced by sensible governments for such a dream to become reality.
Hugh, you're right that the so-called Turkish-Israel Alliance is now meaningless but Israel still refuses to recognize the reality of the Armenian genocide. This is shameful.
Well, the EU could always tell Turkey that the EU will adopt blasphemy laws when Turkey adopts laws banning denial of the Holocaust and the circulation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
And, Proslovoni, you are right. It is shameful that Israel has been silent on the matter of the Armenian genocide, but perhaps the motivation is less about any political alliance than it is about the small population of Jews still in Turkey that Israel might perfer to ransom out, assuming they want to leave for Israel.
One weekend here in Florence, late at night, I was returning home from a poker game with a roommate and we got hungry and began (what is normally in vain at such an hour in Florence) a search for food. We happened upon a Turkish kebab stand on one of Florence's better-known thoroughfares near the Duomo.
While waiting for our food to be made by the friendly Turk behind the counter, I couldn't help but notice the flat widescreen TV hanging from the wall, tuned into some Turkish MTV-like satellite channel. In the video was a female singer, dressed like a Western-woman in a sexy and attractive looking dress, lying on a sofa in a suggestive manner. It seemed like such an odd thing to be coming out of an Islamic country.
When leaving, I remarked to my friend, "I can never figure out if Turkey is a friend of the West, or another latent enemy. I know they have their history of Kemalist secularism and have been a military partner for some time, but their history as the center of the former Ottoman Empire combined with the fact that the country is full of Muslims who are quite capable of riling themselves up and hating America when neccessary still worries me. And of course, Turkey has had it's own spate of terrorist bombings lately." My friend didn't seem interested in the subject and passed it off, saying "They're definitely our enemies," hoping this would shut me up, but the thought lingered.
As I continue reading Donald and Fredrick Kagan's "While America Sleeps," I can't help but notice the similarities of Kemal's "nationalist" claims and attempted re-expansion of Turkey following World War I to traditional Islamic notions of boundaries and political control of a domain. As I read about the concomitant massacres that occured between the Greeks and Turks during that period of socio-political unrest, I couldn't help but to wonder why the Greeks and Turks seemed to hate each other so much, when all the Western combattants had been able to sign treaties and finish their fighting after the Great War. And then it struck me... the Greeks and other Eastern Europeans had been living as dhimmis in their own lands, constantly under threat and pressure from the Islamic Ottoman Empire since that last and fateful push by the Islamic hordes at the gates of Vienna in 1453.
Interesting how, the more things change, the more they stay the same. These aspects (religious conflict of Islam vs. non-Islam) of conflicts during WWI and later in the Balkans and Hellespont/Dardanelles as well as Anatolia/Asia Minor are rarely discussed in related studies and news reports, despite the leading governments of the time (the British in particular) making constant note in their intra-governmental reports of their worry of stirring the "Musselman/Moslem" in one part of the world, lest it stir them all.
I mean, during that whole Kosovo war, I never heard the Islamic aspirations of the Albanians in Kosovo vocalized in any news bulletins, it was always characterized as a simple nationalist struggle. Maybe we in the post-Modern, post-Christian West are only able to see the world in terms of national struggles because fighting over religious beliefs doesn't make sense to us anymore (unless you're a Democrat/leftist in America... then Fundamentalist Christians rival Islamists in terms of their threat to our way of life).
I guess this was a long-winded way of saying thanks for opening up my eyes on Turkey and giving me something to go off of here, Mr. Fitzgerald. I'm not so sure Turkey belongs in the EU either (I'm not really sure ANY European countries belong in the EU, and please don't get me started on their monetary system... what a disaster!). That doesn't seem to stop Turkey from exporting their countrymen en masse alla Germania, where they have begun the colonization process already! Two years ago, I wondered why my German penpal was from Turkey... now it all makes sense!
Ahhh, I meant 1529... 1453 was when Constantinople fell... why isn't there an edit button on this site?
not 11 September 1683?
oh, Constantinople. sorry.
Provoslavni good post. A union of orthodox or Catholic nations would be good. An orthodox union would be easier as the countries mentioned have a more common history. But the country with the power in that group Russia is a bit wishy washy on Islam lately. I do agree Israel should recognize the Armenian holocaust. In fact there is a holocaust denial law in Israel. Simon Peres should be indicted for denying its existence.
Wow I'm speechless excelleny article Robert. You hit the nail on the head, I only hope that Europe wakes up at some point and just throws Turkey's application out for good.
I'm still amazed though that Greece plays this game of friendship with Turkey. I know they are trying to make deals from the point of view of a civilized country trying to make peace with a neighbour. But they should know better than anyone that the monster next door is never going to be civilized; and they're better off keeping Turkey at arms length, than ever making deals with a country that will never honour anything she signs.
Niv
Slightly OT
Here is some anti-dhimmitude and free speech in support of the danes from of all places San Francisco.
Glad to see that some people in San Franfreako still have some spine and gray matter.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1595217/posts
Fatwa this!!!
I love it.
Re the union of Orthodox and Catholic countries:
Catholic countries are simply not very religious with the exception of perhaps Poland. For example, the Czech republic has about 45% non-believers. Many of the believers are merely cultural Catholics. The same is true in much of Catholic Europe.
The notion of a union of Catholic nations seems very distant, and unworkable.
Re the Orthodox nations' union:
First, Russia is the largest Orthodox country, but it is not very strong in its religious beliefs. Moreover, the Russian church has lost nearly all moral authority due to the legacy of communism and its failure to adequately criticize the regime. Another factor is Russia's inability to exert sufficient influence over other Orthodox countries since they are, in nearly every country, with perhaps the exception of Armenia, utterly despised. Ok there is another exception, Belarus, but I think it is safe to say Russia will not be a leader since it is questionable whether Belarus is even a state (or a vassal state of Russia).
Greece is far too weak and too small to even attempt to assume Russia's role.
The next issue is that of Orthodox cohesion. Some Orthodox countries are much more pro-Catholic than most here realize, example: Romania. I think the John-Paul was loved in Romania nearly as much as he was in Poland. It is no accident that the Pope's first visit to an Orthodox country was in Romania. Such a visit is still unthinkable in Russia. He was welcomed as a hero f the highest order. At the time of his visit, many Romanian newspapers have gently raised the issue of Church reunification. But church reunification is hardly a workable goal or even a necessary one in our secular age. Why does unification or a union need to be made at all? The argument of unification presupposes that Islam cannot be combated except through religious zealotry. I disagree. There are no official religions in the EU.
None of you have pinpointed why we must be even begin a crusade and not simply halt destructive immigration policies in Europe. For modern defense needs, the only workable union is NATO and to a far lesser extent, the EU.
A monumental shift in Southeastern Europe is Coming. You all seem to forget that two more Orthodox countries joined NATO in 2003, and will join the EU soon. Having four Orthodox countries (Greece, Romania and Bulgaria and tiny Cyprus) inside of the EU should not be underestimated in importance. It will cause a giant shift in EU thinking. Turkeys knows this and fears it. While Romania and Bulgaria (as was once Greece) are basket cases, and have legacies as Dhimma (especially Bulgaria, Romania had far more indendance from the Sultans), their presence in the union also ties the EU to the area and provide a bulwark against Turkey. This coupled with Bulgaria, Greece and Cyrpus in the EU places the EU firmly up against Turkey, and will cause Turkey discomfort. Turks will have to stay vigilant and prove they are truly secular. They are not showing it as it is now.
Last, since the EU cannot seem to create a serious military force, it is destined to be led around by NATO (the US). That brings us back to Pax Americana.
By the way, having Serbia in the EU would be a very big slap in the face to the neo-Ottomans. Serbia’s and Macedonia’s admission would do a great deal to stabilize the Balkans. With respect to Albania, I am not sure.
Forgive the typos, I had no time to edit.
Kafir Nonbeliever,
Your points are well-taken. Europe, East and West, has been subject to a process of de-Christianization and forced secularization since the French Revolution. Some of us would even say since the Reformation and Enlightenment.
But all is not hopeless. Often adversity is a strong catalyst for returning to one's roots. It was the Nazi holocaust that moved Zionism from the socialist fringe to the mainstream of Jewish thought. Likewise, the threat of Muslim domination may also be the catalyst for the re-awakening of Christian Europe.
Agree with Provoslavni, with all the murder and mayhem unleashed by Islam, many Europeans must be thinking...Christianity ain't so bad and all religions are NOT the same ! All is not lost, not yet anyway.
French politicans not that many months ago stated they hoped to "silence the Americans."
It would appear that the French are falling into the hole they were hoping to dig for the Americans. Remember that old adage "Be careful what you wish for..."
Everything you say about the barbarian Ottomans and fascist Kemalists is true, although if you really wanted to demonstrate how these twin evils are combining in modern Turkey it would be a good idea to mention the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974.
The operation - appropriately codenamed 'Attila' – was a frenzy of Turkish religious and nationalist hatred and was characterised by massacre, rape and looting.
200,000 Greek Christians were forced to leave their homes as the Turks carved out a 'Turks only' zone in the north of the island. Having deported the Greek Cypriots in the north, the Turks then set about destroying the Greeks' 3,500 year old culture, targeting, in particular, churches, monasteries and cemeteries. Churches and monasteries were desecrated, destroyed, turned into mosques, hotels, casinos or stables, while cemeteries were ransacked, with Turks robbing graves searching for valuables or simply vandalising monuments – Christian symbols on graves being an affront to the tolerant Muslims.
It's worth mentioning the sickening barbarism of the Turks in Cyprus for two reasons:
1. It demonstrates how unreformed and unrepentant Turks and Muslims are in their hatred for non-Turks and non-Muslims and what form this hatred takes when given the chance to be vented.
2. How craven the US and the Europeans are in defending Western civilisation when it comes to Turkey.
Fear of Turkey turning into an Islamic state proper, like Iran, means that the US and EU have turned their backs on the Greek Cypriots, who continue to fight for their restitution of their lands, pandering instead to the Turks who have learned the dangerous lesson that the West is weak at the edges and is reluctant to defend its more vulnerable members.
Paradoxically, the US and the Europeans are trying to prove how they are not Islamophobe by cultivating friendship with the Turks, promulgating the preposterous view that Turkey is the paradigmatic Muslim democracy, when in fact, in Cyprus and, as you say, with regards Armenians, Greeks and Jews in Turkey itself, Turkey shows its true, perennial anti-Western, anti-human, face.
Someone mentioned upthread that the political elite are realising it would be a mistake to let Turkey in. On the contrary, they are planning how to overturn the democratic referendums which took place in France and Holland recently which were a forwarning of how Turkey's proposed entry would be received by the enlightened voters and scheming how to facilitate the entry of 80 million Muslims into Europe - as if we needed any more. This is all part and parcel of some grand scheme to "democratise" and "westernise" the Muslim world. This will never happen. If anything, we should be cutting ties as much as possible like the Israelis who are the only people who really understand the true nature of the Mohammedan death cult. Israel is light years ahead of any of our current misguided leaders.
Pravoslavni,
about Israeli recognition of the Armenian genocide. The Hebrew University here in Jerusalem has a program of Armenian studies initiated by Prof. Michael Stone. The Armenian Studies Program has an Armenian Genocide commemoration every year, usually in April. I was at one or two of these commemorations which were held at the HU faculty club [Beyt Belgia] on the Giv`at Ram campus of the university. A few years ago, Prof. Israel Charney spoke at the commemoration and introduced his Encyclopedia of Genocide which does deal with the Armenian genocide. Charney heads what he calls the Institute for the Study of Genocide, or some such title. Many members of the local Armenian community attend these commemorations and other events sponsored by the Studies Program. Some of the leading local Armenian prelates have attended as well. Hence, whatever the foreign ministry may say, the university community has officially recognized the Armenian Genocide.
"If anything, we should be cutting ties as much as possible like the Israelis who are the only people who really understand the true nature of the Mohammedan death cult. Israel is light years ahead of any of our current misguided leaders."\
-- from a posting above
Israeli leaders, and the Israeli public, have yet to identify, much less express publicly, the nature of the Arab (and Muslim) opposition to their existence. They are not "light years" ahead of anyone.
In fact, Israel's continued failure to recognize the Lesser Jihad against it, the worthlessness of treaties between Infidels and Muslims, and the permanent duty of Jihad which can only be put off when the doctrie of "Darura" or necessity legitimizes such postponement, not only endangers Israel. But by yielding constantly, and failing always to explain its legal, moral, and historic rights, Israel does itself damage, and by its own confused appeasement (an appeasement which takes place despite all sorts of seeingly tough-minded measures which are nothing of the sort) it contributes, and has contributed, to Western inability to understand the nture of the menace.
This can be pointed out without affixing blame. Israel has been fighting for its life during its entire existence, and has had to resettle a large and constant stream of refugees, some in states of absolute wretchedness, material poverty and emotional distress, and has done so more successfully than any other country in the world. It has at the same time had to fight off a much larger and relentless enemy, endowed through an accident of geology with gigantic sums of money used to buy arms and of course influence throughout the world, and which has cleverly focused attention not on the nearly 300 million Arab Muslims, but rather on the local Arabs, renamed the "Palestinians." There hasn't been time for many of them to comprehend the relevance of Islam.
Individual scholars of Islam, such as Moshe Sharon, Mordechai Nissan, Raphael Israeli, and some others have understood. It hasn't helped matters that until recently, Bat Ye'or herself was not given her due. Now her work is read, and "Eurabia" comprehended (Bernard Lewis's role in delayed recognition of the signficance of her work within Israeli academic circles is unclear).
Eliyahu, there is no question that the majority of informed Israelis recognize the historical fact of the Armenian genocide. The problem is the official position of the Israeli governments (both Labor and Likud) has been one of cozying up to the Turks including this immoral form of holocaust denial. We must not forget that Hitler justified his genocide by saying "who remembers the Armenians".
Hugh, I would add to the list of Israeli scholars that you mentioned, David Bukay of Haifa Univ., Yehoshu`a Porat [who used to be identified as a sympathizer of the PLO], Aharon Amir, and others. In general these scholars do not get the media exposure or public recognition that they deserve, although Rafi Israeli appeared on one of the election commercials for the Likud [Netanyahu]. You have to take into account the long-standing influence here [in the academic world and certain political institutions] of Communists and other breeds of Marxist-Leninist-Stalinists. Today, they may use different names but the old Stalinist thinking still governs their minds. Added to this is the influence of big money coming in from Europe [the EU and EU member states and other bodies, such as trade unions, churches, etc] and from American foundations, which encourages and buys journalists, polticians, "peace activists" and "human rights" activists who talk the pro-Arab, pro-Islamic line. The thinking espoused by those bought --who may not necessarily understand their own role-- is likely to echo views such as those of Rosalind Hollis of the Royal Institute of International Affairs who was here pressuring Israeli officials to take a pro-Hamas line. So these domestic and foreign influences are obstacles to people here understanding the reality. Of course, many of those who came from Arab countries [or Iran] have a deeply ingrained distrust of Arabs, and other Muslims, and that attitude is shared by many people whose families were in Israel during the British mandate period and grew up with Arabs. But the politicians are influenced by "leftists" in academia --often influenced in turn by the grants that they get to study at Georgetown or Notre Dame [the Kroc center] or Oxford or who knows where. Nevertheless, the academic world here is far from monolithic. Now, to show how the Communists work here, consider the case of Dr David Bukay. He is a political scientist who teaches Arab political culture [whatever his courses are called]. He became so popular that mature people, not enrolled in the university, came to audit his courses. A little more than a year ago, an Arab Communist student sat in on his class and disrupted it with interruptions, outcries, etc. This student then went to the pro-PLO, pro-State Dept daily HaAretz to complain about Bukay as an anti-Arab racist. This affair went on for months and maybe is still going on, with complaints to the Univ administration, etc. The charges against Bukay were put on the Internet and thereby made their way around the world. What the upshot of the affair is I don't know, but you can see how these tactics by Arabs and Communists can prevent informed scholarly discussion of the issues that are important in re jihad, Arab nationalism, Islam, etc.
Bukay's books on Islamic Political Culture and on al-Qa`ida [Total Terrorism] are worth reading and available from the Ariel Center in Sha`ary Tiqvah, Israel.
Kafir Nonbeliever: the Czech Republic, as I already pointed out elsewhere, is a case apart. Far from being Catholic, the Czech nation was born in the fires of Hussitism and Taborism and inherited down the centuries an absolute loathing of the Church of Rome. Any Czech who claims to be Catholic is either disguising his real views or does not care. In the Czech Republic, as in France, the massive atheist and anti-clerical presence is the long-term heir of religious rebellion - Hussitism and Moravianism in Bohemia, Huguenotry and Jansenism in France - which forgot its religious reasons without forgetting its revolt against Rome. Not all Catholic countries have forgotten their Catholicism: the Church has just scored an overwhelming victory in Italy on the matter of the referendums on artificial fecundation, and has shown that it is impossible to have a majority or to govern in Italy against the Church, as long as majority rule obtains. The accident of the Zapatero government notwithstanding (everyone knows that they would never have won that election if the fucken stupid Populars had not rushed to blame ETA for the Muslim bombs), I think the same may well turn out to be true in Spain; pro-family demonstrations there have managed to bring from one to two million people to the streets. And at any rate, I have it on good authority that the pressure of Islam is leading people to rediscover their Christian heritage just to show that they are something else from Muslims.
Excellent analysis, Paolo, that's why I listed Slovakia but not the Czech Republic. The state of Czech culture has declined exponentially from the people who produced good King Wenceslaus and dovotion to the Infant of Prague. I hate to sound harsh but sometimes it seems that the Czech's number one export is prostitutes and these are on a different level than the thousands of other Eastern European girls currently being sold as slaves by Albanian and Chechen run Muslim gangs.
What I meant is that Israel is building a wall - and Europe should probably build one too instead of bridges. The Mohammedan death cult is currently fixated on the West but in reality the various tribes and partisan groups of the death cult hate each other to the point of wanting to kill each other. It would be far better if they focussed on each other rather than the West and Israel. Perhaps they would be forced eventually into some kind of civilised arrangement and thus be dragged into the 21st century as Europe has managed to do after many years of warfare.
Israel is building a wall close to the June 3, 1967 armistice lines. Why? Why not take all of Judea and Samaria, as Jesus called that area, or "the West Bank," as some Arabs in Jordan decided to rename it in 1948? They are relinquishing land to which they have a considerable legal, moral, and historic title, and certainly a title far superior to that of any Arab claimant, when they build that wall there. They are setting a terrible example for Europe, by suggesting that all that Infidels can do is to retreat, retreat, retreat, in the face of demographic problems. Do they not think that the problem will start all over again, with the local Arabs, those still called "Israeli Arabs" rather than part of the "Palestinian people"?
Furthermore, the area they are essentially yielding, by building that wall there, or giving strong indications of yielding (and Olmert, being completely ignorant of Islam, and a fool to boot, bodes ill) that area, will lose control of their aquifers, necessary for Israel's survival.
If Israel can't hold on to that area, at least, having given up all of the Sinai (which only became part of Egypt in 1922, remember), and then Gaza, it will tell the people of France and England and Belgium that you will have to back away from those Muslim-occupied areas of your own countries, leave them alone, seal them off, lest they "demographically" overwhelm you.
What should Israel have done? Not build that wall. Or at least not there. Israel is under no obligation to make life as easy as possible for those who would destroy it. It has no obligation either to pay a Jizyah or permit others to pay a Jizyah to those people. It has no obligation to provide employment for people on land that is without natural resources and where they live on ly as the shock troops, entitled to demand, and receive, apparently, foreign aid from timid Infidels. It's a nonsensical policy. Nonsensical for Israel itself, and a terrible model for the countries of Western Europe, that need to be given a different idea as to how to handle their own similar, growing, even looming problems.
Israel has been forced to capitulate under terrible pressure from western countries. For such a small country to withstand such universal hatred and condemnation orchestrated from powerful media bodies such as the BBC is still admirable even if you think their policies are wrong. They still have far more idea of the kind of impacable and ruthless enemy they are dealing with than the clueless western leaders. I was trying to give a history lesson to a friend last night who is not exactly dumb. It's quite remarkable how effective the anti Israel brainwashing and propaganda has been. She was completely unaware of the colonisation and constant warfare waged by Islam on the west and the treatment meted out to other religions.
"The state of Czech culture has declined exponentially from the people who produced good King Wenceslaus and dovotion to the Infant of Prague."
-above
I disagree. All this talk about a nation's worth (or lack thereof) in relation to its level of religiosity, as if a higher level indicated a nation were "better", is bunk. The Czech Republic, when compared to say, Romania (or Poland), is considerably ahead intellectually (per capita). This is not to say Czechs are smarter than the others, but were generally more exposed to new ideas over the centuries. Czechs are also far less agrarian too, and are located in the center of Europe. Those are the reasons why they are less religious, not the theories offered here.
Moreover, I await an answer as to why a "Christian revival" is necessary to change immigration policies in Europe.
Kafir Nonbeliever,
"Why a "Christian revival" is necessary to change immigration policies in Europe" is because this is the foundation of European culture and identity. Forget about religiosity, this is a cultural assault as well as political. Islam seeks to undermine every aspect of European civilization. Only a full self-confidence in what it is to be a European will save these societies from being overwhelmed. Even non-believers can affirm their Christian culture and roots as a bulwark against Islamic conquest.
I am not advocating a requirement that every European become devout. That would be absurd and destructive. I am advocating that Europe stop apologizing for its civilization and affirm that immigrants into Europe must accept European culture and worldview which is based on Judeo-Christian principles.
By the way, I also support Hindu and Buddhist revivalism in traditionally Hindu and Buddhist cultures (India and Southeast Asia) as a bulwark against Islamic world conquest. History shows that almost all other religions (and even most secularists) can co-exist peacefully, but the nature of Islam is aggression.
IF EUROPEAN UNION ADMITTS TURKEY INSIDE,THAT IS THE BEGINING OF THE COLAPSE OF A CHRISTIAN MAJORITY EUROPE.TURKEY WILL HAVE MOST OF THE VOTING POWER,BASED ON ITS POPULATION,AND IT WILL START DICTATING ITS OWN TERMS TO WHOLE EUROPE.
EUROPE,WHICH WAS SAVED BY THE CRUSADERS IN THE PAST FROM THE HOSTILE MOUSLIM AUTOMAN EMPIRE WILL BE EASILY BECOME A MUSLIM EMPIRE,AS ALL THE MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS WILL BE PUMPED INSIDE THE EU THROUGH TURKEY.
Hugh,
One of the biggest problem with this wall is that it puts Bethlehem, Tulkarem, etc. on the Muslim side thus contributing to the destruction of indeginous Christianity.
The only just solution is to recognize as Palestinians only those with long historical, religious, and cultural roots in Judea and Samaria, i.e Christians, Jews, and Samaritans. All others should be deported across the Jordan River.
Pravo,
the more territory that the wall encompasses the more that the anti-wall fanatics scream and shout. So anything that Israel does, in either direction, comes in for international criticism. I personally say, the hell with int'l criticism, which is hypocritical by definition. But the Supreme Court tries to follow the international politically correct line. And they have mandated changes in the wall's route. Of course, the method of selecting and appointing judges has to be changed [now the Supreme Court co-opts its own members --Shocking, n'est-ce pas?]. But that's another matter.
By the way, Rabbi Mordecai Eliyahu [former chief rabbi] said that we should rend our garments and mourn, when Shimon Peres gave up Bethlehem to arafat.
Provoslavni,
You indicated you were in favor of heightened religiousity all over. In that case, then clearly you will support the un-publicized efforts of some in Romania (and undoutedly elsewhere - especially Finland) to reject the Abrahamic (violent, Asian and foreign invading religions) in all parts of Central Europe. The Romanian organization that seeks to exalt pre-Christian Dacia can be found here:
http://www.gebeleizis.org/
Visit the photogallery link. I also highly recommend clicking the section on “Arta religioasa”.
Here are some link to our very sacred sites in Sarmizegetusa, the ancient capital of Dacia:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.geocities.com/dacgerula/files/sarmizegetusa_panorama.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.geocities.com/dacgerula/poze.html&h=640&w=800&sz=62&tbnid=qkLRwgVr_lODuM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=142&hl=en&start=9&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSarmizegetusa%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ziduldacic.go.ro/arhitectura/arhitectura/sanctuar/sanctuar_6.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ziduldacic.go.ro/arhitectura/arhitectura/sanctuar.htm&h=768&w=1024&sz=163&tbnid=ABmOnSdSh5stTM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=150&hl=en&start=26&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSarmizegetusa%26start%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.zamolxis.ro/imagini/buldozere/image009.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.zamolxis.ro/modules.php%3Fname%3DContent%26pa%3Dshowpage%26pid%3D5&h=225&w=300&sz=18&tbnid=hsKJj6afZ4_NXM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=111&hl=en&start=80&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSarmizegetusa%26start%3D60%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
I only posted the religious parts of life in the capital, since we are talking about religion. Notice how similar they are to Stonehendge. The difference is the scale of the construction. There is hope in Europe. There is hope to escape these foreign imported religions, like Islam.
Since Carpo-Danubian peoples played a large part in forming the culture of Central Europe especially the incoming Germanic and Uggric peoples to the north (and later the Slav), and since you appear to be from the same region given you name, won't you consider worshiping our great Dacian God Zalmoxis (Salmoxlis aka Saitnoxis). Lithuanians and Latvians (and perhaps others) did, why can't you?
Perhaps you would be more interested in worshipping our most powerful and glorious God of Thunder, Gebeleizis, or his beatiful female companion.
Since there is still a (non publicized) Dacian peasant belief in strigoi (owl-witch spirits)in the countryside, that were only reinforced by the Romans (later Christians), I don't see why pre-Christian beliefs would not provide the bulwark against Islam that you so desire. Our "real" faiths would provide charms and arms against Islam, wouldn't they?
So you see, I think I found the bulwark we so need, our pre-conversion roots. Admittedly this is all a bit silly, but not as silly as other theories I have seen thrown about here from time to time. Hey, they aint golden cows. Enjoy.
Kafir Nonbeliever,
I have no problem with pagans or any other traditional religion. We can co-exist in peace. My only problem with Euro-paganism is that it often has a nazi element which is scary.
Again, I advocate an alliance of all peace-loving religions (and non-religions) to defeat the Islamist threat. We can debate our differences after we've secured our freedom to do debate.
Eliyahu,
As usual your analysis of the problem is right on target. The biggest problem to an effective policy is from Israelis. Maybe we should use the term Islamo-Jews to go along with Islamo-christians, although I suspect that many of them are as serious about their "Judaism" as Hanan Ashrawi is about her "Christianity" i.e. not at all.
Although we have to admit, it is a strange re-alignment when Christian Palestinian nationalists now advocate that the Israeli border should be the Jordan River, but that is the only way that Jews and Christians will have any security.
"My only problem with Euro-paganism is that it often has a nazi element which is scary."
-Above
Exactly. After I read more about the organization I posted, I found out it is tied to Aryan movements. I do not support any of it except the cultural/historical appreciation one can gain from it, nothing else.
i think its riduculous that turkey is allowed to have negociations to enter EU after what they did to Cyprus in 1974 Turkey should have sanctions on it not be talknig about joining the EU and if turkey is calling the EU a christian club then why they want to join why dont they join the arab league
Eliyahu, On your comment:
about Israeli recognition of the Armenian genocide. The Hebrew University here in Jerusalem has a program of Armenian studies initiated by Prof. Michael Stone. The Armenian Studies Program has an Armenian Genocide commemoration every year, usually in April. I was at one or two of these commemorations which were held at the HU faculty club [Beyt Belgia] on the Giv`at Ram campus of the university. A few years ago, Prof. Israel Charney spoke at the commemoration and introduced his Encyclopedia of Genocide which does deal with the Armenian genocide.
You are right in most of your commetnary, but the fact remains that in the US the main Jewish organizations carried water for Ankara and were directed by Jerusalem to engage in blocking recognition of the Armenian Genocide. There was a famous and really embarrassing issue at the Wiesenthal Center in Calfornia over this.
There were a number of articles in the JPost on this and of course there is the incredible case of Wiesel being pressured by the Israeli government to withdraw from an Armenian genocide confrence. (Wiesel to his credit realized just how tawdry this was getting and joined with the main genocide scholars to sign a letter affirming the Armenian genocide)
here is what Yehuda Bauer, the most respected Holocaust expert in Israel had to say about the Peres govenrment's campaing of denial: “Frankly, I’m pretty disgusted. I think that my government preferred economic and political relations with Turkey to the truth. I can understand why they did it, but I don’t agree with it.”
Frank,
for your information, Shim`on Peres is one of most despised politicians in Israel. His conduct on the Armenian genocide matter, as you describe, it, fits his generally despised character. But the Western govts like Peres. Go complain to the USA and the other Western govts about Peres.