"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too. We must set an example...He must be hanged"

RE:....we will not tolerate anything but full juridical freedom of conscience, and that if that means the Afghan Constitution must be revised to delete the Sharia provision,

With our full might, we should put unbearable
pressure on Karzi, this can not stand if the principle of democracy is what is being fought for. This is a true test of OUR moral resolve as most of the postees here pretty much agree that Islam needs to be dealt with.

"Berlin wall aspect"--Robert

Absolutely. The clerics know people will leave Islam if given a choice. If the harsh apostacy and blasphemy/criticism laws were to be removed, Islam would be finished, no more, done. The threat of harsh penalties is the only thing holding Islam together.

But we are not going to waste our arms and blood to prop up a state that institutionalizes the oppression of religious minorities and extinguishes the freedom of conscience.

This is the writing on the wall and all should heed its warning...

What mooslems do not understand is that the forces installed by the Coalitions are protecting them from the masses of free people who would handle this situation with stiffer resolution. Our Governments are holding back the will of the people that would end this Ideology with a quickness. We would not tolerate this anymore and we would not use kid gloves either.

When the good people have had enough and we are forced to override the powers that be it can mean only one thing to that religion of peace and it will not be good for any mooslem then.

We know what it's going to take but we idly wait while the politics are playing out. At some point this will stall and the due's will be payed and it will be costly.

where is the UN on this issue! where is Koffi, and the great liberal from Canada louise arbour? where are all these liberals who want to liberate people.. oh yeah their favourite saying,, not all people want to live like us.. that is freedom and democracy.! l am so sick and tired of these pathetic UN types, who go on and try to tell the west, how read nead to gid rid of racisim,, blah blah.. yeah will slavery, honour killings, killings of apopsates are thriving in muslim countries.. but geesh we dont want to look like we are picking on those poor muslims... well next time a stupid liberal or democrat like Kerry wants to go the UN route, you have to make them answer why?

Right! Well if that's the case then all of the military installations from the US and Canada should have an immediate withdrawal of troops out of there now.

Why should they kill themselves for a country which disregards life?

I would not help a country which supported Satanism and yet, what is the difference? They are an evil people who only live to shed more and more blood on the altars of their god and their prophet. They are doing the bidding of the evil one.

I know that many in Canada and the US are not of a Christian background, but because of the North American background coming from a Christian "culture", does it make any sense to send them into a country to help their government so that they can kill Christians? It would have been like the Jewish people helping the Romans to propogate themselves so that they could turn around and kill more of their people. We will just be killing ourselves.

I say that all of these countries should be left to their own devices and let them destroy themselves. They follow this religion from hell with a devil for a prophet.

How come so many are opposed to cults like Baghwan and Jim Jones, yet we tolerate these people and their religion? It's time to get tough and say 'No More!'.

By the way, Robert, I finally got a copy of your book. Have you ever thought of putting together a fact sheet or a small booklet which could easily be left in churches or passed around with enough information to wet the appetite so that people will read your book and learn the truth and then stand against this tide of evil itself?

How can we find ways of promoting your book and ideas? I don't want to sit by. We need to be proactive and not reactive, especially in Europe. I know we need to in Ireland before it's too late.

PJ

The existence of some memes simply cannot be tolerated anywhere on the planet, cannibalism for example. Another would be crucifixion (still practiced in Yemen) and of course, genocide. This intolerance must transcend principles of personal liberty, familial, tribal or national sovereignty. Complain all we might about the UN train wreck, the UN does at least provide a forum for airing and promulgating global principles to which all peoples of all nations of all creeds can be put on notice that they will be held to account. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights comes to mind. Shari'a is fundamentally incompatible to that declaration and if there ever was a meme that needed to be purged from the face of the planet, it is hard to imagine a more suitable candidate.

Muslims who deny freedom to others do not deserve any freedom for themselves. And they certainly do not deserve any respect.

America is the only thing standing in the way of the Taliban taking back over. The Afghan people themselves know this and want us there. I heard this yesterday from all places would you believe a Liberal jouralist interviewed on NPR. Well, this being the case maybe a little lobbying by the state department calling for Impeachment of the judge in question and removal of all shariac support in the Afghan constitution is in order. The U.S should make clear that we will no longer prop up governments that don't espouse western secular values. This of course would drive the rest of the world Apesh!t as we would no longer be paying Jizyah tax to among others Hamas. Pretty simple, remove the judge and all sharia law from their constitution. The Afghan people would go for it in a heartbeat faced with the alternative. The mullahs would be judicially defanged and that would be a GOOD thing IMHO.

/applaud Robert Spencer

Exactly correct.

If there is any hope for these Islamic nations to come into the 20th Century as far as recognizing freedoms is concerned the West must make a stand in the case of Abdul Rahman.

And the churches in the West are so grovelling to Islam. When will we wake up.

" if that means the Afghan Constitution must be revised to delete the Sharia provision, so be it. But we are not going to waste our arms and blood to prop up a state that institutionalizes the oppression of religious minorities and extinguishes the freedom of conscience."

Like others have stated, this MUST be the message pounded into the white houses' head. I supported going to war and "cleaning up" these cess pools, but it looks like we are only creating MORE OF THE SAME. If that's the case, mission FAILED, lets get out of there.

This IS. Bush's fault. He needs to understand Islam is NOT a religion of peace. It's is, and always has been a cult of death.

Shia law does NOT have to be part of the Afghhan constitution. Sharia Law is not dictated in the Koran. It's an afterthought created by Islamic fundamentalists 800 years after Muhammad's (may he burn in hell) not soon enough death.

While Islam may be the official "religion" (cult) of Afghanistan, which it WASN'T, religion itself is a personal choice, and should not be forced upon anyone by law. It is a matter of personal choice, and it is a personal choice whether to adhere to it's tenents, and even then, those choices cannot disrupt the lives and well being of others who choose differently.

If Bush is unwilling to conquer, then get out and let someone else who understands what conquer means fix the problems of that part of the world. It isn't a job for the faint hearted and weak.
Bush has often said it is our duty to establish freedom and human rights to the oppressed. I suggest Mr. Bush, That you back up your words with action. Unless you are willing to do what needs to be done, quit wasteiing the nation's treasure and the blood of it's sons on this task which you obviously do not have the resolve to complete.

Nasri sez: If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too. We must set an example...He must be hanged"

Once more with feeling...Islam is surrounded by barbed wire...not to keep others out, but to keep muslims in...Nasri confirms this...there is a hadith where someone converts rather than getting killed, but the warrior killed him anyway. When Mohammad asked him why he did that, he replied that he thought the victim was faking it to save himself. So an example was set way back then, only it was probably a beheading rather than a hanging...whats new?...The more things change, the more they stay the same, especially with Islam...

I can't remember who provided the link to all of the state representatives in the House and Congress, but he or she has my gratitude.

After writing to my representatives, about Abdul Rahman I fired off an email to everyone I know, requesting them to do the same.

I hope we can all create a grassroots movement that will spur Mr. Bush to take some kind of action, or even just some kind of stand. To date, I find the words he has said about the subject to be deplorably weak!

I guess I was naive in my admiration of his post 9/11 speeches. (Especially the one made from atop the firetruck at Ground Zero...) So much for ignorant bliss!

If the matter weren't so very serious, on so many levels, the title of this article would be funny. It reminds me of a limerick:

An epicure dining in Crue, (sp?)
Once found a large mouse in his stew.
Said the waiter: don't shout
and wave it about,
Or the rest will be wanting one, too!

In other words: "Living as a Christian in the West is so much better and superior than living as a Muslim under Sharia, that most thinking Muslims would abandon Islam if they only had a chance." Thank you, Mr. Nasri, for clarfying this point.

An organization that forbids its members from leaving by punishment of death is not a religon, it is organized crime. That is how the mafia operates.

I disagree with the notion that we must keep out of Afghanistan. Rather, we need to pull away from the idiotic notion of "respecting the religous wishes" of these insane people, and arm our soldiers with Bibles (written in Arabic) to combat the REAL ENEMY.

This matter should be turning everyone in this administration from the IDIOTIC notion that islam has ANYTHING to do with "peace." ISLAM IS A DEADLY INFESTATION, AND HUMANITY NEEDS TO BE CURED and vaccinated FROM IT!

Islam can be defeated spiritually, and the imams and other speaders of ignorance and hate know how shaky their ground is if their "religion" is not "respected" (cowed-to). If we simply stop cowing to the infestation, fight this fight spiritually (Ephesians 6:12) as well as militarily, the we can save these people, rather than damning them all to hell.

The bottom line is: Islam is against 1st ammendment.

Bush and Condi are parrots to repeat the 'Izlum is a ....' line. Not to mention, Izlum's useful idiots. Therefore, Bush and Condi are against 1st ammenement.

Q. E. D.

Robert

I stopped by the Afghan embassy in DC yesterday for the rally and was a little ticked off to see there was no one speaking or agitating for freedom of conscience. That's the ultimate, the base line, the nec plus ultra, isn't it, from whence everything else follows? They were all clamoring for freedom of religion. That's great, but I couldn't help wondering who would speak for the Ibn Warraqs and Ali Sinas and Hirsi Alis of Afghanistan. Hirsi Ali would probably have no constituency in this country.

As long as Islam and its aspects that are antithetical to our American Way of Life (i.e. the Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc.) are protected by our misguided Freedom of Religion, we are bringing about our own destruction as a culture and a nation.

There needs to be a more precise interpretation of Freedom of Religion in the United States. No religion/cult should be free to bring about the overthrow of our government, our laws, our beliefs, our culture or our freedoms.

Islam is the enemy.

Ovidius, it's up to atheists and agnostics to join the clamour with 'freedom of conscience'. I guess the christians aren't going to do it for us...

Re "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights comes to mind. Shari'a is fundamentally incompatible to that declaration and if there ever was a meme that needed to be purged from the face of the planet, it is hard to imagine a more suitable candidate."

I'm really depressed though that some western laws are moving closer to installing and/or implementing blasphemy laws. (e.g. Norway) Christians would be very foolish to support this move, as it will be used against them and for Islamism.

God can take a few insults - that's safer for all of us than not being able to speak out when a religion is used to promote violence, sexism and world domination.

Bush--that is GW (but same goes for the senior) for whom I voted (in preference to the other candidate with his affected Brahmin aspect and simpering) knows very well what Islam is all about. After all, even if a legacy at Yale and helped along in his scholastic journey, he did graduate, so he cannot be a complete idiot.

BUT, remember "Bandar" Bush? Recall the cavorting of berobed Saudis at the Crawford ranch. He does not want to affront his desert buddies. And after all, where is Mecca and who are its stewards?

Therefore, although he may appear bereft of testicles, he is not. He is beholden to those who finance and guard the nest of desert asps from whence emanates the worldwide jihad.

The State Department, past and present functionaries therein, are for personal and private financial reasons--promissory and actual--also beholden to the brood that holds Arabia.

There cannot be a change in policy as regards the ideology of evil--Islam--as along as he administration and State remain as they are.

Do not look for succor from the Democrats or the rest of the Left. Although apparently not beholden to the financiers of the ideology of evil, this sector suffers from an incurable hemophilia of the heart. It is more concerned with the well-being of those who promulgate the ideology of evil (Islam) than with that of their own kind.

yohan:

just so you know, the majority languages in Afghanistan are Afghan Persian, and Pashtu. Despite using Arabic script, both these languages are Indo-Iranian, with language roots similar to Sanskrit. Very different from the Semetic languages of Arabic and Hebrew.

Literacy rate is 51% for males, and 26% for females in Afghanistan.

Additional information about Afghanistan is available in the Afghanapedia:
http://www.sabawoon.com/afghanpedia

as well as the oft-cited CIA factbook:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/

Being freed or exiled in not enough, Mr. Rahman must be freed and be able to walk the streets of Kabul in freedom. Having Canada, the EU, the Vatican or the U.S. imposing the outcome of this case upon the Karzai government may free Mr. Rahman but not make him free.

The Karzai government must come to the right decision by strength of leadership, and not parry the issue by allowing a ruling of insanity. Strong leadership is the only way the Karzai governement will gain credibility within Afghanistan, among its neighboring states and in the world community and not be perceived as a puppet of the U.S., especially if the U.S. is seen as having a heavy hand in the resolution of this case.

Karzai must stand up to the mullahs and clerics in his country if he expects the Afghani people to respect to his leadership. If Karzai fails in this task, he no longer leads the country, the theocrats do. If the West imposes its decision on the Afghanistan court, the backlash within Afghanistan would unfortunately reach the same result.

Being strong in the face of adversity is what the world community should be urging Karzai to do. I believe that is the message being conveyed by Rice and Bush, telling him you know what the right decision is, but you must make it, we will not impose it upon you. I also do not doubt that there has been an unwritten subtext to this message to Karzai. NATO troops will continue to do their duty in Afghanistan with or without you.

NO MORE AMERICAN BLOOD.
What is now being allowed to happen is a mockery of the soldiers who died to make Afghanistan free.

Heaven forbid that people be "free" to choose their own faith, and where they want to live. They're like the spiritual police from HELL!!!

I think we certainly must put pressure on Karzai...... but he is only the leader in Kabul really and just happens to be the person that the West talks to......more convenient and we can try and convince ouselves that we are doing some good.
There are so many "leaders"...... about the same number as there are families and even if there are Christian converts in half of those families they will either keep quiet or they will die because the mullahs and their blood thirsty hangers on will just slaughter.

Very difficult to democratize whole heaps of tribes,especially when the only thing they have in common is a blood thirsty cult worshipping a moon god.........I think even baboons do better than this.

Sounds so typical of a brain draining cult. You can join but you cannot leave. You cannot read literature of others who may believe differently than you. You may want to leave or believe something other than what the cult tells you you can believe.
Freedom, what a gift we have here in the U.S.A..
Cherish that gift and fight to keep it.

Look there was a time when heretics and apostates were executed in Christendom too. Times were different then. Let's get that clear. Because no doubt some cretinous liberal will draw the moral equivalency.

As far as heretics go, as Aquinas put it back in the 13th century, we execute counterfeiters who only dilute our currency, how much more fitting is it to send someone to the judgment of God who threatens the eternal destiny of people and the foundation of society?

As I say, times were different. Not that Aquinas was wrong in his reasoning. His same reasoning leads to different conclusions today on heretics. People in the developed world are better educated and able to think more for themselves (in theory anyway).

But it's important to know that the very idea of human rights is rooted in Christianity. The Greeks and Roman had no such idea, they thought some things were naturally right and naturally wrong, but not about rights, i.e. subjectively held limits on what the government can do to you. Rights against government oppression came about with the seperation of Church and State that Christianity requires ("Give unto Caesar...").

Bringing the Moslem world into modern times will have to be done by force. It's because their religion does NOT require separate state and church. Religious toleration, learned in the West as a useful and just policy over centuries, will never be learned in the Islamic world. It'll have to be imposed over a much shorter time frame. Incubators of hate and resentment, the ideological plug of Sharia has to be pulled.

Sharia law needs to be brought into accord with the UN Charter of Human Rights period (by the way largely authored by a student of Aquinas), or the thousands of Americans killed and wounded in Afghanistan and Iraq will have suffered in vain.

D. Ox
http://thomistic.blogspot.com

I think we should better explain the “ golden rule ” to the Afghanistan government.
The one with the “ gold ”, makes the rules.

Or we could say to both Iraq and Afghanistan, did you see what we did to your last government?
If you don’t start providing women with equal rights and let there be freedom of religion, the same will happen to you!

I really wonder what my cousin is going to think when he is on a Medevac Huey, putting his life on the line to rescue other lives. The official version, that is, of promoting "freedom", defined by our policy makers and politicians.

Soldiers will always do what they are told to do and usually do it very well. But he and I are aware that as long as a barbaric, dogmatic and oppressive ideology is the law of the land after we leave, "freedom" is all wishful thinking.

All the best,
Mac

Bar:

Karzai will last as long as we keep him there. We have no reason to stay and support them, the moment we pull out, the Taliban will be back, so why finance an Ersatz-Taliban government?

They will survive (always have) on opium export. Tthe terror is as inbred as the hatred, it is the natural mental state of the Muhammedan! For us, nothing will change, only we will keep our money in the pocket.

Important for us is to give neither them, nor Pakistan, nor Iraq or any other Mohammedan desert-hole ANY support at all. If they have something to sell, they will sell it at market prices. If they get cocky, we can bomb them from the air, with extreme firepower and overwhelming force.

And we should concentrate on a massive counter-propaganda-Da'awa campaign, to ridicule and to expose them until they either pack up & piss off or leave the cult. We must never let up! All efforts to establish Islam in the west must be nipped in the butt at the very early stages.

No more mosques. No more madrassahs! No Mohammedan immigration! Internment and deportations NOW!

The sooner people collectively realoze the true face of the disease known as Islam the better it will be.
Bush should not bow down to this maniacs and allow people that have switched faiths or abandoned Islam to be mercilessly executed.

Here is an interesting blog on the strength of Islam

http://blogs.wizbangblog.com/2006/03/24/islam-is-a-weak-religion.php

=====================================
Abdul Rahman has committed the "honor crime" of leaving Islam. His relatives and neighbors have been "shamed", think "tribal or clan identity". Rahman is shaming them by rejecting the "superiority of Islam".

Note the keywords words that identify "honor-shame" thinking in their statements: "insulting, humiliated, ashamed, shamed, honor"

"Rejecting Islam is [b]insulting[/b] God. We will not allow God to be [b]humiliated.[/b] This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate.

Karzi's Afghan government will find a way to release him from jail, but unless he leaves the country, he will be killed by a relative or neighbor to restore their "honor". Restoring honor requires blood revenge.

individual freedom of conscience is not yet part of this culture.

more here [url=http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2005/08/shame-arab-psyche-and-islam.html]
======================================

Give Fitzconnor credit. He called this whole deal 3 years ago. So did I, but I'm not an on-the-record essayist. I was making my predictions to dudes in overalls over a tumbler of Evan Williams in the bar down the state highway from my farm. But Hugh Fitzshanahan called this one publicly, on the record, as events were unfolding. He was right. He is right. It's not about him him, as he knows, it's about us and a whole hulluva lot more.

I want to ask the weak American government; Does democracy in the Middle East mean more freedom for terrorist Muslims, like Hams in Palestine and Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and more oppression for the minority Christians?!
Abbas

"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can too...We must set an example...He must be hanged."

What further proof do our legislators need that this is not a religion of peace, that these people are our mortal enemies, that we should no longer financially support them and that we should vigorously defend ourselves with an aggressive offensive against them?

"We are Muslims and these are our beliefs...The people will kill him if he is freed...We will call on the people to pull him into pieces so there's nothing left."

If these are indeed Muslims' beliefs and I've heard of no one at CAIR or any other supposed "moderate" Muslim group decrying this insanity, then why do we want these people in our country? If this is what they truly believe then I don't want them as neighbors. I don't want to see them behind the popcorn counter at the movie theaters I go to, or at the schools my kids go to or in line at the markets I go to. Since we know what they believe in, and it is diametrically opposed to what we believe in and since their beliefs threaten to destroy our way of life, what are we waiting for? And what is the big payoff to our elected officials who refuse to do anything about it?

After reading this I am starting to be amongst those who wants Bush impeached. I have always hated the democrats and its PC culture. But I realize my hatred for the left is the only reason I liked Bush. Impeach the bastard. Lives were thrown away for this. Billion if not trillions wasted for this. This is the democracy we are fighting for.

testing over.

Pissedoffcanadian, get a grip, slap yourself, drink a long molson ( oh, so sorry, is it coors now ) and take a few deep breaths...of something that's legal.
Nice to see that you want to impeach Bush, but, though we can use your oil, we are not currently in need of your votes.
You could join, if you would like, but no igloos, no little baby seals with ooooh eyes clubbed, definitely no Canerica, and the item that will, no doubt, clinch the deal for you, no free health system.

Expecting governments to take a clear, principled stand on this seems to be too much to ask.
America will NEVER be able to deal with Islam in any kind of meaningful way. The conservative christian majority will always provide cover and protection for Islam no matter the dangers to themselves. Islam is, after all, christianities bastard son (or maybe it was aborted). And the left worldwide seems to be stuck on stupid, so we can't rely on them.

RE: The conservative christian majority will always provide cover and protection for Islam no matter the dangers to themselves

The above post is a bizzare statement and now Christians are being blamed for Islam flourishing and it's action???

The real truth of the matter is that the leftists
or I should say Marxists are the true supporters
of Islam.

What I found bizzare was a poll recently that said most Americans would prefer a Muslim as president, than an athiest. I'm not sure if that poll was accurate, but I just assumed that christians anywhere in the world, not just America, would find any kind of crackdown on Islam a threat to their own religion so I doubt it will ever happen. And I'm not optimistic, particularily while you have a evangelical like GWB running the Whitehouse like a religious center.

And I agree , we are seeing the left collaborating with Islam and it apalls me.