Man charged in UNC assault claims Quran supports attack

UPDATE December 2006: Greetings, students of Carl Ernst! If you are reading this because of its link from Dr. Ernst’s syllabus for Religious Studies 161, don’t fail to read Sura 8, which doesn’t seem to have made the cut! For the context of Sura 8, see Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah, pp. 321-327 in Guillaume’s edition. (Also, remember that Sura 8 is entitled “Al-Anfal,” or “The Spoils of War,” which was the name Saddam Hussein gave to his Kurd-gassing expedition.) Note also that while Dr. Ernst’s heading for this section of his course is “Fundamentalist insistence on violence (both Islamic and anti-Islamic),” he includes no Islamic sources for you to read, and his inclusion of a Chick tract seems to be a peculiar attempt to caricature and dismiss a perspective that unfortunately is taken with the utmost seriousness today by millions of Muslims worldwide.

But I’m happy to help with those Muslim sources. Many people besides Osama bin Laden and Jack Chick have affirmed a connection between Qur’anic teaching and violence. In his sira, Ibn Ishaq explains the contexts of various verses of the Qur’an by saying that Muhammad received revelations about warfare in three stages: first, tolerance; then, defensive warfare; and finally, offensive warfare in order to convert the unbelievers to Islam or make them pay the jizya (see Qur’an 9:29, Sahih Muslim 4294, etc.). This is in Guillaume, pp. 212-213. Tafasir by Ibn Kathir, Ibn Juzayy, As-Suyuti and others also emphasize that Surat At-Tawba (sura 9) abrogates every peace treaty in the Qur’an.

In the modern age, this idea of stages of development in the Qur’an’s teaching on jihad, culminating in offensive warfare to establish the hegemony of Islamic law, has been affirmed by Sayyid Qutb (in Milestones and elsewhere), Syed Abul Ala Maududi (see his commentary on Sura 9:29 in Towards Understanding the Qur’an, the Pakistani Brigadier S. K. Malik (author of The Qur’anic Concept of War), Saudi Chief Justice Sheikh Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Humaid (in his “Jihad in the Qur’an and Sunnah“), and others. It is, of course, an assertion of no little concern to non-Muslims, since it encapsulates a doctrine of warfare against non-Muslims and their ultimate subjugation under Sharia rules, with all that implies. To reduce all that to sneers at Jack Chick is, in my view, apologetically motivated and academically irresponsible.

But of course, Dr. Ernst, although he has not hesitated to slander me as bigoted for daring to note that the ideology of warfare is taught by authorities many Muslims value more highly than they do Jack Chick, has declined to produce any inaccuracy in my work or debate me on these issues. You can inform him that the invitation is still open. (I might add also that it is amusing that a man whose work has been published by that august scholarly press, Shambhala Publishers, would find fault with my books not for their substance, but because of who published them.)

Immediately below is the original post to which Dr. Ernst has referred you, and here is comment seven, where I have repeated this message. I don’t want anyone to miss it.

***********************************************************

The students at UNC may be surprised to hear this claim from Taheri-azar, since their professors made sure they wouldn’t read, and probably wouldn’t even know about, the passages of the Qur’an that mandate violence against unbelievers when they were required to read Michael Sells’ selective and sanitized Approaching the Qur’an right after 9/11. From AP, with thanks to James:

RALEIGH, N.C. — The University of North Carolina graduate charged with driving a sport utility vehicle through a plaza at the school, which he called revenge for America’s treatment of Muslims, said in a letter the assault was justified based on his reading of Islam’s holy book.

“Allah gives permission in the Koran for the followers of Allah to attack those who have raged war [sic] against them, with the expectation of eternal paradise in case of martyrdom,” Mohammed Taheri-azar wrote in a two-page letter sent to a television news reporter and anchor at WTVD-TV, an ABC affiliate station in Durham….

Sura 9:111 promises Paradise to those who “slay and are slain” for Allah. Sura 9:13 asks: “Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!”

But instead of acknowledging that such verses (and many other similar ones) exist and could be taken by someone like Taheri-azar as inciting to violence, and then suggesting positive ways to counteract this, CAIR’s Ibrahim Hooper takes the easy way out and drags out his tired old hobbyhorse: Islam condemns the killing of the innocent. Great, Ibrahim. But when Taheri-azar says that “Allah gives permission in the Koran for the followers of Allah to attack those who have raged war [sic] against them,” clearly he has already decided that the UNC students he tried to kill were not innocent.

Hooper might actually have done some good if he had addressed that and explained why Taheri-azar’s victims were indeed innocent and why Taheri-azar himself should gave known that. But no such luck.

A spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Muslim civil rights and advocacy group based in Washington, said Taheri-azar’s claims of religious support for his actions are an old and repudiated claim.

“Islamic scholars have clearly and repeatedly stated that attacks on innocent civilians of any kind are prohibited by Islam and should be repudiated,” spokesman Ibrahim Hooper said Tuesday.

“There are people who have strange views about any number of faiths and they shouldn’t be taken as representative of those faiths. The people who kill abortion doctors claim they are doing it in the name of Christianity and we all know it is a distortion of Christian beliefs,” he said.

Cheap shot, Ibrahim, especially since Taheri-azar can quote the Qur’an in support of his views. Where are the Bible verses that sanction the killing of abortion doctors? You can email them to me at director@jihadwatch.org.

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Comments

  1. says

    “There are people who have strange views about any number of faiths and they shouldn’t be taken as representative of those faiths. The people who kill abortion doctors claim they are doing it in the name of Christianity and we all know it is a distortion of Christian beliefs,”

    Look at this freakin spin! Way to bring Christians into it cair. These people are absolute lunatics!! Lots of Christians running people over in the name Christianity….

  2. says

    Did the Christian Church burn witches, and hetric at the stakes quotes verses from the bibble which said never suffer than witch to live but burn her at the Stake.

  3. says

    Ahlan wa sahlan my misguided muslim blogger. Your argument means nothing unless you can find a 21st century example.

  4. says

    Taheri-azar claims this is the case. Millions of Muslims around the world say the same thing–and DO the same thing—kill. I KNOW for a fact the Kuran inspires acts of “terrorism.” So, why the hell won’t the Bush Administration, the ACLU and others on the left or right understand this?

  5. says

    pythagoras they hire advisors with doctorates from Ivy league universities who tell them a small minority, you know the rest. Why they don’t ask someone who has met a few of allah’s chosen killers up close, I’ll never know.

  6. says

    Defenderofislame.. com’on knackers, stay focused.. People over the centuries have interpretated these things to fit their own agenda but your war inspired qu’ran clearly states to any dilegent observer that non-muslims are apostates worthy of death: sura 5:33: “For those who do not submit to Allah their punishment is . . . execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet, from the opposite sides, or exile from the land (just to name one of many).. Com’on knackers, the qu’ran is far from a holy book and we are a “wake up” to the putrid man that Muhammad was and your idolatry is clearly evident.

  7. says

    A NOTE FROM ROBERT SPENCER, December 2006: Greetings, students of Carl Ernst! If you are reading this because of its link from Dr. Ernst’s syllabus for Religious Studies 161, don’t fail to read Sura 8, which doesn’t seem to have made the cut! For the context of Sura 8, see Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah, pp. 321-327 in Guillaume’s edition. Note also that while Dr. Ernst’s heading for this section of his course is “Fundamentalist insistence on violence (both Islamic and anti-Islamic),” he includes no Islamic sources for you to read, and his inclusion of a Chick tract seems to be a peculiar attempt to caricature and dismiss a perspective that unfortunately is taken with the utmost seriousness today by millions of Muslims worldwide.

    But I’m happy to help with those Muslim sources. Many people besides Osama bin Laden and Jack Chick have affirmed a connection between Qur’anic teaching and violence. In his sira, Ibn Ishaq explains the contexts of various verses of the Qur’an by saying that Muhammad received revelations about warfare in three stages: first, tolerance; then, defensive warfare; and finally, offensive warfare in order to convert the unbelievers to Islam or make them pay the jizya (see Qur’an 9:29, Sahih Muslim 4294, etc.). This is in Guillaume, pp. 212-213. Tafasir by Ibn Kathir, Ibn Juzayy, As-Suyuti and others also emphasize that Surat At-Tawba (sura 9) abrogates every peace treaty in the Qur’an.

    In the modern age, this idea of stages of development in the Qur’an’s teaching on jihad, culminating in offensive warfare to establish the hegemony of Islamic law, has been affirmed by Sayyid Qutb (in Milestones and elsewhere), Syed Abul Ala Maududi (see his commentary on Sura 9:29 in Towards Understanding the Qur’an, the Pakistani Brigadier S. K. Malik (author of The Qur’anic Concept of War), Saudi Chief Justice Sheikh Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Humaid (in his “Jihad in the Qur’an and Sunnah“), and others. It is, of course, an assertion of no little concern to non-Muslims, since it encapsulates a doctrine of warfare against non-Muslims and their ultimate subjugation under Sharia rules, with all that implies. To reduce all that to sneers at Jack Chick is, in my view, apologetically motivated and academically irresponsible.

    But of course, Dr. Ernst, although he has not hesitated to slander me as bigoted for daring to note that the ideology of warfare is taught by authorities many Muslims value more highly than they do Jack Chick, has declined to produce any inaccuracy in my work or debate me on these issues. You can inform him that the invitation is still open. (I might add also that it is amusing that a man whose work has been published by that august scholarly press, Shambhala Publishers, would find fault with my books not for their substance, but because of who published them.)

    And now, here is the original comment by Hugh Fitzgerald:

    ********************************************************

    Carl Ernst supposedly enlightens students at the University of North Carolina (Chapel Hill) on the nature of Islam. Of course his enlightment about this literal-minded religion in which the Qur’an is the immutable and uncreated Word of God must be based on the contents of the Qur’an, the Hadith (what’s that? his students reading this now ask. What’s the Hadith? Oh, he gave us two of those and told us not to bother to read any others because they wouldn’t be on the test.) and the Sira (what’s that?). Okay, but at least they know what’s in the Qur’an, right?

    No. Reading the Michael Sells’s version of the Qur’an, the one forced on innocent incoming freshman at UNC/Chapel Hill a few years ago (and may still be forced on them) is not becoming acquainted with the Qur’an. In fact, without reading several versions synoptically, without understanding the principle of abrogation or naskh by which the milder verses (such as they are, and few as they are) are cancelled out by the harsher later verses (especially the last of the Suras in time — Sura 9), and if further you do not realize how mild even the best English translation of the Arabic Qur’an makes it sound (the word “punishment” or “punish” in English does not convey the full meaning of the Arabic word or words it is used to translate), then that course is a guide to nothing and nowhere.

    Carl Ernst was a great pusher of the Sells version. What else is he pushing on his students? And who is minding the store at UNC/Chapel Hill to make sure that the scandal of apologists for Islam, who are light on the real thing, and certainly will not inform their students fully either about the tenets of Islam, or about the history of Muslim conquest and subsequent subjugation of all conquered non-Muslims (Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists), will be subject to oversight? Perhaps sensible people in the administraton can, if there is a separate department of Islamic or Middle Eastern Studies, place it under the careful jurisdiction of a larger department unlikely to be full of such apologists, and at least some of whose members will not be dissuaded from such oversight by cries of “faculty autonomy” nor intimidated by the claims of “professional expertise” that turn out to be false.

    Easy question: is the Sells version assigned to students at UNC/Chapel Hill in courses? Yes or no? If it is, then the President, the Trustees, and various interested faculty members should now take it upon themselves to read the Qur’an (with the necessary guides to interpretation, so that such seemingly innocuous phrases as “in the path of God” are given their real meaning, and by “guides” one does not mean Michael Sells at Haverford or those who backed the use of his sanitized Qur’an as required reading for those hapless, trusting Freshman). And they should, while they are at it, read the Muslim biography of Muhammad, and read as well the biographies of Sir William Muir, or Tor Andrae, or Arthur Jeffery, or other Western scholars of Islam. They should read a few hundred of the Hadith (the sayings and acts of Muhammad), which are as important, for most Muslims, as a guide to existence, as the Qur’an itself — and indeed the Qur’an without the Sunnah, it has often been said, could hardly be understood, but the Sunnah without the Qur’an is another thing.

    And then there are the books of Robert Spencer, and Bat Ye’or, and Ibn Warraq’s “Why I Am Not a Muslim,” and the anthology of Andrew Bostom, “The Legacy of Jihad.” Start reading, all over the campus — and compare what you learn with what certain professors have been assuring you, with their highly selective reading lists (if Sells is on it, can Maria Rosa Menocal be far behind? And what about Said’s “Orientalism”? And Khaled Abou el Fadl as a Young Star in the Firmament of — well, of something). All so predictable.

    As the students wander about, wondering where their former fellow student, that “nice guy, but a loner” Reza Taheri-Azar got his strange ideas, and they will wonder, because nothing any of them had even been taught in classes would lead them to think that there’s much to worry about from ordinary Muslims, from plain old Islam itself (it was just those “radicals,” “extremists,” “Wahhabis,” “Salafists,” those who “would pervert a noble religion” as Bush and Rice like to put it).

    Google “MESA Nostra” and start there. It’s a big problem. It’s all over the place. But on each campus, some faculty members, and some members of the Administration, and some trustees and alumni, and even some students, have got to grab hold of this problem, and not let go.

  8. says

    I don’t know Hugh. The Middle East studies programs in America are so corrupted and infiltrated by Muslim TaqiyyaMasters and their dhimmi apologists, it smothers and snuffs out any intellectual questioning of Islam’s true intent. Unless students choose to venture on the net, or better yet, do blog searches for Islam, like this google blog search, they will never get the truth.

    Google Blog Search on keyword Islam

  9. says

    Did the Christian Church burn witches, and hetric at the stakes quotes verses from the bibble which said never suffer than witch to live but burn her at the Stake.

    Posted by: DefenderofIslam at March 14, 2006 11:16 PM

    NO but some wicthes burnes some Churches in ALB just the other mo.

    BUT What does that have to do with the beheaded people found in Iraq the other day??

    So the mulsums burning and killing over cartoons is good with mulsums today ??

    what abunch of savages..

    Maybe the libs are right and we need to put the whole mulsum world out of our and their mesery??

    SOME HOW THE PEOPLE I HAVE BEEN TALKEN TO AINT FALLEN FOR THE CAIR BS ANY MORE??

    Seams people are wacthing out of the courner of their eyes and they don’t like what they are seeing and the Port deal Proves this the biggest screamers were the lib’s look at how quick hilliary ran to the mrico=phone and now not even her friend Finegold can save her??

    No even the Lib’s want the NSA to listen to islamic terrorist in the USA or where ever they are!!

    I am surprisd that CAIR can’t make this go away kind of screws up their plans in NC as a safe harbor??

    Part of the American Tribe
    Squirrel Hunter
    Spider Killer
    GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO DESTROY AL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND AL WHO SUPPORT THEM LET NOT THE WORLD BE DECEVIED BY THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR THREAT AMEN

    PS

    WONDER
    If he will use this one from the quran and how CAIR will explain this one?/

    Qur’an 5:37 “The [Christian] disbelievers will long to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out there from; and theirs will be an enduring torture.”

    EXPLAINS ITS SELF

    Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

    YEP GOING TO BE HARD TO EXPLAIN?

    Qur’an 8:1 “They ask you about the benefits of capturing the spoils of war. Tell them: “The benefits belong to Allah and to His Messenger.'”

    WAIT A MI. WAT ABOUT ALL THE PEACE STUFF CAIR TALKS ABOUT??

    DOES THIS MEAN BY MULSUM LAW WE THE USA OWN IRAQ AND ALL THE SPOILS SO WHAT IS ALL THE FUSS ABOUT CALL BY THEIR BOOK FAIR AND SQUARE!!

    Qur’an 49:9 “If two parties among the Believers fall into fighting, make peace: but if one becomes aggressive, then fight against the one that transgresses until it complies.”

    SO WHAT WAS THAT CAIR SAYS ABOUT MULSUMS NOT FIGHTING MULSUMS YES ANOTHER LIE??

    Qur’an 5:17 “Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, “The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.'”

    Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”

    Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: “God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’ But the Messiah only said: “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’

    NOW DO YOU THINK HE WILL BRING THESE THINGS UP IN COURT HOW CAN CAIR EXPLAINS THESE??

    Me i am for Eye openings this is the only way that the mulsum would can be saved from themselves look at how the mulsum world has sent others to kill the Iraqi people all for what because they hate FREEDOM well some things are worth fight for and Short Skirts are one YES FREEDOM!!

    If they can’t live in the west at all that is okay plenty of mulsums countrys to go live in. Will we trade with them yes can they live as the mulsums they want to be yes will they be allowed to come to our countries and change our country HELL NO!!!

    Part of the American Tribe
    Squirrel Hunter
    Spider Killer
    GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRNGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN

  10. says

    Allah made me do it and said it was ok.

    What a crock. Unbelievable.

    Belief in Islam must make its believers blind to all thinks not Muslim for this is a college graduate that can not comprehend what he did was totally unacceptable in the civilized world.

    Muslims in general are barbaric until they can prove otherwise, which will not happen until after the war with Islam and Islam is defeated.

    Be prepared be armed be ready.

    The Texican.
    Freedom, the only choice at any cost.

  11. says

    Defender: This is the only verse in ALL of the Bible that comes even close to what you were trying to get at. That was also about 4000 years ago and has nothing to do with anything that is going on with this subject.
    Exodus 22:18 (NIV)
    “Do not allow a sorceress to live.

    Jesus said to forgive your enemies and pray for those that persecute you. Mohammed said kill your enemies and subdue them. Can you see the contrast?

  12. says

    The perpetrator of this crime is nothing less than a terrorist who has committed an act of aggression on our soil. He is an enemy combatant, and should be treated as such. For our government to consider anything of a lesser degree only encourages more such incidents by others of his ilk.

    I want to put these followers of the pedophile and butcher Mohammed on notice. The Jewish Defense League will take note of any such act of terrorism against our institutions. The Academic community in America better wake up and realize that all the lemonade in the world will not stop radical Islam from doing everything in their power to destroy the United States, and Western Civilization as well. Like it or not, we are in a war for our very survival. Should we therefore keep our doors of our colleges and universities open to the enemy?

    Can a devout Muslim be an American patriot and a loyal citizen?

    Consider this:

    Theologically, no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.

    Scripturally, no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Qur’an (Koran).

    Geographically, no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

    Socially, no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

    Politically, no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

    Domestically, no, because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Qur’an 4:34).

    Religiously, no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Qur’an, 2:256)

    Intellectually, no, because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

    Philosophically, no, because Islam, Muhammad, and the Qur’an do not allow freedom of religion and expression.

    [http://www.JDL.Org.IL]

    JEWISH DEFENSE LEAGUE
    “When terrorism threatens our future, we cannot afford to live in the past.”

    THE MISSION STATEMENT OF THE JEWISH DEFENSE LEAGUE

    Adopted October 30, 2005

    The Jewish Defense League is an activist organization dedicated to the protection and defense of the Jewish people in the Diaspora. To that end, there will be no sanctuary for those who threaten or attack Jewish individuals or institutions. Never Again!

    We are the only pro-active Jewish organization whose members routinely place themselves in harms way, between our Communities, and Brothers and Sisters, and those who seek to do us harm. When there is a threat against us, we will be there to meet it head on.

    We are a confrontational, get in your face (when necessary) group, comprised of proud Jews who realize the dangers we face today. We teach individual self-defense and believe that all Jews must be not only able, but willing to do what is necessary, somehow, to defend themselves, their homes, and their Family. We will support and defend the State of Israel

    We live by the five principles as given to us by Rabbi Meir Kahane, ZT”L, HY”D.

    They are:

    * AHAVAT YISROEL – Love for our people: One Jewish people, indivisible and united, from which flow the love for, and the feeling of pain of all Jews.

    * HADAR – Dignity and Pride; Pride in Jewish tradition, faith, culture, land, history, strength, pain and peoplehood.

    * BARZEL – Iron; The Galut image of the Jew as a weakling, as one who is easily stepped upon and who does not fight back is an image that must be changed.

    * MISHMAAT – Discipline and unity; discipline and dedication — creates within the Jew the knowledge that he (or she) can and will do whatever must be done, and the unity and strength of willpower to bring this into reality.

    * BITACHON – Faith in G_D, And of the Indestructibility of the Jewish People. No matter how difficult, no matter how impossible the task may seem — if it is a good task, if it is a holy task — it will succeed, because it must.

    Become a member of the only Jewish Organization that confronts our enemies.

    THE JEWISH DEFENSE LEAGUE

    SEND AN EMAIL TO: membership@jdl.org.il

    “We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.” George Orwell

  13. says

    Did the Christian Church burn witches, and hetric at the stakes quotes verses from the bibble which said never suffer than witch to live but burn her at the Stake.
    Posted by: DefenderofIslam

    PLEASE SHOW ME THE CHRISTIANS WHO ARE DOING THIS TODAY.

    And also please show me any New Testament verses that support the burning of witches.

    Thanks!

  14. says

    “Com’on knackers, stay focused”

    Funny stuff!

    Defender –

    Nice try, but that information you concocted is NOT in any bible I’ve ever read. Could you be quoting from the satanic bible?

  15. says

    Poor “Defender of Islam”. He still brings out the rote garbage taught to him in his madrassa, thus making him such an easy target, it is embarrassing to even have to answer him.

    When and if he ever realises that he is living a lie he may someday learn to appreciate the truth and cease his specious Islamic comments.

    However, seeing as most Muslims by the age of puberty are effectively braindead when it comes to understanding the difference between koranic rhetoric and the truth, it is very unlikely.

    We should instead, pity him and show him compassion. It is not his fault that he was born into a creed of violence and lies. But it is his fault if he never learns from what he reads here.

    For his sake: no violence committed by any christian has justification anywhere in the words or actions of the christian prophet.

    On the other hand ALL violence committed by Muslims has a justification in both the words and deeds of their prophet.

    If you follow the creed of a prevaricating and violent narcissicist, you can hardly expect suprise if you find yourself hurting somebody and especially so if he is not a member of your creed.

    Open your mind defender and realise the lie that you live.

  16. says

    Moshe –

    I would be honored to support your group, as I also support Israel and the Jews!!!

    I know it isn’t much, but I have a sticker on my car that says, “I Support Israel” that I bought on-line from Chosen People Ministries.

    Your post was awesome, and very to the point. I agreed with everything you revealed about Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran, and I too want to stop this evil cult/religion from destroying Israel and the west.

    Israel and Jerusalem belong to the Jewish people – period. That land was given to the Jews – G-ds chosen people – and He never intended it to be given to anyone else – period.

    G-d said “I will bless those who bless you (Israel), and I will curse those who curse you”

    Thanks for the post!!!!

    Shalom!!

  17. says

    First it is than history fact that over 9 million people where burned at the stake by the Christian Church in Europe. Only in England where basely civil right where granted to the accue like being charge with than actural crime and a trail by than real court of laws. The England King even thought they didnot break away from Rome where not going to allow
    the Inquistion to run out of control in England as they did in Mainland Europe. Only about 12 witches where hang in England. In the Book of Judges in the old testment the Jew where order to murder childern, old people, pregeant woman by they leader. Which today would lead to War Crime Charges. There are islotrate case of Christian murdering people under Suffer to let any Witches to live.

    They ask it there is any bibble versed that can support commiting criminal act against people. They can it taken out of context. I read my Koran afew pages at atime than I never found any verse which would lead than reason person to commit criminal act if read in the right context. I than more than half way thought reading it than I never readed a verse that insult Christian or Jew. I was than Christian before I came than Moslim so I know the History of the Church.
    It took one of the weakest Pope to finalty end the
    Inquisition Terror when they threaten to turn on him it He didnot do as they tell him to do. This Pope loved to have sex with women. He got his cought up than face the Inquisition by banning it from enforcement of law. They job today to make up for they sinful act is to carryout relief operation around the world and to investable dead people for sainthood. No Moslim state in history have anything like the Inquistion, they did have groupies that investable and combat crimes and religious crime but they did it whin in than legal framework which limit what they where allow to do.
    Inquisition have no legal framework to limit what they can do, so it got out of hand real quickly.

    No Caph or Sultan would ever allow than orginate under they control to act like the inquistion did.

  18. says

    Defender of Islam…you are not doing much of a job: just count the number of Armenians massacred by Mulims this century to the total number killed in your above note.

    However, if you wish to be accurate then: add up ALL of the people killed in the name of islam to those supposedly killed in the name of Christianity. Muslims were massacring anybody nonmuslim from 620AD until NOW, so you have one hell of a high number if that is what you wish to compare.

    But all the above is pointless as you do NOT understand that the Old Testament has no role in the discussion of christianity which is based upon the teachings of JC (NT) who NEVER practised, advised nor threatened violence unlike Muhammad.

    Any violence committed in the name of christianity is in OPPOSITION to the teachings of its prophet and this violence was committed by political man not his God nor his prophet.

    Islam on the other hand simply continues still the violence both practised, advised and supervised by its prophet then.

    When will you wake up and see the truth instead of typing reams of pointless bullsh*t like you do above.

    Go read your Koran!! Not the edited sanitised version your madrassa teacher taught you, but the whole thing read it cover to cover and see for yourself, the violence within it. If you do not do this then you have no point in coming here as many here know your book better than you do as is fairly obvious.

    Why do you Muslims know so little about your own book and your own prophet? Are you scared to look?

  19. says

    do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; … surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. (Koran 5:51)

    That is just one of many insults to Jews and Chritians in the Koran. Of course Jews and Christians being considered a second class citizen to Muslims is in itself insult to the dignity of man, as in:

    Fight those who do not believe in Allah, … nor follow the religion of truth (Islam), out of those who have been given the Book (Jews and Christians), until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. (Koran, 9:29)

  20. says

    Moshe,

    It is even more egregious that, not only are we opening the door of our universities to the enemy, they are actively using the university resources to put the Islamic doctrine in plain view. It is there for all to read. It is so easy to educate oneself as to the dangers of Islam to our constitutional form of governement and to pluralistic society in general using the writings of Muslims themselves.

    For example, the Muslim Student Association (MSA) of the University of Southern California (USC) has a website, on the USC servers providing texts of the Koran, the Hadith and various articles concerning Islamic thought and practices. Of particular interest at this website is a page dedicated to misconceptions about Islam.

    This misconceptions page begins with a background statement that the MSA prefers not to refer to Islam using the word religion because in many non-Islamic societies, there is a separation of “religion and state” as found in the United States. The MSA further states that this separation is not recognized at all in Islam and that Islam is very much concerned with all that we do, including the political, social, economic, and other aspects of our society.

    The MSA itself states that Islam is not compatible with a pluralistic secular society in which all are free to believe or not believe in a deity in accordance with their own conscience. In fact this statement reveals a totality in the regulation of all aspects of society.

    It is interesting to note that, as Muslim and non-Muslim spout “Islam is a religion of peace” including our own politicians, the MSA sets forth that this statement is the primary misconception about Islam. In the MSA’s own words “It might seem strange to think of this as a misconception, but in fact it is. The root word of Islam is ‘al-silm’ which means ‘submission’ or ‘surrender.’ It is understood to mean ‘submission to Allah.’ In spite of whatever noble intention has caused many a Muslim to claim that Islam is derived primarily from peace, this is not true.” Therefore, the MSA specifically denies that Islam is rooted in peace as this concept is nothing but a false noble intention.

    It is also interesting to note that the MSA says that it is another misconception to aver that Islam is not compatible with democracy and democratic institutions. However, the MSA never denies that this incompatibility is a misconception, but goes on to positively state that a representative form of government by the people, as our Federal system under the Constitution, is actually un-Islamic. Again in the words of the MSA, “it is clear that the state’s obligation of obedience to the Creator is as important as the obedience of the individual. Hence, the Islamic state must derive its law from the Qur’an and Sunnah. This principle excludes certain choices from the Islamic state’s options for political and economic systems, such as a pure democracy, unrestricted capitalism, etc. For example, a pure democracy places the people above the Qur’an and Sunnah, and this is disobedience to the Creator.”

  21. says

    Islam condemns the killing of the innocent. And as that rotten to the core qur’an suggests, non-muslims are not the innocent.. What goes around comes around l always say.

  22. says

    Cheap shot, Ibrahim

    He knows his audience. Of course, he is speaking to the left-liberal establishment and tailoring his cant in ways that will push all the right buttons with them.

    At some time those people are going to have to wake up, do the hard and painful thinking that Christopher Hitchens has already (at least in part) done, and decide where their loyalties really lie.

  23. says

    Defender of Islam, please give the sources for your stats.

    If you know your Church history then please concentrate your argument on specific cases, then move on, because just focusing on witch burnings then inquisitions is nothing more than making statements about two very different historical periods.

    One needs to understand the background, the reasons, etc.

    This is not to justify any particular epoch, however it’ll make your case more credible without going on with your endless diatribes.

    PJ

  24. says

    The aftermath of the Crusades and Church history of five hundred years ago still burn in the psyches of those that want to equate twenty-first century behavior with that which was discarded in the 16th century.

    You all are stuck in the past. We don’t burn, hang or press witches anymore. We haven’t prosecuted a “war of religion” for hundreds of years.

    To do so would be barberous…no pun intended. Although the word has a Roman background, the more recent application refers to the Barbary Coast of North Africa where slavery still exists…

  25. says

    Moshe!

    We Hindus are the best friends of the Jews, because we both are facing the same people, who are trying to finish us off. We must join hands to survive. Philosophy of Hinduism is: Live and let live. Hinduism never claims that it is better than other religions. It says that all religions lead us to the same God, just like all rivers join the sea ultimately.

  26. says

    Defender,

    Look at the Bible using your own (Muslim) logic. Since the New Testament follows the Old Testament, it abrogates the Old Testament as a source of doctrine.

  27. says

    Instead of trying to play tu quoque with other people’s scriptures, shouldn’t Hooper be on the next plane down to NC to tell Taheri-azar where he’s wrong about the Quran, and why?

    Or can’t he?

  28. says

    Defender~ Please DO provide us with a link to this ‘9 million burned’ bit.

    That number is off by at Least a factor of 30, and possibly a factor of 300. Who are you quoting, Farakhan? (who claims 600 Million slaves were shipped out of Africa. Even if Every ship had carried 1000 slaves a journey, they’d still be shipping today).

    Defender, your attempts to defend are Pathetic.

  29. says

    What is most laughable about defenderofislam raising the Christian w!tch-burning example is that this practice ceased what, two centuries ago or more, with the Salem witch trials. On the other hand, in good old 21st century Saudi Arabia, the faithful are encouraged to turn over to the Muttawa (religious police) any persons suspected of practicing witchcraft. Earlier this year, Alhamedi, the ex-pat Saudi blogger, publicized the case of a Saudi highschool level science teacher who had been thrown in j@il because he took a stand against the religious fanatics teaching in his school. Among the bogus charges trumped up against him was being pro-Israel/Jews and a practioner of witchcr@ft. But for the public outcry that was unleashed, this man, whose only crime was to rip down a poster that promulgated religious h@tred, would have continued to be t0rtured and imprisoned by the official “defenders of Islam”, Saudi Arabia’s Muttawa.

  30. says

    Ibrahim Hooper is a sick and twisted little rat. This kind of thing drives me insane, when you have a villain who puts on his shiny new shoes for the ignorant, accepting masses, but quickly returns to his black cape and wand when he is in his laboratory, plotting mayhem against those same ignorant people.

    What a wonder of language, that it allows so much dishonesty and deceit to be passed off as reasonability!

  31. says

    Tubby Dougie Hooper is really something, isn’t he? I wonder if he was brushing the white powder that fell from his donut off of his jacket when he made this comment.

    He is a puke, and a disgrace to the family that raised him.

  32. says

    Hugh:

    If you get a chance, please deconstruct this incredibly interesting article on the Institute of the Arab World in Paris. Bat Ye’or mentions it 3 times in her book Eurabia and, as you can see, it really is concrete evidence of the Eurabian game plan of France:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/15/arts/design/15mond.html?pagewanted=print

    March 15, 2006
    A Cultural Touchstone Connecting Europe and Islam
    By ALAN RIDING
    PARIS, March 14 ” With memories still fresh of recent riots in immigrant suburbs of Paris, with anger still simmering over Danish cartoons lampooning the Prophet Muhammad, the Institute of the Arab World (Institut du Monde Arabe) on the banks of the Seine might seem an unlikely refuge from the tensions straining relations between European and Muslim societies.

    Yet on a recently chilly Sunday, large crowds of French men, women and children ” and only a smattering of foreigners ” were visiting the institute to see an exhibition called “The Golden Age of Arab Sciences.” And by the time the show closes on Sunday, its organizers expect to have received more than 200,000 visitors.

    Further, this is not a one-off phenomenon. A 2004-5 exhibition devoted to the Pharaohs notched up a remarkable 700,000 visitors over eight months. In recent years, a score of other popular shows at the institute have also highlighted both the artistic heritage and the modern creativity of a variety of Arab countries, from Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, to Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

    In other words, for all the talk of a fresh schism between Christian and Islamic worlds, for all the perception of mounting resentment in European societies toward Muslim immigrants, a good number of French people at least seem interested in learning more about Arab culture.

    So can culture serve as a bridge between Europe and the Middle East?

    In recent decades, the traffic has been largely one way, with Western popular culture ” movies, television, music and fashion ” penetrating Islamic countries much as colonial power did in the 19th century. Yet something of a rediscovery of Islamic art is now under way in the West, with new Islamic galleries in the works at the Louvre, the Victoria and Albert Museum in London and many other major museums.

    Still, the prevailing perception is that the European and Arab worlds are strangers who must learn to respect one another as equals. And this is where a show like “The Golden Age of Arab Sciences” can throw valuable light on the relationship. It demonstrates that in art, architecture, medicine, engineering, mathematics, geography and astronomy, these worlds are not in fact strangers. Most pertinently, they share common roots in the ancient civilizations of Greece, Persia, Egypt and Mesopotamia. When Islam was born in the seventh century, however, Europe was in the Dark Ages, the chaotic post-Roman era. And while Arab power was first manifest through military might ” its empire embracing the Middle East, North Africa, Sicily and much of Spain ” Arab scholars picked up in many areas where the Greeks had left off.

    A crucial tool was translation, first of Indian and Greek texts into Arabic, then later of these and other Arab-language texts into Latin and Hebrew. In mathematics, for instance, while the Greeks made important advances in geometry, the Arabs became masters of algebra (our very word is Arabic in origin, al-jabr) and trigonometry. Having adopted the zero from India, they also turned it into the key to multiplication.

    The exhibition at the institute tracks the development of Arab sciences through a series of fine objects, many, as it happens, borrowed from Western collections. There are stunning bronze astrolabes used to map the sky as well as 10th-century maps underlining the importance of geography to the empire; small hand-held compasses were, in turn, vital for determining the direction of Mecca at prayer time.

    Chemistry is a good example of how knowledge flowed: in ninth-century Baghdad, the show explains, Greek, Egyptian and Mesopotamian texts were translated into Arabic, enabling Arab scholars to advance their own research. Similarly, enormous progress was recorded in medicine, illustrated here by anatomical drawings and surgical instruments. Hospitals and medical schools were active in Damascus, Cairo, Baghdad and even Córdoba, Spain.

    Engineering and art came together to create perhaps the best known Arab “science,” architecture. The 10th-century mosque of Córdoba ” occupied by a Roman Catholic church after the “re-conquest” of Spain ” is among its treasures. Indeed, through the Arab presence in Spain and Portugal, Arab architectural style, including decorative tiles, reached Latin America.

    What makes this exhibition so different from the traditional displays of Islamic art in Western museums is that it not only reminds viewers of the extraordinary dynamism of Arab civilization between the 8th and 14th centuries, but also gives Arab culture its rightful place as one of the fonts of European art and science. In that sense, the Institute of the Arab World is fulfilling one of its mandates, that of deepening French knowledge of the Arab world.

    And yet, despite the success of its exhibitions, the institute remains something of a strange hybrid: located southeast of Notre-Dame, in a striking building designed by Jean Nouvel, it has operated since 1987 as a partnership between France and 22 Arab countries. Its 150-member staff is multinational, but it is headed by a French political appointee, at present an octogenarian Gaullist, Yves Guéna. Further, while all its partners are committed to supporting its annual budget of $26 million, some Arab countries fail to pay up, with the result that the French Foreign Ministry is regularly called on to cover the deficit ($3 million last year).

    As a cultural body ultimately subject to French and Arab political whims, then, the institute’s freedom to address contemporary issues between Europe and the Arab world is limited. Many of its conferences and debates address cultural subjects or nonpolitical themes like health, although two recent debates were topical: one addressed the culture of violence under Saddam Hussein; the other explored North Africa’s “memory” of French colonialism.

    Some French and Arab scholars nonetheless believe that the institute is well placed to do more to stimulate exchanges on broader issues dividing Europe and the Arab world. And many French appear to be ready. As the crowds flocking to the institute’s exhibitions testify, they are more open to the Arab world than recent headlines might suggest.

  33. says

    In the name of the United States of America, lock him up for attempted murder and when he’s done his prison term, send him to Saudi Arabia with a the Star of David tattooed to his forehead. º¿~

  34. says

    Hooper strikes me as a hypocrite who presents one face to the public but has another behind closed doors. That’s a moral issue. But beyond that, I think he needs therapy from Waffa Sultan. I detect an ocean of anger in him about something…He’s not kosher..he has some serious personal problem……

  35. says

    People are divided about what to call last week’s incident on the UNC campus when, police said, a man drove an SUV onto campus aiming to deliberately hit pedestrians to punish the U.S. government. Was this an act of terrorism?

    *73% Yes; it clearly was aimed at innocent people with the intention of intimidating or coercing the government.

    *13% No; it could just be the act of a mentally disturbed person.

    *10% Let’s wait and see what details come out in a trial before deciding.

    *3% It’s possibly terrorism, but it shouldn’t be called that because it could inflame the situation.

    *1% I’m not sure.

    Percentage of 5852 Votes

    WRAL.com SURVEY

  36. says

    “Sura 9:111 promises Paradise to those who “slay and are slain” for Allah. Sura 9:13 asks: “Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!”

    Defender of Islam,

    Why are you in denial what is said in the Koran? The above passages proves that the Koran gives its blessings to jihad.

    There is no burning of witches today. The big diference is that the Christian community leaders come out to condemm any violence done by those who profess faith in Christ. I have heard very little, if any condemmnation of terror violence from the Muslim community when there is acts of terror commited by Muslims.

  37. says

    The article about the “Golden Age of Islam” shows the usual inaccuracies associated with every aspect of the islamic view of world history. They lie not only about general history but about its detail.

    There was a “Golden Age” it is true but almost all of the scholars were not arabs but christians or jews. Virtually all of islam’s great “gift” to mankind were either stolen directly ( algebra from India) or from captive dhimmis. Every rich empire has time to indulge itself and the caliphate was no different except that when it came to oriinality and true creativity, islam seem to sterilise its own people. Very few have ever been truly productive.

    As a child I as in Constantinople and our guide was pointing out(in english) the marvellous examples of “Islamic” architecture to my parents.
    When I said that I had seen it all in Moscow he was quite annoyed. Islamic architecture is Byzantine with arab scrollwork and like so many of their “inventions” stolen from somebody else.

    The main reason as to why we needed the arabic copies of the greek authors was because over 80% of the books(scrolls, papyri etc)in the christian world were destroyed and all resident clergy(see scribes) killed by the Muslim invaders. The islamic closing of the southern mediterrnaen for nearly 1000 years substantially prolonged the dark ages all over southern Europe.
    I resent being told to be thankful because they did not burn ALL books.

    The reason as to why the caliphate so quickly faded was because they started to lose battles,
    starting at the 1683 battle of vienna. The reduction in the slaves and loot available had a direct effect upon the quality of Islamic life and as the caliphate retreated so did the standards drop. It was and always has been a parasitic economy rather like the Roman economy which was totally undermined by christianity and the frequent freeing of slaves which were the lifeblood of the Roman economy. This was probably more important in the wars versus the barbarians than was christian lethargy and pacifism. The caliphate’s economy was even more dependent upon slaves as was their army. It is interesting to note that the final destruction of the Barbary pirates in 1816 seems to haveb the last nail in the caliphate’s coffin nas after that the only slaves they could get were the inferior(not my view but the islamic view) black slaves from Africa and even these became difficult to obtain .

    Islamic societies are sewers of corruption and incompetence is because they no longer have their loot and slave driven economies which bought them everything that they desired. They have oil yes, but unlike slaves and loot all of which filtered down to the man on the street very little of the profits reach the avaerage man and almost none goes to help the average Muslim in a non-oil producing countries.

    About time someone wrote a book scraping away the bullsh*t about the Goilden Age.

  38. says

    Defenderofislam sez: “They ask it there is any ‘bibble’ versed that can support commiting criminal act against people.”

    No wonder you are confused…your reading the wrong book. Please read the ‘Bible’ and the history of the ‘Catholic Church’. You might actually ‘learn’ something.

  39. says

    Has there been one arrested abortion Dr killer that stood up in court and said, “I did it for Christianity”. What a crock these people like Hooper try and lay on us…

  40. says

    posted by Zethras “But all the above is pointless as you do NOT understand that the Old Testament has no role in the discussion of christianity which is based upon the teachings of JC (NT) who NEVER practised, advised nor threatened violence unlike Muhammad.”

    Not entirely true, Jesus’ dislike for Hypocrites was great, the moneychangers in the temple, the fig tree that he slew for appearing fruitful but bearing no fruit, not that that has any bearing on the lies DotI (defender of the indefensible) is trying to promote.

  41. says

    DefenderofIslam –

    I can see that you love your Quran, and that you love your religion; but I have a very important question for you.

    Do you love the Jewish people, and do you try to live in peace with them?

  42. says

    First it is than history fact that over 9 million people where burned at the stake by the Christian Church in Europe. ~ DefenderofIslam

    Deafen of Islam, I see the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, Allah couldn’t seem to do simple arithmetic and neither can you.

    Between the years 1500-1660, 50,000 to 80,000 witches were executed, that is a far cry from your 9 million, but like I said before, Moslems don’t care about details.

  43. says

    Hooper strikes me as a hypocrite who presents one face to the public but has another behind closed doors. That’s a moral issue. But beyond that, I think he needs therapy from Waffa Sultan. I detect an ocean of anger in him about something…He’s not kosher..he has some serious personal problem……

    Posted by: Frank at March 15, 2006 08:57 AM

    Frank:

    You are probably right about Hooper’s need for therapy. Check out the DSM IV (Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Health’s most recent edition) for underlying personality orders attributed to morbidly obese persons such as Hooper (I recall inability to accept personal responsibility as prominent) and, if you’re old enough, recall the late Godfrey Cambridge’s stand-up routine, which included his protest that if the audience thought he was fat it was proof that they were prejudiced against black people.

  44. says

    So you think the Ku Klux Klan and the Spanish Inquisition are bad?
    So do we, but…
    Put the Numbers in Perspective

    More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

    Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. (

    More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.
    19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals put to death in the last 65 years.
    (From the Religion of Peace website)

  45. says

    We don’t believe Muslims when they talk about the real Islam like this guy is, or Hook, or UBL, or Ahmadinejad — that is, the Islam of terrorism, violence, supremacism and intoleracne – we only believe them when they talk about the fake Islam, the peaceful Islam, the Islam of love and brotherhood!

    This must be part of the reason Muslims are always so crazy !

  46. says

    Defenderofislam: You are incorrect about the Christian church starting at the point of a roman spear. A little lesson for you, Christians were persecuted by Rome for the first three centuries of the church history.
    After Christianity became the state religion it grew in stature. When the Roman empire fell in the 5th centurty the church was well established and filled in the void in some areas of civil and political management.
    By the time of the middle ages it was entrenched in the politics of Europe and that is what caused it to lose its roots in the Bible. The reason the church was able to reform, by the likes of Martin Luther and others, was that it was able to return to its roots.
    The Church split at that time into Protestant and Catholic. The protestant Church brought much needed reform to the Chritsian church. The bottom line here is that when people leave the root, the Gospel of Jesus, they can turn wicked. The Christain chuch could reform because it had somewhere to return that was good.
    Islam has no such good place to go because Muslims that kill and destroy non muslims in the name of Allah are doing what Mohammed did. I can see why you defend Islam so strongly. If it cannot reform by returning to the Koran, than it must become something else altogether, or cease to exist.

  47. says

    Morguerat I agree totally with your criticisms about my post regarding JC, but I have to ask you: “how many people were hurt of killed by his actions?”.

    Then if there is any answer other than “none”, I will accept your point as valid.

  48. says

    DefenderofIslam…ok a few points.

    1. Your arguement doesnt make anysense. The early European church that burned witches was the Catholic Church. Its no news that the Catholic church had to go through some major reforms to get were its at today.

    2. that was centuries ago.

    3. Muslims are still actiing as though we live in that century.(hence the beheading)

    4. Those verses are in the Koran ive read them myself.

    and last but not least SHOW ME WERE IT SAYS ITS OK TO BURN WITCHES IN THE BIBLE!

  49. says

    defender
    I notice you are able to spell “koran”. For your next assignment try “Bible”. It’s easier using phonetics…bu..bu…eye..bu..bu..lll.