"March for Free Expression" goes wobbly

I would have understood if they had simply admitted 'we are too scared of being attacked'. That would have been a statement in itself. But this woffle is indeed 'intolerable'!

But if Prince Harry showed up wearing his Nazi armband in the context of free pseech only and not as his personal belief ot that of the monarchy, many would criticize the distastefulness of the non-verbal speech, but not his right to make it.

I was interested in the march. I read that they were distancing themselves from certain groups, and I didn't have a problem with that.

But then they caved:
Thursday, March 23, 2006
Muslims are Welcome: No Danish cartoons, please

Read the message board at:
http://marchforfreeexpression.blogspot.com/

A lot of folks are SERIOUSLY NOT HAPPY.

There was an Action Alert at Ummah.com claiming the march was Islamophobic and calling people to contact the police commissioner and the mayor of London.

The march organizers changed their tune suddenly. Wonder what happened?

Action Alert: Protestors to wear T-shirts with
Muhammad Cartoons at Rally this Saturday

Here's the link to the Ummah Action Alert:

http://ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82029

I can hardly wait to see who took part in this sham of a "march for free expression" where one expression of free expression, the cartoons, is --politely, ever so politely, we are not barbarians, we follow the genteel rules of decency and decorum -- not allowed for Muslims might find the cartoons "intolerable."

What's happening in this sadly dhimmified Europe is the total, radical inversion of concepts and notions and understandings that our collective linguistic wisdom expresses/manifests, and upon which our lives have successfully built. Think cold is warm, night is day, silence is noise, war is peace, slavery is freedom.

Use the link in the main body of this post to go to the Website for the march. Read the comments, the vitriol expressed at the betrayal. This non-profit organization solicited donations and now many are demanding their money back! Fat chance.

The official mission statement may have changed, but the people have not, we are still the same people with the same views.

Lets go out and express them, express your view, whatever it may be. The head steward has stated clearly that cartoons will not be confiscated nor people stopped from showing them.

I will be there waving the danish flag, that is a clear statement to anyone watching, the official mission statement will be overidden by our actions and statements on the day anyway.

Well lets see FREE Rahman on the posters and lots of them and also Freedom in Algeria,also Bring Freedom of speech to Saudia Arabia,etc etc I wish I could be there,what a oportunity to help Mr. Rahman.

What an opportunity to display Free Rahman placards.

mark52: "What an opportunity to display Free Rahman placards."

That is a great idea!

Quick! Get down to the craft store, get your T-Shirt transfer paper and start cranking out those "Free Rahman" T-SHIRTS! I'm making mine now! Oh, and include a smart-ass question like "You were saying something about peace and tolerance"?

Next time, start with modest goals. First, protesters against Islam. Denounce a variety of things that have Islam as the common thread - be it cartoons, murdering apostates, terror attacks, et al. That way, such a demonstration stays unappealing to Muslims, who stay out of it, and the original organizers of such a demonstration get to tell people what they really feel. As more and more such demonstations take place and grow, then figure out under what circumstances Muslims should be welcome.

Good point there Infidel Pride.

The changes that have occurred in this country, or indeed Europe, have not happened over night. Yet some people seem to think we can reverse or even negate these changes, almost instantaneously, if we could only gather enough of a crowd together.

Start small as mentioned above. Don't try to sway the whole countries opinion ( or indeed expect to change the way the left wing press reports ) in one big leap, because I don't think you would be able to jump that far and, instead, end up flat on your face back at the starting line.

If I was going to that march I would wear a "Free Rahman" T-SHIRT!, good point 3812Michelle.

But before knocking this cave in, note that Europe has fallen so low that it is a long way to get back up. At this point if the march comes across as being racist, we lose big time as it will be used by the Muslims to further erode our freedom of expression, sadly I happan to agree with the organisers.

I have called in a few favours to arrange childcare for tomorrow afternoon so that my husband and I can attend.

I was always intending to shout Free Adbul Rahman at regular intervals. My husband (who has an ireverant sense of humour remembers the free Astrid Prol episode, he was on duty during her funeral) has a habit of ending any call to "Free so and so " with the phrase "free with every packet of cornflakes". But as practising Christians this is dear to our heart.
I was wondering from the list of speakers whether I would hear much to inspire, the list seems very weighted towards Muslims and professional atheists. But we shall see.
If it gets hijacked by a large majority of extremists we shall pop into the National Gallery and celebrate some Western art.

the IHRC is also calling for arrests to be made

--------------------------------------------
http://www.ihrc.org.uk/show.php?id=1767

Islamic Human Rights Commission

20 March 2006

Action Alert: Protestors to wear T-shirts with Muhammad Cartoons at Rally this Saturday

IHRC urges all campaigners to contact the Metropolitan Police and the Mayor's office to request that they uphold the law and prohibit demonstrators from carrying Islamophobic placards and t-shirts at a 'March for Free Expression' this Saturday 25 March 2006.

I am not going. This is the message I left on the board:

Hello, March-for-being-terrified. So we have to await permission from Muslims in order to publish or show cartoons? Interesting idea of freedom of speech you cowards have. And by the way, any freedom of speech that does not extend to Fascists and racists is not worth the name - and I speak as someone who has an hereditary feud with Fascism. You have no notion whatever of what principles mean, and you never should have claimed to stand for anything if you are not prepared to STAND for it.

In my language, we have a proverb that says: "Meglio soli che male accompagnati". Better alone than in bad company. And in that goddamn march you would be in very bad company indeed. There is an evil smell about this sudden concession to Muslims, which suggests high-level meddling, and, just now when Ken Livingstone has finally outed himself as the most revolting kind of Jew-baiter, to pay attention to whispers coming from his direction is not only gutless, but politically very stupid. This is a time to hammer at the man and his Muslim mates, not to gracefully cave in.

Paolo, all it has done is prove how far free expression has been reduced, you are still marching for free expression, grit your teeth, hold your nose but do it. If I was in the UK I would go, because it is a start, please go. The MAC win by stopping people from going, its a numbers game, the more people go to defend freedom of expression the higher the profile.

Way to go Granny, I would wear a a "Free Rahman" T-SHIRT and have a banner with the cartoon of Mohammed pulling the donkey. I think a quite lethal combination I would think.

Daffersd - not on your life. There is no freedom unless freedom is a principle, unless it is granted even to people you hate - as I hate Fascists - let alone those you disapprove of. This march has nothing to do with freedom of speech: it is about limitation of it, and I want nothing to do with it.

I can't wait to see who doesn't show up. Will there be any politicians in support? Was this "compromise" some sort of ploy to get some politicians involved?

A disappointment, nevertheless.

From this I gather, that to make muslims feel welcome, the cartoons have been banned. This march is now really just another muslim demonstration for "Qualified" freedom of expression - ie precisely what muslims want - freedom of expression for everyone including muslims, but no freedom to criticise islam. This march is therefore the third muslim demonstration in London.

Paolo,

Look at what the organiser has now posted:

"It became plain to me from talking with a couple of British Muslim journalists over the past few days that even the most secular, cosmopolitan British Muslim seems incapable, at the moment, of accepting that a display of the cartoons might not be a racist attack on them."

He just dug an even bigger hole, as for these Muslim journalists, they do not understand freedom of expression or racism.

I agree with you and DP111 now, but people should still go, they should just make sure they turn up with the cartoons.

The Islamics appear to have won yet again, shit...

As quoted by "Voltaire", no not the original one but the organiser of the march

The principle of freedom of expression is used by some as a trojan horse, as a proxy for racism and islamophoobia. Not by me, not by us, and not by this campaign.

Amazing that he still regards criticism of islam as racism or worse, islamophobia.

I wonder if I said that I was fearful of travel by air due to islamic terrorism, that would make me islamophobic? Or if a muslim said he was afraid to leave islam for fear of being killed, that would make that person islamophobic.

What is clear is that the organiser has chickened out. I wonder if he will reimburse the money that was given to him in good faith, after his original brave intentions.

Why even have the march if the organizer thinks the motoons were "racist" in the first place? Seriously, if the motoon intifada did not happen, would there even be a purpose for this march? Of course "Voltaire", not wanting to offend the Muslims would say yes, but he wouldn't be able to give any examples of how our freespeech is threatened without mentioning the "M" word. How ironic is it that we were having a discussion here at JW a week ago on where the real Voltaire would stand on the motoon issue and many of us thought he wouldn't support freespeech and here we have a man who calls himself "Voltaire" who thinks these 12 mild cartoons are racist and playing into the hands of the far right! If we keep worrying about playing into the hands of the far right and alienating those reliable "moderate" Muslims, then we might as well just get it over with and say the shahada. We shouldn't be worried about playing into the hands of the far right but into the hands of the Muslim bloc for obvious reasons. Kind of sad how "Voltaire" will never realize this.

I think this is an absolute disgrace, and I will support no venues that discriminate against the British National Party, the only party in the UK that fights uncompromisingly for the rights of indigenous Britons.

This must a dhimmie venue, organized by people who wish to short circuit the movement for real freedom. Probably just like UKIP that was set up for one reason alone as well: To keep Nick Griffin and the BNP from gaining influence. I will advise people not to come to the London demonstration, or carry signs supporting the BNP.

Listen carefully: I do not say, that one has to support the BNP in order to join a free speech demonstration.

But it is absolutely unacceptable to exclude the BNP which is the first and worst victim of Tony B.Liars repressive anti Free Speech government.

It is exactly the same double standards that the Copenhagen Dhimmi newspaper Politiken and a number of Danish left wing writers and politicians have practiced. The supported Salman Rushdie, and wrote raging articles about the great injustice that befell him. But they did (and still do) everything to undermine freedom of speech for Jyllands Posten and it's supporters during the Mohammed Cartoon Crises.

I wrote this about the BNP on my page about the murders / gang rapes of white people by muslim immigrants:

In Denmark the Danish People's Party was deamonized in exactly the same way as the BNP is in England today. They were called fascists and nazi's.

Today this party is completely accepted and it's policies are now supported and copied by most other parties, including Labour (Social Democrats), except for the most fanatical left wing extremists and multicult radicals. Furthermore many other governments in Europe are beginning to look at Demark as an example for implementing more restrictive and responsible immigration policies.

This Danish version of the BNP has shown to be a responsible and reliable coalition partner for the government for many years now. The DPP is the third biggest party in Denmark. Current polls said the party has backing from 18 % of the voters.

No longer let yourself be fooled by the racist BBC, who pretend to 'fight racism', yet pick their reporters and staff on the background of race, and depict racism as somthing which is mainly perpetrated by whites. While the ugly truth actually is the exact opposite. Blacks and Asians in the UK are seven times more racist than indigenous white Britons according to an official report from the commission of racial equality..

From Racist murders of whites by immigrants.

Daffersd

The organisers, the so called “Voltaire” has already subverted the main purpose if the march, i.e., the unqualified support of freedom of expression in the wake of the Danish cartoons on Mo, cartoons that were quite mild and moreover were meant for a Danish audience. There is thus nothing that should prevent you from changing the purpose of your march. After all freedom of expression is part of the wider issue of freedom of conscience, of which there is precious little in the Islamic world, the statements of PC (how apt) Ian Blair not withstanding.

If you do decide to go to the march, the lack of freedom of conscience in the Islamic world in general, as the trial of Abdul Rahman clearly illustrates, is something that is worth shouting about. Hold a prayer vigil for Abdul Rahman and the thousands of Christians being persecuted and killed in Muslim nations.
I hope that this “defend to the death” Voltaire does not find a prayer vigil islamophobic.

Paolo

I have to agree with you. Organisers do sometimes have to compromise but this is not a compromise but a sell-out. It is, plainly speaking intellectual treason.

Igor

Great post. We are so worried about playing into the hands of the far right that we are in severe danger of getting into bed with the far more dangerous Nazis, the Islamists or islamofascists or whatever one may call them.

odin,

You are giving "Voltaire" far more credit than he deserves. We should never be afraid to speak the truth. Screw the consequences. Is the police going to arrest EVERYBODY in the march for carrying the motoons, even if they do it peacefully? It's not like they are going to physically rub the cartoons in the faces of Muslims and say "LOOK! LOOK!". Britain is the most dhimmified country in Europe (and perhaps the world), they need to do something to stave off the sharia encroachment and the original intent of this march seemed like a good place to start. As for being called a "racist", the BBC, Labour, and the rest of the elites think every white Brit is a racist unless they buy their multiculti crapthink wholesale. So really, what's new?

Remember,
We are all Danes now. We are all "racists" now. We are all infidels now.

Strange that the organizers of this march cannot see the hypocrisy of a "freedom of expression" march that bans the very cartoons fascists are trying to suppress.Rather then banning the cartoons they should make a point of displaying them.Isn't that the point of free speech and the free exchange of ideas? The organizers of this march have disgraced themselves. I would not participate in this sham of a march either.

Balder: now I have to take the other side. I have said, and I will say again, that the BNP are as bad as they are said to be. They are thugs and murderers. And violent racist beatings on the streets of Britain do take place - they are not just invented by the BBC. I have personally known of a couple. I have said that they deserve the right to free speech, because everyone does; but I will not oppose one kind of political crime - Islam - by giving my support to another - Fascism. First explain it to the members of my family who were murdered by the Nazis. Or, since we all admire her, try to explain to Oriana Fallaci why poor Nazis are so much less bad than they are said to be, see what she answers you - she who personally saw the corpses of her schoolfriends murdered by the ideological fathers of the BNP.

"Amazing that he [Voltaire] still regards criticism of islam as racism or worse, islamophobia."

I think Voltaire's reasoning is that the cartoons have been co-opted by the BNP. In my opinion, this Voltaire has given the BNP this power to co-opt. A march critical of Islam should allow those cartoons and it should not matter that the BNP likes to brandish those cartoons. Surely, people are smart enough to tell the difference between the agendas of two different groups. It seems Voltaire places his fastidious disdain for the BNP above his anti-Islamic principles.

I am not surprised - I know this jerk - about 4 weeks ago I accused him of being a coward - I was right - he is typical of the kind of efet arshole who is running the UK establishment - maybe the muslims deserve to defeat us if thats the kind of jerk that we are producing these days

I'd solve the problem by carrying a banner with both a cartoon (perhaps the one showing Christ, Buddha and Muhammad saying 'don't worry, we've all been mocked'), and ALSO a stating: 'We are NOT the BNP'.

It is both important and more politically powerful to clarify that not only the extreme right is concerned about this issue.

Well sorry, I guess this is a bit off topic..

I won't repeat my lenghty post at the March for Free Expression blog, herebut in stead urge you to listen to the Dutch anti-immigration politician Geert Wilders on BBC HardTalk last Tuesday. It shows the gap between Dutch realism and pragmatic thinking and the ideological dreamery of the British approach. See and listen here (Real Player)

Maybe the plan all along was to not show the cartoons, but they wanted money for their left wing rally, so, went under the pretence of a rally for free expression.

They're just one of the thousands of rip off artists who get money by deception.

So many people wanted to march for the right to free expression, but as always with the far left - it's been stifled - and they've robbed the people of their rights and money!

Voltaire should be guillotined from this site, going forward.

Just about to turn off ready to go out to it.
It got a mention on Planet Rock news at midday, and also that a Muslim protest agin the cartoons is to take place in Birmingham this afternoon. They interviewed the organisor of the Birmingham event but unfortunately I couldn't make out what he was saying.
Catch you later.

Here's some pics from the rally.

http://www.thatshot.org/march_for_free_expression_london.html

We arrived for the beginning and heard Mariam Namaze. We went and got something to eat and kept popping back. And so my husband popped into view in one of Sneakys photos - very sneaky, Sneaky! We missed Peter Tachell, I disagree with much that he was planning to say but anybody you was willing to make a citizens arrest of Robert Mugagbe has got something going for him.
It was peaceful, well ordered, but disappointingly low key. I did expect a higher turnout, having enticed my husband with promises of unicyclists and street theatre. There were posters of the cartoons and posters in support of Abdul Rahman as can be seen in the photos. I thought some of the proposed slogans were a bit wordy and they didn't look effective on a small placard. We didn't see any obvious BNP presence. One man asked what it was all about.
"Freedom of speech" I said.
"Oh" he sneered, "another waste of time".
"Well" I said, "not while you retain the freedom to say so".
And I sprinkled flyers about the area, National Gallery, tube, resturant, Covent Garden etc, which direct people to this site, faith freedom org, the works of Bat Yeor and a few other things of interest.
Such a shame about the weather.

"I think this is an absolute disgrace, and I will support no venues that discriminate against the British National Party, the only party in the UK that fights uncompromisingly for the rights of indigenous Britons."

who the hell are "indigenous Britons" anyway? if you go right back, its my forefathers - the Celts.
so , the BNP is all for Welsh right, and for restoring the Welsh language so, eh? If you take the "indigenous Briton" argument to its logical conclusion, Britain should be part of the Irish Republic, and its offical language should be Gaelic.

this just shows the craziness of the BNP argument - the BNP are born out of the National Front - and are a bunch of jackbooted, fascist, racist scum.

What we really need in the UK is more of the Pim Fortuyn and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and rather less of the BNP.

fellow dhimmiwatchers - there is hope. the cartoons WERE displayed:

http://www.thatshot.org/03.jpg

and the cops didnt arrest anyone.

also - to get people out to protest FOR something , rather than AGAINST something, says a lot. its human nature to protest against something. its much harder to get folks out to protest FOR something.

all in all - job well done. bbc and assorted media outlets took notice. it got into the MSM. and it could have been a huge damp squib with just one man and his dog turning out.

i think the folks on other blogs calling it pathetic are either BNPers who wanted a 1984 style 15 minute of HATE rally or Islamo nutjobs just posting anonymous comments.

the organisers made the right call with not wanting to display the cartoons - even though some did bring them. its the REACTION to the cartoons that the protest is all about - not the cartoons themselves.

if the cartoons really ARE offensive, then we shouldnt go on a Die Sturmer style rampage of shoving it into people's faces. But in my case, that "offense" has been lost with the Muslim's over the top violent reaction to the cartoons. That's my problem. The death threats, the boycotts, the psychotic reaction to some friggin drawings.

If the Muslim world had reacted non-violently, then broadly speaking , i would have been more sympathetic. I think all dhimmiwatchers understand the offense of "piss christ" for example.

I would have understood the offense a bit more - but i will NOT give way if that "offense" is forced on me violently.

I attended this afternoon's rally in London.

There was a surreal moment when when one of the organisers told the crowd that he had just been informed by the police that they had received a 'complaint' about one of the banners... I was incredulous when he then asked the individual not to display it any more... and this in a rally in support of free speech??!!

One of the previous speakers, Mariam Namaze, took the mike and quite rightly told the crowd that it would be wrong to allow those who complained to win the day. The Danish Cartoons depicting the muslim prophet were not, after all, illegal were they? She then rightly suggested that the entire crowd should pass the offending banner from person to person, holding it aloft for all to see. The police couldn't after all arrest everyone. I was proud to hold that banner aloft in the face of such a blatent attempt by “persons unknown” to impose their will on our freedom of expression.

I am glad that I went today but I was sorry that the rally didn't attract as much support as it deserved to and it felt a bit low key at times, especially when the rain came down towards the end.

www.talkveritas.com
No tolerance for intolerance. No apology for being free.

archduke,

I note with interest the picture linked in your post. The cartoon was caption with the name of the Communist Youth Organization. In a way I am heartened that some Communists believe in free speech and not the Stalinist or Maoist versions.

Still, the image struck me as incongrous. In the States, at least here in San Francisco, all the anti Iraq war rallies have been co-opted by Palestinian sympathizers, real Muslims and Communist, so I associate them all together as the opponents of free speech. Anybody who is seriously anti-war and for peace should be objecting to this co-option, as these very groups are all about armed insurgency and insurrection, not peace.

Zombietime had some wonderful pictures of the San Francisco rally showing all the Palestian flags carried by kaffiyeh masked morons, and tables of literature for various socialist and Marxists groups. Unfortunately, either the site is down, or the link to the pictures was intended to be tempory given the temporal nature of the subject.

I was peeved, maybe I should seethe instead, at our local news coverage. When reporting the rally on the nightime news, they interviewed only "non-offensive" protesters for clean-cut suburban image purposes, and did not show any wide angle shots of the crowd, although a fleeting glimpse of a Palestinian flag did make it into the shot. But the news did find time to focus on the counter-demonstration with lots of U.S. and Israeli flags being waved, conveying a not so subtle bias in the newscast.

It turns out that the "persons unknown" mentioned in my previous post were in fact part the "Muslim Action Committee". No surprise there then...

see http://muslim-action-committee.blogspot.com/2006/03/metropolitan-police-ignore-muslim.html

quote from MAC blog:
METROPOLITAN POLICE IGNORE MUSLIM CONCERNS
Despite being asked by the organisers not to bring placards with cartoons, and despite literally thousands of requests by Muslims and others that the police should prevent people carrying these offensive images, some protestors carried placards with the cartoons on and when Muslims who were present complained to the police, no action was taken. We condemn those secular extremists who attended who seem intent in damaging good community relations rather than building them.

It's good to see them exercising their right to free speech to prevent ours...

www.talkveritas.com
No tolerance for intolerance. No apology for being free.

secular extremists

Anyone who condemns religion is an 'extremist', or a 'militant athiest'. Religion is the reason the world is in the current mess its in, and religion will play a large part in the end of our civilisation. If people don't like hearing it then TOUGH.
Islam, the worst of all religions, does serve on useful purpose though, it makes Christianity look good, even to a practising athiest like me.

Sadly the UK has gone so far down the PC route that people are falling over each other to be offended; it's like a disease, everyone wants to either be offended for themselves, or offended on behalf of someone else.

Since the 7/7 bombings my muslim "friends" have had nothing to do with me, stating that "you lot" want to kick all the muslims out of the country. Also that all non muslims "make sweeping generalisations". I am not the most intelligent of people but isn't that a sweeping generalisation?

These were people who had been friends of mine for years, even though their parents would not allow me into their house, they were always welcome in mine.

I was quite interested in going to the "freedom of speech march" until it became the "total lack of freedom of speech" march. How can you have a freedom of speech march and tell people not to say a particular thing?

I am not nearly as bright as the majority of speakers on this site, but I wanted to have my say. I don't think that muslims should be murdered for their faith, even if I don't agree with it.

I've decided to challenge the politicians who have spoken against the cartoons (in the usual 'you have free speech BUT' way) with the following questions. I urge everyone here to ask your politicians similar questions. So far they have not replied, but I do think it is important to get their SPECIFIC GUIDELINES on exactly what offends muslims. They need to be put on the spot about this.

"Since you believe that the sensitivities of local muslims must not be offended, please give New Zealanders (including muslims), exact guidelines about what constitutes ‘insult’ or ‘offence’ and must be avoided, and what ‘moderate muslim’ means to you. I will inform the media of your answers, so that they know what they should avoid publishing:

1. A member of the NZ Labour party clearly condones sharia law and the killing of homosexuals and adulterers in Islamic countries (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10334250). Is he what you consider a 'moderate muslim'? Or is a ‘moderate muslim’ only a secular person such as Mr. Thomas Haidon of the Free Muslims Coalition, who did not object to the publication? From what type of muslim should New Zealanders take their guidance?

2. Do you believe that sharia law is incompatible with human rights? Having asked New Zealanders to submit to sharia law regarding the depiction of Muhammad, how much further will you allow this to go? Will you be allowing muslim offence levels to restrict women's choice of clothing? Gay people's freedoms? Jewish people’s safety? These are not arbitrary questions – these things are happening in Europe.

3. Do you believe that muslim immigrants and residents need to be made aware that sharia law will never be introduced in NZ? Or are you certain that muslim immigrants to NZ accept human rights, secularism and NZ law?

4. I am deeply offended by the sexist, anti-‘infidel’ and violence-promoting passages in the koran (some passages in the bible and torah are offensive too, but not as currently applied). What do you say about the offence to ‘infidels’ and women by the koran, since you believe the cartoons should not have been published because of the offence caused? It is no use to say that these are historical passages, since they are clearly used today to justify violence and sexism. It is also no use to say that ‘infidels’ and women needn’t read the koran, as muslims needn’t have viewed the cartoons.

5. As you believe that New Zealanders 'must use judgement at all times about what to say and not to say in the interests of better understanding and mutual respect', exactly what kind of depiction must not be made – each of the following options is represented by some muslims:

* No picture of any living being (i.e. most western art)? This attitude is represented in the useful site 'AskImam': “Pictures are forbidden in Islam. Those who take pictures will be sinful. Your duty is to stop it. If after telling them they still desist, then you are not responsible for their actions. However, you should also advise them and tell them what they are doing is wrong and they need to respect the laws of Allah and respect our feelings on the matter." (http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=95b3241e5c08becd081b5d70d688ccce)

* No pictures of any prophet or religious figure (i.e. much of christian art, and the exploded Buddha statues)?

* No pictures at all of Muhammad, even respectful ones (i.e. including some muslim art which depicts Muhammad)? Here are examples of Islamic depictions of Muhammad: http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/ .

* No 'disrespectful' depiction of Muhammad, while respectful ones would be acceptable? (Note that some of the cartoons were not disrespectful.)

* No dishonest depiction of Muhammad, whereas critical but honest ones would be acceptable in the name of open debate. This could include showing him with his 9 year old wife Aisha, killing people in battle, or, symbolically, with a bomb in his turban for inspiring suicide-bombings?

I look forward to your considered views on this. In international terms, clarifying our stance for secularism and democracy is essential.

Lili,

You've raised many good points.

I emailed the NZ PM some months ago about the MP you refer to. No response.

Just so you know, Thomas Haidon has posted here over the months, but I haven't seen anything from him for some time, now. He was born and raised a Catholic, in (I believe) New York.

I took the time to annotate the original twelve Jyllands-Posten drawings with info that you may not be familiar with (info that would help your cause, I believe). Of course, you are correct. Not all of them were offensive, and there was ZERO reason for news outlets to have not shown them.

Feel free to email me at robertcorrow@sbcglobal.net if you'd like a copy.

Bob

Thanks Bob, could you post it somewhere for everyone to use?

Paolo, well said. This site shouldn't become associated with the BNP which is a racist and fascist organisation. They despise Jews as much as they despise any other race.

Balder - Geert Wilders is only one marginal Dutch politician. Holland is just as compromised as the moment in general terms as the Uk. Don't go bleating on about the Dutch approach, it will eventually prove to be the same red herring that the much-touted Dutch tolerance proved to be. The Dutch are one of many, not a special case. Stop misinforming people about your country, be honest about it.