Clash of civilizations update from Kabul: "Afghanistan faced growing international pressure to resolve the case of a man who could face the death penalty for converting to Christianity, but many Afghans said he should be put on trial and punished."
From Reuters, with thanks to all who sent this in:
KABUL (Reuters) - Afghanistan faced growing international pressure to resolve the case of a man who could face the death penalty for converting to Christianity, but many Afghans said he should be put on trial and punished.The controversy over the man who gave up Islam threatens to drive a wedge between Afghanistan and Western countries that are ensuring its security and bankrolling its development....
Death is the punishment stipulated by sharia, or Islamic law, for apostasy. The Afghan legal system is based on a mix of civil and sharia law.
The case has sparked an outcry in North America and Europe but the clamor appeared to be only hardening the position of some Afghans.
Several clerics raised the issue during weekly sermons on Friday, and there was little sympathy for Rahman.
"We respect all religions but we don't go into the British embassy or the American embassy to see what religion they are following," said cleric Enayatullah Baligh at Kabul's main mosque.
"We won't let anyone interfere with our religion and he should be punished," he said....
Several other countries with troops in Afghanistan, including Canada, Italy, Germany and Australia, have voiced their concern. Some foreign critics have urged that their troops be withdrawn.
The Canadian government, which has also been in contact with the Afghan president, said on Thursday Karzai had pledged that Rahman would not be executed. A presidential spokesman in Kabul declined to comment.
Analysts say they doubt the man will be executed and his case could hinge on interpretations of the country's new constitution, which says "no law can be contrary to the sacred religion of Islam and the values of the constitution".
It also says Afghanistan will abide by international agreements, including the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which enshrines freedom of religion, and thus the freedom to change one's religion....
Actually it doesn't say that. It says Afghanistan respects the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. That is not the same thing as abiding by it.
But the case is sensitive for Karzai who is seen as a modernizer but who cannot ignore the views of conservative proponents of Islamic law or appear to bow too readily to outside pressure or interfere with the judiciary....Some Afghans believe Rahman is part of a Christian plot.
"He has been sent by Christian priests to convert others," said Ramatullah, a trader in the southern city of Kandahar. "He has sold out his religion and should be punished."
A cleric and member of parliament from Badakhshan province in the north said Rahman should be executed. "It would be better to get no aid or military help from the West for 100 years than accept this affront," said Sadullah Abu Aman.
Sadullah, you got yourself a deal.
Al Rantel, KABC talk show host in Los Angeles, is as good as they come at speaking his mind. He reported on his show thursday evening that a representative from CAIR will not come on his show because they consider him a bigot. That is code for CAIR being afraid to debate him.
Al was commenting on Abdul Rahman, who is facing death in Afghanistan for converting to Christianity. In typical Rantel style, Al came up with a good analogy.
"ISLAM IS LIKE THE ROACH MOTEL; YOU CAN CHECK IN BUT YOU CAN'T CHECK OUT."
Islam is a religion of intolerance. Fewer and fewer people in America and elsewhere are conned by the "Islamaphobia" nonsense. "Islamaphobia" does not sell anymore and people are becoming offened by CAIR style con games.
"Islam is a religion of intolerance." It's the plain truth.
Logic, Logic, Logic
If they execute Abdul Rahman
This fuels the Anti-War (Anti-American) crowd and they get their way, forcing America to pull out and the rest of the west follows.
The Taliban, and al-Qaida people move back in to power and start killing all those who supported the Karzai Gov. including cleric Enayatullah Baligh, businessman Ramatullah, and cleric Sadullah Abu Aman a member of parliament. (all three called for Rahmans death)
All of Afghanistan enters a new period of bloodletting that easily surpasses the Killing fields of Cambodia.
All because of one Christian.
Be careful people of Afghanistan, the gallows you build, might be your own.
"Analysts say they doubt the man will be executed and his case could hinge on interpretations of the country's new constitution, which says "no law can be contrary to the sacred religion of Islam and the values of the constitution"."
Remember the movie "The Manchurian Candidate," I mean the original version with Frank Sinatra." There was a great scene in which the American politician keeps changing the number of communists he claims are in the U.S. government. His manipulative wife, played by Angela Lansbury, said the benefit of the inconsistency was that the press was no longer asking whether there were communists in the U.S. government, but how many.
The same thing seems to be happening here. No one is asking whether someone should be put on trial or punished simply because of his personal religious beliefs, but only whether he should be executed. Actually, I don't like the word executed. In my opinion, this would be state-sponsored murder. If this incident does not finally convince the apologists for Islam that Islam is incompatible with American values, I think they are a lost cause.
."We respect all religions but we don't go into the British embassy or the American embassy to see what religion they are following,"
This has to be one of the silliest things I've ever heard from an Islamist. I doubt there are British and American citizens surrounding Afghan embassies in the free world, chanting, brandishing threatening signs, and tossing firebombs. He must be having a Cartoon Rage flashback...
"Some Afghans believe Rahman is part of a Christian plot."
Without a doubt, this is true. Rahman is part of a Christian plot to defend his right to worship as he wishes, and hopefully to make such a right the official policy of Afghanistan. He's probably even part of a plot to save as many of the damned souls of Mohammed bin Abdulla worshipers, as he can.
These people are more paranoid than "The X Files" character Fox Mulder!
Okay, I get it now. Here goes. It's alright to force Islam on a country or people that have it's/their own established religion. BUT, a person that's been a convert from Islam for 14 years has got to died because he's proof that there are converts from Islam. I've yet to read where he, Bro. Rahman, has forced Christianity on any Muslim.
Once again, I ask the the question to all of the pro-Islam folk like Naseem and Defender of Islam. Why does a person have to die for leaving Islam if it is a religion of tolorance and peace? Can't Islam stand up to the scrutiny? Can't Islam take the heat of trial under fire? Can't Islam stand on it's princpals and doctrines?
Please, seekers want to know. Are you out there?
HELLO!!!
They dont go into our embassies to see what religon they follow. No they go in to burn them down and behead their captives on Al jazeera television. Prime time!
7.62 PK,
But if we do pull out of Afghanistan and civil war breaks out, is that so bad from our persepective? The remnants of the Taliban will try to regain power but they'll have to fight the warlords that are already reasserting their authority in their districts. At the very least an Afghani civil war will buy us atleast several years. And since the Afghanis will be fighting each other and not communists, then will it be more or less likely for ISI and the Saudis to fund them again? They will probably just see it as an internal dispute and stay out of it. Keep in mind, they aren't fighting "secularists" but less draconian Muslims, but full Muslims nonetheless. It won't be another Cambodia but it could turn out to be another Somalia. Is that such a bad thing, again, from our perspective? I think the Afghanis have voted with their feet and they still want sharia, they just wanted new management. They don't respect freedom of speech or religion and there is no point in trying to change them because they don't want to change. So why are we wasting our time?
A cleric and member of parliament from Badakhshan province in the north said Rahman should be executed. "It would be better to get no aid or military help from the West for 100 years than accept this affront," said Sadullah Abu Aman.
___
Islam is the religion of intolerance, violence and murder. It does not matter which sect is in power they all follow intolerance violence and murder.
It is a lone Christian in Afghanistan now, but you, your family and the western civilizations tomorrow.
You can not reason with those that do not want to reason.
Democracy will never work with Islam for Islam can only exist in a sphere of male dominated intolerance violence and murder.
We should grant them there wishes, pull out and provide bombs and missiles across Afghanistan and the Middle East until Islam is no more.
The Texican.
Freedom, the only choice at any cost.
"Analysts say they doubt the man will be executed and his case could hinge on interpretations of the country's new constitution, which says 'no law can be contrary to the sacred religion of Islam and the values of the constitution'."
The Afghan constitution needs to be revised. It provides the pretext to establish Islamic law in the country which discriminates against non-Muslims and allows for severe penalties such as murdering a person if he becomes an apostate. Why is the west pouring money into Afghanistan if it won't change?
Iraq has a new constitution.
Read here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/24_08_05_constit.pdf
I am completely outraged and shocked that the United States and Great Britian have allowed the new Iraqi constitution to contain the same doctrines of Islam in the constitution which is nearly identical to "no law can be contrary to the sacred religion of Islam and the values of the constitution".
How insulting to the Americans who have lost their lives in the hopes of creating a truly democratic Iraq.
Dr Patrick Sookhdeo of the Barnabas Fund:
This organisation is well worth supporting. More detail of the Right to Justice campaign on the website linked above.
And now for something completely different. Or not. The riots in France over the new Labour law have acquired something the BBC call a violent fringe. Some may get a feeling of déjà vu :
"Youths", eh? It's the Y-front.
In an item which appears to have been removed, the BBC talked of trouble in the suburbs.
My money is on disgruntled existentialists.
Here is another link that contains the Iraqi constitution:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9719734/
I am torn about how to interpet these events. One the one hand, I view the noise made by the mullahs as strong evidence that they themselves know how brittle Islam is. Since its inception, it has not succeeded in expanding without conquest and tyranny. It took 1000 years to convert the middle east to its current Muslim majority from Christianity and Judaism. In Arabia, even pagans resisted Islam (or should I say Muhammad's imperial designs), whereas Europe was converted to Christianity by a small number of envoys. Perhaps I am ignorant of the history of the Christianization of Europe, but I have never heard of any inquisitions against the pagan nations of Europe after the fall of Rome, only against Muslims and Jews later on.
It is very telling that Muslim religious authorities are constantly harping on "threats to Islam". The real threats, as they are abundantly aware, are intellectual and not military in nature. The liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq and their subsequent military occupation (if you want to call it that) are only ENABLERS of the spread of competing religious ideas. I am 100% with Ali Sina on this issue; Islam is doomed the moment freedom of conscience arrives in a Muslim country. It might take a few generations but it is inevitable.
I do not like the idea of western governments supporting religious movements. However, the benefit to the west of spreading subversive notions in the Islamic world is overwelming. The added benefit is not a shot has to be fired. Plenty of people will die, certainly, but at the hands of Islamic religious authority only.
There is another aspect which is more upsetting. The mob violence against Christians disturbs me. Can it be that the grip of Islam is so strong that the general population will kill people without the intercession of religious authorities to incite them to violence? This can put a break on conscientious objectors to Islam speaking out or apostasizing publicly, and slow down the movement away from Islam. Tyranny gets under people's skin; it is human nature to revert to it when threatened, even by new ideas. In the end though I believe truth and the natural human desire to be free will trump this.
disgruntled existentialists
Or gruntled nihilists.
Igor-- fascinating how much of what you said also rings true about Iraq.
But I do think Iraq and Afghanistan would react differently to an abrupt Western departure (think Flintstones vs. Captain Caveman, I guess). Rather than there being a protracted civil war like what one would expect if we pulled out of Iraq tomorrow, I imagine one side-- the Capt. Caveman/Taliban/Sharia side-- would bounce back much more quickly due to their association with the Pashtun/Sunni majority.
Rather than being a distraction to the jihadists, then, Afghanistan would become more of a stronghold for terrorists than ever, and brand new military target.
The nattily dressed elites in Kabul know that's the alternative; if not, they're deluding themselves (which is entirely possible). But they need us more than we need them. One can only hope (and email some congressmen/senators) that Western governments will have the intestinal fortitude to follow through with consequences if Rahman is imprisoned or executed.
Al was commenting on Abdul Rahman, who is facing death in Afghanistan for converting to Christianity. In typical Rantel style, Al came up with a good analogy.
"ISLAM IS LIKE THE ROACH MOTEL; YOU CAN CHECK IN BUT YOU CAN'T CHECK OUT."
A fitting analogy, but I prefer using the statement above the doorway leading into Hell: ‘ABANDON HOPE ALL YE WHO ENTER’
It's just so much more fitting...
From the BBC dhimmis:
Under the interpretation of Islamic Sharia law on which Afghanistan's
constitution is based, Mr Rahman faces the death penalty unless he
reconverts to Islam.
"The Prophet Muhammad has said several times that those who convert from
Islam should be killed if they refuse to come back," says Ansarullah
Mawlafizada, the trial judge.
"Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. That
is why we have told him if he regrets what he did, then we will forgive
him," he told the BBC News website.
Dig the massive contradiction. Nothing short of insane.
"ABANDON HOPE ALL YE WHO ENTER"
-- from a posting above
All hope. Ye.
I am completely outraged and shocked that the United States and Great Britian have allowed the new Iraqi constitution to contain the same doctrines of Islam in the constitution which is nearly identical to "no law can be contrary to the sacred religion of Islam and the values of the constitution".
How insulting to the Americans who have lost their lives in the hopes of creating a truly democratic Iraq.
___
Two points.
1. It's none of our business what constitution
Iraqis choose for themselves.
2. I dont think that any American soldier in
Iraq was stupid enough to believe that he
was fighting for 'a truly democratic Iraq'.
Islam and democracy dont mix. Stay out of
Muslim countries, kick all Muslims out of
Western countries. End of problem.
7.62 PK wrote:
"All because of one Christian."
No, not really. It is because of Abdul Rahman that we know of what is happening to many other Christians in these hell-hole muslim countries. You can multiply him by several million.
It is obvious to me that what has happened is that we've replaced an Afghani government that was oppressive to everyone with one that is selectively oppressive to "only Christians." Is that truly better? I say not.
The truth of the matter is that the Muslim world in general, but in Afganistan in a special way is very fearful of a Christian faith community world wide that is growing the true fastest growing faith ( Christianity ), with the global south leading in growth numbers. They know that more Muslims are leaving Islam for the Christian faith because the Christian faith offers hope to believers. They know they are losing and so they are taking it out on this Christian believer, Adul Raham.
God Bless him and all Christians in the Muslim world.
I've been and I have done that. When does the pull-out begin?
IceRatt
SSG, USA
Islam, if it is a religion, at all, is a religion of harm...Mohammads prophet Allah made it that way...
Remember that Canadian Professor ( Mohummed Elmasry)that declared on a TV debate show that "All Israelis over 18 are valid targets for murder by suicide bombers" ,well his website ( CIC - Canadian Islamic Congress ) has posted a comment about the X-Muslim that's about be to murdered for embracing another faith and below is the partial extract to show how pathetic some Muslims are when denying the actual Quotes from the Quran and Muhammed.
Please note that he only denounces the murder based on a "Non-Blasphemous" offence and that he's a victim of a Political system not an Islamic system , this is one of the yahoo's in Canada that demands Shria-Law for Muslim females as a religous freedom inour Charter Of Rights.
Also note the tag-line that Christians should respect the 99% of the Muslims in Afghanistan, and to me this is a subtle threat to stay out of Muslim Countries.
But I guess it's OK for Muslim refugees to flee to Christian based Nations to impose Islam on 99% of the population by proxy , and it's Ok to insult Islam and Muhammed by living off welfare in those evil non-Islamic Western Nations .
Dougie Hooper has spoke volumes about Islam just by his overt deafening silence on CAIR's denouncing this Shria-Law practise that IS approved by Muhammed and most Muslims.
*************************************************
* Prosecution Of Afghan Man For Converting To Christianity Is Against Islamic Teaching, Says Cic *
-- OCCUPATION FORCES WARNED NOT TO TURN A BLIND EYE TO ABUSE OF
RELIGIOUS LAWS
The Canadian Islamic Congress today affirmed its support for an Afghani man who is being tried for converting to Christianity and could face the death sentence if convicted, despite a core teaching of the Qur'an that "there is no compulsion in religion." (Qur'an 2:256).
Abdul Rahman, 41, converted to Christianity 16 years ago while working in Pakistan for a Christian refugee aid agency. He was arrested in February after reportedly being denounced by relatives during a custody battle for his children.
"Afghanistan is not a free country," the CIC said. "Maintaining Law and order is the responsibility of the occupation forces, who must not turn ablind eye to this kind of injustice. To allow this man to be tried and possibly executed for a non-blasphemous act, and then blame Islam and Muslims worldwide, is totally unacceptable."
The statement emphasized that at the time of the Prophet Muhammad,conversions or re-conversions were not rare. In some cases, it was even encouraged, because if one felt uncomfortable as a Muslim, it usually indicated that their adoption of Islam might not have been motivated by complete conviction. The Qur'an states without qualification or exceptions,that "there is no compulsion in religion" and is the only holy book of any mainstream faith to say so .
"This prosecution is a POLITICAL ISSUE , possibly a personal vengeance issue as well, arising out of a family dispute. It is not about religion," the statement continued. "It says more about the lack of social development in Afghanistan today."
*The CIC also expressed hope and concern that aid groups are aware of and sensitive to the vulnerability of Afghani people to conversion, both at home and in refugee settlements in Pakistan. Afghanistan is more than 99%Muslim.
CONTACTS:
Mrs. Wahida Valiante
(905) 771-1023
e-mail: nvp@canadianislamiccongress.com
"We respect all religions but we don't go into the British embassy or the American embassy to see what religion they are following," said cleric Enayatullah Baligh at Kabul's main mosque.
No, you go into our embassies to burn them!! What the hell is that statement supposed to mean anyway?
"We respect all religions but we don't go into the British embassy or the American embassy to see what religion they are following," said cleric Enayatullah Baligh at Kabul's main mosque."
Liar.
1. Yes Muslims do come into non-Muslim countries and tell us that we should be following Islam. Sharia enthusiasts, would-be Mohammad cartoon punishers, and even Muslims who want to execute apostacy law on our soil.
2. No, you don't respect all religions, you kill anyone who changes to a different one than Islam.
3. Yes will will attempt to stop you from killing this man. Learn to live with it, cleric. Islam is attempting to destroy all other religions and disbelief, everywhere in the world. We cannot allow this to happen, anywhere. We should do everything we can to dismantle and disable this deadly cult anywhere it exists, anywhere in the world. Anywhere Islam exists, it represents a threat to our civilization.
From a statement by the CIC in ala-sux's post:
"The Qur'an states without qualification or exceptions,that "there is no compulsion in religion" and is the only holy book of any mainstream faith to say so."
Melanie Phillips at her blog today linked to a blog she praised at the Times Online by Ruth Gledhill. Ms. Gledhill wrote the following:
"Another Scottish academic, Graham Spence, contacted me this morning with some enlightening insights following the article I wrote for today's paper about Islam's deathly treatment of apostates. You can read here just one of the many sources I used for this short piece. Spence has studied Islam for the past five years both as a form of personal study and towards a degree and he is currently doing an MSc in journalism at Napier in Edinburgh. Regarding the Prince of Wales, he says: 'This is an impassioned speech from a man who believes what he is saying but clearly does not understand what he is dealing with....
On apostasy and the Koran, he writes: 'The Qur’an taken on its own without reference to the Hadiths or the Seerah makes no sense. The three work in concert, with the Qur’an being the word of Allah, the Hadiths the collected sayings of The Prophet and the Seerah being his biography. They work together as a literary trinity. The peaceful Surahh 2.256 which reads "Let there be no compulsion in religion; truth stands out clearly from error" is one of the most quoted verses, but it is usually quoted out of context, and is clearly contradicted by other verses.
'All the seeming contradictions between different verses are dealt with by the law of abrogation, which is taught by the Qur'an in surah 2:106,108, stating: "We substitute one revelation for another..." This is echoed in surah 17:86, which reads, "If it were Our Will, We could take away that which We have sent thee by inspiration." In surah 16:101 the law of abrogation is clearly defined as one verse being substituted by a better verse. Verse 101 read, "None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar- Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?"
'The Qur’an is not written in chronological order. It is possible however to link the different parts of the Qur’an to different periods of Mohammed’s life, each characterized by a slightly different philosophy. During the early part of his ministry in Mecca, his followers were few in number, and the peaceful passages all come from this period. During the Medinan period, his followers had grown in numbers, were stronger and much more influential and this is reflected in much more adversarial attitude. The third period, marked by the return to and conquest of Mecca gives us an altogether different picture of Islam and an intolerance of other religions. Surah 2.256 was thus abrogated by a later verse, composed after Mohammed had conquered Mecca and was preparing his new Muslim empire for Jihad against the non-Muslim world: "Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush" (Surah 9.5). This "verse of the sword" not only abrogates 2.256, but also abrogates well over a hundred earlier verses that formerly taught peace and tolerance toward non-believers.'
Spence continues: 'When you look at Mohamed’s life in conjunction with the Qur’an and the Hadiths you can see a pattern that is reflected in the Islamic world today. In Islamic societies which are complete i.e. have some form of Shariah law and are therefore closest to Mohammed’s third period, you see these aggressive attitudes to other religions writ large. In those who are closest to the second period, such as the Mogul rule of India, there is more tolerance, and in those where Muslims are a minority, such as the UK and France the philosophy of the first period applies. In places like northern Nigeria we are seeing a transition from stage two to stage three. Some argue that in the UK, France and Holland we are seeing a transition from stage one to stage two.'"
http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2006/03/prince_charles_.html
Archimedes noted above that cleric Enayatullah Baligh is a liar. The CIC are liars too. Frankly, if Muslims keep on with all this lying left and right, infidels just might start to get the impression that Muslims are, well to be quite blunt about it - liars. And pathological liars at that.
I do see such a fear in Islam for conversions away from their cult. their attack on those leave Islam is death. you do not see this from the Christians and or Jewish, Buddists etc. There are so few Christians in Afganistan, that they fear more converstions? we should go to the UN (big laugh) and demand equal treatment of religions in counties such as Saudi Arabria! yeah write Koffi!!
Muslim barbarians take over the library at the
university of Sorbonne /France and destroy 10 centuries worth of cultural heritage.
http://www.english-france-echos.blogspot.com
I see a lot of similarity between Islam and streetgangs like the Bloods, the Crips, and MS-13. They all share a great insecurity, and they are all effective in retaining their members through fear. Any organization that tells its members that they will die if they try to leave is an evil organization.
A cleric and member of parliament from Badakhshan province in the north said Rahman should be executed. "It would be better to get no aid or military help from the West for 100 years than accept this affront," said Sadullah Abu Aman.
Is there anything that ISN'T an affront to Islam?
Caroline:
The Canadian wing of CAIR is just as much a liar, below is their website release on the issue
and once again CAIR fails to link Islam to Sharia-Law and apostacy practises of killing X-Muslims.
CAIR Canada has been alleged to be given and still accepting money from the Wahabbi Saudis to spread their version of Islam and destroy Canada from within as Cancer does to the body , Sheema Khan ( AKA Con-job Khan ) is pro-Sharia and could only get Media time on the Public channels like TVO #2 and the CBC #6 which fear law suits or CRTC rulings that threaten their Licence to comply with the Standards for access, Khan was the head of CAIR-Can and used the media to spread lies about Islamophobia in the post 9/11 era.
The actual facts show that Jewish buildings and followers of the faith have recorded the highest increase following the 9/11 attack and partly bevause of Muslim claims that "The Jews" were behind it, CAIR has defended 5 non-citizen Muslim males detained for false papers and terrorism links but somehow they were victims of Racism and Islamophobia .
When the truth came out about the terrorism links that were proven it was CAIR that failed to apologize for blaming all non-Muslims as bigots and Islamophobes , and CAIR has been telling more lies about a Syrian Muslim that was denied entry to the USA from Tunesia while using a Canadian passport and leaving his wife and kids behind .
It's now obvious that we have " The muslims that cry wolf" and I no longer believe any of the claims about Peace and Tolerance .
***********************************************
CAIR'S WEBSITE POSTING
Muslims call for release of Afghan convert, protection of all basic human rights in Afghanistan
Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:02 pm
Conversion, freedom from torture, all protected under international law
For immediate release
The Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-CAN) and the Canadian Muslim Civil Liberties Association (CMCLA) today called for Canada to stand for the protection of all basic human rights in Afghanistan.
The call came in response to reports from Afghanistan regarding human rights abuses such as the case of Mr. Abdul Rahman, a man facing the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity, as well as Canada's potential complicity in the possible torture of Afghani prisoners by US forces.
"Canada must stand for the protection of all basic human rights in Afghanistan, whether it be for religious freedom or against cruel, degrading and inhumane treatment," said Executive Director Riad Saloojee.
CAIR-CAN and CMCLA called for Mr. Abdul Rahman's release, stating that conversion is a personal matter not subject to the intervention of the State. Islamic scholars hold that original rulings on apostasy within the Islamic legal tradition were similar to those for treasonous acts in legal systems worldwide and do not apply today to an individual's choice of religion.
In elaboration, scholars cite the following verses in the Qur'an, Islam's sacred text:
- If it had been the will of your Lord that all the people of the world should be believers, all the people of the earth would have believed! Would you then compel mankind against their will to believe?' (10:99)
-(O Prophet) proclaim: 'This is the Truth from your Lord. Now let him who will, believe in it, and him who will, deny it.'' (18:29)
-Let there be no compulsion in religion.' (2:256)
*************************************************
Amazing how much tripe they'll spew while thinking we're just as stupid and ignorant as some of their followers in the middle East that buy into this cult where Allah give special dispensation to murder on his behalf.
I read a article that Evangelical Christian held the highest percentage of aprehension towards islam and Muslims, NO S**T Sherlock ,Jesus warned about the "False Prophet" and to beware of people promising peace while they plot against you for a war.
Stegman: "I see a lot of similarity between Islam and streetgangs like the Bloods, the Crips, and MS-13. They all share a great insecurity, and they are all effective in retaining their members through fear. Any organization that tells its members that they will die if they try to leave is an evil organization."
Absolutely. And others here have repeatedly pointed out the similarity between Islam and the mafia (the jizya being comparable to the "protection money" one pays to the mob). Also, if you look at the pattern of Muslim intimidation in the west, e.g. in the many "no-go" Muslim zones cropping up in Europe, you see gangs. Muslims get on their cell phones and immediately summon a GANG. This happened in the Australian beach riots and it was evident in the Muslim French riots as well. Muslim gangs prevent first-responders from operating in Muslim-dominated areas in European "no-go" zones. The cartoon rioters obviously all operated en masse - in a horde. I have also read numerous accounts of western European infidels being assaulted and stabbed to death by Muslim gangs, quite out of the blue, on European streets, for doing nothing at all or merely for vocally objecting to some or another anti-social behavior. The Algerian Muslim cleric today stated that if Rahman were freed, Muslims would be incited to rip him apart. Again - the "gang". Muslim intimidation operates by gang-warfare. They can instantly summon a violent horde, all the more easily now that they have the technology - invented by infidels, and which they so despise presumably (both infidels and modern technology) - at their fingertips. They travel in packs. Like animals. Like wolves actually. The question is, who is going to start looking out for the sheep?
ala-sux,
Those Muslim groups are trying to pass of partial quotes as full quotes. Here are the full quotes.
10:99 And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers ?
10:100 It is not for any soul to believe save by the permission of Allah. He hath set uncleanness upon those who have no sense.
[In other words, even according to this verse, Allah compels them, ergo there is ompulsion in religion in this respect also].
18:29 Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!
[That's the whole verse!]
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
2:257 Allah is the Protecting Guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.
[Again this means there is compulsion in religion, on any straightforward definition of compulsion]. I deal with the illustrious 2:256 here:
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/guestessays/islam_compulsion.html
Caroline:
THANK YOU for posting on the topic of ABROGATION, and how Sura 2:256 is ABROGATED by later Sura.
Being aware of the concept of abrogation is NECESSARY to understanding the Koran. Likewise, contradictions in the Hadith are addressed by classes of Hadith, "strong" Hadith and "weak" Hadith.
Sina covers some of the Abrogators and the Abrogated:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/preacher_to_despot.htm
george_rem " Two points.
1. It's none of our business what constitution
Iraqis choose for themselves.
2. I dont think that any American soldier in
Iraq was stupid enough to believe that he
was fighting for 'a truly democratic Iraq'."
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Considering how many billions of US dollars and American lives have already been spent in Afghanistan and Iraq, I believe that it is our business, and the rest of the world's business, as to what kind of constitution is enforced in these countries.
The case of Rahman in Afghanistan is one glaring reason why the civilized world community should hold Afghanistan accountable for developing better human rights rather than ceding all power to Islamic sharia, which doesn't allow for tolerance or equal treatment towards the non-Muslim. It makes no sense to isolate Iraq and Afghanistan from the rest of the world community and allow Islam to ferment even more.
It is wiser to introduce democratic principles in these countries that tolerates pluralism and intellectual inquiry. Begin with the educational system and media (free speech). Separation of mosque and state- if instituted in these Muslim countries- will allow some fresh air to cleanse the stagnated and toxic air of Islam from choking the life of its citizens.
Sadly, this does not appear to be on the horizon. During the past few years, the U.S and Great Britian have not done enough to help establish an Iraqi constitution that calls for separation of mosque and state.
It is true that sharia has too strong of a backing in these Muslim majority countries. Yes, the majority of Iraqis and Afghans don't want a secular constitution.
But the rest of the world community shouldn't have to deal with the serious baggage (remnants of evil) from Muslim socieities which suffocate freedom of expression and don't have tolerance for other religions.
Killing apostates because they give up the Muslim faith is an evil action that is rooted in Satan- not God. Unless this kind of thing is competely stopped, it will continue and fester in other places.
Secondly, most US solidiers DO believe that they are in Iraq to help establish democracy.
The solidiers sure as hell don't believe that they are sacrificing their lives in Iraq to create a stronger Islamic state.
Apostasy is different from conversion.
The crime of apostasy in Christendom was against people who COMVERTED to Christianity, i.e who made a profession of faith, and then went back against that.
The crime was of renouncing what you had once believed to be the truth.
This is the evil of Sharia law that would kill converts away from the religion they were born into. It denies intelligence and conscience.
Condemnable. And Afghanistan and Iraq MUST NOT be allowed to keep this type of insane oppression.
From the DT.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/03/25/do2502.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2006/03/25/ixopinion.html
Well worth reading. The message is going out and the politicians will have to follow. I hope.
Jonathan posted: Killing apostates because they give up the Muslim faith is an evil action that is rooted in Satan- not God. Unless this kind of thing is competely stopped, it will continue and fester in other places.
I agree. Killing apostates is rooted in the muslim faith. So is the murderous hatred of Jews. If this sort of thing is not stamped on then it will spread. In fact it already is taking place. Even here in the West, muslims are afraid to leave islam because of the dire consequences.
Archimedes - the link you provided to your summary of compulsion in Islam in your 10:44 post is excellent. That's the kind of summary everyone should bookmark and print out to have on hand when they go into battle against the Islamic taqiyya masters at the local "interfaith dialogues".
And Jim the Kafir - likewise for that Ali Sina link you provided.
I recall a poster who not long ago requested that Hugh and Mr Spencer provide some helpful summations that people could print out. Well there are 2 excellent examples right there.
"Canada must stand for the protection of all basic human rights in Afghanistan, whether it be for religious freedom or against cruel, degrading and inhumane treatment..."
But emir, I don't understand, 'religious freedom' is the root cause of the 'cruel, degrading and inhumane treatment' we suffer...WHAWHAWHAWHAAAA
george rem:
"It's none of our business what constitution Iraqis choose for themselves."
Uh, yes, it is.
When the governments of Japan & Germany were ousted, those nations got constitutions imposed on them. We should be doing no less here.