From Al-Jazeera.net:
Hamas's draft government programme has left the question of recognising Israel to the Palestinian people - leaving the door open for a possible referendum.Hamas published a draft of its government programme on its website on Saturday.
The fifth article in the programme says: "The question of recognising Israel is not the jurisdiction of one faction, nor the government, but a decision for the Palestinian people."
Handing the issue over to a popular referendum would neatly disengage Hamas from being labelled as a hardline movement that refuses to recognise Israel on ideological grounds.
The US and EU have repeatedly said they will cut financial aid to the Palestinian Authority if Hamas forms a government that does not recognise Israel.
But any referendum would leave the US and the EU with little choice but to resume funding the Palestinians, regardless of the outcome of a vote, because America and Europe have always pledged not to punish the Palestinian people...
Recognizing that Israel actually exists, is not the same thing as recognizing Israel's right to exist. Look out for vague language.
Yah, we won't punish them as long as we can convince ourselves that what their leadership does isn't what they would do.....
If they had a vote and decided not to recognise Israel, well, they've made their choice, and we are just as entitled to make ours.
Let's assume that the Palestinian people take a vote on the right of Israel to exist. Would all the jizya tax payers,(most western countries) decide on a simple majority one way or another as to whether to continue the support of the Palestinian people, or would they want to see a 90 Pct. vote one way or another? Maybe they could fashion their (our) jizya tax to the percentage of voters one way or the other?
Sounds like someone is using their brains -
No man is an Island.
Get the Palestinian people to do what they can't stomach doing themselves!
But the Arab world has to realize - that this is really a choice between getting international support and not getting it.
This whole business of trying to elicit a "recognition" whichi will, in turn, open the sluice gates of Jizyah to the "Palestinians," is nonsense. It is nonsense because the "Palestinian people" --- the local Arabs renamed after the 1967 war -- would, if they "recognized" Israel, only be doing so for temporary reasons, in order to continue by whatever means proved most effective their Jihad.
"War is deception" said Muhammad, and from that statement, and from the behavior of Muhammad the Perfect Man (uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil), the model of how to deal deceptively with Infidels, the Treaty of Al-Hudaibiyya being the most important example, comes justification for the breaching of every agreemement or promise made to Infidels.
If, in order to keep Western Jizyah flowing, and for cosmetic purposes, there were to be some referendum held in which the locals voted, as directed to say that "Israel exists" this is not the same thing as saying "Israel has a perfect right to exist" and what's more, to exist within "defensible borders" as reasonably defined by the Israelis themselves and so on. And if one were really to press these local Arabs, the shock troops of the Lesser Jihad (but no longer the main troops of the world-wide Jihad, with its many succursales), into uttering a sentiment that would satisfy the E.U. or the Bush Administration, both of them clearly just itching to pay that Jiyzah, that "foreign aid" to the "Palestinian" people, it would mean nothing.
The Jihad remains. It remains in Qur'an, Hadith, Sira. The impossibility of permitting a non-Muslim state in Dar al-Islam, no matter what its size. It cannot be accepted. The only solution is based on the principle of Darura -- necessity.
Just as here, the principle of "Darura" may be invoked so as to temporarily pretend to "recognize the fact" of "Israel's existence." For that is how any recognition of Israel would be presented, and the Western world would no doubt deliberately choose to misunderstand. But in the same way, right now the Muslims in Europe "recognize the fact" that Infidels still make the laws, still control, in large part, their own countries. "Recognizing that fact" is not the same thing as recognizing the legitimacy of the Infidel laws, which Muslim populations have learned to selectively exploit (the welfare benefits, the free health care and education, set up and paid for by the Infidel taxpayers), and to ignore, when they wish, the laws of the country if those laws "contradict" the laws of Islam. And even the property of Infidels has, by some imams, been declared fair game so that it may be taken (that is, stolen) by Muslims, for they are merely helping themselves to that which the Infidels have no right to possess inthe first place. The world belongs to Allah, and to the Believers. Who could possibly believe otherwise?
The "Palestinians" cannot conceivably exist except on foreign aid. Over the past decades, they have transformed themselves into a primitive mass of pseudo-fighters, marching about in black balaclavas, producing their bombs, attacking Israelis or one another. Work is secondary ; the world owes them a living, apparently, and aid has been freely flowing from outside. It should stop entirely, so that certain new calculations will, over time, have to be made. Some will move away, realizing that the situation is hopeless for them, and that if they are to save themselves, they will have to give up being the shock troops and pawns of the Lesser Jihad. Others will remain, and sink into lethargy. Let them. Or let them find a way to obtain aid from the fabulously rich Arabs, fellow members of the umma, and not more Jizyah from the far-from-fabulously-rich Infidel taxpayers, who are tired of it all, and beginning to comprehend.
"Tell us what you want us to say we will do and we will say it. We wont do it, of course, but at least you can keep paying us and not feel so guilty about it"
"Darura..." my Arabic is getting better by the day....
words are useless unless actions taken coincides with those spoken. the PA had it down craftly, they speak with super huge forked tongue! the people can decide to get on with living alongside the Israelis, and welfare payments need to be curbed to only those who are truly needy, that is too sick to work for yourself.. no able bodies person need apply!
According to Douglas Davis (Spectator, 4 march 2006) Hamas has its eyes on the Hashemite kingdom.
Jordan has a Palestinian majority - around 80%. The piece is actually headed: "George W. Bush's drive for global democracy may hand the Hashemite kingdom over to Hamas".
What price the "neoconservative" let's-bring-freedom agenda now? Fukuyama, the "mind" behind this ridiculous clockwork model of "history", this absurd historical theodicy, has now recanted. I suppose if you're as far out in your predictions as he has been, the lucrative job offers might start drying up. Why pay for an analyst who clearly understands nothing?
These words are useless. These are right out of the Islamic play book. To blatantly breach agreements made by the representatives of the Palestinian people to Israel and in abrogation of agreements and undertakings already made that allowed Arafat and his henchman to come back to Judea & Sumeria armed, Hamas et al have made innumerable Friday sermons that Islam does not recognize the forfeiture of a centimeter of Dar al Islam to an infidel. Hamas has stated no Palestinian has the authority to do otherwise as it contravene Mo's immutable law! This is Taqiyah. Typical Islamic deception. Mo must have taught these folk that there is another Infidel sucker born every minute!
Will JImmy Carter count the votes?
Eastern Palestine -- Jordan -- has always had a "Palestinian" majority, and a largely alien ruling class, in this case consisting of a series of Hashemites, propped up first by the Arab Legion of Glubb Pasha and Alec Kirkbride (British-trained, British-supplied Bedouin troops).
Jordan is no differnt from pre-war Iraq, where majority Sunni Arabs ruled (as Ba'athists) over Shi'a and Kurds who made up 80% of the population. It is no different from Syria, where a military caste of Alawites, who make up ot more than 12% of the population, rules over far more numerous Sunni Arabs. In Jordan a Hashemite - the original Abdullah, older brother of the Feisal set on the throne of Mespotamia, was handed the hastily-created Emirate of Transjordan back in the early 1920s, when the British simply refused to apply the terms of the Palestine Mandate (about encouraging Jewish immigration and "close Jewish settlement" on the land). This was almost an afterthought, in the wake of all that publicity given to T. E. Lawrence, that mythomane (see Richard Aldington's 1956 biography, and Elie Kedourie's "In the Anglo-Arab Labyrinth"), and to the so-called "Arab Revolt" that looms large in Aram imaginings and resentments over supposedly "broken promises," but that had virtually no effect on the war effort (far less, for example, than the intelligence supplied by the Nili Group of Aaron and Sarah Aarohnson).
The Hashemites having been driven out of Arabia by the Al-Saud (who quickly named the country "Saudi" Arabia), they were a family in search of a country, or a crown, or something. Younger brother Feisal was given the crown of Iraq, a nation cobbled together from three former Ottoman vilayets: the vilayet of Mosul (Kurdish), the vilayet of Baghdad (mainly Sunni) and the vilayet of Basra (mainly Shi'a). The latter was added in order to satisfy the Government of India (as the Raj was called), which wanted British control of a refueling and reprovisioning (food) stop on the way from England to India.
Abdullah, the older brother, needed some consolation prize, otherwise he might set his sights on Syria, which had been assigned to France as the mandatory authority. That might cause trouble between Britain and France. So "Palestine" east of the river Jordan, entrusted along with the rest of "Palestine" (as it had been known to the Western world -- under the Turks there was no such place, for its territory was assigned to several vilayets and the separate sanjak of Jerusalem) to Great Britain as mandatory power, for the express purporse of facilitating "Jewish immigration" and "close Jewish settlement on the land" was closed off to both that immigration and that settlement.
The Emirate of Transjordan became, after World War II, the Hashemite "Kingdom" of Transjordan and then Jordan. That veil should be pierced. Practically everyone in "Jordan" is a "Palestinian." Save for Abdullah, who might, if he ever loses his throne, declare himself Guardian of the Two Holy Places In Exile. Deploring the behavior of the Wahhabi usurpers. A far-fetched idea, but is it any more far-fetched than the attempt to make of a country, Iraq, a "model" for Sunni Arab countries though the single most important fact of that model is the transfer of power, after centuries, to Shi'a rule from Sunnis?
If that was once deemed possible, what can't be?
It looks as if that's in the process of happening. And, yes, why not?
But if Jordan falls under the control of Hamas what will that mean for Israel - the only democratic (in the deeper constitutional sense) state in the area now and for the forseeable future?
Practically everyone in "Jordan" is a "Palestinian." Save for Abdullah, whose Mother's family come from just outside Iswich.
Hamas appears afraid that aid money will be cut off from the parasitic Palestinian people.My question is why is Hamas afraid when there are supposedly 1 bil Muslims who can come to the aid of the beloved Palestinian people?
Democracy is on the march!
Not to worry: You can always rely on your old enemy for support:
http://www.yahoo.com/s/278934
Rice wants to keep the Jizya flowing, regardless....
"America and Europe have always pledged not to punish the Palestinian people..."
--- from Al-Jazeera broadcast, quoted in the article above
Look at that remark. It sums up so much of the Muslim attitude. Not coming through with more billions of dollars is interpreted, in the Muslim world, as a way to "punish the Palestinian people."
They see this Jizyah as theirs by right, and ending that Jizyah as an unfair punishement.
That attitude has to be forcefully ended. There should be no transfer of wealth from the Infidels to the Muslims of this world, except for what must be transferred because over the past one-third century the Western hirelings of the Arabs largely prevented, by encouraging successsive American governments to put their trust in Saudi Arabia, the formation of a sensible energy policy.
If Party A ceases to lavish endless support on Party B, because he finally discovers that that someone because he discovers that Party B not only is not grateful, but is actively hostile to him, wishes him ill, teaches his own children from their infancy to hate him, Party A, and his children, to wish them ill and desire their ultimate conquest and subjugation, even if that prospect seems as a practical matter unlikely, then Party A surely has no need to explain why he ends that lavish support to Party B.
And if Party B -- if those Arabs and Muslims -- choose to call this "punishment" what should we reply to them?
No reply is needed. We need not respond to their expressed desires, their false cries of victimhood, nor to their threats that naturally follow after. Nor need one pay any attention to their expressions of undying friendship, and special favors, no different in kind or intent from the bazaari in the souk: Oh, effendi, I love you more than I love my father, effendi, I love you more than I love my mother, effendi. And just to prove it, instead of charging you 100 times what something is worth, he will bring his price down. To only 50 times what it is worth. No? Okay, then, 20 tiimes? No? Okay, then only ten times what I should be charging you, you Infidel dog. No?
Ah, it seems that sanity has broken in.
I thought the election of Hamas by the "Palestinians" was their referendum on Israel -- and the voted for genocide.
Why do Muslims demand so many chances to wiggle and squiggle out of stuff?
Monday -- Russia's deal to refine Iran's uranium is a GO... Friday, Iran says NO.... The "Palestinians" vote overwhelmingly for Hamas, whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel, and now they want a referendum to re-decide whether or not Israel is cast into the sea...
Somewhere between the first tower falling and the second I ran out of patience with Muslims and their quaint little ways...
Demanding Power: An Aksa Martyrs Brigades gunman carries a homemade rocket launcher
during a protest demanding job opportunities at the Palestinian Electric Company near Nusseirat
in the central Gaza Strip on Saturday.
LOL Things like that make it impossible to take those people seriously. Evidently violence is the answer to every question.
Write rice off as a no show in the good sense department.
The pals have had plenty of time to come up with a working ecconomy....end all aid.
Question for clarification from Mr. Fitzgerald:
Does Party A know anything about Party B's writings? It certainly doesn't appear so... And everyone wants to know how the story ends. Does party B die an unpleasant ignominious death. Does Party A live happily ever after? And what city X is the common thread? In this post at least I think I know the answer to that portion of the riddle...
They may say it's up to the people but then they will coerce the people into doing exactly what they want....I'm talking about the imams and mullahs who more or less control the people.
"We are letting the world think that you have a choice but don't for a moment actually think you have, vote our way or die"
These people don't have conscience or soul. If the rest of the world, in their gullibility, believe anything that these nasties utter, we are lost.
An incredibly clever move from Hamas. Honestly, when it comes to getting money by crooked ways, Islam is the daddy. A shame they cant use that thinking for science, invention, medicine etc.
Another thing that someone says earlier - when did the Arab Muslims take the name Palestein? before Islam was even INVENTED people from palestein where all different faiths under that name. Buts its never been a country, or a state - its always just been an area, like Siberia is area - so what is there to give back?
in that area, what happened to the Jews, Christians etc ro make them the minority when once they where the majority?
Give them nothing, not even money.
The routine the PA and Hamas will have to come up with to pull this switcher-o off is something to put Abbott and Costello to shame.
In the left hand, they keep "We must annihilate Israel!".
But in the right hand, they rub that secret ointment in, made of nothing but flies... and then they can say: "No, we DO recognize Israel!".
They can hold two contradictory thoughts, simultaneously.
They'll even vote on it.
Just send bales of money to cover the production costs of the Play. (Lots of dry ice.)
Co-starring- Jimmy 'Jizyah' Carter as Fatha Rectitude, an idelogical savant who can count a mess of dropped votes in an instant.
But, if Hamas can vote their terrorist-genocidal charter out of existence, send them free peanuts.
"regardless of the outcome - we pledge not to punish the Palestian people"
Oh - so we're going to REWARD them instead - lets not add to the insanity!
And letting the people decide is a ridiculous plan, because we KNOW how they'll vote.
Hamas isn't as cunning as I once thought - this act of cowardess speaks volumns about their leadership, and it wouldn't surprise me if they put women and children on the front line; with the hopes that they will save their sorry b-hinds.
I am just wondering if we are missing a point or two here or is my take on history wrong. As far as I am aware what is now called Palestine was originally inhabited as a Holy Land by Judeo/Christians. Then the Mohammedans invaded and most of the Jews and Christians fled or were masacred or in the case of the women raped and masacred. The Crusades which took place almost 400 years later were not European Christendoms aggression against Islam but a belated response to those 400 years of Islamic invasion and barbarity. Their purpose was to save Europe and to eject Muslims from European territory and RECOVER the Holy Land for the Judeo/Christians ( I know mainly for the Christians but you get my point). In this they were mostly succesful in ejecting the INVADERS from Spain and the Balkans but were never able to consolidate the RECOVERY of the Holy Land despite taking it a few times. So my point is how does this land now become OWNED by Palestinian Arabs? Does Islam dictate when history starts and thus who owns territory?
Way to go, realist! Most people don't know the true history behind the Israelite-Palestinian war, but it goes something like this: after Jesus was crucified in 31 AD, the temple of the Jews was completed in the year 63. Three years later, the Jews decided to revolt against the Roman empire (revolts against the Romans were not an uncommon activity, even if unwise). Titus came in and demolished Jerusalem in April of A.D. 70 during the Passover. He accomplished this by trapping tens of thousands of Jews behind Jerusalem's walls, blocking off all escape routes & tunnels and brutally starving them in a horrific famine (driving the Jews to barbaric acts that I will not describe here). By the time Titus had effectively starved them & burned down Jerusalem, the historian Josephus stated that about 1.1 million Israelites were dead & 97,000 were taken away as prisoners (most of whom were fed to the lions in those glorious acts of humanity indulged within the Coloseum structure).
However, another doomed revolt against Rome -- led by Bar Kochba -- took place in A.D. 132. When the Roman emperor Hadrian rebuilt Jerusalem, he decided to rename the city Aelia Capitolina and rename the country itself as PALESTINE (his way of mocking the Jews by renaming their country after their old nemesis ... the PHILISTINES. He then banned the Jews from Jerusalem.
So, as we can see, a long history of enmity existed between the Israelites (to whom GOD had given the Promised Land of Canaan) & the invading Romans (who, much like the Muslims, acquired their position by barbaric acts of invasion & helping themselves). The land over which the Palestinians are screaming, "Occupation!" has always belonged to the Jews -- it would have been theirs this very day if they hadn't disobeyed GOD & continued to revolt. "Palestine" comes from "Philistine," and Hadrian renamed Israel as Palestine just to mock the Jews.
And "elephant" is right -- we have to watch the word-play in all their declarations.
May GOD bless you all!
KimEllen (Make A Difference Ministries)
Kim,
the Land of Israel as a whole was called Judea [Provincia Iudaea] by the Romans. Judea included the Golan Heights, Galilee, Samaria, Transjordan along the Jordan river, the northern Negev, the Shefelah [or Shephelah= Lowlands], as well as Judah or Judea in a narrow sense. The geographic term Judea has two usages, one narrow, for the southern part of the country, Jerusalem and south, the area of the former kingdom of Judah, and one broad. The narrow sense was used by Jews, harking back to the kingdom of Judah. The broad sense of Judea was used by the Greek and Latin writers, and by the Roman empire officially until the Bar Kokhba uprising was suppressed [135 BCE], as you point out. The New Testament used the term Judea in both the narrow and broad usages, although usually in the narrow, Jewish sense. However, there are two or three verses in Luke and Acts where the NT uses the broad, Greco-Latin sense of Judea.
The American people are quite capable of taking care of themselves. Even against the likes of Islam and its hordes of killer-zombies.