And seventeen people wounded in simultaneous attacks on three churches. From AP, with thanks to Ogden:
CAIRO, Egypt (AP) -- Three knife-wielding men attacked worshippers in simultaneous attacks during Mass at three Coptic churches in the northern Mediterranean city of Alexandria, killing one person and wounding more than a dozen others, police officials said.The attackers fled following Friday's attacks, and police cordoned off the churches and set up checkpoints in an effort to find them.
One worshipper died and at least two others were in serious condition, a police official said on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the press. Initial police reports said a total of 17 people were injured.
Hundreds of Christians gathered in angry protest outside the churches. Witnesses said clashes erupted between Christians and Muslims in the Sidi Bishr neighborhood, the site of Saints Church, where 10 people were reported wounded in the knife attack.
Yes, clashes "erupted." Three guesses on which side was the aggressor.
Here we go, another violent attack of a another Christian church during this holy time of the year.
They really love to hit the unbelievers on their holidays:
The Jews on Yom Kippur, the Hindu's on whatever their festival was, when they bombed their temple in Varanasi.
In Indonesia they regularly attack the Christians for Christmas and now the Copts for Easter.
And our idiots stuff around and cant decide on whether they should attack the terrorists in Iraq or Afghanistan during Ramadan...
Shows that the Muslim faith is sinking very fast indeed when even the non-Muslims cannot worship freely during their holydays.
Bastards!!!
More on this over at MSNBC
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12313596/
"In October, Muslims attacked churches and shops in Alexandria over the distribution of a DVD of a play deemed offensive to their religion. Four people were killed in weeklong riots. "
'Deemed offensive to their religion,' apparently the only religion that is allowed because their belief tells them so.
With ambitious attitudes like that the rest of the world needs legal recourse from Islam
I would like to highlight a few non accurate comments published earlier. First of all for Coptic Christians [95% of Egyptian Christians] this is not a holy time, as Easter is next weekend. Second, Muslims do believe in Jesus, Moses, Abraham and other prophets highlighted in the bible. Now these are both comments from someone who studied Islam and Egyptian history and culture.
With discussions like this and comments like the one above, although might be true and accurate, they do not serve the purpose that the world needs. The world needs people on both sides communicating and dialouging, because without both we will not coesxist and conflict will occur!
Discussions like this put moderate muslims, the ones seeing issues with their religion, on defensive. It makes moderate muslims focus on defending their religion rather than focus on evolving the religion.
You need to realize that religion is very important to everyone living in this region, it plays a bigger role than in most cultures around the worl.
Funny how President Jorge Bush hasn't been using the Religion of Peace moniker lately. They could come here with impunity, but if you go to or live in "their" lands you are lucky if you don't get killed. This one way street has to stop.
"We are trying to calm the situation after many of our youth started protesting," Father Augustinos said. "We are telling them to calm down. It doesn't do any good for the country to make protests. We want to live in peace and tranquility but these are people who had their family members killed or wounded. We are doing our best." (from Ha’aretz report).
This is the Christian response – after years of dhimmitude. “We want to live in peace and tranquility” – but appeasement isn’t working of course – it never does. It is so wretched.
MemZ:
"...Muslims do believe in Jesus, Moses, Abraham and other prophets highlighted in the bible. Now these are both comments from someone who studied Islam and Egyptian history and culture..."
What did you study? One could suspect you went to the wrong school!?
The cult of Mohammed worships Mohammed and Mohammed alone. The claims on Jesus, Abraham & other prophets 'highlighted in the bible' are false and serve only one purpose:
To Make Da'awa and to pull the wool over the ears of unsuspecting infidels & potential converts.
Communicating with Mohammedans is a one-way street, it always ends in demands for the infidel to 'surrender to Islam'. The cult & the Koran are 'immutable', the surah's in the Koran are 'Allah's law' and can't be changed, which pits Islam against the rest of the world.
The 'moderate Muslim' is a fantasy of the west, just like your 'evolving' Islam. Islamic Jihad 'evolved' since 1400 years, and we are still fighting the same war.
"This one way street has to stop."
-Founding Forefather at April 14, 2006 10:15 AM
I don't know about you, but I'm in no hurry to go live in some giant, crazy-making hot, 7th cent. kitty litter box.
The street doesn't need to go both ways.
It just needs to be blocked off.
Memz, do you really think there are moderate Muslims or are they just non-committed to the true Islamic gospel of Jihad? The western world is past the point of caring what moderate Muslims do. They do nothing and that is the problem. Soon it will be their problem because they will lose their reality to the strong willed Muslims.
I'm am just as earnest when I say the free and civilized western world needs protection against Islam.
In the US we have a concept separation of church and state. That has evolved into removing prayer from our public school system. Now what if a US Muslim student in Brooklyn, NY is required to pray 5 times a day and attend public school in NY. He will have to pray.
No! Absolutely not!
If his religion makes his lifestyle incompatible with a modern western way of life then he really has to exclude himself from a living in a modern western society. It is just incompatible. He may pray in silence or at home or in a mosque but not in a school.
Not in public either when his Azan clock dictates. Praying in aisles on trains, planes or buses should be a fire safety rules violation, obstructing an emergency exit path! Allowance of these things must end, legally.
And it does not sto in th west. All people should press for rights of non-Muslims in Muslim lands as well. An atheist, Christian, Jew, Zoroastrian or animist should be able to live freely and practice as he/she wishes anywhere--even in the very heart of Mecca!
sheik, I agree communicating with Mohammedans is a one-way street. They do tend to listen to overwhelming force, put a squad of grunts with full battlerattle in front of them and they are real meek. Three attacking hundreds is easy when they are young men attacking older people (I suspect this to be the case), it does sound like they fought back based on the numbers injured. I often wonder how many of these type attacks whould stop wrold wide if the Christians just shot them dead on the spot. It looks like the Hidus know how to fight back: NEW DELHI - Two bombs exploded at New Delhi's main mosque shortly after hundreds of worshippers offered Friday prayers, injuring at least six people, the mosque's chief cleric said. The followers of mo will be in for a world of hurt if the Christians organize, they are under attack worldwide but iqnore it. Africa is only one example, I see no Babtist church passing the hat to arm Black Christains, why not? They freely give to feed the hungry, arm the helpless.
Surrrre...the efforts of Jihad Watch exposing the threat of Islam is the problem...instead of Islam itself. Good luck trying to get the other "side" to quote unquote 'dialog' - while people like you are busy shooting off your mouth, the "other side" is busy shooting off their AK47s.
Ohhhhh...It's the "discussions" that are causing Muslims to go in the wrong direction. You mean there's no tolerance in Islam? It's not a "religion of peace" after all? What are you, an Islamist?
Pictures:
http://freecopts.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=79&Itemid=9
Warning: graphic/disturbing
MemZ:
The world needs people on both sides communicating and dialouging, because without both we will not coesxist and conflict will occur!
I certainly agree with you on this. Unfortunately, many Muslims don't think so. The Muslims have declared jihad on infidels and the People of the Book and are bent on destroying the churches and killing them, in Egypt, in Pakistan, in Indonesia, in Sudan, in Nigeria, etc.
So, first of all, stop attacking the non-Muslims and stop treating them like dhimmis.
MemZ
UPI got the Coptic Good Friday date wrong, maybe the muslims did too:
Egyptian churches attacked on Good Friday
CAIRO, April 14 (UPI) -- Muslim extremists posing as beggars attacked three churches in north Egypt on Good Friday, killing one worshipper and injuring 16 others.
A security source told United Press International that the incident occurred in the morning as worshippers attended mass in the churches of Saint Georges, the Two Saints and Abu Keer in the city of Alexandria on the Mediterranean Sea.
The source said the three attackers wearing rugged [sic]clothes used swords and knives in their attacks, before managing to flee.
http://www.copts-united.com/Copts_United_N/z_English_Site/index_Eng.htm
Silvester, your pictures just proved my point, brave muslim warriors are great at attacking the elderly, especially when they know the local police will not intervene. Trust me they cry like babies when captured. The first time I saw a "real mujahidin" I was disappointed. I thought these were brave Afghan freedom fighters who were holding off the big bad soviets (late 80's, I am old and smarter now) they were punks, and today’s ash and trash jihadi is no better. They are little more than violent children playing with big boy toys. All soldiers want to tell stories about the brave warriors they fought with; you are much more of a hero if your opponent was tough and fearless. I don’t think islam has many professional soldiers just thugs with guns, they are dangerous but mostly look for easy victims. I’d think the average gang banger in any major metropolitan area would show more tactical skill and personally bravery but some of the law enforcement types would no more than I. I get upset when I read about muslim thugs attacking, religious institutions because I know they pick on primarily on ones without security and a large (easier to attack) elderly population. I am all for dialogue but first beat them down; they are much more receptive to dialogue after they have been hurt.
From the AP
"The Interior Ministry identified the attacker as Mahmoud Salah-Eddin Abdel-Raziq and said he suffered from "psychological disturbances.""
Yes, He is Islamic.
Its time for a Crusade to liberate the Christians being oppressed by Muslim rule!!!
Dialogue? Moderate?
Are you serious?? 1,400 years of "communicating", anything new? Ever heard of walking softly, and carrying a BIG stick? Hyenas always attack from behind, and single out the weak. Keep chumming the water, and a big Shark will bite you from behind too. Why all the holy warriors springing up all over? Submission is the perfect form of communal living. "Dialogue" didn't bring down the U.S.S.R., assured destruction did. {Communal living = Communism, and I don't want to drift too much, start thinking "Red Islam"}. Bullies know only one thing, a tougher kid. Furthermore, and for a moment, assume one could have "dialogue" with a submissive. How can ANY answer or compromise, be given credibility when a cardinal rule of "Holy War", as it pertains to their belief, is deceit and duplicity?
If you REALLY think it is possible, I have ocean front property for sale in Yuma and Santa Fe. I'll make you a deal, ok?
Memz (short for Mohammed in Egyptian slang),
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."
Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865)
Alternatively
"Even a fool, if he holds his peace is thought wise; keep your mouth shut and show your good sense." Proverbs 17.28
MSNBC and Fox are already reporting that the assailant (well, there were originally three simultaneous assailants...) was mentally ill. Again with the mental illness diagnosis even before the victims' blood can be wiped up. Definitely not terrorism, definitely not motivated by religion.
It is also worth noting that even after the stabbings, there was a crowd of Muslims surrounding the Coptic church, "clashing" with the Coptics.
It's easy to talk bad about Muslims when you're living on the other side of the chain. Try going through what we go through, and we'll see if its so easy to condemn us.
Most Muslims have nothing to do with terrorism or the like. I have seen the idea that a Muslim who does not actively support terrorism supports it silently. Not true... I live among Muslims, am one, and have been living among them all my life. I have yet to meet someone who supports terrorism.
Let me explain to you people one thing. Unlike you, this war on terror is not something so distant to us. It's happening outside our very own windows, in our own streets, or in the country next to us. While you people pray for the good things in life, we pray to be saved from your armies.
The atmosphere of war is unmistakable. Thank God that where I live is still not attacked by the West, but everyone is wondering when we will be next. We sometimes talk about what we would do if our homes were attacked next. Not only do we have to worry about terrorist attacks, but we have to worry about a full-blown war with the West.
And when we try to relax by switching on the TV or going on the Internet, we see nothing but our faith being bashed everywhere. We know your claims are false, but our voices have become so soft that we can no longer be heard. We cannot even represent our religion in the way it was meant to be, simply because you people will not let us. Even if we try to cry out for peace, that message is brought to sites such as these to be spitted on. Dialogue? I, personally, no longer believe in it. How can we have dialogue with people who will not listen to you?
I don't even care about what atrocities Christians or Jews have done in the past. I don't care about what you think of us. All I can ask is for you people to finally leave us alone and let us live in peace. You think you're the ones whose safety is threatened? It's the other way around. And you blame us for not liking you? Try to live with your weapons pointing towards you all the time, and we'll see how well you'll take it.
enigma,
If your community does not what to be bad mouth, it is important that the more peaceful members of your community start to stand up to the plate, condemm the terrorism, and turn in the terrorists who are doing the terrorism.
Do not be suprised that the Muslim community is being bad mouth, as the saying goes, it takes one rotten apple to spoil the whole bushel.
Copts do celebrate Easter next weekend, but that does not excuse these demented muslims' actions.
The United States should grant assylum for all Copts immediately.
I think enigma is dutifully forgetting whose "religion" has attacked the west. The first attack I really remember was Iran taking our countrymen hostage. Muslims attacked us.
If enigma is afraid of our troops coming to him, then I suggest he and his buddies turn in the "radicals" who condone violence against America. And if enigma is an innocent and he happens to run across our guys, he won't have to worry about losing his head.
If he is that scared of our forces, is he going public to stop the violence? Is he really trying to change his religion? Is he taking the lead to change muslims thinking about infidels?
Enigma, your "War on Terror" is within.
Enigma is either that fake little Afgani girl who wrote a letter to new york times in perfect english about how bad Americans are or some Berkley, self-hating liberal.
Fist of all, "you people"? Do you mean your infidels or you dhimmies? If you think of the West as some organized "you people" instead of a collection of individuals who have different views and interests, you are jihadist. You do not need to stap bombs to yourself to be part of jihad. Supporting and believing in their ideology is sufficient. Just look at your governments and television. All they talk about is how bad the US is, and how Jews are pigs and how Christians are the unbelievers. All you do is spread hate, like a cancer. And when you say, why do you attack us?
What about 9/11 or do you think the Jews did it? What about all the attacks on non-muslims in all continents of the world? What about all your riots, all your calls to violence, all your hate speech? Should we just ignore it.
Do you think when I ride on the subway, I am not fearful of a bearded looking muslim with a bag standing near me screaming Allah Ahbar and blowing himself up? I don't feel sorry for you because your fear is based on your government constantly scaring you that they will be next and uniting you so you can conduct jihad.
Have you ever spoke to all these Muslims you live around about the jihad, about terrorist acts, about your hate for all non-muslims, about awful verses from the Koran? Have you ever criticized anything or are you scared to be killed for such discussions? If not, when you are at fault for your own situation because you support jihad and do not attempt to challenge it? Americans who do not like the Iraq war and think it is a mistake criticize the war instead of sitting around and blaming others. Stop playing your hypocritical blame games and do something about the cancer that Islam and Islamic countries have become and don't blame the victims for speaking out.
You all have it wrong, I can not wait to meet Enigma. We can sit down together for coffee.
Ronin-
Don't forget to offer enig-Mo a croissant.
bigcatgirl13106: You are right. I'm not surprised, what with all that the so-called Muslims have done in this century. All I want is to not be hated because of them. But I guess that's a little too much to ask. Turn in the terrorists? What makes you think I know where they are? If I knew one, do you think I would hesitate for one second?
sheik yer'mami: We would love that, provided that you do not come down here to haunt us with your bullshit media and armies, claiming to stuff democracy down our throats. Let us handle our problems, you handle yours. I mean, you make all these promises of a better life in America to drive our people into your lands. And once they get there, you can't wait to kick them back out. I suppose once we're gone you'll turn again to Hispanics and Blacks, right?
freewoman: I am not dutifully forgetting anything. It wasn't me who drove those planes to your towers. Same thing goes for you, I know it wasn't you who shot and killed Iraqis during their prayers in a mosque. Did you see me blaming you for it? This isn't about who is right and who is wrong. This is about putting a stop to all the madness. Don't expect me to explain the actions of terrorists, and don't expect me to bear their responsibility. I have nothing to do with them, but you seem not to understand that. And no, America has showed that whether you're innocent or not you will get killed or suffer in their hands. And once again, do you think I know where these terrorists are? I don't have the intelligence capabilities of the US. Your president should know, why dont you ask him?
SickBoy: Yep, it is within. My war is to remian a true Muslim and not hate the States for what they have done and continue to do. And that's what I refer to as true Jihad.
mosmike: I knew a post like yours was inevitable. All I did was come up and say I was a Muslim, and you immediately concluded that I support terrorism and I hate all non-Muslims. Nothing short of me converting into another religion will ever convince you. You said it yourself; I have to chnage my religion to make it up to you. Who's playing the blame game? Christians conviniently forget all that they have done in the past and continue to do. You think our mosques and TVs are the ones who spread hate-speech? Just open Fox News or CNN to learn of the new stunts pulled off by "Islamic" terrorists and "Muslim" terrorists and the like. Plus, it's your movies that are hitting the theaters, your cartoons that fill the papers, and your sermons that keep getting published. I have yet to see a hate speech given in a mosque with my own eyes. Do not presume to understand what you have no idea about. You're looking for a hate site? You're in one. And who is really the victim here? I don't see your country getting blown to pieces, or your religion being bashed on the world media, or even your homes blowing up. With the exception of 9/11, you have not suffered anything. And don't expect me to change anything in my religion, I love it the way it is. Not the terrorists manipulation or your hate speech will ever change that. Besides, why don't you put the Bible and Christianity under the same microscope for a change? Why don't you explain the actions of Christians world-wide for a millenium of violence? Jesus said: Or, how can you say to your brother, "Friend, let me take the speck in your eye," when you yourself do not see the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log in your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye (Luke 6:42 = Matt 7:4-5 = Thomas, saying 26)
Ronin: Would love that :)
profitsbeard: Whatever that means...
sheik yer'mami: One more thing; you immediately concluded that the reason I want American armies away is so I can kill and rape non-believers. My best friend is a Hindu, and we get along perfectly. And I supppose you will now say I don't follow my religion properly? Who are you to tell me how to be a Muslim. You are a typical racist hic that's fuelling this war. Anything different than you is immediately evil. Have you even read the Qur'an? I read parts of the Bible so I can understand Christians better. Believe me, you're not so different, not even in the violent parts of your books (that is if you are a Christian). You know nothing of what really happens out here, or what really is going on, so don't bother trying to explain to me how you are going to help the situation.
enigma,
Thank you for your response. The truth of the matter is that you can begin with your local mosque. It begins when the Iman preaches in his own words that are against non-Muslims, to attack them. Did not the Quran warn against having non-Muslims as friends ( Jews and Christians in particular ) ? Maybe not at your local mosque, but at other moques in the Muslim world. That is how terror groups get form. When you see or hear of a terrorist or a group of them, do not be afraid to turn them in.
Also please look at this from the eyes of non-Muslims who live in the West and have to deal with greater security awareness and the garbage that comes from some of the leaders from the Muslim world, from countries that are ruled by Muslim leaders. The stuff that comes from these leaders if not down right scarry is simply offensive.
Also look at this from a historic perspective. If the Muslim faith was not spread thru military actions during the first few centuries that it was around; and the Christian churches, the ones in the Holy Land were left alone, the Christian West would not have had to go to war via the crusades. The truth is, it was the aggression war of the Muslims during those first centuries of Islam that brought on the crusades. The crusades like it or not, were a defensive response.
Please also examine the teachings presented in the Quran and other Muslim holy books before you say anything about Christians and the Holy Bible. Put a bright light on your holy books before you say anything harsh on the Christian Bible and Christianity. You would be shocked in what your holy books have to say on a number of things. Also by the way, this website is an excellent website which covers the issue of jihad going on in the world and for excellent discussion.
But please look at what is going on from the eyes of westerners.
Enigma,
Please refrain from projecting ones views of supremecy on another. I.E. lumping the entire non-Islamic faiths, either traditional, Agnostic, or Athiest, into one giant melting pot. All races, ethnicities, and creeds worship in all traditional religions. This is not the forum to discuss the self lobbied minority status of the ethnic classification of "Hispanics". I believe you are attempting to spiritually extort others who also confuse skin color with race.
Referencing a book, written and compiled over the millenia, is noble. However, the two primary religions you have cited, Judaism and Christianity, have undergone several reformations over the years. First, it is my understanding that Judaism, in or around the Tenth Century A.D., "reformed" in an attempt to show the similarities, or parallels, between Islam and Judaism. Christianity began its codification around 300 A.D., and yes, different sects, or creeds, developed; some more aggressive than others, but, both Judaism and Christianity, for the most part, redefined "eye for an eye" et al etc. Second, Both Christianity and Judaism have attempted to have multi-lateral discussions and "dialogues" with your Faith. Lumping all into one category or another is what has been written, and worshipped, in your religion. You are intelligent enough to know this, lies do not become us. Personally, I think it is time to remove the "blind man" who has given his flock to God, a new "blind" shepherd is needed to nurse the diseased sheep back to a healthy coexistance with other flocks of faithful before giving them back to God. Just because Mohammed spoke of the 4 marks of a hypocrit, does not mean to look solely at your definition of an "Unbeliever" singularly. A hypocrit can also be found amongst the Islamic flock also. I also see a similarity between Sun Tzu tactics and Muslim dogma. You know, as well as I, there are two parts to an army; operational and logistical. Even though a Muslim may NOT support Holy War, as it is being practiced today, doesn't mean the non-supportive Muslim is not contributing to at least the logistical aspect of the "war". Re: Five Pillars. Once an army figures out how to create their own Cohorts, it can become very large in a small amount of time. Control the information, control the mass.
I may be the lone wolf when I say this, I do not believe some, throughout the world, can survive in a democratic society. A few can get along with a little democracy, others even more, but the vast majority, to include some in the United States, have lost this ability and desire a "Mommy State" because they are WEAK. There is a definite geo-political "war" going on, and I believe the perfect form of communal living e.g. Islam as it has been practiced for over a thousand years, is attempting to capitalize on the "poor of spirit" throughout the known world. ...but then again, you can see this also, yes? I could be wrong. I am just some non-descript fingers slapping a keyboard, throwing electrons on everyones screens.
Do you want your children, and / or grandchildren fighting too? I don't. Nor do I want mine.
"We cannot even represent our religion in the way it was meant to be, simply because you people will not let us. Even if we try to cry out for peace, that message is brought to sites such as these to be spitted on. "
enigma, this is pure bullshit, priests and other religious people have DIED for their peaceful values. I have yet to see one ("moderate") muslim die for peace.
Could it be you are all a bunch of cowards?
Secondly, don't lecture us on the bullshits "boo hoo, we are criticized for what Bin Laden says".
Get over it, the germans are associated with Hitler, the italians with mafia etc etc, it's STANDING up and ACTING that make people change their minds about your "umma".
But as I wrote earlier, you are all a bunch of cowards to begin with.
And about your say "we don't know terrorists and their acts". AGAIN it's a lie. When your buddies blew up a hotel in Sharm el sheik the taxi drivers in town KNEW it and refused to drive there.
I guess other "moderate" muslim minding their own businesses.
sheik yer'mami: If you identify yourself as our enemy, then why don't you enlist in the army and come down here? If you hate us so much, and believe that we really are trying to kill you, why don't you stand up for what you believe in and help your heroes? It's very easy to talk from afar. We are trying to kill you? Whose countries are being invaded? Who has more casualties in this war? Who lied to their country and went and invaded another nation? In fact, who trained your enemies to begin with? Who armed them? By the way, we're called Muslims and not Mohammedans. Compare our posts; who's the real terrorist here? I am a Muhammedan slave of Allah? You're damn right I am, a proud one. If that is the difference between you and me, then I am proud of it.
bigcatgirl13106:
I appreciate your response. However, the Crusades was not a defensive action. Andalus survived for 800 years, having Muslims, Christians and Jews living peacefully. It was there that philosophy and science flourished. When the Crusaders conquered Andalus, they did not leave a single Muslim alive. All their places of worship was destroyed. Even the Jews were either converted or slain. In fact, many records of Jews exist which claim that they ran away from the Christian controlled Andalus to live under Muslim rule once again, where they were tolerated. Another example is when the Christians conquered Jerusalem from the Muslims.
They killed every single Muslim man, woman and child. However, when Saladin conquered Jerusalem back, he let every single Christian go back to Christian lands. More examples? There are many churches, some dating as far back as being counted among the first, that have survived in Turkey, Syria and Iraq. I have seen some with my own eyes. If Muslims were indeed trying to destroy them, why do they still exist?
"Did not the Quran warn against having non-Muslims as friends ( Jews and Christians in particular ) ? "
Yes, when we are at war with them. However, the Quran also orders us to live in peace with them. If you want proof, I will post it.
" Maybe not at your local mosque, but at other moques in the Muslim world. That is how terror groups get form. When you see or hear of a terrorist or a group of them, do not be afraid to turn them in."
I am not a religious leader or someone with authority. I cannot possibly watch every single mosque out there. Also, you seem not get a point here: I do not know of any terrorists. I don't have terrorist friends that I am hiding. Nor do I have any contact with them whatsoever. If I knew one, believe me I would report him/her. But I don't. Terrorists do not live and show themselves to normal Muslims, because they know we would turn them in in a second for betraying Islam.
"Also please look at this from the eyes of non-Muslims who live in the West "
I am not blaming the general public of the West, nor do I hate them. I understand the pain that people went through during 9/11, or any other terrorist attack. Like I said before, I have friends from many cultural backgrounds. I work in an American company, for crying out loud. It isn't people or beliefs that I blame, its the leaders. However, it saddens me when good and intelligent people are led to believe that we pose them a threat, to such a level that a mass extermination of Muslims is comforting. The same goes for people here. That is what I am trying to change.
"Please also examine the teachings presented in the Quran and other Muslim holy books "
I did. I never said I didn't. I know what my books says about war. But I also observed the same principals in the Bible. That was all. See how bad you felt when I said that the Bible is also guilty of similar passages that are found in the Qur'an? Try going through that every single day.
"this website is an excellent website which covers the issue of jihad "
Is that so? You obviously missed an article which was written by Robert Spencer, explaining that a peaceful Muslim does not exist. It's called "The Myth of a Moderate Muslim". Mr Spencer's original goal was to highlight the threat of a radical jihadist regime. That's fine by me, and I support him in that. But his articles go much further than that, claiming that all Muslims are to blame.
Believe me, I am trying to see this from a Westerner's perspective. But I urge you to do the same. Please try to understand one thing; we are not trying to kill you. Yes, there are regimes out there whose goals and methods are oppresive, and yes they do call themselves Muslims. However, that does not mean that Muslims in general are. It is the only way to start to really combat terrorism. We are willing to do our part, in recognizing the danger that jihad may pose, in educating the general public about it's misuse, and to combat terrorism. But people like sheik yer'mami make it an impossible task.
SickBoy:
"Please refrain from projecting ones views of supremecy on another"
When did I do that?
Personally, I do not support terrorism. When I say that, I don't support it financially, physically, or even emotionally. Why do you keep insisting that I do? I am telling you I don't. If my support for terrorism is me being Muslim, though I don't see how, then it is an unintentional consequence. Yes, they identify themselves as Muslims and so do I. But that doesn't mean that the two are the same.
Please understand; it is not so hard to fool a Muslim who lives in poverty and is uneducated. They are brought up to follow Islam to it's core. They are taught that Imams know best and are to be revered (completely against Islamic belief). So, when an Imam who is recruiting for Al-Qaeda comes upto them and tells them that they will go to hell if they dont help, thats what they do. They are already fed with all kinds of bullshit about how Unbelievers deserve to die and stuff like that. Even rich and educated members of Al-Qaeda fall victim to such brainwashing. It is a disease that is spreading in our religion, and we are trying to fight it by educating those around us and by standing up for the true Islam. However, our job is becoming near to impossible when they log into the internet and find sites such as these. It is easy to hate someone who hates you back and wants to kill you. Fear is the first step to calling someone evil.
I never said that this wasn't our fault. It is, we have let madmen and tyrants run lose in our society. We never tried to show the world what Islam really is. We never addressed the potentially dangerous parts of the Qur'an and tried to educate our people on the right use and meaning of those passages. Our leaders have failed us countless times by concentrating on making money rather than cleaning this mess up. Yes, we are at fault. But so is the West, for fuelling their rage and continuing to do so. First, it was their support for and silence for Israel's humanity crimes. Then it was books and sites and movies. Then it was conquests, then it was cartoons. And so it goes, on and on...
I do not want anyone to fight in a war. Not my kids, not yours. But me wanting to do so is not enough. This is a two-way street, it requires efforts from both sides. Convince us that you will leave us in peace, and we will do the same.
poisonr:
We are the cowards? Probably, because we are the ones without weapons, without money, outnumbered and betrayed all the time. Not only do we get hit by those that have come to "save us from tyrants", but also from terrorists. Also, our religion is no longer even respected. Half the globe wants us dead. It is quite a task to remain brave the fave of all this.
"priests and other religious people have DIED for their peaceful values"
Like whom?
"I have yet to see one ("moderate") muslim die for peace."
You don't give a shit why a Muslim would die, so long as he does. So don't lecture me about peaceful values.
"Get over it, the germans are associated with Hitler, the italians with mafia etc etc"
Then don't blame those that hate the West for what your governments have done. Also, don't blame people for hating Jews in general because of Israeli actions against Palestinians.
"And about your say "we don't know terrorists and their acts". AGAIN it's a lie. "
Don't be stupid. Why would I lie to you? And I didn't say "we didnt know", I said "I didnt know". And that's because a lot of people have asked me to turn in terrorists. I never said nobody knew terrorists. I'm sure there are people who do. Blame them, not me.
Enigma
Your post is quite concise and to the point I applaud your courage.
However, you are missing one big issue and that is Oil.
I am sure that if the Middle East did not contain oil , we would not have the slightest interest in it.
The bottom line is YOU have it , and we want it.
So until we develop a substitute along the lines of what Hugh has suggested, we are pretty much going to be at your door.
I am joking of course, but I think you suffer the same problem as we do.
when we elect our Govenrment they don't always do what we ask, and looking back through history the one thing that governments seek is resources.
It is unfortunate that we in the west need oil as much as we do, but what is worse is that our government is prepared to go to great lengths to get it (via our oil companies).
I found your post refreshing, and your point regarding dialogue is important, BUT it is not you and I who are engaged in the dialogue it is our governments.
They do not speak on the same terms as we do, they speak the language of, Resouces (Oil, etc), Power (Military), and Idealogy (Relgion).
Your religion, now that we have had time to study it,Note: Before 9/11 nobody cared about the contents of the Qu'ran, so it may have been a good thing in that we have started looking into your culture, but I digress
It is our perception that your religion, is organised by men, who require as part of the rules, the subjugation of woman, the ostercising of non-believers, and other implementations of its idealogy which go against our view of human rights,
We in the west have our own version of this and these are called Christianity, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, Protestants etc
We in the west are hypocrites, but we try not to be.
On the other hand, our governments are filled with them, plus they're liars.
They deceive us on a constant basis and we have to dig very deep to find out what they have been up to before we can stop them
sometimes we are successful somtimes not.
Usually they have managed to anger some culture, before we have made the discovery.
But it should be evident that 9/11 did not happen because some peson from New York insulted islam.
Isreal was not set up by some person from London working on a market stall.
No, this was all done from the seat of government, and did we get to vote on it.
Well NO !
Please give us time, we shall correct our failings as we hope you will correct yours.
"We are the cowards? Probably, because we are the ones without weapons, without money, outnumbered and betrayed all the time."
well that's a statement, you are fooling us to believe the "moderate" muslims are the majority and the bad guys are a small minority, thanks for admitting it's the other way around, the bad seeds outnumber greatly the good ones.
Where is the proud in defining yourself muslims where the MAJORITY of followers are evil-oriented people?
"Not only do we get hit by those that have come to "save us from tyrants", but also from terrorists. "
When in WW2 USA came to free italy from our elected tyrant they dropped some bombs and probably had some casualties. Yet no one in italy whines that "we got hit". The greatest goal is remove dictatorship, if you missed that point, the rest was up to you muslim people, but as always you prefer to kill each other rather than building up something positive.
"Also, our religion is no longer even respected. Half the globe wants us dead."
ask yourself why, as i told you, even the germans for quite some years had to bear the label "nazi" and seen as cold-hearted people with no morals. They managed to get out of that but they APOLOGIZED, MADE AMEND WITH PAST etc etc.
All steps that you muslims don't even take into consideration. Drop your self importance as umma, stop whining about your delusional greatness that was built in the past over murder and stealing and submitting. Is that something to be proud about? Yet all you want to do is get back to the caliphate to submit other populations and do whatever your book allows you.
"Like whom?"
are you stupid or what? don't you read in your islamic press about all the priests/religious people KILLED everyday in muslim countries? or the normal non-muslim people forced to live in muslim lands that pray in silence?
if they were COWARDS like yourself it would be enough to convert to your cult and they would be FREE MEN.
That means risking your life for your beliefs, also giving your life for your beliefs.
I am not suprised you don't even know what it means.
"You don't give a shit why a Muslim would die, so long as he does. So don't lecture me about peaceful values."
The only martyr you admire is people blowing themselves up in jewish fast-foods.
As i said you lack the basic brain capacity to understand a man risking his life for his values (positive values).
"Then don't blame those that hate the West for what your governments have done. Also, don't blame people for hating Jews in general because of Israeli actions against Palestinians. "
stupid ass, it was you to whine (muslim sport n.1) about the world hating you, the difference is that everyday muslim give REASONS to be hated, while the germans tried to become better people.
"Don't be stupid. Why would I lie to you? "
TAQQIA or however it's spelled.
"I am sure that if the Middle East did not contain oil , we would not have the slightest interest in it."
let's stop this stupid non-sense.
Muslim countries used to murder a great deal and create conflict even 1400 years ago and for all the centuries where OIL wasn't an issue. OIL came to the table 100 years ago or less. What's the muslim excuse for the rest 1300 years?
Muslim favourite sport n.2: DISTORTING HYSTORY
"Andalus survived for 800 years, having Muslims, Christians and Jews living peacefully. "
FALSE. They lived so peacefully that the christians and NON-muslims all run in the north of spain.
Still from the destorted muslims history books
"More examples? There are many churches, some dating as far back as being counted among the first, that have survived in Turkey, Syria and Iraq. I have seen some with my own eyes. If Muslims were indeed trying to destroy them, why do they still exist? "
actually muslims are destroying slowing churches day by day as we speak, former yugoslavia, turkey etc.
They are doing it slowly so they can keep playing this favourite sport of them in the next decades.
What will you destroy when there won't be anymore churches around?
TAQQUIA ALERT:
"Yes, when we are at war with them. However, the Quran also orders us to live in peace with them. If you want proof, I will post it."
the umma is ALWAYS in fight with the non-muslims, when they are a minority they keep silent until they reach a good number.
It happened in Lebanon, former yugoslavia etc.
"I did. I never said I didn't. I know what my books says about war. But I also observed the same principals in the Bible. That was all. See how bad you felt when I said that the Bible is also guilty of similar passages that are found in the Qur'an? "
the bible doesn't say that the world must be christian, the bible doesn't consider other religion as INFERIOR, the bible doesn't kill apostates, the bible doesn't say that the woman has got half a brain of a man.
All "details" that you missed.
And no christian is offended by the harsh passages in the bible because no christian follows the bible literally.
Another difference that you IGNORE of the religions you claim to know.
Enigma,
"your lands. And once they get there, you can't wait to kick them back out. I suppose once we're gone you'll turn again to Hispanics and Blacks, right?
"
...and numerous references to "...you people..."
Zakah, is the unsuspecting "donation" to the "poor". From one aspect, it is like many other religious responsibilities we share. However, as you so honestly
pointed out many live in "poverty", and thus are like so many "poor" people, easily susceptible to "influence" due to "poor" education etc, therefore creating
the mindless automaton, not questioning one "more skilled" in Islam i.e. creating a Cohort. This Zakah, given out of honor and duty, can be "allocated"
for the "Poor {automaton}". Don't worry, the same garbage happened when giving "donations to the 'Boys in the Band'" during I.R.A. activity, and probably
a whole host of others. Re: Defacto Logistical Support for "terror".
You also put forth a convincing argument regarding looking up to Imam etc as the spiritual shepherd. However, if Islam does not have any hierarchical structure.
I could be wrong, but it's {Faith etc} between "you" and God. This contrasts with, say Roman Catholicism e.g Pope, Cardinals, Arch Bishops etc etc.
Respectfully, by your prose, I suspect you are deeply hurt by what you see going on, and are taking a path of least resistance by inferring "you people"..."your
armies"..."...{fill in the blank}...". As if your situation is hopeless i.e. "the Western armies are coming, no matter what I say or do, therefore the
teachings within Islam are correct, and I will begin to support my bretheren in their physical combat..." A self fulfilling prophecy of sorts. An animal
will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance, whether to a water source or travelling from point A to point B. The success is in succeeding at what is
difficult and challenging. You know this, as well as I. Do not give up on the "struggle" to take an introspective assessment, but in the end YOU choose
whom YOU choose to be. Peer pressure is a son of a gun, I know. It is not enough to be right...
the struggle is within, not throughout. Remove emotion and the facts will come to light. American company? Engineering, technology, or Commodities?
...and yes,sciences were one of the contributions occular surgeries and electroplating to name two.
test
enigma sez:
"... I am a Muhammedan slave of Allah? You're damn right I am, a proud one..."
Thank you for confirming everything I accused you of in my (deleted) post. (Robert is almighty on this website, but also merciful & compassionate...)
enigma sez:
"... the Crusades was not a defensive action..."
Why was the holy land, and all of north-Africa, and Spain, and Sicily, and parts of Greece, the land of Jews and Christians, constantly raided & finally conquered by the Musulman?
Why did the Mohammedans raid, slaughter & kidnap the pilgrims when they wanted to worship in THEIR holy land? That, my Mohammedan defender of the cult, was the reason for the crusades.
"...Andalus survived for 800 years, having Muslims, Christians and Jews living peacefully. It was there that philosophy and science flourished. When the Crusaders conquered Andalus, they did not leave a single Muslim alive. All their places of worship was destroyed... "
Mohammedan BS-propaganda.
Everyone was subjected to dhimitude and killed for the slightest transgression against Mohammedan rule. Science and philosophy was 'tolerated' and practiced by Jews & Christians, some who converted to Islam.
Nothing, nothing at all, nothing other than Islam was invented by Arabs. Thanx but no thanx...
The Alhambra is still standing, is it not?
What was destroyed? The Moors (finally) had to pack up, just as they will have to pack up and leave the lands of the (civilized) infidels within the next decade.
The rest of your drivel is refuted in Robert Spencers book "The Politically Incorrect Guide To Islam & The Crusades..."
Read it and educate yourself.
I don't like 'Muslims', I prefer to call you what you are.
You worship Mohammed, a bandit, a thief, a caravan-raider, a rapist, a pedophile, a torturer and a slave-master. You follow Mohammed, so you are a 'proud Mohammedan...'
Live with it. Try not to die for it...
But then again, your cult commands you to 'slay and be slain in the name of Allah...'
So you really don't have much of a choice, do you?
Peter:
"Your post is quite concise and to the point I applaud your courage."
Thanks :)
"However, you are missing one big issue and that is Oil."
Whatever agenda the States might have in Iraq or anywhere else is something that I cannot say for sure. Yes, it may be oil. It may be investments for Bush or Dick Cheney companies (like Haliburton). It may be creating needs to sell weapons. It may be that Saddam has been a bad-ass and did deserve what he got. Who knows? That's something for governments to handle. As the people, we do not yet have enough power (sad as it is) to fight that. Whatever American wanted to do in Iraq, the bottom line is that they are there. Whatever it was that Bin Laden wanted to do, he has killed numerous people and we the Muslims have done nothing to stop it. Mistakes have been made, and there is no way to change that. All we can do is to not repeat them. And it is really easy to repeat mistakes if we hate each other. That's what I am trying to change.
"I found your post refreshing, and your point regarding dialogue is important, BUT it is not you and I who are engaged in the dialogue it is our governments."
But it is the people who force governments to make decisions. As pointless as it may seem, we need to push governments to do what we want them to do. I can't remember who it was, I think it was David Hume, who said that "the public has the right to fight and make war on the government if the government no longer does what is good for the people" or something like that. Of course, that is a bit of the extreme, but educating ourselves about each other and changing the general viewpoint of the people on both sides is the only way to start. We do have people here who hate the West. And before anyone asks me to report them, I cannot report someone for having views. They are entitled to their opinion, same as everyone else. But I do sit and argue with them for hours, saying that its not the people but the government.
"It is our perception that your religion, is organised by men, who require as part of the..."
Of course you do, it is only natural since you do not follow our religion. Obviously, we believe that it was divine revelation. But theology is different, and this isn't the place to discuss it. We also believe Christianity was man-made. In any case, it does not require us to kill and supress others. Yes, war is part of the religion, but only in self-defense. And once the other side shows no aggression, we are to cease our fight. I can bring a lot of verses to prove that. Some people may see war as evil. But, Islam teaches us to make war to defend ourselves. Islam does not want us to be weak and naive and hope that an aggressing enemy goes away. That's all. There are points in history where Islamic rulers have used religion to push for war. But that is history, and corrupt rulers will always be there. Do not judge Islam based on the actions of a few.
"We in the west are hypocrites, but we try not to be. "
We have the same problem. We have many Imams in the Muslim world who love to bash Christians, forgetting what we have done in the past as well. Education, and remaining objective, are the only weapons to fight that.
"Please give us time, we shall correct our failings as we hope you will correct yours."
It really is a comfor to hear that. We will correct ours as well, and let's hope history finally stops repeating itself.
poisonr:
Sure did spend a lot of time replying to my post.
"you are fooling us to believe the "moderate" muslims are the majority and the bad guys are a small minority, thanks for admitting it's the other way around, the bad seeds outnumber greatly the good ones."
Huh? How did you reach that? Don't distort my words.
"When in WW2 USA came to free italy from our elected tyrant they dropped some bombs and probably had some casualties."
Where would they wine back then? Technology wasn's as advanced as it was back then. Do you see our "wining" on television? What makes you think a Western media would cover our suffering?
"They managed to get out of that but they APOLOGIZED, MADE AMEND WITH PAST etc etc."
Yes, and they are still paying compensation to Israel. I wonder if that was what Israel wanted in the first place, money... Let Israel pay compensation to Palestine, and the States to Iraq, and I will personally get on a minaret and scream out "I'm sorry, USA" myself. Hell, I'll even pay a tax to the States for the rest of my life. But it's easy for me to make that claim, since neither Israel nor America will ever admit to what they did and pay compensation.
"Drop your self importance as umma, stop whining about your delusional greatness that was built in the past over murder and stealing and submitting. Is that something to be proud about? Yet all you want to do is get back to the caliphate to submit other populations and do whatever your book allows you."
The same goes for you. You shouldn't be so proud of a nation which was built by exterminating the natives in them, and that is one out of many. Please, if we are to bring past aggressions my list against the west would never end, so don't start.
Also, who is invading nations here? America has gotten Afghanistan and Iraq and are now looking to Iran. What have the Muslims gained? Have we even tried to conquer America? Sure, there was 9/11 although that leading to conquest seems quite fantastic. Oh yeah, and Israel is still after Palestine. Basically, the one who seems to have the most imperiliastic agenda here seems to be uhhh... the West!
"don't you read in your islamic press about all the priests/religious people KILLED everyday in muslim countries?"
Along with Muslims, but that's hardly a sacrifice. If it is, then Muslims die as well. A guy killing another is not a selfless sacrifice, its murder. So stop trying to make their deaths seem like an ok thing to do. You're only justifying terrorists.
"if they were COWARDS like yourself it would be enough to convert to your cult and they would be FREE MEN."
No, because then they would have the West to worry about. Believe me, nobody is safe in those countries, and we have you to thank for that along with the idiots who rule our nations.
"The only martyr you admire is people blowing themselves up in jewish fast-foods."
As opposed to a bomb dropped out of a B-52 high in the sky? I never admire terrorists, nor do I support them. How many times do I have to repeat that? Get your brian functions working properly and read what I wrote before you talk about mine, you idiot.
"stupid ass, it was you to whine (muslim sport n.1) about the world hating you, the difference is that everyday muslim give REASONS to be hated, while the germans tried to become better people."
That didn't stop you from labelling them as "Nazis". You are a racist pig, and you just admitted it. Tell me then, why should I apologise for what I did not do when I know it won't change a damn thing? You cannot reason with someone like you, who only hates those different than you and wants to see their blood spilled. You're fighting the terrorists? You're no better than them!
"TAQQIA or however it's spelled."
Does this look like a war zone to you? That is allowed when an enemy captures a Muslim soldier. At that point, you're supposed to lie to them. I don't see why you think that is evil. If I was captured by an enemy, I would lie rather then give important information to the enemy. But I guess it's easy to be an idealist when you have nothing harming you.
"What's the muslim excuse for the rest 1300 years?"
What was yours? For the two World Wars, the Burning times, the crusades?
"Muslim favourite sport n.2: DISTORTING HYSTORY"
That would have been fine, if we had written it. History is written by those in power. Who was and still is in power?
"actually muslims are destroying slowing churches day by day as we speak, former yugoslavia, turkey etc."
Actually, they are not. Stop coming up with ridiculious conspiracies. Turkey is a secular nation with a Christian population (a minority, but present neverhteless). Why would they destroy churches? There is a mosque, a church and a synagogue side-by-side in the heart of Istanbul. You have a lot to learn from them. If you talk about terrorists doing it, then yeah. And there's a reason for that, its because they are TERRORISTS! That's what they do, destroy. Bring me proof that there is a government sponsored destruction of churches in Turkey, and I will shut up.
"the umma is ALWAYS in fight with the non-muslims, when they are a minority they keep silent until they reach a good number."
Always? I live in a Muslim country. I have run into lots of Christians, Jews, Atheists, Neo-Pagans, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhis, and a lot of others I can't remember. My best friend is a Hindu. In a nation, who is supposedly at war with non-Muslims, and with a Muslim majority, it would only be natural for them to be deported or killed. But they are not. Why?
"the bible doesn't say that the world must be christian, the bible doesn't consider other religion as INFERIOR, the bible doesn't kill apostates, the bible doesn't say that the woman has got half a brain of a man."
Bullshit! Any religion other than Christianity is inspired by Satan, therefore Satanic. I have seen countless fundemantalists label Islam or anything else as Satanic based on those requirements. And yes, brutal passages exist in the Bible. You don't want to see it? Fine, I'll stick it here for all to see:
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)
"... Little by little I will drive them out from before you, until you have increased and possess the land (Ex 23:23-33; see also Ex 32:25-29, where the sin of making the golden calf by the Israelites leads to the command: "Each of you kill your brother, your friend, and your neighbor"). "
"But as for the towns of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. You shall annihilate them - the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites ... - just as the Lord your God has commanded (Deut 20:16-17; see also Deut 7:2-16). "
"O daughter Babylon, you devastator!
Happy shall they be who pay you back
what you have done to us!
Happy shall they be who take your little ones
and dash them against the rock!
(Psalms 137:8-9)."
What do you call all that if not violent and barbaric? The difference is that I admit that such passages exist in the Qur'an and I can deal with it. You won't even admit it.
"And no christian is offended by the harsh passages in the bible because no christian follows the bible literally."
Then why did George Bush call his war on Iraq a "crusade"? Wearing a tie and procaliming to the world that the destruction is in the name of liberty does not change anything.
SickBoy:
When I say "you people" I don't mean any racist comment. Sorry if it seemed that way.
" This Zakah, given out of honor and duty, can be "allocated"
for the "Poor {automaton}". Don't worry, the same garbage happened when giving "donations to the 'Boys in the Band'" during I.R.A. activity, and probably
a whole host of others. Re: Defacto Logistical Support for "terror"."
Look, I give charity. And if somehow that charity ends up in the hands of terrorists, then what am I supposed to do? Not help the poor? How can I differentiate between a true charity and a terrorist fund? That's why we have government regulations. But beyond following those, there is nothing I can do to stop money flow into terrorists. Not giving charity is not an option, as it is required.
"However, if Islam does not have any hierarchical structure."
It doesn't. But that's not what others are taught. Religion is between a Muslim and God, and imams are supposed to lead in prayer. Issuing of fatwas and religious rulings are done by a scholarly council. However, like I said, it is quite easy to fool people, especially if you brainwash them during their growth.
"the Western armies are coming, no matter what I say or do, therefore the
teachings within Islam are correct, and I will begin to support my bretheren in their physical combat..." A self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
I never said anything like that. Please do not assume things.
"Do not give up on the "struggle" to take an introspective assessment, but in the end YOU choose
whom YOU choose to be."
True. But the thing you will not realize is that terrorists don't walk the streets out here. They are as hidden and coercive as they are anywhere else. You think there is some guy standing in the middle of the raod, screaming "Bin Laden needs you!". Believe me, it isnt like that. From what I know, there was an al-Qaeda recruitment thing going on in a remote place of this country during religious classes in some mosque. But that has been shut down and the people running it are in jail. Other than that, I have never heard of anything like it again.
"the struggle is within, not throughout. Remove emotion and the facts will come to light. "
Good advise. I advise the same on most of the people out here as well.
sheik yer'mami:
Once again, you have proven to be nothing more than a racist pig who doesnt know much.
"Thank you for confirming everything I accused you of in my (deleted) post. "
I only admitted to being a Muslim. If that automatically "confirms" to you everything else, than that's fine by me. I don't really associate myself with idiots anyway.
"Why was the holy land, and all of north-Africa, and Spain, and Sicily, and parts of Greece, the land of Jews and Christians, constantly raided & finally conquered by the Musulman? "
Why was the Muslim caravans constantly raided by Christians, during their time of rule? Why was Andalus destroyed by Christians, when Christians there actually led a peaceful coexistance with everybody else? And if we did indeed conquer "the land of Jews and Christians" why does Europe still stand? Why did the British conquer Sudan, India and parts of the Middle East? Why did America run a slave trade out of Aftrica?
"Everyone was subjected to dhimitude and killed for the slightest transgression against Mohammedan rule. Science and philosophy was 'tolerated' and practiced by Jews & Christians, some who converted to Islam.
Nothing, nothing at all, nothing other than Islam was invented by Arabs. Thanx but no thanx..."
Really? Navigation, for one, was developed by the Arabs. Arabs had a significant role in Astronomy (Ulugh Bey), while the Church was prosecuting Galileo for blaspheming. Andalus had a role to play in the establishment of the University. And you said so yourself, Jews and Christians did exist in Andalus. If they were subjected to forced conversion, how come that they were "tolerated" at the same time. Also, if you mean that they were subject to taxes because they were not Muslims, then let me inform you of one more thing: The reason for that is that they do not have to go to war to defend the country. Their tax is to support the army, while themselves not getting in harm's way. Unlike Muslim citizens, who are forced to fight for their nation, non-Muslims do not have to. As a result, they pay tax instead. But I guess that's one thing that's usually kept in the dark. And yeah, if there was a rebellion, it would obviously be fought off. After all, insurgents in Iraq are also called rebels, and you have no problem with killing them for going against American rule. Stop being such a hypocrite and see things the way they are.
"The Alhambra is still standing, is it not? "
Yes, and so is many churches in the Middle East. So don't accuse us of destroying Christian churches in Muslim lands if you will not accept the same.
"Read it and educate yourself. "
Really? Robert Spencer really said that? Oh my God, I have been wrong all this time!! He has one book, hardly a proof, defending the Crusades. I have seen millions, who say otherwise. Maybe you should spend some time educating yourself instead of reading only what you agree with, if you read at all...
"I don't like 'Muslims', I prefer to call you what you are. "
That's fine, you only prove that you are indeed a racist pig.
"Live with it. Try not to die for it..."
I will, don't you worry your little brain about that.
Peter:
"Your post is quite concise and to the point I applaud your courage."
Thanks :)
"However, you are missing one big issue and that is Oil."
Whatever agenda the States might have in Iraq or anywhere else is something that I cannot say for sure. Yes, it may be oil. It may be investments for Bush or Dick Cheney companies (like Haliburton). It may be creating needs to sell weapons. It may be that Saddam has been a bad-ass and did deserve what he got. Who knows? That's something for governments to handle. As the people, we do not yet have enough power (sad as it is) to fight that. Whatever American wanted to do in Iraq, the bottom line is that they are there. Whatever it was that Bin Laden wanted to do, he has killed numerous people and we the Muslims have done nothing to stop it. Mistakes have been made, and there is no way to change that. All we can do is to not repeat them. And it is really easy to repeat mistakes if we hate each other. That's what I am trying to change.
"I found your post refreshing, and your point regarding dialogue is important, BUT it is not you and I who are engaged in the dialogue it is our governments."
But it is the people who force governments to make decisions. As pointless as it may seem, we need to push governments to do what we want them to do. I can't remember who it was, I think it was David Hume, who said that "the public has the right to fight and make war on the government if the government no longer does what is good for the people" or something like that. Of course, that is a bit of the extreme, but educating ourselves about each other and changing the general viewpoint of the people on both sides is the only way to start. We do have people here who hate the West. And before anyone asks me to report them, I cannot report someone for having views. They are entitled to their opinion, same as everyone else. But I do sit and argue with them for hours, saying that its not the people but the government.
"It is our perception that your religion, is organised by men, who require as part of the..."
Of course you do, it is only natural since you do not follow our religion. Obviously, we believe that it was divine revelation. But theology is different, and this isn't the place to discuss it. We also believe Christianity was man-made. In any case, it does not require us to kill and supress others. Yes, war is part of the religion, but only in self-defense. And once the other side shows no aggression, we are to cease our fight. I can bring a lot of verses to prove that. Some people may see war as evil. But, Islam teaches us to make war to defend ourselves. Islam does not want us to be weak and naive and hope that an aggressing enemy goes away. That's all. There are points in history where Islamic rulers have used religion to push for war. But that is history, and corrupt rulers will always be there. Do not judge Islam based on the actions of a few.
"We in the west are hypocrites, but we try not to be. "
We have the same problem. We have many Imams in the Muslim world who love to bash Christians, forgetting what we have done in the past as well. Education, and remaining objective, are the only weapons to fight that.
"Please give us time, we shall correct our failings as we hope you will correct yours."
It really is a comfor to hear that. We will correct ours as well, and let's hope history finally stops repeating itself.
poisonr:
Sure did spend a lot of time replying to my post.
"you are fooling us to believe the "moderate" muslims are the majority and the bad guys are a small minority, thanks for admitting it's the other way around, the bad seeds outnumber greatly the good ones."
Huh? How did you reach that? Don't distort my words.
"When in WW2 USA came to free italy from our elected tyrant they dropped some bombs and probably had some casualties."
Where would they wine back then? Technology wasn's as advanced as it was back then. Do you see our "wining" on television? What makes you think a Western media would cover our suffering?
"They managed to get out of that but they APOLOGIZED, MADE AMEND WITH PAST etc etc."
Yes, and they are still paying compensation to Israel. I wonder if that was what Israel wanted in the first place, money... Let Israel pay compensation to Palestine, and the States to Iraq, and I will personally get on a minaret and scream out "I'm sorry, USA" myself. Hell, I'll even pay a tax to the States for the rest of my life. But it's easy for me to make that claim, since neither Israel nor America will ever admit to what they did and pay compensation.
"Drop your self importance as umma, stop whining about your delusional greatness that was built in the past over murder and stealing and submitting. Is that something to be proud about? Yet all you want to do is get back to the caliphate to submit other populations and do whatever your book allows you."
The same goes for you. You shouldn't be so proud of a nation which was built by exterminating the natives in them, and that is one out of many. Please, if we are to bring past aggressions my list against the west would never end, so don't start.
Also, who is invading nations here? America has gotten Afghanistan and Iraq and are now looking to Iran. What have the Muslims gained? Have we even tried to conquer America? Sure, there was 9/11 although that leading to conquest seems quite fantastic. Oh yeah, and Israel is still after Palestine. Basically, the one who seems to have the most imperiliastic agenda here seems to be uhhh... the West!
"don't you read in your islamic press about all the priests/religious people KILLED everyday in muslim countries?"
Along with Muslims, but that's hardly a sacrifice. If it is, then Muslims die as well. A guy killing another is not a selfless sacrifice, its murder. So stop trying to make their deaths seem like an ok thing to do. You're only justifying terrorists.
"if they were COWARDS like yourself it would be enough to convert to your cult and they would be FREE MEN."
No, because then they would have the West to worry about. Believe me, nobody is safe in those countries, and we have you to thank for that along with the idiots who rule our nations.
"The only martyr you admire is people blowing themselves up in jewish fast-foods."
As opposed to a bomb dropped out of a B-52 high in the sky? I never admire terrorists, nor do I support them. How many times do I have to repeat that? Get your brian functions working properly and read what I wrote before you talk about mine, you idiot.
"stupid ass, it was you to whine (muslim sport n.1) about the world hating you, the difference is that everyday muslim give REASONS to be hated, while the germans tried to become better people."
That didn't stop you from labelling them as "Nazis". You are a racist pig, and you just admitted it. Tell me then, why should I apologise for what I did not do when I know it won't change a damn thing? You cannot reason with someone like you, who only hates those different than you and wants to see their blood spilled. You're fighting the terrorists? You're no better than them!
"TAQQIA or however it's spelled."
Does this look like a war zone to you? That is allowed when an enemy captures a Muslim soldier. At that point, you're supposed to lie to them. I don't see why you think that is evil. If I was captured by an enemy, I would lie rather then give important information to the enemy. But I guess it's easy to be an idealist when you have nothing harming you.
"What's the muslim excuse for the rest 1300 years?"
What was yours? For the two World Wars, the Burning times, the crusades?
"Muslim favourite sport n.2: DISTORTING HYSTORY"
That would have been fine, if we had written it. History is written by those in power. Who was and still is in power?
"actually muslims are destroying slowing churches day by day as we speak, former yugoslavia, turkey etc."
Actually, they are not. Stop coming up with ridiculious conspiracies. Turkey is a secular nation with a Christian population (a minority, but present neverhteless). Why would they destroy churches? There is a mosque, a church and a synagogue side-by-side in the heart of Istanbul. You have a lot to learn from them. If you talk about terrorists doing it, then yeah. And there's a reason for that, its because they are TERRORISTS! That's what they do, destroy. Bring me proof that there is a government sponsored destruction of churches in Turkey, and I will shut up.
"the umma is ALWAYS in fight with the non-muslims, when they are a minority they keep silent until they reach a good number."
Always? I live in a Muslim country. I have run into lots of Christians, Jews, Atheists, Neo-Pagans, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhis, and a lot of others I can't remember. My best friend is a Hindu. In a nation, who is supposedly at war with non-Muslims, and with a Muslim majority, it would only be natural for them to be deported or killed. But they are not. Why?
"the bible doesn't say that the world must be christian, the bible doesn't consider other religion as INFERIOR, the bible doesn't kill apostates, the bible doesn't say that the woman has got half a brain of a man."
Bullshit! Any religion other than Christianity is inspired by Satan, therefore Satanic. I have seen countless fundemantalists label Islam or anything else as Satanic based on those requirements. And yes, brutal passages exist in the Bible. You don't want to see it? Fine, I'll stick it here for all to see:
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)
"... Little by little I will drive them out from before you, until you have increased and possess the land (Ex 23:23-33; see also Ex 32:25-29, where the sin of making the golden calf by the Israelites leads to the command: "Each of you kill your brother, your friend, and your neighbor"). "
"But as for the towns of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. You shall annihilate them - the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites ... - just as the Lord your God has commanded (Deut 20:16-17; see also Deut 7:2-16). "
"O daughter Babylon, you devastator!
Happy shall they be who pay you back
what you have done to us!
Happy shall they be who take your little ones
and dash them against the rock!
(Psalms 137:8-9)."
What do you call all that if not violent and barbaric? The difference is that I admit that such passages exist in the Qur'an and I can deal with it. You won't even admit it.
"And no christian is offended by the harsh passages in the bible because no christian follows the bible literally."
Then why did George Bush call his war on Iraq a "crusade"? Wearing a tie and procaliming to the world that the destruction is in the name of liberty does not change anything.
SickBoy:
When I say "you people" I don't mean any racist comment. Sorry if it seemed that way.
" This Zakah, given out of honor and duty, can be "allocated"
for the "Poor {automaton}". Don't worry, the same garbage happened when giving "donations to the 'Boys in the Band'" during I.R.A. activity, and probably
a whole host of others. Re: Defacto Logistical Support for "terror"."
Look, I give charity. And if somehow that charity ends up in the hands of terrorists, then what am I supposed to do? Not help the poor? How can I differentiate between a true charity and a terrorist fund? That's why we have government regulations. But beyond following those, there is nothing I can do to stop money flow into terrorists. Not giving charity is not an option, as it is required.
"However, if Islam does not have any hierarchical structure."
It doesn't. But that's not what others are taught. Religion is between a Muslim and God, and imams are supposed to lead in prayer. Issuing of fatwas and religious rulings are done by a scholarly council. However, like I said, it is quite easy to fool people, especially if you brainwash them during their growth.
"the Western armies are coming, no matter what I say or do, therefore the
teachings within Islam are correct, and I will begin to support my bretheren in their physical combat..." A self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
I never said anything like that. Please do not assume things.
"Do not give up on the "struggle" to take an introspective assessment, but in the end YOU choose
whom YOU choose to be."
True. But the thing you will not realize is that terrorists don't walk the streets out here. They are as hidden and coercive as they are anywhere else. You think there is some guy standing in the middle of the raod, screaming "Bin Laden needs you!". Believe me, it isnt like that. From what I know, there was an al-Qaeda recruitment thing going on in a remote place of this country during religious classes in some mosque. But that has been shut down and the people running it are in jail. Other than that, I have never heard of anything like it again.
"the struggle is within, not throughout. Remove emotion and the facts will come to light. "
Good advise. I advise the same on most of the people out here as well.
sheik yer'mami:
Once again, you have proven to be nothing more than a racist pig who doesnt know much.
"Thank you for confirming everything I accused you of in my (deleted) post. "
I only admitted to being a Muslim. If that automatically "confirms" to you everything else, than that's fine by me. I don't really associate myself with idiots anyway.
"Why was the holy land, and all of north-Africa, and Spain, and Sicily, and parts of Greece, the land of Jews and Christians, constantly raided & finally conquered by the Musulman? "
Why was the Muslim caravans constantly raided by Christians, during their time of rule? Why was Andalus destroyed by Christians, when Christians there actually led a peaceful coexistance with everybody else? And if we did indeed conquer "the land of Jews and Christians" why does Europe still stand? Why did the British conquer Sudan, India and parts of the Middle East? Why did America run a slave trade out of Aftrica?
"Everyone was subjected to dhimitude and killed for the slightest transgression against Mohammedan rule. Science and philosophy was 'tolerated' and practiced by Jews & Christians, some who converted to Islam.
Nothing, nothing at all, nothing other than Islam was invented by Arabs. Thanx but no thanx..."
Really? Navigation, for one, was developed by the Arabs. Arabs had a significant role in Astronomy (Ulugh Bey), while the Church was prosecuting Galileo for blaspheming. Andalus had a role to play in the establishment of the University. And you said so yourself, Jews and Christians did exist in Andalus. If they were subjected to forced conversion, how come that they were "tolerated" at the same time. Also, if you mean that they were subject to taxes because they were not Muslims, then let me inform you of one more thing: The reason for that is that they do not have to go to war to defend the country. Their tax is to support the army, while themselves not getting in harm's way. Unlike Muslim citizens, who are forced to fight for their nation, non-Muslims do not have to. As a result, they pay tax instead. But I guess that's one thing that's usually kept in the dark. And yeah, if there was a rebellion, it would obviously be fought off. After all, insurgents in Iraq are also called rebels, and you have no problem with killing them for going against American rule. Stop being such a hypocrite and see things the way they are.
"The Alhambra is still standing, is it not? "
Yes, and so is many churches in the Middle East. So don't accuse us of destroying Christian churches in Muslim lands if you will not accept the same.
"Read it and educate yourself. "
Really? Robert Spencer really said that? Oh my God, I have been wrong all this time!! He has one book, hardly a proof, defending the Crusades. I have seen millions, who say otherwise. Maybe you should spend some time educating yourself instead of reading only what you agree with, if you read at all...
"I don't like 'Muslims', I prefer to call you what you are. "
That's fine, you only prove that you are indeed a racist pig.
"Live with it. Try not to die for it..."
I will, don't you worry your little brain about that.
enigma:
You certainly are no enigma to anyone familiar with the Mohammedan cult. Your above post shows all the colors of the totally brainwashed lunatic, pathologically obsessed, how could it be otherwise?
Are those who criticize your blood-cult automatically 'racist pigs?'
What 'race' is Islam, by the way? Was Mohammed not called 'a white man' by one of his worshippers? What race are Buddhists? What race are Catholics? What race are Jews?
Are those who worship Mohammed a 'race?' Are those who despise Mohammed 'racists?'
You are the arch-typical brain-dead defender of the indefensible.
The only race I belong to is the human race.
And 'Peter:'
I don't know what kind of sucker you are, but apologies to a Mohammedan don't belong here. Period.
The timeless circular argument is underway...again.
Final thoughts:
-Mandatory Pre-Natal Vitamins for 2 generations.
-Massive agricultural development. To include, but not limited to bio-tech grains, cattle and feeds, and hearty greens.
* High quality proteins and micronutrients for "impressionable" young minds.
-Send Kim Gandy and NARAL bunch to see what they can do. (Maybe this could be considered "terror" by some I know, any bets?.)
-Follow Russian and Saudi money, find the cells.
"SickBoy:
Circular? You noticed it too, didnt you?
"
I guess this is "dialogue", and I think I should correct my self.
It is TOO easy to go tit for tat. All sides, can provide factual arguments pro or con. However, "we: end up like a street hound chasing each others tails. I.E. a circle around the center issue, which is in my opinion, a root issue of divine inheritence. Yes, I said it, alllll the way back to Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, and yes, an unsure location of the Hadj (re: Gaza Strip and Israel.) Assimilation, with an ethnic identity, is the way; NOT annihilation, or "seperate but equal" et al. My family experience with Islam {Pronounced, "Ottoman"} goes back to 1699, in Bohemia. Factual history is blind and true. Sprinkling dust upon the pan to lean in ones favor vice another is lying at worst, and deceitful at best. Respect for ones adversaries is not synonomous with weakness or subservience. It is a prudent action. Why do I mention Abraham? Compromise is not a readily accessable word in the lexicon of the Islamic world, or even certain places within the "western" world (re: NWST, "La Raza", or any number of ethno-centric / racial supremecy organization. Burned books in Alexandria, sacked Judeo-Christian holy sites, vanquished Philistines, taxed {read "Extorted for Life"}, pillaged gold in Rome, attempted genocide through rape of women, oppressive dictators and gangsters {{read House of Saud}, et al infinity....embellished justifications etc.
Bible= Guide book, a guardrail of sorts. Through reformation, the violence is suppressed.
Sun Tzu= Guide book for warfare, physical, spiritual, or any number of applications.
Quran = Guide book for Paleo Bolshevik pathways, and for a minute amount of those who proclaim the universality of "Peace". I also believe, some in the non-hierarchial hierarchy of Islam, the universal definition of "religion" is what their megalomaniacal dellusions of supreme power and, and elementary cowardice, hide behind. I am by no means an expert in jack sh*t, but if one follows the logical, mathematical equation, these are my answers.
A mass is buoyed up by a force equal to the amount of water it displaces. Radical Islam is supported by a forceful application equal to the amount of blood it displaces. Freedom is the container holding the mass of people, only enough freedom is allowed to continue the support of Islam. Universal freedom is an infinite container, and therefore the "force" cannot bouy Islam as it is defined by the aforementioned hierarchy. An infinite expanse will NEVER support a finite mass in Archimedes.
Sickboy:
Your writing sure is complicated, but it's cool. I think I get what you mean.
"I guess this is "dialogue", and I think I should correct my self. "
I didn't mean anything by it. I simply agreed with you, we are going in circles.
"All sides, can provide factual arguments pro or con."
You're right. I was simply trying to show people that Muslims aren't, and weren't, the only ones spreading cruelty, and that the Bible contains violent passages too. I did not come here to ask people to explain past grievences. I simply came to work with you on a solution. But when met with hate, I simply had to reply in kind. Don't get me wrong, I only reply harshly to those who deserve it.
"Assimilation, with an ethnic identity, is the way; NOT annihilation"
Agreed. But with so much hate between both the sides, how can it lead to peaceful assimilation? Just look at the replies to my posts to see what I mean.
"Respect for ones adversaries is not synonomous with weakness or subservience. It is a prudent action"
Agreed. However, I cannot respect my enemies because simply, I have no enemies. I do not see the West as an enemy nor as an ally. They are people with their own lives. As long as they don't hurt me in anyway (which sometimes they do), I have no problem with them.
"Compromise is not a readily accessable word in the lexicon of the Islamic world"
Maybe not in the Islamic world, but in Islam. Our so-called leaders conviniently forget that part because it does not fit with their agenda. Make the people hate the West, and you will remain in power. It works the same way in the West. Make them hate the East, and you will gain a lot of money.
"I also believe, some in the non-hierarchial hierarchy of Islam, the universal definition of "religion" is what their megalomaniacal dellusions of supreme power and, and elementary cowardice, hide behind."
This I didn't get. What do you mean? If you're saying that the leaders in the Muslim world use the Qur'an to push for their own plans, then yes they do and that's the point I'm trying to make. If not, then please explain.
"Universal freedom is an infinite container, and therefore the "force" cannot bouy Islam as it is defined by the aforementioned hierarchy. An infinite expanse will NEVER support a finite mass in Archimedes."
All this philosophy is getting a bit complicated. By that, I suppose you mean that a finite Islam cannot be supported by an infinite universal freedom. How did you relate Islam, a concept, and universal freedom, another concept, to infinity? For something to be finite or infinite, it must have a value to be measured by. An idea cannot be infinite, as it makes no sense since an idea is something formed to communicate a message accross. Nor cannot be related to a concept, because a concept is simply an ideal form of something in the real world. Basically, a non-existant representation to represent something existant.
My dialogue comment was meant to show that even I, in my predisposition to silence, is speaking, or in a more correct term, "dialoguing".
I see Islam, in two "lights". On the one hand, I see it's monotheistic singularity, and potential acceptance for mankind in a UNIVERSAL and PLURAL PEACE. On the other hand I see a religion which has crept, and for the sake of argument I use 50 years as "recent" time, slowly, and methodical in action, towards an orgiastic festival of death and destruction. We, you and I, are definitely not alone in this assessment. Now I offer this, and I am by no means a mathematical giant...
If Islam is set as a value of "1", as it is defined by "misunderstanders" for the sake of argument, and it is placed into a container, which can, or is allowed to hold, a finite mass (believers", it (Islam as defined) cannot be buoyed (supported) by any other force other than "believers" who only have a value of "1" (as defined by "misunderstanders") and therefore will not allow any other factor into the container (intolerance). The units within the container are kept in forceful contact with the finite definition of Islam (as previously defined) through a sort of bloodletting of those who might have a factor of "2", this "new" factor will do one of two things, be accepted and throw off the pre-defined definition of terms (Islam = "1") and displace a "believer" of "1", there by "challenging" the singular definition of Islam in this argument. Or, the "believers" of "1" will repel "2" because it is not "1", and thereby preserving their core belief in "1".
...{taking deep breath}
Accordingly, if those who define Islam as "1" are faced with a ever expanding container (Universal Freedom) there will not be enough "believers" in "1" to repel mathematically factors greater than "1". Some increase, statistically, of "1"'s will occur, but due to a universality of infinite factors the defined "1" will, and can not, be supported by anything but itself. Or, one could even consider human enlightened universal freedom as a variable, not abled to be controlled by the predesignated definition of "1". Perhaps that better fits.
(Told you I am not Stephen Hawking)
I also think Dalton's Law of Partial Pressure can explain Radical Islam, some other laws dealing with pressure, volume, and temperatures may also.
Yet, in all of my theories, the "mass" or "containers" must fit the "radical" definitions of Islam, re" self fulfilling prophecy or conceptulization.
Now, sit and refresh yourself with mellon slices, cheese, and a cool drink. I'll return to my studies.
please someone delete the mohameddan "lessons".
we don't need to read that the muslims are always victims and other manipulated view on history.
The rest of the news collections denies everything this person says.
Let's not apply dangerous double standards.
well, since i was struck by mr. spencer for my last post, i'll tone it down and re-write what i can remember to sheikh yer'mami and poisnr.
sheikh yer'mami:
"Your above post shows all the colors of the totally brainwashed lunatic, pathologically obsessed, how could it be otherwise?"
Quote me on anything which shows that. If my calling for dialogue and an end to the violence is lunacy to you, then that shows who the real terrorist is.
"Are those who criticize your blood-cult automatically 'racist pigs?'"
That was criticism? Sorry, it sounded a lot like hate speech.
"What 'race' is Islam, by the way? "
Islam is a religion. People who believe in that religion are categorized into a group called Muslims. If you hate this group simply because they are Muslims, you are being racist. You not getting this point shows just how low you really are. What do you call Hitler? He was after the Jews, who are also a faith group.
"The only race I belong to is the human race."
Then start acting like it and cut the hate speech and the racism.
And by the way, you never did reply to my question: If you hate us so much and think we're such a threat, why don't you enlist in the army and come down to Iraq instead of cowering and screaming from a corner?
poisonr:
I'll reply to whatever I remember for you.
You said something about Muslims owning the only nukes in the world.
That has to be the most ignorant thing I have ever heard. The US is the first country to have developed the atom bomb. They are also the ONLY country to have ever used it. In recent times, Israel is the only nation in the Middle East to have nuclear weapons. No Muslim nation owns nuclear weapons. Iraq was the only nation supposed to have them, but that didn't turn out to be true, did it? I can understand when people distort well-known facts to make their points, but yours is at an unbelievably stupid level.
You said something about the US bringing freedom into Iraq and that was like giving jewels to pigs.
Tell that to the civilians dead in Iraq. The average number of deaths in Irak is 25 per day after the invasion. Does that look like freedom to you?
You said something about Muslims distorting views, right?
That would have been fine, if we had written it. History is written by those in power. Who was and still is in power?
I can't really remember what other idiotic questions you asked, so I'll move on to your new post.
"please someone delete the mohameddan "lessons"."
What's the matter? Ran out of replies?
"we don't need to read that the muslims are always victims and other manipulated view on history."
I never said Muslims were ALWAYS the victims. You make it sound like all Muslims should die and that all we ever do is kill others. I'm only trying to say that Muslims have suffered and continue to suffer. Yes, they do cause pain, but they recieve it as well. It's the cover up of Western media in general which make you people think that we never really suffer, when we do. That's all. And manipulated view on history? It is not a manipulation to say that people who have been killed at some point in time, have been killed.
"The rest of the news collections denies everything this person says."
The news articles posted on this site is meant to throw a bad light on the Muslims. Obviously it would deny everything I say. In fact, our news don't ever reach you people. So, I'm not surprised that you wouldn't care about a Muslim dying or not. It's the same to you, isn't it?
"Let's not apply dangerous double standards."
Coming from you, that really makes me laugh. Start looking at things objectively, learn how to have a decent conversation (the kind that normal human beings usually go through), and then come and tell me about double standards.
In short, poisonr, you don't care about Muslims and think that they should all die. You've been fed with fear of Muslims for all this time that you've been brainwashed into not seeing the difference between terrorists and normal Muslims. In fact, you don't even value the life of a human being who prefers to call himself Muslim. This isn't and never was about who killed more, this was about ending the hate between us. I come down here, and call for dialogue and inform you that we too have been suffering. What do you do? You froth at the mouth because I said I was Muslim. You take my words, distort them, and then call me a terrorist. You come up with an accusation, find anything to pin it on me, then rub it all in my face. Not only that, you take my belief and rub it in the mud. And then you call me the terrorist and the murderer. I'm sure that if you had a gun and were face to face with a Muslim child, you would not hesitate for a second to shoot him in the head. You're sub-human, and I pity the kids you will raise.
"What 'race' is Islam, by the way? "
Well, Islam is Arab inside and out. It is, afterall, the contrivance of an Arab mind.
This is why Islam looks so out of place in formerly peacful paradises like Indonsia with its once tranquil Buddhist roots.
What will happen to those beautiful Buddhist statues? Will they be destroyed like the Afgan Buddha statues by angy cult members?
GreatShaitan:
For one thing, the world's second largest religion can in no way be described as a "cult". But then again, everything other than what the West believes in is usually considered a "cult". Also, first worry about the Wiccan members in your societies before worrying about the Budhhist members in ours. As I recall, one of your well-known preachers requested a napalm strike on Wiccan members in the US.
Size does not matter in defining a cult. What makes something a cult is how far it is outside of the mainstream.
It is possible to have cults within actual religions. Yes, there are cults within Christianity and western society as well.
Adherents of Islam shy from being called Mohammedans but they are in fact followers of Mohammed. By all other accounts Islam is cult by virtue of its behavior.
p.s. I am actually more worried about the art than the people although Buddhists are good people so I would have to admit to being worried for their safety. I understand that Buddhism is the only religion that has never had a war start under its rule! Admirable!!