"Can we really believe that we should have the right not only to practise our faith in non-Muslim societies, but also to convert others, while we deny others the same right in our countries?"

Can we really believe that we should have the right not only to practise our faith in non-Muslim societies, but also to convert others, while we deny others the same right in our countries?
Posted by Robert at April 3, 2006 08:18 AM

There should be no restriction for non-Muslims to preach their faith in all areas except the Arabian Peninsula.

When a non-Muslim reverts to Islam, all his / her sins including those punishable by death or life imprisonment as per his / her earlier faith are forgiven and the new Muslim starts a new life. That means, the Muslim Ummah would defend the new Muslim with all its might including waging war if his / her old co-religionists attempt to punish her / him. Such being the case – that the whole Ummah would risk its annihilation to defend the new Muslim – how can there be objection to Islam decreeing death for an apostate?

There is no double standard. We do not fall for the clever ruse of some non-Muslims concentrating on a part of Islam and clamoring for its reform. Islam is perfect. If ever there is any need for reform, it the people who criticize Islam without understanding.

While sane and moderate Muslims naturally believe that these excesses arise from a misinterpretation of the faith, non-believers see things differently. When suicide bombers and terrorists spread death and destruction in the countries that gave them shelter, they too often blame the faith that drove them to these moments of madness.

There we go again - stop blowing people up because it's bad PR.

Generally, though, his point about the double standard is well made.

We do not fall for the clever ruse of some non-Muslims concentrating on a part of Islam and clamoring for its reform. Islam is perfect.

Well if it's perfect, surely every part of it is perfect, so concentrating on one part shouldn't make any difference.

Find Habib Johnson. Urge him write an Op/Ed article about his own experience. He knows how to write. And he knows a good deal about the real behavior and attitudes of Muslims. He's been on the receiving end of the Muslim interpretation of Sura 2.256. He can explain to many unwary Infidels a thing or two.

"But now, terrorism has exposed the faultlines between the two civilisations, and an increasing number of western voices are saying enough is enough to this one-way traffic." -from article

Ok, so Americans and Europeans are getting sick of this double standard and it's starting to get recognized (even in the hippie liberal media w00t!). I agree that the "islamic law" way of thinking is incompatible and completely opposite to the western standards of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So how exactly to we go about resolving this situation? I think it's pretty obvious that at this point in time, that it's going to take nothing short of a miracle to get the wheels in motion. Our governments are so lethargic it's sickening. While I cannot speak for my European brethren, I can say this, in America I think a good starting point is getting CAIR outlawed. Let's really push to have their spending scrutinized. If this is a war on "terror" (as undefined as that is) then any organization helping to fund terrorists should be shut down. I think one more place where we need to start is getting our politicians to really focus in on defining the problem, not terror, but islam. Oh, one final important thing to be done is getting the oil lobbyists out of our politician's beds and onto the streets. If words don't work then there's always tar and feathers (ode to our forefathers). In the words of Patrick Henry "GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR GIVE ME DEATH!"

On the "perfection" of Islam:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Muslims who live in the West are now constantly on the defensive, having to explain to their local friends and colleagues that Islam is a religion of peace and that the terrorism around us is the work of a handful of extremists.

Ooooh, poor Moslem Man. So terribly misunderstood. But, hey, when you're explain the peace part, do you interject that old Hadith about that time Mohammed had his boys build a campfire on the chest of a Koreish pagan screaming in agony as the fire burned through his skin.

But, I see joe point: that toasty pagan looked real peaceful after the campfire burned through to the rock.

Enough is enough

Don't indulge in wishful thinking. Enough is never enough with this self-reverential organized crime gang.

They've captured a significant land mass already, and are on the tipping point of capturing big new territories soon. TV, the Internet, airplanes, and self-loathing socialists will see to that.

Plus, when those delusional Marixists in Europe succeeed in ceding that continent to the Mohammedans, that'll be a big boost.

MO MOHAMMEDS MO MOHAMMEDANS MO MORE OUTREACH TOP MOSLEMS MO MO

Did I say delusional Marxists? I apologize for the redundancy.

Well if it's perfect, surely every part of it is perfect, so concentrating on one part shouldn't make any difference.
Posted by: Interested at April 3, 2006 09:20 AM

Islam has many checks and balances. When two rules need to be considered together, considering one rule in isolation is wrong. A well designed car will not run, if you are going to remove a part like the steering wheel. Forgiveness of past sins and death for an apostate go together. We cannot criticize one without criticizing the other. We cannot accept one without accepting the other.

A well designed car will not run, if you are going to remove a part like the steering wheel

Or even an airbag.

It’s absolutely ludicrous to believe that Islam is perfect. It’s becoming more and more apparent that Islam is anything but perfect. If you believe this, Mohideen, then I truly feel sorry for you.

What’s worse is not having the ability to see the obvious double standards in Islam which were pointed out in the article and to use a convoluted, irrational argument to back up your own deluded statement. It’s frightening to imagine that there are other equally close-minded individuals who are just as stunted in their thinking and will cling to what this person believes when the truth is there in black and white before their very eyes and they remain blind to it.

By the way, why shouldn’t any other religion be allowed to be practiced in the Arabian Peninsula? Could it be because Mohammad said that it should be this way? Yes, but its use is to propagate those double standards once again.

I wish there were another religion out there that claimed that Muslims should be slaughtered en masse. I wish this religion claimed that in the end times even trees and rocks would speak out saying “there is a Muslim behind me –come kill him!” and that this other religion called Muslims the descendants of pigs and monkeys and claimed that all Muslims were filthy. Only then would there be true equality among the religions.

I would actually wish that these despicable, vile, and inhumanely insulting items weren’t a part of Islam, but unfortunately they are and it is the close-minded, backwards thinking idiots like Mohideen who believe these are all ‘perfect’ and so any hopes of bringing about Islam’s realistic modern day reform are dashed to pieces.

This is the modern world. Wake up, get with it, or be left behind. Islam’s been left behind for far too long, so they’re either going to have to make changes or else face extinction as modern day thinking amongst the advanced civilizations makes those changes for them.

It must really upset muslims who consider the koran to contain allahs written word and there by “perfect” to be so misunderstood by us infidels. The one question none of them can answer is why any supreme deity would chose words so poorly that anyone in any culture would not instantly recognize and understand them as coming from a supreme being. If the koran was really divinely inspired then allah must have been a complete moron not to see this coming. Not only does his written word not make any sense to us but consider why muslims fear other religious texts. If the koran were really perfect and no other test would ever be needed, then common since would dictate that no lesser works would be any threat to it. By constantly demanding any book be used without the ability to cross check it’s claims with counter claims, any reasonable person would immediately become suspicious. Their fear is not that we will not convert, they really fear they will. If allowed to cross check the koran with other texts they might see muhammad as the mad man he was. Granted I have only read the koran a few times but it seems to me muhammad is much more powerful than allah. Without old mo’s instructions for life, allah would fade away.

Recently I saw a bracelet with WWJD (what would Jesus do) simple message, think before you act and try and do as the son of God would do. I thought about seeing someone with a WWMD (what would muhammad do) bracelet. Such a person would be immediately singled out as a violent anti social extremist but they would simply be living up to the bracelet inscription. If muhammad were alive today, someone would have captured or killed him. If Jesus were alive today, some would follow some would not but he would not order them attacked, coerced or threatened, he would have no need to. A man who doesn’t fear scrutiny is a very powerful man indeed.

There is no faster way to expand membership in Islam than to kill those who vacate the religion and harass or kill those of differing religions.

Historically, no western government has ever confronted Islam for its practices.

The destruction of the Armenians living within the Ottoman empire exemplify this strategy.
Currently, Christian peoples in Iraq are being subjected to these practices (Lawrence F. Kaplan: Crossing Over The New Republic 04/03/06).
Soon the ancient Christian populations of Iraq will be driven out, killed or convert to survive.

And watch, no major Western news network will say a word.

Forgiveness of past sins and death for an apostate go together. We cannot criticize one without criticizing the other. We cannot accept one without accepting the other.

What I said. These Moslems are goofballs who staggered out of the desert addled, but nonetheless intent on sharing their profound and murderous wisdom with all mankind.

PBUH PUBH PBUH PUBH PBUH PUBH PBUH PUBH PBUH PUBH PBUH PUBH PBUH PUBH

It is established that Islam is not a religion. It is a Nation replete with a constitution (the Koran), an ideology (the Sunnah), a military, and a legal system.

But what about these Moslems? What are they?

To quote the inimitable Johhny Cochran:

It does not make sense. Does this make sense? This just does not make sense!

Assalamau-Alaikum all,

Brother of the umma Mohideen, you are a conservative muslim and having lived & taught in America....you have done very well to ensure that Infidel thinkiing has not clouded your judgement.

The Infidel says that you cannot be muslim & be clever...but you have proved many of the infidel wrong. I so want for your miracles work to continue ...you are a model muslim that others need to aspire to...you even acknowledged that Ahmadis are muslims too....progress indeed.

As an Ahmadi MUSLIM...I have tried to fulfill my primary role of dawa on this infidel blog...I mean why bother on a muslim website...they already know what we know.

My brother of the Umma, your one statement however made today troubles me somewhat and some of the infedel has picked on it too...

"Islam is perfect".

I am troubled because I believe that Islam is ALMOST perfect but not perfect.

There are a few inaccuracies that have been highlighted within Islam literature which are not 100% true.

The earth is flat (I can live with this one...because this is an abstract model...Allah showed the muslim that the West too is for the muslim...this is best examplifed on a flat surface).

The moon is fiery ball...generating it's own light ...but it gets the light from the sun.

The sun sets in a muddy environment & can only rise after permission from Allah (swt).

I am sure it is my lack of understanding that is at fault here and I pray that Allah (swt)shows me the light ...but at the moment I am troubled by this.

Also being a woman ...our's prophet's (pbuh) marriage to Aiesha at the age of 6 disturbs me greatly....was there a need for this? Many muslims I have spoken to lie and say she was 18 but the Hadith clearly talk about her playing with dolls. Allah forgive my need to question this.

Getting back to this topic, I have a question too. Allah (SWT) will forgive our past sins when we convert, but is this done only once? For example if one converts...can he/she deconvert...perform a sin and then reconvert to have this sin removed?

This question troubles mE somewhat too? In the UK I have asked a muftis these questions and was only TOLD to pray to Allah for forgivness in thinking in this corrupt manner. I prayed very hard for many days but these questions linger?

I was brought up in the UK and mixing with infedel childrens has not helped me...but you seem to have survived this trauma...truly Allah is with you.

Me, I am much afraid that hellfire is for me...it is why I perform dawa with much devotion, but I am afraid...and I keep thinking that Allah punished me for this by almost taking my shor Anwer away from me in the earthquake.

Unlike you I am much troubled in mind because I think Islam is almost perfect but not completely so.

I still wish Islamic peace & jilbabs for the infedel and want to be stong in belief in Allah(swt).

@ Mohideen Ibramsha

Nice view you have there! But have you ever considered that there is no ****ing GOD. That the thing about "heaven" and hell is all a bloody figment of our imagination?

Grow up, people! Start thinking out of the box. Improve your lives and those of the people around you.

LOL..."GOD". When people start thinking about their day-to-day lives and help others, I guess that should be more than enough to get you into your version of "heaven"!

Proud to be an atheist!
Vishnu (from the land of "GOD", India!!!)

This Mohideen Ibramsha poster exhibits a chilling equanimity of insanity, tragically impervious to reason: it is a human shell from which humanity has been drained -- replaced by the motor impulses of ideological thought-process, and with the motor energy of action left intact: a real android: neither subhuman nor superhuman: parahuman.

The sun sets in a muddy environment

Yes, that is troubling. Peace and jilbabs to you too and your childrens and hubby.

A well designed car will not run, if you are going to remove a part like the steering wheel.
Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at April 3, 2006 09:42 AM
===========

A car without a steering wheel is inoperable to Muslims. Islam has breed and brainwashed independent thought and beliefs from them.

In America, we take a pair of vice grips, a little bailing wire and duct tape and drive that car in the next NASCAR race. Freedoms in America have generated independent thought and beliefs in Americans.

The Texican.
Freedom, the only choice at any cost.

The National Association of Butter Lovers announced today that any butter lover who decided to start eating margarine or any fatty spread other than butter should be killed. The NABL’s policy stems from their previously announced vow that all butter lovers everywhere would die to defend the butter loving rights of anyone who became a butter lover after having previously loved some other fatty spread. The NABL summed up their new policy in the following statement: “I would die to defend your right to eat butter so if you decide to stop eating butter I should be able to kill you in turn.” Human rights organizations worldwide questioned this new policy of the NABL. However, the NABL declared that their new policy would only affect butter lovers or those who have converted to butter loving so non-butter lovers should not be concerned as it was an internal matter.

Islam is a lot like the "Iron Curtain" countries of the past. You can stand at that wall and see the freedom of the West, but if you try to leave...you are killed. What a religion, the wall of death to keep members.

Good morning Nassem, While I do not believe in you chosen faith (nor have I ever stated my own or lack there of) I have read at least some of your Holy Scriptures. I too had many questions and finally decided, it was not for me. Although, I personally see islam as a cult and not a religion I support your right to practice it. I do draw the line on anyone who tries too force individual beliefs on others. You are an educated woman you have read enough history to realize rightly or wrongly muslims have attacked, destroyed and corrupted many civilizations in it’s history. I see no sign that it has changed or even will attempt to do so. Because your people refuse to change there is very little chance of our peoples ever being true friends, allies or even equal business partners. That is fine with me, live in peace, just away from me and mine. I think questioning ones faith is part of the process. If you are not free to question then you will never gain any true understanding. Unfortunately for you, members of your own faith will not see your search for answers as a step toward your personal enlightenment, they will see it as a threat and potentially as blasphemy. I encourage you to keep posting and seeking answers, just be careful doing so. Your own people are a threat to you. Asking another muslim’s opinion, especially one from a more violent sect doesn’t seem to smart to me. I do not know if mohideen really sees you as a muslim or he was just smart enough to realize, if he had claimed you were not one, we would have jumped on the opportunity to defend you. We westerners do not see any major differences in islamic sects. No more so than we do on Christian ones. The one major difference is basically simple, different Baptist sects (as an example) rarely commit violence against other churches. I just wish more muslims would question themselves, a few minutes of reflection could potentially end much of this violence.

I think I love you, Naseem. (Is your other name David?) (Just an inside joke)

Big G (and others here),

You're wasting your breath and time trying to tell Mohideen & Naseem, both Flatlanders, about the limitations of the two dimensions of their prison which they are irrevocably convinced is the Saving Truth.

Allah assum lickum to you too, Naseem.

Wow. I’m impressed that you’re having THOUGHTS and questioning Islamic literature. There may actually be some hope for one so hopelessly lost in the maze of illogic that Islam is. It is by no means perfect and your questioning it shows that you may have a fighting chance, after all.

Anyway, onto your various points of contention:

First thing …this Muslim (as well as about a billion more) could do a lot worse than to have their judgment ‘clouded’ by the infidel thinking. All of the modern day amenities, technological advances, innovations, creations, and forward-thing, progressive views of the modern world has been given TO YOU by the infidel. Think of that the next time you log onto your computer, turn on your TV, or flush a commode, Naseem. What has Islam done for mankind besides breed hatred, contempt, close the minds of men, and forced aggression upon the inhabitants of this world? Those few things you question should force you to question the entirety of Islam, as it’s supposed to be perfect, as was the man who gave it to you, Muhammad. Was he truly so perfect? Do you suppose Aiesha thought he was a good, ‘perfect’ man while he was penetrating her underdeveloped child’s body and causing her untold pain? Seriously, is this man, who is historically and accurately described as a pedophile, the ‘perfect’ man? I think not. Reasonable minds would think not, as well.

Wrong, too, that the infidel says you cannot be Muslim and be clever. On the contrary, the most despicable thieves, crooks, and killers are clever. Muhammad was incredibly clever in his deceitful attacks upon the many tribes he conquered –Muslims and cleverness go hand in hand!

I believe hellfire is truly yours if you continue down the path of the wicked: the path of the Muslims. I truly respect and admire them for one thing: their devotion. They are, however, devoted to a truly evil God and master. I completely agree with Treehugger’s posting and I believe it’s the perfect analogy for Islam: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? …this is an accurate description of the modern day plight with Islam: it’s bred ravenous wolves and evil, demonic creatures who preach hatred and, as said by their very lips, they ‘worship’ death. I don’t believe in any God whose ultimate plan for his own creation is death and destruction.

It’s my opinion that Allah is Satan and that the Muslims are being deceived. Satan found the one group of people who he knew would gladly take to the horrendous nature of what is evil and managed to spread his religion through deception, hatred, and death. Try to leave once you’re in, and they’ll kill you –outlaw the killing of apostates and you’ll see many, many oppressed Muslims converting to other religions or giving up religion altogether in droves. But hey, this is just another angry infidel speaking, so …why should it matter to you? We’re unclean and bred from pigs and apes, so why listen to me?

These so called holy books were written when man thought the earth was flat, does'nt that give anyone a clue?

I liked this article. For me, it exposed what most people already knew: that "moderate" muslims know whats going in the world, but are prepared to do nothing about it.

Naseem
Me, I am much afraid that hellfire is for me...it is why I perform dawa with much devotion, but I am afraid...and I keep thinking that Allah punished me for this by almost taking my shor Anwer away from me in the earthquake.

I know I won't take nonsense from you, and that this is not really a forum for the propagation of the Gospel. But to be serious for a moment, if you really do fear hellfire so then it is my duty to point you to this.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16"
I understand that you must be careful what you read but follow this link and if you seek true peace. It's nearly Easter.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4926419

Paradise is before you, and Hell is behind you!

"The cosmos that Mohammed brought to them corresponded to this psychology. Men were divided in two clearly distinct categories: on one side, the Arabs, believers and trustees of divine truth; on the other, unbelieving pagans who deny the existence of Allah, the immortality of the flesh and the mission of the Prophet. The obligation of every Muslim in regard these latter was simple: he had to strive to rally them to Islam and exterminate without pity those who refused to convert. Every war was therefore holy and one with an eye to propagate the "true religion", and God reserved special favors
for those who thus consacrated their lives... All should participate in combat, even the blind and lame. Only very young children, the insane and women were exempt. Every Muslim who tried to flee from combat were to be put to the sword. For, of all sins, fleeing from the sacred duty to fight was the most abominable, one which had the
consequence of eternal damnation. All the Koranic prescriptions, decreed to inflame the zeal of the Arabs, culminated in this affirmation which became their rallying cry:

Paradise is before you, and Hell is behind you!

"When I want to pray, says the rule, I go to the place where I wish to say my prayer. I sit still until I am composed. Then I stand up: the Kaaba is in front of me, paradise to my right, hell to my left, and the angel of death stands behind me. Then I say my prayer as if it were my last. And thus I stand, between hope and fear, not knowing whether God has received my prayer favorably or not."

Islam has ingeniously exploited the existential tension of existence of human nature by intensifying it and redirecting its focus to a war against all who, by being non-Muslim, threaten the transfiguration of reality by Allah through his proxies, fighting Muslims. Islam has transmuted the internal existential tension into an outward struggle against the Other, the Infidel. Ironically, Muslims try to argue that the "internal struggle" is the paramount expression of jihad; but, really, the internal struggle of Muslims is in fact a psychological technique for suppressing the doubts and mystery inherent to the tension of existence, in favor of an apodictic certitude that dissolves the individual in a communal pool of dogma, an apodictic certitude that is intended to end the tension wherever Islamic law rules -- and ultimately to end the tension on Earth.

Since the tension cannot be ended in this life, the Islamic enterprise is doomed to fail; though unfortunately it is not necessarily doomed to fail to slaughter untold millions in its pursuit of its dream-world.

"There is no double standard. We do not fall for the clever ruse of some non-Muslims concentrating on a part of Islam and clamoring for its reform. Islam is perfect. If ever there is any need for reform, it the people who criticize Islam without understanding. "

Mohideen,

Why question the reality that there is a double standard coming from the Muslim world? It is refreshing to see there are some Muslims who are starting to question why Muslims demand one standard for themselves and in turn demand it for non-Muslims.

Also for a faith to grow and get stronger, reform is a necessary. Both the Jewish and Christian faiths have had theirs and because of their reformations; they have both become stronger. Islam is NOT a perfect faith, and it NEEDS reformation. Otherwise it will implode and become history.

Robert,

It is refreshing to see that even there are some Muslims who are question this double standard.

This Naseem - Mohideen thing is instructive. Hope they keep posting. Both have lived in the West. Nassem was apparently raised in the U.K. She is an Ahmadi. And there he is, and there she is. Neither one suffering from apparent dementia praecox. Both suffering, in ways they fail to recognize, from having minds on Islam.

We can eavesdrop. We can learn from that eavesdropping. Keep rubbing your eyes in disbelief as you take in what they say - but believe it. They do.

As an Ahmadi MUSLIM...I have tried to fulfill my primary role of dawa on this infidel blog...I mean why bother on a muslim website...they already know what we know.

Why even bother doing dawa on THIS site. You may as well do dawa on RSS/VHP forums. You may call me your "brother" but i'd rather have an infideless for a sister rather than a sympathy mongering Arabised Punjabi. The thought that we share same ethnicity is revolting.

Islam is perfect. If ever there is any need for reform, it the people who criticize Islam without understanding. Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at April 3, 2006 09:08 AM

005.068
YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." ....

029.046
YUSUFALI: And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

On one hand, “perfect Islam” claims to follow the same God as Christians and Jews, then when it gets pointed out that these doctrines are completely different and therefore can not possibly describe the same God, “perfect Islam” then claims the other must be “corrupt”, either way, it makes Mohammad a palterer.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire
French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778)

illustr8rg8r,

Well said.. It is true that Islam is the antithesis of Judeo-Christianity. I believe it was purposefully setup that way for reasons I don't fully understand. But the evidence is abundantly clear.

To islam, the Judeo-Christian God is merely a lesser minion subservient to Allah (which explains why muslims shout "Our God is GREATER!" whenever they are exerting their dominance over the Jews or Infidels and also why we've seen them point their finger into the air to infer that their god is number one!). Whereas, their god is the Judeo-Christian world's Satan.

One side honors the sanctity of life. The other revels in death. One builds things up. The other tears it down. One encourages independent thought and free expression. The other seeks to limit it or prohibit it altogether. One allows for freedom of conscience to believe in a different faith. The other expressly mandates that you be killed merely for disbelieving. And the list of opposites goes on and on..

Is it merely coincidence that the materialistic Paradise promised to Muslim believers resembles the third temptation which the devil offered to Jesus during his 40-day fast in the desert, as depicted in Matthew 4:8-9?

{8} Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. {9} "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

Mahdi Al-Dajjal,

Want more evidence? One of the biggest I’ve seen is the ‘Number of the Beast’ as stated in Revelations …that whole 666 thing. It’s supposed to be on the right hand or forehead of those following the Anti-Christ in the end times. Someone else on this site pointed out that the Muslims only hold the Qur’an with their right hand and it has 6,666 verses in it. Not exactly 666, but close enough to raise some eyebrows.

Others on this site have argued that there’s more or less, but being a mere infidel, I don’t exactly know …nor will I ever know for sure, thanks to the misinformation given to us from the people whom the Qur’an was intended for. If you Google Qur’an and 666 though, you get a lot of hits of some very interesting information...

illustr8rg8r,

I don't buy into the whole 666 thing. And why buy into it anyway when there is so much emperical evidence highlighting the polar opposites between Judeo-Christian ethos and islamic ones (or the sheer lack of islamic ethics). One can come up with plenty of other glaring examples just by thinking about it further.

Mahdi

illustr8rg8r-

The other 6 is securely hidden behind the Black Rock [AKA iron pyrite meteorite] in the corner of the Ka'aba.

Mohideen-

How can any book be "perfect" if written down by humans?

(Even Muslims admit that some suras were lost, one even eaten by a jackass that wandered into some early believer's tent and munched down that specific verse ...which had been scribbled on a palm leaf, or some other form of edible medieval post-it note.)

The only thing approaching perfect in this world is our ability to admit our own imperfections.

In the UK I have asked a muftis these questions and was only TOLD to pray to Allah for forgivness in thinking in this corrupt manner. I prayed very hard for many days but these questions linger?
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM

Dear sister Naseem,

Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah

May I rephrase this question? Why evil thoughts occur? The answer is found in http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=occurs&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
===
Abu Huraira reported that Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), said: When it occurs to my bondsman that he should do a good deed but he actually does not do it, record one good to him, but if he puts it into practice, I make an entry of ten good acts in his favour. When it occurs to him to do evil, but he does not commit it, I forgive that. But if he commits it, I record one evil against his name. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed. The angels said: That bondsman of Yours intends to commit evil. though His Lord is more Vigilant than he. Upon this He (the Lord) said: Watch him; if he commits (evil), write it against his name but if he refrains from doing it, write one good deed or him, for he desisted from doing it for My sake. The Messenger of Allah said: He who amongst you is good of faith, all his good acts are multiplied from ten to seven hundred times (and are recorded in his name) and all the evils that he commits are recorded as such (i, e. without increase) till he meets Allah. (Book #001, Hadith #0235) (Sahih Muslim)
===

An evil thought that was not implemented is rewarded by Allah. So, do not be perturbed by your lingering questions. Yes, beware you don’t act on any evil thought as it would be recorded against you.

In India and other countries, when an inquisitive child asks a difficult question that child is asked to shut up and behave well in future by not asking such questions. However, in USA I found that the elders try their level best to answer the most difficult questions. When they feel that they do not have the ability, they often direct the child to investigate and help the child in the investigation. This encourages the child to be curious and learn more.

May Allah SWT endow the Muslim mother with the patience to educate her child even if the questions are downright infuriating.

Inshah Allah, I hope to attempt to answer your questions. I pray to Allah to help me.

Inshah Allah, I hope to attempt to answer your questions. I pray to Allah to help me.
Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 3, 2006 04:01 PM

How is that answering questions? All you did was tell her it was all right to ask questions--what question did you answer? Perhaps you don't know the answer, which is why you tell her to ask some such authority. Perhaps you fail to realize that religion OUGHT to make sense. If questions aren't easily answered it's not because you lack the capacity to answer them, it's because the religion has failed to do so. This is why Muslims get defensive when you mention something like Muhammad's pedophilia--the questions aren't easily answered because it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. I would bet that if you had been honest with yourself you simply CANNOT defend such an act.

How can an imperfect man deliver a perfect message? Muhammad introduced his personal biases for he could not have known truth as it was revealed to him (for to be perfect would be god-like indeed). Not to mention, as Profitsbeard said, "Even Muslims admit that some suras were lost, one even eaten by a jackass that wandered into some early believer's tent and munched down that specific verse ...which had been scribbled on a palm leaf, or some other form of edible medieval post-it note." There are inherent FLAWS throughout religion--not just the ones you perceive in the beliefs of others. Why don't you wake up to this fact: "you are not perfect, neither is your religion (especially as understood by you and its followers), so you have NO RIGHT TO JUDGE OTHERS." No compulsion, indeed!

you have NO RIGHT TO JUDGE OTHERS
Posted by: Eudaemon at April 3, 2006 04:48 PM

Pray tell me what judgment did I give?

Shinuv -

I may not share your views on God, or the lack thereof; because I happen to believe in a God, but I do believe in, and stand behind your right to state your opinion and freely choose your own belief system!!

This show of support for someone 'outside' my belief system will probably shock some Muslims, but I can lend my support because Atheists - last I checked - don't have a long-term plan of Ruling the World, and cramming their no-God beliefs down other peoples throat!

Islam, on the the other hand, doesn't allow an individual the freedom to "choose" their own faith; and in my opinion, it seems to fall under a lightly different category. I don't know, call me crazy, but Islam doesn't sound like your typical "religion" any more - not at all. It's as though its morphed into a cleverly disguised dictatorship.

It may have started out as a religion, but it's changed into something unearthly and queer! Anyone share my opinion?

Nasseem

A very intelligent post.

you have NO RIGHT TO JUDGE OTHERS
Posted by: Eudaemon at April 3, 2006 04:48 PM

Pray tell me what judgment did I give?

What I am saying is that Islam should not proclaim to be truth and that Judaism/Christianity is false. If you believe that your religion is correct, you should at least acknowledge other people's right to believe as they wish. The Golden Rule seems to not apply in the case of Muslims--which is the double standard to which this thread is directed.

Additionally Islam should not be spread through violence--if you believe otherwise, then the statement is still directed at you. Provide a logical moral foundation for such a belief. If Allah truly was disgusted by infidels why does he allow them to prosper while Islamic countries remain in poverty? Have you not thought of how silly you seem when you blame all of mankind's ills on the rascally Jews and infidels? Earthquake machine? Are you serious? You've got to have a screw lose...

How about all of the good that eminates from Western and Jewish culture? Why would a just God allow the unbelievers to develop technology, knowledge, arts, etc. while Muslims do well to put food on the table? Is God unjust? Does he not care about his believers? Could it be that the West does well because it is not Muslim? Could it be that all of the good (and the bad) that comes out of the West is because of the freedom we have? Perhaps God rewards us for what we do with our freedom?

Mohideen-

You gave the judgment that "Islam is perfect.".

How can you, being imperfect, know such a thing?

Logic is a bitch, ain't it?

Dear brother of the Umma Mohideen,

Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah

I was afraid that perhaps I had gone too far with my questions and that you would not answer...but Insha-Allah , Allah (swt)has seen fit to provide succur and favour upon me...and you did not abandon your sister.

I know that you need time to reflect on the questions I posed...this is most important to me...so please take your time..do not let the infedel hurry you ....but please attempt to answer them.

I was telling Anwer about my emeetings with you... and Masha-Allah he sends his wishes and every success on more Koranic miracles, you have worked hard.

The one aspect I feel very emotional about is this. Do you think that I am being punished for such impure thoughts? Why should Anwer suffer if I am the guilty one? I cannot sleep when he coughs in pain and sometimes I cry myself to sleep. Do you think Allah sees this, it is I who should suffer? I try hard with dawa here in Pak and the UK when I go.

I know you may not have the answers, but I feel you are at a higher plane in your Islamic quest than I and your opinion may help my emotional state.

Note that I am not really looking for sympathy...but an islamic viewpoint may help.

Robert, when did Jihadwatch turn into the Dear Abby of the muslim world?????

The moon is fiery ball...generating it's own light ...but it gets the light from the sun.
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM

Dear sister Naseem,

Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah.

I never heard that the moon generates its own light. Could you please give the reference? For the present, I offer the following:

From http://www.solarviews.com/eng/moon.htm we have:
===
Moon Statistics
Mean surface temperature (day) 107°C
Mean surface temperature (night) -153°C
Maximum surface temperature 123°C
Minimum surface temperature -233°C
===

In our homes we use fire to boil water. The moon has mean day surface temperature of 107 degrees Centigrade which is hotter than the boiling point of water. So, in that sense, the moon is indeed fiery!

The following http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=+Kahf+year&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all we have:
===
An-Nawwas b. Sam'an reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made a mention of the Dajjal one day in the morning. He sometimes described him to be insignificant and sometimes described (his turmoil) as very significant rand we felt) as if he were in the cluster of the date-palm trees. When we went to him (to the Holy Prophet) in the evening and he read (the signs of fear) in our faces, he said: What is the matter with you? We said: Allah's Messenger, you made a mention of the Dajjal in the morning (sometimes describing him) to be insignificant and sometimes very important, until we began to think as if he were present in some (near) part of the cluster of the datpalm trees. Thereupon he said: I harbour fear in regard to you in so many other things besides the Dajjal. If he comes forth while I am among on, I shall contend with him on your behalf, but if he comes forth while I am not amongst you, a man must contend on his own behalf and Allah would take care of every Muslim on my behalf (and safeguard him against his evil). He (Dajjal) would be a young man with twisted, contracted hair, and a blind eye. I compare him to 'Abd-ul-'Uzza b. Qatan. He who amongst you would survive to see him should recite over him the opening verses of Sura Kahf (xviii.). He would appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and would spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! adhere (to the path of Truth). We said: Allah's Messenger, how long would he stay on the earth? He said.. For forty days, one day like a year and one day like a month and one day like a week and the rest of the days would be like your days. We said: Allah's Messenger, would one day's prayer suffice for the prayers of day equal to one year? Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of time (and then observe prayer). We said: Allah's Messenger, how quickly would he walk upon the earth? Thereupon he said: Like cloud driven by the wind. He would come to the people and invite them (to a wrong religion) and they would affirm their faith in him and respond to him. He would then give command to the sky and there would be rainfall upon the earth and it would grow crops. Then in the evening, their posturing animals would come to them with their humps very high and their udders full of milk and their flanks stretched. He would then come to another people and invite them. But they would reject him and he would go away from them and there would be drought for them and nothing would be lef t with them in the form of wealth. He would then walk through the waste, land and say to it: Bring forth your treasures, and the treasures would come out and collect (themselves) before him like the swarm of bees. He would then call a person brimming with youth and strike him with the sword and cut him into two pieces and (make these pieces lie at a distance which is generally) between the archer and his target. He would then call (that young man) and he will come forward laughing with his face gleaming (with happiness) and it would at this very time that Allah would send Christ, son of Mary, and he will descend at the white minaret in the eastern side of Damscus wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he would lower his head, there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raise it up, beads like pearls would scatter from it. Every non-believer who would smell the odour of his self would die and his breath would reach as far as he would be able to see. He would then search for him (Dajjal) until he would catch hold of him at the gate of Ludd and would kill him. Then a people whom Allah had protected would come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he would wipe their faces and would inform them of their ranks in Paradise and it would be under such conditions that Allah would reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from amongst My servants such people against whom none would be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah would send Gog and Magog and they would swarm down from every slope. The first of them would pass the lake of Tibering and drink out of it. And when the last of them would pass, he would say: There was once water there. Jesus and his companions would then be besieged here (at Tur, and they would be so much hard pressed) that the head of the ox would be dearer to them than one hundred dinirs and Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would supplicate Allah, Who would send to them insects (which would attack their necks) and in the morning they would perish like one single person. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then come down to the earth and they would not find in the earth as much space as a single span which is not filled with their putrefaction and stench. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then again beseech Allah, Who would send birds whose necks would be like those of bactrin camels and they would carry them and throw them where God would will. Then Allah would send rain which no house of clay or (the tent of) camels' hairs would keep out and it would wash away the earth until it could appear to be a mirror. Then the earth would be told to bring forth its fruit and restore its blessing and, as a result thereof, there would grow (such a big) pomegranate that a group of persons would be able to eat that, and seek shelter under its skin and milch cow would give so much milk that a whole party would be able to drink it. And the milch camel would give such (a large quantity of) milk that the whole tribe would be able to drink out of that and the milch sheep would give so much milk that the whole family would be able to drink out of that and at that time Allah would send a pleasant wind which would soothe (people) even under their armpits, and would take the life of every Muslim and only the wicked would survive who would commit adultery like asses and the Last Hour would come to them. (Book #041, Hadith #7015) (Sahih Muslim)
===

Now there is a hue and cry regarding global warming. When Dajjal appears the surface temperature during a day like a month would appear to be like that of the moon. Where is the infidel technology to survive such a temperature for 15 days in one go and survive?

Hi Naseem!

I read your first post, and I have to say that I admire your courage in questioning some of Muhammad's choices; ie, his very young wife. It tells me that you're making reasonable observations, and that you aren't afraid to speak the truth if something isn't right.

I'm not afraid to speak the truth either, and yesterday you thought that I was putting you down when I shared my opinions about Muhammad - but I wasn't - I was simply questioning some of Muhammad's actions. So please don't take it personally.

Not only do I question the child Muhammad took for a wife, but I also question something else about him, and I was wondering if you had questions about this too.

Apparently, most of Muhammad's "revelations" came while he was having a seizure. Did you know that? And I don't know about you, but that sounds really odd to me. Doesn't that sound odd to you as well?

Peace to you.

Mohideen has stated that killing apostates is an acceptable part of his perfect religion. I commend his honesty.

All muslims who want to live under sharia law should come out and say so. Then they should be assisted into countries where they can live happily ever after under their horrible laws.

Those that actively work towards changing our laws to sharia law, either through violence or even peaceful means, should be charged with treason.

There is no way sharia law can be compatible with western laws and human rights. Let's just admit that we differ and LIVE SEPARATELY.

Now there is a hue and cry regarding global warming. When Dajjal appears the surface temperature during a day like a month would appear to be like that of the moon. Where is the infidel technology to survive such a temperature for 15 days in one go and survive?
Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 3, 2006 07:05 PM

Dajjal? You must mean Muhammad...I know full well that the earth was not boiling when Muhammad walked the earth--yes, he lived in a desert, but it wasn't that hot.

Don't try to argue logic while quoting apocolyptic literature--from any faith. Hopefully there aren't Christians who will start quoting Revelation...

I find it humerous that you state that 107°C is hot--the boiling point for water, yes...but not that hot in the cosmic scheme of things. Most flames burn much hotter. By the way, how do you know how hot it is on the moon anyway? Could it be that the West observed it through rational thought and science?

"When did JihadWatch turn into Dear Abby...."
-- from a posting above

Good question.

patriot2 posted : ya,107 isnt nothin,lived through many a day when it was HOTTER than 107 in Az

Are you sure? 107C is bloody hot - 224F.

Dear Abu:

Every morning of every day, I find that I have to take exactly 72 steps from my bed to my bathroom, then comb my hair exactly 32 times on the left, and 47 times on the right, then brush my teeth with 33 strokes on the lower right, 31 strokes on the lower left, 27 strokes on the upper right, and 40 strokes on the upper left -- before I can get my morning paper and sit down for my morning tea. Infidel doctors tell me that I have "OCD" (obsessive-compulsive disorder), but I'm not so sure. Should I try to stop doing these supposedly obsessive rituals every morning?

Worried and Wondering in the Morning

Dear WWM:

The Infidel doctors have it half right. You should indeed wean yourself away from all these pointless rituals you feel the need to do every morning -- and replace them with 1,001 other obsessive-compulsive rituals which our blessed prophet Mohammed (sallalahu aleyhi wasallam) decreed for us to do every day of our lives until the day of judgement.

Abu

mohideen,

you wrote: "When a non-Muslim reverts to Islam, all his / her sins including those punishable by death or life imprisonment as per his / her earlier faith are forgiven and the new Muslim starts a new life. That means, the Muslim Ummah would defend the new Muslim with all its might including waging war if his / her old co-religionists attempt to punish her / him."

How does your second sentence explain the meaning of the assertions in your first sentence? And which "old co-religionists" are attempting to punish whom?

and you continued:" Such being the case – that the whole Ummah would risk its annihilation to defend the new Muslim – how can there be objection to Islam decreeing death for an apostate?"

How does your rhetorical question follow from your foregoing assertion?

With such a poor understanding of logic, how can you be a (retired) Associate Professor of Computer Science at Framingham State College? You are an utter fool. How did you get tenure (Associate Professor)? Or did you, really? Or are you real?

Jehana,

If you read this thread, please jump right in and help us poor stupid infidels, and your fellow pious muslims: explain how there can (or can't) be an objection to death for an apostate from islam. Your fellow believer represents himself as an authority on your deen. Is he? Do you agree with mohideen, that death is an appropriate punishment for a (or some or any) muslim who chooses to leave the ummah?

Granny Weatherwax, you are really a sweet lady.

Naseem, as long as you are in the mood for questions, doesn't it seem to you so, well, like a MAN, to include in the Quran a verse that says no one should marry Mohammed's wives after his death? That seems to me to be so painfully transparent as a verse that a man would include, not that God would include.

Another verse that disturbs me is the one that Mohammed received when he was mad at his wives. Basically Allah says that if Mohammed's wives don't shape up, then maybe he will send Mohammed better and virgin wives. Does that ring true to you? Would God actually be involved in such a mundane issue? Would God actually deign to mention the virginity of said wives?

And speaking of which, Mohammed is often admired for marrying widows as if they are such used goods he was practically a saint for having agreed to marriage. Well, at least one of these widows, Hafsa, was an elderly 18. Boy, I bet she was hard to look at!

Good luck, Naseem. I don't envy your cultural baggage.

Infidel Question : How many intestines do infidels have?

Mohammad's Answer : Seven!
Sahih Muslim
Book 023, Number 5113:
Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying that a non-Muslim eats in seven intestines whereas a Muslim eats in one intestine.

Infidel Question : What happens if you fall asleep during prayer?

Mohammad’s Answer : Satan will urinate in your ear.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 2, Book 21, Number 245:
Narrated 'Abdullah :
A person was mentioned before the Prophet (p.b.u.h) and he was told that he had kept on sleeping till morning and had not got up for the prayer. The Prophet said, "Satan urinated in his ears."

Bar-

I'm sure Shaitan (Satan) can urinate in any Muslim's ears if Mohammad says so.

I'm also sure "the stars are missiles to hit devils with", as Mohammad, the perfect, also proclaimed.

This guy was way ahead of his time.

He should have been born in 700 A.D., at least!

When rotting meat was the birthplace of insects from spontaneous generation, witches and djinns tempted the foolish, and "the sun set in a muddy pool".

So perfect and brilliant that only a willful infidel dog would dare disagree with him.

Woof!

Infidel Question : How many intestines do infidels have?

Mohammad's Answer : Seven!
Sahih Muslim
Book 023, Number 5113:
Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying that a non-Muslim eats in seven intestines whereas a Muslim eats in one intestine.

Does this mean that if I were to become a muslim that I would lose my extra intestines?

That puts a whole new spin on biology.

L.Drummond

Naseem -

You earlier asked if Allah saw fit to punish you for questioning your faith by inflicting pain upon your husband. I find it very sad that you would think such a thing. I believe that you stated earlier that he almost died in the earthquake. Well, he did not die--while others did. Did the ones who perished (or their questioning wives) do something even more disturbing to deserve death? The fact is that bad things happen to good people--it has been that way for all time. Theologians have attempted to answer why for almost as long as religion has been around. The question, "if God is just, how can bad people be rewarded while good people receive torment?"

The Jews have had to ask this question for far longer and far more consistently than almost anyone else. The book of Job (the Muslim Ayyub) is probably the best testament for what the Jews perceive is the reason behind these trials. They believe that your faith is made stronger if held steadfastly through trying times and that there is indeed reward in the end if you maintain your faith.

Personally I feel that neither God not Satan sends the many awesome disasters that befall man. Science has told us many things about why such things occur. What is more for mankind to deal with is the constant trials that we bring upon ourselves. Why must people quarrel? Why must people commit wrongdoing when they know wrong from right? These are the true questions that are best answered through faith--unfortunately I feel that Islam causes more strife and turmoil today than any other source. Indeed, Muslims are told that it's good to suffer and good to die--must be a lot of good in the Muslim world then--so much that they like to share with others...I wish they wouldn't.

Ibramsha never did, and never will answer a direct question.

Whenever one tries to nail him he comes with some gobbledegook and a lot of pbuh-here and piss-on-him there.

For him, Islam is perfect: He doesn't dare question it, his whole miserable existence would become one big question and since these questions cannot be answered in the Koran, he doesn't ask the question in the first place.

He normally tries to cure his inquisitive bouts with black cumin-seed up his nose, if that doesn't work it's the milk from 'she-camels', and if all else fails camel-piss will do it. If its in the Koran and if the 'prophet' did it, then it can't be wrong.

And then you need uneven numbers of pebbles to wipe your anus, don't you use bones for that 'for bones are the foods of the jinn...'

and so on and so on....

Try to make sense of it? Don't bother. Don't panic: It's Islamic!

Eudaemon, dajjal is the muslim anti-christ.
http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/masdaj.html

Infidel Question : Where does Satan dwell at night?

Mohammad’s Answer : The upper part of a Moslems nose!

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 516:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "If anyone of you rouses from sleep and performs the ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blowing it out thrice, because Satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all the night."

Infidel Question : Are flies considered unclean by Moslems?

Mohammad’s Answer : No.

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."

Eudaemon, dajjal is the muslim anti-christ.
http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/masdaj.html
Posted by: Carolyn2 [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 3, 2006 11:32 PM

I know--to many Christians, Islam could be said to be the antichrist...so he shouldn't start a battle over whose apocolyptic mumbo jumbo is correct.

sheikh,

Yeah :), but at least every now and then, mohideen should be treated to the contempt he deserves.

Framingham State College. The sunuvabitch is right near Boston.

"...The sunuvabitch is right near Boston..."

Right!

Ready to make a citizens arrest and make sure the (subversive) creep is deported at once?

Sheik, I thought you were joking about camel piss. A li'l bit of kufr search and you are absolutely correct. There are many examples eulogising the virtues of camel urine.

However,
Sahih Bukhari-> Urine aka Medicine
..............many Muslims find the idea of drinking camel's urine to be repulsive; and, as a result, they reject this hadith,even though it is Muttafaq 'Alaih.

Furthermore, those Muslims who think that Muhammad was given miraculous scientific knowledge only give lip service to this hadith. They would never put camel urine to their lips and drink it themselves. This shows that they don't really believe the so-called miracle in their hearts. If they did, they would be asking to drink camel's urine whenever they were ill. Since they neither believe nor follow Muhammad's advice in this hadith, their verbal praise of Muhammad's miraculous medical knowledge rings hollow and hypocritical.

desi,

If you-re a Mohammedan & you have asthma or a belly-ache, have yourself some of that golden stuff!

Works every-time, just ask Mohideen!

He wouldn't lie to you!

Dearest brother of the Umma Mohideen,

Your sister says Assalamau-Laikumou & to all interested infedels,

Here is the reference to the moon being a fiery ball (i.e. a sun) that you asked for.

Tabari I:233 “I heard Ka'b the Rabbi tell a marvelous story about the sun and the moon. He said the sun and moon will be like two hamstrung oxen flung into hell.

“Ibn Abbas said: ‘You want me to tell you what I heard the Messenger say about the sun and moon and the beginning of creation and how things went with them.' We said, ‘We would.'”
“When the Messenger was asked about that, he replied, ‘When Allah was done with His creation and only Adam remained to be created,

He created two suns from the light of His Throne. His foreknowledge told Him that He would efface one and change it to a moon; so the moon is smaller in size than the sun.'”

“Muhammad continued, ‘If Allah had left THE TWO SUNS as He created them, night would not have been distinguishable from day. A fasting person would not know when he must fast. A woman would not know how to reckon the period of her impurity. Muslims would not know the time of the pilgrimage. Allah was too concerned with His slaves to do such a thing.”

Tabari I:234 “Allah thus sent Gabriel to drag his wing three times OVER THE FACE OF THE MOON, WHICH AT THE TIME WAS A SUN.

HE EFFACED ITS LUMINOSITY AND LEFT THE LIGHT IN IT. This is what Allah means: [in Qur'an 17:12] ‘We have blotted out the sign of the night, and We have made the sign of the day something to see by.' The blackness you can see as lines on the moon is a trace of the blotting.”

Could I respectfully ask the infidel to refrain from being crude or talk about the deportation of muslims.

Mohideen is a well respected teacher, and by all means exchange dialogue ...but there is no need to be rude to the 1st muslim that I have come across who will accept Ahmadis as muslims ...one that has brought significant understanding of Islam to this infedel blog.

This blog is all the better for it ...a bit of respect please.

The sun sets in a muddy environment & can only rise after permission from Allah (swt).
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM

Dear sister Naseem,

Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah

Consider the following Verse 86 of Chapter 18 of the Holy Quran from http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=18&mac=
===
Yusuf Ali 86: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
Shakir 86: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.
Pickthal 86: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
M. Khan 86: Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."
===

and

Verse 38 of Chapter 36 of the Holy Quran from http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=36&mac=
===
Yusuf Ali 38: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
Shakir 38: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.
Pickthal 38: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
M. Khan 38: And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.
===

and the explanation of Verse 38 of Chapter 36 of the Holy Quran given by the following Tradition from http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=prostrates+return&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
===
Narrated Abu Dhar: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38) (Book #54, Hadith #421) (Sahih Bukhari)
===

For an American living in San Fransisco the sun sets in the sea. However for an American living in Louisville, KY the sun sets on land. What? Sun sets in sea and also land??? The correct interpretation of Verse 86 of Chapter 18 of the Holy Quran is that Dhul Qarnain traveled west until he reached a sea shore. There was a spring of sea water, possibly a geyser from under the sea throwing water up.

Verse 38 of Chapter 36 of the Holy Quran and its explanation in the Tradition quoted above simply paraphrases the following:
===
The sun that rises from the east and sets in the west due to the rotation of the earth in its axis would reverse direction before the Day of Judgment. The rotation of the earth would be reversed; just before this reversal of the rotation of the earth, the permission to sun to continue its normal course would be denied. Because of this change in direction of rotation of the earth, the sun that used to rise in the east would rise in the west.
===

Does light travel in a straight line or along a curve? To a school child it travels in a straight line. To a theoretical physicist, as light gets bent by the black hole, it sometimes travels along a curve. Is it right to argue that the teacher in school is wrong? A teacher fashions his message in such a way that it would be understood by the listener. Same applies to God Almighty. The Verses and the Tradition quoted above were instantly understood by the Companions of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, when science was no where. Now that God Almighty has guided mankind to attain fine details about the universe, we interpret the above in the light of our enhanced knowledge. Light travels in a straight line for a kid, whereas it travels in a curve for the researcher.

Naseem,

Sorry but I just don't have any respect for people who want to forcibly enslave me and my family into their murderous deathcult or kill us all for refusing to join.

I understand that muslims believe themselves to be vastly superior to the Infidels and Jews and also that they believe they have the number one god on their side. They repeately use this as a basis for their murderous practices. And for that you demand respect? Respect is something you earn and not something you go around demanding from the very people that you and your fellow deathcult followers simply have no respect for at all and who they would murder in a heartbeat if any of us dared stand in the way of the spread of their cult's ideology.

What have you done to earn our respect? All I've seen you do here is apologize for mass murderers, make excuses for the most barbaric practices and behaviours literally seen anywhere on the entire planet, try to explain away the insane rantings of your so-called holymen, while reminding us all that we will someday be conquered and dominated and eventually forced to submit to the will of your satanic deathgod. For that you demand respect? Go to hell..

Oh and.. allah assum lickum to you too.

Mahdi

Tabari I:233 …
Tabari I:234 …
Posted by: Naseem at April 4, 2006 08:23 AM

Dear sister Naseem,

Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah.

Thanks for giving the references. Please see “7. Consistency: Ever present test of authenticity,” in http://spaces.msn.com/deentech/ The contents of the above two Traditions do not seem to violate any information (very small indeed) that I know. The above two describe the events during the ‘Big Bang’ and to my humble mind beyond the pale of science.

I try to restrict the field of Tradition to the ones given in ALIM CD. They are: Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawood, Muwatta, Tirmidhi, Qudsi, and Fiqh-us-Sunnah. This is just to save my time and not search for a Tradition with one of the posters in a place that I do not have immediate access. That is why; I try to give a link to the quotes if there is a link. The link could be opened and my quote could be verified.

In the ALIM CD I performed a search on – sun moon – which returned 41 Traditions: 28 from Sahih Bukhari, 4 from Sahih Muslim, none from Abu Dawood, 4 from Muwatta, 1 Tirmidhi, none from Qudsi, and 4 from Fiqh-us-Sunnah. None of them refer to the process of creating the sun and the moon as given in the Traditions given by you. From among the 41, I would like to present the following 4 Traditions in two groups.

From http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=eclipse+ibrahim+sun&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all we have:
===
(1) Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba: "The sun eclipsed in the life-time of Allah's Apostle on the day when (his son) ibrahim died. So the people said that the sun had eclipsed because of the death of ibrahim. Allah's Apostle said, "The sun and the moon do not eclipse because of the death or life (i.e. birth) of some-one. When you see the eclipse pray and invoke Allah." (Book #18, Hadith #153) (Sahih Bukhari)
(2) Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba : On the day of ibrahim's death, the sun eclipsed and the people said that the eclipse was due to the death of ibrahim (the son of the Prophet). Allah's Apostle said, "The sun and the moon are two signs amongst the signs of Allah. They do not eclipse because of someone's death or life. So when you see them, invoke Allah and pray till the eclipse is clear." (Book #18, Hadith #168) (Sahih Bukhari)
(3) Narrated Abu Bakra: In the life-time of the Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) the sun eclipsed and he went out dragging his clothes till he reached the Mosque. The people gathered around him and he led them and offered two Rakat. When the sun (eclipse) cleared, he said, "The sun and the moon are two signs amongst the signs of Allah; they do not eclipse because of the death of someone, and so when an eclipse occurs, pray and invoke Allah till the eclipse is over." It happened that a son of the Prophet called ibrahim died on that day and the people were talking about that (saying that the eclipse was caused by his death). (Book #18, Hadith #170) (Sahih Bukhari)
===

The above three Traditions show that even during a day in which his son died, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, desired to guide his followers to the right path.

From http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=sun+moon+folded&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
===
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The sun and the moon will be folded up (deprived of their light) on the Day of Resurrection." (Book #54, Hadith #422) (Sahih Bukhari)
===

The above Tradition possibly refers to the reverse of the Big Bang.

Allah knows best.

The earth is flat
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM

How are the worshippers aligned just next to the Holy Kabaa? In a circle. How are they aligned in the Masjid in Medina? In a straight line.

In mathematics, we derive the direction of a tangent by a process of finding the limit of the direction of two points on the curve as their distance becomes zero. The curve between two points on a curve very close to each other is a straight line.

When there were no satellite pictures and when the moon and the sun could be seen as circles, for a human without any aid, the earth is flat. This is because, a human cannot see beyond 5 miles or so due to the curvature of the earth. 5 miles compared to 5000 miles is indeed very small. Earth is flat at short distances, and is a sphere at long distances.

Again it is the question of a teacher using simple language to teach the student; it is not a question of ignorance of the teacher. How does light travel: straight or curved?

Dear Naseem,

you said :

Me, I am much afraid that hellfire is for me...it is why I perform dawa with much devotion, but I am afraid...and I keep thinking that Allah punished me for this by almost taking my shor Anwer away from me in the earthquake.

When I read this, I feel so sad ... that you are doing whatever you are doing (including dawa) because of your fear. And that you are in constant fear for punishment from your Allah.

It is so sad that you do not know the wonderful relationship that you can have with your Father in heaven. Jesus said:

"Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for a fish, will give a snake instead of a fish? Or if the child asks for an egg, will give a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (Injil, Luke 11:11-13).

Mohideen is a well respected teacher, and by all means exchange dialogue

Oh, for goodness' sake, Naseem, you've got ten times his brains. He bores me rigid.

You need to conquer your fear, stop being subservient, and trust your own ability to think things through.

But I waste my breath - you won't.

"He bores me rigid"

:D :D :D :D :D No kidding!!!

Naseem,

Do not be afraid to ask questions. You are doing the right thing by asking questions. You are truly searching for faith that lasts. Faith without asking questions is not truly faith at all. God Bless you and your quest.

Again it is the question of a teacher using simple language to teach the student; it is not a question of ignorance of the teacher. How does light travel: straight or curved?
Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 4, 2006 10:56 AM

Again you try to posit how enlightened Muhammad was by demonstrating phenomenon through Western knowledge and Western science. Try not to mix the two because you really don't know what you are talking about. If Muhammad had truly been that great a teacher he could have explained things a little better--I find it curious that people all seemed to know what he was talking about at the time, but once science proved the ideas wrong--you simply changed the premise of your argument. You are completely illogical--don't mix science and religion, for the two don't go hand in hand.

I could go on and on about thermodynamics and quantum theory, but it is not for me to disprove Muhammad...it is my interest that his believers keep their idiocy and closed-mindedness to themselves. By the way, you have Christians who will drone on endlessly about how the Bible is right and science can prove it...and it all amounts to them WANTING to find religon factual. The only indisputable is observable reality--something that science is concerned with. If you want to go on thinking that Allah is behind it all, then fine--but don't think for an instance that lame-brain ideas posited by an ignorant mind 1,400 years ago make sense, because they don't.

I'm not saying all answers have been found in science, because they have not...there are plenty of things that scientists still fail to understand--however they, unlike thelogians, don't attempt to fill in the gaps with nonsense. Allah rubbed the moon with a celestial eraser and made it dim? Do you realize how stupid this sounds?

Allah knows best.
Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

Does He?

He apparently was not aware that the earth appears flat only to us down here.

Wouldn’t the creator of heaven and earth understand this and convey it to us?
Or is this just further proof that Mohammad could not have been inspired by any deity?

The Holy Kabaa, Mohammad, Allah

Monotheism in Islam, means one god at a time.

Allah (SWT) will forgive our past sins when we convert, but is this done only once? For example if one converts...can he/she deconvert...perform a sin and then reconvert to have this sin removed?
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM

Let us consider two Verses of the Holy Quran and their implications. From http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2&mac= we have:
===
6.60: It is He who doth take your souls by night, and hath knowledge of all that ye have done by day: by day doth He raise you up again; that a term appointed be fulfilled; In the end unto Him will be your return; then will He show you the truth of all that ye did.
===
and from http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=39&translator=2&mac= we find:
===
39.42: It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.
===

Let us consider the case of Salman Rushdie of the ‘Satanic Verses’ fame. He was a born Muslim. Sometime later, he renounced his faith and authored ‘Satanic Verses’. The Iranian clerics passed a fatwa of death on him. After a few years of living the life of a fugitive, he embraced Islam. He expected the fatwa to be eradicated. However nothing of that sort happened. Possibly because he wanted the security offered by the authorities again, he renounced Islam. He is living the life of a fugitive now. Can he embrace Islam again? Surely! When he does so, would his sins be forgiven? Yes, definitely.

ALLAH SWT knew his leaving Islam the first time when he slept that night after leaving Islam. ALLAH SWT knew that he came back to Islam, and again left Islam on the respective nights.

What about the one who being a Muslim desires to commit a crime and for that purpose renounces Islam, commit the crime, and then immediately embrace Islam again? The answer is found in http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=68&translator=2&mac=
===
68.17: Verily We have tried them as We tried the People of the Garden, when they resolved to gather the fruits of the (garden) in the morning.
68.18: But made no reservation, ("If it be Allah.s Will").
68.19: Then there came on the (garden) a visitation from thy Lord, (which swept away) all around, while they were asleep.
68.20: So the (garden) became, by the morning, like a dark and desolate spot, (whose fruit had been gathered).
68.21: As the morning broke, they called out, one to another,-
68.22: "Go ye to your tilth (betimes) in the morning, if ye would gather the fruits."
68.23: So they departed, conversing in secret low tones, (saying)-
68.24: "Let not a single indigent person break in upon you into the (garden) this day."
68.25: And they opened the morning, strong in an (unjust) resolve.
68.26: But when they saw the (garden), they said: "We have surely lost our way:
68.27: "Indeed we are shut out (of the fruits of our labour)!"
68.28: Said one of them, more just (than the rest): "Did I not say to you, 'Why not glorify ((Allah))?'"
68.29: They said: "Glory to our Lord! Verily we have been doing wrong!"
68.30: Then they turned, one against another, in reproach.
68.31: They said: "Alas for us! We have indeed transgressed!
68.32: "It may be that our Lord will give us in exchange a better (garden) than this: for we do turn to Him (in repentance)!"
68.33: Such is the Punishment (in this life); but greater is the Punishment in the Hereafter,- if only they knew!
===

In the above Verses Allah SWT preempted the evil persons. Likewise Allah SWT might take the life of that wicked person who left Islam on the night before he commits the crime. In that case, that person loses Paradise and is put in Hell. If Allah SWT has sanctioned the crime, He might allow the person to commit the crime and take the life of the criminal before the criminal becomes a Muslim again. Well, Allah SWT might indeed allow that person to become a Muslim again after committing the crime. If that person manages to become a Muslim again all his past sins would of course be forgiven. In all the three cases above, Allah SWT has the power to sanction them. ALLAH is the ultimate and He does what He chooses.

However once the Khilafath is established, it is expected that the apostate would be immediately imprisoned and released only if he embraces Islam again. If he refuses to embrace Islam again, he should be killed. This is to avoid chaos in society.

There is no contradiction in the paragraphs above. One describes the power of Allah SWT and the next describes the obligation of the Caliph.

Yojimbo,

Do not feel bad, I have a hare time understanding " the teacher ". Puts me to sleep.

Well, as Buggs Bunny used to sing, "I dream of Jeannie. She's a light brown hare."

However, I supposed "the teacher" could do something more useful - such as memorize the telephone directory.

Brother of the Umma Mohideen,

Assalamau Laikum,

I want to thank you (unlike many of the ungrateful infedel) of the efforts that you have put in to try & answer my questions. You may well have taken much time and pleasure I hope to do your research. Brother Mohideen I am grateful for this and may Allah SWT make you a better muslim for it.

I must be honest though that unfortunately the answers themselves have not helped me much.

Many of the answers given do not satisfy me. I am no scientist, but for example, I think there is no real scientific evidence that the moon was ever a fiery ball (i.e. the moon was a sun as explained in Tabiri)...even at the big bang.
Can you see how I am so confused?

With respect to the sun setting in muddy waters you said "Dhul Qarnain traveled west until he reached a sea shore. There was a spring of sea water, possibly a geyser from under the sea throwing water up." ...and therefore he saw the sun set in muddy waters.

BUT THIS IS FROM OUR KORAN...our perfect book. I suppose what I am asking is "why did Allah not tell Mohd (saw) that the sun never sets?"...instead this observation has been included in as if the sun was *seen* to set & it was put in the Koran. Our Holy Koran is there to educate 1 billion+ people....do people REALLY belive that the sun sets...we know & you know that it doesn't.

Perhaps the real meaning to this is something different...maybe a lot more ABSTRACT but I am without the noor to see it.

Can you see how I am so confused?

My brother, daily I punish myself with doubt and recently since Anwer was ill I have prayed 5 times a DAY. Further I have promised to go to Hajj, but the muslim in Saudi will not let the Ahmadi go to Hajj.

Dearest brother, verily I am confused in mind, the muftis I talk to here know less than I.

My brother, be sure though that I will continue & find meaning but through abstraction...for looking through science does not help.

Allah give me strength to continue my abstract search & to continue dawa of our almost perfet religion.

Mohideen said: "If that person manages to become a Muslim again all his past sins would of course be forgiven. In all the three cases above, Allah SWT has the power to sanction them. ALLAH is the ultimate and He does what He chooses."

So Allah decides if a person should die, but expects his followers to act in his stead. If He is, indeed, all powerful--why does he rely on people to carry out His laws for Him? Use logic my friend...

You want truth? Muhammad wrote a bunch of jibberish down, you believe that the jibberish was sent by God. Therefore, if I can disprove the existence of God, then it would prove that Muhammad was a delusional liar--ah but the quandry is I would be saying that Jesus was a liar too (which I have no reason to do since HIS followers do me no harm). Also, even when faced with proof, you would be blind to it and say that I am trying to trick you away from your faith.

Traditionally scientists have not even approached the issue of whether or not God exists--why? Because it is up to the person who poses a statement to defend it and to present evidence of it.

For instance, you say that the moon sets in a pool--science has observed that the sun does not set, but the earth turns making it appear that the sun is moving. So you attempt to show that Muhammad was right by saying, "well, it appears to set--that is what he meant." Whatever... Then you go on by saying that if there are two dots close togehter on a curved line then the line is straight--no it's not, it's still curved my friend. Even a moron takes it for granted that the Earth is curved--but when Allah said it was flat, he was just saying this for demonstration purposes.

I'm reminded of a Monty Python skit--I believe it was in the Holy Grail... Arthur was asked how it could be that coconuts were "found" in England. Arthur is forced to explain how by INVENTING a story--which is easily proved false. So instead of saying that the story is indeed silly, he has to compound the silliness of the argument by inventing further. This is what you are doing my friend--Muhammad came up with the silly proposition to begin with and left it up to you to try and explain it. Keep explaining my friend, it makes you look all the more foolish.

Naseem

You don’t need the Haji or praying the same thing five times a day, what you need comes from the Prince of Peace, the King of Glory, a real peace, a real love, the real truth, not some morally corrupt fiction.

Naseem, Allah cannot grant you anything, because he does not have power to do so. He is powerless to save because he is a counterfeit god, and his prophet is a counterfeit prophet. Mohammad never spoke to Allah and never truly knew God Almighty's plan for the redemption of humanity through the shed-blood of His Son, Jesus.

The true way to know God is through Christ Jesus, not through praying five times a day and reading the koran endlessly. There is no way that human effort can save you. Fighting and dying in a jihad only leads to hell, not eternal paradise. Only God's grace through a perfect sacrifice can save.

Read what Isaiah 53 says:

5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7: He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

This was written over 600 years before the birth of Jesus, but it explains clearly that our transgressions and iniquities can be "healed," NOT by anything that we can do, but through that which Christ did FOR US.

Except this free gift, and everything will become clear to you.

Naseem, also our Bible says this in I Corinthians 14:33:

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

and, in James 3:16 it says:

"For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work."

Confusion does not come from God. If your readings cause confusion in your heart and mind, then it cannot come from God. God wants you to know him, his will for your life (the one that he created specifically for you, and no one else), and he wants to end the confusion you are experiencing.

Naseem,

As the LORD has said through Isaiah; " All you who are thirsty, come to the water! "
( Isaiah 55 : 1 ) It is the God of the Bible that is helping you to ask the needed questions. This is a sign of a person who is searching. Keep up with the asking, be at peace, God loves you and God Bless.

Yojimbo,

Your sense of humor with how you worked with my typos such as " hare " instead of hard made my day/night.

Yojimbo,

Even if " the teacher " read a telephone book, I would stilled by board to sleep.

if there are two dots close togehter on a curved line then the line is straight--no it's not, it's still curved my friend.
Posted by: Eudaemon at April 4, 2006 04:21 PM

Please see http://www.answers.com/tangent&r=67. For immediate reference, we quote:
===
tangent, in mathematics.
…For other curves and surfaces the tangent line at a given point P is defined as the limiting position, if such a limit exists, of a secant line through P and another point P′ on the curve or surface as P′ is allowed to approach P…
===

I said the same thing in my words. The attempt by you and others is already - 1400 years back - commented upon as below. From http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=9&translator=2&mac=
===
9.32: Fain would they extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
===

Islam is the true religion. Come to it and benefit.

You've been handed keys to doors Mohideen, yet you persist in letting islam compel you to bang your head against the wall. Truly sad and pathetic. A waste of G*d's gift of intellect.

tangent, in mathematics.
…For other curves and surfaces the tangent line at a given point P is defined as the limiting position, if such a limit exists, of a secant line through P and another point P′ on the curve or surface as P′ is allowed to approach P…
===

9.32: Fain would they extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
===

Islam is the true religion. Come to it and benefit.
Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 4, 2006 10:50 PM

In mathematics a curved line is straighter and straighter as two points along that line grow closer and closer--this is your argument? They are never straight my friend--being close to straight is like being almost pregnant--either you are or you aren't.

It is true that it is sometimes useful to approximate curves as straight lines in mathematics. The same goes for certain laws of physics--we approximate gravitational pull as zero at certain distances depending on mass--but it is never zero at any distance for any mass. And I think you are saying that it was perfectly OK for Muhammad to approximate when describing the earth...but Muhammad did not say, "the earth is round, but for the purpose of this argument we shall say it is flat"--he said that it is flat.

You can't see it, but you are TRYING TO FIND a reason that Muhammad said what he did, because you cannot accept that he could have been wrong. What you are, in fact, saying is this: "sure the earth is not flat, but to an observor who only sees a little piece of it, it appears to be." This may explain why he THOUGHT it was flat--but it does not prove that it is or that Muhammad was correct in saying it is. Just admit he was wrong or that he was misinterpreted or that his words were not written down correctly (that there is at least some form of error in your texts) and we'll move on.

As far as the second statement...it seems that you are saying that Allah said that some people would not believe truth even though it is perfect...but as I've stated before the only certainty in this world is objective reality--though philosophers may even dispute this. Besides, when it comes to religion, there is NO OBJECTIVE truth. This is because certain things are accepted on faith alone. This is why it is pointless for me to ask you to prove that God exists.

Look, I could say something like, "years ago people lived on Mars and that because it grew hot with global warming from centuries of burning fossil fuels, Allah saw fit to see that the two last survivors were given Earth, so they and all the animals of Mars rode a spaceship to Earth--but with the proposition that we should take care of the earth and not allow global warming to happen again." See that I'm simply twisting the Biblical story of the flood to modern sensibilities--some people who are gullible would probably accept it as fact. And I could claim that it is true and claim to be a prophet...But by merely telling others to disprove that it happened and by not accepting their arguments or evidence to the contrary, it does not mean that I am correct. Believe it or not, similar doomsday prophesy was told during the cold war about nuclear energy by a few charlatans.

There have been many charlatans throughout history--most, thank goodness, were not believed. But still others were convincing enough to be believed...

Do I think that morality is important--yes. Do I think that generosity and kindness and peace and love for all are wonderful ideals--absolutely. Am I a prophet for saying that they are--no. Do I think you should accept that others may have their reasons for not believing the Qur'an is perfect (nevermind that they may be happy with their own religion or not having a religion at all)--I'm sure you know my answer. You see, it does not bother me that you believe what you do. You could go on believing that the earth is flat for all I care. But Muslims should not attempt to alter my society or my way of life by taking away my freedom to believe or disbelieve (or treating me differently for doing so). Maybe along with my believing that the earth is not flat or that the moon is not a fiery ball or that the Jews did not create or spread Aids or that the Jews do not have an earthquake machine--I just might believe that Islam doesn't seem all that peaceful and that it doesn't seem all that divinely inspired.

Naseem --

Good to see you questioning.

Is fear of hell the main thing that drives you to stay with Islam? In one of your posts you mentioned fear of hell. Hell's punishment is quite often mentioned in the Quran of course. Do you stay in Islam because of fear of punishment? If you don't know the answer to that question, you might avoid a lot of trouble by asking yourself that question when you are alone. Because fear of something is of course not sufficient reason to be loyal to it. That point may be "obvious" to you, but I put it out there just in case, since people who are really controlled by fear are often too afraid to even admit to themselves that they are controlled by fear. They think that even to consider such a possibility could bring about some dreaded punishment. Especially if one imagines that the power one is afraid of patrols the inner recesses of one's mind the way guards patrol the inside of a concentration camp.

Is it not troubling to you that Islam relies so much on fear and force? Fear that is so deeply penetrating because the Quran presents God as having us under surveillance that would be the envy of every dictator, to see into our every private thought! But what if God is not like a dictator or the commandant of a concentration camp? The philosopher Nicholas Baerdaev pointed out that earthly dictators during the course of history had often corrupted God's intimations and made God appear in the dictators' image. Baerdaev helped smash that idol by insisting on the experience of God's substance as freedom and love. But never mind that, my point is not at all to advocate for any theology.

Let me ask it this way. Wouldn't you rather be a part of Islam through KNOWING it to be the truth, and not because you are fearful it MIGHT be? That you question suggests you care more about truth than about fear. Therefore, allow me to mention a book like Snapping. It is a book with concrete descriptions of how some people, because of fear and hope and desire, have slowly given up their own hearts and minds to the control of various groups. Consider reading it, and find any other interesting books you can about the way cults work, how they manipulate the mind through fear and other psychological methods. That way you can make sure your engagement with Islam is based more on truth, not on fear and dishonorable enslavement. It seems to me there is no honor in obeying someone merely because one is terrified of punishment.

Have you ever looked at www.faithfreedom.org? (Not to be confused with faithfreedom.com, which is a Muslim website.)

-Omar

Assalamau-laikum all,

I have found this thread probably the most interesting in the 2 years I have been here. This has been brought about particularly by my Umma brother Mohideen in the mix.

Even though I am muslim, in the two years here I could NEVER bring about the deep type of Islamic viewpoint that my brother brings...so please Mohideen continue posting and thank you...may Allah SWT look upon you with much favour!

I know that you are true to our faith Mohideen and conservative...which is why I find it most interesting that questions raised by me were answered by you using (in the main) infedel developed science.

I compared your arguments to the excellent post provided by Eudaemon above. For ME the really telling thing was when he pointed out that "Muhammad did not say, "the earth is round, but for the purpose of this argument we shall say it is flat"--he said that IT IS FLAT.

My brother, Mohideen surely you will agree that the Koran is very decisive in every point, No where in it does it say in style or content "as an approximation to this assume that"

IT STATES THAT THIS IS SO AND THAT IS SO...END OF ARGUMENT...

SO.... PHEW .... HERE I GO ....POSSIBLY MAKING THE IMPORTANT STATEMENT IN MY LIFE (and perhaps condeming me to hellfire).

I THINK THAT SOME STATEMENTS OF THE KORAN ARE NOT TRUE.

This maybe because of interpetration on my part ....but even conservative muslims like and and the muftis say the same thing...so I don't know.....I just don't know....my head is spinning.

Brother Mohideen, ...let me say here & now that I AM STILL MUSLIM...and believe in ALLAH with all my might.....but I think it's OK to admit that the holy Koran is not perfect...that Mohd (saw) got a few things wrong.....I think admitting this infact makes me A BETTER MUSLIM.

The thing that I really fear (and still believe is that) once a muslim then Allah SWT incarinates you always as a muslim...and that because of my doubts I maybe condemned to hellfire for all eternity....

Allah SWT please forgive my forwarding and my big mouth!

Brother Mohideen I beg you to please still talk to me....and tell me more about punishments I may incur...

Do I think you should accept that others may have their reasons for not believing the Qur'an is perfect (nevermind that they may be happy with their own religion or not having a religion at all)
Posted by: Eudaemon at April 5, 2006 02:19 AM

Here is the answer from the Holy Quran itself. From http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=2&mac= we have:
===
Yusuf Ali 2.256: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
Shakir 2.256: There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
Pickthal 2.256: There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
M. Khan 2.256: There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghoot and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.
===

The right path is Islam. As regards my thinking that ‘the Holy Quran is perfect,’ please see “6. A test of our understanding of Islam,” in my blog http://spaces.msn.com/deentech/

Brother of the Umma, Mohideen,

I read "6" on your impressive blog. It said

"If any Muslim feels that there is some inconsistency between a part of the Holy Quran and another part, it simply shows that the understanding of that person with regard to Islam is lacking."

Agreed...

Such a person must devote as much time as possible to study Islam until he / she understands that the apparent inconsistency is resolved.

This is difficulty for me! No matter how much I study....I cannot get away from Koran inaccuracies.....they just won't go away. If something is round, it cannot be flat. I DON'T KNOW HOW to resolve this. Your help in this regard will be helpful.

You say "A point to make now is that if any feels there is inconsistency do not blame self or others, but attempt further study and that Doubts when cleared lead to knowledge".

Unfortunately more reading is leading to further doubts in my mind.

You say "There is no harm in getting doubts".

Wow...that's a relief.

Mohideen now has the brass, chutzpah, gall, and temerity to claim he supports "no compulsion in religion" after he only just supported the death penalty for people who leave Islam (see one of his early posts above). He also says Saudi Arabia should be kept free of any religion but his own, and we all know he means compulsion is okay there. Wonder how many other contradictions are to be found in you Mohideen, O worshipper of unproved violent dogma?

Furthermore, 2:256 "There is no compulsion in religion" is, according to many Muslim scholars, cancelled/abrogated by intolerant verses in Chapter 9, produced long after Chapter 2. Following are three examples of Chapter 9 Quran verses that show Islam's lethal compulsion in religion. We tolerate this stuff at our own risk. Deportation is a perfectly valid consideration with regard to the repulsive kind of person who believes in these verses (click on the link for a verse if you want to see three different translations of it):

Chapter 9, Verse 5: Murder idolaters until they join Islam

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Chapter 9, Verse 29: Make war on Jews and Christians until they agree to be second-class citizens subject to legal and social discrimination and humiliation (unless they convert to Islam)
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Chapter 9, Verse 123: Make war on non-Muslims
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

Sure, Islam means no compulsion in religion. And I've got a great deal on some swamp land in Florida. What's that? Your not buying? Well, neither am I.

Muslims who believe what the Quran actually says are arrogant theofascists waiting to be taught some manners, but it would be better to just deport these Chapter 9 believers and forbid further immigration to the West of Muslims, at least if we want liberal democracy to survive.
-Omar

Naseem,

I think you fear leaving a religion that you know in your heart that is ridiculous because of the danger you will face should you leave it. You are obviously an intelligent, thinking person, and that is a dangerous combination to islam.

If you truly believe in the koran, then you need to fear hell fire continuously. There is no promise of heaven/paradise for you in it, unless you die in the process of killing people in the name of allah (to be "martyred"). Otherwise, you will go to your grave unsure if you will make it to heaven/paradise or hellfire.

The problem with Mohammad's definition of "martydom" is that it is a false one. A martyr does not kill others because of their belief in God. A martyr is one who suffers persecution because of their belief in God, by those who demand that the believers deny and turn from their belief.

The Christian so-called "apostates" who are threatened and suffer death in islamis states are truely martyrs. They are faithful unto the end as commanded by Christ Jesus. The hijackers who flew the airliners into the "Twin Towers" are NOT martyrs, and they are burning in hell.

Mohammad's definition of "martyrdom" is an abomination of the truth. The teaching in the koran that you know is wrong, that you KNOW is false are an ABOMINATION. This:

"If any Muslim feels that there is some inconsistency between a part of the Holy Quran and another part, it simply shows that the understanding of that person with regard to Islam is lacking."

Is UTTERLY ABSURD, and you know in your mind that it is! If something is inconsistent and flies in the face of the truth and reason, then it simply shows that your heart and mind have grasped understanding that THIS "SOMETHING" is false! God is NOT the author of confusion. He does not want your blind, dumb obedience. He wants you to know Him, His Truth, and His Promises, and His Salvation.

Naseem, you will never resolve the Qur'an and its bad math.

Infidel Question : How does inheritance work in Islamic law?

Allah's answer : When a man dies leaving 3 daughters, 2 parents and 1 wife.
His daughters get 67%, his parents get 33% and his wife gets 12.5% which according to infidel knowledge equals 112.5%. Or a man leaves, 1 wife, 1 mother and 2 sisters, the mother gets 33%, the wife gets 25% and the sisters get 67%, which according to infidel math now equals 125%. (Sura 4:11-12,4:176) ( Islamic math, 2 + 2 = 5 )

Naseem, The God of the Christians loves you today, you can not earn His love, it is His free gift to you. He cares for you so much, he knows the number of hairs on your head.

Does Allah know how many hairs are on your head? And if he did, could we trust his math?

Doesn't it make more sense that your creator would love you unconditionally, in Islam this love is earned, which by definition makes Allah neither merciful nor compassionate.
Why would Allah prescribe mercy for himself? Isn't he God? Is Allah claiming to be an offender, that needs mercy?

When I read these posts on issues dealing with the Quran, I sense there are a lot of contradictions in it. Just in one of the above posts, in chapter 9, it is read a number of contradictions when it comes to in relationship to not forcing non-Muslims then saying the Muslims must go to war against the non-Muslims until they become Muslim. It is contradictions like these shows there are contradictions in the Muslim community.

- Mohideen

I feel you need to understand a bit more about proper logical arguments, how they should be posed and "inherent" results.

When forming arguments there are two ways in which you can argue--you can either use deductive or inductive reasoning. In case you don't know what these are, allow me to explain:

In order to use the deductive method, you must start with axioms, or general statements regarded as fact. Then you use these statements for which to argue their results--if your axioms are true, then everything that follows can be argued to be true. This method can be used in philosophy to a great degree because of the nature of man being somewhat predictable--I mean we are people, so everyone must know what it's like to be a person, right? However, when used to explain nature and the world or universe that surrounds us, there is far too much that we don't understand to form a generally accepted fact.

For example, Aristotle devised a method of scientific investigation using deductive reasoning. He would usually start with knowledge already accepted as fact--by reviewing former research done before him. He would then introduce his own arguments and solutions based on these accepted truths. But, as is often in science, if former research was faulty--his arguments would be faulty as well. Aristotle's arrogance was compounded when he would attempt to refute others' claims by deducing that results were obsurd (reductio ad absurdum--reducing something to absurdity). However, often when an opponent would use this same kind of argument against him, it made him and his students angry.

The alternative to deductive reasoning is inductive reasoning. This starts with observations of nature. If an idea conflicts with what happens in nature, the idea must be changed or thrown out. It follows that as more and more observations are made then the resulting arguments based on them will have a better foundation and become generally accepted. This method has come to be known as the scientific method, and it has given rise to many simple, yet powerful statements about how nature works.

When you argue that a religion is correct--you begin with the premise that it is fact and then you attempt to support it with evidence. This can lead to horrendous falsities. Science was convinced that the earth was the center of the solar system for centuries--not only because religion told us so, but because people like Aristotle said it was so. Even when faced with evidence to the contrary--religious authorities refuted the validity of any other argument. The Catholic Church refused to acknowledge that Galileo could have been right, and declared him a heretic. This is a huge danger inherent in religion imposing its viewpoint on humanity or in religion having authority to enforce its own dogma. It fails to acknowledge that differing viewpoints may be correct (it lacks humility).

Deductive reasoning can be used very effectively to argue the existence of God--and I will concede the POSSIBILITY of the existence of God due to the numerous seemingly valid arguments presented. In fact, most scientists are not athiests, despite what many religious adherents or secular humanists think. And I refuse to think that Islam cannot be reformed since Christianity was once dominated by religious authority and, thereby, strongly enforced dogmatic viewpoints, while now Christianity allows a plethora of ideas to exist.

I also will not regard Islam as not having value or that Muslims lack the ability to create or to invent (though it is difficult to hold this view if you review just about any list of scientific discoveries or great inventions). I feel the greatest reason for Muslims being held back in this regard is the lack of proper education and the lack of an Islamic reformation--and this is not a result of colonialism, as much as Muslim figureheads would like their followers to believe. In fact, Muslims display a great deal of drive and commitment and the number of Muslim professionals exposes any sort of conclusion about any lack of capacity for them to learn as a complete falacy. However, for as long as democracies in the Middle East (Iraq included) revert to simply voting in religious despots who would enforce dogma in the same fashion as the Catholic Church prior to reformation, the trend for conservatives and liberals alike to say that Islam cannot support true freedom (academic freedom included) will continue. And yes, this could continue to hold back the Muslim world from contributing to the advancement of mankind.

Also being a woman ...our's prophet's (pbuh) marriage to Aiesha at the age of 6 disturbs me greatly....was there a need for this? Many muslims I have spoken to lie and say she was 18 but the Hadith clearly talk about her playing with dolls. Allah forgive my need to question this.
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM

Dear sister Naseem,

Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah.

Before I attempt to answer the above question, permit me to answer the following question:

How could Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, adopt a person as his son, get him married, and then after that son divorces his wife, marry her? How could a father marry his own daughter-in-law?

There are two issues involved in the above question:
1. Is adoption the same as begetting a child?
2. Can a father marry the divorced / widowed wife of his son?

The answer to the second question above is an emphatic no on the basis of 4:23 from http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=2&mac=
===
4:23 Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-
===

See that there is no restriction regarding sex between the son and his ex-wife. Even if the son has not had any sex with his ex-wife, the father is forbidden to marry her. Please notice the contrast with regard to the daughter of an ex-wife.

Still Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, married the wife of his adopted son after she completed the waiting period. This is to establish without any shred of doubt that an adopted child is not the same as a biological child.

Now let us turn to the marriage between mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her, and Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. He did infact marry her when she was 6 years old and consummated the marriage when she was 9 years old. Did he marry her of his own desire? No. It was preordained as from http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=true+twice+dream&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
===
Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle said (to me), "You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, 'If this dream is from Allah, He will cause it to come true.' " (Book #62, Hadith #15) (Sahih Bukhari)
===

Why did he do that? Can this quote be a pointer? From http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/07/20040716-11.html we have:
===
U.S. law enforcement has documented cases of Latvian girls trafficked into sexual slavery in Chicago, or Ukrainian girls trafficked in Los Angeles, and Maryland, or Thai, Korean, Malaysian and Vietnamese girls trafficked in Georgia, or and Mexican girls trafficked in California, New Jersey and here in Florida. Many of the victims are teenagers, some as young as 12 years old.
===

In a world where a teenage girl is forced into sex, what would be the plight of a teenage wife? After all everyone agrees that sex with one’s wife is legal. What happens if that wife is pre-pubescent? To give guidance to Muslims regarding such pre-pubescent wives, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, married mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her, at the age of six and consummated the marriage when she reached puberty at the age of nine. The derived rules are:
1. No sex with a pre-pubescent wife.
2. As legal sex is permitted with wife or which the right hand possesses only, absolutely no sex with any pre-pubescent girl.
3. For the current world, no child sex at all.

Doesn’t Allah know that mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her, would come of age when she becomes nine years old? Why can’t she be married then so that the waiting is not there? If such were the case, there would be no guidance regarding the pre-pubescent orphan girls without any relative who just cannot marry her like father, uncle, or brother. Remember that Islam never allows a girl to be a destitute whatever be the age. Thus, a pre-pubescent orphan girl could be married by a Muslim to give her shelter. Such a husband should wait her puberty to commence to have sex with her.

Alright, if we need a rule stating that no sex with a pre-pubescent girl even if she is a wife, why marry at the age of six? Why not eight? The answer is that it is a demonstration of the prophetic nature of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

It should be understood that a girl could reach puberty at any age. From http://youngest_mother.tripod.com/ we have:
===
… When her child was born by Caesarean section in May 1939, Medina made medical history, and is still the youngest known mother in the world.
… Doctor Lozada has conducted very detailed studies since the diagnostic of pregnancy which aroused much curiosity in the country; he took an x-ray of the child and her baby, established a diagnostic of the fetal situation, observed the state of functionality of the little mother who had begun menstruating at the age of 8 months. …
===

Consider the emotional state of the husband who cannot have sex with his wife as she is not yet ready biologically. It is better to keep this period of agony as small as possible. Here the Arabic language plays a part. In Arabic there are words for the singular, dual, and the plural. If Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, married mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her, at the age of seven, the word used would correspond to the dual; if at the age of eight the word would represent the singular. The minimum number of years that mandates the use of the word for plural in Arabic is three. Thus, to a believer, this marriage at the age of six to a pre-pubescent girl, and the waiting of three years mandating the plural so that in future husbands of pre-pubescent girls wait for any number of years before having sex with their wives is indeed a demonstration of prophesy. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, has lived by his prophesy.

Allah knows best.

you are a conservative muslim
Posted by: Naseem at April 3, 2006 10:58 AM

Dear sister Naseem,

Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmathullah.

I believe I have attempted to answer all the questions raised by you at 10.58 am on April 3, 2006.

Kindly do not add any adjective to any Muslim. I am a Muslim; nothing more, nothing less Inshah Allah. Kindly permit me to repeat: do not splinter the Ummah by using adjectives like conservative, liberal, modern, Hanafi, Shafee, Maliki, Ahmadi etc. We are one Ummah and we are Muslims.

A number of personal works might keep me occupied for a number of days. Until then, may Allah SWT help you in your dawa.

Was Salaam

"A number of personal works might keep me occupied for a number of days."
-Mohideen Ibramsha at April 5, 2006 04:52 PM

Personal works? Remember to stay away from any radio frequency sources while you're working on those projects.

...on second thought, naa. Go ahead and make a cell phone call. Just make sure your neighbors are on vacation first.

Mohideen said: "U.S. law enforcement has documented cases of Latvian girls trafficked into sexual slavery in Chicago, or Ukrainian girls trafficked in Los Angeles, and Maryland, or Thai, Korean, Malaysian and Vietnamese girls trafficked in Georgia, or and Mexican girls trafficked in California, New Jersey and here in Florida. Many of the victims are teenagers, some as young as 12 years old."

If you don't mind my asking--what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Stay germain, please. Why do Muslims attempt to excuse bad behavior by demonstrating that it happens in the West--don't you think we consider it bad?

If you are trying to argue that Muhammad was being kind to the girl by marrying her and having sex with her when she was nine, you are crazy. Why couldn't she be adopted? Was she not still a child? Should she not still have been raised as one? And you go on to say that Muhammad was forced to in order to fulfill a silly prophesy? Why was she married to his adopted son anyway? Well--heck, I sort of like this whole prophet idea...I could probably have lots of prophesies that would make it all right to have loads of sex with as many people as I want and live as debauched and depraved as I want--oh yeah, except that I have morals and it would be WRONG.

Naseem,

You are correct to be dubious of the actions and motives of ANY man who would take a child as Mohammad did, and de-flower her as he did. Mohammad was wrong, and his actions with Aisha were abominable.

Mohideen's "legal" explanation of it is disgusting and tasteless to me, and I'd think they would be to any civilized, thinking person. The very idea that a child can be taken sexually by a man when she starts to menstruate (which Mohideen suggests as when she can "properly" be taken by a man for sexual purposes) is utterly barbaric.

Naseem, your instincts are correct in this matter. A man who would take a little girl to be HIS sexually is a man who is to be dispised. Menstruating or not, a little girl at the age of nine (and still playing with dolls) is not ready physically or emotionally to engage in sexual intercourse with a grown man. Mohideen can try to explain it all in islamic legalese, but he can't explain away what is true.

You know in your heart and mind what is true. I pray that you will continue to pursue the truth. Keep seeking what is true, and when you find it, embrace the truth.

Ibramsha (as always) 'protects' the cult and the pervert 'prophet'.

Is it not a fact that the late Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran, when he came to power, reduced the age of marriage for girls to 9, to be in line with the pedophiles 'teachings?' And is it not a fact that his 9 year old child 'wive' died while giving birth?

Ibramsha, In typical Mohammedan fashion tries to justify this perversion with sex-trafficing from former east-bloc countries or Asian nations where the practice is common, but forbidden & illegal.

The child molesting 'Prophet' Muhammad, piss on him, has lived by his prophesy, according to Mohideen.

According to Aisha, the child-bride victim, he conveniently 'prophesied' whatever suited HIM best. Those who follow in the footsteps of this bandit-rapist-murderer are, for all I know, criminals themselves.

You should be locked up and deported, Mohideen!

Mohideen "explains" why Mohammed, according to most Muslim scholars, married Aisha when she was 6 and consummated the marriage when she was 9.

Mohideen says that by Aisha, Allah showed that any Muslim man married to a prepubescent girl must wait before consummating the marriage however many years it takes until she reaches puberty.

Unfortunately, if Allah showed this, he showed it very ambiguously, because even learned Imams argue that she was not pubescent when the marriage was consummated at 9. Allah simply gives no clear indication that Aisha had reached puberty at 9, and there are various indications to the contrary.

Consider what the great Imam Abu Ubaid al-Qaasim bin Sallaam al-Baghdaadee said:

We don't see there being any reason for that (permission to play with her dolls), except due to the fact that these toys are a source of amusement (lahw) for the children. So, if they were owned by adults, it would definitely have been detestable (makhrooh).

Sahih Muslim Book 8, Number 3311 'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he died she was eighteen years old.'

If, as Mohideen claims, Allah used the 3 year waiting period (from age 6 or 7 to age 9) with Aisha to show the world that men should never, even in marriage, have sex with prepubescent girls, then why did Allah 'show' this in a way that could so easily be interpreted by pedophiles as justification showing exactly the opposite of the lesson Mohideen says Allah wanted to teach? Allah must be a very poor teacher if he leaves this lesson so ambiguous that one can easily interpret it exactly opposite to the way Mohideen says it was meant. Today there is endless discussion of Aisha's marriage, partly because no one really knows if Aisha had reached puberty at the consummation. Quite a few Muslims in the world take Allah's 'lesson' to be that sex between an adult and a 9 year old girl, prepubescent or not, is divinely okayed. Why did Allah leave the interpretation of the situation open to taste, including the sick taste of pedophiles? "Allah" is apparently not only a poor teacher, but a very poor protector of prepubescent girls.
-Omar

Naseem,

You are right to express disgust of Mohammed marrying a 6-year-old girl. No true prophet of God would do such horrible actions. Even just reading about the marriage of the child bride Aisha would make me angry also. I would question why " the teacher " would defend such actions.

Mohideen -

Don't Muslims believe in adoption? You mentioned that Aisha was an orphan - ok - so why didn't Muhammad, or someone else, adopt her instead. You don't MARRY a six year old child!

And then you stated "Allah knows best".

Yes, God knows best! Do you honestly think that Allah or God approved of Muhammad's actions? You are lying to yourself if you believe that God approves of adultery, lying, murder and promoting suicide.

Haven't you ever heard of the Ten Commadments?!?

- Mohideen

Below is an entreaty that Sir Francis Bacon made to King James in 1620. Note that he is sincere in his admiration of God and that he believes it not a sin to seek knowledge through scientific inquiry--rather that, due to the infinite possibilities to better man's plot and to provide an unending progress and generosity to mankind, it is a duty for learned and intellectual people to inquire further about nature and of man's place in it. Far from an athiest or someone who is seeking to disprove the existence of God, Sir Francis Bacon argues perfectly why religion or any other authority ought to encourage free-thought. The full quote can be found here: http://www.constitution.org/bacon/instauration.html

For my own part at least, in obedience to the everlasting love of truth, I have committed myself to the uncertainties and difficulties and solitudes of the ways and, relying on the divine assistance, have upheld my mind both against the shocks and embattled ranks of opinion, and against my own private and inward hesitations and scruples, and against the fogs and clouds of nature, and the phantoms flitting about on every side, in the hope of providing at last for the present and future generations guidance more faithful and secure. Wherein if I have made any progress, the way has been opened to me by no other means than the true and legitimate humiliation of the human spirit. For all those who before me have applied themselves to the invention of arts have but cast a glance or two upon facts and examples and experience, and straightway proceeded, as if invention were nothing more than an exercise of thought, to invoke their own spirits to give them oracles. I, on the contrary, dwelling purely and constantly among the facts of nature, withdraw my intellect from them no further than may suffice to let the images and rays of natural objects meet in a point, as they do in the sense of vision; whence it follows that the strength and excellence of the wit has but little to do in the matter. And the same humility which I use in inventing I employ likewise in teaching. For I do not endeavor either by triumphs of confutation, or pleadings of antiquity, or assumption of authority, or even by the veil of obscurity, to invest these inventions of mine with any majesty; which might easily be done by one who sought to give luster to his own name rather than light to other men's minds. I have not sought (I say) nor do I seek either to force or ensnare men's judgments, but I lead them to things themselves and the concordances of things, that they may see for themselves what they have, what they can dispute, what they can add and contribute to the common stock. And for myself, if in anything I have been either too credulous or too little awake and attentive, or if I have fallen off by the way and left the inquiry incomplete, nevertheless I so present these things naked and open, that my errors can be marked and set aside before the mass of knowledge be further infected by them; and it will be easy also for others to continue and carry on my labors. And by these means I suppose that I have established forever a true and lawful marriage between the empirical and the rational faculty, the unkind and ill-starred divorce and separation of which has thrown into confusion all the affairs of the human family.

Wherefore, seeing that these things do not depend upon myself, at the outset of the work I most humbly and fervently pray to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, that remembering the sorrows of mankind and the pilgrimage of this our life wherein we wear out days few and evil, they will vouchsafe through my hands to endow the human family with new mercies. This likewise I humbly pray, that things human may not interfere with things divine, and that from the opening of the ways of sense and the increase of natural light there may arise in our minds no incredulity or darkness with regard to the divine mysteries, but rather that the understanding being thereby purified and purged of fancies and vanity, and yet not the less subject and entirely submissive to the divine oracles, may give to faith that which is faith's. Lastly, that knowledge being now discharged of that venom which the serpent infused into it, and which makes the mind of man to swell, we may not be wise above measure and sobriety, but cultivate truth in charity.

And now, having said my prayers, I turn to men, to whom I have certain salutary admonitions to offer and certain fair requests to make. My first admonition (which was also my prayer) is that men confine the sense within the limits of duty in respect of things divine: for the sense is like the sun, which reveals the face of earth, but seals and shuts up the face of heaven. My next, that in flying from this evil they fall not into the opposite error, which they will surely do if they think that the inquisition of nature is in any part interdicted or forbidden. For it was not that pure and uncorrupted natural knowledge whereby Adam gave names to the creatures according to their propriety, which, gave occasion to the fall. It was the ambitious and proud desire of moral knowledge to judge of good and evil, to the end that man may revolt from God and give laws to himself, which was the form and manner of the temptation. Whereas of the sciences which regard nature, the divine philosopher declares that "it is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but it is the glory of the King to find a thing out." Even as though the divine nature took pleasure in the innocent and kindly sport of children playing at hide-and-seek, and vouchsafed of his kindness and goodness to admit the human spirit for his playfellow at that game. Lastly, I would address one general admonition to all — that they consider what are the true ends of knowledge, and that they seek it not either for pleasure of the mind, or for contention, or for superiority to others, or for profit, or fame, or power, or any of these inferior things, but for the benefit and use of life, and that they perfect and govern it in charity. For it was from lust of power that the angels fell, from lust of knowledge that man fell; but of charity there can be no excess, neither did angel or man ever come in danger by it.

Eudaemon -

Interesting post, and I have to agree, science IS important. In fact - studying it has deepened my faith tremendously, as I can see the hand of God in science, nature, and the like.

You mentioned that Aisha was an orphan
Posted by: champ at April 5, 2006 10:20 PM

I never mentioned that. Mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her was a daughter of the first Caliph Abu Bakr, Allah be pleased with him. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, married mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her not because she was an orphan, but because it was ordained so by God Almighty.

Adoption does not make the child equal to a biological child. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was not related to mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her before their marriage.

It's funny to contrast the difference between how children excuse their wrongdoing, with how Muhammad did. Children will often say, "the devil made me do it." While Muhammad said, "God Almighty said to do it." Think about that for a minute...

Mohideen -

I just reread your post (I think it was number 15), and because of the way you stated it, it sounds like you were saying that Aisha was an orphan.

In the beginning of your sentence you mentioned Aisha, and then in the following sentences you were talking about orphans; indicating to ME that you were talking about her too.

Sorry I got the facts wrong, but it is a little hard following your train-of-thought on any given topic because you're all over the place.

I'm guessing, because of the way arranged marriages typically work in backwards societies, that once the marriage took place between Aisha and Muhammad's adopted son--her parents would not take her back when his son divorced her (what grounds he doesn't provide). This is indicative of the "disgrace" that backwards societies apply to women who are "used goods." Her parents wouldn't take her back...essentially leaving her an orphan. But since she was 6 at the time--a bit young by civilized standards--she wasn't defiled Muhammad and saw her as therefore desirable as a mate (again, if she were deflowered I'm sure he would have been fine with her being destitute--another backwards viewpoint).

The problem I have with the scenario is this: if Muhammad was divining what was right and wrong, why was it beyond his comprehension that a reasonable solution would be to adopt her as a daughter or to tell her parents and all of the society at the time that their customes regarding marriage and women were bad and backward? If God were speaking to him, why didn't He suggest that Muhammad should teach them that the backwards ways were wrong, fundamentally? Mohideen, you say that there is a different standard that is applied today--why is this so? Is it because the standard that Muhammad applied was wrong? Are we wrong to regard girls who are 6 or 9 to be too young for marriage? Is it wrong to have arranged marriages--since women are often regarded as cattle (with their value assigned by how many cows they're worth) to become "property" of the man to do his bidding, etc.? If Muhammad was divining God's will why didn't God tell him that it is wrong for people to be treated differently or that slavery is wrong or that people of different ethnicities or faiths should be equal? Did God intend for peace to be elusive until only one voice was accepted--if so by what standard did he apply when he picked Muhammad, who obviously had his issues? How can society be expected to take Muhammad's words as truth--by what measure can we apply his words as actually coming from God when we have other people claiming or who have claimed to be prophets? How do you know what he said was right and how can you expect others to conform? Even if people believe in God and believe in standards of right and wrong, how do we know Muhammad was the only person to have received God's message in its entirety? How do we know that Muhammad wasn't biased or errant in anything he said? In effect, how do we know he was a prophet at all?

Like I've said before--religion has never been an Objective Truth, for there's no such thing. Things have to be accepted on faith alone and it's unreasonable to expect everyone to share your same view. I may watch a movie and think it's great--while others may find it aweful...wouldn't it be unreasonable to say that God said the movie is good so you must believe it is good? I feel that for the most part the concept of right and wrong are universal and that morals are conceived and received by all men from either a shared history or possibly from God. But to what degree we should expect that God has told us how to enforce these standards is debatable. Reason suggests that if man can learn to be good and learn to be bad that a sinner can reform himself--that there is almost no reason to end life where there remains the possibility for salvation or perfection of the human spirit, if such a thing is real. Reason suggests that people should be treated equally. Reason suggests that young girls should not be married or defiled. How can something that is regarded as truth be contrary to reason?

Mohideen,

"Islam is the true religion. Come to it and benefit. "

Have one question. If Islam is the true religion, why is it that the Christian faith is spreading much faster, with the global south leading the way in new members coming into the Christian Church?

If Islam is the true religion, why is it that the Christian faith is spreading much faster, with the global south leading the way in new members coming into the Christian Church?
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at April 6, 2006 09:54 PM

I performed a search a few minutes back in http://news.google.com and the result is given below. Christianity is the tenth among the most relevant ten news items. Draw your own conclusions.

Results 1 - 10 of about 236 for fastest growing religion. (0.07 seconds)
Sorted by relevance Sort by date

1. FrontPage magazine.com
Menace in Europe
FrontPage magazine.com, CA - 15 hours ago
... decade. The birthrate among non-Muslims is sinking like lead. Islam is Europe ’s most vital and fastest-growing religion. There ...
The fastest growing faith
2. Khaleej Times, United Arab Emirates - Mar 30, 2006
... rates. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. This is because Islam is not only a religion, but a social phenomenon. ...
3. Al-Qaeda in the Andes: Spotlight on Colombia
Global Terrorism Analysis, DC - 15 hours ago
... Islam has become one of the fastest growing faiths in ... Growing disenchantment with the Roman Catholic Church establishment ... as the official state religion in an ...
4. The Ultimate Taste Test
The Jewish Journal of greater L.A, CA - 6 hours ago
... limited today to specialty suppliers or people of a particular religion or ethnicity ... is consumed by Jews, and this is one of the fastest growing segments of the ...
5. Compiled by Jenni Parker
Agape Press, MS - 9 hours ago
... the city could be sued because the "silent invocation" allegedly promotes religion. ... and the Roman Catholic Church were the fastest-growing major denominations ...
6. Arabic is a class favorite
DetNews.com, MI - 20 hours ago
... they help fuel a trend that has made Arabic the fastest-growing spoken language ... world events led him to want to learn more about his religion -- Islam -- and ...
7. Joint decree a clear danger to religious freedom
Jakarta Post, Indonesia - Mar 30, 2006
... That is why, in the past two decades, more than 1,000 mosques have been built in the US, making Islam the fastest growing religion in America. ...
8. Make as much fun of him as you want
Los Angeles Times, CA - Apr 4, 2006
... The John Tesh Radio Show," one of the fastest-growing syndicated radio ... and simple — health, relationships and family, and absolutely no politics or religion. ...
9. Arabic is going to the top of the class in US
Peninsula On-line, Qatar - Apr 5, 2006
... they help fuel a trend that has made Arabic the fastest-growing spoken language ... world events led him to want to learn more about his religion — Islam — and ...
10. African Christians a Growing Dynamic Force
Forbes - Mar 25, 2006
... The savvy former mathematician leads the fastest-growing Christian movement from a ... and focused," said Dickson Adeyanju, the chief religion correspondent for ...

- Mohideen

What do you seek to establish by showing that Islam is growing? Do you honestly think that it's doing so because it is attractive? Or could it possibly be that it's primarily due to the abnormally low birth rates in the West? If you want to actually show that the growth is by attractiveness--i.e. people are coming to the faith voluntarily, you'll have to do better than that.

If Islam is indeed the fastest growing religion, and it is sincerely winning the hearts and minds of people--then why is it that Muslims feel so threatened of outside thought and religious teaching? If Muslims are so convinced that their religion is true, why do they insist that it not be directly compared to other religion on equal grounds--let the best religion win?

I will tell you why--because this so-called global jihad or struggle against non-believers is not actually grounded in anything other than penis envy. Well, come on boys--let's drop trow and get this over with. In an actual contest you are afraid you will lose--so you've got to stack the deck in your favor. In many Muslim countries it is against the law to evangelize the Christian faith--why do you think this is? Can you find in your holy books where it says to outlaw Christian evangelism? It's because you feel threatened--you feel as though perhaps when directly compared, people might actually leave the Muslim faith out of acknowledgement that on ideals alone and on principles alone Christianity wins out. I'm not a Christian, but I recognize a superior set of ideals when I see it... There is no mistaking that Christianity has given rise to the greatest birth of invention and of knowledge and of wisdom the likes of which this earth and our humanity has not seen before. This is yet another source of Muslim envy toward the West. Well, since you are bound by religion from joining us in principle, you seek to destroy us by making us in your image. Well--I probably speak for many freedom loving people when I say--piss off and take your "truth" elsewhere...you see, we already have one.

In many Muslim countries it is against the law to evangelize the Christian faith
Posted by: Eudaemon at April 7, 2006 02:26 AM

Only one region – not country – should be free of preaching of non-Muslim thought, the Arabian Peninsula. Everywhere outside the Arabian Peninsula every religion is permitted. In a place a religion is permitted, its adherents of course have the right to preach.

If any so called Muslim country outside the Arabian Peninsula punishes the preaching of other religions, such punishments are wrong.

What I had read in response from you, the different infomation posting has simply confused me. The truth of the matter is that the proof in the pudding that the Christian faith is really the fastest growing faith will be realized come next Saturday night, the night before Easter, Holy Saturday when people will either be baptazed or recieved in my church, the Roman Catholic Church. Other then for birthrates among Muslims, the greatest numbers of new converts is still leading in the direction of the Christian Church.

What I had read in response from you, the different infomation posting has simply confused me.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at April 7, 2006 10:05 AM

In these pages there was an assertion that Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, prophesied nothing. If as you say, the number of baptisms is increasing, it is the effect of the following Tradition from http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=Medina+snake&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
===
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Verily, Belief returns and goes back to Medina as a snake returns and goes back to its hole (when in danger)." (Book #30, Hadith #100) (Sahih Bukhari)
===

This is one of the approaches of the Day of Judgment. In the approach of the Day of Judgment, Islam would shrink and return to Medina and its environs. It is possible that the shrinking of Islam has started. Having said the above, we love to state the following Tradition also. This is found in http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=truth+hour+west&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
===
It has been narrated by Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The people of the west will continue to triumphantly follow the truth until the hour is established. (Book #020, Hadith #4722) (Sahih Muslim)
===

That is, the west that seems to severely criticize Islam now, would embrace Islam when it recognizes the truth, and then they would not leave it until the Day of Judgment.

Allah knows best.

If in the Islamic faith, as in the Christian faith, apocryphal literature serves the same purpose, then it is generally regarded as a rallying point for which believers continue their faith and hope during times of persecution. I don't doubt that believers take apocryphal literature very seriously--as they should. But it should be tempered, because there are warmongers who would love to do their "duty" in ensuring that Biblical Armageddon actually comes to pass. This could be disastrous since truthfully no one knows when (or if) it will actually occur.

As I've said, there are Christians who believe that the final battle between good and evil will be between the Christians (good) and the Muslims (evil). It is a very small minority who feel this way, but the idea is out there. I feel this sets a dangerous stage for which to conduct international politics--for where is the foundation of trust. The vast majority of Americans don't feel this way, but if the trend for people to become more religious (on both Muslim and Christian sides) then the pendulum may sway even further to the right and peace and stability for all could be jeopardized. It would, in fact, become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Imagine the aweful feeling that mankind would feel if such a calamity were allowed to ensue, and such bloodshed and violence did not actually beckon Christ's return, but was for nothing. It is really pathetic that people look forward to such trying times because they feel that they would be rewarded...how selfish is that? Like the supposed martyrs who are not defenders but offenders, against peace and for continued violence and bloodshed. Why must religion be motivated by selfishness and fear? And people wonder why many have doubts?

By the way, apocryphal literature and its nature in Christianity is sort of an obsurdity if one thinks about it. Why would God need to inflict suffering in order for people to attain salvation and communion, why not just come down without prefacing it with a lot of His followers dying and inflicting hardship on all of humanity?

Then there is the question of man's dual nature. If man is capable of evil, why did God make us that way in the first place? Why not just make people good, without all of this propensity to do harm unto others and to disagree with Him?

Then you have his "chosen" people. If they are chosen, why are they being constantly oppressed, enslaved, killed, or otherwise driven to the brink of extinction? It's almost like He has it out for them. Not much reward in being chosen, really.

How about the idea of being generous so that one is rewarded...where did that idea come from? Karma? If it is true, why does God wait until after death to reward you? Why doesn't he allow evidence of His righteousness to occur in this world so that people wouldn't be so apt to do wrong in the first place?

Then you have the crucifiction. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say Christ's sacrifice was good for mankind. If He was the son of God, how much does it say about mankind that we KILLED Him? You can go on about how it was prophesy until you are blue in the face, but it's obsurd to think that killing Him was good--why stop there if killing is so good? It's also a bit ironic that He MUST come again if He is the messiah, because the prophesy foretold about him was not fulfilled at the time of His death--this itself is the source of doubt for the Jews. Why would God send the Messiah and in His death create doubt in his chosen people?

Or how about the enslavement of the Jews in Egypt under the Pharaoh. If it was bad for the Jews to be enslaved, why did they not realize that slavery itself was bad? And the whole story about killing first-born males...what was that for? If Pharaoh was the one making decisions, why didn't God just compel him to allow the Jews to leave without killing innocent lives? It's clear that the Jews had no qualms about taking innocent life either, a review of their quest to take the Holy Land will describe a blood thirsty tyrant who did just as Muhammad did...leaving no one alive and dividing up booty. And they described this as just, just as Muhammad did.

Really, if you start poking holes in Islam, it follows you can do the same in Christianity and Judaism.

If man is capable of evil, why did God make us that way in the first place?

Eudaemon, from my point of view.

If we did not have that ability, we would be nothing more then preprogramed robots and we would therefore not be made in the image of God, nor could we be very pleasing to Him if we couldn’t freely choose Him.

In regards to suffering for the faith I think of this song lyric.
“This broken road prepares Your will for me”. It is through trials that my character is formed.

God waits until after death for reward, so we do the good deeds for the right reasons, not for monetary gain right at this moment.

Christ paid a debt He did not owe, because I owe a debt I can not pay.
In other words, God being a just God requires payment for my sins, Christ is that payment, He received the punished I was owed, because of my trespasses against His law.

The Canaanite’s would be considered morally corrupt and that is by secular standards of today.

So by God’s standards these people could not be left to co-exist and thus lead the weak Jews astray, now Gods orders were never fully carried out, as the Old Testament records.
King Saul was forbidden from taking plunder and leaving anyone alive, he did not fulfil his orders.

If you compare Mohammad to the Canaanite’s, Mohammad looks like a girl scout.

Really the only "right" to land that the Jews took after the exodus was the "right" supposedly given to them by God...Read how they went about taking the land (which was obviously already inhabited)--note that they are the aggressors...Constrast this to the supposed claim the Palestinians have over Israeli lands and the current rhetoric espoused by the Palestinians. The Jews are defending their "right" to land with the Palestinians as the aggressors.

Numbers 21:34-35 - Victory over Og: The Lord, however, said to Moses, "Do not be afraid of him; for into your hand I will deliver him with all his people and his land. Do to him as you did to Sihon, king of the Amorites, who lived in Heshbon." So they struck him down with his sons and all his people, until not a survivor was left to him, and they took possession of his land.

Numbers 31:7-11 - Extermination of the Midianites: They waged war against the Midianites, as the Lord had commanded Moses, and killed every male among them. Besides those slain in battle, they killed the five Midianite kings with the sword. But the Israelites kept the women of the Midianites with their little ones as captives, and all their herds and flocks and wealth as spoil, while they set on fire all the towns where they had settled and all their encampments. Then they took all the booty, with the people and beasts they had captured, and brought the captives, together with the spoils and booty, to Moses... 31:14-18 Moses became angry with the officers of the army, the clan and company commanders, who were returning from combat. "So you have spared all the women!" he exclaimed. "Why, they are the very ones who on Balaam's advice prompted the unfaithfulness of the Israelites toward the Lord in the Peor affair, which began the slaughter of the Lord's community. Slay, therefore, every male child and every woman who has had intercourse with a man. But you may spare and keep for yourselves all girls who had no intercourse with a man."

Numbers 31:25-30 - This describes the division of booty...

Numbers 31:32-35 - Amount of Booty. This booty, what was left of the loot which the soldiers had taken amounted to 675,000 sheep, 72,000 oxen, 61,000 asses, and 32,000 girls who were still virgins.

Numbers 31:36-47 - This section describes how the booty was divided up...

Numbers 33:52 - drive out all the inhabitants of the land [Canaan] before you; destroy all their stone figures and molten images, and demolish all their high places
(Note how similar this is to the Muslims demolition of the Buddha figures in Afghanistan)

Deuteronomy 2:32-35 - So Sihon and all his people advanced against us to join battle at Jahaz; but since the Lord our God, had delivered him to us, we defeated him and his sons and all his people. At that time we seized all his cities and doomed them all, with their men, women and children; we left no survivor. Our only booty was the livestock and the loot of the captured cities.

Deuteronomy 3:6-7 - Defeat of Og: As we had done to Sihon, king of Heshbon, so also here we doomed all the cities [60 in all] with their men, women and children; but all the livestock and loot of each city we took as booty for ourselves.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2,5 - Destruction of Pagans: "When the Lord, your God, brings you into the land which you are to enter and occupy, and dislodges great nations before you...and when the Lord your God, delivers them up to you and you defeat them, you shall doom them. Make no covenant with them and show them no mercy. But this is how you must deal with them: Tear down their alters, smash their sacred pillars, chop down their sacred poles, and destroy their idols by fire.

Deuteronomy 7:23-24 - The Lord, your God, will deliver them up to you and will rout them utterly until they are annihilated. He will deliver their kings into your hand, that you may make their names perish from under the heavens. No man will be able to stand up against you, till you have put an end to them.

Deuteronomy 20:10-16 - Cities of the Enemy: "When you march up to attack a city, first offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you, all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor. But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it into your hand, put every male in it to the sword; but the women and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth plundering you may take as your booth, and you may use this plunder of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you. That is how you shall deal with any city at a considerable distance from you, which does not belong to the peoples of this land. But in the cities of those nations which the Lord your God, is giving you as your heritage, you shall not leave a single soul alive.
(This means that whenever the Jews go into battle, they are to conduct themselves in this manner--fortunately for Palestinians, the Jews have changed their minds in this matter)

I could go on--but I feel this kind of sets the tone for why they not only dealt with their enemies with cruelty and barbarism, but when establishing societal laws almost everything was punishable by death or a very high fine.

Mohideen,

The real truth is that thanks to the " seeds " that the west has planted in the nations in Asia, Latin America, and Africa below the Sahara Desert, these nations that are seeing a boom in the growth in Christian believers will in turn send missionaries back to the west to bring the much needed revival of the Christian faith.

This URL is a in-depth case in point :

http://www.intervarsity.org/ism/article/793

Posted by: Bar - If we did not have that ability, we would be nothing more then preprogramed robots and we would therefore not be made in the image of God, nor could we be very pleasing to Him if we couldn’t freely choose Him.

God waits until after death for reward, so we do the good deeds for the right reasons, not for monetary gain right at this moment.

Christ paid a debt He did not owe, because I owe a debt I can not pay.
In other words, God being a just God requires payment for my sins, Christ is that payment, He received the punished I was owed, because of my trespasses against His law.

1. If God meant for us to have the capacity to do right and wrong, why assign punishment for doing wrong? And you woundn't necessarily have to have automotons if everyone was "preprogramed" either--I mean for the most part we enjoy the security of a lawful society in America, though we are hardly automotons...if anything we are the most diverse society on earth. And also, I find it somewhat sad that if God did indeed give us standards of right and wrong and therefore the idea of just and righteous society, why does He not apply the same standard to Himself, considering we are supposed to be made in His image? Good people constantly get torment thrown at them while corrupt and vile creatures reap benefits for their inflictions. Seems hardly any sort of standard actually applies for God...a real "do as I say, not as I do" sort...

2. God waits until after death for reward, so we do the good deeds for the right reasons, not for monetary gain right at this moment...right, so I'm to understand that we are told to do right and that punishment will be meeted out in the hereafter, but we have to accept the whole premise on faith alone. And it follows that the promise of eternal life in heaven or the eternal torment of hell fire...this couldn't possibly be the motivation for people to do right and wrong? And what is the "right reason" if not that it gets you into heaven or keeps you out of hell? If God truly wanted to discern what was in people's hearts why would he not simply refrain from telling people His will to begin with and simply watch how people cope and deal with situations, without the concept of reward and punishment to begin with?

3. Not only do I find the concept that somebody who has died can come back to life hard to believe--I view man's willingness to kill a wholely innocent life, if anything, an indictment for the human race. Why would Christ have to pay at all? If God wanted to grant individuals clemency for their actions then why not simply offer it without killing His son? Maybe I just don't find the concept of human sacrifice all that appealing in the first place, either...like when God supposedly told Abraham to kill Isaac--why even offer such a "test of will" if God, being all-knowing, knew what the outcome would be from the outset? Does He simply enjoy watching the show? Does He find it humorous to watch a man struggle with such propositions, as in the aweful testing of Job? Aren't similar tests of loyalty repugnant when asked by a human authority--imagine a king saying, "if you are loyal, you will kill your son." If a king did say something of the sort, I doubt he'd be very revered.
Concerning the killing of Christ, I also find it hard to believe that the early Christians in Rome did not feel compelled to remove all blame for Christ's death from the Romans. Notice that in the story, Pontius Pilate asks the Jews for how to punish Christ--thereby removing all guilt from the Romans. Could this part of the story be concocted so that it wouldn't be an affront to Roman authority?

Posted By : Eudaemon

Why assign punishment for doing wrong? ...And you woundn't necessarily have to have automotons if everyone was "preprogramed" either-- I mean for the most part we enjoy the security of a lawful society in America

Don’t you see the contradiction in your statement?

We are only for the most part a lawful society because we kill and put people in jail who break our laws, I would consider that to be “punishment” assigned to “wrong doers.”

I don’t think you would consider it morally justified living in heaven (if there is one) with the same person /people who raped and murdered your spouse or child! That would be morally reprehensible as would Hitler gaining the same reward that I get.

And it follows that the promise of eternal life in heaven or the eternal torment of hell fire......this couldn't possibly be the motivation for people to do right and wrong?

Same premise as the first question, here is a real life example : I recently received a speeding ticket and trust me, it has its deterring effect, although in a more monetary fashion. So now I am motivated not to play NASCAR on the freeway and World Rally racing on the local streets.

Good people constantly get torment thrown at them while corrupt and vile creatures reap benefits for their inflictions.

Be gracious to me, O LORD, for I am languishing; heal me, O LORD, for my bones are troubled. My soul also is greatly troubled. But you, O LORD--how long? Turn, O LORD, deliver my life; save me for the sake of your steadfast love. For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise? I am weary with my moaning; every night I flood my bed with tears; I drench my couch with my weeping. My eye wastes away because of grief; it grows weak because of all my foes. Depart from me, all you workers of evil, for the LORD has heard the sound of my weeping. The LORD has heard my plea; the LORD accepts my prayer. All my enemies shall be ashamed and greatly troubled; they shall turn back and be put to shame in a moment.
(Psalms 6:2-10)

As the Psalmist demonstrates, trails cause His children to seek Him, without such, we would be lazy and not desire or require His company or approval.

If God wanted to grant individuals clemency for their actions then why not simply offer it without killing His son?

The God of the Bible is not a capricious God, He does not make a law and then not enforce it, in the OT he required an animal sacrifice to cover ours sins, this is barbaric but because of our nature it requires such, so we understand the true meaning of our sin as a completely pure God see’s it. Jesus the Lamb of God became that sacrifice for us, but only if by faith you believe such.

Now me believing such does absolutely no harm to anyone, those passages from Numbers and Deuteronomy, Leviticus do not instruct Christians or Jews to kill anyone today, they are God’s judgment on a people a long, long time ago. The Ten commandments and other ideas found in the Bible, do not instruct me to treat people as different then I want to be treated. I don’t see how that makes God, a "do as I say not as I do" God, what is taken as barbaric, is really the “punishment” that the Judge earth says He will dish out, then He follows through with His word, but that is my opinion.

- Bar

Before I begin, let me just say that crime is not an "added spice of life." And I was not being illogical as you suggested. What I was saying is that if people didn't have the capacity to commit wrongdoing, people would still be different. Take a look at the majority of people in the United States who commit no crime, but they are still very different.

This is a useful discussion, as I feel the questions I ask about God are probably similar to most doubters...and even if you don't sway me, you may sway someone who is a little less firm in his doubt. Believe me, it's not comforting to have doubts. I find most of my doubts come from the OT, as you call it. The God in the OT is not the sort of authority that makes me comfortable following, quite frankly. However, speaking of the NT, I find the concept that God became man, in a way, interesting if by the nature that God, by living as one of us, reached a greater understanding and appreciation for us. That alone is something that is intriguing about Christ's story. To me, the death is not as important (though nearly all Christians would disagree). I think that God's seeing us through His eyes would account for the difference between the God of the OT and the God in the NT...that despite our sins, we can still find solice and peace.

As far as peace goes--most of the secularists would agree with most religions that it is the ultimate goal of mankind, but that we should go about it differently. Many religions don't believe peace can be assured until everyone thinks as you. But in America we know that not to be the case, since there are all sorts of people who get along fairly well, all things considered. Therefore, if you think about what causes conflict, it could said that there are two principle reasons: 1. Not treating others as you would like to be treated (the Golden Rule, which can be said many ways), and 2. Feeling as though your life is unfair (which it may not be). I feel these two things work in concert to escalate conflict. Most of the sins established are either contributors to the above phenomenon or are the acts themselves.

To put it another way, if you made a long list of negative attitudes and a corresponding list of positive attitudes, the negative leads or is symptomatic of being discontent, while the positive are ones that lead or are symptomatic of being content. Therefore, I feel that the ultimate purpose that religion should serve in people's lives is to provide contentment. Now, as a realist we know that not everyone will be content no matter the society--therefore the way society is structured has to at least promote the idea that whatever the situation, it is just or that justice is served (such as absence of slavery, absence of prejudice, absence of unwarranted hostility, etc.). Our government has done a wonderful job in doing this--nearly everyone feels as though their interests are represented, either in the legislature or in the judiciary. Note that we prefer a mixed economic system for this reason--it's the best balance between worker's interests and corporate interests.

I've studied sociology and I've come to think many of the ideas proposed are valid. People need to be valued as an individual and they seek this value in a group. Whatever reinforces their values is seen as good, while whatever is contrary to their values is seen as bad. Groups contrast themselves against other groups to establish identity (an extension of member identity). Conflict occurs when either the individual or group attempts to enforce their values within another group. Therefore peace can only be maintained if all groups feel as though their values are served and that they don't feel the need to dictate their values upon other groups or individuals, or that the individuals or groups accept the terms. Our laws serve to keep conflict between groups or individuals to a minimum--which serves the greater good and the ultimate goal of peace.

Where Islam screws up is in feeling as though God told them to force their values or beliefs on others (to be constantly discontent). And Islam is not the only religion to have manifested itself as a feeling of discontentment in its followers. Many aweful periods have exploded in Christianity's past, and for the most part these happened when one group pitted themselves against another. Once Christians began to concentrate on "personal relationships with God" and upon contentment and peacefulness as the most important values, somehow peacefulness in communities naturally followed. You can't say the same for Islam. It seems to breed discontentment and hostility toward outsiders.

Anyway, I think I'm rambling now--so I'll sign off.

To continue with what I was saying above. I've reread the gospels and I feel that my doubts concerning the nature of law and punishment in the Old Testament are founded. I feel that Christ was saying that society cannot be truly peaceful, that all one can hope is to achieve peace within. He taught that there are those who rise up against those who are content, who seek war or conflict instead of peace and who don't accept that by doing so you diminish the capacity to be true to the commandments. In essence, the commandments are to be kept no matter the cost, that rationalizing sin can only lead to more sin and that rationalizing bad acts only leads to more bad acts.

What was said previously about the measure by which you can test the validity of prophets is telling. Jesus told us specifically that you can measure the validity by simply looking at what is manifested. Jesus taught that contentment is the ideal--therefore it follows that whatever leads to a feeling of discontentment is in error. When people point to the fruits of Christianity they rightly point to the achievements of adherants, but those achievements can only occur by grace and by being at peace with oneself--they are the fruits while (inner) peace and solice are the roots that have taken hold. Earlier I posted the statement by Francis Bacon--he was warning us not to be proud of our accomplishments, but to understand that they ought to be a product of humility for the betterment of mankind. On principle alone, one understands that he was at peace with his undertaking. The man who seeks knowledge in order to flaunt it or to use it as a weapon or to achieve fame is only fooling himself--for his knowledge and fame are fleeting and merely a gift from God. That man is to use the endowments of the creator in order to achieve peace within, and a peaceful society, if God wills it to be, will follow.

Eudaemon

Most doubts you have expressed are pretty common. I myself have had many of the same doubts and have discovered that my doubt doesn’t ever completely subside, it is constantly challenging my ideas. It was never my intent to sway you, I was only trying to give an answer for the hope that lies within, and I am a motor mouth. In reading the exchange between Mohideen and Nassem, I had to ask myself the question, I am that deluded about the Bible as he is about the Qur’an?

I concur with you about parts of the OT, it frightens me, and sends my running to the NT for comfort and reassurance, although I have found the same ideas of the NT in the OT.
The life of Christ I also find intriguing, the Bible describes Christ as “and the Word became flesh”, I take that to mean the word of the OT.

To think that a God would come and serve those He created, for God to wash his disciples feet, wow, Islam cant touch that. And one of the many reason for them to kill Moslems that convert to Christianity.

Yes, contentment is the idea, the Apostle Paul states many times that “peace” is the goal, we are not to fight over petty things. Paul lived in a society that jailed him for preaching the Gospel, yet he remained at peace all the time, he never advocated any kind of takeover so he could enforce God laws and should be the prime example for Christians to follow.

- Bar

One more thing that must be reconciled for me concerning the Christian faith (and it's likely something that many Christians and non Christians are troubled by) is that to be true to Christ's words, you place yourself at the mercy of people who would do you harm. Christ did this and was crucified for it. Is the same lot handed to those who live as Christ did?

Note that the military, in providing for defense, automatically is not only placing their earthly body in jeopardy, they (according to Christ) place their immortal souls in jeopardy as well, by commiting the sin of killing. Soldiers may rationalize why they are breaking the commandment, "Thou shall not kill" but insodoing they accept the terms and are not without sin. In a way, the sacrifice that they make for others is great indeed, and perhaps a great form of selflessness for others. Note that our military was formed for defensive purposes only. Granted the military has been used to promote peace (humanitarian missions come to mind) and at times, as a last resort, to deal with enemy's that would harm innocent life (Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan)...but overall when you consider the military capacity we have, it's a testament to Christian ideals that we have not used the military to subjegate others (as much as people would like to believe). I think what Christ was telling people is that committing sin is bad, no matter the situation, no matter the motivation. Basically, those who have sin must acknowledge their wrongdoing before they can ever hope to be able to attone. As a military member, I accept that I may be called upon to commit sin in the protection of others or in the service of others--even if my soul is jeopadized, and that I carry guilt.

Note that Muhammad said that under certain circumstances it was OK to do wrongdoing--but Christ was unambiguous, good is not good if done through evil and vice versa. Note that the Jews had wanted Christ to be like Muhammad. They wanted somebody who would overthrow the Roman occupation (I see a parallel with what is going on in Iraq), while Christ represented that which was TRUE to the commandments and was crucified as a result. "Thou shall not kill." "Love thy neighbor as thyself" - or put another way, "do good unto others." Therefore it follows that not only is inner peace and salvation only for those who recognize that wrong is wrong and right is right, but also are only for those who seek to attone for their sins by accepting that Christ has died for our sins.

Basically, His message is that rationalizing sin will only placate a guilty conscience in this life, but that the individual still carries guilt. This is a much more meaningful message than, "all people should do right, but all people are doomed to do wrong, so all people will be punished, regardless of the amount or severity of sin." Doing harm (or not doing good)to your neighbor is wrong, and not loving God is wrong...unambiguous. The way to understanding God's will in establishing human morality is to understand that ANY deviation from it is bad, but that the only way to rid ourselves of the self-hatred that guilt would ensure is through the salvation granted by God through His son, Christ. Very interesting concept indeed.

It's just unfortunate that, in Christ's example, the price one pays for being without sin and being true to God's will is most assuredly hardship from those who don't share your same values and want for peace.

Eudaemon

Well Christ does tell us that the world hated Him, so his followers shouldn’t expect anything different.

Matthew 10:16-17 ESV
(16) "Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
(17) Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues,
(21) Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death,
(22) and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
(26) "So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.
(27) What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops.
(28) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I could be wrong, but in regards to a Soldier committing the sin of killing during battle, I disagree. The soldier is under orders and is not held to the same account, the Ten commandments where it states “thou shall not kill” is a bad interpretation, a more correct interpretation would be thou shall not murder as in an unlawful killing.

There is an idea in Christianity of a “lawful” killing, such as you point out with our military. The other passage that I think gets twisted is “turn the other cheek”, I don’t think Christ was speaking about a physical life threatening attack against yourself or your family. A blow to the cheek is small physical injury, maybe more so to our ego, it is not a person taking your life. We are also told that the greatest love a man can show is to lay his life down for others, I take this as a direct order to protect my family, friends, country until the very end.

- Bar

I think that Christ sent his message, and that it was not ambiguous. Even the example He provides suggests that one must accept that God's will is outside the self, that it is a moral imperative. In a mathematical example, A being good and B being bad, A does not equal A and sometimes B. His willingness to die rather than commit sin suggests that, like I said, true acceptance of God's will, as proposed in the commandments means not allowing the motivations and actions of others to dictate your own actions...to, in effect, not allow the evil in others be a reason for you to commit evil.

You can either accept His proposition or reject it. His proposition is that rationalizing sin (psychology) only leads to a willingness to commit sin again, and for others to do the same. Kant suggests that the moral imperitive (morality) was given to us by God, but that our experiences and situations (psychology) provide a reason for commiting sin. I think he is correct and that this was Christ's message. What Christ was saying is that God's will is that people abide the commandments, period. You can view Muhammad's actions as reprehensible--in fact, that Muhammad said that God was telling him to do wrong suggests that Muhammad was delusional and certainly not a Christian in the purest sense (accepting Christ's message)...because Muhammad actually fooled others into doing bad by saying that they would be REWARDED for sinning.

I mistyped...A being good and B being evil...B does not equal B and sometimes A.

In a sense, when Christians label Muhammad as the antichrist, they are correct. Because Muhammad taught that it is OK to commit sin if the outcome is good--hense the term Islamo-Facism. Where as Christ taught that sin is sin, no matter the outcome. This is primarily the difference between the two belief systems...and probably why we are fighting now.