We hope you can. I have expressed that hope many times here myself. But they haven't yet. From "A Peaceful Koran?" by Father Jonathan Morris at FoxNews, with thanks to all who sent this in:
The Muslim tradition leaves no room for interpretation or theological development. The Koran is what it is. Those who dare to interpret are considered untrue Muslims, or Westerners in disguise. This tradition of cemented theology can almost work if all play by the rules. But they don’t. The radical imams of the ilk of bin Laden have a monopoly on theological interpretation. And their grip is tightening, on Islam and on the world.Theological problems don’t vanish with good public relations, political dialogue, or military force. They are resolved with good theology. Healthy Muslim clerics, who love God and love their religion, have a choice to make — either remain quiet and prepare to witness a clash of civilizations of epic proportion, or be willing to wrestle with the bad theology of their boisterous spokesmen. Can you provide to your fellow Muslims a convincing interpretation of a peaceful and loving Koran? We hope you can.
While I welcome the call, I don't think there is a useful answer.
Simply stated the Koran is not an inspired religious book.
The Koran is a book of lies and Arab supremacist ideology.
The Koran is no book of peace.
Read what the Koran says about dealing with Jews and Christians:
The DinnerTable
"[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
FreePeach-
But there is:
we need to do what Christians have done with the Bible since the first Englishmen -who were killed for their troubles- and Luther, who was not:
-re-write it ourselves.
Bring out a "The Peaceful Koran" ...with all of the violent verses given a nicer slant, since Arabic has no fixed vowels (like Hebrew) it is literally ALL a matter of the reader's own vision/interpretation/heart.
Just make the vile stuff metaphorical, internal, peace-loving and self-struggling poetics.
And say that this is the "true" meaning, censored since the death of Mohammad, by mean-spirited s.o.b.'s who hijacked the Koran from day one.
Useful psy ops, if nothing else.
Throw a nest of theological hornets into your enemy's tent, and at least you may confuse their efforts to destroy you as they debate the possibility that the earliest followers of Mohammad turned his peaceful "Recitation" on its head..
Ouch, is he ever in deep doodoo. This insult to Islam will not go without a threat or two I would think.
Foxnews will probably issue an apology shortly for offending all those moderate muslims.
Profitsbeard - we need more psy ops thinking. I like what you're saying.
Good idea - do a DaVinci code on them, but by word of mouth. Drop revised Qur'ans from the heavens and 'smuggle' them into hotspots and coldspots all over the world.
Get authentic looking 'imams' and other people to produce a video and distribute it all over the world - explaining the proof of how the peaceful Qur'an was hijacked and distorted by some of the people long ago... that the 'real & peaceful' version has been found in a cavity in the wall of a Medina mosque...
the possiblities are very real and will have a very real affect on the thinking of many.
The fog of anti-jihad.
Isn't this like asking a leopard to change his spots?
"We hope you can. I have expressed that hope many times here myself. But they haven't yet. From "A Peaceful Koran?" by Father Jonathan Morris at FoxNews, with thanks to all who sent this in:
The Muslim tradition leaves no room for interpretation or theological development. The Koran is what it is. Those who dare to interpret are considered untrue Muslims, or Westerners in disguise. This tradition of cemented theology can almost work if all play by the rules. But they don’t. The radical imams of the ilk of bin Laden have a monopoly on theological interpretation. And their grip is tightening, on Islam and on the world.
Theological problems don’t vanish with good public relations, political dialogue, or military force. They are resolved with good theology. Healthy Muslim clerics, who love God and love their religion, have a choice to make — either remain quiet and prepare to witness a clash of civilizations of epic proportion, or be willing to wrestle with the bad theology of their boisterous spokesmen. Can you provide to your fellow Muslims a convincing interpretation of a peaceful and loving Koran? We hope you can."
Truly it is refreshing that a true Christian Roman Catholic man in black ( priest ) has the God given courage to speak out and the message across what many non-Muslims have kept hidden out of fear. This is a sign of the peaceful just anger backlash that is needed to get across to the Muslim world community that the horrible violence and threats that have a basis in the Koran is going to be met with 0% tolerance.
Also the above is a reflection of the growing realism being seen in the present papacy of Benedict XVI who is taking a needed firm stand in dealing with Islam.
since Arabic has no fixed vowels (like Hebrew) it is literally ALL a matter of the reader's own vision/interpretation/heart. ~ posted above
That is completely absurd.
Of the three major interpretations of the Qur’an, Yusufai, Pickthal, Shakir
although they each read slightly different, they do not very in their interpretations, ditto for the Old Testament.
How could this be possible if it was literally not literal?
In Canada we still have the deaf and blind simpletons that actually accept the rantings of CAIR-Canada and most Imams insisting only a few non-Muslims have hijacked and perverted Islam for their personal or Political gains.
BUT, those few nutbars now appear to have several nations showing support for their actions, and the 3000+ acts of terrorism by Islamists since 9/11 speak for themselves that 9/11 wasn't a random event by 19 wingnuts from Saudi Arabia.
When Muslim leaders in Canada accused non-Muslims of being ignorant bigots and Islamophobes,I research the Quran and Islam ,and came across JW and DW which exposed a different perspective from the Jihadists themselves.
If they only had just shut-up I'd never have read the truth for myself and they could have continued the charade that Islam=Peace.
I expect the Islamists will kill off the idiots first which will thin out the gene pool for morons, this will leave the real humans with the self preservation genes to survive and kill those useless cockroaches that want a Global Islamic world ruled by Sharia and has a Misogynistic/murderer/pedophile as the head of the death-cult .
Muslims must now earn my trust and no longer will I blindly accept the sterilized verses from the Quran that is printed for us in the West.
I've been in love with a Muslim woman for 5 years now. 4 years ago (after 9/11, do the math), I seriously started to try to learn Arabic and read the Qu'ran. I failed miserably at both tasks.
1) The Qu'ran is incoherent to me. Really. I find it self-contradictory and arrogant. I not only can't see how any Westerner can read it, I can't see how modern Muslims can find any meaning to it, or even how this 3 card monty game of a religion got started in the first place.
2) I started with the Penguin edition (Dawood translation), then the Yusuf-Ali bilingual edition (which is also the basis of the Skeptics' Annotated Qu'ran on the Net), I also got the Abdel Haleem translation published by Oxford.
3) My acid test for a Qu'ran translation is my least favourite verse, Al Lahab:
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Perish the hands of the father of flame! Perish he!
No profit to him from all his wealth, and all his gains!
Burnt soon will he be in a Fire of burning Flame!
His wife shall carry the (crackling) wood --as fuel!--
A twisted rope of palm leaf fibre round her (own) neck!
It's just as repugnant to me in any translation. The assertion that this crappy character assasination against one of Muhammad's critics came from a higher power, much less a 'merciful and gracious' god, is ludicrous. I have yet to find a 'Nice, peaceful' Qu'ran which doesn't contain this verse. Why does a supposedly 'perfect' book which is supposed to be the last (and most complete!) testament of God to Man devote an entire surah to a disgusting curse?
Translating from any language into any other language isn't as hard as Muslim apologists like to pretend it is. For instance, the poems of Omar Khayyam are quite accessible to Westerners in translation.
The answer to critics of 'Kill them where you find them' verses isn't some lame plea for context. Furthermore, a book of 'divine origins' should be the easiest thing in the world to translate and understand. It's no wonder that Edward Said was such a master of BS and obscurantism, the entire region is rife with it.
Doolz,love the woman, hate the cult. Can you not get her to see the error of her beliefs? Do you discuss the passages with her and how does she explain them back to you? Does she agree that it's ok to have sex with young girls? Does she agree that it's ok to kill infidels? Does she agree that it's ok with her for you to have three more wives and part time wives? Does she think she should be killed for leaving islam? Does she agree that she should have no rights? Does she agree that muslim women shouldn't marry anyone but a muslim man? Does she agree the world is flat and the sun sets in a mud puddle?
Is she wanting you to believe this?
Morris' essay is an excellent sequence of observations and pointed questions. It's the type of thing that is very urgently needed, not only on Fox News, but in other media outlets in other countries as well as the US.
These questions must always be put forward. Answers to them must always be demanded.
"Let me remind you one thing, Christians and Christianity back in the Medieval period, was far more brutal then Muslims and Islam of the same time frame."
tennesseepride- as a person with a degree in medievil history, i have to disagree with your statement. christians were no more brutal than the muslims. both parties practiced barbarianism. however, the motive of one was to conquer, the other was self defense. and it was not the christians who were doing the conquering. while the christians allowed muslims and other faiths to live in peace while in possession of a land, the muslims coerced conversion to islam by dhimmitude, a horrible way to exist and a way which i personally will never accept. death before dishonor (or dhimmitude). i will die violently before i allow my children to grow up in the dark shadow of islam.
Bar-
Of course it's "absurd"!
As the early Chruch Father Tertullian put it:
"Credo quia absurdum est."
("I believe it because it is absurd")
What is ultra-dogmatic religious faith but the Irrational apotheosized?
And who are the strongest followers of the most extreme version of this ancient urge at the moment?
The Islamic Imperialists.
Why not take advantage of their love of unreason, and their devilishly ambiguous language, and try to mold a "Peaceful Koran" from the tractable clay of the original Arabic?
The root of the word "sword" in Arabic could be interpreted into several different words, literally, if you alter the vowel 'inferences'.
In English, a comparison would be "swrd", that could also become "sward" (as in 'greensward', or a lawn) or "seaward" (a sailing term).
In the Koran, you could neutralize the violence through a similar form of 'interpreting'.
The result would obviously be decried as "not logical" (since all previous translators came up with "sword", not "sward" or "seaward") by the orthodox Muslim "scholars".
But, in truth, they have no sacrosanct legs to stand on.
Because every reading, even/especially in Arabic, is an 'interpretation'/inference/best guess- by each reader. That 'reciter' is just giving the most "reasonable" and "logical" hypothesis from their own intellect and linguistic experience.
But, because religion is neither 'reasonable' nor 'logical', in itself, the orthodox would arguing from an essentially-irreligious position. The heretical heathens!
Trying to appeal to human rational formalities (scorned terms based on mere "reason") to defend their view of the divinely ineffable.
It would put a world of semantic/semiotic/philosophical/theological hurt on their heads to have to try to defend their personal Irrational against another person's Irrational.
And why would the "traditional view" be of any particular weight, when it came to the timelessly sacred?
They might be just as wrong as anyone else, no?
That's the fruitful joy inherent in this type of excercise.
The Islamic defenders of the traditional version of the Koran have defined themselves in such a way (as non-rationalists) that they cannot oppose someone -just as divinely absurd as themselves- by their own definitions, who behaves equally non-rationally.
The most sublime double-bind.
And they built it themselves!
Let's take Absolute advantage of it.
henry-
Exactly!
It would be much nicer to the poor deluded Muslims to give them a desperately needed (and desired) escape clause from the "pedophile warlord" interpretation of their "holy" book.
And might save millions of their lives.
I want them free of the mind prison of the dismal Koran, not dead.
Guided missals.
Inshallah.
profitsbeard, I like your approach, and I'd like to go further than that:
Let's go and find some scripture rolls in some cave and publish them: "The True and Nice Quran as written by Winnie the Poo"
Tennesseepride:
I got better.
Freewoman:
Can you not get her to see the error of her beliefs?
I don't think I could get her to discard them entirely.
Do you discuss the passages with her and how does she explain them back to you?
Not so much, we do occasionally do that, but like I say, I haven't been regular in my attempts to read the Qu'ran.
Does she agree that it's ok to have sex with young girls?
No.
Does she agree that it's ok to kill infidels?
No.
Does she agree that it's ok with her for you to have three more wives and part time wives?
No.
Does she think she should be killed for leaving islam?
She doesn't believe in killing apostates, but I haven't broached the subject of her becoming one.
Does she agree that she should have no rights?
No. Or that I should
Does she agree that muslim women shouldn't marry anyone but a muslim man?
Unfortuntately, yes. It'd be difficult for her with her family, otherwise. But I'll be more along the lines of a hypocrite than a true beleiver.
Does she agree the world is flat and the sun sets in a mud puddle?
I'll have to check with her on that, heh.
Is she wanting you to believe this?
Insofar as she believes that the Qu'ran is the revealed word of God, then yes, she does.
Doolz, talk to her about islam til the cows come home.
Ask her why she worships a pedophile, rapist, misogynistic, murderer like ole mo. I for one, don't understand how ANY woman would worship him.
Read up some more on islam, and when you talk to her, bring up a sura or hadith or verse and then ask her why she believes it. Keep asking why why why and then ask her how it pertains to people in the 21st century.
Surely she has an opinion on how women have to be covered(burkas, hijabs) and how in some countries, they can't leave the house without a male, can't drive, can't vote, can't work, and basically , can't live.
Good luck!!!