What you will not see in the wake of this: demonstrations, violence, or the killing of anyone, by Christian groups. "Christians protest attack on churches," from the Daily Times, with thanks to Twostellas:
MULTAN: Christians on Sunday protested against the desecration of the Holy Bible and arson attacks on their places of worship in various parts of the country, terming the incidents ‘religious terrorism’.Special services were held for those who had died in various incidents of violence against minorities.
“It is religious terrorism to set our church (in Mian Channu) ablaze during the period when we (Christians) fast. It is an attack on our religion and belief. We feel unsafe and insecure,” said Chaudhry Naveed Amer Jeeva, MPA and the coordinator of All Pakistan Minorities Alliance, South Punjab.
He said that the present regime had failed to protect churches, missionary properties and religious leaders. He said that churches had been burnt down in Sargodha and Sukkur, more than 300 copies of holy Bible were set ablaze in Sangla Hill and the cross desecrated and Christians killed in terrorist activities.
... more than 300 copies of holy Bible were set ablaze...
I'm ready to riot. You ready to riot?
The Barnabas Fund has not updated its Prayer Focus for April, but as you can see this is not an isolated incident in Pakistan. (Or elsewhere)
http://www.barnabasfund.org/zMar06Up.htm
People I talk to have enormous difficulty getting their heads round Christians (who they still see as "the establishment" in the UK despite our marginalised position these days) being subject to persecution in the rest of the world.
Especially when 95%+ of that persecution comes from one other particular religion.
Our pals!!!
Has anyone ever heard what happened, re: the group of Pakistani women (muslims) in Virginia that held an event to raise money to rebuild churches attacked in Pakistan? One would hope that any money raised for the churches didn't get "diverted".
It should become US government policy that the monetary amount of damage to non-Muslim houses of worship in Pakistan, Indonesia, and other Islamic countries where there are still churches and synagogues, will be deducted from their aid package. It would add up.
That's the least we could do, though pulling the aid altogether would, of course, be ideal.
In Pakistan, churches and local Christians have been attacked and murdered for decades. Bishop John Joseph killed himself to bring to the attention of the world the situation of Christians in Pakistan. In Afghanistan, former members of the Taliban sit in the new, democratically-elected Parliament, schools for girls are burned down, and Abdul Rahman, a convert to Christianity, was arrested and had he remained, would have received a death sentence, carried out judicially or extra-judicially. In Iraq 40,000 or more Christians have fled, and those remaining are under siege, the victims of kidnap and murder.
Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iraq, we are repeatedly told, are the Muslim countries where, because of all our help, we will find our natural and closest Muslim allies in what is so crazily called the "war on terror."
Do you agree? Do you, looking at Pakistan, at Afghanistan, at Iraq, think our government has adequately characterized these countries, and has chosen well in deciding to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on them, and suporting them to the hilt?
Are you satisfied with the Bush Administration's analysis of things? Or is something, possibly, lacking?
What would that something be?
Here we can behold the real Islam! As opposed to the bogus one that CAIR and its taqiyya-esque ilk would like us all to believe exists(but doesn't).
SO---THIS IS WHAT MUSLIMS WANT US TO BECOME. Doesn't it just make your flesh crawl??????
we need to stop ALL aid,we got people in our OWN country that need OUR country's money.
I'm ready to riot. You ready to riot?
Not sure if this is a joke or not, but to be honest I wonder if thats what it is going to take.
This whole Honour "thing" with muslim men is so outdated it should have dissapeared with the Dodo.
But i beleive that it stems from a more subtle and malevolent complex.
I was lucky enough to go to universtiy in England where I met many males from the middle east studying on the same course as me (Physics and Maths)
One individual "Hadi" would always preach to me me how he loved his girlfriend back home and could love no other.
This seemed strange to me considering I would often see him with another Girlfiend pretty much every month.
It became clear to me that he was no more than con-man and that he was simply unable to keep his dick in his pants and his moral ineptitudes to himself.
Since that time I have worked all over Europe and have met more Muslim males and it struck me that they all seem to exhibit this paradoxcial behaviour to wards woman.
On the one hane idolising the thought of woman as a sacred being, but in practice totally humiliating them and in this case actually murdering a member of there own family.
I beleive that these acts culminate from a very subtle and much more malevolent behaviour which to us in the West is considered psychotic and very dangerous.
Moslim men put honour above the welfare of their female members and religion above the rights of individuals.
This kind of behaviour, considering Pride and Murder is a sin, indicates that we are dealing with a very dangerous culture.
one point which is even more important , even if the girl had been a prostitute or exotic dancer (possibly a more acceptable reason for punishing her, even in some Western mens minds), the fact is that it is wrong to kill another person just because they do not fit into your concept of right or wrong.
Shinolite:
How about witholding all monies from these countries until the damaged buildings have been repaired or replaced and the victims or their survivors have been compensated?
An then how about a quid pro quo, in which every mosque built in the US must be matched by a non-Moslem house of worship in dar al islam, ultimately Saudi Arabia but for the time being Pakistan and Indonesia.
Alarmed Pig Farmer: How's this for a letter to the Paki Ambassador, along with a copy of the above report?
Your Excellency:
Aren't you glad you're posted to a civilized, Christian country? Had the shoe been on the other foot, and we here burned 300 copies of that drunken rant you Muslims call a sacred book, don't you think your country's mobs would be on a rampage?
May your grandchildren say their prayers in 1611-vintage English; and may pigs root into nearest tomb of your favorite Pir.
Signed--
I know we have to clean our own houses, but damn. I dont know what kind of strategic "ally" Pakistan it but is it really worth it? If they could only ditch the sharia and grow up that place could really be a place people would want to visit.
Chatillon - good stuff. I tip my hat to you.
Chatillon you are bang on. Any mosque demand must be countered with a church demand. Greece is under pressure to open a historical mosque next to the acropolis up for worship. A conservative MP in the country said he would be glad to once the keys to Aghia Sophia in Istanbul are given to the church. Of course that wont happen and the mosque will probably open up. In fact I expect the parthenon will revert back to be a mosque before Aghia Sophia ever becomes a church. But we better start making the same demands they do.
Riot! RIOT! I am so blazingly angry at this moment that I really, really had to stop myself from posting what I first typed in. 'Riot' doesn't even begin to encompass all the things that I want to do.
Although I am a man of very little belief in anything I have never knowingly desecrated anybody's Holy book, and that includes the koran (although I do not regard it as Holy and do not accord it the respect of capital initial letters as I do the Holy Bible or the Bahgavad Gita, for example), for it is a needless insult and pointless in itself. Books, all books, are to to be enjoyed, argued over, discussed and the ideas which they contain either refuted or accepted. One of the things which this site is about is refuting the contents of a particular set of books in a sane, and mostly calm :) way: it is about winning the argument.
For a Englishman of my age, brought up by parents traumatised by WWII, the idea of burning books, in this case the Holy Bible, conjures to one's inner eye the grainy, black and white film footage of Hitlerite hordes burning books in 1930s Germany.
On many issues I have met with nothing but reason and calm argument from Christians who post on this site when I have expressed a viewpoint which is the opposite of their's. Naturally, I have contrasted their behaviour with that of the mohammedans - to the detriment of the mohammedans, needless to say. On the thread on this site relating to the gay fatwa issued by Sistani I have just read a posting by Ironman Hondo who is obviously a Christian - quite a long posting - whose obvious distaste for gay people has, none-the-less, been subsumed by the love and the redemptive properties of his belief in Christ. Ironman Hondo should be proud for, in my opinion, he is the very epitome of a civilised Christian person. Would that mohammedans could be as reasoned and as civilised.
When will our politicians wake up to the fact that the mohammedan world is no friend to reason? When will they begin to protect those closest to us, such as the Christian minorities living under the accursed mohammedan system? When, oh when, will they perceive that their version of evenhandedness betokens nothing more than the paucity of their thoughts and the emptiness of their minds.
I suspect that we have to wait for the scales to fall from our politicians' eyes in the same frame of mind as we wait for the last trump - certain it will happen but certain that we don't know when. Let us hope that 'scale falling' takes place before much longer.
This horrible situation does not suprise me at all. This was done because the next two weeks for the Christian churches, ( next week, the Western, the week after, the Eastern ) is the Holy Weeks in the Christian calander. The burning of these Bibles is done to get the worldwide Christian community offended and upset just days before Palm Sunday.
bigcatgirl13106 -
I had overlooked that Lent was upon us. However, where are the mass (no pun intended) riots by Christians? Where are the attacks on Embassies by seried ranks of crazed Christians? Where are the Christians setting mohammedans alight and bombing moskes? I think that we will search in vain for such expressions of Christian discontent.
Although I believe that religion is a suspect and sentinel animal I am, none-the-less, forced to say that Christianity has an infinitely higher level of love and tolerance than mohammedanism.
I may see myself, and others, as post-Christian but I will not deny my Christian heritage nor will I deny the main stream Christian's right to cry foul on this occassion.
I will celebrating Palm Sunday with my Methodist Lay Preacher friend and an Anglican Priest in a joint service at which my new grand-daughter will be Christened and, like many of us twice-a-year Anglicans, I will celebrate Easter in my local parish church. You will have, by reminding me of the Lenten Season, added an especial poignancy to my prayers and, dare I say it, to the intercessory prayers. Thank-you.
We should have an inter-faith quranic bonfire in various places in the country. Obtain permits to have burnings in public places, and burn qurans there. Ban Muslims from such events.
Also, at such events, have illustrations of Mohammedan atrocities worldwide - church burnings in Pakistan, beheadings in Indonesia, attacks in India, suicide bombings in Israel, et al.
If there are Muslim demonstrations, have counter-demonstrations. Have such events scheduled over weekends, so that the "I have a real job" excuse isn't valid.
Infidel Pride -
"...and burn qurans there."
NO
"For a Englishman of my age, brought up by parents traumatised by WWII, the idea of burning books, in this case the Holy Bible, conjures to one's inner eye the grainy, black and white film footage of Hitlerite hordes burning books in 1930s Germany.
I am sure that you have read my posting, above, and I ask you: in what sense do you disagree?
Certioriari: Glad I'm not the only one who sees the unfortunate irony of calling for the burning of Qurans in a thread that's about Bible desecration.
A quick thought for those who might not see what could be wrong with that:
It's tremendously counterproductive, both through giving free ammunition to those inclined "tu quoque" arguments, and by creating a distraction from the fact that one of the many reasons our civilization is worth saving is that we offer something better than the web of double-standards (abuse their book, but not one's own-- sound familiar?) and religiously sanctioned brutality that's enshrined in Islam.
Are you satisfied with the Bush Administration's analysis of things? Or is something, possibly, lacking?
What would that something be?
Posted by: Hugh at April 6, 2006 01:36 PM
The main thing "lacking" with the Bush Administration's analysis of things is its profound ignorance of Islam and the muslim psyche.
The fact that they allowed Sharia to be written into the constitutions of Afghanistan and Iraq and still insist that these countries are now "fledgling democracies" indicates the breadth of their pathetic ignorance.
The great historian, Condoleeza Rice, apparently skipped the study of Middle Eastern history, both recent and ancient. If she knew the first thing about it, she would recall that several European nations spent decades and billions trying to civilize and Westernize this part of the world; it cost Great Britain its empire. Nothing is impossible but I have no illusions that we will be any more successful than our predecessors.
I have read many opinions on this situation written by people who are probably much wiser than I am. Some insist that it is wrong and unfair to wash our hands of the Islamic world and let it stew in its own juices, that the only way to modernize and change it is by exposing it to Western culture and liberalism. I disagree. I believe that we are wasting time, money, and the lives of our soldiers on a lost cause and the moment we leave, full scale pandemonium will ensue as the maniacs fight for power and control. The only way these people can be controlled is the way Saddam controlled them.
If they want internecine war, let them have it. The cost of protecting Iraq's oil fields is simply too high and while I would hate to see them fall into the hands of terrorists, every Middle Eastern oil field is in the hands of de facto terrorists who use the revenue to spread Islam and finance terrorism, so what's one more? We should find a way to free ourselves from dependency on their one and only resource. Then we would have no reason to give a damn about the Middle East and the Islamic world.
We have no Islamic allies in the war on terrorism. Pakistan's current president has been bribed to comply in certain ways but his days are numbered. Iraq doesn't even have an official government despite the elections and major hoopla surrounding them. Afghanistan is a tribal nightmare and Karzai has little control or influence outside of Kabul. I see very little to show for our enormous investment.
In response to this bigotry draw cartoons.
Shinoliite -
Perhaps I am too close to the trees to see the wood, as they say. This particular outrage struck at my heart. Ah well, I am an older man and I value all books as familiar friends.
I agree with your posting. Of course it is counterproductive. Our civilisation does indeed offer something better. The trick is to know what is better, n'est ce pas, and what we should be ashamed of. Or, of course, maybe the trick is in being able to ask the question and expect an answer. "I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled" - Elliot, I think.
I hope that you find the quotes at the end of this post, especially the second one, as amusing/inspiring as I do (and I apologise, in advance, if I have misquoted or mis-cited any of them. As I said elsewhere on this site, memory plays tricks as one grows older).
For me books are almost sacred. This incident is like having the Hunnish Hordes at the gate, or seeing the flames of the barbarian consume the Alexandrian collection. I think that it was Ballard that wrote: "It's a very intimate experience, reading a book. You're as close as you get to anyone - except in bed. No, closer." and recently I re-read Cosmos by Carl sagan and was struck by the following "One glance at a book and you hear the voice of another person, perhaps someone dead for 1,000 years. To read is to voyage through time."
"We're in a confusion of books. Bonfire?" (Cage, Writings 1967 - 1972)
"A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone." (Jo Godwin)
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what other men say in whole books--what other men do not say in whole books."
(Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols)
"It wasn't until I started reading and found books they wouldn't let us read in school that I discovered you could be insane and happy and have a good life without being like everybody else."
(John Waters, American filmmaker)
Dear G*d, we have got to win this battle and this war. How much mankind could lose if the current barbarian were to win. I shudder at the thought.
Are you satisfied with the Bush Administration's analysis of things? Or is something, possibly, lacking?
What would that something be?
Posted by Hugh....
BUZZ....
Peter: "Yes, Larry, for three thousand dollars, what would that be?"
Larry: "Ah...is the answer 'situational awareness'?"
Due to the politically correct educational system, most people do not know about the long history of religious persecution in the Islamic World. In order for more Christians and other non-Muslims to make changes happen in Muslim countries, they must be made aware of the nature of Islam's intolerance for practicioners of other faiths.
Well I mean Churches desecrated and the good book burned. What is the world coming to. I am just an ordinary working girl but I would not do that for anything. It is shameful that we should allow this kind of thing. Who are theese pakistans anyway. I am a gay American but I have my pride. How can we lett these folks down like we do. Burning bibles and churches and killing christian folk is not what we should allow anyhow. Little Robert and Hugh who dont do photos you have to tell them that we dont want it and you just tell them that Precious is right behind you as are all God fearing Americans.
"In response to this bigotry draw cartoons."
Why not an illustrated account of Mohammeds life. Not satirical however, but a realistic representation of the major events in his life, good and bad just to be fair.
Of course I guess all those scenes of the Prophet ethnically cleansing the Jews and Christians, or with his 6 year old wife might not go down too well in the Muslim world. I always assumed thats the true reason depictions old Mo is verboten.
I'm guessing no stores would stock such a publication "out of respect for Islam" And, as an artist myself, I probably wouldn't want to illustrate something like that because I too "respect" the true nature of Islam, and I like my head right where it is thanks.
Yood better be right behind me or else. Precious dont do with half a melon and she dont go with dhimmi cowards. This site is good, real good.
Christians didn't riot but according to ASSIST:
.Care to put your name and address on that post 'precious'? didn't think so.
Actually, I'd love to do a fully illustrated Koran. I'm sure Borders would stick that on the top shelf.
Ref: jfkar
"Christians didn't riot but according to ASSIST..."
I've already emailed Robert about the opening comments - there may well be riots and killings by people from a Christian background, after all people will do bad things - however, the point is that the Bible and Christian Leaders do not call for violence, riots and killings - they act to stop it, and the Bible condems acting out of revenge.
The difference with Islam and those that follow it is that both the Koran and the leaders call for riots, violence and killing if they, Islam, Mo or anyone else related to it is 'insulted' or worse.
I'm in no doubt that Christians have and will in the future act in bad ways, however the Bible acts to restrain mans evil, Islam acts to promote it.
Ah books!
What greater evidence exists that, while all men may be created equal, all thoughts certainly are not. Books were burned in Nazi Germany while Mein Kampf was a best seller.
When there is no courage to shout defiance, or even to whisper it, there is still courage to write words down and pass them to others. Books are the record of such defiance, even as they are the record of gross hubris. Keep them all, lest we forget what we are capable of, good and bad alike.
Certiorari;
I thank you for you appreciation. I'm humbled. As I have said on other posts before, I speak from my heart. My walk with Jesus is perfect, but at least I can correct myself and repent and go on.
My two worded post above speaks volumes for me. But then, I go back to the Word of God the Father.
In all of the four Gospels, God the Son, Jesus predicted what is going on in the world as far as His church was concerned. As a man, I'm hurt and offended by the actions of the Pakstani Muslims toward the churches in their country. To burn down a church is one thing. But to burn the Bible is something totally different! This is OUR sacred tome. Our holy writ. In the Gospel of John, the first chapter, we are told,
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made."
John 1:1-3.
Now look at the first verse. It tells us that there was the Word. The first letter in word is capitalised. Why is this? Because later in the verse it lets you know that the "Word" was God. Who was/is the Word? Jesus, the Christ!!! Thus, when Pakistani Muslims are burning the Bible, they are not burning just a "book" but Jesus Himself!!! Any person with a deeper than normal understanding of the Bible knows this. But yet, Jesus also tells us that this has to happen.
You see, by burning the Word of God, Pakistan is rejecting Jesus. By rejecting Jesus they have rejected God. Now I don't mean that Jesus is actually the Bible. Far from it. Jesus is called the Word because He is the fulfillment of prophecy. The Word of Prophecy, if you will. He is personified by the Bible! In the Bible!
The Pakistani Muslims have done themselves more harm than good by this action.
And I speak this to anyone that thinks that to riot is the answer. It isn't! Anyone who seeks to retaliate is NOT doing the will of the Father.
God said, "Vengence is MINE!!" Father God will repay in His own time, His own way. This is not a time for anger but a time to cry. Unless these people repent of the sin of rebellion, these people will be judged by their "works!" In the book of I Samuel, the sin of rebellion against God the Father is called witchcraft. They are in serious trouble right now and don't even know it!!!! But Father God loves them anyway. In Hosea 4:6a, Father God is letting Pakistan know why they are risking total destuction.
"My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge: because they reject knowledge,"
Hosea 4:6a.
The church has to suffer perscution anyway. It was forseen by God the Father and God the Son, Jesus. In Matthew the 24th chapter it is all laid out about how the true saints of God will be persecuted and judged by men and the system, more than likely, a religious system. And keep this in mind as well. What the Pakstanis burned down was a building/buildings that were labelled churches. The true church is the very person that has God's Holy Spirit inside. The church is the body and/or a body of believers touching and agreeing. United in the faith of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Now are we right to be angry over this situation? Yes we are. But we are also instructed by the Word to "be angry but sin not."
Now don't get me wrong, when it comes to matters of my Constitutional freedoms and rights, I'm armed to the teeth with knowledge and a side arm.and will fight to the death and give my life for them. But when it comes to matters of God, I'm armed with the Sword of the Gospel! And I let my faith in Jesus guide me. And what ever may happen, to God be the glory!
We should be angry with the Paksitani Muslims, but instead of talk of burning the koran and mosques, pray for the Bible believing Pakstanis. They have a lot to suffer, but through Jesus they will OVERCOME!!! And trust me, they maybe crying but they are also rejoicing. Just like Peter and John, they are rejoicing over the fact of being counted worthy to suffer for His name sake. These Muslims think that they are doing God's will. They are only doing the will of their idol god Allah. Shaitan, Satan!!!
The Bible is God's way to lead man back to a personal relationship with his Maker again and Satan has worked almost 6000 years leading man in another direction. And just like when the Hebrews rejected God's rule over them in I Samuel, it's the same here. And any Bible believer that these hate-filled Muslims see will be a constant reminder that they are out of relationship with the one true and living God. The spirtual moral compass that they can't measure up to, won't try to measure up to because of their enslavement to Islam.
But God the Father is still calling out to them,
"Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye recieve not of her plagues, for her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquites."
Revelation 18:4-5.
Inspite of their chosen ignorance, Father God still loves them. After all, the rebellious Muslims are still God's people, God's children. Not Allah's!!! He made them. He knows them.
Why else do you think that God calls them a "stiff necked people!"
Sorry about being so long winded. I am a licensed minister.
To all who read my post above. I meant "my walk with Jesus "isn't" perfect. Typo, who can help it?
I hate when I say or do the wrong thing, or offend the owner, in a place I like to visit. The white collared shirts I try to wear don’t hide my red neck as much as I’d like. Sorry.