Scuffling over Sharia in Egypt. From AFP, with thanks to Mathew:
CAIRO -A fatwa issued by Egypt’s top religious authority, which forbids the display of statues has art-lovers fearing it, could be used by Islamic extremists as an excuse to destroy Egypt’s historical heritage.Egypt’s Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa, the country’s top Islamic jurist, issued the religious edict which declared as un-Islamic the exhibition of statues in homes, basing the decision on texts in the hadith (sayings of the prophet).
Intellectuals and artists argue that the decree represents a setback for art -- a mainstay of the multi-billion-dollar tourist industry -- and would deal a blow to the country’s fledgling sculpture business.
The fatwa did not specifically mention statues in museums or public places, but it condemned sculptors and their work.
Still, many fear the edict could prod Islamic fundamentalists to attack Egypt’s thousands of ancient and pharaonic statues on show at tourist sites across the country.
“We don’t rule out that someone will enter the Karnak temple in Luxor or any other pharaonic temple and blow it up on the basis of the fatwa,” Gamal al-Ghitani, editor of the literary Akhbar al-Adab magazine, told AFP.
Wave of criticisms
Gomaa had pointed to a passage from the hadith that stated: ”Sculptors would be tormented most on Judgment Day,” saying the text left no doubt that sculpting was “sinful” and using statues for decorating homes forbidden.
Gomaa’s ruling overturned a fatwa issued more than 100 years ago by then moderate and highly respected mufti Mohammed Abdu, permitting the private display of statues after the practice had been condemned as a pagan custom.
Abdu’s fatwa had “closed the issue, as it ruled that statues and pictures are not haram (forbidden under Islam) except idols used for worship,” Ghitani pointed out.
Novelist Ezzat al-Qamhawi said Gomaa’s ruling would “return Muslims to the dark ages.”...
The wave of criticisms against the fatwa has put clerics on a collision course with intellectuals and artists, who say that such edicts only reinforce claims -- particularly in the West -- that Islam is against progress.
Some, including Sayed, compared Gomaa’s edict to a similar one issued by the former fundamentalist rulers of Afghanistan, the Taleban, that led to the destruction of statues of the Buddha despite an international outcry.
Mainstream Islamic scholars, including Egypt’s then mufti, Nasr Farid Wasel, and the controversial Qatar-based Islamic scholar, Yussef al-Qaradawi, all condemned the Taleban’s actions in March 2001.
But Qaradawi joined Gomaa in declaring that statues used for decoration are “haram” or un-Islamic.
“Islam proscribed statues, as long as they symbolise living entities such as human beings and animals,” Qaradawi said on an Islamic website.
“Islam proscribed all that leads to paganism or smells of it, statues of ancient Egyptians included,” he added.
The only exception, he said, was “children’s toys.”...
In another fatwa in May 2001, Wasel ruled that beauty pageants in which women appear half-naked in front of panels of male judges are haram. The authorities played deaf and Egypt continues to host them.
Wasel slapped a fatwa on watching solar eclipses and another on bullfights, but refused to support rights activists in their campaign to outlaw female genital mutilation.
Islam proscribed all that leads to paganism or smells of it...
Including really cool desert rocks and an ovoid black meteorite? Or how about ceaselessly repeated incantations? PBUH, SWT, APAPF, and the like.
Well, that would be a mis-conceived claim. Even the most radical Muslims aren't necessarily against the latest high-tech toys (if that's what is meant by "progress"). and I bet they use laptops even though the latest Intel chip was designed by Intel's brilliant Israeli scientists (hence the chip code-name "Yonah"). The thing is they take a "cargo-cult" attitude to technology: it arrives when you buy it; it is not properly understood as one of the fruits of freedom of thought.
As for sculpture - sculpture has nothing to do with "progress". There was sculpture even in the Paleolithic Age:
http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d10/asb/anthro2003/legacy/paleolithic/greatleap/venus.html
This fatwa is not "anti-progress": it is anti-the general-opinion-of-humankind. And that is far more serious.
O.T. - for all lovers of the past:
New discoveries point to 'cave of John the Baptist' as important site in the time of Isaiah
Another reason why the US should stop giving aid to Egypt. They will then be even more dependent on tourism, which may stop this destruction from happening.
Time and time again there is this concern with the image of Islam. Destroying these statues is wrong in itself, not because it reinforces claims about Islam. Claims which happen to be true.
Just when I think the ultimate level of ignorance has been reached, I am proven wrong.
"But Qaradawi joined Gomaa in declaring that statues used for decoration are “haram” or un-Islamic.
“Islam proscribed statues, as long as they symbolise living entities such as human beings and animals,' Qaradawi said on an Islamic website."
-- from the article above
Qaradawi has two best friends in the Western world. One is Red Ken Livingstone, Lord Mayor of London, who should turn again -- but the Mayor's not for turning toward anything like common sense or decency.
The othervery great admirer of Qaradawi is John Esposito, the well-known entrepreneur. Esposito is fond of many famous Muslims. One particularly viciuos character (later stabbed to death by an even more vicious pupil) he refers to as his "ustadh" or teacher. Among the living, Esposito has collaborated with, and is especially fond of, Aziz Tamimi, the Hamas supporter and would-be volunteer suicide bomber (as he told Tim Sebastian in a BBC interview), who lives in London, and is often called on by the BBC World Service for his unbiased perspective.
And then there is Qaradawi. As part of the Islamic Society of Boston's attempt to portray Qaradawi,who had been associated with the Boston Mosque project, as a fine fellow, the ISB offered a glowing reference form Qaradawi from Esposito, self-described world authority on Islam (and he had a 9-page list of his achievements to prove it).
One is Red Ken Livingstone, Lord Mayor of London
No, he's not the Lord Mayor. He's the elected Mayor. We've got two Mayors, just to confuse Americans.
But it wouldn't sound right without "Lord".
It's sad that the sometimes pragmatic Islam represented by Mohammed Abdu a century ago has been completely replaced by the Salafism of Gomaa and his ilk. Of course, the Saudis have financed the Salafist takeover of Al-Azhar so we shouldn't be surprised.
If the West had any honour left, they'd insist that all the historical and archaeological sites in Egypt be returned to the control of the Coptic descendants of their builders.
I had the feeling you'd be on the watch. The Black Watch. The Watch on the Rhine. The "Watchman, what of the night?" watch. Okay, that's it.
Pistols at 7 a.m. tomorrow. Vasilievsky Island. Get there by droshky.
Now, about that story that French soldiers under Napoleon were the ones who damaged the female face of the Sphinx....
Buddhist statues did not fare too well in Islamic Afghanistan.
http://www.rawa.org/statues.htm
Egypt could be headed down a similar path.
Some Egyptian Muslims have called for the destruction of the pyramids.
Re: "The wave of criticisms against the fatwa has put clerics on a collision course with intellectuals and artists, who say that such edicts only reinforce claims -- particularly in the West -- that Islam is against progress."
Gee, do ya think so?
"Wasel slapped a fatwa on watching solar eclipses.."
You just can't parody this culture - they do it to themselves.
What is interesting (and ironic) is that for many years, Egypt has campaigned vigourously for the return of ancient statues and other artefacts "plundered" by the West over many years. How museums in Europe and America have obtained their antiquities and the rights and wrongs behind it are another discussion point. The question is, from the point of view of preserving these artefacts for many generations to come, is it better that they stay in the West or are returned to the Middle East? Is the bust of Queen Nefertiti better left in Berlin or returned to Egypt? What of the treasures of the Horniman museum in south London or the Egyptian sphinxes kept in the Louvre? Why should we trust the long term care of these historical items to their "rightful owners"?
Ali Gomaa......the country's top islamic jurist...................
for goodness sake this creature should be still living in a cave and he is the best that Egypt could manage as a top jurist.
The trouble is that our revered leaders, all over the Western world, are still trying to appease these people as if they were accredited human beings instead of the brain-dead cretins they actually are.
I,m with Treehugger in my amazement at the depths of ignorance these 'things' sink too.
Novelist Ezzat al-Qamhawi said Gomaa’s ruling would “return Muslims to the dark ages.”...
I didn't realize they had left the dark ages.
These have got to be the most idiotic, backward,and stupid people to ever walk the earth. They are like children and should never have any position of power.
A fatwa against statues because they might cause worship. What about the black rock? IDIOTS!!
A fatwa against watching a solar eclipse. MORONIC!!
BUT!!! No fatwa against FGM. Sure. He doesn't want to have to put out an effort for his wives to enjoy(?) sex. Not that they would, who would want to have sex with a man who BEATS you or leaves another woman's bed to have FORCED SEX with you.
These people need some serious birth control and some serious brainwashing intervention.
It should be noted here that the present inhabitants of Egypt have no relationship to the Egyptians that built the pyramids, etc.
One is Red Ken Livingstone, Lord Mayor of London
As Interested said Ken the Newt is not the Lord Mayor. The Lord Mayor, as in turn again Dick Whittington, Lord Mayor of London is Mayor of the City of London, the square mile in the centre which has it's own Corporation and police force. As an institution the Lord Mayor of London goes back 800 years or more.
The Mayor of London, as in Greater London, the boroughs which surround the city and into the counties is a new post, about 4 years old. Ken is the first holder. He would never take the title Lord! Most individual boroughs of London, and towns and cities around the country have their own Mayor, usually a senior from the elected councillors who lead the council for a year. I heard yesterday that one London borough sends as it's representative "The Civic Ambassador and Consort of the London Borough of Newham"
Mayor and Mayoress is just too, too common.
Shaking my head in disbelief. This radical Islamfacism is really going over the edge.
Carolyn2 wrote:
"It should be noted here that the present inhabitants of Egypt have no relationship to the Egyptians that built the pyramids, etc."
Actually there are still about 12 million descendents of the original Egyptians who built the pyramids: They are the Christian Copts who are the rightful owners of the heritage of Egypt. It is they who the Arab conquerers of Egypt have done eveything to exterminate, while few in the so-called "Christian West" even notice their plight.
Yes I've also heard that Napoleon's troops blew off the Sphinx's nose with a cannon shot. Fact or fiction? Knowing what we know now about how the faithful slaves of islam view such images, isn't it likely that they are the ones who vandalized it?
Al
No fatwa against FGM
There was some hoopla about 6 months ago where a bunch of imams and muftis and ayotollahs were making a big deal about giving these doggoned clitorises a break. Much to the surprise of this cynic, some scowling clerics were having postive thoughts about tolerating and maybe even working with this female sex organ doohickey.
Afer much huffing and puffing and self-congratulation --- and it should go without saying a lotta positive PR, too --- but things quietted down and finally went limp and the whole idea was quietly swept under the rug.
blew off the Sphinx's nose with a cannon shot
To spite its face.
My parting shot. Got to dash.
More on the Sphinx:
"Although the head of the Sphinx is badly battered in some places, traces of the original paint can still be seen near one ear. Originally it is believed that the Sphinx was painted and was quite colorful. Since then, the nose and beard have been broken away. The nose was the unfortunate victim of target practice by the Turks in the Turkish period. It is often erroneously assumed that the nose was shot off by Napoleon's men, but 18th century drawings reveal that the nose was missing long before Napoleon's arrival."
Source: http://www.guardians.net/egypt/sphinx/
"Guardian's Sphinx" by Andrew Bayuk.
By the way, the phrase "Turks in the Turksih period" could refer to the period, after 1517, when Egypt was under Ottoman rule. But long before that, with just a few interruptions, Turks (of various kinds)ruled in Egypt. Turks first appeared in Egypt at the beginning of the ninth century; Turkish rulers and a Turkish military caste, of various kinds, ran Egypt with, as noted above, a few exceptions.
So the damage to the Sphinx could have taken place over many centuries. But until there were rifles, it would have been hard to damage the really face that Sphinx and give in a nasectomy. Not out of lack of desire, but because of an inability to carry out that desire. In the same way, the Bamiyan Buddhas remained unharmed becasue until the Muslims in Afghanistan could get their hands on explosives, those statutes were just too large, and their placement such, that it would be difficult to do the bang-up job, with encouragement from the Saudis (later dropping those crocodile tears for the Western media) and many other Muslims who also proceeded to produce, for those same foolable Infidels, those lachrymae cocodrilorum.
Tears, idle tears. But convincing enough, apparently, for the endlessly credulous Infidels of the Western world.
It always rankled me when people joked world's shortest book? Italian War Heros.
WHERE ARE MY MOSLEMS I BOUGHT SECTION 8 APTS BUT NO MOHAMMED RENTERS
World's shortest book? Great Moslem artists.
World's shortest book was "The Wit and Wisdom of Spiro T. Angew", if I remember correctly.
Yes, there really was such a book.
Shy Guy-
The true 'world's shortest book' is:
"Mohammad's Thoughts on Love and Freedom".
It's one page, with one word:
Never!
Sorry, ProfitsBeard but I stand by my statement.
After the author's brief introduction, "The Wit and Wisdom of Spiro T. Agnew" consisted of nothing more than absolutely blank pages.
Provoslavni, I agree with you about the Copts. They have the misfortune to be under the heavy hand of islam, the Arabs are trying to eliminate them from their own land.
Children's toys, Female Genitalia mutilation and Solar Eclipses,
ALL this is in the Qu'ran I am sure, just give me a few minutes.....
while I look through it.
Not in any of the Suras...
God Damn it...
Sorry I meant to say "Allah be merciful"
But wait, the number 19 is encoded in the third paragraph on page 234. Maybe if i used 6 degrees of separation I can link all 3 subjects and get the answer I want.
My apologies everyone, i just cant seem to find the reference, I'll get back to you
sincerely,
recent mormon convert to Islam.
Note: Would my ex mormon brothers and Sisters STOP calling my house, my new wives are getting very upset.
But wait, there's more, much more:
http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1090
http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1096
http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1091
NO, Let them destroy the Pyramids
----------------------------------
I think we are missing the point here.
It is in their nature to destroy things that dont agree with them. so let them go right ahead !
sometimes it takes events of an extreme nature to make the West realise they are dealing with some very big crakpots !
So statutory rape is a good thing in Islam but statues are bad.
Off the the ash heap of history with this madness.
Shy Guy-
Actually, Spiro had some wit, although usually only in halves.
His phrase "nattering nabobs of negativism" isn't chopped liver, after all. So the author of the book was not being honest, just political.
(BTW... I found an old unopened comedy LP, years ago, about Mr. nolo contedere himself entitled: "SPIRO AGNEW IS A RIOT" by Stanley Myron Handleman [?] -and it is in the bottom of a closet somewhere, waiting to increase in value so that I can finally recoup my 49 cent investment...)
( P.S. Out of curiosity, I just checked online and the vinyl relic is up to $16 on an 'out-of-print record' site!)
Jonathan,
I have found no refernce to the Egyptians wanting to destroy the Pyramids.
Neither the opposition parties (The Islamic Brotherhood) or any known group within Egypt have been quoted as saying this is their intent.
I beleive that you are quoting from your own opinion and not fact.
I'm sorry, but this story just makes me laugh. I guess I'm getting jaded.
After reading this post I became curious about the issue of who precisely can issue a fatwa. So I did a quick google search and turned up this article by Amir Teheri, "Not everyone with a long beard can issue a fatwa":
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/10076
He concludes: "But the debate over who the ulema are and what role they can play in this age of globalisation is just beginning. Some radicals, including Bin Laden, have given up on the ulema and, growing their own beards a bit longer, claim the right to issue their own fatwas. This kind of self-service fatwa, however, is already discredited in the eyes of the overwhelming majority of Muslims."
I am tempted to think that Teheri is heading in the wrong direction here in trying to fight against the increasing number of self-proclaimed fatwa-issuers. My recommendation to "moderate" Muslims, on the contrary, would be:
If you can't beat em, join em. Fight fire with fire!
Start by issuing a fatwa against this guy and all the other jerks like him. I know that some Spanish Muslim clerics have issued a fatwa against bin Laden. Perhaps some grounds could be found for issuing a fatwa against this guy (are there perhaps general grounds along the lines of damaging the cause of islam, or something like that?).
We've seen the cartoon wars. How about bringing on the fatwa wars!
I don't think FMG is in the koran. Is it in any islamic texts? I thought it was actually an African tribal custom that islamists in some regions saw as a brilliant idea for further oppression and torture of women, and thus adopted.
And USA pays 2 BIL annual jazia to these barbarians. Go figure....
Given Ken the Red's Islamic proclivities, he should probably be the Amir Mayor of Londonabad
Also, Dick Whittington's cat would be an improvement, and it needn't even be Puss in Boots
Althought that would help - imagine Puss being given the job of ridding the world of all Jihadists
Peter wrote:
" Jonathan,I have found no refernce to the Egyptians wanting to destroy the Pyramids.
Neither the opposition parties (The Islamic Brotherhood) or any known group within Egypt have been quoted as saying this is their intent.
I beleive that you are quoting from your own opinion and not fact."
I was not quoting from opinion. Egyptian Sheik Abdel Omar Rahman has widely criticized the pyramids and riled against pre-Islamic Egyptian culture. He is a strange guy.
Sheik Rahman and some other radical Islamic sheiks have threatened to destroy the Egyptian pryamids and the Sphynix.
Read here:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=travel&res=9F0CE3DE173EF930A15754C0A965958260
Here is some history for you history buffs:
Sultan El Aziz did destroy some of the pyramids cerca 1193. Read below:
" Sultan El Aziz attempted to destroy the great pyramids of Giza circa 1193 A.D. He gathered a large labor force that attempted to destroy the pyramids for eight months. At the end of which, they succeeded in only destroying a part of the casing of the pyramid and made a small breach in one side.
Read this link:
http://www.historyofjihad.org/egypt.html
Wasn't Prince Charles in Egypt only a week ago - encouraging moderation in Islam - saying that in the modern day the Islamic text should be taken in spirit and not literally?
Prince Charles must have spent a large amountof time during his visit to Egypt looking at the ancient artifacts and statues. It seems more than coincidence that statues are now forbidden. In a country where its citizens are forced to remain Islamic, under punishment of the law - can now not have a statue in their homes because they might fall and worship it!
I wonder which evil sculptor carved the Kaaba [Holy central relic in Mecca - which all of Islamic people have to kneel and face when they pray {At least the Hindu’s are honest}]. This Kaaba stone/cube had to be sculpted, or was this – too – divinely placed there, by the ‘ONE TRUE GOD’?
Stay tuned - next we might see a fatwa against decorative flower pots!
In the Islamic world it seems that the tail is wagging the dog.
Separation of religion and state.
This will never rule here!
Does anyone remember that buffoonish Saudi prince who bought a huge estate in Hollywood or Beverly Hills in the late 1970s, decorated the large sloping lawn with statues, and then adorned all the female statues with merkins?
I don't recall any fatwas then, but I do remember a whole lot of p****d-off neighbors!
Thanks. I was trying to think of a rhyme for "gherkin".
Lurkin'?
Shirkin'?
Just saw (4/4/06) a short yahoo news videoclip from Reuters with a voice-over by a British sounding female. It concerned restoration of the Sphinx at Giza and included some words from an Egyptian archeologist: "The worst thing that ever happened to the Sphinx was a bad restoration".
hmm. I guess having its nose busted off was a mere trifle.
"a glorified pot-au-feu, an animated merkin..."
This post is not about that immortal postiche of Valerochka. No, it is about the repainting as well of those statues by that Saudi princeling in Bel Air or Beverly Hills. Great fun was had with his bad taste. No one understood what was going on. The Saudi was simply making them islamically acceptable, essentially by vandalizing them, making them into objects of ridicule. The alternative would have been to destroy them, and for some reason he didn't want to do that.
None of the reporters knew about the Muslim ban on statuary (unless it has been vandalized or otherwise made to appear ridiculous). No reporters were studying Islam, or reading Qaradawi, in those days -- things are so very different now, aren't they?
Similarly, when Amina Lawal, a Ngerian woman who was accused of adultery because she became pregnant and had been separated from her husband, and was in danger of being sentenced to in one of the northern, Sharia-enforcing states, and she got off, it was incorrectly reported, because of some technicalities brought up by her lawyer, Hauwa Ibrahim, but because there is a special rule, where there is no evidence other than pregnancy of adultery, that involves a "sleeping fetus" who may have been there for a as long as five years. The "sleeping fetus" principle was never discussed in any of the hundreds or thousands of articles about this case, for it would have required some knowledge of Islam to know that.
Just as with those missing-the-point reporting about those repainted statues.
But doesn't Tom Friedman miss the point, miss all the points, about Islam in every single column he devotes to anything having remotely to do with the Middle East or Islam -- in other words, hasn't he for decades, first as a reporter, and then as a columnist --and a three-time winner of the Pulitzer Prize, which tells us all something about the quality of the judging and the real worth of that prize -- been missing the point about Islam? Of course he has.
And Nicholas Kristof, the anguished bearer of tales from Darfur, the man who hadn't much time for the southern Sudan, no time for many other examples of Arab Muslim persecution and murder of non-Muslims, or of non-Arab Muslims, all over the place, still cannot relate the behavior of the Muslim Arabs in Khartoum and the Janjaweed to Islam as a vehicle for Arab imperialism. That would take many things. It would take the leisure to read and to think. It would take knowledge of history. And it would take something else that comes only after acquirinig a considerable knowledge of history. That is, historical sense. Kristof, like Friedman, like the people who wrote about the Nigerian woman's trial and the Beverly Hills statuary, is a mere reporter, merely reporting. He cannot make sense of what he is reporting, because he does not know enough and for some reason does not think he is under an obligation to learn.
But are these mere reporters any different from the people in Washington who make policies that require vast expenditures, and risking of lives, without having thoroughly studied Islam?
My, how easily so many people let themselves off. How little they ask of themselves. How low they set that bar, right down to the ground, and then they step self-assuredly over it.
In another fatwa in May 2001, Wasel ruled that beauty pageants in which women appear half-naked in front of panels of male judges are haram. The authorities played deaf and Egypt continues to host them.
Those Egyptians know nothing about how to run a beauty pagaent. For an action packed pagaent, turn to Nigeria. Beauties in bathing suits walking down the runway with glittering smiles, crazed angry street demonstrations, fatwas, gun waving, death threats. You name it, your Nigerian Moslem Man can bring your beauty pagaent to life.