One of the clearest, most honest, and best-informed statements about Islam that I have ever seen from a contemporary Christian prelate. George Cardinal Pell, Archbishop of Sydney, speaks at the Legatus Summit in Naples, Florida, on "Islam and Western Democracies" (thanks to all who sent this in):
September 11 was a wake-up call for me personally. I recognised that I had to know more about Islam.In the aftermath of the attack one thing was perplexing. Many commentators and apparently the governments of the “Coalition of the Willing” were claiming that Islam was essentially peaceful, and that the terrorist attacks were an aberration. On the other hand one or two people I met, who had lived in Pakistan and suffered there, claimed to me that the Koran legitimised the killings of non-Muslims.
Although I had possessed a copy of the Koran for 30 years, I decided then to read this book for myself as a first step to adjudicating conflicting claims. And I recommend that you too read this sacred text of the Muslims, because the challenge of Islam will be with us for the remainder of our lives – at least.
Can Islam and the Western democracies live together peacefully? What of Islamic minorities in Western countries? Views on this question range from näive optimism to bleakest pessimism. Those tending to the optimistic side of the scale seize upon the assurance of specialists that jihad is primarily a matter of spiritual striving, and that the extension of this concept to terrorism is a distortion of koranic teaching[1]. They emphasise Islam’s self-understanding as a “religion of peace”. They point to the roots Islam has in common with Judaism and Christianity and the worship the three great monotheistic religions offer to the one true God. There is also the common commitment that Muslims and Christians have to the family and to the defence of life, and the record of co-operation in recent decades between Muslim countries, the Holy See, and countries such as the United States in defending life and the family at the international level, particularly at the United Nations.
[...]
On the pessimistic side of the equation, concern begins with the Koran itself. In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages. I will return to the problems of Koranic interpretation later in this paper, but in coming to an appreciation of the true meaning of jihad, for example, it is important to bear in mind what the scholars tell us about the difference between the suras (or chapters) of the Koran written during Muhammad’s thirteen years in Mecca, and those that were written after he had based himself at Medina. Irenic interpretations of the Koran typically draw heavily on the suras written in Mecca, when Muhammad was without military power and still hoped to win people, including Christians and Jews, to his revelation through preaching and religious activity. After emigrating to Medina, Muhammad formed an alliance with two Yemeni tribes and the spread of Islam through conquest and coercion began[3]. One calculation is that Muhammad engaged in 78 battles, only one of which, the Battle of the Ditch, was defensive[4]. The suras from the Medina period reflect this decisive change and are often held to abrogate suras from the Meccan period[5].
The predominant grammatical form in which jihad is used in the Koran carries the sense of fighting or waging war. A different form of the verb in Arabic means “striving” or “struggling”, and English translations sometimes use this form as a way of euphemistically rendering the Koran’s incitements to war against unbelievers[6]. But in any case, the so-called “verses of the sword” (sura 95 and 936)[7], coming as they do in what scholars generally believe to be one of the last suras revealed to Muhammad[8], are taken to abrogate a large number of earlier verses on the subject (over 140, according to one radical website[9]). The suggestion that jihad is primarily a matter of spiritual striving is also contemptuously rejected by some Islamic writers on the subject. One writer warns that “the temptation to reinterpret both text and history to suit ‘politically correct’ requirements is the first trap to be avoided”, before going on to complain that “there are some Muslims today, for instance, who will convert jihad into a holy bath rather than a holy war, as if it is nothing more than an injunction to cleanse yourself from within”[10].
Be sure to read it all.
Sorry, but this is important:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3246789,00.html
Parents suspected in woman's killing
Shocking murder in North: Parents detained by police after 25-year-old Druze woman stabbed to death Wednesday evening; father initially confesses to murder, then blames mother. Police believe woman killed over suspicions of dishonoring family's image
Hagai Einav
Shocking murder in the North: A 25-year old woman from the village of Rama near Karmiel, in the north of the country, was stabbed to death Wednesday evening in an apparent "honor killing" committed by one or both of her parents.
An "honor killing" is a term used to describe the murder of a female who has tarnished the family's image, usually by engaging in unwarranted sexual activity.
Mother detained – bloodstained pants (Photo: Avihu Shapira)
The victim's father called in the police and initially confessed to murdering his daughter. However, during their interrogation later, both parents blamed each other for the killing.The daughter's body was found in an open field east of a kibbutz Ayelet HaShahar carrying multiple stab wounds. Police officers promptly detained the parents, whose clothes were bloodstained.
A Magen David Adom ambulance team dispatched to the area pronounced the woman dead at the scene. Large police forces also arrived at the site and launched an investigation into the crime.
An initial investigation showed that the woman arrived at the area with her parents to pick fruit. An argument later ensued and at one point one of the parents apparently pulled out a knife and proceeded to stab the victim to death. Police estimate the parents suspected the woman dishonored the family.
Meanwhile, news of the murder spread through the village of Rama. The killed woman belongs to a Druze family that has resided in the community for many years.
A police official said two frightened emergency phone calls were received by police Wednesday evening. A man first reported a stabbing, and later called to say a murder took place. A police cruiser arrived at the scene and spotted a man standing in the area. The man, later identified as the father, led officers to the body, with the mother also present at the scene.
"The man, who after a quick questioning session turned out to be the young woman's father, claimed he murdered his daughter during a dispute. We estimate it was motivated by a suspicion of dishonoring the family," the police official said earlier.
Police officials will bring the parents before a judge and ask that they be kept in custody while the investigation continues.
First Published: 05.03.06, 22:10
Latest Update: 05.03.06, 23:19
Never knew Cardinal Pell was so "on the ball"!!
He came very close to being the Pope recently.
Good for him!!
They point to the roots Islam has in common with Judaism and Christianity and the worship the three great monotheistic religions offer to the one true God.
But muslims don't consider Christians or Jews as monotheistic do they? If they did there would be no dispute except over Mohammad, which should be minor (but isn't).
And also OT this article from http://www.westernresistance.con/
News from the Pakistan Daily Times relates two tales of honor killings in Punjab. In one of these instances, six members of one family were shot dead by their own relatives. The incident happened in a village sixty kilometers (37 miles) from the industrial city of Sheikhupura in the province of Punjab.
According to Dawn the violence took place in Jatree Waseeran village in Nankana Sahib yesterday. The killings were "provoked" by a young man named Azam, who had a relationship with a girl named Aasia. The girl and youth were caught in a compromising situation by the girl's mother, who then told her husband, Khan.
What followed was unbridled carnage. Khan took his son Arshad, as well as four of his relatives (Jaj, Mokha, Amin and a woman, Maryam Bibi) as well as three other individuals and went to the house of Azam's cousin, Hayat. they opened fire on all the family members in the house.
Hayat was killed on the spot, as well as his wife, his father, two of his sons and another relative. Three other relatives were critically injured in the gunfire, and were taken to Mayo hospital. Such is the "justice" of honor killing that the youth who initially provoked the anger, Azam, was not in the house at the time, and did not get shot.
The local police spokesman said that teams had been set up in the area to arrest the perpetrators of the massacre. Other civilians in the region made protests against the violence, saying that the area was becoming more lawless, and that the displaying of weapons had become virtually routine in the district.
In Khanpur village, Chichawatni, near the town of Sahiwal in the central Punjab, late on Tuesday evening, an 18 year old woman had her throat slit by her own brother as she watched television in her room. Sajida Bibi had an afair with her brother-in-law, and eloped with him. Her brother-in-law was charged with abduction and arrested five days ago, and Sajida returned to her parents' home. There, her brother slit her throat and then went to the police to report his crime. He said to police that he had done it for "honor", and that he had no regrets about his actions.
More cases of extreme domestic violence are reported in the Daily Times. In Khanpur Village on the Lahore Road in Punjab province, a man had begun to suspect his wife was having an affair. When his demands that she comply with his wishes and "mend her ways" did not achieve the desired result, he axed her. She died in hospital.
Though all violence is abhorrent, one middle-aged Muslim man's sexual greed led to his downfall in Gulshan-e-Hadeed on the outskirts of the southern city of Karachi. 57-year old Afzal Mughal, a building contractor, already had three wives, but that was not enough for his ego. He already had numerous extra-marital activities, despite having three wives. He planned to add a new and younger bride to his list, about two months ago, and then mysteriously disappeared.
His 45-year old wife Majeeda Khatoon has confessed to police that she sawed off her husband's head with a knife, and dismembered his body, it was revealed yesterday. Her relatives had assisted her in slicing off his limbs, and the body parts were dumped in a sewer. His lower limbs have been found.
A police spokesman said: "The victim was said to bear a passion for women and Khatoon, who was already fed up with her husband's extramarital activities, got annoyed when he said he was going for a fourth marriage."
Though this last case can hardly be called an honor killing, the fact that Khatoon's relatives helped her to dispose of the body shows that the sexist concept of polygamy, though allowed by Islam, is not always accepted by wives who become replaced by younger models.
A recent report by the Pakistan Human Rights Commission (HCRP) stated that about 1,000 honor killings take place in Pakistan every year, with young women the most frequent victims. Often, these cases never get reported. Such is the low status of women in rural parts of Pakistan.
---
Hey Naseem, this is the peace you promise? You really should warn your son's girlfriend what she is in for. The reality not the fantasy of your country.
I know I am preaching to the choir here, but I applaud Cardinal Pell's article. I wish more Christian clerics would speak up in this rational manner.
The woman in Paki has been arrested and will probably in the end, get killed over this. I can only imagine the hellhole a Paki penitentery would be, but IMHO she doesn't deserve death. Had she been allowed to divorce the s.o.b., he might still be alive. How much humiliation is a woman to take? AND, since she had MALE relatives assist, apparently they thought he deserved it also.
This is honor killing in reverse.
Naseem, how many wives does your husband have?
The article from Cardinal Pell is truly a breath of air. It is good that more Christians are speaking out on this life vs. death issue of international Muslim jihad. What Cardinal Pell did was say no to wrongful dhimmitude. Also warns Christians to read up as much as possible about Islam and to be ready to stand up to the Muslims.
A PS : Forgot to add the word "fresh" as in the term, a breath of fresh air.
freewoman,
The above article comfirms what I aways believed about Islam, that it is an oppressive faith of women.
I've never been a fan of Cardinal Pell - until today, that is.
Clearly, he has dedicated a great deal of time and effort to an objective study of Islam and has not been sidelined by PC, nor has he been influenced by the dhimmified mainstream media.
In this arena, he can now count me as a fan.
It is becoming clear that the new Pope views Islam as a serious menace. He has refrained from speaking so clearly himself, but the Catholic Church is mobilizing intellectually; we keep seeing high-ranking clerics speaking like this one. Hopefully, what John Paul II was to communism, Benedict XVI will be to Islam.
I liked the Cardinal's article too. I didn't agree with his comments on secularism, but as far as his presentation on Islam...looked pretty good to me. I'm glad this guy is in an influential position.
One minor thing that caught my eye, in reading his article:
"Muhammad simply wrote down God’s eternal and immutable words as they were dictated to him by the Archangel Gabriel."
The author(s) of the Koran claimed that the "messenger" (Mohammad) was illiterate (e.g., 7:157-158) and there are other statements to indicate that Mohammad (if he existed) used scribes. One such scribe was reported to have even changed the words, and later apostatized because he did not believe that a prophet guided by "Allah" would have allowed his changes in wording.
Bigcatgirl, islam is the worst thing that could EVER happen to women.
I could never imagine not being able to make my own decisions, come and go as I want, having someone FORCE me to get married and have children year after year, molest my children, share a husband and then to top it off, beat me at his whim!!!
If every muslim woman today beheaded their husbands, I think the roar of HOORAY...WOOOHOOOO!!! would be heard around the world.
In related News anti-dhimmitude from Israel
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3247068,00.html
Lieberman: Judge Arabs MKs like in Nuremberg
(VIDEO) Unprecedented attack by Israel Our Home head on Arab Knesset Members: 'At the end of the Second World War not only criminals were killed in Nuremberg but also those who collaborated with them. I hope this will be the fate of the collaborators in this house.' Tibi: 'Lieberman crossed all red lines'
Ilan Marciano
VIDEO - Israel Our Home Chairman Avigdor Lieberman said Thursday that “Arab Knesset Members who collaborate with the enemy an meet with Hamas heads should be dealt with sternly”
"At the end of the Second World War, not only criminals were executed in the Nuremberg trials, but also those who collaborated with them. I hope that will be the fate of the collaborators in this house," Lieberman declared.
Video: Knesset Channel
He continued: "We demanded in that in the basic principles it be written: All those who incite and cooperate with terror and who sit in this house – should be punished. All those who continue to freely meet with Hamas, with Hizbullah, who go to make visits in Lebanon.
“Just two days ago they declared Israel's Independence Day as Nakba day (day of disaster) and raised black flags. There is a directive on terrorism, according to which those who collaborate with it must face the law," Lieberman added.
This needs to be disseminated widely, indeed shouted from the rooftops. It is a hopeful sign that the taboo about telling the truth publicly about Islam is being broken. Cardinal Pell is a public figure and cannot be written off lightly as an 'Islamophobe'.
I hope and pray this article will give courage to many of us to speak up now without fear of being tarred with the 'islamophobe' and 'racist' brush.
This article should be given to every acquaintance, placed in every church porch, sent to every newspaper, all politicians and all 'intellectuals'.
Cardinal Pell has read not just the Koran, but Bat Ye'or, Andrew Bostom and Daniel Pipes. All he needs now is a copy of PIG!
I might even start going to Mass again, but first I will celebrate with a glass of wine!
What do you all think? Is it really a breakthrough?
"One calculation is that Muhammad engaged in 78 battles, only one of which, the Battle of the Ditch, was defensive.."
At the end of this siege, Mohammed oversaw the cold blooded murder, by beheading, of hundreds of Jewish men and boys (non combatents) who had supposedly sided with the enemy.
That wasn't very defensive.
It was an action that would have shamed Hitler's Einzatzgruppen and even gets a passing mention in chapter 33 of the koran.
freewoman says "If every muslim woman today beheaded their husbands, I think the roar of HOORAY...WOOOHOOOO!!! would be heard around the world".
That is one of the very worst sexist and racist remarks I have ever read! Anyone who says that the infedel are less racist, nasty and hateful had better think again.
Indeed it does not do much for this website's reputation either.
Ofcourse one can pick out isolated violent "honor" killings....this is true of any society and yes we have our fair share of it in Pakistan....I have never denied this.
What I DO deny however is Fatcatgirl's comment that "Islam,is an oppressive faith of women".
NO.... pristine Islam patently is NOT oppressive to womens. If that was the case lots of them would be leaving Islam...and that is not happening...infact womens are some of the most ardent supporters of Islam.
That some mensfolk want to take advantage of the situation is undeniable...there are evil mens in all societies and Allah SWT forbid...even Islamic.
The clincher for me though is that Allah has put in checks & balances so that Islamic womens THEMSELVES know their place in society....thus there is little chaos for the ummah.
This is not the case for western womens with big mouths and anti-society attitudes. This situation needs to be arrested.
In the medium term future as Islam grows & matures in America...the constitution will need to be amended in parts to cater for the Islam.
This will be to bring about a superior way of life to your childrens. Less spending, greater morals, more prayer, Islamic bookshops, Jilbab shops, halal meat shops ...I mean it's gonna be wonderful...I just cannot wait.
Also the womens there will have a wonderful change of attitude...waering a jilbab gives them freedom from lecterious mens...no longer the stupid low whistles or bum pinching.
The mens too after conversion will perhaps want to marry more than one woman...not for me really but Allah's greater foresight has allowed this for the mens and womens who want this...without force or compulsion ofcourse.
So I say to you, stop your racists and sexist attitudes...and instead prepare your childrens for integration into Islam.
Allah SWT has ordained this future for us ALL ...it is only right that we show the greatest humility for the freedoms that this will bring.
There can be no greater gift that you give to your childrens...please DON't delay....
Allah Hafiz
I liked this article but WTF did he mean by this?
In the past pagans sacrificed animals and even humans in vain attempts to placate capricious and cruel gods. Today they demand a reduction in carbon dioxide emissions.
does he actually believe that people who want to use less gas and other produce less toxins that poison the earth as Pagans?!!
Yea right, I prefer to find alternate energy sources so I'm not giving money to countries that want to see me dead...So I'm a pagan..WTF?
Allah Hafiz : "NO.... pristine Islam patently is NOT oppressive to womens. If that was the case lots of them would be leaving Islam...and that is not happening..."
Ummmmmmmmmm, there's the teeny weeny problem of apostacy for anyone who wants to leave Islam. That might just be a factor in deciding whether to renounce it. Look at what that chap in Afghanistan had to go through, let alone some poor powerless woman in an Islamic country with no media coverage to save her.
Cardinal Pell provides an excellent and succinct summing up of the issues regarding Islam and Jihad. I printed out a copy to show my dad. He's very much of a "reasonableness above all else" kind of guy. I gave him the "PIG to Islam" for Christmas but I don't know how much of it he actually read.
One question about the Catholic Church in Australia though. When the Pakistani born evangelical preacher Daniel Scot was tried and convicted of hate speech for quoting from the Koran in a seminar on Islam, the local Catholic church joined with mainline Protestant churches in siding with the Islamic Council of Victoria and applauding the verdict. Is Victoria part of a different Archdiocese than Sydney? Who is the bishop there? I don't have a good grasp of geography in Australia. It's all upside down to me.
A well thought out speech and article, albeit long. It's good to see that people in high places get their research from the same authors I frequently read. This adds credence to their writings.
It would be nothing short of fantastic (but maybe too much to hope for) if the current Pope would mirror the Cardinals' thoughts in public. Maybe the Pope privately condones this type of outspoken dialogue from his charges.
There has been way too much publicity surrounding the idea that Islam is the ROP. This needs to be countered with the truth that it is nothing more than a fatalistic, nefarious deathcult. Public opinion needs to be changed.
Muslims need to hear that the truth will set you free.
Naseem, maybe I didn't 'splain my comment to where you could understand.
It would FREE muslim women from the HELLHOLE islam has FORCED them into. They would be FREE from the HELL that being married to a muslim male puts them in. They would be FREE from rape, torture, humiliation, coverings, their children being raped by their fathers and kin, FGM, and all the other atrocities islam inflicts on women and children. THESE MUSLIM WOMEN WOULD BE SCREAMING HOORAY!!! WOOOHOOOOO!!!!
We're free. Free at last!!!!
(oh, and btw, that was not a racist remark. I'm beginning to REALLY wonder if you aren't a man. As I've said in a previous post..."no self respecting woman would utter such words. And there is no way that your idol worshiping life can equal any of my freedoms. Men forcing you to wear head and body coverings are not freedom. Think about it. And I will tell you another thing... I get SO angry when I hear of honor killings. These poor girls and women have value and do not deserve to be killed because they love some other guy instead of their cousin, leave the house without a male escort, wear fingernail polish, look at a man, have sex(something muslim men do with impunity, rape included) or are raped by a family member. If you were a real woman , you would be outraged by honor killings and be out doing something to change your country's archaic laws. And if I think muslim women don't deserve to be treated like trash and dirt, maybe sexist it is. So be it.)
Freewoman: when I see women - as in Naseem above - defending islam, I think two words: Stockholm Syndrome. It helps defuse my anger and transmute it into pity. Her triumphalist diatribes are best ignored, IMHO. She is an agent provocateuse (if that's a word!)
Silvester, I just think of brainwashing. Truly, I pity them.
But, freewoman, don't you want to waer a jilbab and thereby get freedom from lecterious mens?
LOL
I always liked being looked at. There's something about being blonde that turns their heads!!
Naseem,
"freewoman says "If every muslim woman today beheaded their husbands, I think the roar of HOORAY...WOOOHOOOO!!! would be heard around the world".
That is one of the very worst sexist and racist remarks I have ever read! Anyone who says that the infedel are less racist, nasty and hateful had better think again.
Indeed it does not do much for this website's reputation either.
Ofcourse one can pick out isolated violent "honor" killings....this is true of any society and yes we have our fair share of it in Pakistan....I have never denied this.
What I DO deny however is Fatcatgirl's comment that "Islam,is an oppressive faith of women".
NO.... pristine Islam patently is NOT oppressive to womens. If that was the case lots of them would be leaving Islam...and that is not happening...infact womens are some of the most ardent supporters of Islam.
That some mensfolk want to take advantage of the situation is undeniable...there are evil mens in all societies and Allah SWT forbid...even Islamic.
The clincher for me though is that Allah has put in checks & balances so that Islamic womens THEMSELVES know their place in society....thus there is little chaos for the ummah.
This is not the case for western womens with big mouths and anti-society attitudes. This situation needs to be arrested.
In the medium term future as Islam grows & matures in America...the constitution will need to be amended in parts to cater for the Islam.
This will be to bring about a superior way of life to your childrens. Less spending, greater morals, more prayer, Islamic bookshops, Jilbab shops, halal meat shops ...I mean it's gonna be wonderful...I just cannot wait.
Also the womens there will have a wonderful change of attitude...waering a jilbab gives them freedom from lecterious mens...no longer the stupid low whistles or bum pinching.
The mens too after conversion will perhaps want to marry more than one woman...not for me really but Allah's greater foresight has allowed this for the mens and womens who want this...without force or compulsion ofcourse.
So I say to you, stop your racists and sexist attitudes...and instead prepare your childrens for integration into Islam.
Allah SWT has ordained this future for us ALL ...it is only right that we show the greatest humility for the freedoms that this will bring.
There can be no greater gift that you give to your childrens...please DON't delay....
Allah Hafiz "
Sadly, your true colors are begining to show. The truth and the reality is that true fastest growing faith is the Christian faith, with the global south nations in Africa, Asia, and Latin America living proof that there is a Christian boom going on. More people in the global south are coming to faith in Christ and new church communities are coming to life.
Also for your information, women in the Christian faith have been a whole lot better because of how the founder treated women, starting with love for his own beloved mother. Also the apostle who wrote the most New Testement books also stated that " with Christ, there is neither Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female ". Also calls on husbands to "love their wives as Christ loves his church and gaved up his life for her ". So women from the begining have received love, acceptance, and respect in the Christian faith.
Because of that reality, women have played a positive force for good in the Christian faith; as it is still done to the present day. Even at this moment, there is a Christian woman bringing the good news of the Gospel somewhere in this world. This is confirmed in the fact that now the global south are now sending missionaries to the west where missionaries were first sent many years ago. Do not be suprised if a number of women who have been Muslim have left Islam to become Christian believers.
Naseem, may you find real truth that will give you true peace.
Bigcatgirl, do you think Naseem has had a stroke by now?? I do hope she/he gets her/his blood pressure checked.
freewoman,
I had to shock Naseen with the truth, which I hope can set her free.
High five Bigcatgirl!
Well here's one that will make freewoman and bigcatgirl13106 happy and Naseem too, since she can point to a non-muslim doing the same. Even though the circumstances were very different. Attacking your husband when she could have left and attacking your middle of the night rapist employer who thought that was included in the job discription.
Will she be deported or executed as an example?
from http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Maid Inspired by Lorena Bobbit
Arab News
RIYADH, 2 May 2006 — Authorities have opened an investigation into a case of a severed penis belonging to an alleged rapist, the Okaz daily reported. A man arrived at an emergency room in the capital with his severed penis, which was reattached after speedy surgery. According to the report, the man allegedly snuck into his maid’s quarters after his wife had gone to sleep and attempted to rape her. The Filipina managed to escape his advances, rushed into the kitchen and got a knife. Despite her weapon, the man attempted to assault the maid, who, in return, pulled a “Lorena Bobbit” defense and cut off the man’s penis. Bobbit was the New Jersey woman who, in a high-profile 1993 case in the US, severed her husband’s penis with an eight-in blade.
Bigcatgirl.,.,.,.,.don't be a fool. Jesus is a revered prophet of Islam. . . . you have been lied to about christainity. Read the Koran and Hadith and not the bible.
Freewoman says "Silvester, I just think of brainwashing. Truly, I pity them".
Why pity us, I am quite happy.,.,.,you are the brainwashed one thinking that sh*t.
Freewoman says "I'm beginning to REALLY wonder if you aren't a man. As I've said in a previous post..."no self respecting woman would utter such words. And there is no way that your idol worshiping life can equal any of my freedoms. Men forcing you to wear head and body coverings are not freedom".
You can think what you like...your head is full of sh*it anyway. Look at the situation in Turkey, it is the womens who have tried to force the issue saying that they *want* to wear scarves and jilbabs.,.,. you are just not well informed I'm sorry to say.
Cardinal Pell gave an impressive summary of the important points about the Quran, about the contradictions, the abrogated Meccan suras, etc. He seems to have brought out the essentials.
Now, on the issue of the meaning of jihad, I get annoyed with the fools who claim that it means "a spiritual struggle" and all that mystical, foggy drivel. I also get annoyed with the Muslim propagandists who feed those fools and ignoramuses, even if the fools are well paid journalists, foundation wonks, influential broadcasters and the like.
However, I think it's a waste of time to counter that oily, silly, rose-colored interpretation of jihad by referring to the hadith or Quran or Sunna, etc. I think the point is much better made by referring to the 1350 years of Muslim conflict with other peoples and religions, with Muslim expansion, the enslavement of people in Dar al-Harb, or even dhimmis in Dar al-Islam, the robbing people of their children, as in the Balkans --devshirme [copied partially by the Russian empire for use against Jews, the Jewish boys called cantonists in the 19th century], even the enslavement of fellow Muslims on occasion, the Muslim contempt for human life, especially of non-Muslims, but not only of non-Muslims [think of the 120,000 Muslims slaughtered by fellow in Algeria in the last 15 years!]. I think that recounting the history of jihad is more effective in making people understand what jihad means than tedious quibbling of what this hadith or that hadith means, and whether the hanbalis were more or less in favor of jihad than the malikis or the shafi'is, etc.
I think Naseem just called me a sh#thead.
It may come to this - harsh reprisals against the entire community.
At the moment the suicide bomber murders dozens of Infidels and his family still continue to draw their social security and other benefits - the UK is the dhimmi to beat all dhimmis. There is thus no reprisal or punishment as the suicide bomber is just that.
In the UK murderers, rapists and other assorted convicted foreign criminals, who were illegally in the country in the first place, cannot be deported, as their countries are regarded as unsafe. Interestingly, a convicted foreign criminal released into the community, among thousands such, was being hunted by the police. Well guess what? He has fled back to Somalia.
Eliyahu:
It's a good point. I suspect both approaches combined is necessary, but the historical - and current - record is, as you say, really the thing. What's the relevance of silly etymological arguments about a word against huge historical facts?
Amusingly enough, the apologetics are not always internally consistent, as they come from different sources, so we have this today:
No doubts here about what jihad means, merely a ridiculous claim that something called "orthodox Islam" doesn't have jihad.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4942924.stm
As she may well be four Saudi men with scruffy beards that have never known a razor working on a rolling shift, I'm not surprised.
Jerry M posted: I know I am preaching to the choir here, but I applaud Cardinal Pell's article. I wish more Christian clerics would speak up in this rational manner.
I wish as a start, PM Blair and Pres Bush will stop their religion of peace idiocy. Leading the WoT while at the same time parroting the RoP mantra, they are effectivley conceding the ethical and moral high ground to the enemy.
"In the medium term future as Islam grows & matures in America...the constitution will need to be amended in parts to cater for the Islam."
Posted by: Naseem
I assume that by "medium term" you mean over my dead body.
You are losing the PR battle despite the best efforts of the MSM.
The cartoon jihad, the nut-case in Iran and the 12th iman garbage, the Darfur genocide. Islam is showing its true colors to the West. Haven't you seen the NBC poll? People in the US are becoming more distrustful of muslims despite knowing more about it.
But I do agree the Constitution needs to amended to cater to islam. We need to change the Constitution to outlaw the moon worshipping cult
I see this thread has been sucessfully derailed by one of the Naseems (yet again). (Why do we give her so much power?.) She's an able distractor.
Cardinal Pell's text, for me, is a milestone.
Maybe this sounds pathetic, but I feel it has given me the green-light to be more open about my views. I now have more confidence to say to people, look even the Catholic Archbishop of Sydney recognises this truth and shares these views.
Yes,Iknow we have truth on our side, and the work of people like Mr. Spencer and Hugh, but to have a public figure come out and state the facts that we all know gives us a lot more ammunition.
I hope this important article will not be discredited by RC-bashers to serve their own agendas. But then nothing suprises me anymore(one of the joys of getting older, I suppose!)
I see this thread has been sucessfully derailed by one of the Naseems (yet again). (Why do we give her so much power?.) She's an able distractor.
Posted by: Silvester
Speaking for myself, I like to rant
Dear Mr Ape Pig,
I do see your point, there is no greater ranter on occasion than myself.
But for some reason, this article by C. Pell has really hit home with me and I just wish we could have discussed it more!
Is mise le meas
Silvester
I was reading Cardinal Pell just now and thinking it sounds like he has been reading Bat Yeor, and I see from his bibilography at the end that he has.
"By George, he's got it",
I'm keeping that article in my safe folder, it will be very useful.
Silvester, back to the original forum, I think the hard part of this is getting people to talk openly about islam. And maybe it's best the clergy come out first. Holy men speaking openly of this cult would enable the rest of us to realize it's not something we can afford to keep hushed. I too was like the Archbishop. Before 9/11 I knew nothing of islam.
Sorry about the offshoot. I too , get on my soapbox.
freewoman,
Thank you for making my day. :-)
Here are some pictures of what happens to women in islam. They have so much freedom that they get beat to a pulp if they try to exercise any of it.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/3.htm
Also, surf the photo gallery itself for other equally disturbing pictures of the joys which await us all if the islamic deathcult takes over.
Naseem,
"Bigcatgirl.,.,.,.,.don't be a fool. Jesus is a revered prophet of Islam. . . . you have been lied to about christainity. Read the Koran and Hadith and not the bible. "
Naseem, It is a joy to be a Christian and would rather read the Holy Bible. It is the greatest book ever writen and the number # 1 best selling book of all time.
The answer is thank you, but NO THANKS to reading the Koran and Hadith. And no speaking of Jesus as a " revered prophet " in Islam is enough to change my mind. Christanity is truth because Jesus is " the way, the truth, and the life ".
Silvester,
I do not think Naseem was really sucessful hijacking this thread. As you see, she has been corrected a number of times by not just myself but a few other posters. The truth is that the more light that is expose to Islam, the better the truth comes out.
Aww, you're welcome bigcatgirl!!
Yes, Granny
If you look at the end notes, he has read, as well as the Koran, Bat Ye'or, Andrew Bostom and Daniel Pipes, inter alia. Very hopeful.
Granny, how are you getting on?As anlrishwoman living in England, you and Interested, Vikram and Dominic represent the best of England for me, and maybe Yojimbo, cos I'm not sure where he lives, and others whose names escape me right now. Alan Clifford has made me wary, as I said elsewhere, of making common cause with the other Christian denominations, unfortunately I had no idea there was such virulent RC hatred out there, but I suppose, you live and learn!
You know, it's funny, I can see now why criticism can make a person revert/cling to their cultural religion, as in the culture/religion they were born into, it's visceral.
I absolutely hated the Catholicism I was brought up in. Having said that, it did most definitely not come from my parents, but from the schools and, in a small town, the pervasiveness of it. And it wasn't a joyful southern type of Catholicism, but a cold, miserable, you-are-evil, second-hand goods if you were a woman etc and the marching down to Benediction, and the bitchy nuns, some of them of course, certainly not all, but it felt so oppressive and joyless. Certainly English RCatholicism seems much more joyful and positive, as an English Catholic friend said to me: English Catholics are the best in the world and RC seems to be much more positive in England. But I must admit I was so stunned by Alan Clifford's dislike of Catholicism, I suppose I thought all that belonged to history.
Sorry for the rant. The point I was trying to make, very ineffectually, is that criticism can lead to entrenchment. I'm a non-practicing RC butthe more I hear it criticised, the more I feel like reverting to it.
And that's what we have to deal with with our muslim siblings.
On another note, if anyone has read this far: what do posters in the UK feel about setting up a charity/fund/underground railroad for endangered Jews/apostate muslims in the UK if there isn't one already (needs research)?
Good for the Cardinal and good for the Pope. It's time that some top people came out about their researches into islam. We need mainstream and respected figures to quote when we talk to our friends and acquaintances.
I have just converted two more people to the cause, one of whom is a methodist local preacher on a circuit in East London, which is over run with moslems.
Dominic.
bigcatgirl, I'm sure you're right, but I just felt so excited that someone in the public eye had finally come out and told the truth that I didn't want to see the subject go off-topic.
All the best..
Oops, I didn't mean to imply that Robert or Hugh or anyone here isn't respected. Sorry.
Dominic.
Greetings Silvester,
I am well and glad to read your comments more frequently again these last few months. Interested and I have ventured into another arena as well.
I have had Dr Clifford commended to me from several sources whose opinion I respect. I like much of what he says about Islam but, from what I gather from the Norwich Reform Church website, he and I would have to agree to differ on a few things (me being an ecumenically minded Anglican who strongly supports the ordination of women.)
The one thing we can be sure of is that no matter how much he may disagree with the way you and I worship the Lord he will not be sentencing us to the punishment of the apostate, as would happen in Islam.
Many criticise the Anglican communion as being a bit vague and woolley, but that can sometimes be our strength, being a broad church means it takes all sorts, and we get all sorts.
So far as endangered Jews and apostates is concerned I know that the Barnabas Fund is expanding its operation with the Right to Justice Campaign.
God bless George.
Will have to go to 11 o'clock Sunday mass at St Marys to personally thank him.
Granny
Yes, the New English Review, Well Done and I wish you success with it. I see you have Theodore Dalrymple there, I've always appreciated his writings.
I'm a huge fan of the Barnabus Fund and fully support them when I have a few spare bob, but from reading your link, I get the impression they are concerned here with non-muslims in a muslim majority environment, which of course I also support.
But what about muslims here in Europe that have left their religion and are facing ostracism, threats etc who may need, at the very least, financial support. Are you aware of any bodies/charities that dedicate themselves to this? Now, there maybe some, but I'm not aware of them right now, and Rebecca W's post on another thread has made me think about this, because I remember reading in one of the UK dailies about a year ago about the problems former muslims in England face when they either leave Islam or convert to another religion.
Silvester
No I am not aware of any organisations dedicated solely to converts from Islam in the UK. I know that Patrick Sookhedeo has spoken of the problems and done some low key work in some cases, but it is right that the Barnabas Fund gives a higher profile to their work in Muslim majority countries.
I'll do some research, although by it's very nature such assistance, like women's refuges, is likely to be discreet.
Granny
Yes, I'm going to do some research on this as well over the weekend when I have more time and maybe get in touch with Patrick Sookhedeo as well, because it may well be there is a need here.
I for one would welcome being able to do something more tangible, apart from giving to appropriate charities. And I really don't mean egotism to come into this - but one feels so helpless sometimes as to what one can actually do apart from consciousness-raising, and as I'm sure you know yourself, this can be monstrously difficult in the current PC climate.
But yes, no doubt it has to be kept very quiet.
That's why I pin such hopes on articles such as C. Pell's, I feel they give me more 'permission' to speak out.
.... pristine Islam patently is NOT oppressive to womens. - posted by Naseem
'pristine'
Yet another Muslim yearning for an imaginary Arcadia.
The solution is always 'MORE ISLAM'
Honestly, once you know the texts and the thought processes arising from them, you can predict everything they're going to say and do. Which should make them a very easy enemy to defeat, if we but bothered to read their texts.
Dear Mr Ape Pig,
I do see your point, there is no greater ranter on occasion than myself.
But for some reason, this article by C. Pell has really hit home with me and I just wish we could have discussed it more!
Is mise le meas
Silvester
You are right, this is a good article and a very good sign. In the future I will do my best to ignore "Lahore-Rose".
This weekend I will be sure to toast the Archbishop of Sydney, more than just once.
Mr A Pig
'Lahore-Rose'
LOL!
The only other thing I wish Cardinal Pell has mentioned is the prescriptive nature, as opposed to the descriptive nature, of the Koran, because, to be sure, there will be a chorus of voices clamouring about the violence in the Torah and drawing the usual moral equivalencies. (sp).
Silvester,
When I do want to fine out what the Koran has to say on a subject, I go to the internet which has done a great service in providing info about the Koran. Also, on what you said about Cardinal Pell, who is very couragous to speak out on the truth of Islam, my response on the Bible and violence is that these were one time events and are warnings against taking up violence.
Well, I do not know any Christians who take follow the Mosaic Law. And there is some theology involved in God's reported massacres in the Torah. Perhaps God had to do a bit of evil in order to have better good.
It seems Cardinal Pell has a better understanding of Islam then many Muslim scholars. I can only hope that the Catholic Church can do something to peacefully change Islam, if not the new Pope should declare a new Crusade. Simple as that.
Yes, I only mentioned this because it is a common attack mechanism of the muslims to say 'but your texts are just as violent'.
I just think it would have pre-empted these accusations if Cardinal Pell had addressed this by saying that the Torah is historical, but that the Koran is ahistorical, a prescription for all times.
Cardinal Pell's article is good, but there is one significant place he misses, as do many Christian (especially Catholic) theologians.
"In the Muslim understanding, the Koran comes directly from God, unmediated. Muhammad simply wrote down God’s eternal and immutable words as they were dictated to him by the Archangel Gabriel. It cannot be changed, and to make the Koran the subject of critical analysis and reflection is either to assert human authority over divine revelation (a blasphemy), or question its divine character. The Bible, in contrast, is a product of human co-operation with divine inspiration."
In the Jewish (normative, Orthodox) understanding, the five books of Moses (Torat Moshe) were written almost exclusively by Moshe as dictated by G-d. It cannot be changed either (although it can be analyzed to some extent)and the words themselves cannot be questioned although they can be analyzed, examined, and explored. In this respect, Islam and Judaism, are, if not exactly the same, then very similar.
However, the Torat Moshe (first five books of the "Old Testament"), which is also a historical-religious text (according to normative Judaism)as is the Qur'an,
1)provides overt laws (mishpatim and chukim)and embedded commandments (mitzvot)
2)these laws and commandments, while addressing issues such as murder and theft, constantly emphasize considered judgment and structure to allow for circumstances,
3)these laws and commandments condemn murder and theft, and restrict and limit war booty and excessiveness,
4)these laws and commandments emphasize kindness, generosity, responsibility, care, etc, and
5)a system of legal amendment exists which has been going on for thousands of years, first by judges, kings and prophets, and also and recently exclusively by rabbis (and "the people");
6)this system includes a lot of room for dispute but also ways to change certain behaviors (but not core behaviors) within a changing cultural context.
My point is that one doesn't have to contrast the narrow origin of the Islamic belief system with the Christian belief system as a rationale for how Islam has developed. Judaism has developed from an equally narrow origin as Islam but its content is far different. It is the structure of Moslem practice and its content that is key.
The similarity of these three monotheistic religions does not bear much scrutiny. Without even having to refer to Allah as a "moon god" or pagan holdover however, any "god" that condones or encourages child murder, theft, rape, and torture (to name just a few items) is not the same G-d that the Jews recognize.
HaMalach
Thank you for not chiding me for my description of the Torah as historical. It is indeed historical-religious and I omitted that latter part in my ignorance. Sorry.
Is it not amazing the changes you get when you actually read the Koran! thanks for the great story about Cardinal Pell, l am sure that there are many more like him. the internet will be the key to warning the west about the evil religion of peices! oh Naseem, you sound more like a man! what women in their Freakin right mind would want to go in some sack with an ugly bag on their heads! l mean these muslim women look downright dawdy with their dark colours and shapeless sacks..get a grip Naseem...
Christian men truly are more stronger willed than muslim men, Christian men can control themselves you do not need to cover yourself up in the WEst.LOL Women are very powerful in the West! muslim men only like weak minded docile stupid women.. you need to read the New Testament and join Chistians! Jesus will forgive you!
http://www.cathnews.com/news/605/29.php
"There are so many of them, [calls to violence]however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages," he said.
But he said: "it is easy for us to tell Muslims that they must look to themselves and find ways of reinterpreting their beliefs and remaking their societies. Exactly the same thing can and needs to be said to us."
Cardinal Pell said the West's secularism spawns "meaninglessness." The West also needs to "understand the secular sources of emptiness and despair and how to meet them, so that people will choose life over death."
--
These above are the main points of this newspaper article. Okay, fair enough, they did at least mention the calls to violence in the Koran, but they went on to cherry-pick the rest of C Pell's speech in order to give a totally misleading impression of what his actual message was, ie they deflected the main thrust of it.
And this from what sounds like a Catholic publication, not even an MSM. Is it any wonder we cannot take what they say with more than a grain of salt.
Infuriating.
But I suppose it's balanced and nuanced, which are two of our new politically-correct-mandated virtues.
Why couldn't they just publish the article in toto? Why do we need journalists to interpret the world for us?
Above- actually they did link to the actual speech to give them their due, with the rider 'not necessarily endorsed by Catholic Resourses.
The article itself, however, is suspect.
Lulu, that was my point. How could any self respecting woman utter the words women shouldn't have power(from a previous topic) or that islam is not oppressive to women.
I'm sure if it weren't for the religion, those women wouldn't wear burkas, jilbabs, let their husbands rape their children, keep them in the house, let their husbands marry other women, and then stick around to be beat by them. And I guess to top it off , they aren't allowed to leave the hive(islam). They are brainwashed from birth to think they are useless except to breed and be there for their husband to have sex with. I feel sorry for them.
And for Naseem to say "pick out isolated violent honor killings", that has to be a male talking.
Malta - the case involving Daniel Scott happened in the state of Victoria (capital city - Melbourne) which is the only state in Australia to enact such laws. The case was decided by a legal tribunal, which found that the two Christian pastors had vilified Islam. Some 'liberal' Christians welcomed the decision, but others saw it as a serious threat to free speech in Australia. The traditional Christian church in Australia is losing members because of its refusal to oppose obvious setups like the Scott case.
Cardinal Pell is the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Sydney, capital city of the state of New South Wales.
Don't quote me on this - but I think Pell was in a Catholic church after the Cronulla "riots" (Riots - what was burnt, destroyed, or razed to the ground? nothing! Maybe infidel rioters should take a few lessons off Muslim rioters!)
The church he was in was shot at numerous times in a short space of time -(which considering our gun laws that only allow bolt action rifles - well the peace lovers obviously don't follow our gun laws). The Church was full of Catholic celebrating Christmas via singing carols (hey dare they offend the Lakemba Muslims by doing so!)
To my knowledge police still haven't arrested anyone over the shooting - or in fact any Muslim who participated in the revenge attacks (bar two Peace Lovers who tore down a RSL Aussie flag - raping women, shooting and burning churches is OK in NSW, but pulling an Aussie flag down isn't. Maybe NSW needs a Christian Premier, rather than the Dhimmi one they have now - whose electorate is Lakemba).
I'm sure it was Pell in the Church - but I could be wrong. Maybe a Sydneyite/Mexican could set the record straight.
silvester says "I see this thread has been sucessfully derailed by one of the Naseems (yet again)".
I most patently did not derail this thread.
I HAD to respond to a powerful but most inaccurate statement made by "freewoman"...who asks for all mulimas to MURDER their husbands.
I HAD to respond to such vile and violent words. I see that all you peoples let it "ride" too. Freewoman may well be a potential murderer herself...how she has changed...ironically she calls for heads like most extreme vile "leaders" like bin-laden himseld does....this is something I have never done.
The infedel is full of hate.
The other thing is this "I feel sorry or pity" rubbish for Islamic womens. WHY? Most of the womens I know are very happy with their lotand proud to be muslims....reading books is not like living it...you are devoid of reality I'm afraid. Don't be sorry for mulimas.
Freewoman, Never forget that your
daughters/grand daughters too will be muslimas....you need to give it time...what else do you have anyway...
grand-daughter of muslima "freewoman".
Salam to you.
3rdtimelucky,
I don't think that it was Pell in that church that was shot at. And just to clarify, a number of people (from both sides) have been arrested over the riot and subsequent mayhem. Unfortunately, except for a few light sentences handed down to those who got caught on tape most have been released due to legal advice that there was very little possibility of a conviction.
And the most severe violence did not happen on tape, of course.
Back to Pell, I was quite surprised with these statements and realisations as in the past I have not had a very positive opinion of him. But he did not say anything that many here do not already know, it is simply his profile that gets the exposure.
And the Islamic Council of NSW is already throwing a fit so it will get even more exposure.
"Maybe NSW needs a Christian Premier, rather than the Dhimmi one they have now - whose electorate is Lakemba)." from 3rdtimelucky above.
I think that should be Lakembastan. That suburb was built, like many others in the hot grey western suburbs of Sydney, by men returning from service in WWII. People who had fought the Japanese to a stand-still in the jungles of New Guinea. Others had fought the Germans through North Africa and earlier campaigns in Greece and Crete. Some came back from hellish conditions as war prisoners in Burma, Singapore, and other hell holes and killing fields.
How would they consider their legacy?
Getting back to the point, a Christian Premier for NSW: Good idea, I nominate Daniel Scott.
AngryMuppet, like I said - I could be wrong, but I saw a news report soon after it happened and I'm sure Pell was on TV - he was visibility shaken.
Ozi_bloke - I second that - Daniel Scot - FOR PM!!!!!
Just read a report on Optusnews that the Greens (a leftist party) are now demanding Pells resignation.
Naseems either your dilusional or a man, as no self respecting women would want to have other women in bondage! Islam is its last throes, you dont have ignorant masses to deal with Naseem, you have people who actually can read and think for themselves in the West.
Naseem, you're a nut.
Freewoman says "Naseem, you're a nut".
And you are a potential murderer....I feel sorry & pity your boyfriend or your husband.
Naseem,
It is good that Cardinal Pell speaks the truth about Islam. The truth can be so liberating. Also it is a good sign that Christians are saying "enough" to being treated like dhimmis. God Bless Cardinal Pell.
Lulu, freewoman,
When a non-Muslim speaks the truth, the non-Muslim is treated so badly. The Muslim thinks that the non-Muslim is hateful when in fact the non-Muslim is simply just presenting what are the facts on the ground are.
Hi Bigcatgirl...sometimes you just have to consider the source.
I have read the article and it´s good very good, I have read very well things about Cardinal Pell, he is very criticised for being orthodox to the faith, and try to get better the great secularism in Australia. Several months ago, in Jihad Watch, I read that Cardinal Pell compared the islam with a new communism.
And now this article.
But like always, the problem, is the people prepared to convert muslims. I don´t know. But it´s the unique way to win this war.
Greetings to the catholic brothers and other people in Jihad Watch.
And greetings to Robert Spencer, I am very proud that you are a melkite, I would like that here in Spain we could have that catholic rite.
freewoman,
That is true. The source must be taken into account. What shocks me is that Naseem would think you are close to being violent. That saddens me, but then again, nothing suprises me anymore.
Franze,
How refreshing to see that there are folks who will tell it just like it is and not play this dhimmi game. Thanks also to the greeting, from one Catholic to another also.
Franze,
I have read that the Melkite rite in the RC Church is a very wonderful as well as ancient rite. Are you one also?
bigcatgirl13106, yes, all these rites are spectacular, for this reason many people see the novus ordo, and see us like atheists. But the problem of these churches or the all orthodox church, is that they have beautiful churches, beautiful liturgy and many saints, but they haven´t had social doctrine, making schools, hospitals, and making a decisive political way. In orthodox lands, at first the islam in Turkey and later the communism in Russia, the orthodox were only spectators.
However in Western Europe the social doctrine of the Church, possibly saved Europe from being communist, in my Spain, the first priests were killed in the Civil War( there were 7000) by communists and socialists were the priests who worked with workers, hospitals and schools, they were doing "competence"
Now, sadly for laicism and secularism, religion is seen a thing that it must be only in parishes, churches or cathedrals. They want that we were only into the church. And this is a receipt for the disaster.
Because you have to think about it, what were the strength of Charles Martel, Charlemagne, Saint Louis, The crusaders, Elizabeth the Catholic, Jan Sobieski and so many others, Christ, God.
Greetings and excuse me for the long post.
Naseem:
the next lot of splitting headaches will have been sent by me !!!, be aware of that!
And that is only a harmless beginning...
The duty Naseem says what else do you have anyway...
Jesus Christ, son of God, our Saviour, thats what.
From Cardinal Pell’s “truth-telling address in Florida”
"September 11 was a wake-up call for me personally. I recognised that I had to know more about Islam. . In the aftermath of the attack one thing was perplexing. Many commentators and apparently the governments of the “Coalition of the Willing” were claiming that Islam was essentially peaceful, and that the terrorist attacks were an aberration. On the other hand one or two people I met, who had lived in Pakistan and suffered there, claimed to me that the Koran legitimised the killings of non-Muslims.Although I had possessed a copy of the Koran for 30 years, I decided then to read this book for myself as a first step to adjudicating conflicting claims."
You know, I really do not desire to be disrespectful but personally, I find it outrageous, that a man who has risen to the ranks of Cardinal in the Roman Catholic church had a copy of the Koran sitting on his shelf for 30 years and he had never read the darned thing. Think about it. Islam has been the mortal enemy of Christianity for 1400 years. It's teachings have never changed one bit in 1400 years. It's teaching are set in stone - in the Koran. And yet here is one of the most high ranking clergyman in the Roman Catholic Church and he has never read the Koran which has been sitting on his bookshelf for 30 years?
Again - I do not wish to be disrespectful - but do these people get paid? Are they actually paid a salary that feeds them and clothes them and gives them a warm bed to sleep in at night? Is it implicit in that salary that they are to be shephards as to their flock? That they are to protect their flock against the wolves? And if that is the case - is it not their obligation to study and to understand the behavior of wolves? Especially if that understanding merely entails reading one lousy book which explains the entire nature and psychology of wolves? And yet that high-ranking shephard has had that small book sitting on his bookshelf for 30 years and has never once bothered to open the book?
There is something seriously wrong with this picture.
Correction: never once bothered to open that book until after 9/11...
Franze,
When I do online research on the Eastern Rite Catholic churches, often I find a rich treasure trove of websites, often sponsored by local church communities and also be those of that branch of the RC that wants to share info about these differrent rites. If my memory is correct, these churches are the original Christian churches. I think the Melkite rite goes back to one of the early Christian communites started by Paul. If I am wrong, correct me. Is the Melkite then the oldest of the Eastern Catholic branches?
Thank you for your response.
freewoman
What is astonishing about Islam -
is that - it is the women who hold each other down.
You would think it is primarily coming from the men – but it is the women who are left in their own world, and it is the women who force the younger women to behave in this submissive way towards the men.
Before an Islamic woman gets married, she has to present a medical certificate, to her future mother-in-law, proving her virginity. If it is found that she is not a virgin, then it is her future mother-in-law who will condemn her - usually by labeling her as a whore and disallowing the marriage. [But don’t feel sorry for these poor women, as most Islamic women - will practice either sodomy or other alternatives (like the L word) - to safeguard their virginity until marriage.]
Not so dumb after all –
I suppose seeing the woman’s true power and knowing that it cannot be fully suppressed, in line with the teachings of the Koran, they kill the women – under the ‘honor’ system.
Can you image how many really talented lives - they have cut short with the practice?
'In the medium term future as Islam grows & matures in America...the constitution will need to be amended in parts to cater for the Islam.'
This comment really intrigued me. Islam cannot 'grow and mature' - arent you Muslims always telling us that the koran is the unchangeable word of allah? I cant think of one reason why Western countries should even accept Islam, let alone 'amend' our laws to cater for Islamic superstitions. If you people wish to live under Islamic law, go live in an Islamic country. Simple huh - but wait - what Islamic country could possibly give you the high standard of living and personal freedom taken for granted in the West? None - that's why most Muslims are such leeches and hypocrites, taking whatever they can get from any country stupid enough to let them in but ill-wishing those countries in their hearts. Of course, resentment that no Islamic country can hold a candle to any western country, in any way, plays a big part in this sour grapes attitude.
'This will be to bring about a superior way of life to your childrens. Less spending, greater morals, more prayer, Islamic bookshops, Jilbab shops, halal meat shops ...I mean it's gonna be wonderful...I just cannot wait.'
Haha - quite a few people would have to die before this scenario happened (of course, it never will) - and most of the dead would be Muslims, so be careful what you wish for --- 'superior lifestyle' huh - and what wonderful prosperous countries this 'superior lifestyle' has produced - so wonderful that Muslims are desperate to leave them.
'waering a jilbab gives them freedom from lecterious mens...no longer the stupid low whistles or bum pinching.'
Yes, looking like an ugly bag of moving laundry is SO confidence-inspiring ...
'The mens too after conversion will perhaps want to marry more than one woman...'
What an idiot you are if you really imagine that western women will accept such primitive nonsense.
' ..and instead prepare your childrens for integration into Islam.'
There is no such thing as 'integration' into Islam. The motto of this loathesome belief system is 'convert or die', is it not? My grown-up children loathe Islam and all it stands for - they have had plenty of experience of the 'religion of peace' from the resident Muslim neanderthals of Sydney with their driveby shootings, murders and drug-dealing.
Big Catholic
The melkite church, I think that means in syriac or arabic greek, and they were the believers that accepted the council of Calcedonia, and not refused like copts in 451. In the byzantine empire they were the people who was agree with the emperor position, but they aren´t the oldest. Before St Peter was to Rome and owned the diocese of Rome, he was bishop of Antioch, the first city, where we were called christians.
There is a orthodox church that is growing in US called antioch Church. It´s very interesting.
Greetings
Melkite is a sect of Christianity? l will have to Google to find out more.. sorry but where l grew up if your Fr.Cdn or Irish you were Catholic, if you were English you were not.. Protestant. Still Pakis and muslims in particular cannot stay more than one winter before they head south. l hope to head north again before all goes nuts down here.
The Catholic Church in Victoria is the Archdioces of Melbourne, entirely separate (except for common unity under our Holy Father) from the Archdioces of Sydney.
Big Catholic and Franze,
Melkite means "royalist" of follower of the Emperor, from the semitic malik, "king".