Eurodhimmis: Boldly pursuing appeasement against all odds

I must confess to being deeply troubled at the overall tone that Western diplomacy takes with the mullahs.

I think it's squalid.

And sordid.

And unworthy.

And it makes my stomach turn.

And that's not a figure of speech. I literally get sick to my stomach, and I get headaches when pondering our actions vis-a-vis the mullahs, and their Manhattan Project.

Beads. We can trade them beads!!!!

Typical UN Security Council Sanctions against Iran:

1) Grave concern

2) Engagement in critical dialog

3) Firm, unwavering speeches

4) Forceful, inspired debate.

5) Strong wording used in resolution language.

How about:

1.) If you threaten Israel again, we will wipe your a$$%$es up with the radiation of a couple of nuclear blasts.

2.) If you don't give up your nuke program and your behind-the-scenes attempts to buy nukes on the black market, we will wipe your a$$%$es up with the radiation of another couple of nuclear blasts.

3.) If you don't stop sending Mujahadin into Iraq in order to stir up more dissent and spread more misery, then we will wipe your a$$%$es up with the radiation of still another couple of nuclear blasts.

4.) If you still don't get it, then we will bomb you back into the medieval ages, where the remaining 5,000 persians left alive - apparently want to live, anyway.

Everytime I hear the name Achmenidjhad, Beethoven's Death-March comes into my head.

I was against Bush's march to war in Iraq for practical reasons (not Kerry's reasons) - that it would spread us too thin, result in guerilla/civil war in Iraq, cost us up to 1 TRILLION dollars, and embolden Iran to do exactly what it is now doing. I wrote these concerns to my friends in December 2002, long before Kerry came into the public spotlight. And every single one of my concerns has turned into reality. Notice that I didn't write about WMDs: this is unimportant now, and can't change the past, anyway. But should Bush go against Iran, he has my support this time.

BTW, I would not be too hard on the Germans. My gut tells me that Merkel has made an agreement with Bush to play good-cop, bad-cop with Iran, knowing full well that Iran will not bite on the bait, thus allowing Bush to put his plan through. We will see soon enough if this happens. Just wait. Time is still on our side, at least for now.

I can't possibly see what is negative about those proposals. The European army's and public are simply not ready for an attack and would blaim the US, England and Israel for all deaths caused by the militairy action.

The Iranian regime is too racidal to resist the urge to destroy Israel. Since the attack on Israel is a matter of time it is up to the NATO-members to place themselves in a position from where they can say "hey, we did everything we could to prevent this" and the Iranians will end up in the history books being the cause of massive death in the region while pushing the European public square behind the US.

DrWollfenstein

There's one little problem with your cunning plan: Israel may not want to sit around and act as chum for the Iranian sharks. Moreover, I don't believe Iran attacking Israel would change opinion as much as you claim. The EU has done a masterful job of propaganda, Goebbels quality, and so much of it.

I've mixed readings on Olmert. He seems to smooth. A nonmilitary guy. A lawyer. But, this may be misreading him entirely. He has attacked in Gaza, continued targeted assasinations of Hamas and IJ leaders, and is not threatening Iran . . . in a sensible, low-key way. I note with interest that a trio of former leaders are in agreement on Iran. Bibi is now meeting with Peres with Olmert on a weekly basis, and the word is going out that they will be meeting to discuss Iran. Israel still comes together when one of these existential threats comes along in an acute fashion. They did on Entebbe(the mission could have gone very sour), they did in their wars, they have not on the slow-brewing demographic threat, but who has??? I get a sense that Olmert is being misjudged as a todie for W, or an appeaser because of Kadima's plan of disengagement from the West Bank, but what choice do they have? Build a wall at sensible, defensable borders and get criticized from Joseph Farrah and other supporters for being too weak, but to me this strategy makes sense: you don't have a peace partner, your neighbors are nuts, so disengage as much as possible, wall of the Arabs as much as possible, protect your demographics as much as possible, and use your army to wipe out the enemy when they attack. Now, Israel could have stayed in Gaza longer, but a what cost? There is a great investment in money, morale and fatigue by guarding 8000 Jews among 1000000 Arabs in an area the size of a postage stamp. Withdrawl or occupation both have their downsides. Another hidden benifit about letting the Palis control Gaza and parts of the West Bank is they seem to enjoy killing one another more than killing Israelis.

Moreover, I don't believe Iran attacking Israel would change opinion as much as you claim.
-- Beagle

I know how the averange European government thinks and act. The attack on Israel WILL produce the same reaction like the Nazi attack on Poland. It will make the European leftist ridiculous, since their agents in the media are busy convincing themselves how nice Iran is and that the big and nice Thug-In-Chief is actually constanly misinterpreted. When this is proven false, imagine the uproar it would cause.

DrWollfenstein

Maybe. But proxy attacks by Arab states against Israeli civilians don't cause the reaction you describe. Iran might attack openly, but is more likely to nuke/attack Israel by proxy.

The EU is going to wreck Europe unless Europe wrecks the EU. Not the trade agreements, but the political notion of a European superstate encompassing both sides of the Med, with open borders. Europeans need to get over their colonial guilt trip and realize they're being colonized as we speak.

It is important to remind ourselves that the Iranian head of state emphatically and explicitly threatens to "wipe Israel off the map", presumably with nuclear weapons. This is not a time to discuss response, it is a time to discuss pre-emption as a deterrence.

What do the Iranian mullahs fear? What if the United States disrupts the Day of Judgement by dropping a nuclear message on the head of the Mahdi who is believed to be living at the bottom of the Jamkaran well? How could any Muslim fulfil his obligation of hajj if the grand mosque of Mecca was One with the Atmosphere, compliments of USSTRATCOM? Or worse, since it is believed that the Mahdi will rise in Mecca, what if Mecca doesn't exist?

Eschatology, that's their Achille's heel. Put their lip in that loop, give it a good twist and hang on tightly. They want to play global nuclear brinkmanship? Welcome to the big leagues, pal. A single U.S. Navy boomer could guarantee that the script for their whole Day of Judgement would be utterly derailed. That will be the end of that and nobody gets any virgins, ever. Allah might just pack up his bags and try again with some other planet. Whose fault will that be?

As usual, liberals doing what they do best....

'IDOL' HITS JUMBO 19.2 RATING/30 SHARE IN TUESDAY PERFORMANCE FINALE; TOP OF SEASON... CBS COUNTRY AWARDS 6.8/10... ABC STEPHEN KING MOVIE 5.5 RATING/8 SHARE... NBC '10.5' REARS WITH 5.0/8...
PEOPLE WHO READ ABOUT OR UNDERSTAND THE THREAT OF ISLAM.....VERY FEW...VERY SAD INDEED.

But hasn't the EU already been negotiating for YEARS to get Iran to give up it's nuclear weapon ambitions? What do they have to show for it? Nothing. Zilch. Nada.

So now they make more concessions and still they will have nothing to show for it.

Looking back at history, Europe's reaction to the Nazi invasion of Poland wasn't all it's cracked up to be. Only England and France declared war, and France was rather reluctant to do so until pressured by the UK. Spain, Portugal, Sweeden, Belgium, The Netherlands, Norway, etc. did nothing but remain neutral. The UK and France didn't do anything either, by the way, as Poland was consumed without any attack from them on Germany. Hell, they sat around until the Nazis attacked France and consumed that country too. Remember the so called "Phony War" of 1939-1940? Hopefully, if Iran attacks Israel we'll see a better response from Europe than that!

Irans Beasty Boy, now claims that Irans muke program is complete and anyone attacking Iran will get such a slap. Bush says that the US will protect Israel from any attacker. If Israel attacks Irans nuke facilities, and Iran counter attacks, the US will step in and finish the job.
Hulegu Khan, above is right, shoot an arrow right into the black rock (heart) of Islam.
Dropping a daisy cutter down the Jamkaran well might be a good idea also...Mahdi might actually be down there...wonder how deep that well is, does it reach all the way to Hell? I wonder what else crawls out of that well. Sounds like a horror movie plot, 'something wierd lives in the well, and it's crawling out'. Bush could fix that with one bunker blaster right down the throat. Well, Allah wrote the script, and he knows best. If he wants Bush to seal the gate to Hell, and trap Mahdi forever, I suppose thats just what Bush will do. What a legacy, He destroys the source of terrorism, and closes the portal to Hell at the same time...whatta guy.

"I know how the averange European government thinks and act."

No.
You obiously either don't know or you are denying the truth! As long as not all Israeli "land-robbers" are dead or driven out, as long as Israel isn't wiped from the map and replaced by a disgusting "Palestenian" terrorists' state, the average European government will think and act just like the average "peaceloving" self-rightous Israel- and America-hating dhimmi-moron with his PACE-flag wants them to think and act: blaming Israel and the USA, funding terrorists and having polite (critical) dialoges with Islamofascists.

And even if you WOULD be right:
It is not at all tolerable to risk or even coldly accept, that Israel is attacked by Iran just because this attack would help Europeans to make their leftits ridiculous and bring Europe back to reason and the trans-atlantic alliance. It's inconceivable to accept dead Israelis only because Europe seems to need a lesson about the menace that comes from Iran. If we are not able to recognize this menace without that - that's our fault and our problem. And I do not wish neither accept that this problem will be solved by bombs over Tel Aviv.

Your plan is proving even better than the above article how Eurodhimmis think. And this is no American Euro-bashing! I am European myself - probably you even seem to be my fellow countryman. Unfortunately a typical one.

Beagle, of course you are completely right.

Hell, they sat around until the Nazis attacked France and consumed that country too. Remember the so called "Phony War" of 1939-1940?

And what were the Americans doing then?

From Proud Infidel above:

"...
Remember the so called "Phony War" of 1939-1940? Hopefully, if Iran attacks Israel we'll see a better response from Europe than that! ..."

Do not get your hopes up, Proud. The Euros are so doped up with godlessness, ralativism and multiculturalism they cannot even muster the guts to get rid of the Muslim menace within. In fact they are still dhimmi-ing up to the moes.

The EU will still be sending negotiators to Tehran even after the missiles are dropping in Berlin, London and Paris... if they can get transportation. Are umbrella sales up in Brussels?

And it makes my stomach turn. And that's not a figure of speech.

Don't lose your head, Dan.

Interested said:

>>And what were the Americans doing then?

Gee, the post left out my other comments.

Yes, the US did nothing then, but that was another time, when the US was an isolationist nation. A foolish policy for sure.

But then, this isn't about the US but about Europe's reaction. The Nazis were happening in Europe, and only the UK and France stepped up. I find myself wondering what would have happened if other European nations had joined them instead of remaining neutral.

I think we know the US would react with vigor to an Iranian attack on israel. Europe's reaction? Who knows? But I wouldn't be surprised if their reaction was to condemn the US for it's reaction and demand more negotiations.

NOT EVEN A SHOELACE!..said Ehud Olmert this morning.....In a just society this headline would be a Rally cry for battle!......But in the world we live in the monsters have more rights than the victims....Evil has indeed filled our world but few have even noticed.....'IDOL' HITS JUMBO 19.2 RATING/30 SHARE IN TUESDAY PERFORMANCE FINALE; TOP OF SEASON... CBS COUNTRY AWARDS 6.8/10... ABC STEPHEN KING MOVIE 5.5 RATING/8 SHARE... NBC '10.5' REARS WITH 5.0/8.......The world rallies instead with a faith that calls....rape,murder and pillage....noble and peaceful.....The streets of JERUSALEM are filled with dead children-whose only crime was riding the wrong bus or having lunch with dad.....I dont have a college degree--and i am sure not a polished writer....But i know Evil when i see it...I would say to muslim readers you have the wrong book..mine says..Woe to you who call Evil good and Good Evil..GOD BLESS THE VICTIMS OF ISLAM.

So you think that dropping a nucular weapon on Mecca will fix the problem of "Day of Judgement" that the whacko jihados want to unleash on us? Do you think the Saudis will still sell USA oil if they wipe out Mecca? Hmmmm gee i wonder..

Bed time in Sydney be nice all...

DrWolffenstein writes that an Iranian attack on Israel will cause "the NATO-members to place themselves in a position from where they can say 'hey, we did everything we could to prevent this' and the Iranians will end up in the history books being the cause of massive death in the region while pushing the European public square behind the US."

Sorry, I don't think so. Leaving aside the catastrophe of the millions of Jews who will be killed as sacrificial pawns, the fact is that Europe is very good at scuttling away from taking firm stands, and inventing clever rationalizations. European Leftists will once again blame "U.S. imperialism" for having "provoked" Iran's attack on Israel, just as they blamed "U.S. military interventions overseas" for having caused 9-11 as some kind of semi-justifiable revenge. In fact, they will say that it was a mistake for Israel to ever have been created in the first place. Let me remind you, that what we got from Europe after 9-11 was 95% crocodile tears and only maybe 5% active military support.

I washed my hands of western Europe long before 9-11, with the Balkans crisis in the 1990's. Southeastern Europe was threatened by escalating ethnic violence. Europe couldn't do a damn thing to stop it. So once again, the U.S. Air Force answered the call, flying stealth missions across the Atlantic Ocean, bombing Serbia for 78 days straight till they threw in the towel. For which we got no credit from Europe whatsoever--as soon as the military campaign was over successfully, Europe forgot we ever did it. And to this day they credit diplomacy and the International Criminal Court, not U.S. bombing, for having solved the problem.

For me, that did it. Europe is terminally sick. I would much prefer to wash my hands of western Europe. They and we have been on divergent tracks since the end of the Cold War.

DrWollfenstein writes: "The attack on Israel WILL produce the same reaction like the Nazi attack on Poland....imagine the uproar it would cause."

From what I remember of European history, the Nazi attack on Poland didn't exactly produce an immediate "uproar." First, Britain and France tried diplomacy one more time, and issued one call after another for Germany to cease its invasion of Poland, which Germany, of course, ignored. Then, Britain had trouble mobilizing because they wanted to march jointly with the French but the French were stalling. Then, even after the French declared war, they did basically nothing, sitting in their concrete fortifications in the Maginot Line while Poland was being wiped out by German bombing. Other than a few showpiece naval engagements between the British and German navies (which had no effect on the Polish theater), not much happened. Suggestions that the British Royal Air Force bomb German installations on the Ruhr were rejected. And neither Britain nor France even gave the slightest consideration to invading Germany. This period of relative inactivity was known back then as the "Phony War." It came to a decisive end, after the Germans once again seized the initiative and attacked the West directly, invading first Denmark and then Norway.

If an Iranian attack on Israel produces another "Phony War," in which western European leaders make some inspiring speeches, but keep their armies and air forces at home, while Iran completes the job of wiping out Israel and prepares for their next target, then that's too great a price to pay. For that kind of sacrifice, Europe has to commit to something much bigger than just giving "approval" to U.S. military action while they sit on their butts. Like they have to send THEIR bombers bombing Tehran, and THEIR navies bombarding Tehran from the Arabian Gulf. And that commitment has to come from all major parties in Western Europe, not just the currently governing parties. Because otherwise the ruling party might be kicked out in the next election and be replaced by an antiwar party, just as Zapatero replaced Aznar in Spain. Not again. This time, it must be a REAL commitment by western Europe to wage all-out war against Iran in response to an attack on Israel. Otherwise it's no deal.

"Looking back at history, Europe's reaction to the Nazi invasion of Poland wasn't all it's cracked up to be."

Why do Americans keep harping on the theme of European reluctance to start a shooting war in 1938-39? The Americans allowed the Germans to sink one of their destroyers and seriously damage another, without declaring war. If Hitler hadn't obliged him, Rooseveldt would have had the greatest difficulty in getting the people to support a declaration of war on Germany in 1941/2, despite the ir threatened interdiction of the north Atlantic shipping lanes.

>>Why do Americans keep harping on the theme of European reluctance to start a shooting war in 1938-39? The Americans allowed the Germans to sink one of their destroyers and seriously damage another, without declaring war.

A little historical perspective. Many in the US opposed at the time helping the British out and when the destroyers were attacked the reaction of many was that we shouldn't have been sticking our nose into Europe's war. There was no outcry in favor of war. And that was wrong too. We should have been more pro-active in helping Europe. It was a mistake not to.

We keep harping on it because Europe seems learned nothing from it's history if the current appeasement efforts are any indication. We see that same desperate bending over backwards to avoid confronting evil.

People in the UK have been suspicious of the line: "appeasement - never again" since Anthony Eden, a neurotic man of poor judgemnet, wrongly identified Nasser as some kind of Hitler figure and pursued an uncompromising policy of military intervention during the Suez crisis of 1956. He had actually had some involvemnt in pre-war diplomacy and was hyper-sensitive about not repeating the mistakes of 1938. The result was military success but diplomatic disaster and humiliation and a forced withdrawal, by the UK.

Bonncaruso says:

"My gut tells me that Merkel has made an agreement with Bush to play good-cop, bad-cop with Iran, knowing full well that Iran will not bite on the bait, thus allowing Bush to put his plan through."

My instincts are with you on this one. Bush is polishing his six-shooters while the EU is giving Amahdinnerjacket a nice, warm tongue-bath.

Sorry Dan

That image probably will really make your stomach turn.

I just wish we could get on with the smackdown, and Europe get it's groove back and get rid of the muslims. I would love a castle tour of all of Europe before I get too old to enjoy it.

Stop all appeasements, give the dinosaur cult the boot or bomb, so we can get back to our normal lives again. I'm not getting any younger!!!

Q: "And what were the Americans doing then?" re the so called phony war ('39-'40)

I think we were digesting the staggering implications of actions taken by cowardice incarnate in Britain (Neville Chamberlain), France (Daladier) and that strange bird (Hitler -- clearly not a coward, but what to make of him... who could tell...) and wondering which asshole would come out on top... Thanks for bringing up this all important question, Interested. You can always be counted on to get to the nub of the matter!

On a more serious note, I would also mention that Americans were desperately hoping against hope that Europe wouldn't, yet once again, plunge us peace loving prosperous Yanks into another one of your insane slaughterfests where millions of our beloved sons (yet once again) would have their lives utterly disrupted and destroyed -- and trillions upon trillions of dollars sucked out of our treasury to prop up and defend problem riddled Europe. Isn't it amazing how things haven't changed all that much?!?

Except now, despite our efforts to have a different outcome by getting out in front of world events in the hopes of avoiding another world conflagration, we have the pleasure of spending our treasury and dying in the thousands in far off lands to defend Western freedoms and democracy while foul mouthed Europeans (There IS such a thing as a "EUROPEAN", my glib friend... look in the mirror...) get to sit on the side lines and snipe or appease in ways their forefathers only dreamed about... What a treat for us!

Bash your allies why don't you? I'm sick and tired of the ignorance and arrogance of American posters here when they generalise about Europe.

And no, there is no such thing as a "European". I am most certainly not one.

And, IMHO, it is not realistic to infer that the US, France, Britain, and Germany have agreed to play some kind of game of good cop/ bad cop. After the treachery shown by France and Germany against America in recent years -- no American Administration would be willing to take the point on a matter such as Iran now. That's tragic for the world. But it's the reward Europe gets for her intransigence, villainy, weakness, and cowardice. Taken in toto, Europe's trajectory is truly ominous.

I would argue that Europe's stance (in conjunction with Russian maneuvering, China's emergence, and the UN's corruption and incompetence under El Baradei) made Iranian nukes an inevitability. America is calculating that Europe and Russia will be far more menaced by such nukes that we will be, given their proximity, and their exploding muslim hoards.

Rather than putting up with all the guff, betrayals, and poison which Europe would surely be spewing at us if we were in the lead -- I believe the administration has decided to let Europe illustrate exactly what her "soft power" is capable of. After all, though we will surely be burdened by Europe's failure (it's always so...), Europe will be forced to make decisions about her very survival in the coming times. She will rise to the challenge or fall this time on her own.

The national character of France (and her evil siamese twin of modern day Germany) is coming out in spades in this cowardly appeasement debacle with Iran. Historically, as referenced above, Britain and France have a long history of appeasement towards all forms of fascism -- nationalism, racism, Marxism, and religious fascism of all stripes --Only Great Britain from among the three has shown the ability and character to alter this ugly stance and fight for right. Germany is a toothless husk of a nation after WW2 -- and appropriately -- who ever would want to see her brand of vile fascism again ? A toothless old wolf -- France -- France is so sophisticated and couth -- so urbane -- we know what to expect from her.

Somewhere above, someone makes reference to "European armies" -- I have to laugh. Are they talking about the Mujahadeen? The Americans in Ramstein? The unemployed? Roving bands of disaffected youth? What "armies"?

"I am most certainly not one."

You most certainly ARE one.

Britain [and France] have a long history of appeasement towards all forms of fascism -- nationalism, racism, Marxism, and religious fascism of all stripes

What nonsense. Britain has never gone in for Marxism or Fascism. We don't do that stuff. And as for racism, this country was the prime mover in abolishing slavery.

As for WW2, Britain (and the Commonwealth) stood alone against Hitler between the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the German invasion of the Soviet Union; in Asia, China had been fighting Japan since 1937, with a history of skirmishes and larger clashes going back much farther.

Still, "we" are all the same, aren't we?

And no, I'm not "European", I'm English.

"As for WW2, Britain (and the Commonwealth) stood alone against Hitler between the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the German invasion of the Soviet Union; in Asia, China had been fighting Japan since 1937, with a history of skirmishes and larger clashes going back much farther."

And that's the Great Britain that I love. The Brits who fought -- those are the kinds of Brits I'd call "allies". I just wonder how many of those are still around. I'm an avid reader of British media -- a watcher and checker out of all kinds of British websites. Why? Because for YEARS I have been worried about how far you seem to have drifted away from us. It's easier to find nuggets of gold lying on the ground than to find Britons who support the idea of waging war to fight for the West, or allying with America. If you were honest about it, you'd admit it's true. It's hardly a generalization, my friend when every megaphone in academia, nearly every politician (with the exception of Mr. Blair, the benighted lone standout) every British Celebrity and nearly every British Journalist has gone over to the dark side. I travel to the UK every couple years or so... And while I always find the people warm and enjoyable -- I am regularly STUNNED by the crap that is spewed about America.

As for "Bash your allies why don't you? " Are you including France? Germany? Sweden? Spain? You mean those"allies"? What's wrong with bashing "allies" like that -- a little bashing is in order -- don't you think? As for Britain -- I know you have it in you to turn the state of affairs around -- but I don't see much sign of it. Sorry. I'm waiting. I want to see it. But I just don't.

It's hardly a generalization, my friend when every megaphone in academia, nearly every politician (with the exception of Mr. Blair, the benighted lone standout) every British Celebrity and nearly every British Journalist has gone over to the dark side.

This is wildly hyperbolic. Don't you read The Telegraph? There is no US national daily newspaper like it. Or even the Mail or the Sun, if you want to know what most people think over here.

The BBC and The Guardian are no more representative of the British people than Michael Moore or the New York Times are representative of Americans.

UK posters who continually made sweeping anti-American generalisations would probably not last long at this site. Perhaps you can see why some of us get annoyed.

"Britain has never gone in for Marxism or Fascism."

Um -- what did I just point out about ol' Neville, Interested, old buddy, old pal? Or was the British Government playing "good cop/bad cop" with Hitler when they signed away the Sudetanland? How about today, while you're working so assiduously to reward Iran for going nuclear -- What's that called???

If you want to periodically lob your cheap little slurs such as the one above which precipitated my post by implying that America just sat lazily and irresponsibly back on her hands during the "phony war", if you want to revise your own nation's history and pretend that Britain always stood tall against Hitler, or if you want to conveniently sidestep Britain's complicity in his rise to power -- you're engaging in vintage European style America-bashing fantasist revisionism. It was a cheap shot, as are many of your delicious little quips. It's also EXACTLY the context in which I accuse you of being "European" -- at least in spirit.

Talk about nonsense!

And talk about "bashing allies" -- I learned everything I ever knew about "bashing allies" from the endless derogation and insults which flow like a torrent from Britain and Europe against America. It's been happening for decades.

Now -- Only now when ONE American confronts your ugly disease --now that ONE American stands up and says "SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS" when you slander us and smear us and insert your disgusting little distortions -- somehow it's out - of - bounds?

THAT'S truly nonsense.

No, Britain has not gone in for Fascism or Marxism. We have never had those things here. That is what I meant.Chamberlain was wrong to appease Hitler, just as Carter was wrong to appease Iran. But my country more than made up for it.

Jsla, will you stop bashing one of your main allies? You just sound mean spirited and rather pathetic.

Now you're getting hysterical. Go and have a lie down.

Sorry interested, Jsla is spot on. It would appear that it is you who is getting a little hysterical. The anti-americanism pouring out of the UK and Europe is palpable. I am not saying you are anti american just that your compatriots are. From where I am sitting the UK is fast sliding down hill towards dhimmitude.

On another topic whats your opinion about the big rise in BNP support at the council elections (I told you it would happen) and the co-ordinated attempts by the main stream press to still slander and debase not only the party but the large numbers of people who voted for them.

You seem to be a staunch Tory, but dont you think your chosen party has let not only you down but the country. Even today the Tories can not name the enemy, even when the Jihad continues to spiral out of control and Iran threatens to go nuclear.

So on the one hand tonight we have an American citizen berating we British, or specifically we English, for not stopping Hitler in his tracks in 1933 and on the other hand a US resident, who may or not be a citizen agreeing with this yet also berating us for not supporting the current incarnation of neo nazis in the shape of the BNP.

Might I remind you gentlemen that over 100 British servicemen and women have been killed in Iraq so far and men of my husband's old regiment are in action in Afghanistan as we speak.
We are allies and therefore united we stand, divided we fall.

Granny W - spot on, though I think your use of the word "gentlemen" is misplaced.

There you go with the BNP being nazis agin and I have yet to see any proof of this. The Jewish councillors within the BNP doesnt strike you as a bit odd for a so called Nazi party?

Gosh, is that the time?

The Jewish councillor (just the one I believe, and about 3 Sikhs) within the BNP presumably believe that they can ride the tiger.
I doubt that.
And as for their Nazi views I suggest that you visit certain pubs near certain football grounds and actually listen .
Now if you will excuse he, I have work in the morning.
Good night.

Now now interested no need to get rude.

Granny I in no way would want to disparage the role the British Military is playing in the ME and Afghanistan. You are right we are allies and united we stand divided we fall.

My invective wasn't aimed at them but the yellow multicultural snakes that appear to have their hands on the reigns of power both in the government and in opposition.

Show me one scrap of evidence that the Tory party is addressing the nature of Islam and the jihadic take over of Britain and I will gladly switch allegiance.

From what I see you actually have Tory councilors defecting to the BNP.

http://xrl.us/mqbz

I stand by my premise that we are in a world war, the current mainstream political parties and media apparatus of the UK are afraid to admit this and the only way to change this dangerous situation for the UK is for the nationalists to gain in popularity. Something that already appears to be happening and in my honest opinion may not be a moment to soon.

I also think they have an Albanian now as well, like I say the charges of Nazism seem a bit dubious to say the least.

And I am certainly not going to make political decisions based oh hearsay about banter in pubs close to football grounds.

You have a good night Granny and Interested, sleep well.

"So on the one hand tonight we have an American citizen berating we British, or specifically we English, for not stopping Hitler in his tracks in 1933 ..."

Hardly - If you must distort my words in order to maintain your position, so be it. I was confronting a little nugget of undeniable anti-Americanism in Interested's post. It's hardly the first time such a thing has happened here. I will point out the hypocrisy and inaccuracy of such posts when I encounter them.

America bashing seems to have become the one of the world's favorite pasttime in recent decades -- and it happens in degrees and sometimes quite subtly. As an ally, I am deeply disturbed to see this trend continuing to escalate in the world, and in quarters where I would never expect to see it such as here, and from posters like Interested. Yet there it is. And, like I said above, it's not the first time.

For decades there has been no consequence for this reflexive America bashing and bigotry -- and God knows there has been a vocal elite of willing, self-loathing American abettors to lend comfort and aid to this disease. But Britons, French, Germans, Canadians, or whomever must learn that this state of affairs has consequences -- For too long, Americans have sat by, sometimes bemused, sometimes disturbed, too often quiet.

For me, part of the fight now entails pointing out, refuting, and challenging robustly this anti-Americanism when I see it. Above, Interested subtly attempts to imply something untoward about the fact that America wasn't by Britain's side during 1939-1940 -- but the most glancing familiarity with the facts informs us that Britain herself wasn't necessarily by Britain's side during this leadup to the Great conflagration of WW2. Since this is a FACT -- I find the notion that somehow implying that America should be chastised or criticized for inactivity completely beyond the pale -- a perfect example of knee-jerk bigotry.

The prostitution of reality by someone who, one might presume, would know the facts more thoroughly is simply symptomatic to me of the ease with which many seem to lapse into this corrosive anti-Americanism. And, by the way, the bald assertion that I am somehow arrogant or ignorant because I despise such rank disrespect is worthy of ridicule.

Finally, those brave British Soldiers are not forgotten by me. And such things are well worth mentioning, and often. While we post at sites such as this -- we must all acknowledge such a privilege only exists because men (and women) have fought for that and all the other privileges we enjoy in the Free West -- I suggest we owe them far better than to be lobbing insults at each other.

Nevertheless -- the post that started it all rather subtle, but odious. Perhaps it's just highly unusual for you to hear an "arrogant" and "ignorant" American responding to such a slur. Get used to it.

@Steven L. : You have read what DrWolffenstein wrote about ice coldly feeding much of Israel ( or perhaps all of Israel) to the Iranian crocodile just for getting some political advantage for Europe out of this ( and you have perfectly answered to his vicious "plan") .... have you also recognized WHAT DrWolffenstein is? I am German. I know what he is.

Don't feed the troll and even more important: don't feed the nazis. They are best friends to islamofascists.

Jsla, again you are talking nonsense.

I originally asked the question because an American had asked what we were doing in 1939 to 1940. Given that Britain stood alone against Hitler, and given that the question came from an American - and at this time your country was doing nothing whatsoever to oppose Hitler - I thought this poster had a bit of a cheek. That's all. A bit of a cheek, and needed to be reminded of the obvious.

My intention was not to slur all Americans. Tarring people with the same brush is your game, Jsla, not mine. I am in fact very pro-American. If you click on my name and visit the New English Review website, you will see a fine example of Anglo-American co-operation, harmony and wit.

You're obviously not on my wavelength. My wavelength is a good place to be, but not everyone is privileged to be on it.

Just more self-justifying revisionism, Interested. A reading of Proud Infidel's post shows him making links between Euroappeasement in 30s and Euroappeasement in the 00s and asking why we would expect events to turn out any differently. Somehow that pissed you off and strikes you as "cheeky" so you decide to post a little turd in response and take a snide swipe at the USA. The wit of it eludes me, but I'm sure you have a superior, charming, and plucky little explanation for that too.

Jsla, get over yourself. I am not anti-American at all. I am, however, patriotic. For a time, Britain stood alone against Nazism, and I'm proud of that. I get angry when people criticise my country unjustly, and lump us in, if you must know, with the bloody French. (No doubt I'll now get some French posters on my case.)

I love my country, and for what it's worth, I love America and I'm glad - and grateful - that you're on our side. Our role in WW2, like our role in abolishing slavery is something my country is proud of.

Now for God's sake, stop carping. OK, you don't like my style or my sense of humour. You are not alone, though I feel you are missing out. Do try that website by the way.

Don't feed the troll and even more important: don't feed the nazis. They are best friends to Islamofascists.

Posted by: Eisvogel at May 24, 2006 07:38 PM

mmmmm Lets see your statement implies that the BNP by virtue of the fact that they are supposedly neo Nazis (according to Granny and interested) must support Islamofascism.

I challenge you to produce one scrap of evidence that supports your premise. You will not be able to and your statement will be shown to be nothing more than leftwing/liberal group think which permeates European politics. And is often behind the anti-Americanism that Jsla is commenting about.

My understanding is that Tory supporters have got a case of sour grapes because the BNP has taken a big chunk out of their support base, this is because they are now the only real rightwing conservative party in the UK.

Good luck to them is what I say.

I am not Britsh, km. And I am not at all leftwing. But I know a little about BNP. They are rightwing but they are surely not neonazi (if they are supposed to be so , I think that is an error) You can't compare Brithish rightwing to German rightwing. Ours is antisemitic and America-hating ( Britain-hating as well) and supporting Muslims OUTSIDE Germany while hating muslims ( as well as every not European-looking people) INSIDE Germany. They are not antiislamic, they are simply racist. And most they hate the US ( and our German democracy) and they often attend rallies together with "peaceloving" leftwing idiots and Muslim immigrants.

I do not at all disagree to what you are writing here. But I disagree totally to the Israel-hating right-wing, that exists ( at a very small number indeed) in Germany. Those to whom I oppose in my coutry are the same to whom BNP opposes in Britain.

Hoping that missiles dropping on Israeli cities will "help" Europe against the evil leftists inside and the islamists... is disgusting in my opinion. And typical.

The scrap of evidence, you wanted: German rightwing Horst Mahler was formerly in the 1970s extrem Left-wing. Now he is a supporter of Achmedinejad. He was taken away his passport recently to avoid his attedening the Iranian Holocaust-denyers' conference.

I am not at all your enemy, km. I'm on the same side you are. German neonazis are not.

Dr. Wolffenstein:

It is unlikely that Europe will react to Iranian attacks on Israel for the cimple reason that Israel is not in Europe.

Europe has done precious little about the millions being massacred in Sudan and has not been especially cooperative with the United States in condemning the Sudanese government. the situation in Sudan has not noticeably changed European attitudes on Islam's global warfare. Israel is not that much closer to Europe thatn Sudan. remember the Yugoslavian war in the 1990s? I doubt Europe does.

I therefore sincerely doubt that attacks on Israel will provoke outrage in Europe. And Islam's global jihad will dig in deeper worldwide as Iran continues revisiting 1938.

Basket of incentives?

Why don’t they just get Iran a fruit basket? It’s cheaper and it is just as likely to work.

@pythagoras: Israel is not much closer to Europe than Sudan. Correct. But while European attitude towards Sudan is simply halfhearted and indifferent, European attitude towards Israel is - as a result of 30 years of Eurabian brain-washing and as an evil heritage of Jew-hating tradition in Europe - predominantly suspicious and hostile.

So: you are completely right. Bombs dropping on Tel Aviv would encourage Europeans to nothing else than to urge Israel to give the "poor and oppressed Palestenians" whatever they demand for. Such missiles would certaily not make Europe a better ally to the USA. It's just ridiculous to think so. (They would only make DrWolffenstein happy.)

I may have misunderstood you then Eisvogel, I apologize sincerily.

I have an ongoing debate with Interested and Granny (one which I enjoy, but I think they dont) in that they seem to think that the BNP is like the real neo Nazi's you are speaking about in Germany.

I heard the other day that German neo Nazis are planning to march in support of Ahmindajad when Iran plays Angola, this is very sad.

Again no offence intended.

Eisvogel,

I agree with you about Europes response to Israel being attacked. The rot has set in way too deep.

One word against oversimplification: the countries of the EU mainly responsible for the dhimmitude situation and political abominations we are looking at are Belgium, the Netherlands, France, Germany, Switzerland, and Spain. These countries deserve all the anger seen here and more. The political conduct of these countries has generally been deplorable (with the notable exception of the newly-elected Angela Merkel, who I respect).

It is possible that eastern European countries such as Poland and Hungary offer a very strong contrast from western European countries. And by the way their economies are at the present time far more dynamic than western Europe's. Possibly eastern Europe will be able to take the lead of the EU away from the Franco-German axis and (we hope) shine a little light in what is a bleak scenario indeed.

It was John Sobieski, a Pole, who saved Vienna from the Muslim invaders in 1683. Will history repeat itself??

All is not lost. Stay tuned.

For me, that did it. Europe is terminally sick. I would much prefer to wash my hands of western Europe. They and we have been on divergent tracks since the end of the Cold War.

Posted by: Steven L. at May 24, 2006 12:37 PM

I think the tracks diverged long before the end of the Cold War, but nobody noticed until after the Wall fell. While our military forces protected Europe from the USSR and communism, our European "allies" were busy forging clandestine alliances with the sleazy Arabs, setting the cornerstone for present-day Eurabia.

It really hurts to be stabbed in the back, thrown to the ground, and then kicked in the face by your own kith and kin. That's what the "leaders" of Europe did when they aligned with the Arab world in a futile attempt to create an entity more powerful than the United States. Not only did they spit in America's face, they sold out their own countries to the most treacherous totalitarians on earth.

Special service for our Dhimmi friends in Teutonia:
Hugh Fitzgerlad's classic La Douce France, in German

Douce France, eine treffende scharfsinnige Betrachtung unserer Freunde im Lande Lafayettes:
Stell Dir vor Du wärest ein verwöhntes Mitglied der französischen Elite. Ein Kind macht gerade die khâgne, und peilt die rue d’Ulm an. Ein anderes ist derzeit ein politechnicien. Du geniesst ein gutes Auskommen und bist verbeamtet. Du und Deine Gattin, ihr seid Journalisten oder Schriftsteller oder einer aus den grossen Heeresscharen die “recherches” ausführen, und das Leben ist gut, kommod, wie es sein sollte. Ja nun, Du bemerkst zunehmend mehr Muslime um Dich herum wo Du immer umher gehst, nicht länger auf den banlieues, aber im Zentrum von Paris, oder Toulouse, oder Lyon. Und weist Du noch wie unbehaglich Dir zumute wahr, vor vier Jahren als Du zufällig über die Cannebière in Marseille spazieren gingst. Du hast sogleich einen Entschluss gefasst damals, Du würdest nie dorthin zurückkehren.
Und Du hast Freunde die im Süden wohnen. Und sie erzählen Dir, dass die beurs – einige nennen sie die maghrébins – allen das Leben zur Hölle machen. Sie greifen französische Kinder auf dem Schulweg an. Sie zerstören mutwillig Personenwagen. Sie bedrohen, und noch mehr viel mehr als zu bedrohen sie jeden der noch immer so töricht ist mit einer Kippa oder einem Kreuz herauszugehen. Ganze Bezirke von Städten im Süden wie auch im Norden und Osten und Westen, wurden zu Tabuzonen für nicht–Muslime. In den Schulen ist den Lehrern die Autorität abhanden gekommen. Sie können sogar die Spezialgebiete des Zweiten Weltkrieges, der Resitance und der Ermordung der Juden nicht behandeln, wie vom Staat verordnet; mit Recht befürchten sie die gewalttätige Reaktion der mohammedanischen Schüler.
Und während die Schulen für nicht–muslimische Schüler und Lehrkräfte zunehmend gefährlich werden, während mehr Zeit und Ressourcen der Disziplin statt dem Lernen gewidmet werden, derweil rechnen sich im stillen französische Eltern und werdende Eltern, die künftig zu erwartenden Kosten ihrer Kinderplanung aus und schlagen auf ihre Budgets jetzt den Barwert der wie sie feststellen müssen, erforderlichen Hinzurechnung: das Schulgeld für Privatschulen. Und das wiederum bedeutet, dass diese französischen Menschen kleinere Familien planen werden. Und sie werden in ihre Rechnung den wachsenden Aufwand einbeziehen müssen diese französischen Steuerzahler, die Auslagen die sie leisten werden müssen für das steigende Gebilde der Sicherheit, für die Wächter in den Schulen, die Aufpasser in den U-Bahn Stationen und métros und Flughäfen und für das Bewachungspersonal auf Regierungsämtern, überall, den Aufwand zur Vorbeugung gegen die Vandalisierung der Grabsteine, zum Schutz der Synagogen und der Kirchen, die Umtriebe für all die Telefon-Abhörungen und die Agenten in den Moscheen, und Subventionen für Rechtsanwälte und Richter für die Anhörung von Anklagen gegen Muslime, und die Kosten zur Überwachung von Da’wa in den Strafanstalten (über 50% Muslime).
Doch den Muslimen sind die Aufwendungen des französischen Staates gleichgültig. Frankreich ist Teil der Welt und die gehört doch Allah und seinen Gläubigen. Diese Doktrin ist seit 1400 Jahren unveränderlich geblieben. Imam Bouziane, derjenige den sie seit Jahren versuchen auszuschaffen, hat 16 Kinder von zwei Ehegattinnen, alle auf Kosten des französischen Staates lebend; ein charakteristischer muslimischer Mann. Mit der Zeit, steigt die Differenz zwischen der durchschnittlichen Familiengrösse von Muslimen und nicht-Muslimen stetig. Und mit der Zeit, zerfällt das Bildungswesen. Eben jetzt kannst Du es vielleicht nicht sehen. Deine Kinder besuchen die besten Schulen, gefolgt durch die besten lyceés. Du machst Ferien in der Normandie oder Bretagne, oder der Ile de Ré. Und Du benützt die metro nicht oft genug, oder Du gehst durch die richtigen Quartiere, oder arbeitest in den richtigen Fabriken oder Büros um zu verstehen was zehnlige von Millionen Deiner französischen Landsleute ertragen müssen. Du, im Moment, bist noch immer immun, bist immer noch mit Absicht unwissend. Du hast die letzten Jahrzehnte damit verbracht über die islamische Welt von Eric Rouleau zu lernen und von seinen Nachahmern (nachdem sie Peroncel-Hugoz, den einen Journalisten der die Wahrheit berichtete zum Schweigen brachten) in Le Monde. Du bist zutiefst bewandert in der ständig berichteten, endlos ausufernden Niederträchtigkeit des mächtigen Imperiums Israels. Dir ist bekannt was uns allen eingepfercht wurde: dass die arabischen Muslime vernünftige Menschen sind, mit klar berechtigten Beschwerden, so mässige und eingeschränkte Beschwerden, das Recht gebietet, dass sie zufrieden gestellt werden. Alle sind sich bezüglich der „Lösung“ einig. Sie wird die „Zwei Staaten Lösung“ genannt, und gewiss ist sie eine „Lösung“ den sonst, freilich würde sie nicht als eine „Lösung„ bezeichnet.
Und alles sieht aus wie früher: die Lindenbäume, der Fluss, die Brücken, die étalage in der boulangerie im Wohnviertel. Douce France, cher pays de mon enfance. Am Ende des Schultages versammeln sich chic-feine Mütter wie auch schon, in den Ortschaften oder den Kleinstädten vor dem Schulgebäude – vor jener oder der anderen Ecole Jules Ferry – und warten darauf ihre Kinder abzuholen. Da kommen die aller kleinsten aus Maternelle, da laufen sie – schau wie niedlich sie sind. Und da ist die CE1 Gruppe, mit den riesigen cartables auf ihren kleinen Rücken. Lauf, lauf lauf zu Mammi. Hoppla. Und dann Jahre des lernen, lernen, lernen, gekennzeichnet durch immer grössere cahiers -- "cahier" und "cartable" diese Worte erfassen das französische DNA besser als Piaf oder gauloises, nicht wahr? Und nun lasst uns die Bücher lesen und die Lehrfächer studieren die ja so vollständig und präzise vom Bildungsministerium festgelegt sind. Und nun sind wir bereits am Schlussexamen am letzten Jahr, wir bereiten uns auf das Bac vor, mit Kopien von blau markierten BALISES, Handbücher zu Les Châtiments und La Peau de Chagrin. Und sieh Mal die Ergebnisse werden in der Zeitung gebracht: Claire-Alix erhielt eine mention très bien. Fantastisch. Alles ist perfekt, alles wird ewig so bleiben, ganze Länder können sich gar nicht ändern. Es geht gar nicht.

Aber es ändert sich doch, es löst sich auf, leise, langsam – lasst uns bloss nicht zu nahe hingucken, wir dürfen dem nicht zuviel Beachtung schenken - die Strassen, die Schulen, die Spitäler, das Vermögen die Wahrheit über Dinge auszusprechen, über das Leben wie es gelebt wird, la vita vissuta wie sie im Nachbarland zu sagen pflegen. Dominique de Villepin wusste schon immer dass man sich keine Sorgen machen musste; er wurde schlussendlich in Salé, in der Nähe von Rabat geboren, er verbrachte sogar einige Jahre seiner frühen Kindheit dort; natürlich kennt er seine Araber, seine Muslime. Und Eric Rouleau sicherlich, Jahrzehnte lang alteingesessener Experte im Le Monde für den Mittleren Osten (so sachkundig war er, dass er die Lehren des Koran und der Sunna nie auch nur zu erwähnen brauchte), gewiss wusste er alles nicht doch? Und diese französischen Übersetzungen von Edward Said die mit solcher Leidenschaft die Islamophobie anprangerten, und die böswilligen Zerrbilder mit der der blinde und verrottete Westen schon seit jeher, die arabisch mohammedanische Welt lächerlich machte. Ach, wir waren so schrecklich zu den Arabern, wir Kolonialisten, wir Franzosen, wir Abendländer. Und dann gibt es noch diese unendliche Gemeinheit Israels, dieser immerwährende kolonialistische Wundherd. Natürlich haben sie jedes Recht, die Muslime um hier her zu kommen, nach Frankreich. Einst gingen wir zu ihren Ländern, nun kommen sie zu uns. Und sie haben jedes Recht uns zu hassen, oder?
Und jetzt sind wir entschlossen nicht mehr zu verstehen, und alle Bänder der Sympathie mit Israel abzuschneiden, -- und wieso hegten wir überhaupt jegliche Sympathie zu ihnen eigentlich, wie einige unserer Eltern damals in 1948 oder 1956 oder 1967? Konnten sie nicht sehen was das „Palestinensische Volk durchmachen musste? Hanan, Yassir, Said, Saeb, Aziz, Walid, Rashid, Mohammed – Du hast unsere Herzen und unsere Überzeugungen erobert. Nimm uns, mach mit uns was Du willst.

Keiner sagt was sich abspielt oder welche Überlegungen wir anstellen sollten darüber nachzudenken was zu tun wäre damit wir uns retten können. Niemand mit jeglichem Anstand. Und was immer Le Pen und Megret sagen, wir müssen das Gegenteil bewähren (ausser, natürlich wenn sie ihre Feindlichkeit gegenüber „den Juden“ zum Ausdruck bringen). Mach nicht darauf Aufmerksam, denk nicht daran. Freie Gedanken mögen in der Theorie recht sein, aber wahrhaftig – überleg doch die Konsequenzen. Wage nicht ausserhalb des Rahmens zu denken, der läuft über mit idées reçues. Défense de penser au dehors du box.

Nein. Alles wird in Ordnung sein, während Du entlang der Avenue Paule-Anne flanierst. Diese Moslems werden uns nie gewachsen sein. Sie Mal, schau doch wie diese legionnaires marschieren à pas lent, die Champs-Elysées herab, denk doch an die Reihe der Wüsten Siege. In unseren Köpfen ist 1930 und da gleich ist die Exposition coloniale. Erinnerst Du dich, tu t’en souviens, das Gemälde von le Douanier Rousseau, oder? Mit dem Araber mit dem Burnus der neben dem farbigen Senegalesen steht? Stimmt doch, ich hab doch recht? Frankreich wird immer Frankreich bleiben. Nichts wird sich ändern.
An einem gewissen Punkt, und trotz allem was Dich davon abhält nicht das zu sehen was Dich ins Gesicht anstarrt, realisierst Du, dass etwas furchtbar schief gelaufen ist mit Deinem Land und, dass Du und Deine Kinder Gefahr laufen das Land zu verlieren, bis zum letzten Dorf und Haus, qui m’est une province et beaucoup davantage. Und Du weisst nicht was zu tun oder wie dieses Gefühl anderen zu übermitteln oder denen den Du Deine geheimen Ängste anvertraust, oder was zu tun wäre. Es ist so konfus und so ärgerlich. Du kannst nicht für Le Pen wählen. Du kannst „Cowboy“ Bush nicht befürworten oder diese unmöglichen Amerikaner. Du kannst Dich nirgends hinwenden.

Und dann erfährst Du was Jacques Chirac – der bereits ein muslimisches Enkelkind hat -- und Dominique de Villepin, nicht möchten, dass Du erfährst. Denn falls Du es solltest, könntest Du sehr aufgebracht werden. Du entdeckst, dass 1 von jeden 3 Babys die in Frankreich heute geboren werden, ein Moslem Baby ist. Und das bedeutet, dass in 20 Jahren, einer von jeden drei 20-jährigen ein muslimischer zwanzig-jähriger sein wird. Und das heisst, dass zwanzig Jahre später danach, mit den heutigen Geburtsraten, Frankreich eine muslimische Mehrheit haben wird. Wo werden wir die Statuen aus Marly-le-roi verstecken? Und die Venus de Milo? Und was soll aus diesen Bildern von lebendigem Leben – all diese Portraits im Louvre, und dem Grand Palais, und dem Musée Guimet dort in der Linden-gesäumten Aix, und überall in dem mit Kunst gefüllten kunstvollen Frankreich, mère des arts, des armes, et des loix – welche ausgesprochen verboten sind gemäss den unveränderlichen Beschränkungen des Korans. Sollen sie zur Verwahrung verschickt werden zu diesen Amerikanern in Übersee? Bis dann werden die meisten Juden Frankreich bereits verlassen haben, über die Meere für ihr eigenes Wohl, nach Israel oder ins englischsprachige Kanada (Sie machten sich Sorgen über die moslemische Bevölkerung von Quebec, weisst Du, welcher gestattetet wurde heranzuwachsen, unter der Politik der Provinz von Quebec die frankophonen Einwanderer zu fördern, und Nord Afrikaner vorzuziehen anstelle von potentiellen Einwanderern aus Italien, Griechenland, Spanien), und vor allem nach Amerika. Welch Glück die Amerikaner hatten. Keine Legate mehr für Frankreich von den ihresgleichen der Rothschilds oder der Nissim Camondos. Keine Spenden eines anderen Pierre Lévys. Geniesse die kufische Kalligraphie; einige finden unendliche Faszination daran.

Für den Moment erlaubst Du Dir die Vorstellung, es wird schon wieder werden. All diese Muslime werden höchstwahrscheinlich einfach konvertieren. Ich meine doch, das tun sie, nicht wahr, recht leicht, so sagt man mir. Natürlich, wieso habe ich nicht gleich daran gedacht, genau so wird es sein. Die Lage immer im richtigen Moment gerettet. Genau wie im Krieg. Keine Sorgen zu machen, Gar keine.
Anmerkung
Dieser Artikel wurde 2004 erstmals veröffentlicht.

Hugo --

Thank you.

It reads beautifully. I'm glad you left Du Bellay and other bits in the original for couleur locale purposes. And while I don't think German readers are any more likely than other non-Americans to detect "Pollyanna" on the "Avenue Paule-Anne," and there are other, similar examples, footnotes in such a piece would have jarred and should be, as they have been, strengst verboten.

Robert Spencer recently said he would never give up on Europe so long as there is a chance of saving its free institutions. Who could reasonably disagree with that?

Whatever flaws Europe may show now, she has huge virtues as well, and an often great history that lurks just beneath the surface. I include France, Germany and Holland in this, and do so despite agreeing with Bawer's criticisms of many Western European attitudes. European culture is central to Western culture. What's more, Europe has tremendous cultural and spiritual potential. And we Americans, while we do not deserve most of the anti-Americanism current among many (though certainly far from all) Europeans, are not in the end very different morally from the Europeans. We cannot afford to dismiss them with contempt, though I know it feels good and powerful to be able to sling the vitriole, self-blinding though vitriole often is.

We have to be direct in criticizing each other, yet put less emphasis on 'winning' arguments and more emphasis on learning from an argument; a little more modesty mixed in with the passionate intensity; a little more listening and scrupulous fairness. Passionate diatribes are fun but without sufficient modesty and openness, such speeches amount to a kind of verbal junk food, more entertaining than nourishing. The West needs more of the art of cooperative listening if we are to be united in action. Else we just help Islamofascists to divide the West and make it easier to conquer us through demography, immigration, terror, threats of terror, etc.

Incidentally, I wasn't referring to the German translation of Hugh's article just above.

Just read Hugh's "La Douce France" in the original English. Powerful stuff -- A pity it has not been translated into French. (Or has it?) Something about the piece seems quite French, in the very best sense. And Hugh seems to have lived in France for years. I imagine the article, well-translated, would 'speak' powerfully to French readers.

You can get the English version by putting "La Douce France Hugh" into Google

The BNP didn't field an Albanian candidate, they tried to field a "totally assimilated Greek Armenian" and all hell broke loose in the rank because of it.
"I don’t give a stuff if he has ancestors that built the Taj Mahal, he ain’t British.”

I am not really arguing with km any more, as such. I refute his arguements because I don't want other people who do not know the UK thinking that the BNP are an acceptable Nationalist party because they are not. If km regards the fact of members of my family dropping into a pub before a football match and having to leave it because of the racist abuse emanating from BNP activists as "hearsay evidence" which does not convince him then so be it.

"It was John Sobieski, a Pole, who saved Vienna from the Muslim invaders in 1683."
Sobieski had many more virtues. He was a great friend of Polish Jews (obviously knew where to invest his powers and loyalties well!).
"Sobieski always showed himself to be a staunch friend of the Jews. He granted them many privileges in Lithuania and Poland, endeavored to counteract the agitation of the priests against them, and sought to discredit the false accusations brought forward by their enemies.
The Jews found in him a powerful protector. During his reign the Jewish communities partly regained their former prosperity, and their organization, including that of the Council of the Four Lands, was strengthened.

Besides the special privileges granted to the Jewish community of Zolkiev situated on his personal estate, Sobieski also issued about twenty decrees in favor of the Jews of Lemberg, which edicts included warnings to the magistrates and priests not to oppress the Jews ("Acta Grodzkie i Ziemskie Miasta Lwowa," vol. x.). When the four districts of the Lithuanian council—Wilna, Grodno, Brest, and Pinsk—could not agree as to spheres of influence, Sobieski ordered (Feb. 8, 1682) that the question be settled within twelve weeks (Bershadski, "Litovskiye Yevrei," p. 19). In 1682 he ordered, in response to a petition of the Jews of Wilna, that they be relieved from the supervision of the magistrates (Bershadski, l.c. pp. 18-19). He also renewed the old edicts by a decree dated May 6, 1672."

The free spirit of Wislawa Szymborska or Zbigniew Herbert or Czeslaw Milosz (who entitled one of his essays -- about the endemic lying in Communist societies --"Ketman") is as antipathetic to Islam as that of John Sobieski. And possibly as powerful.

Whoever respects Jews cannot be sympathetic towards Islam.
All the poets mentioned by you, Hugh, have been deeply touched by Jewish history:

*Mr. Cogito seeks advice*

So many books dictionaries

thick encyclopedias

but no one to give advice

they've studied the sun

moon stars

lost me

my soul

refuses the comfort

of knowledge

I wander here at night

on the paths of the fathers

and there

the town of Braclaw

among black sunflowers

that place we abandoned

that place which screams

it is shabas

as always on shabas

the New Heaven appears

- I seek you rebbe

-He's not here -

say the hasids

- he's in the world of sheol

- he had a beautiful death

say the hasids

- very beautiful

as if he crossed

from one corner

to the other

all black

in his hands

a burning Torah

- I seek you rebbe

- behind which heaven

did you hide your wise ears

- my heart aches rebbe

- I am troubled

maybe he would help me

rebbe Nachman

but how am I to find him

among so many ashes."

(Zbigniew Herbert)

http://www.dialog.org/art/milosz.html

http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/exhib/ghetto2/still.html

"All the poets mentioned by you [Szymborska, Herbert, Milosz], Hugh, have been deeply touched by Jewish history..."
-- from a posting above

I didn't know that. But I'm not surprised. How, after all, coming from Poland, and being the kind of people that they are or were, could it be otherwise?

Hugh, please add to your list the wonderful Jerzy Ficowski, who died a few days ago:

http://www.thehypertexts.com/Jerzy_Ficowski_Poet_Poetry_Picture_Bio.htm

http://jta.org/page_view_breaking_story.asp?intid=2556

Here is his poem (one of many from the collection "Reading the Ashes"?) about Dr Janusz Korczak:

"What did the Old Doctor do
in the cattle wagon
bound for Treblinka on the 5th of August
over the few hours of blood flow
over the dirty river of time

I do not know

what did this Charon of his free will
this oarless ferryman do
did he distribute among the children
the remainder of gasping breath
and for himself spare only
a chill down his spine

I do not know

did he lie to them
for instance
in small numbing doses
groom the sweaty little heads
of the scurrying lice of fear

I do not know

but for all that later there
in Treblinka
all their terror all their tears
turned against him

oh there were still only
just a few minutes say a lifetime
was it a little or a lot
I was not there I do not know

suddenly the Old Doctor saw
the children had grown old
as old as himself
older and older
they had to become ash-grey in a hurry

so when the SS man
or the guard struck him
they saw the Doctor become
a child like them
smaller and smaller still
until he became unborn

since then along with the Old Doctor
they fill no space

I know "

Ficowski I am unfamiliar with except for the poem I have just read above. I have, in Italian, Janusz Korczak's "Matteo," a fable that may have been among those stoires he told those children, the ones he volunteered to accompany on their last, one-way trip.

The BNP didn't field an Albanian candidate, they tried to field a "totally assimilated Greek Armenian" and all hell broke loose in the rank because of it.
"I don’t give a stuff if he has ancestors that built the Taj Mahal, he ain’t British.”

Granny I stand corrected on Sharif Gawad's nationality him being Armenian rather than Albanian. However the way you word your post makes it sound that he wasnt allowed to stand because of a rebelion within the party. Well it would appear that he did stand as a councilor so again this shoots down your argument that the BNP is some form of Nazi white supremacist party.

You then say.

I am not really arguing with km any more, as such. I refute his arguements because I don't want other people who do not know the UK thinking that the BNP are an acceptable Nationalist party because they are not. If km regards the fact of members of my family dropping into a pub before a football match and having to leave it because of the racist abuse emanating from BNP activists as "hearsay evidence" which does not convince him then so be it.

Granny anyone with an ounce of critical thinking is going to look at that statement and dismiss it as just being an ad hominem argument based on your emotional responses rather than fact or reason. I have shown time and again through verifiable sources that the party has members and councilors from varying ethnic backgrounds, what some of the rank and file think of this is irrelevant, it is what the party does in terms of actions and policies that counts.

The whole world is supposed to dismiss a legitimate political party one that made big gains in the last local elections from both Tory and Labor support bases and just dismiss them out of hand, because you say so and you think they are bad. I am going to debate you because until you can show me evidence to the contrary I do think the BNP are a respectable nationalist party. And they are the only party to recognize that Islam is invading and dhimmifying the UK and therefore can make a positive contribution to the political dialogue in the UK.

I have seen similar attacks made against JW, LGF and a host of other sites and organizations, but checking any of these sites with even a small amount of critical analysis shows they are nothing of the sort.

You have yet to produce any concrete evidence that the BNP is as you put it a Nazi party. By US standards they would be considered a mainstream conservative party and not as you say some sort of rabid pack of brown shirts. Why don’t you just admit that you can't show them to be the Nazis that you say they are. Admit that your criticism stems from reflexive liberal group think and bitterness that the BNP have taken the political ground the Tories used to represent.

I will consider the debate closed when you admit the representation of the BNP is distorted by an active campaign of media bias from the national union of journalists and an enforced no platform policy from the liberal fascists that are running the UK.

In a time where conservative news sources and legitimate critical sources against Islam are being purged from search engines like Google. Your stance needs to be challenged and shown for what it is, illogical, not based on fact and subject to bias because of your own political standing.

Hugh, I very much recommend Korczak's diaries from the ghetto:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300097425/qid=1148584087/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/103-5839799-7477415?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

More by Ficowski:

Jewish Effects

she has a wardrobe from which dresses
still had enough time to get out
but anyway they would have gone out of style

an armchair from which someone once rose
only for a while
but it sufficed for the rest of his life

dishes pots full of hunger
but they will serve more than enough

a portrait of a little girl killed

in lifelike colors

she could have had also a black table

in good condition

but it did not appeal

was somewhat sad

A Girl of Six from the Ghetto
Begging on Smolna Street in 1942

She had nothing

but eyes to grow into

in them quite by chance

two stars of David

perhaps a tear would put them out

so she cried

her speech

was not silver

at least worth

a spit or a head’s turning away

her tearful speech

full of humpbacked words

so she fell silent

Her silence

was not golden

worth at most

5 pennies perhaps a carrot

a very well-behaved silence

with a Jewish accent

of hunger

so she died

Lamentation

At times wind from the burning

would drift dark kites along

and riders on the carousel

caught petals in mid-air.

That same hot wind

Blew open the girls’ skirts

And the crowds were laughing
On that lovely Warsaw Sunday.

Czeslaw Milosz (“Campo di Fiori”)

There were also tears

the informers wept

the policeman wiped his eyes on his sleeve

the storm trooper buried his head in his hands

and the soot-blackened police dog

mournfully whined

Smoke rose

the enormous shadow of fire

the stinging smoke of Krochmalna

Gęsia Nalewki Zamenhof streets

the red-bearded caftan-clad smoke

the wind blew it to this side

all the way

straight into the eyes

When a rudderless inveterate socialist like J. Chirac is considered in Europe to be "Center Right", when George Bush is considered to be the embodiment of Satan himself, when the US and European Media regularly repeat the "KKK" accusations by racist Latino Groups against the "Minutemen", then certainly it's reasonable to label the BNP "Nazis." Hyperbolic hysteria is a substitute for "discourse" these days...

The boa constrictor of the demiurgeous PC enforcers are bent on suffocating discourse at all costs. Ironically -- this intransigence and suppression is a genuine trigger for radical right wing movements in the Western World. Out of the (possibly reasonable) fear of producing extremist nationalist movements, such squelching of nationalistic impulses (especially in times of true peril) or misconstruing nationalism always as "Nazism" exacerbate the darkest aspects of such impulses and forces such movements to be far more virulent than they otherwise might have been.

Pym Fortuyn is another example of this phenomenon -- about as "virulent" as Tom Tancredo is here in the US for his anti-uncontrolled immigration attitudes -- he is nevertheless regularly labelled a "Neofascist" and "Nazi" by the European press, and VERY FEW seem to have the wit to chellenge this argument-by-assertion.

We need a 12 step program for societies which have lapsed so deploringly into drunkeness and stupor.

When did you last see or hear any BNP supporters and note what they actually say, rather than the sanitised version they put on their website?

For someone who purports to oppose fascism to the extent that you denigrate Britain's role in defeating this evil, you seem to accept the present day fascists with remarkable equanimity.

But then you are, as you're countrymen were in 1939, the other side of the Atlantic.

suffocating discourse at all costs

And this is a bad thing? "Discourse" should be suffocated, along with hegemony, parameters, minutemen, poster children and all the other "demiurgeous" twaddle that one hears too much of these days.

And look what you made me do - spell "your" as you're". That's worse than any ignorance, sweeping generalisations or support of neo-Nazis.

Tired old saw alert... ***

Does the phrase "Get over yourself" mean anything to you? I think it's one of yours -- and I think it applies to you most aptly.

As I thought, you have no direct knowledge of the BNP, and, like KM, are not qualified to talk about them. Not that this stops either of you.

And this is a bad thing? "Discourse" should be suffocated, along with hegemony, parameters, minutemen, poster children and all the other "demiurgeous" twaddle that one hears too much of these days.

Posted by: Interested [TypeKey Profile Page] at May 25, 2006 04:17 PM

So much for free speech and thought in Britain, now wonder your society is crumbling around your ears. Liberal fascism marches on!

I am with Jsla on this one your definitions of political groups and individuals has been so cowed by Europe’s march to the left and PCism that what is in reality nothing more than traditional conservative politics appears like Nazism to you.

Both yours and Granny's arguments have been found wanting, lacking in verifiable facts and prone to hysteria. Until you can pull the PC blinkers off you are doomed to perish with the current crop of centrist socialists that make up both the left and right wing parties that are dragging Europe into dhimmitude.

Jsla I have to leave this one to you, as much as I would love to continue the debate, I am going away for a Memorial Day trip to the Grand Canyon. I intend to use this time to sit, meditate and contemplate the sacrifices made by US servicemen to defend the principles of the US constitution, particularly those of free speech. This would seem to be especially relevent in light of Interested’s statement above.

Have a good weekend everyone.

And who says Americans don't understand irony?

Again you have completely ignored the substantive points I make. Is it possible that the BNP is a Nazi group? Certainly. You may be completely correct broadly tarring the BNP with such labels. (and I should know -- broadly tarring is, according to you, one of my specialties after all...)

Perhaps I was giving you your due and arguing your cause, since "Britain has not gone in for Fascism or Marxism. We have never had those things here..." But then, again, perhaps I was not.

Unanswered by you (typical) is the point about political correctness stifling discourse (a splendid word) and squelching debate until radical extremism seems like the only choice for average European or British citizens. Seems like a premise worth pondering (though not, I would suggest, by adipose slaves to form over function, or self satisfied prigs...)

Again, have you seen or heard the BNP at close quarters? No? So how on earth can you possibly have an opinion?

Silly question, really.

Extremely.

The BNP are a racist group. And as for your "verifiable facts" km, why do you persist in urging me to give details that would serve to identify me, my family and my friends?
Mr Spencer has better things to do with his time than pass details between us. But if requested to by him I am able to provide the name and location of the pub, the date and time, the match about to take place and the name of the BNP candidate at last months election, and the ward he stood for, who was leading the racist chants. I can give you now the more repeatable of those chants,
If they're black, send them back. and
There ain't no black, in the Union Jack.

You think I should vote for such people?
You're mad!

So you're quite content to ignore eyewitness accounts of the statements of BNP supporters and secret filming of the party's rallies and go on the sanitised version of themselves they present on their websites?

Does the fact that they are a whites only party, and would therefore exclude Ayaan Hirsi Ali, but admit Yvonne Ridley, bother you in the slightest?

Up to you, of course, to believe fascists' own account of themselves.

I almost don't want to intrude at this point... it's almost amusing watching the dialogue you're having with yourself!

Well, you haven't answered my point or Granny W's. And you can't, because you know nothing about the BNP. As was said in Blackadder, "mouth is open, should be shut".

I'd need a huge trowel to manage the mendacious swill your slinging around at this point. Hardly worth the effort.

My wife is going to get mad I am at the computer when we are supposed to be leaving but I can't help myself

So you're quite content to ignore eyewitness accounts of the statements of BNP supporters and secret filming of the party's rallies and go on the sanitised version of themselves they present on their websites?

Posted by: Interested [TypeKey Profile Page] at May 25, 2006 05:41 PM

I will when I see so much bias in reporting from the UK media and it is an official policy of the National Union of Journalists to discredit the party, when such wide ranging opinions exist within the general populace and what looks like a government organized campaign to discredit a legal political party, through organization like searchlight. From what I understand the corruption even went as far as conducting recounts behind closed doors after the BNP were elected in Birmingham. A decision that was thankfully overturned and highlighted the corruption of the Labor party.

Something is all very fishy about this and I will keep pulling the both of you up every time I see you try and stifle any debate.

Granny said:
And as for your "verifiable facts" km, why do you persist in urging me to give details that would serve to identify me, my family and my friends?

I am not asking for personal details I am saying show us objective evidence from law courts that the BNP is a Nazi party. My feeling is you can't, also what kind of evidence is "I can tell you what pub we were in, what football match we were going to etc etc".

Do you have videotaped verifiable evidence to support such accusations? If not why should I or anyone believe you? I have seen so called secretly filmed tape of BNP meetings where they have been charged with inciting racial hatred; I saw nothing in them that I would deem racist, also 12 members of a jury in a recent court case couldn’t either.

Every one of your accusations can be found wanting and your attitude stops people from raising legitimate political questions. Jsla raises the point that through stifling discourse through political correctness you will eventually drive individuals to more extreme outlets.

From where I am sitting the BNP provides an outlet for many people who are on the receiving end of Britain’s multicultural experiment. How are those people supposed to air their grievances against the main parties when they have been abandoned by them. Why not accept they have a point and can contribute to the political discourse in the country. You seem so critical of tarring everyone with the same brush. Yet that is what you are doing to the millions who are now voting BNP.

I have yet to see you come up with any solutions, other than vote Tory or UKIP, the people are not stupid, they can see Islam is waging a war on their territory and they want a party that recognizes this. Until the Tories or UKIP can stand up and do the same, more and more people will continue to vote for the BNP.

I would guess Granny and Interested you don’t have to live on the sink estates of Oldham or Burnley and watch council housing be preferentially given to Afghan plane hijackers. People have a right to choose and from the evidence it looks like more and more people are choosing the BNP, because the other parties’ just don’t get the extent of the Jihad and because the BNP represent a form of nationalism that has their interests at heart and not those of the dawa.

It is amusing to see you defending the tired old parties even when their policies have become so indefensible and so indifferent from each other. Why can't you accept that the BNP policies particularly from a national defense perspective make sense? Why not debate the BNP's manifesto from a political view point instead of tarring all those that have decided their policies make sense as Nazi's.

Interested said.

Again, have you seen or heard the BNP at close quarters? No? So how on earth can you possibly have an opinion?

Interested you are forgetting that I come from the UK originally and my family still live there along with many good friends. These are family and friends that were lifelong Tory and Labor voters until this year and in the local elections voted BNP. Am I to take it that I have been living under a misapprehension about all those people who I have known all my life? Are they really closet Nazi’s and racists, maybe you know something I don’t. But last time I checked they were all reasonable people from multiple backgrounds and races, from doctors to active service men and English to Indian, they were most certainly not racists and Nazi’s. All have seen what is happening in their towns and cities and have reached the end of their tether.

I for one would like to vote Interested for pedant of the day, surely use of the word "demiurgeous" deserves some accolode.

Have a good weekend folks.

Whoops I meant accolade

I didn't feel offended, km. I fear, it is just easy to misunderstand me, because my English is not so good. Everthing's ok :)

Thank you for the translation Hugo. It's a great article and I deeply pity our French neighbours.

Just a few weeks ago I read a headline: "German schoolgirls attacked by French youths" and I was shocked and wondered, what's going on? We are best friends, why do they hate us? And then I read the whole article: French youths had thrown stones towards female German exchange students wearing mini-skirts and ordered them to either dress decently or to get out of the quarter. Stoning is not a typically French activity, is it? Of course the only "French" of these youths was their passports.

This is a typical Dhimmi-article. Better to blame our French friends ( they will understand it, they are dhimmis as well) than to mention the word "Muslim" in context with violence or crime. I'm so sick of all that.

Interested writes: "Bash your allies why don't you? I'm sick and tired of the ignorance and arrogance of American posters here when they generalise about Europe."

OK, you go ahead and explain to me why Europe needed the United States Air Force to intervene militarily in the Balkans, bombing Serbia. Where the hell were the British Royal Air Force, the French Air Force, the German Air Force? Why did Europe need the U.S. to fly its own bombers all the way across the Atlantic Ocean to handle a problem on Europe's own doorstep? President Clinton had assured Americans that U.S. troops would be doing peacekeeping in the Balkans only for a year or so. As far as I know, they are still there.

Europe failed a crucial test. It proved that it can't even stabilize itself, let alone move to stabilize other parts of the world. Yet it dared to take the credit for the fall of Milosovic, crediting such "soft power" entities as the International Criminal Court, completely ignoring the 78 days of U.S. bombing of Serbia which is what REALLY got Milosovic to throw in the towel.

Right now, even left-wing and so-called "progressive" activists are pleading for the United States to intervene in Darfur to end the crisis there. Despite their usual anti-American attitudes, despite their usual Europhilia, they are not pleading for France or Germany to intervene in Darfur. Because they know that's a lost cause.

Europe can do a lot of things. But it can't use force in its own interests, let alone other interests. Whether it's the Balkans, or the tsunami in the Indian Ocean, or Darfur, when you really need the heavy lifting done, there's still only one place to go: The Pentagon, Washington DC.

With all the threats to world peace, the day Europe embarks on a military buildup and starts being capable of defending its own vital interests without U.S. blood and treasure each and every time is the day I will regain some support for Europe. Because right now, my dear, Europeans are parasites on the American military umbrella, hiding behind self-righteous pacifism to avoid facing up to their responsibilities. Get off your butts and start regaining the fighting spirit of your ancestors.

You conveniently forget the British troops who have died in Iraq, or those that are still there, or those in Afghanistan.

Perhaps you don't hear about them on your news. I understand the news in the US is very parochial.

You and Jsla do everything to confirm any impressions we may have of Americans as arrogant, ignorant and insular.

Interested:

You refer to Europeans allies. Now I ask whose allies? If you think western Europe is an ally of America's I truly have to wonder how you arrived at that conclusion.

Now, if Europe was an ally of ours, why DID France and Germany sell BILLION$ worth of weaponry to Saddam Hussein's regime in the 1990s AFTER this man openly declared war on Americans. (In 1991 this dictator stated "the American people are going to be swimming in blood"). France and Germany were both aware of the Hussein regime's intentions. This type of behavior is NOT the mark of an ally. Insofar as I know these weapons deals with Iraq were never so much as questioned in political circles in the EU. Certainly we never heard about any opposition to them.

Recently, the anti-American bigot and ex-playwright, Harold Pinter, was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize. And what exactly for, may I ask????? hate? bad playwriting? anti-Americanism??? Talk about 'jingoes!' (a Pinter quote: "Look at Rumsfeld's face and the case is made." Now, I call THAT voodoo reasoning!).

A recent New Statesman edition featured Paul Wolfowitz's picture on the cover with the title "The Worst man in the World?" Some of us might ask, seeing this, "The Worst Publication in the World?" Europeans have no scruples about bashing Americans in their media (even the Brits). Sadly this sort of coverage of America is commonplace. Allied behavior? Hardly.

And not only do Europeans bash. They riot in their cities and have been doing this since the 1920s (if not before). How often have you seen American cities engulfed by anti-European rioting? Although the European media may be dominated by the left in Europe, there appears little (if any) reaction against it among the European mainstream. Marginalized outsiders like B. Henri-Levy are left to protest mutely.

For these and other reasons too numerous for time and space to allow, I am forced to conclude that Europe is for the most part a false friend of the United States. (Although there are the occasional bright spots in the bleak political landscape, such as Angela Merkel and Margaret Thatcher and their like).

You and other western Europeans might consider applying the same standards to yourselves that you expect from other people. That way you won't be seen as hypocritical.

****************

Interested: "I understand the news in the US is very parochial."

Jsla: There you go again --

****************

"What nonsense. Britain has never gone in for Marxism or Fascism. We don't do that stuff."

Then what's that BNP thing -- What's going on with that?

****************

Interested: "And as for racism, this country was the prime mover in abolishing slavery."

& it's redundant twin:

Interested: "Our role in WW2, like our role in abolishing slavery is something my country is proud of."

Jsla: Why mention slavery TWICE -- your ironic legerdemain wasn't lost on me (even though I'm an Amerian) -- It's obvious what your snide America-bashing hypocritical implication was. For every crime, sin, flaw, or shortcoming America bashing Euros want to trot out and project onto America -- I can find THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of examples of FAR WORSE British and European transgressions -- But it's fruitless -- and malignant. But when your collective amnesia and assorted self-image disorders require you to project your seething insecurities, your racial and colonial guilts, and everything else Dr. Freud would delectate over onto America - I'll put it right back on you.

****************

Interested: "And who says Americans don't understand irony?"

Jsla: Thanks for pointing that out. Constructive criticism like this is much appreciated.

****************

Interested: "And look what you made me do - spell "your" as you're". That's worse than any ignorance, sweeping generalisations or support of neo-Nazis."

Jsla: Perhaps an attempt at humour? Somehow the "support of neo-Nazis" stepped on your punchline...) Anyway, a big warm 'Thanks!' goes out to you for tarring me with that overbroad brush of yours -- wait -- I thought I was the overbroad tarrer with brushes...! Interested; I'd hate to see you become too doctrinaire in your approach to life -- for me -- form is important, but hardly ever trumps content.

****************
Interested: "Tarring people with the same brush is your game, Jsla, not mine. I am in fact very pro-American. "

Jsla: (Sometimes I admit I have trouble seeing it... :o)

****************

Interested: "I'm sick and tired of the ignorance and arrogance of American posters here when they generalise about Europe."

Jsla: What do you expect? Our media is parochial, we sat on our ass while Britain stood tall against Hitler, we're ignorant, arrogant, and American... We have giant brushes and too many cans of tar to know what to do with -- so we go around painting everything overbroadly -- it sucks to be so insular -- after all we're pretty much everywhere on the planet trying to keep a lid on things -- sounds like a recipe for disaster doesn't it? Just a bunch of Ignorant arrogant insular cowboys rampaging all over the planet... It all sounds a little contradictory, and slightly bitter and rude, but hey! -- what would I know...

Unfortunately, Jsla, you just don't seem to be able to do pithy and sarcastic. Your country has many strengths, but pithy sarcasm isn't among them. So don't try - it's just sad.

On the specific point about the BNP, no we don't do Fascism here. We resist it. When we see our countrymen supporting the BNP, in very small numbers as yet, we don't like it. When we see Americans saying this is a good idea, we think they are idiots. Especially when those same Americans belittle our role in fighting Fascism.

Now quit while you're behind. Take a look at that website. It will soothe your jangled nerves and perhaps you will learn something.

What a fabulous antiphon. I guess 'who's more sarcastic' must be a British preoccupation -- I hadn't heard of that one... I'd be the first to agree that your sarcasm exceeds mine in every regard -- as does your technique of substituting ad hominem attacks for cogent responses. So I can't give you the "pith" argument -- sorry!

Your post is certainly an exemplar of arrogance, so you win that one too. You don't strike me as being terribly ignorant (except in the sphere of self knowledge and self honesty) so I won't personally smear you with that particular slur, as you are so fond of doing to me.

It's been fun, though. 'Chat me up' any time now, ya hear?

Pax?

Pax.

Interested:

If you dislike Americans bashing Europeans, the onus is on you to set a better example and avoid such lack of etiquette. But unfortunately, you end up doing the same thing you accuse the American posters here of doing. You will not attract many interested parties with such tactics.

If you find something offensive it would make sense that you would avoid it yourself. But since you don't we are forced to conclude that you're either provaricating, a poor communicator, or hold yourself above whoever you are communicating with. Or all of the above.

All of these possibilities are negative.

You have stated that Americans don't "do pithy and sarcastic well."

SO??? Please tell us, what is it that YOU DO WELL????

Perhaps you would do better to stick to the topic here anyway. You sure know how to get yourself in trouble with some of us otherwise.

provaricating

Prevaricating.