Fitzgerald: Europe's slow death

My view, long held, is that we need to have a separation from the islamic world. As a start one needs to take muslims at their own words and agree wholeheartedly that there is indeed a dar ul islam and a dar ul harb, and for the good of humanity, infidels and muslims alike, it is better to live apart in respective dars.

It is a sad fact that muslim presence anywhere leads to discomfort of other already established communities. Soon the established community will leave or forced out by Jihad by mob violence, and yet another region becomes dar ul islam.

Muslim nations, left to their own devices, unable to export their excess population, an ever deteriorating infrastructure, increasing poverty and diminishing military power, will have no alternative but to reform islam. And even if they do not, they will not be a menace to the safety and security of the rest of the world, for the simple reason that they will not have access to harvest infidel lives.

Harsh as this is, it is the most humane way to progress. What frightens me is that we are moving towards a new world war that is quite unlike previous world wars. This world war will be a civil war ie a global civil war - the very worst type imaginable. Else we are looking forward to a Three Conjecture scenario leading to deaths on an unprecedented scale.

Separation leaves hope for the future for everybody. Islam will collapse quite quickly in historic terms if it is unable to expand (that is after all its main reason), and thus release the 1 billion souls in its enslavement.

DP111:

Your words ring true. It is the height of folly to permit such resettlement on the basis of some putative refugee status or another.

I remember that the Ayatollah Khomeini returned to Iran, not from Iraq, not from any number of other Moslem countries, but from France.

Separation and repatriation of hostile populations makes most people feel uncomfortable because it smacks of ehtnic cleansing and many other horrific events in history. But to permit the continued migration of what amounts to enemy aliens into the West as is absurd as the Israeli government permitting migration of Nazi sympathizers into Israel due to "persecution" elsewhere. Nonsense!

I agree, this problem can be managed humanely, legally and promptly, perhaps avoiding what you call of global civil war.

(Not entirely) OT, for UK readers, taqiyya merchant Tariq Ramadan will be lying tonight, as Kenneth Williams might have said, about a Muslim reformation:

Ramadan explains that in medieval times it made sense for the relatively small community of Muslims to see the world as divided into the House of Islam defending itself against the rest of the world – the House of War. Today, though, for the first time in their history, many Muslims are living as a minority in Europe, where they are free to practise their religion. This new situation requires new, relevant answers.

Not all that re-assuring, I'm afraid, Tariq.

The documentary is on Channel 4 from 8-9pm.

I agree with you Sofia on native born citizens receiving the allowance. And on the issue of the immigrants having babies, if they are on welfare and the citizens of that country have to support them, then they need birth control.

I've been raked over the coals for that, but the way to look at it is, if we have to support you, then we have a say in how many babies we will let you have. When you get off the rolls, and can support your family, then you can have children. I'm not talking forced abortions. Forced birth control. There is no sense in these people who immigrate to a host country because they want to spread their ideology, to be able to have acess to a host country's benefits that is for their own citizens. Birth control is way cheaper than having and raising a child.

It is also worth saying that the West should not be used as an experiment for Muslims to become moderate or even apostasize. We simply do not have that much time and the success rate for apostasy is very low so we would be letting in a lot Muslims who either wage jihad or support that jihad with money or pen. Far too risky. Ali Sina recognizes Europe's distrust of Muslims and understands that a sensible immigration reform policy is a legitimate form of self-defense. Allowing ex-Muslims in is a good idea, but I think the implication is that population would be low anyways so such a migration would not make a significant dent in the demographics of Europe. Also, focusing more on the individual rather than the collective will ensure that we get the real ex-Muslims, not the watered down Muslims. Most Iranians who fled Khomeini's regime were disenchanted with Islam, but it is a mistake to say that they were ALL ex-Muslims. We need people who will tell the truth about Islam and that is why we need more Ali Sinas and less Kanan Makiyas.

Of course, depending on the context, sometimes an ex-Muslim can better support weakening Islam in his own country. Even if that ex-Muslim came to the West, he would still need protection or anonyminity in order to criticize it publicly. If he is criticizing it in his own country and his own language, then maybe it will have more currency among his own people than it would for the multitudes of Muslims from different ethnicities living in the West. My point is that he would be in danger either way, so if he's going to risk his life, he might as well do it in a place where his message will be the most effective (it is up to him to decide which place would be the most effective). Ex-Muslims are an asset to infidels because they tell the truth, but they are an asset to Muslims who are disenchanted with Islam as well for the same reason. By scooping up all of the ex-Muslims and bringing them to the West, we are depriving the Muslim world of their most talented and brightest brethren. We should keep that in mind.

Immigration reform should be the number one issue when we talk about Muslims in the West and that is why I'm afraid we can't put all this weight on the ex-Muslims. We have to listen to the Western Islamo-critics. Although I respect Hirsi Ali for her bravery, we really should be paying more attention to Geert Wilders. Not only does he understand Islam better than Hirsi Ali, but his solutions are more practical than hers as well. Hirsi Ali does not have answers for what to do with the huge Muslim population that is already in Europe and hates it. Assimilation and promoting secular values are doomed to fail. Wilders is more realistic. We can try out Hirsi Ali's ideas with the remnant of Muslims leftover after immigration reform(s) who are willing to leave Islam but not a moment sooner. Fighting for women's rights is nice and all but I think Hirsi Ali gets a little too ambitious sometimes and she needs to focus more on what CAN be done, like immigration reform. It is impossible to protect every Muslim woman from abuse in Europe and quite frankly, it's not really Europe's concern anyways. If the Muslims are concerned about the plight of women in their community, then they should take the initiative to correct it.

Four things need to be done: understand that the history and culture of Europe needs to be preserved, understand that assimilation is not the answer but immigration reform is, understand that if Europe wants to survive then Europeans have to stand up to Islam themselves and they can't outsource it to ex-Muslims (they can certainly help, but to expect Hirsi Ali to save all Europe is quite unfair to Hirsi Ali), and understand that if the Muslim community wants to save itself from Islam, then the work must be primarily done by ex-Muslims and not infidels.

Islam is a plague on Dar al-Islam as much as it is on Dar al-Harb.

Islam is a plague on both houses.

Change in Dar al-Islam will come from outside. It is a closed system; a closed circle which tries to expand into Dar al-Harb. The outside world needs to push against it from all sides using every angle. It can be pushed back, no doubt. It will take a common understanding to do this.

We need to keep repeating our message and tell the world to Shoot the Messenger (of Islam). This is one case where The Messenger bears responsibility for the message. Shoot him! Ali Sina has got it right. It all rises and falls on the Sunnah... Get the Infidel to understand the Messenger and he will be shot down in flames.

Never. Give. Up.

Everything makes sense if a person can connect the words and deeds of Mohammed to the words and deeds of modern jihadis.

The system is an illogical closed circle but consistent within itself as to 'what needs to be done.'

Sofia: At least in America there is a ray of hope (although you might not know that when you hear well-meaning but wilfully ignorant politicans like Condaleeza Rice (who I otherwise like) speak about Islam and the Middle East).

A recent poll taken in The United States revealed that only 19% of all Americans polled viewed Islam favorably. This in spite of all the hard-assed campaigning by Islamic political pressure groups such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR). Many Americans possess weapons including machine guns which they will bring out if they find it necessary to do so to protect their country. All is not lost. I doubt Americans are on the brink of cultural suicide--although I do see warning signals that need to be observed carefully.

I know not a single American who likes Islam AT ALL. And I do not know any who have the slightest inclination of forgiving Islam for the 9-11-2001 tragedy. I can tell you I will personally never forgive Islam for that. EVER.

Islam is on the move in America, alright. It is moving back to wherever the hell it came from!

Islam: the one issue where it's appropriate to Shoot the Messenger.

pythagoras

I tend to agree - while I have seen people who oppose the Iraq war, I haven't seen anybody here who likes Islam, period.

And not just the West: the East needs to be careful about this too. Here's one place the Chinese do it right by the Uygars, but Islam needs to be contained in Phillipines, Thailand and India. There, political correctness is not a problem at a popular level, but does seem to be embedded in the politicians.

But how much of this negetive attitude towards Islam translates into political terms? How many of this 81% view Islam as the #1 item on which to vote on - over taxes, education, and even illegal immigration?

Steyn on Fallacci and other matters:

http://www.macleans.ca/culture/books/article.jsp?content=20060501_125827_125827

Whatever happened to the US Government Report into the nature of Islam? I beleive it was commissioned at least a few months ago and the question to be answered was: Can Islam be radicalised or is Islam, in itself, radical.

Anyone know the status?

DP111-

There's only one legitimate use for the Arabic word "Dar" that I can think of.

The way someone from the American mountains (think Appalachian Spring, with hunting rifles and a banjo) would put it:

"Dar's yours. Dar's our. Now, git!"

(And the baying of ornery dogs escorting them home.)

Anyone know the status?

Posted by: myiironu at May 1, 2006 02:00 PM

I imagine CAIR sued and had it silenced!!

It's so sad how moslims believe that this warmongering thief they call mahummad is the perfect example for us all to respect and follow. Rather than mocking the germ with cartoons, how about some home truths told about the peassant come mafia godfather?

On the original comments about Europe's slow death, I wish to add some information vis-a-vis the following quote:

"What German in the post-Nazi era wishes to support measures that appear “racist” or “xenophobic”? "

I am an american, living and working in Germany since 1997 and currently live in the former capitol of Bonn.

In Germany, the politics of immigration has been like the fifth rail for politicians ever since the forming of the republic (thanks to us americans, the brits and the french, to be duly noted) in 1949- touch it and die. Exactly because of what happened between 1933-1945, germans wanted to be extremely careful to be completely inclusionistic and up to 2006, any politican who spoke out about reforming Germany's immigration policies was immediately shouted down as a NAZI. A strange, ironic twist of fate it is indeed.

Then came the need for guest-workers (Gastarbeiter) in the new republic as there simply were not enough healthy men to work and get the system going again. Enter the turks, who came in large numbers and later brought the whole mischpocha with them. For this reason, Germany has of all nations on earth, the largest procentage of an minority population as an enclosed segment in it's society. In a country of 82,000,000 people on a piece of land roughly the size of Montana, 9,000,000 of them are turks, classified into three categories:

1.) Old turks - the origional wave that came here, worked hard, and never learned germany. Tends to be secular.

2.) German Turks - the second wave, so approximately the baby boomer generation, children of the first wave. Tend to be much more religious and refuse to learn german.

3.) Turkish Germans (I know, the two labels sound dumb, but this is how they categorize themselves) - second and third generation turks, many of whom only speak german and very little if any turkish, who only know Germany as their home, but whose parents are extemely religious and segregationistic.

There are complete parts of cities in Germany (Mannheim, Cologne, Hamburg, Berlin) where only turkish is spoken and you will have to go for miles before you even see a sign in german. Wild, eh?

That being said, the larger problem lies not alone with the turks, who admittedly build their own enclosed neighborhoods and have no desire to integrate. Muslims of other nationalities who have recently come to Germany under the guise of asylum - this trend has skyrocketed ---- and these people are not pleasant people. These are real extremists.

Germans are starting to wake up and demand an immigration policy which forces immigrants to learn german and pass a history course - which I find to be an excellent idea. The german secret service (BND) is keeping a very close eye on a number of mosques in Germany where hateful sermons are being preached.

On a personal note, an observation. My wife and I have both noted that the number of muslim women walking around Bonn with head or body covering has multiplied by a factor of about 4 to 5! Meanwhile, young muslim guys who all think they are as cool as John Travolta was 30 years ago walk around like gigolos and spit at german women, calling them "western sluts". A couple of young muslim thugs tried to pick fights with me over my dog, which muslims see as "unclean" and cannot stand the fact that dogs are also allowed to ride public transportation. The amount of threats addressed to the Bonn Synagogue has risen by a factor of about 10 in the last year, and wierd extreme-left demos by small groups flailing their hate at the USA, esp. Bush, but also at Israel, is also on the rise. Young muslim schoolchildren (Kindergarden kids, for crying out loud!!) in Berlin painted pictures of different cultures and practically every one of those kids painted a pig to represent the jews. The teacher who leaked this to the press got fired, btw....

So, trying too hard to be tolerant can lead to intolerance. My suspicion is that Europe is going to regret having let 20,000,000 muslims come across the borders.

DP111,

While I agree with your assessment that if kept isolated, islam would turn inward on itself and either reform, or destroy itself. (And I would prefer that it destroyed itself.)

I think that the idea of isolating islam is wishful thinking. It is not going to happen in the real world. Not with France, Germany and Belgium trying to meld Europe and the muslim world into a large Euro-Arab community. Not when the Italians have just elected Prodi as PM - Prodi who is sickeningly islamophilic/arabophilic, and one of the leading forces in the EU parliment for creating this Euro-Arab community.
How can islam be isolated, when Chriac is giving speeches about having open borders and completely free travel throughout the EU and all the countries bordering the Mediterranean Sea? (well presumably excluding Israel, of course)
How can islam be isolated when all across the EU history is being revised to give credence to the myth of "al Andalus", and native EU kids are being forced to take classes on islam that completely misrepresent the religion as peaceful and tolerant?
(And now this same BS is being spread thru US universities, too - so that teachers will learn this lie at university and propgate it to the students they teach at elementary and secondary levels.)

Also as completely aggrssive and merciless as islam has been towards infidels for the past 1350 years, can anyone possibly believe that they would be content to be isolated? No, islam will contintue to expand thru aggression, and hatred, and oppression of non-muslims.

So how can this expansion be stopped without actually waging war against it? And this is a rhetorical question, because the answer is that islamic expansion can't be stopped without waging war against it, because islam is spread by WAR.

It is time for everyone in the USA to wake up! MUSLIMS ARE ALREADY WAGING WAR AGAINST US, and have been for the past 30 years. If someone is waging war against you, you can't defeat them by waging isolation against them.
It's a nice idea, and is tempting, but it just won't work in the real world.

a poster above predicted that, if isolated, Islam would implode. The Algerian leader, once famed as a great Third World [Tiers-mondists] liberator, explained his hatred for Israel by saying that if Israel continued to exist, then Islam could not continue to exist. It was either Israel or Islam, according to him. Apparently, some Muslims flip out, go nuts, go bonkers, that the lowly Jews, abused for centuries in Muslim societies and usually kept at the bottom of the social totem pole, at the bottom of the ladder, of the pecking order --even below other dhimmis-- are able to stand up to jihad aggression, despite being restrained by Western diplomacy. In order to raise Israeli spirits, outside people should tell Israelis this.

An isolated Islam can only implode provided two things: the non-Arab Muslim community remains isolated from the Arab world and to a lesser extent the Persian world (for the Shia). It would usher in a new jahiliyyah and the chances for a revivalist movement would become slim because of the lack of knowledge of Arabic. Two things could happen, either new Islam-lite sects could pop-up or new religions (either through missionaries or foreign conquest) could penetrate the dar-al-islam and since the new generation would forget about the penalty of death for apostasy, they would be more open to conversion out of desperation or siding with the "strong horse". I'm not so much worried about China or Russia aligning with the Muslim world because they'll be harsher with them and the Muslims will beg for the glory days of American and European hegemony to make a comeback. Both parties will end up getting sick of each other in the long run and I see China and Russia isolating themselves from the Muslims in the future as well (possible exceptions: Malaysia and Indonesia). Reformation however will not be possible, no matter how dire the circumstances. They are willing to live in poverty and ignorance for Allah. They don't care. They just don't want infidels to have a better life than them. They will never see Islam as the problem either because they are brainwashed to think that Muhammad was the "smartest man" and Islam is the most "logical" ideology ever invented. They will curse the infidels till they either die or forget about them entirely (due to the new jahiliyyah).

The Muslim faith is a weak faith; proof has been made with the cartoons early this year. These folks are insecure about their faith. Also with the growth of the Christian faith in the global south, this is scaring the Muslims bigtime because the latter is going to over time attract those who want nothing to do with Islam anymore in the future. Keep your eyes on the global south.

This reminds me of the article I read by Amnesty International about Greece deporting illegals- rightfully. They claimed Greece was in violation of UN charter and international law by turning back these refugees. Greece has a right to protect its borders, language and culture by turning back these invaders. Greece justified it by stating they were illegal immigrants- good for Greece. I just wish Bush would wake up to our problem- Muslims marching in support of illegals, ???. Euroarabia to Ameroarabia.
All Greeks whether you are in Greece, America, Australia, Canada or wherever should write the Greek Prime Minister and tell him illegals should be deported, most are Muslims.

It's not Europe which is dying; it's European socialism which is dying. As its governments become increasingly decrepit, and unable to defend even its own institutions, expect home-grown resistance to take note. If Muslim gangs can rampage with relative impunity from prosecution, know that this fact has not been lost upon resistance-inclined persons.

What you watching is a human evolutionary cycle in action: Socialism holds out the promise of a theft-funded "safety net" for those too incompetent to fathom how to survive on their own; and political democracy is the tool by which socialists en masse subordinate the individual rights of others to their collectivist will. And so, stupid and evil people are sheltered from natural evolutionary processes and build up their population.

But now a natural predator, a herd-thinning mechanism, has arrived to feed on docile and witless sheep, who flounder around without a clue what to do.

When Islam has eaten the socialist sheep and destroyed their political constructs, then Islam itself will become prey to reprisal from faster, leaner, and more intelligent organizations.

April 30, 2006
The Muslim Brotherhood and Islamic law in Europe

The Swedish case is hardly unique, but mirrors the demand of Brotherhood-linked organizations throughout Europe. For example, in Germany, the Islamische Gemeinschaft Deutschland (IGD), the country’s largest Muslim organization, has stated in its official publication Al Islam (here, page 48): “In the long run, Muslims cannot be satisfied with the acceptance of German family, estate, and trial law. … Muslims should aim at an agreement between the Muslims and the German state with the goal of a separate jurisdiction for Muslims.” In Great Britain, the UK Islamic Mission, has the stated goal of conducting a “continuous campaign for the establishment of Muslim family laws,” and to “establish Islamic social order in the United Kingdom in order to seek the pleasure of Allah.”

http://counterterrorismblog.org/

This article is well worth a read. One needs to scroll down a bit to get to the article.

From eaglecap: "This reminds me of the article I read by Amnesty International about Greece deporting illegals- rightfully. They claimed Greece was in violation of UN charter and international law by turning back these refugees."

Amnesty International along with the American Civil Liberties Union are the best friends the jihadists ever had, two more leftist groups that are basically hiding behind the burqua of respectability.

Mike Schneider I agree with you that socialism is dying. The only problem is the institute of education in all western countries is so dominated by socialist thinkers that it is almost impossible to shake it from our cultures. What amazes me is that the most pro socialist people dont even have the most basic understanding of what socialism or capitalism are. I work with this clown from Germany and he was talking about how we must have balance between the two systems. He equated socialism with equality and workers rights and capitalism with exploitation. He talked about the US having the greatest discrepancy between rich and poor, of course this is bullshit. Its funny though that in Canada and in the US the provinces and states with the greatest discrepancy between rich and poor are the ones on the left coast. In my home province of BC we implemented socialism. The gap between rich and poor grew. The result people felt we must of gone to far to the right so lets implement more socialism. The process keeps on continuing. I honestly think that the most important battle in the world now is the second american civil war. The war of values between conservatives and moonbats. if the pinko leftists win there will be no one left to fight the growing threat of islam.

An isolated Islam can only implode provided two things: the non-Arab Muslim community remains isolated from the Arab world and to a lesser extent the Persian world (for the Shia). It would usher in a new jahiliyyah and the chances for a revivalist movement would become slim because of the lack of knowledge of Arabic. Posted by: igor

Igor

In that case, why are a lot of North African, non-Arab countries still Muslim e.g. Mali, Niger, Senegal, Gambia, and a whole lot of others? They are not Arab League members, they have been isolated (no petro dollars, no Jiziya, nothing). Why aren't they apostasizing en masse?

I disagree with the assumption that left to themselves, non-Arab Muslims will voluntarily quit Islam en masse. They know that they will face unrest if they try that, but that if they stay Islamic, there are no negative consequences. That's not going to change until the Infidel world changes it. Like China in Xinxiang, or the Uzbeg regime in Uzbegistan.

"Ramadan explains that in medieval times it made sense for the relatively small community of Muslims to see the world as divided into the House of Islam defending itself against the rest of the world – the House of War. Today, though, for the first time in their history, many Muslims are living as a minority in Europe, where they are free to practise their religion. This new situation requires new, relevant answers."

This is such blatant BS that I'm left wondering why this guy has even a marginal Western audience:

1. Poor Muslims originally had to defend their new religion "against the rest of the world" (including, supposedly, the marching Buddhist and Hindu and Janin aggressor armies)The truth: the armies of Muhammad were the real aggressors.

2. That said "aggression" against the original Muslims, who supposedly were only defending their religion, made the Muslims conquer the entire Middle East, North Africa and southern Europe in about a hundred years.

3. All the mirriad acts of aggression against the West and the Jews in our times prove Ramadan wrong; what we are seeing is the same old Islam acting out its hatred of the Infidels.

Good God, this Ramadan guy is so transparent in his deception that he must be using a poor taqiyya software.

"I disagree with the assumption that left to themselves, non-Arab Muslims will voluntarily quit Islam en masse..."
-- from a posting above

But if they are made aware of Islam as a vehicle for Arab imperialism, and if such examples of that imperialism, linguistic, cultural, economic, and political, are offered to them, if the Arab slave trade is made the subject of widespread discussion -- the slave trade past and present, if the Arab treatment of such non-Arab Muslims as Berbers, Kurds, and black Africans in Darfur, is presented again and again, so that it all begins to make sense, that can have its effect. But it will not happen unless non-Muslims make it happen; Muslims will not do it themselves, for obvious reasons.

There were a lot of disturbing things in the Tariq Ramadan programme on UK channel 4 tonight but one interesting bit of info was that the Danes have brought in a law banning anyone from marrying a non-Danish national until they are 28 and have £5000 in the bank. This sounds like a very good idea indeed. “Transcontinental” arranged marriages by the Muslim community in the UK run at an estimated 50 to 70% of all marriages. The government has consistently ignored this method by which the Bangladeshi and Pakistani communities in this country further inflate their numbers on top their high fertility rate. It might also stop the process by which either a Western educated male can ship in a virtually illiterate, housebound slave/brood mare who doesn’t speak the language and hasn’t learned her rights in this country while he can live a life of freedom around the town (quite a common situation). It’s also a way by which girls having a Western education can be dragged out of school and subordinated to a partly literate male with village values. It would also help stop the remarkably high rate of congenital illnesses caused by first cousin marriages, continued generation after generation. The last custom is more of a Hindu survival rather than Islamic but there’s something very Islamic about the way the woman is always blamed if babies are sickly or malformed: as often as not, she is discarded by her husband and nobody else will marry her. This country hasn’t even made forced marriages illegal because the don’t think such a law could be applied.

"No one has a divine right to enter into and settle in any other country"

That reminds me of a headline (or a subline) which appeared for several hours on Fox News today as they covered the May 1 immigrations protests today. The headline/(byline) asked the question:

"Does America have the right to control its borders?"

I had to laugh about the fact that this question sat there so prominently on the TV screen today. Was it supposed to be a trick question? I wasn't sure.

I guess the right answer is supposed to be No- America has no right to control its borders. Neither do Great Britain, Sweden, Germany, France, or the Netherlands.

But Mexico? Of course they have the right to control their borders. They block anyone from the south coming in and throw out any illegals on sight.

Japan? Of course they have a right to control their borders and are notorious for maintaining a 90%+ ethnic Japanese society.

Any Muslim state? Of course they have the right to control their borders. In fact they have the right to publicly demand (and enforce) the cleansing of "infidels" from their lands and the right to prevent any infidel influence there whatsoever.

China? Don't ask. The answer is obvious.

But the US, Canada, GB and western Europe - no - they have no right to control their borders. Their only obligation is to take in every single human being on the planet who wants to come and live there and if those immigrants can't cut it there it is the obligation of those westerners to work their butts off in order to provide for those immigrants no matter who those immigrants are, no matter if they wish harm to people into whose countries they have immigrated and no matter whether they have vocally stated their intentions to conquer those countries and sweep up those native inhabitants into violent revolutions.

"Does America have the right to control its borders?"

No and neither does Europe. And anyone who objects to that fact is a racist, a bigot, a xenophobe, an Islamophobe, and well, basically uncharitable and un-Christian.

Anyone wishing to deny those charges, please prove your goodwill and your worth as a human being tonight by leaving your front door wide open and inviting the first 10 comers, no matter who they are, to camp out in your living room. And please don't forget that your guests will also require breakfast in the morning.

Let's face it Europe will not deal with it's Immigrant problems. How can European Government governments be expected too when France's government is totally discredited, Germany has a left-right government that could collapse anytime and Italy has a weak status quo leftist government.

Change can only come when the native population's of those countries feel threatened. How can those population's feel that that their welfare is at stake when they refuse to accept only smallest bite of economic reform.

I am afraid that Europe will see more Urban riots like in France as those Native populations try to cling to the past.Indeed, as the Riots get more bloodier, the political establishment gets more discredited, the temption for extreme right movements grows. That is something no one will benefit from as Western Europe turns into the Balkans

Infidel Pride,

I never said Muslims will leave Islam en masse. If the Arabs disappeared tommorrow Islam would still remain with us for atleast another century but here's the difference: in a much weaker form. This weak Islam would give rise to more apostate versions of Islam and some of these Muslims would even be tempted to convert to other religions due to jahiliyyah. And I disagree with you that the Muslim Subsaharan countries are "isolated" from the Arab world. They are not. If they do not have close relations with the Arab countries they atleast have close relations with the North African countries which speak Arabic. Their imams must learn Arabic from somewhere. They don't have to be part of the Arab League at all. Many of them are part of the OIC and that's pretty much almost the same thing (just a watered down version of pan-Arabism). Restricting non-Arab Muslim access to Mecca, and to the Arab world in general (basically anywhere they can learn Arabic from the native population) would severely damage Islam and put it on life support. Add in the history lesson that Hugh suggests and it would make Islam very unpopular for them. It would take many years but an isolation from the West and a further isolation of the non-Arab Muslims from the Arab world would hurt Islam more than any war could.

I am German and first, I'd like to say that I find comments like that of bonncaruso, who's a guest in my country, rather conceited and arrogant, which is - sadly - not uncommon for americans. And of course, even if he has lived a few years here, he can't see the whole picture yet.
But anyway, regarding Ercan Yasaroglu, I think the german government is much too cowardly and afraid. Instead of granting asylum to people like him, they should rather grant it to women who flee from muslim countries. And they should offer the muslim women and girls here help to escape unwanted marriages instead of accepting foreign "traditions", which is simply idiotic. Only a few days ago, two girls in the 11th grade turned up to school in a burqa. Of course they were sent home straight away, but still, one of their families has connections to the King Fahd Academy, which is literally breeding muslim fundamentalists and regards women something between an animal and bacteria.
Those girls are forced to do that, like most of the many women we see on the streets here in hijabs, walking - their head bowed - 5 metres after their husbands. They need our help. And their husbands need a class in equality, because I'm so sick of them looking at me like I was a slut, just because I'm not ashamed to be a woman and because I look them in the eyes. Sometimes, I feel like giving them a nice blow around their swollen heads, just to show their women it can be done.
Melanie

By the way, I'm sick of americans who look down on me, too. I don't understand what makes them think they're better than us. Hey, if you don't like it here, feel free to go, we've got enough problems anyway. Not all americans are like that, of course, but I live near a us military base, and their attitude towards germans is just disgusting.
They should join those macho muslims and attend a class in good behaviour together.

melaniefromgermany said:

the King Fahd Academy, which is literally breeding muslim fundamentalists and regards women something between an animal and bacteria.

Nicely put, melanie.

We Americans can learn from you Germans, and you can learn from us. We have are national flaws, and you have yours. The main thing is that Germans and Americans are both free peoples, so we can learn from each other. Let's keep it that way. - Omar

thanks Omar, that's true

"Ramadan explains that in medieval times it made sense for the relatively small community of Muslims to see the world as divided into the House of Islam defending itself against the rest of the world – the House of War."
-- from a posting above

This is nonsense. From the very begining Islam divided the world between the House of War and the House of Islam, Dar al-Harb and Dar al-Islam. This started long before the "medieval times" in which there was a "relatively small commuinty of Muslims" (what is he talking about? By the Middle ages the Muslims conquered all of the Middle East and North Africa, much of Spain, Sassanian Persia, and into Central Asia and Hindustan -- what "relatively small community" does he have in mind? He is simply trying to pretend that these immutable notions of Dar al-islam and Dar al-Harb, that are central to Islam, and that express in geographic terms the more important division of all of humanity into Believer and Infidel, is merely the product of a particular time and circumstances, and if the circumstances and times change, so will that idea. It won't. It won't becuase the Qur'an and the Hadith cannot change, because what Muhammad represents, as the Perfect Man, uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil, will not change.

Ramadan is a snake, determined to keep Europeans confused, and to buy time -- time in which Muslims can settle deep within the Bilad al-kufr, the Lands of the Infidels, and multiply, and take advantage of every generous or foolish impulse of the Infidels, and exploit to the full not only their generosity (that welfare state), but also their highly developed system of individual rights which, while they flatly contradict both the spirit and letter of Islam, are eagerly exploited by Muslims in their attempt to turn the freedoms of the Western world to their own account, and thus ultimately to undo the beliefs in certain political and legal systems which guarantee such freedoms,and finally, to also exploit the ignorance of Infidels, at times almost wilful, about the content of Islam as a belief-system and the history of Islamic conquest and subjugation of many different kinds of non-Muslims, over 1350 years. Ramadan is counting on the ignorance, and suicideal innocence, of his Infidel listeners. He has been exposed in France; his current aim is to take his show to the English-speaking world. He has the United States in view; he must never be permitted to conduct his smooth propaganda here, but must be constantly exposed. Caroline Fourest did a good job in "Frere Tariq"; the book should be translated and widely disseminated. Ramadan is a cunning collaborator of the Muslim Brotherhood; in this respect, he has not fooled a fellow Egyptian, the journalist (now an Italian citizen) Magdi Allam. Read Allam's "lettera aperta a Tariq Ramadan" for more.

"The Muslim faith is a weak faith; proof has been made with the cartoons early this year."

No, bigcatgirl, it is a cult, virtually devoid of the sprirituality that characterizes what we normally think of as a "religion". A perfect example is the wonderfully hilarious link posted on another JW thread by the venerable Esmeralda (my apologies, I cannot find it just now). It spoke of the dilemma of some moslem 'astronaut' who, in an exquisite environment that would cause even an athiest to get in touch with his/her spirituality and commune with the Creator, would instead gyrate and spin 360 in all directions trying to keep his arse opposite some black rock on the distant earth. All rule and rigor, no spirituality.

if you mean the Jehova's witnesses by JW, they're are a dangerous cult, too

DP111:

My view, long held, is that we need to have a separation from the islamic world. As a start one needs to take muslims at their own words and agree wholeheartedly that there is indeed a dar ul islam and a dar ul harb, and for the good of humanity, infidels and muslims alike, it is better to live apart in respective dars.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. I called for an "Iron Veil" to be dropped between the two worlds in my book.

Some people think that this is draconian, and some people feel that it is not feasible. They are wrong! It is not draconian; rather, it is sensible. It will save lives on both sides. And it is also certainly feasible too. Difficult, perhaps; but feasible.

A couple of problems with putting up a wall to separate us from Islam:

1) what geographical boundaries would the wall entail? (Whether or not such a wall is literally physical or more creatively realized, the question still stands.)

2) even if we could wall Islam out of the non-Muslim world, this would not end Islam's expansionist belligerence: Islam's hunger will not be satiated until the entire world submits. And such a wall might catalyze Pan-Islamic unity against the Infidel to a degree far stronger than we have now.

Granted, such a wall would make it harder for Muslims to expand and it would make it easier for Infidels to defend themselves, this is true; but be prepared for such a wall to be the beginning -- not the end -- of more decades, more centuries of patient, protracted Muslim violence.

[Various and sundary blatherings about "immigration".]

"Immigration" is not the problem, or even *a* problem. -- *Assholes* are the problem.

Show me people bitching about "immigration", and I'll show you fools who've bought into socialist herd-control scenerios where everyone has a branding tag clipped into their ear as in the movie marquee for "THX-1138" (Google image-search). Such fantasizing will get them nowhere, of course, since the only entity they conceive powerful enough to do anything is government -- and governments are run by assholes too. Maybe not the same kind of assholes as Islamists, but assholes nonetheless.

When an asshole declares war on someone, for that one to sit around and waste his time hoping that a corrupt and collectivist government (a redundancy, to be sure) might, possibly, in some alternate universe where ice-cream never falls off the cone onto the pavement, take care of one's problem for oneself -- is to just advertise one's own impotence and ineptitude.

Have lately been immersing myself in Bat Ye'or's 'The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam; From Jihad to Dhimmitude.' The story is in many respects - though certainly not all - a dress-rehersal for Europe's future. The primary weapons of today are demography and immigration, though Islamic jihad can't be ignored, for what is terrorism?

Ms Ye'or paints a vivid picture. The period that fascinates me the most is the early Caliphate, both Umayyid and Abbasid. I find the Turkish period less interesting, I suppose because it came only at the end of the so-called 'Golden Age.'

I swear folks, put on a little mood music, preferably classical...something somber, to add poignancy to Ye'or's dispassionate scholarship, and you really get a sense, a spine-chilling feel for the horrors of the conquests, the incessant plunder of the defeated dhimmis, particularly those in the countryside, and the absolute insecurity that defined their existence, even during periods of relative tolerance.

The slow death of a civilization is a heart-wrenching thing to behold. Ms Ye'or details it in all its infamy. One only wishes there was more ancient literature available to her; I found myself wanting more.

She emphasizes the contribution of corrupt dhimmis, mostly Christian clerics, to the long decline. They used their influence as spokesmen for their respective flocks to curry favor with the Caliph and undercut their rivals.

Their counterparts today can be seen among the politicians and intelligentsia of the West, selling their souls and their civilization for cultural acceptance and on occasion, petrodollars. But more than anything else, it is insecurity, pervasive insecurity, particularly in Europe, that is corrupting us.

Not just the insecurity created by our cultural gate-keepers and their straight-jacket of political-correctness, but ultimately, that of the Muslim mob, of the fatwah, of the sword of terror. This is what is corrupting us, just as it corrupted the dhimmis who fell under the sway of their Muslim masters 13 and a half centuries ago. It's no wonder the vast majority ended up converting; attrition reaps its rewards.

I'm not sanguine these days folks. I don't think the West has the stomach for this clash of civilizations. My hope - and it is a slim one - is that someday soon Muslims will rise up and cast off the shackles of their mind-numbing creed.

Improbable? Yes. But no less so than the vain hopes of those advocating the mass expulsion of Muslims from the West.

if you mean the Jehova's witnesses by JW, they're are a dangerous cult, too

They are irritating, certainly, Melanie, and I'd prefer them not to knock on my door. But, so far as I know, they've yet to carry out any terrorist atrocities, don't aim to conquer the entire world through demographic conquest and war in order to subdue it, haven't announced plans for genocide, and have not carried out religiously-motivated gang rapes.

But maybe it was just a joke - and I guess we do need a few of those these days. JW is short for Jihad Watch.

Here you go, Infidel33:

When you're in orbit, which way is Mecca?

Television,

The "wall" that I have in mind is an economic wall (an end to foreign aid to Muslim countries) and a immigration wall (reforming immigration laws and enforcing them). Some physical walls may be necessary around Europe here and there to discourage the boat refugees. So far that is all we need. The Muslim world can try to expand to other parts of the world, but as long as it stays out of the West, it shouldn't be our concern.

The people who are saying isolation of the Muslim world is impossible and that we MUST make them accept democracy remind me of the open borders pundits on the news that are saying that we must grant Mexican illegals amnesty and make them love America because deporting them and building a wall is also impossible. No, it's not. Without any aid from the West, the dar-al-Islam will decline. They will be too busy worrying about the anarchy in their own backyard before they can think of expanding.

Cornelius:

I'm not sanguine these days folks.

Nor am I. I think the ignorant and venal political establishments in the West have hardly begun to grasp what they've done. And there are few signs of their even begining, even at this late stage, to reverse the policies that have brought our countries into such danger. I think, in the end, there will be civil war in many countries in the West - and elsewhere.

Melanifromgermany,

you are young and full of "Rotz-und Trotz"- try NOT to blame America and look around in your own country: You are like clones of each other with your envy & all that resentment towards the US.

I was talking of my own country, which you would have noticed if you were able to read

Ouch, yet another bad sign from Turkey.

A Turkish court has rejected an appeal by a prominent journalist against a ruling that found him guilty of insulting Turkishness.

Hrant Dink, an Armenian living in Turkey, was given a six-month suspended sentence last October.

He had written a newspaper article which addressed the mass killings of Ottoman Armenians nine decades ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4963586.stm

yes yojimbo (although I didn't want to talk to you anymore), that's true. There were demonstrations of turks in germany to protest against it. They called it lies and propaganda, really sad.

How can we prevent the fall of western civilization when we cant convince the citizens of the west that its something worth fighting for. I hate to say it but the mass immigration to the west even of non muslims is a threat. Not all groups but some really hate the west because of an inferiority complex and they refuse to hear any reasoning about this conflict. A case in point is the sikhs. In India they were the front line against Islam. Here none of them either know their history or are so bitter against the west they will support anyone who wants to destroy it. I have hindu friends who make a good point. Canada discriminates against hindus and allows sihks and muslims to come because they are seen to be the minority therefore they are oppressed in India. Not only this is not true but it is offensive to hindus. We bring in people from Africa. And our elite tells them all the misery in their continent is European made. It is natural for them to hate the west, we tell them too. Most hispanics in the states want nothing more but to be american, but as can be seen from the protests left wing groups are using this as an example of the race issue. If you really feel desperate you will make yourself believe anything if you think it will safe your life from one of gloom. And you have traitor white liberals who hate western civilization because they feel what ever deviant behaviour they have is considered deviant because of the teachings of western civilization. We have uneducated masses who are both ignorant and arrogant he think they know everything but consider themselves free thinkers because they read the newspapers and the headlines are taken as their own opinions. And there are the loser shit heads who care about nothing. And in the right we have some radical Christians who are fed up with the right who see muslims as fellow god fearing people and trust them more than liberals. Who in the west is going to fight the west. Out of the visible minorities second generation asians probably fit in the best and make the best citizens but its not their civilization. Not enough hindus in the west. African Americans are proud christians but their leadership is stuck in the left. Too many white trash. I honestly think western society is doomed. The only group that has fought back bravely has been the serbs. After the west did a number on them the only thing left is for us to put a pillow over the nations face as it sleeps and put it out of its misery. I guess that leaves Israel somehow I doubt it will be able to last any longer.

I have plans for the future I will be seeing the west in a museum in Japan. When I get older I know the people of Asia will appreciate the west. But outside of a museum it will be dead.

aww, well, p.o.canadian: It sounds a bit on the bitter side, same for melanie, "last thing we need in a war is emotions..." (comment by a still surving D-days tank commander at Omaha Beach.

well, emotions can prevent a war, though. It's lack of emotions that enable people to shoot at others, isn't it?

excuse me, but this type of reasoning is exactly what landed you in this mess in the first place.
"all this poor refugees.."

that doesn't make sense, cosmic. Refugees??

refugees=immigrants/poor islamic women, poor 3rd world gastarbeiter, poor victims of violence elsewhere....

when writing above of an Algerian leader and Tiers-Mondiste hero who argued that Islam could not survive if Israel survived, this was Ahmad Ben Bella.

See how brittle their self-esteem is? If the Jews whom they wish to see humiliated and degraded can defend themselves and overcome Muslims/Arabs, then all Islam is challenged and threatened.

As to similarities between fascism and Islam, the British-appointed Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, pointed out the Nazi resemblance to Islam in a speech to the Bosnian Muslim SS division [in Joseph Schechtman's The Mufti and the Fuehrer]. Also, Hitler learned about jihad from an Indian Muslim theologian, `Inayat Khan [al-Mashriqi]. See at link:
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2006/01/islamic-influence-on-hitler-can-it-be.html
Husseini, let's not forget, collaborated in the Holocaust. He urged the Germans to kill more Jews and faster.

Since the Arabs collaborated in the Holocaust, they have no right to compare themselves to the Jewish victims.

nooo, makes still no sense. I think you forgot the verb, cosmic.

well, my dear dogooder german girl, you seem to be on the p.c.thick side...
I simply meant that the germans have it coming because they are so p.c. emotional when it comes to plain logistic issues. That is why every poor beggar that you needed to help because he had it so bad sits now in Germany and it turns out that most of them are muslims and they are actually not that friendly as they said they would be...
and my dear melanie, i bet you are a brave tax-payer and you are somehow aware of it that the Deutsche Bundeswehr is on humanitarian grounds in Afghanistan, but maybe not aware that these 2400 Soldiers with all their hardware and ordnance actually protect the opium poppy-fields of certain druglords of the Pamir in the Hindukush...(ooops)
politicically correct emotional: if we destroy their poppies, then they will have no crop, that will probably lead to civil unrest, that would not be nice for the population, besides our soldiers could get hurt, so, it is better to protect the poppyfields.

Sofia saya "Another important fact,which we westerners should note is, our reproduction rate is falling year after year,giving way for the jihadi immigrants to fill up,who sire like pigs and they will be a majority in our country in the near future,making laws for us,and dictating our children's future. Before it is going to happen,we must stop rearing our pets, and in its place, beget our own babies.

But I have been saying this for time....the infedel prefers dogs to childrens, and all I got was a heapful of abuse. And why the "shortfall".....well it is DIRECTLY due to the rise and rise of power to womens in the West.

THEY may dress this as "freedom" but in reality when you look the bigger picture (remember from an inch away, a goat looks the same as a cow) what this has brought about is choas in your society together with start of the painful slow bleeding death ironically of the very society that womens want freedom from.....now THAT is true irony.

Islam through Allah SWT has foreseen problems like this and has put in checks and balances so that womens THEMSELVES know their place for the greater GOOD OF THE UMMAH....and ofcourse much less chaos.

You say "Each couple should have at least four to five babies. The governments should give a special allowence for those who have more babies,AND THIS FACILITY SHOULD BE ONLY FOR THE SONS OF THE SOIL,AND NOT FOR IMMIGRANTS".

Given the present circumstances, in the West this is Fraught with legal difficulty ....and I predict this will NEVER happen in the West.

Ofcourse the reverse (i.e.implemented in Islamic countries) could be instuted in a matter of months.....just do it & damn the consequences.

You say "Laws should be changed suitably,so that no immigrant cries "injustice'. Constitutions should be changed for this purpose".

What and erode the constitution that millions of Westerners & Amrikans died for...the same ones that YOU so enjoy.....never...Amrikans will kill each other before allowing that....what IRONY.....truly who can second guess the greatness or will of Allah SWT.

So while you spend the next 20 years discussing your birth rates and your constitution, remember
to continue giving state aid to local muslims who you will not give jobs to...so they sit at home and have more childrens...and then they require more aid....you may not like it...but truly Allah looks after his chosen.

Please don't fret too much...gradually your remaining childrens will get used to Sharia...won't like paying Dhimmi tax...and will convert.

Just imagine that....
no Dhimmi Tax....
no Dar al-harb....and Masha-Allah ......

divine PEACE.

lol, well at least you're polite.
No, I didn't know, and quite frankly I'm not sure what drugs you can make of poppy, but surely no hard drugs. But anyway, I dont want to pay taxes for that.
In my opinion, our army and government should support the social development there, like promoting women's rights, but they just don't care. They could just demand certain improvements for women as a provision for their presence and assistance. Instead, they guard poppy fields, shameful really.
But I disagree with you on the refugee issue. There are a lot of refugee from african countries, esp. nigeria, and other countries, and the problem with muslim refugees is that they collect their whole family. The wives are not allowed to work, so they can't integrate, most of them dont even speak german.
Instead of bashing refugees, we need better integration laws, like the requirement that everyone needs to speak german and that they adhere to our value, esp. reg. women's rights.

Melanie:
if you study the content of this excellent website you will sooner or later also have to admit that muslims cannot be integrated!

secondly: from poppy you make opium, from opium you make Heroine -I assume you know what this is?

Melanie:

"...quite frankly I'm not sure what drugs you can make of poppy, but surely no hard drugs."...

from poppies you make opium & from opium you make heroin.

Now you know.

oh god. that's disgusting

That's not really an argument against or for immigration, cosmic, but the other thing - they're fu.king criminals if they do that.

Naseem:
I feel offended when you recite your Allah-shit, so please refrain from it, people like to have reasonable ponderings here... not islamist bullshit!!!

Something to crack you up, from brother Muammar Kaddafi, (many spellings be upon him!)

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=20338_Muammar_Live&only

But at least he tells the truth!

Even the left is begining to see the light

http://eustonmanifesto.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=38

Christopher Hitchens did an excellent article in the Sunday Times.
"At last our lefties see the light"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2157754,00.html

Pissed off Canadian I think your comments about Sikhs are a bit off.
In the UK it is the Sikhs who stand up to the moslems in universities (where moslem intimidation is very common) also there are very well organised Sikh groups which activly ie physically fight islam.
Sikhs serve in all three branches of the forces.

regards

AI

yes, yes, yes, baaad Allah. Instead of blindly bashing islam, I just looked around and found the light in a new religion.
My new God is lovely Sun-God Mogababoochu (bless him), whom I worship every 40 seconds by bumbing my head three times on the table or anything that comes to hand.
At our Sunday services, of course, we go in the forest and use big trees. Afterwards, we hop through the bushes and bite off a mushroom without using our hands, to show our God we know no fear. The worshipping is fun though, but rather difficult to pray with one foot and hand on earth and the others stretched against the sky, to emphazise the connection of the light.
We're still looking for new believers, anyone can join. But you should love sunbathing, sunny drinks and have a good sun lotion.
Sunlight is essential. Without it, it would be night.

wrong place? wrong time?

CosmicAvenger (CA) says "Naseem: I feel offended when you recite your Allah-shit, so please refrain from it".

CA.....I am of Allah's chosen....can you refrain from eating....it is like this for me. At least I am conversing with you in English...your children's will have to learn Arabic and Urdu...the muslim language of choice.

They too will learn to rattle off MashaAllah, Alhumdulilla, InshaAllah, "assalamau-laikum waa rahamatullah" etc with ease.

The quicker you learn...the easier the integration to Islam....you too can be blessed by Allah SWT.

Infidel 33 and Yojimbo, this is more on the same story.

When wieghless which way is up?

They too will learn to rattle off MashaAllah, Alhumdulilla, InshaAllah, "assalamau-laikum waa rahamatullah" etc with ease.

Exactly the point I made in the link above. To rattle off with ease is not prayer, is not communication with the Lord, a constant awareness of his presence, thankfulness for His grace, and listening for His word.

My children will never call such a farrago prayer.

Thanks for the link, Granny Weatherwax.

One would think that even the thought of going into space ought to arouse a kind of perspectival shift. One would think the Earth itself would be seen to be just one speck among many towards the edge of one among many galaxies -

Our solar system is at the edge of a spiral arm called the Orion Arm, and is about two-thirds of the way from the center of our galaxy to the edge of the starlight. The Earth is the third planet from the sun in our solar system of nine planets.

- and hence any particular place on it is of no particular importance - not more so than anywhere else. You'd think it would arouse the thought that, if there is a God, He must be everywhere and nowhere, and really it doesn't matter which way you're pointing when you pray.

But no.

yes yojimbo (although I didn't want to talk to you anymore), that's true.

I'm not sure what prompted that. But I'll try to watch what I say. It's not always easy, because these are disturbing times.

BTW, everyone, France is reviewing its immigration laws:

The French parliament is to discuss whether to approve a new immigration bill which would make it harder for foreigners to work in France.

However:

Church organisations argue the bill discriminates against the poor and is fundamentally "un-Christian".

I think one could file the attitude of the church organizations under "Turkeys vote for Christmas".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4964472.stm

If Naseem is muslim, then I'm Swedish. Which means I'm as good as muslim.

I actually think Naseem is not muslim, first off he would have been fiercely offended by my calling Islam bullshit, and those phrases our kids are supposed to rattle in prayer are no prayers at all.
Naseem: a salem alaikum ! = Good Bye

I am not sure that the low birthrate in Europe is relevant as to why some politicians believe that we need more immigrants. Unemployment in the EU runs at an average of around 8% and retraining and reskilling programmes are ineffective and under funded at best or just not there at worst.

What's even more disturbing is that anybody over 45 years of age who becomes unemployed usually doesn't show up in figures. A lot of jiggery-pokery goes on with unemployment figures. In the UK there could be as many as half-a-million people over the age of 45 who are not included in the figures.

Many older people trying to find a job simply can't. They are viewed by employers as too old after 45! The loss of skills that this type of ageism brings about must be huge. There was a recent TV programme on this subject in the UK which I watched and I was shocked by the cavalier dismissal of older people despite the evidence that they make better employees than the young. I was also shocked by the blatant discrimination against the olds. It doesn't belong in a free society.

As long as we don't retrain unemployed people and dismiss older people then we will have a labour shortage. More immigration is not the answer. We need to help the plenty of people we already have back into the work that most of them desparately want.

I don't understand why our politicians want more immigration but I'm beginning to suspect that the reason has nothing to do with labour shortages and everything to do with some private agenda I know nothing about. I know lots and lots of people but I don't know one amongst them who approves of moslems or immigration. I don't think our politicians are listening to us.

Dominic.

In the end it comes down to this stark choice: either the West has the will to save itself from Islam or it does not. If the patently obvious ambitions of the Muslim world to rule the non-Muslim world are not recognised and reacted against very soon it will simply be too late. I used to wonder, reading both history and the archives of English newspapers from 1933 to 1939 how it was that the leaders of Europe, the US, and even Stalin in the USSR, could not see from 1934 or 1935 onwards that Hitler wanted war and wanted an expanded Germany with an empire (just as a dynamic Bismark deliberately sought and won wars against Denmark, Austro-Hungary and France in the years that led up to the unification of Germany in 1871). It seems obvious to me that Ahmadinjad is the new Hitler and Jack Straw the British Foreign Secretary is the new Neville Chamberlain. How niave Condoleeza Rice is I am not sure, but nothing she has ever said on Islam that I have read makes me have any confidence in her judgement - let us just hope she isn't the next President unless something wakes her up to the nature of Islam pretty dramatically. Some pundits put forth the view that Iran being a Shia Muslim country it will never win the hearts and minds of the world's majority Sunni Muslims. On the contrary Iran has everything going for it to emerge as the first real Islamic superpower and once that happens - when it's absorbed the Shia crescent across Iraq, the Gulf, Tajikistan, the Shia areas of Saudi Arabia and down through Alawite-ruled Syria into the fractured Lebanon we'll see a another 'Persian' empire. When Tariq Ramadan talked his slippery and risible talk about a Muslim 'reformation' on British Channel4 TV last night he was discussing something that Islam is not equipped to carry through, but there is - in theory - no reason why the Shia branch of Islam rising on the wings of a conquering Iranian empire could not win over the poor masses of the Sunni world to its cause. To conclude: either the West has the will to act while it has time or the lights of Western civilisation will be snuffed out by the Barbarians.

I keep hearing this we need more immigrants for the low birthrate thing with huge amusement and some anger. We bring in people who think they should all be merchant bankers and spend all the time taking dole.

Maybe its because we want to have people who will look after us when we are too old, Muslims, hmmmm, who are perhaps the most unsuitable person to look after old infidels who can't defend themselves, they will certainly find a quick and efficient way to look after us elderly Europeans, like looking after a sheep for ramadan I would think, and Allah the moon god as laid down by the leader of the cult knows best...

melaniefromgermany~

You should read THIS from a thread here a day or two ago.
This muslim predicted the current situation in The Netherlands, but it applys to Germany also.

http://www.childrenofmillennium.org/heroes/downfall.htm

Thank you, Granny. That's the one I was looking for. It has brought many chuckles!

"childrens will get used to Sharia...won't like paying Dhimmi tax...and will covert..."
-- from a posting by Naseem above

A nice example of a Muslim poster making clear that she understands perfectly the reason why, over time, many non-Muslims converted to Islam. It was not because of the superior truth of Islam. It was, rather, that in order to avoid the onerousness of the demands made on non-Muslims, and above all the Jizya (the "Dhimmi tax" as she forthrightly calls it), some became Muslims. That should put paid to that ridiculous assertion by Muslim apologists of that misleading phrase "there is no compulsion in religion." Of course there is. The Jizyah is compulsion enough.

Daffersd sez:

"...Maybe its because we want to have people who will look after us when we are too old, Muslims, hmmmm,.."

Hahahha! Another twist to euthanasia! I would have have thought that we can handle that ourselves, don't you think?

Why would we trust the Mohammedans with our exit-strategy?

Question for Naseem....who's going to take care of all you muslims if the world becomes islamic? Besides the fact the free world supports your butts, after you've bred yourselves into billions...who's going to feed you? Who's going to develop the next vaccines for the masses when there is a plague or strain of something deadly? Islam doesn't allow muslims to think outside the box.

The muslims have crapped in their own spaces. If they would have just stayed in their own little world, and not made much noise and behaved, the free world would have continued to give support, help feed you, and taken care of things when Mother Nature gave her worst. Muslims would have still been pampered and we would all be happy. But, no. Muslims had to bite the hand that feeds them.

Borg--

Rasoel's (Zoka F.'s) book needs to be reprinted. Not just in Dutch or in English, but in a dozen languages.

cosmic avenger you wrote "aww, well, p.o.canadian: It sounds a bit on the bitter side, same for melanie, "last thing we need in a war is emotions"

So what you are saying what is going to win a war is no emotion. People not caring and people not having a cause. I see. That makes sense.

I think I might agree with the poster who says Naseem is not really a Muslim. What she says in these latest posts is so nakedly disturbing and without any phony sugar-coating of taqeyya. Wouldn't a Muslim be more likely to construct his/her message to avoid alarming people, to lull them to sleep? Instead, Naseem openly presents herself as a someone with a will to soul-suicide for herself and the rest of us -- in other words, someone who cares not at all about freedom, her own freedom, her own unique spark, but wants submersion in a form of collectivist conformity and obedience to her fears of those she deems authorities. If she is for real, she is, in my admittedly fallible opinion, a somewhat ill person, no offense intended Naseem and sorry if I mischaracterize you. But this is about dialog so I give you my perception, for whatever it's worth.

If for real, Naseem has tried to suppress her own spark of uniqueness in these latest posts, and presented herself speaking somewhat like a zombie, mouthing as though in a trance the phrases that enclose her in a circle of self-enchantment. And don't get me wrong, Naseem. I don't say there is no good in your experiences of Islam and Muslims. I only say that you allow that to blind you to the mistaken and anti-human aspects of the Muslim belief-system, aspects you have well-represented, I think, in your recent post. If you are for real, I hope your mind will escape these cruel and delusory beliefs of yours (as I see them). - Omar

Nassem is not a muslim in any conventional sense of the word. She poses as a muslim of the Ahmadiya kind which, as we know, is not regarded as part of islam.

So why does she do what she does. Nasseem is frighteneed by the inroads that islam is making in the West, as they are a direct threat to her and her family's wellbeing. She thus goads us all in the hope that we will do something.

I was impressed by the way Nasseem got Mohideen to accept that she was a muslima, flattered him for his great wisdom, coyly led him up the garden path, and there dealt him a blow from which he has still not recovered.

No sign of Mohideen since that fatal encounter of his with Nasseem.

Muslim women only swimming in Swindon?
http://www.bnp.org.uk/reg_showarticle.php?contentID=889

South West Regional Voices has today received the following communication from a supporter living in Swindon.

A supporter writes:

I have just been to the Broome Manor golf club in Swindon. This is a council owned facility. You have a candidate standing in the Gorse Hill ward in Swindon.

On the notice board at the golf club (and presumably at other council owned facilities in Swindon) is a notice advertising "women only" swimming classes. I was a little surprised, as I would have thought that this was a breach of the sex discrimination act. I read on. It said that the classes were for women who could not normally access mixed session classes. This seemed odd, as I couldn't see why any women could not access mixed classes. It then said that the instructor and lifeguard would both be female. Curiouser and curiouser. It then started listing clothing that women could wear (bizarre!) Full length swimsuits, leggings and T-Shirts (why not boiler suits and balaclavas) ......and shalmar kameeze. It then made sense. These classes are being organised for Muslim women whose religion forbids them to take part in such immodest activities as mixed swimming classes.

I am not sure whether religion allows them to be exempt from the sex discrimination act but whether it does or it doesn't, the fact is that council taxpayers in Swindon are being deliberately excluded from these classes to suit Muslim women (or so it would seem to me). It is interesting that SBC are offering this facility to Muslim women. Perhaps they should also be arranging to build women only mosques so that women can worship without offending Muslim men who have men-only mosques.

WC

WC, in my opinion only-women classes don't criminate men. I didn't even realize men could take offence. Many women feel more comfortable without men watching them. In my village we have women-only swimming and sauna hours too and I use those and mixed classes, although I've never seen a muslim woman in neither.
What I don't understand is, if there are only women, why still those leggings and that bathing costume in which no one can really swim?
However, muslimahs have so many problems in their life I guess, from childhood on they are told they are inferior, which is a crime really, and they have to get along with a husband, who might not even love them and looks down on them.
Why grudge them some hours of enjoyment and the opportunity to talk to each other and support each other without their husbands watching?

Yojimbo

"hence any particular place on it is of no particular importance - not more so than anywhere else. You'd think it would arouse the thought that, if there is a God, He must be everywhere and nowhere, and really it doesn't matter which way you're pointing when you pray."

All religions have sacred spaces; the shift in cosmic perspective has not altered the centrality of the altar and of the Eucharistic table; on the contrary, it has incorporated them in this "cosmic liturgy."
What's tragic (and comical, let's say it) in Islam, as Granny says, is this mechanical reproduction and insistence on the form of acts devoid of content. It's too ritualistic. Plus the utter literalism: Mecca has to be really Mecca, and not a symbol that can substitute the geographical one when given alien, shifting coordinates. You can have a liturgy with a simple cross anywhere in the universe. Not Islam. The scholars at that laughable conference are deluding themselves (God how I wish I had been a fly on the wall in the lecture hall/mosque!)

To DP111:
Interesting point you make about Naseem. You are referring I think to when she played a sort of Socrates with Mohideen. She was like Socrates in that she perhaps only pretended innocence and ignorance and a desire to be taught, and in that pose she succeeded in teaching Mohideen a lesson, by using her apparent innocence to sucker Mohideen into having to face an absurdity in the Koran or Islam for which he had no answer (though I don't at the moment remember what the absurdity was). So it seems she was employing socratic irony (with an added layer of guile). Yes there seems to be something funny going on with "Naseem," and your very plausible and perceptive hypothesis might be the best explanation, DP111.
- Omar

Peoples, DP111, Omar....

I think perhaps you may be giving me too much "credit" for something that comes to me naturally.

You see it is difficult for an Ahmadi muslima to talk to a brother of the Deen (Mohideen in this case) on a "one-to-one" even base in Pakistan.

No such conversation like these can take place with an Ahmadi in safety, but it is was for me a test that I have done a few times before whereas this may have been Mohideen's 1st taster.

I love talking to muslims and I have to respect Mohideen for this. Compare him to that no hoper "moslemguy" who Mr. Eisenhund quite rightly whipped.

You can get interesting muslems and I recommend that you you "gently" tease out their REAL thoughts as opposed to them hiding behind Sura and Hadith.

This is why I got upset that Patroit4 answered my questions addressed to "moslemguy".....I didn't get to hear from the real "moslemguy".....Patroit4 forewarned him!

I rarely hide behind Hadith....and fire it straight from the "horse's mouth" in a manner of speaking.

Many peoples don't like my direct approach....but I promise you .....you will not get many muslims who will tell you like it is.

My position is clear...pristine Islam is the way forward for the world...and it is stong enough and holy enough for this....there IS no need to sugar coat what Allah SWT has ordained for us all.

Divine Peace and Jilbabs be with you!

to pissedoffcanadian:

"the last thing you need in a war is emotion", this statement was made on tv by a still surving tank commander from D-day at Omaha Beach (Normandy), and I agree with him as he described being in combat, and as his best friends and comrades were gunned down all around him he could not afford emotion and maybe only for a moment cry after his friends, he had to become a machine obsessed with the objective, if he had staggered in disbelief only once he would have been killed too. After all D-day is history, and the objective has been reached. They won the war.
Of course did these people have emotions, but simply not on the battlefield.

Naseem:
pristine Islam is the way forward for the world, ..yeah, over the cliff!

p.s.=mistake:
this tank commander is not surving, but still surviving..

Islam through Allah SWT has foreseen problems like this and has put in checks and balances so that womens THEMSELVES know their place for the greater GOOD OF THE UMMAH....and ofcourse much less chaos." posted by Naseem

Naseem, this is why I suspect you are really a man. No self respecting woman would utter those words.

My question is how, given a choice anyone can choose to worship Islam? Why is Western culture and society, freedoms not more valuable to human beings than the Koran? No seems to be able to answer this.