"Her cries — 'Ah, ah, ah' — can be heard above the 'Allahu akbar' intoned by the holder of the mobile phone"

Kindly replace "God" with "allah". No god I know will have his followers do this.

Why can't we leave them alone ? They are confusing us with their "sects" and "shia" and "sunni" and "iraqi". I am horrified by this detail of a murder by demonic muslims, but they murder in this way daily. They have murdered so since the madman mohammad started this. And I know that the journalist was drilled when she was alive. The muslims have only one use of a dead body, that to dismember it. Drilling a dead body is useless exercise to them. They drilled her when she was still alive. Have no hopes when dealing with mohammad's men .

Arjun,

That issue has been discussed many, many times on this site.

Clearly the God of the Qur'an is not the same as the God of the Bible, from a theological standpoint.

However, Arabic-speaking Christians used the word "Allah" for God before the advent of Islam, and continue to do so.

I generally try to use the word "Allah" for the God of Islam in order to avoid confusion. In this post I didn't, because the Times translation used "God" and I wanted to make precisely the point that you make: no God would really command this.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

I put this in its correct place..my apologies to those who made the mistake of reading it twice :)

There is no death but painful death for these people who are usually too cowardly to show their faces.

I could laugh at the fact that these heroes who are "not afraid to die in the name of allah" are simply too yellow to show their faces on their idea of a fun video.

What a masterly example of islamic morality and Muslim heroism!!!

Perhaps we should start to change our criminal laws to give the Muslims that which they seek: a separate criminal code where the "eye for an eye" idea is applied to all who attempt jihad by such barbarity.

from another book almost always ignored today.he that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity.he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.you rape and murder for satan not god.

American's proper attitude toward islam is one of utter contempt. At the time of our invasion, we should have destroyed every mosque in Iraq - and anyone foolish enough to protest.

When the US Army occupied Korea at the end of World War II, it burned every Japanese Shinto Shrine in that country - to the ground. Now, that was clarity.

Unspeakable depravity.

The cries of allah akbar is enough to convince me that Islam is vile beyond belief and needs to be eradicated. Yet Islam's appeasers will continue to make excuses for this horror and for the countless others that have happened and will continue to happen. "Oh but, the Bible is violent too", they'll whine, as if that has anything to do with anything. "Oh but, this is only a tiny minority of extremists who've been driven to such depravity because of Israel and the US!" But, but, but!

But nothing! This is not a religion. It is worse than Nazism.

Sickening.

Havoc, I agree with you completely. What is the attitude of iraquis to the allied forces? They stay in their locality in silence. What would be our attitude? Having arms and ammunition, we shall fight, not having arms and ammo, we would have fled to a safer region. After all, the allied forces are not that much in number as to cover the whole of iraq. But, the mo's stay and pretend to be innocent civialians, take all the food and aid,and strike when they feel like it.Like at the British chopper killing all and having a party at the end of it.The allied forces have their hands tied cos of the dhimmi media (oh poor iraqis dying by the hand of the white soldier) and the politicians. Our boys could have been out of Iraq in 1 month flat after carpet bombing it and no rehabilitation b***.

"We may never know who killed Bahjat or why," says the Times Online article. Followers of Islam killed that woman, of whatever sect. If the media in the US can take time out from the Natalee Holloway story and Tom Cruise's baby stories, maybe they can devote some time to writing and talking about Bahjat and other journalists who risk their lives every day, and sometimes lose their lives, reporting the real stories of living in Islamic countries.

You decry the fact that Muslims "are streaming into Western countries, by the design and forethought of Western leaders", and declare this to be "insane". You are correct, of course, but at least in the United States the decisions have been made. Both the Republicans and the Democrats, the President and the Congress (Specifically, the Senate) have made it clear that the borders will not be secured. In fact, the centerpiece of the "immigration reform" effort in the Senate is a gigantic increase in the number of Muslims, particularly Arab Mulims, admitted legally to the United States.

The battle, such as it was, is over. You lost. The governing elites in the United States have made their decision. Between one and two million Muslims from the Middle East, Africa, and South Asia will be admitted to the United States each year. Many more will continue to enter illegally across the undefended borders.

It is time to face reality and acknowledge that the United States will be an Islamic state and that Sharia will be the law of the land.

Allahu akbar.

"Perhaps we should start to change our criminal laws to give the Muslims that which they seek: a separate criminal code where the 'eye for an eye' idea is applied to all who attempt jihad by such barbarity."

The strongest argument against legal torture is that it affects the society that tortures. We should restrain people like Ibrahim Hooper (for whom sharia is the goal), stop the immigration, keep other muslims under surveillance and remove them when possible. But domestic brutality will come back to us, just as some of the valiant soldiers who went to Iraq will come back a bit unhinged by their day-to-day experiences there.

This is unbelievable. I just read the full article in The times and I'm overcome with incredible sadness. To think what this woman went through in the last minutes of her life is a profoundly disturbing experience that connects us all in horror of what these people are doing. There is something that bonds us on this planet, whatever our colour, race, religion but these guys demonstrate something that no human can begin to understand. This is a destruction of humanity, civilization, values, the idea that we can feel and everything humanity stands for. This can't go on. We have got to do something. We cannot accept this. There is no way I billion plus muslims can support this, we have crossed a threshold. We must take care of this now.

This women was truly a brave person, Iraq has lost the hope for the futur good of their country. the followers of the Koran continues to kill their own faster than any other cause, yet these same muslims will go on and blame the West, AMericans, and Jews. they need only look at their koran for the answers.

My stomach churned when I read about this woman's ordeal. Unbelievable. Demonic. Allah must be Satan himself.

You can put a savage in 21st century clothes but he's still a savage. Muslims, with their love of snuff films are evil. The very nature of their death cult (I refuse to dignify it by calling it a religion)breeds sciopaths. Islam has no redeeming features.

I am not an advocate of torture even with the types who killed the journalist but I wouldn't say no to finding them and killing them on sight.

I have never appreciated my country and it's people more than I do now.

It makes me so sad that this happens. There's not a lot more I can say really.

It reminds me of the violence in Rwanda. In interviews a couple of years later with people who committed the violence they say that "the devil walked this land at that time - we were under a spell"

I think this is happening in Iraq. The devil is walking the land and people are acting and behaving acording to his doing, with no humanity left in them.

####

In agreement with arjun.sevak this happens on a daily basis all across Iraq.

And I haven't a clue what the solution is...

However, Arabic-speaking Christians used the word "Allah" for God before the advent of Islam, and continue to do so.

I generally try to use the word "Allah" for the God of Islam in order to avoid confusion.

About five years ago, I attended a Roman Catholic mass. The priest serving the mass said during the homily that he was an expert on the subject of islam since he had lived in the Middle-East for years.

He told his followers that Catholics and islam worshiped the same god; i.e. allah and the god of the bible were one in the same.

Since that time, I have heard many Roman Catholic lay persons express the same thing; however my reading of Catholic Church history suggests the opposite.

I have not set foot in a Catholic Church since five years ago, but I wonder if the official stand by this church toward allah is changing since a lot of Catholics (Spencer excluded) seem to imply that is has i.e. islam and the god of the bible are one in the same diety.

If it has not officially changed, may I politely suggest to anyone of that faith that clarification of the issue needs to be addressed?

It is important, no?

witness

There are some posts recently re the Pope's books and address' and the Australian Catholics Cardinal who clearly know the god of Islam is not the God of the Bible, although I haven't seen them explicitly say this.

I don't know why there is the reticence to say so - why do people want to link the Judao Christian God with the Islamic god ??

why do people want to link the Judao Christian God with the Islamic god ??

I believe that in the case of the priest that I mentioned, they think that by incorrectly linking the two dieties, they can some how promote peace.

anyone with a brain can see the difference between the God of the Christians who does not want you kill period, only the satan worshiping allah can give those instructions to the war monger muhammud and his brain dead followers!

I have yet to see US media give such a detailed description of the depravity these lunatics are capable of. Instead, horrific executions are blandly summarized with insipid phrases such as "found murdered...body was beheaded...possible evidence of torture," etc. I think Americans, particularly the mooonbats, need to read, hear and perhaps even see the sickening truth in all its graphic detail. Maybe that will wake them up.

No, no, no. Mustn't do that. It could scare the kiddies. Hafta shelter them from the real world as long as possible, otherwise they might grow up hatin' the people that are out to kill or subjugate them. Wouldn't want that to happen.

the problem is no one will admit evil lives.until we face the fact that the koran is a book that tells people to commit evil in the name of god.we are doomed.woe to you who call evil good,and good evil.

This Iraqi death squad shows far more than just a love of death: by the actions described here, these individuals show a love of pain, suffering, blood, gore, fear, and pure, unadulterated, merciless terrorizing -- for the so-called enemy, of course, not for themselves.

Any belief system associated with these actions is far removed from what the world commonly understands as religion. But if I were unfortunate enough to be a member of the religion invoked by these sadists, I would run far and run fast to distance myself from any association with them.

The world has waited for "moderate" Muslims to patrol their own religion, to rein it in, to curb its excesses. Nothing along that line is evident yet, and time is running out.

More tortured murder victims were found today in Iraq -- the death squads have been working overtime.

A mass exodus from Islam of Muslims, sickened by the continual litany of atrocities carried out daily, inspired by the Qu'ran, is the only thing now which can halt the spread of this cancer.

The next time I come across somebody that tells me that these barbarians are the exception to the Islamic rule of peace, I'm going to break his jaw.

I nearly posted this elsewhere this morning but it is here now and I am glad to know that so many people saw it, and were so affected by the description of her death.
Don't let anyone call this an "execution" or even an "assassination".
This was, is, organised sadism, killing for pleasure, which no true soldier does.

Fireangle: I am not an advocate of torture either. However, what these two "big strong wimps" did to this woman, I think they should be drawn and quartered, as opposed to being mercifully shot and killed on the spot.

1) Islam is not a religion; it is a cult.
2) The only good Muslim is an apostate Muslim.
3) Muhammad was not a prophet; he was a psychopath.

I have only read a little more than half of the Qur'an so far, and even that has been accomplished in fits and starts. (No easy task!) However, notwithstanding my admittedly limited knowledge, I am curious if anyone else has considered the very real possibility that Muhammad was in fact suffering from some sort of organic brain disease. It is well established that certain types of lesions in particular areas of the brain can result in sociopathic and/or psychopathic behavior. In addition to the many examples of Muhammad's irrational ideations and violent behavior, there are numerous instances of visions, which could be interpreted as hallucinations. I also recall at least one passage that describes Muhammad being sick with some kind of fever that caused his body to shake uncontrollably. Sounds like a seizure to me.

I know I can't be the first one to wonder about this, and I apologize in advance for my ignorance. I would like to know what your thoughts are, Mr. Spencer.

This is the Religion of Peace and Tolerance and of Respect Toward Women. We must'nt be islamophobic.

we are in a battle and there are only two sides,those who fight for every thing good in our world.or those who commit or make excuses for these evil brutal animals.chose a side and fight,there is no grey area.wake up....pick a side and fight.

allah is Satan.
She had nine drill holes in her right arm and 10 in her left, he said. The drill had also been applied to her legs, her navel and her right eye. One can only hope that these mutilations were made after her death.
Who but the evil one would take pleasure in such acts?

IrishEi,

"Muhammad was in fact suffering from some sort of organic brain disease"

Its a point that's been discussed quite a few times. Appratenly after one of his seizures he would then start to recite new parts of the Koran, which were then transcribed.

It was during these seizures that he was being spoken to by Gabriel (so they say).

I believe Mohammed a powerful, charismatic, but insane man; he developed a religion cult around him with a doctorine of absolute obeyance on pain of death. The doctorine was there to prevent questioning of his obviously deranged ideology, so that he retained earthly power.

Islam still has the same ideology - the desire for total power and domination, on pain of death.

The muslims do the halal on all animals. It is not hilal it is halal. This means to cut the throat slowly until the animal bleeds to death.They will not eat any other meat. It is this halal that they did on 9/11,and to Daniel Perl,and to the contractors,and other media people,Hindu engineer Suryanarayan in Afghanistan 4 days back,and this reporter whose video we got today. I am trying to find out more details about this,but expect more such deaths.The Western world after the Crusades was sheltered from muslims and I have been writing to the FBI since 9/11 about how cruel these people are.They are DEMONS.When muslims started killing Hindus in the year 1947 for their own country (They got it.It is Pakistan carved out of the Punjab state of India) people used to poison or kill their daughters lest they get into the hands of muslims.We think that this is extreme,but look at what happened to this reporter.That is why crying fathers killed their daughters and went swords in hands to fight the muslim mobs to death. I have photographs of village wells filled with the bodies of Hindus. Then the muslims got to the railway stations,killed all they could,cut their bodies in pieces,and filled the train compartments with them and sent them to India.All this is well documented.If you want,you can buy a book by several British authors who were not happy with British Army not given the orders to save massacres.One million Hindus were killed.Eight million made it back to India.To kill one million,there were no armies but the muslims Hindus lived and worked and traded with.They were all ready to butcher.And they did.

why must our voice be so small?...we must find a way to be heard above the den of evil...or live with the fact we saw ww3 coming and did nothing to stop the madness.how many more must die?...do we die like sheep?...or fight the evil?

Mazztr:
Thanks for the info.

Yet in spite of this revealing information, there are still more than a billion people who follow this cult. Most other cults fizzle out at a couple or ten thousand or so (Moonies, Jim Jones.) As explained in Mr. Spencer's book, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam, part of the reason can be attributed to the fact that many Muslims cannot understand the Qur'an because they do not speak Arabic. But, 1.3+ BILLION???

Baffles the mind.

Jen

"A mass exodus from Islam of Muslims, sickened by the continual litany of atrocities carried out daily, inspired by the Qu'ran, is the only thing now which can halt the spread of this cancer."

You know that's not possible. It will never happen. To many people, especially Muslims, the loss of their religious identity is more scary than any other fear, including death by torture. Can you imagine the almost unbearable anxiety of stepping outside the framework of the total regulation of your life, from manner of clothing to the way to wipe your ass?

There are those who can't be free, you know. They prefer to live like slaves. It's safer, less taxing on the brain. Dostoevsky knew this.

Ovidius,

Millions of Muslims in Africa are converting to Christianity. So it's not hopeless.

President Bush, this is your relegion of peace...
___

A large man dressed in military fatigues, boots and cap approaches from behind and covers her mouth with his left hand. In his right hand, he clutches a large knife with a black handle and an 8in blade. He proceeds to cut her throat from the middle, slicing from side to side.

Her cries — “Ah, ah, ah” — can be heard above the “Allahu akbar” (God is greatest) intoned by the holder of the mobile phone.
___

The true one loving God has taken her to Heaven to be with him.

God's plan for the vileness that is islam has been laid and his vengance through the man will be utter devistation against islam and its vile followers.
___

President Bush, there will be one vistor, either America and the rest of the civilized world or the vileness that is islam. You need to decide and take this war to islam.

The Texican.
Freedom, the only choice at any cost and the cost will be immense.

I am so livid that mistakes sometime happen in my posts.

President Bush, there will be one VICTOR, either America and the rest of the civilized world or the vileness that is islam. You need to decide and take this war to islam.

God save America and world from this vilness that is islam.

The Texican.
Freedom, the only choice at any cost and the cost will be immense.

As much as the videotaped evidence sickens me, I might yet have to start posting links for the world to consume regularly so that we never forget what montrous acts are done in the name of "Allah."

The murder of Nick Berg is forever burned into my memory, and it's one memory I would like to be rid of, but until this conflict is over, I see no way I can responsibly run away from such truth, no matter how vile it might be to recall.

Its typical Islam, and Islam is a byword for unspeakable savagery, cruelty, depravity, barbarity and backwardness. If you want a microcosm of what an Islamic planet means - THIS IS IT! We've had enough of politically-correct shilly-shallying from our media and our politicians. Lets say it as it is. Drilling holes into bodies whilst still alive and slashing throats. That is Islam. Over the years, this savage death cult must have claimed the lives of at least two or three billion innocent souls and wrecked many more lives, far more than any other religion, institution or cult, and probably as many as all the other religions and cults combined over the last 5,500 or 6,000 years. This cult is uniquely barbaric and savage. It is far worse than the Aztec death cult. What is worse? Having your still-beating heart cut out to please the Gods Aztec-style, or having holes drilled into you before being finished off with your throat slashed? No known cult or religion has created human suffering on such a monumental scale as Islam, and there looks to be no end in sight to it. It is time to stop making excuses for that brutal death cult, which regards murder as something to be rewarded with virgins in Paradise. Little wonder Winston Churchill said “The religion of Islam above all others was founded upon the sword … Moreover it provides incentives to slaughter, and in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men – filled with a wild and merciless fanaticism.” If we lose to the Islamists, it means being ruled by them, and this sort of barbarism and sadism happening on a global scale right down to your own neighbourhood. And the frightening prospect for many European countries is that this nightmare is merely decades away on current population trends. France is 11% Muslim now, but birth rates point towards it being over 40% Muslim within 50 years. And we have seen enough Muslim violence there over the past few months to know what that means, plus the weak-kneed response of the French authorities in the face of that violence, which tells France's Muslim population that their Government is totally gutless. If this can happen when Muslims make up 11% of the French population, then what unspeakable horrors await when they make up that dreaded 40%, 50% or 60% of the population? What use would our World War II sacrifices be if this eventuality comes to pass and newborns will be born into this sort of Hades through no fault of their own, and all because we produced a soft and decadent Kumbaya-singing PC brigade from the 1960s onwards?

Norseman -

Americans are ruled with the consent of the governed. That consent may be withdrawn at any time. There is a large and growing fraction of Americans who find the presence of muslims on our soil inappropriate - to say the least. That is part of what President Bush's collapsing support is about.

If I were a muslim in America, I would not make any long-term plans. I would definitely not invest in real estate.

tigger2005

You may be right, but I believe most of them convert from animism, not Islam.

Good old-fashioned hatred for the enemy is a requirement for war. Don't shy away from that feeling. I still have a poster tucked away from World War II and I might have to have it framed soon and hung in my library, so that no persons can ever see it and not be reminded of why we fight for our way of life.

"Deliver us from evil"

http://history1900s.about.com/library/photos/blywwiip56.htm?rd=1

witness,

"However, Arabic-speaking Christians used the word "Allah" for God before the advent of Islam, and continue to do so. "

It is true that for Christians of Arabic backround that is how they call God, which for them, ( Arab Christians ) is called Allah. Last week, while over at the Freerepublic.com website, which has a section on postings on faith matters, mostly Christian and Jewish. Last week when I came upon an article about the mother of Jesus, Mary, in which the Labanonise, Maronite Catholics call her Our Lady of Labanon and her feast day which is today, I did a Google search. Came upon a few websites with that special title to a number of Maronite Catholic parishes. One, in PA, have at the begining of its homepage the Arabic reference to God, which for Christians is Allah.

The Christians in that part of the world used the title centuries before Islam come unto the scene. So in truth, the Arab Christians are the only ones who can really use that title for God.
That the Muslim faith took from the Jewish and Christian sources do not suprise me at all. It rather saddens me.

The problem as we head into the 21st century, is that all religions, Christian, Muslim et al, believe in the veracity of books written hundreds and thousands of years ago which they accept as either divenely inspired or actually are the word of God. There is not one single scrap of evidence to support these beliefs, yet we are hell bent on killing one another because of them. What do Christians and Muslims have in common? Faith. Blind, unsupported faith drilled into us as children which later becomes fear: a fear to question or doubt, a fear to use our brains to reason. As long as we cling to these ancient words written by primitive men who thought,without a shred of proof, the earth was flat, that there could be virgin birth, miracles, angels, paradise with 72 virgins for male martyrs, we will be like lemmings rushing toward the chasm of nuclear destruction.

Didn't matter much until 9/11 and now when both sides either possess or are on the verge of possessing weapons of mass destruction which they will use with the certainty that they are the chosen people. The ancient words of all the books instruct their followers to kill the non-believers.

If there are beings watching from space, their only conclusion after viewing our self destruction of civilization must be: How incredibly stupid.

arjun.sevak: "To kill one million,there were no armies but the muslims Hindus lived and worked and traded with.They were all ready to butcher.And they did."

This is how its always been with Islam and this is how it will be for Europe (this seems inevitable by now) and eventually here for us in the States as well.

Spirit of 1683: "what unspeakable horrors await when they make up that dreaded 40%, 50% or 60% of the population?"

For those seeming to lack an imagination, regular poster Shiva here has a website graphically depicting many of those horrors. Those lacking an imagination should scroll through the many pages for images of Muslim hordes holding up severed heads, bodies dragged in the streets, women brutally raped and so on:

http://www.fomi.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1627&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

This is the inevitable future if we don't stop Muslim immigration to the west. And Muslims have the sheer gall to try to silence those who see the horror that is coming with the lame charge of "Islamophobia".

I have yet to see US media give such a detailed description of the depravity these lunatics are capable of. And you never will they are to afraid to tell the truth.

Norseman,

The fact that immigration from these lands is not being halted does not mean it is still unacceptable to allow in those with no intention of taking up arms to defend the United States and who also abuse the liberties they are granted by saying things like you just said "the United States will install Sharia law." It is not completely unreasonable to say that out of frustration, but this appears to be a dream that would be welcomed with open arms by you.

Responsibility does rest upon the citizens of the States, but this does not make civilians guilty and worthy of death. Here you are in total agreement with Osama bin Laden, who justifies his attacks on American citizens because he believes them to be responsible for their leaders decisions and thus inhuman.

The silence of the US MSM on these atrocities is more than deafening. This is brutality and moral emptiness in the rawest form.

The suburban Crusader

Foehammer

I haven't seen the Nick Berg video. I've avoided it on purpose. Yet there's no way one can totally avoid such images on the web. I accidently happened upon, and watched, some 5 seconds from a video filmed in Chechnya, I believe, of a Russian soldier whose throat was being cut exactly like the Iraqui journalist's.
I had stupidly believed that these beheadings take place somewhat mercifully, guillotine-style. One cut, and it's over.
I didn't understand the utter depravity and horror of this "religion" until I saw those 5 seconds of the tape, and heard the sounds of it. I think the sounds were even worse than the images. I don't know why.
But the video will haunt me for the rest of my life, just like the images filmed by the Allies in Nazi camps at the end of WWII, and my own visit to Auschwitz as a kid.
I admit, humbly, that I have no comprehension of, and explanation for, evil of this magnitude.
And I have to confess that, in my weakness, I've been searching for an answer on this site, while suspecting there's none other that it is.

... are streaming into Western countries, by the design and forethought of Western leaders, with no attempt whatsoever made to determine whether or not they approve of such slaughters and the ideology that motivates them.

Let us, just for a fun moment, set aside the ridiculous myth that Islam is a religion.

Do and ya get a big change at both at our ports-of-entry and at our Green Card monitoring offices.

No longer having the "Islam-is-a-religion" ridiculous myth to hange their hats on, INS officials would be forced to designate Islam as a politico-military ideology.

Any believer of Islam would certainly approve of such slaughters and the ideology (Islam) that motivates them and should be denied the right to enter or remain in America, as the case may be.

I was reading this the other night, and it jumped out at me, while it discusses Communism, and Nazism et al, it really applies to Islam too:

Ideology -- that is what gives evildoing it's long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and other's eyes, so that he won't hear reproaches and curses but will receive praise and honors. That is how the agents of the Inquisition fortified their wills: by invoking Christianity; the conquerors of foreign lands, by extolling the grandeur of their Motherland; the colonizers, by equality, brotherhood of future generations. Thanks to ideology, the twentieth century was fated to experiment evildoing on a scale calculated in the millions. -- Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago.

Crude One,

There are indeed a few (very few) instances of a call to violence in both the Old and New Testaments. However, all are specific calls to war against specific enemies in specific periods of time. Nowhere does the Bible call for Jews or Christians to slay the infidels wherever you find them or wherever they hide; and nowhere does it promise rewards for those who rape, torture and murder in God's name.

On closer scrutiny I think you will find that many of the conflicts that have been characterized as religious wars (such as the Crusades) were actually justified assaults against evil ideologies that had imposed their vile and brutal system of beliefs on others.

Those who believe in a loving God should not be mocked; neither should those who choose not to believe.

ovidius_naso,

A mass exodus from Islam may not be probable, but it is possible, even given the current state of the world. With Islam seemingly gaining strength and the West doing little but sitting back apologizing for its own existence, there is still a voice struggling to be heard from ordinary Muslims -- a somewhat bewildered voice, to be sure, but nonetheless a voice expressing a questioning, a criticism, a puzzlement.

This will be helped along by the Internet and even by the mass media. News will make its way to the surface which in the past stayed buried. For example, even staunch Muslims in Turkey are questioning the religion which enourages so-called "honour killings." "This is not the true Islam," they say. Or, about Aisha's tender age, they say, "Understanding is very hard." With these words, expressed in these scenarios and in many others, the struggle will begin.

Ali Sina (from faithfreedom.org)has said that when Muslims realize the extent to which they've been deceived by their religion, they will rise up in earth-shaking numbers. I hope he's right.

I agree that many people don't want freedom, and this is especially evident in the Muslim world. It's a frightening prospect to have to be responsible for one's own thoughts and actions. Much better, they think, to defer to a higher power -- whether that be the Qur'an, Nazi ideology, or mainstream conformity.

Of all the convulsions which have shaken the world throughout human history, I see the coming war between Islam and freedom as being the worst. If enough Muslims come to their senses before the crisis point is reached, there is a hope that the war can be averted. But the chance is slight, I agree.

"Muhammad was in fact suffering from some sort of organic brain disease"

Its a point that's been discussed quite a few times. Appratenly after one of his seizures he would then start to recite new parts of the Koran, which were then transcribed.

It was during these seizures that he was being spoken to by Gabriel (so they say)."

Quote above...

mazztr;

The Bible states in many places that epileptic seizures are a form of demonic possesion, this is what I feel happened to Muhammad.

Try looking at Mark 5;1-9 , Mark 1;32, Matthew 17;14-21 for a start.

Somethings require the use of faith, used in everyday life as well as religion.

Muhammid was taken by evil to do its bidding, and you can see it's fruit.

Foehammer, "As much as the videotaped evidence sickens me, I might yet have to start posting links for the world to consume regularly so that we never forget what montrous acts are done in the name of "Allah.""

There should be an IslamicAtrocities website to serve as a permanent reminder of these horrendous acts in the name of Allah/Islam. Perhaps, a fitting tribute to Atwar Bahjat, Nick Berg and millions of others slaughtered by Islamofascists.

The stories must be told and the photos and videos must be viewed. We cannot turn away; we cannot hope it goes away. If we do, we lose. This will be a very long war against this form of terrorism because it has no boundaries; geographic or moral.

The battle, such as it was, is over. You lost. The governing elites in the United States have made their decision. Between one and two million Muslims from the Middle East, Africa, and South Asia will be admitted to the United States each year. Many more will continue to enter illegally across the undefended borders.

Currently there are 1.2 mil legal immigrants from all over the world allowed into the US each year. So where are you getting the numbers of 1-2 mil for Muslims alone? Immigration reform has not passed in the Senate the only bill that passed is the House bill that emphasizes border control and makes illegal immigration a felony. That is the bill illegal immigrants have been prostesting against.The proposed Senate bill is very different from the House bill so the two bills would need to be reconciled in conference to arrive at a bill that the President could sign.So it is unclear what the final bill will look like. There is also the added complication of the recent illegal immigrant marches that have backfired and lead to calls for tougher border enforcement. Polling after the "May Day" marches shows that the American people are overwhelming calling for tougher border security first usually by percentages of 60% or more.People are tired of
immigration in general and illegal immigration in particular. This is also an election year so the issue is far from settled. I don't see how you can know what immigration "reform" will look like or say that the American people have lost.

"No god I know will have his followers do this."

Au contraire: a pantheon of innumerable pagan polytheistic gods would have -- and did have -- followers do such things, for millennia, all over the globe among innumerable cultures, from the pre-Columbian Americas, to aboriginal Australia, to the pre-Taoist pre-Buddhist Far East, to Central Asia to pre-Christian barbarian Europe, Asia Minor and the Mediterranean, to darkest Africa.

Allah is one such polytheistic pagan god, but endowed with crucially distinct qualities:

1) ingeniously elevated to the status of an exclusive monotheistic God, so exclusive He even theologically swallows up His monotheistic competitors

2) an omnipotent tyrant dictating a totalitarian life

3) extending His field of pagan theomachy to the entire world

4) transforming the cosmos into an engine of eschatological dynamism, bypassing the existential state of History (which was invented by the Judaeo-Christian West) -- a dynamism placed directly into the hands of His servants (Muslims) who will not cease from this bloody labor (Jihad) until it has wrought the Eschaton (global dominion of Islam, blending into the Eternity of Paradise).

... It is time to face reality and acknowledge that the United States will be an Islamic state and that Sharia will be the law of the land.

That's hard to argue with, Norseman. But you ducked a couple of tough questions on exactly how Moslems will earn their way to victory over America:

MO HIJABS MO TURKIC GUT FLABS MO BLOODLUSTY HILAL CABS MO MAGHRIBIC CRABS

1) Can the Moslems control their bloodlust?

As you say, the demographic-politico die has been cast, but what if --- as American Moslem Man pursues his inexorable path to victory over America, humping away at Islam’s fast-breed program, committing polygamy as police nod & wink, made into a super-breeder by all the free hump time, his virility kept strong by food stamps meals, lounging inside his Section 8 apartment, the used Sentra outside bank-rolled by the AFDC, his many dusky offspring cared for by the free MedicAID and educated by charter schools paid for by free public school system, and yes, while American victory seems inevitable for the arithmetically-enhanced Moslem Man.

… what if, imagine just what if, some skull cap-doffed Moslem activist bobbing in a rusty freighter somewhere off New Jersey launches a EMP bomb over the east cost?

Norseman, when the jihad EMP bomb makes the lights go out, will real Americans rise up to fight the darkness? Or will they, after all the excitement about the big blackout dies down, sit back and continue to watch the freaky breeding sideshow taking place right before their eyes?

2) Norsman, when all of Europe has fallen, and that will occur before America collapses, there will be an urgent reaction. When that happens, will a new leader emerge, rally the people to a 3rd party that will be swept into Congress to pass a law under Article III Section 2 that establshes … the supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make. and force an en masse expulsion of all Moslems from the USA?

Or, after Europe falls to Islam and changes from one tarnished name (EU) to another tarnished name (Islam), will America sit back and grumble as our corrupt judiciary lords over its demise?

These men are deranged. I knew Saddam did horrifying atrocities and I knew muslims had a bloodlust for beheadings. This is beyond torture. I don't see hope for muslims. All I see are muslim children growing up and being just like these monsters. This is one story that needs to be on every headline in the world. And what they did to this poor woman needs to known, so we truly know how vile muslims are. And to think we have to share the same air. We have to share the same earth.

And to think...this is normal for these "people".

allah is sin,amm,nanna.SATAN but he is not god.it's no wonder he chose a child rapist as his messenger.there i said it!!!!

And have you all noticed whose name is missing from this thread. Yep, its the Naseemtroll. I wonder why. Surely it couldn't be the 'shame' of seeing her religion cum death cult being exposed in this way.

I am right in thinking that muslims do not believe allah created the universe, yes? I assume this as they take such pleasure in destroying Gods creation.

Allah obviously is satan, these people have been played. We must try and help them understand this as we would with any person drawn into a cult.

allah is sin,amm,nanna.SATAN but he is not god.it's no wonder he chose a child rapist as his messenger.there i said it!

i am not scared of islam...i follow the one true god.just as david slew golith.israel will soon destroy the demon god allah!

This type of macho thuggery is typical of people without values.

I suppose Islam might be considered a somewhat appealing solution if you lived in a Mad Max post-apocalyptic wasteland, where barbarism is going on all around you.

Actually, that's how Islam was born, wasn't it? Basically, Mohammed was living in some 7th-century desert wasteland, where barbarism was prevalent all around. So he came up with some "words from God" to somewhat marginally improve things towards semi-barbarism. But basically, it's still barbarism, with a cloth thrown over it. Instead of having wolves eat your entrails while you're alive, they'll cut them out for you with a knife. How much more civilized.

These things are terrible but what is even more so is unlike a murderer in our societies this man will go to sleep and wake up next morning to pray again to the Demonic Allah with NOTHING ON HIS CONSCIENCE AND NO FEELING OF REMORSE, ready for another man or wowan or child to kill in the name of the evil Islamic cult.

Islam MUST be exposed and destroyed.

Awareness is the key.

It is always the innocent who suffer. If we only cry -war!- and -revenge!- now, that is whats is going to happen. Maybe it is unavoidable but we should try every other means to fight islam. Drive your car as little as possible would be one way, buy a bike or a car that doesn't use gasoline or diesel. Gain knowledge about what islam is. Make sure to tell your local newspaper when they are lying to you. Don't forgett that the west has fantastic values to defend.

Marvin: "It is always the innocent who suffer. If we only cry -war!- and -revenge!- now, that is whats is going to happen."

What we are screaming is STOP MUSLIM IMMIGRATION TO THE WEST!!! THAT is the only way to prevent innocents from suffering - on BOTH sides.

This is insane.

I know many of us in the West like to chalk these kinds of things up to insanity, but I strongly disagree with using this kind of language in connection with these people. Insanity connotes a lesser degree of responsibility or culpability for the actions taken, or suggests that their actions are driven by some kind of organic mental pathology. I don't think this is true at all - and "insane" gives a built-in excuse.

What they do is not the result of insanity, in my belief, although I'm sure there are mentally ill individuals among them. They are evil, depraved, blood-thirsty and barbaric. They are indoctrinated to believe that all non-muslims are subhuman, and that to kill and to die are the greatest achievements during their time on earth. It's repugnant, vile and wicked - and should be called such.

Spirit:

"And have you all noticed whose name is missing from this thread. Yep, its the Naseemtroll. I wonder why."

Seems Naseem got in over her head in yesterday's post on the Iraqi celebration over the British helicopter crash. Eisenhund really let her have it (kudos Eisenhund!) Hugh had to step in.

Still, it is very curious indeed. And this post has been up for more than 8 hours.

IrishEi,
"I am curious if anyone else has considered the very real possibility that Muhammad was in fact suffering from some sort of organic brain disease." The answer is Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, that is what Mohammad probably suffered from. That was HIS excuse, the people who did this Have no excuse.
CRUSADER18@YouTube

Marvin and Caroline, I agree with you both. There are so many ways to stop the jihad. One can be a pacifist, and still join the movement to stop the jihad. Maybe especially if one is a pacifist.

To all who questioned the description of Allah as God: Allah is indeed to be understood as God, in the sense in which God can be defined across religions - that is the supreme being, the spiritual power that dominates the world, and the seat of cosmic order and morality. The difference between religions is exactly how God is defined, described, and indeed experienced. Hindus (who angrily reject the description of polytheists) believe that the Bhagavan, the Ishvara, is the Self of the world, the underlying unity of every individual Self, manifest in thousands of spiritual and material forms and incarnations behind which lies the ultimate unity to which all Selves, once Liberated, must ultimately come. Most Hindus do not believe in Creation, but hold that the Universe has always existed, being ultmately a manifestation of the Self-Existent. Jews, on the other hand, believe that God is superior to the world, which is not so much His manifestation as His creation, and the place where His power becomes manifest through history; they believe that the world has a beginning, and, presumably, an end. Christians hold that God has three Persons which are, however, one Unity, to do with the way that God manifests Himself and acts: the Father to create the world and be the inherent seat of all that is good, the Son to enter into and redeem the world, and the Spirit to be present immanently in the world, and specifically in the Church. There are many other doctrines of God. That of God as a military leader is peculiar to Islam (even the Odhinn of the Norsemen, who drove war and wanted his followers to die either speared or hanged, was not equivalent to the Supreme God, as the ancient texts make clear) and is without doubt the vilest. Let us, therefore, face each other, and let truth prevail.

I haven't read the full Times article, and I won't. I've read too many similar descriptions, seen too many videos. This is depravity, this is insanity. But the Islamic nations need to begin to recognize that themselves. We cannot forcibly implant our values into their brains. We cannot force them at gunpoint to treat each other with respect.

We do need to look at what is actually going on there, and be honest about it, and educate ourselves about the reality of Islam, not the "Religion of Peace" fairytale. Personally, I've had enough education for one lifetime.

there is no value for pacifist, as there very existence relies on the work of others to keep their surroundings safe, rule of law etc.l have nothing against pacifists, but they only embolden the enemy.
It would be very difficult to stop all immigration into
Western countries with this PC environment. no, the only way we can keep people informed is having soldiers in iraq,afganistan, the muslims we be fighting and killing each other, until a sane one starts a Democracy. most muslims will keep fighting, but by doing this we in the West can expose islam for what is is, a death cult, just from this poor reporter lady's death. keep the muslims fighting with each other, and when they attack us, we will flatten iran and syria to start with, tell them to form a democratic country, and if they dont, bomb them again, till they listen to the US.

When the US Army occupied Korea at the end of World War II, it burned every Japanese Shinto Shrine in that country - to the ground. Now, that was clarity.

Our biggest mistake in Iraq and Afghanistan is not carrying out a policy of de-Islamification. My wife watched Judgement at Nuremberg yesterday and all she could think about was why we aren't doing this in Iraq and Afghanistan. Every mullah who preaches Jihad, every political leader who teaches Jihad, should be put on military trial and quickly executed or imprisoned. If we let the mullahs maintain their power, then we really be in a quagmire. We have to throw political correctness to the wind because radical Islam is killing thousands of innocent people throughout the world.

-Michael McCullough
Stingray:  a blog for salty Christians

my last post, l mispelled.. l should of said" the muslims will be fighting and killing each other,"

Requiem for Atwar Bahjat

You were an attractive woman,
you were an intelligent woman,
you were a successful woman,
and to them, you were worthless
except as a warning to others.

Your muslim brothers only followed
the prophet’s way of terror and fear,
they followed the book with few deviations. .
They are soldiers of allah,
These soldiers of allah hated and feared you,
their muslim sister, for you were immodest,
consorted with married and unmarried men,
you traveled without an escort,
you spoke and all the world listened.
You brought fitna, too much chaos,
you had too much power.
Your torture and death was a warning.

We grieve for your suffering,
we pray for your family,
we pray that your death
opens the eyes of many.

Just a thought...
Remember the worldwide outrage over American soldiers putting ladies' panties on the heads of prisoners at Abu Ghraib? On a scale of 1 to 10, how does that compare to the vicious murder of Atwar Bahjat? Yet the MSM's silence is deafening.

Wideawake,
I agree. It just amazes me that hundreds of millions still follow this cult in spite of all the evidence of its lunacy.

Islam is the antithesis of all other religions and cultures which means that over the long run the followers of Islam will never be able to live peaceable with others. We are indeed in a fight for survival and since it will be difficult to impossible to kill all the muslims, conversion is the only realistic possibility.

A massive ideological mechanism of plausible deniability is in place, to absolve Islam of these kinds of atrocities by surgically detaching them as instances of "extremism" from Islam.

This massively influential ideological mechanism is largely homegrown in the West, and it is still not showing signs of being dethroned from Western governments, academe, news media, and even from the consensus of the popular culture.

I see a certain "paradox" here. The more "Christlike" a Christian is the higher level person he is. The more "Mohammadlike" a Muslim is the lower level person he is. So I quess we should all want Christians to be good Christians and Muslims to be poor Muslims.

special_guest: "One can be a pacifist, and still join the movement to stop the jihad. Maybe especially if one is a pacifist."

Lulu: "there is no value for pacifist, as there very existence relies on the work of others to keep their surroundings safe, rule of law etc.l have nothing against pacifists, but they only embolden the enemy."

Lulu - I must side with special_guest on this point. I think pacifists most definitely CAN be recruited to the cause of stopping the advance of jihad. There is a difference between political correctness and pacifism. PC involves turning a blind eye to reality. Pacifism does not necessarily imply that. Once a true pacifist - someone who abhors violence - is able to grasp the mandate for violence contained within Islam itself, they may well become so horrified by the psospects for the future that they are able to grasp that stopping Muslim immigration is the surest route to preventing bloodshed. Admittedly pacifism and PC do tend to coincide in certain persons but this isn't necessarily so. When PC/pacifist friends of mine have tried to call me a bigot or a nazi or whatever for criticizing Islam, I explain to them - very well then - but realize that your denial means the blood will be on YOUR hands! I think a true pacifist (if they can be separated from PC) can be made to see this.

Allah is Satan.

These Mujahadeen monsters think that by doing these things they will terrorize us into submission.
At least that is what they hope.
All it accomplishes with me is that I get very, very angry and more determined to see the end of Islam.

What they don't understand is that by showing the depravity and absolutely demonic nature of their cult Islam, they are ensuring Islam's certain destruction.
They and people like Zarquawi and Osama bin Laden will ultimately be remembered as the people who ensured Islam's end.
Perhaps these people will be remembered as the West's greatest assets in this struggle.
If Osama and Co. hadn't jumped the gun and simply let demograhics do their thing wthe West would have died in it's sleep.
We must thank them for letting the cat out of the bag early .

People everywhere (except seemingly our leaders and "elites")are rapidly coming to associate Islam with absolute evil.

It is amazing that the West's leaders and "elites" are betraying civilization by allowing this execrable cult Islam into our midst.
It is as if demons have possessed most of our leaders to carry out Satan's plan.
Shades of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers".

Caroline,
Point taken. Christians are taught to turn the other cheek, yet still adhere to the "Just War" tradition which developed as a result of the barbarian invasions.

"People everywhere (except seemingly our leaders and "elites")are rapidly coming to associate Islam with absolute evil."

Go out and engage 50 random Americans to get their response to a simple question: Is Islam causing the atrocities in the news? -- [fill in the blanks with beheadings, suicide bombings, honor killings, mass-murder & rapes in Sudan, etc.]

I bet you that the majority of your sample will say "No" -- and when pressed to elaborate, will trot out some complicated theories for detaching Islam from all these atrocities.

I've followed links today and seen pictures and videos and more pictures and more videos and I'm now sitting here shaking and I'm not ashamed to confess very near to tears. It's one thing knowing that these things happen in theory but to see things displayed in full colour on your monitor and to hear sounds as well in many cases is just oh words fail me.

I thought to myself 'I am an adult, I can take it and I've got to see what this is all about'. Dear God, I now wish that I hadn't. I don't think that I will ever get some of the images out of my head no matter how long I live for.

We have to stop this deranged ideology but how?

Islam is a religion. Never again after what I've seen today will I believe that, never, never, never, never, never. It is brutal murderous cult that must be stopped.

I agree with one of the other posters here that there should be a central website where all these pictures and videos are gathered (maybe with suitable commentary provided by us) where we can send those who doubt us. I'd do it myself if I knew how but I'm willing to help anyone who does know how.

There are no words in English to describe the type of shock I feel at the moment. I'm going for a cup of tea. Back later.

Dominic.

sorry paolo,but you are a little wrong there are two books.the book i love to read teachs love,kindness and mercy.the other teachs hate,murder and rape.there is no way they are books of the same god.one is god,one is a demon wana be!!!!

Despite all the horrors of this killing cult called Islam, I do take confort in the fact that up to six million Africans are leaving Islam for Christianity. This good news is sealing the fate of Islam as a cult that is making its way OUT.

http://americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=5044

arjun sevak:

Thank you for your enlightening explanations. Please publicize these terrible atrocities to all public officials in the US.

All Americans:

Send this article to your senators and Congress reps--by fax or surface mail--with your opinion of what to do: justice, execution, immigration slam-down. It would be better if you targeted your issue but good for as many to let the politicos know (and their staffers will be reading your message) that many of your friends and acquaintances in the US know full well what is going on with Islam and are horrified and angry and have had enough. Those in Washington tend not to heed unless they are screamed at by the populace, and sometimes not even then. But votes still count. Send Robert Spencer's book too (Politically Incorrect...). Someone needs to push a public opinion campaign and flood Washington with our opinions. This tactic can, does, has had influence.

***

I personally am appalled by the depth and breadth of this depravity. I am so sorry that Atwar Bahjat died in this way. All of the people complicit in this must be brought to justice, and the leaders who have condoned this replaced and removed from power.

Atwar Bahjat may have been a moslem in life but I am going to pray for the repose of her soul because no-one deserves to die like that no matter who or what they are.

At least once a week we pray for all the troopers in Afghanistan and Iraq this week, just this once, I will add prayers for Atwar Bahjat and the others who have been murdered by the islamists in like fashion.

Dominic.

Atwar Bahjat

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/WORLD/meast/02/23/journalists.killed/vert.bahjat.jpg

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

1. Allah is Satan.

2 Our biggest mistake in Iraq & Afghanistan is not enforcing de-islamification.(great post!)

Every murderer wearing a balaclava knows that he is a murderer. Shouting Álla-bubu-snackbar´doesn´t change a thing.

If you fight a war you fight to win. You win by destroying the enemy. If Bush doesn´t intend to destroy the enemy he will assist the enemy to destroy us.

Read Jihad Watch, Mr. President. Do your job. NOW!

Dominic - I found your post rather moving. I have always suffered from an over active imagination, especially for things like torture. I can have bouts of insomnia in the middle of the night in which I am seized by anxiety (often after a nightmare) and just cannot get certain images out of mind. This was going on long before the iraq war and long before I knew anything about islam. In fact, this was probably the major reason I supported the war in Iraq because when I thought of Saddam Hussein it conjured forth all those horrors. But I knew nothing about islam when we went in there. Islam - the biggest and best kept secret practically in human history. Now that I know I can connect all the dots. I don't know what to do now about iraq. I see little difference between Saddam Hussein and the current depravity of this rampant torture/murder. The two are not unrelated. Islam is the link. Many have commented that you get the leaders you deserve.

Now when I have those bouts of insomnia and am seized by anxiety in the middle of the night, I feel something different that I didn't feel before. I sense the presence of evil. It's not my over-active imagination anymore. The evil is real. In desperation I (who hadn't attended mass in 25 years) started saying The Lord's Prayer. That one line - "and deliver us from evil" - seemed to do the trick and made it possible for me to get back to sleep. Recently, I started attending mass again.

Campingman1 has posted here several times that Islam is satanic. I have to agree. Because if islam isn't Satanic then what is? Psychiatry is insufficent to deal with 1400 long years of Islam's depravity - the murder, the torture, the triumphant cries of "Allah Akhbar" accompanying it all. As others have pointed out, cults have come and gone. None have had this resistance, none have caused this much human suffering. None have literally reveled so joyfully in this much suffering.

Noone has a problem recognizing that Charles Manson was an evil psychopath but he was one man with a tiny handful of followers. Islam is colossal. It's the sheer size of it and the longevity of it that is unique. Again, if Islam isn't Satanic then what is? If it isn't satanic then what possible meaning could the word have?

Cowardly lunatic scum who should be shot on sight like hydrophobic dogs.

(With apologies to the latter.)

They need no further consideration, -their diseased behavior demands their elimination from the species.

Fast.

In a fit of morbid curiousity watched one of these beheading videos some time ago and still feel so angry at the people who could treat a fellow human being the way they did.

Here in New Zealand on the TV news you can see video of an IED exploding next to American soldiers and blowing them to bits or bloodied bodies of terrorists, women and kids killed by Americans, but they never ever show the videos of the deaths of people like Atwar Bahjat. The reluctance to name the enemy is even more frightening than the cowardly acts of barbarity that they commit.

I'm surprised that, to my knowledge, none of the great and even lesser Christian theologians (monks, priests, university professors, philosophers, Popes) during that long millennium (7th century A.D. to the 17th century) of the most unpleasant acquaintence of a Christian civilization (Christendom) with the scourge of Islam did not write major treatises that boldly and unequivocally identified Allah with Satan. Even for a post-Christian agnostic such as myself, the connection seems most logical.

Killing a defenceless human being in this manner is essentailly a blood sacrfice to allah - this is the way goats are slaughtered by muslims on theor festival days.

Human blood sacrifice was obvious from the time when poor Daniel Pearl was sacrificed to islam's loveless and blood thirsty god. It should have become blindingly obvious when Van Gogh was decapitated on the streets of Amsterdam.

It is pointless for muslims to claim that this is just a minority of muslims or they are not muslims who do this. This minority is too big, and its theological claims too strong, to be dismissed as an abberation.

Correction: "...that, to my knowledge, none of the ...Christian theologians ... wrote major treatises..."

Television: "Even for a post-Christian agnostic such as myself, the connection seems most logical."

TV - maybe if that connection makes sense to you then you, like me, aren't as much as a "post-Christian agnostic" as you had imagined?

Television,
Many did, including Pope Urban II who called for the first Crusade (1090?) and told Christians they were to "...destroy that vile race from the lands..."

There may be a god, but it's not one any of us knows anything about. Christianity and Islam are based on fairy tales. There is not one shred of proof to substantiate any of it. Yet we are on a collision course to destroy civilization. Why? It's called faith and it's an invention of mankind which will eventually destroy us. So, Christians and Muslims and Hindis, bend over and kiss all your asses goodbye. You died believing in virgin birth, angels, paradise, and that Mohammed's horse ascended into heaven. How stupid are we?

Zeeman,

I've always felt that those who have no faith or who deny God's existence are brave souls. To wit, Pascal’s Wager:

Pascal said one can either commit to God or not. Since it is a wager, there are two possible bets you can make, with four possible outcomes:

1) bet God exists and win (reward: eternal life)
2) bet God exists and lose (loss: very little)
3) bet God does not exist and win (push)
4) bet God does not exist and lose (loss of eternal life)

I know where I'm putting my money!

I was moved enough by this woman's murder this morning to create this today.

http://www.foehammer.net/2006/05/war-poster-islam-is-enemy.html

I hope it is just a first step in a real movement towards war with Islam. I am not going to mince words: we either fight these cultist barbarians or
we deserve our fate.

No sane person welcomes war, but I would rather die than find out one day that anyone in my own family has died in the same fashion that Atwar Bahjat had to suffer through. I see no other way to curtail this future than to stop this politically correct charade once and for all.

I have dropped the gauntlet.

I don’t know if this from Aljazeera. clarifies what if fact did happened. Here is portions of their news report;

Journalists killed in Iraq attack

Thursday 23 February 2006, 21:15 Makka Time, 18:15 GMT

The bodies of three Iraqi journalists, including a well-known correspondent for Al-Arabiya television, have been found near Samarra, police and the Arabic network said.

Al-Arabiya's Atwar Bahjat and two colleagues from the local Wassan media company, engineer Adnan Khairullah and cameraman Khalid Mahmoud, were in the city to cover the bombing on Wednesday of a revered Shia shrine.

Their employers lost contact with them on Wednesday night.

Their bullet-riddled bodies were found on Thursday morning near their vehicle, cameras and satellite dish on the outskirts of the city, 95km north of Baghdad, police Captain Laith Muhammad said.

The three journalists had been reporting live on Wednesday from the edge of Samarra, which was sealed off by security forces after the early morning explosion at the Askariya shrine, also known as the Golden Mosque.

Bahjat's last broadcast was at 6pm (1500 GMT), Al-Arabiya said.

The team was preparing to return to Kirkuk when two gunmen pulled up in pickup truck, shooting in the air and shouting: "We want the correspondent," according to a cameraman who evaded capture, Al-Arabiya reported.

The three were taken away, and their bodies were found about 10km northeast of Samarra, police and Al-Arabiya said.

A total of 82 journalists and media assistants have been killed since the start of the Iraq war in March 2003, including seven this year, according to a Reporters Without Borders Count.

Bahjat, who left Aljazeera in December to join Al-Arabiya, was the seventh woman journalist killed.

It could be they altered the story to eliminate the true facts.

Do I need to find the video to prove that Al-Jazeera is reporting selectively? I haven't had my dinner yet, but I will if I must.

Of course Al-Jazeera is eliminating key facts. They are just a mouthpiece for the jihad.

Caroline, Dominic

Asma bint Marwan, Atwar Bahjat, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan... And little, innocent Aisha, the one upon whose body and life an Empire was built.

There's a new language I'm forced to learn these days, as if English and French and Italian and my own Romance dialect were not enough, as if suffering in all those languages as well as in Slavic was not hard and significant enough,

and I have to learn this new language to prove I've been here, I've seen this umittigated horror, and heard it in sounds both rough, like a tobacco and bourbon-laden old gheezer, and tender, like a Cole Porter swing, both intimate and distant, with both wide, sky-high vowels, especially A's, and lashing, short-stopped, punishing consonants.

And it all bears the name Woman.

The ancient words of all the books instruct their followers to kill the non-believers.
Posted by: Crude one at May 7, 2006 12:58 PM
+++++++++++++++==

Crude One, your distate of relegion shows. Please read the New Testament and realize that you statement is blatantly wrong, but we all make mistakes.

As a Christian, I have not been instructed by God and Christ to kill the non-believers but to present the word of God to them.

mos have been instructed by the filth of their teachings to convert or kill the non-belivers.

There is a great chasm of difference between islam and the other relegions of the world.

I posted Robert Spencer's comments along with the link to the news story on the Politics forum at craigslist -- an increasingly popular website for public discussion (they've been featured in Time magazine among other places). Here are the responses: not one mention of Islam or Muslims, and mostly (when they rise above uncouth incoherence) PC equivalence laced with anti-American innuendos:

fundimentalists suck. § 05/07 16:23:35

-- nuff said. § 05/07 16:24:19

Fundamentalists really suck. § 05/07 16:24:19

-- lol § 05/07 16:25:08

Fundamentalists, by definition, must be killed 05/07 16:27:25

Like all other vermin.

-- Try Lamisil® Now! § 05/07 16:28:32

A little subtler than that. 05/07 16:31:08

It *is* possible to be a fundamentalist and non-violent, and/or believe that it's wrong to impose your religious dogma on others by force.

I think what's wrong with these people is a bit subtler than that.

There are also people who are not particularly religious (muslim or Xtian or what) and yet who are murderous in the extreme.

I'd call it violent extremism, rather than fundamentalism.

-- Sorry, let me amend that. 05/07 16:37:26

Fundamentalists who resort to violence.

Non-violent fundamentalists can just be ignored.

Islamist version of Bushsheep. § 05/07 16:27:27

My god is bigger than his 05/07 16:30:12

Luckily we have clear bright thinkers leading us:
I knew that my God was bigger than his," Lieutenant General William G. Boykin said of his Muslim opponent. "I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol."

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/10/21/warring_with_god/

-- and not even an American Idol, at that. § 05/07 16:30:47

-- Sounds like any good Crusader. § 05/07 16:36:03

this seems basically inflamatory. 05/07 16:31:46

Certainly I do not condone sesneless killing, which is why I am so opposed to Bush and his needless war in Iraq. It may be easier to stomach when we are at a distance, but the fact remains that we have killed tens of thousands of innocent people, all because they happen to live over top of oil resources we covet.

-- Similarities, yes, but they are not comparable § 05/07 16:42:45

How do the mujihadin figure into the article? § 05/07 16:35:12

Seperation Of Church And State 05/07 16:35:35

it's not just a good idea, IT'S THE LAW !!!!!!!!!!!!!

___

I'm telling you guys at JW: we are still a small minority.

This is just one of countless innocents across our world that the followers of the filth of islam have committed vile and murderous actions against. The vileness of these actions by the muslims have touched many souls across our world.

Our souls cry out and mourn for these innocents. We pray to God for the strength to see us through this time and to convince the leaders of the free world and President Bush that we are in a war for our ultimate survival with islam.

God bless America and the free nations of the world and protect and save the subjugated of the world. By the grace of God we will defeat the vileness that is islam.

The Texican.

PRESIDENT BUSH,

AMERICA IS LIVID WITH ANGER AND READY TO WAGE WAR ON THOSE THAT COMMIT SUCH VILENESS.

ARE YOU???

The Texican.
Freedom, the only choice at any cost and the cost will be immense.

Television:

You just gave me a great idea for where to post. I'll stir up those morons like an ant hill.

IrishEi,

That is not an argument, only a positioning. That is what faith is...an endeavor to put the supposed immortal soul in the best position to attain eternal life and salvation. There is no evidence to support either of those outcomes. They are human inventions created to deny that we are mortal and the spirit is finite.

If Pascal's wager carries any weight, then we can blame him as well as faith for the end of civilization.

In the meantime, Ahmadinijabad continues to make his holy nuclear bombs in the belief he carries out god's will. You continue to think you have the best religion. You are both idiots.

Foehammer, good luck: you might get swarmed by minions.

Television:

I'm banking on it.

zeeman:

Believe what you will, but I am sure that I am more than flesh and bone. And believe me, I have been called many things in my life, but idiot, stupid and ignorant are not among them.

I'll trust I'm in good company with the likes of Einstein and Newton when it comes to a belief in God.

zeeman,

I'm not sure, but I believe your circuitous post has simply restated my own argument. I guess that's what happens when you have nothing of substance to add.

As for me, my wager still stands. In fact, I'll double it.

I still admire your bravery.

Besides, among other things, using it as a war-cry and the equivelent of hallelujah shouted as punctuation to the Friday sermon, "allahu akbar" is also exclaimed by Muslims while slaughtering an animal. The Nazis used to send members of the Hitler Youth to work on farms where they were made to slaughter large animals - an exercise intended to toughen them up and make good soldiers. At eid ul-adha rams or goats have their throats slit and are bled to death before an apreciative audience in a celebratory, party atmosphere. The influence of this religious custom, enjoined by Mohammed, can be seen time and time again at the scene of Muslim atrocities. It's a brutalising religion.

You continue to think you have the best religion. You are both idiots.
Posted by: zeeman at May 7, 2006 08:43 PM
+++++++++++++

zeeman, your hatred of Christanity shows. There was a poster from england that had such hatred and he was banned for continual attacks on Christanity and the civilized relegions of the world.

the filth of islam is no relegion, but a cult of hatred and murder.

Do not compare the filth of islam with the Christanity or the civilized relegions of the world.

The Texican.

Would you please add something of substance to support the belief that christianity is good, islam is bad, or that either one can be prove able. Don't give me faith.

zeeman:

Sure, that's an easy one: if you don't believe in something greater than your physical being, you live a life devoid of hope and given the choice between hope or despair, the wise man will always choose the former.

Chew on that for a bit.

You continue to think you have the best religion. You are both idiots.
Posted by: zeeman at May 7, 2006 08:43 PM
+++++++++++++

zeeman, your hatred of Christanity shows. There was a poster from england that had such hatred and he was banned for continual attacks on Christanity and the civilized relegions of the world.

the filth of islam is no relegion, but a cult of hatred and murder.

Do not compare the filth of islam with the Christanity or the civilized relegions of the world.

The Texican.

sorry about the double post.

Dominic (necessitasnonhabetlegem) said

I agree with one of the other posters here that there should be a central website where all these pictures and videos are gathered

You can go to Ogrish to see all the beheadings etc. you'd ever want to. Unless you are a jihadist, won't want to go there on a full stomach. If you want to make your own website, you could just have commentary and links to ogrish, to save on your bandwidth. If people can be persuaded to watch just one of these videos, they will no longer spout the "they are just like us" or "they are freedom fighters" lines again.

About the difference in the coverage of the story, I think that is very common. You can sometimes find the full story (and drill bits through the eyes seems to be a recurring theme in the Middle East), but the MSM will always just say that X people were found dead. The true brutality of these people is kept hidden from us.

Remember when the first-reported beheading happened, to Daniel Pearl? They first tried to say it was special effects, then that he was already dead when it happened. The depravity of these people is just beyond our comprehension. We can't be seeing what we are seeing. When it became too difficult to come up with excuses, the MSM just stopped reporting on it.

Caroline,

Just remember that the Satan is the Adversary. G-d has created everything, even the Satan.

I suggest that if you find something unendurable, then retreat from it until you can handle it. Although sometimes you just have to face things. I stopped going to LGF when I had a dream of several lizard heads in an icebox. You have to have a very clear head and a very clear mind when you fight evil.

I would say that to the extent that Americans have abandoned our own moral underpinnings we have opened ourselves to the onslaught of Islam. So we have to get our moral underpinnings back.

Get your head on straight. This is a matter of faith. If you value your physical body more than your soul, this will lead you to be afraid. There is a limit to what the physical body can endure, but the soul is eternal. You either believe this or you don't.

And here are the last words of Rabbi Akiva, who put in writing some of the most important parts of the Talmud and was a significant kabbalist. He lived to 135. He thought he had identified the Moshiach, but it was not so. He saw the highest vision of Heaven while still alive, and came back to earth.

http://www.aish.com/literacy/mitzvahs/Shema_Yisrael.asp

Shema Yisrael
by Rabbi Shraga Simmons

A primary theme of the first verse is the Oneness of God: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One" (Deut. 6:4)....

Why is "oneness" so central to Jewish belief? ...
Is it possible that the same God who gives us so much goodness one day, can make everything go wrong the next?

Events in our world may seem to mask the idea that God is One. One day we wake up and everything goes well. The next day everything goes poorly. What happened?! Is it possible that the same God who gives us so much goodness one day, can make everything go wrong the next? We know that God is good, so how could there be so much pain? Is it just "bad luck"?

The Shema is a declaration that all events are from the One, the only One. The confusion stems from our limited perception of reality. One way of understanding God's oneness is to imagine light shining through a prism. Even though we see many colors of the spectrum, they really emanate from one light. So too, even though it seems that certain events are not caused by God, rather by some other force or bad luck, they in fact all come from the One God. In the grand eternal plan, all is "good," for God knows best.

This runs contrary to the Zoroastrian doctrine of dualism, which propounds the idea of two conflicting powers -- good and evil.

...

LOVING GOD

The second verse in the Shema is: "And you shall love the Lord your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your resources" (Deut. 6:5).

...
What does it mean to "love God with all your soul"?

The great Talmudic scholar, Rabbi Akiva (second century) loved God so much, that he taught Torah despite the Roman law forbidding it. When the Romans found out, they sentenced him to a painful death. They took a large iron comb and began to scrape off his flesh. As he was being tortured, Rabbi Akiva joyously recited the Shema -- "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One."

His bewildered students asked, "Rabbi, how can you praise God amidst such torture?"

Rabbi Akiva replied: "All my life, I strived to love God with all my soul. Now that I have the opportunity to fulfill it, I do so with joy!" With his dying breath, he sanctified God's name by crying out the words of Shema. (Talmud - Brachot 61a)

zeeman,

Whether or not you believe that Christ is the Son of God or that Mohammad was a prophet is inconsequential; the fact that they existed is a historical fact that even atheists and agnostics must accept. Here is the most fundamental basis for the argument that Christianity is a religion based on a loving God and Islam is a murderous cult:

The Bible tells us to follow the golden rule: "Treat others as you would have them treat you" (Mt. 7:12)

The Qur'an tells Muslims to kill the infidel wherever you find them.

There are literally thousands of comparisons that could be made to support this stand, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to post them. Besides, your spiteful remarks lead me to believe any effort to enlighten you would be futile.

zeeman, I am a secularist and an agnostic, and it's plain as the nose on my face to me that Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism (just to name a few) have historically shown a capacity for developing intellectually and accomodating themselves in a mature manner (not without a few bumps in the road in centuries past) to modernity, secularism and human rights, and furthermore, show themselves by and large (with a few relatively minor exceptions) to nourish subcultures that are favorable to sense of humor and live-and-let-live attitudes -- while Islam (in its authentic roots and when it is authentically practiced) is egregiously, screamingly hostile to all of the above virtues that seem to come fairly easily to the other religions.

I say that it's "plain as the nose on my face", but this may obscure the fact that I have taken the trouble to read a lot about this for years. Nevertheless, simply reading and digesting facts is not enough: one has to think outside the PC box for those facts to become obvious. Cutting off an innocent woman's head in broad daylight while praising God is so screamingly, staggeringly, stupefyingly dissimilar to the other "fundamentalisms" of the world that, frankly, I wonder if you are on the same planet as we are. Anyone who even thinks to balk and quibble (for fucking God's sakes!) at vomiting in existential revulsion and horror at the actions of Muslims like this one arouses a revulsion not that far from the original one.

HaMalac,
Very nice post. Inspiring.

I do not defend islam and its barbarities. I laud the principles of christianity in which i was brought up. My point is this: there is no evidence that either one has a leg to stand on in fact, and yet we are rushing headlong toward the extinction of civilization because we both believe each in our own dogma. Your arguments support this. Your dogma is better than their dogma when in fact all the dogma is unsubstantiated dogshit. What an unbelieveable waste of time and lives!

http://www.foehammer.net/2006/05/war-poster-islam-is-enemy.html

Foehammer, nice poster, very fitting. I've saved it so I can print it later. Maybe this should be up on as many blogs as possible to get the point across.

We've been fighing this war off-and-on for 1,400 years. It's time to finish it, IMHO.

I am a secularist and agnostic like Television and I agree with his comments.

zeeman, YOU are wrong. You are trying to argue that this is a fight between Christianity and Islam. It is not. It is a fight between Islam civilization. The "dogma" we are defending is the dogma of classical liberalism, of Enlightenment thinking, of rationality of individual rights, of human compassion.

Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. have adapted themselves to modernity. Not completely, but well enough that they don't believe slaughtering non-believers and "heretics" is demanded of them by their god or gods (or philosophy, in the case of Buddhism).

"We" are not rushing toward the extinction of civilization, Islam is. All we can do is defend civilization as best we can against Islam's onslaught.

"HaMalac,
Very nice post. Inspiring."

It was. Thank you HaMalach.:-)

Touche Television and tigger2005!

Something not considered yet, the jihadis are utilizing a number of mediums for recruiting. One of these avenues of communication is the net, perhaps a way to shut down jihadi sites would be in order. Already the islamic net warriors are defacing sites that they don't agree with and using the net to try to pinpoint the locations of their targets. This already cost one family in New Jersey their lives. Just a thought for any geeky pacifists , or geeky non-pacifists, as it were.

I expected to be in the minority. I will continue to lurk, the conscience of reason. Have a nice life.

BG: Thanks and I hope so, and agreed.

zeeman:

If all the answers were given to you on a silver-platter, would the challenges of life give you the opportunity to evolve, better yourself or go down the opposite path? The Bible says that God created man in his own image, but I have never believe that this was meant in regards to our physical being, for obviously God would have no use for such a fragile shell. What it does mean is that God created us with his mind and our own mind is a reflection of his -- we have the capacity to fulfill our destinies and all of our thoughts spring from that creator in one way or another.

Consider that life is a game and we are moving the pieces. God has a sense of humor and loves a challenge. He wants us to play the game until we get it right. Some people fail miserably while a few play it so well that they shine amongst us like beacons.

No life is a waste as long as it is lived genuinely and with courage and hope. Live for a meaning, live for a truth, live for a passion. Give back to the world when you can and protect what is good. Do these things and every life matters more.

And this couldn't be truer than today, in a world so bereft of morality and wisdom and surrounded on all sides by evil that we find ourselves questioning our own sanity sometimes. But, in the end, we are creatures of spirit and we continue. And that is exactly why making choices to further that spirit and not warp it into something monstrous and vile like so many misguided Muslims are doing -- that is why it is of value to expand our minds and thereby expand our spirits.

This is all an evolution into a higher place. That's all I can say. And I do believe that.

That's noble. Osama believes the same thing. Stale mate.

Your dogma is better than their dogma when in fact all the dogma is unsubstantiated dogshit. What an unbelieveable waste of time and lives!
Posted by: zeeman at May 7, 2006 09:42 PM
++++++++++++++++

zeeman, such BS by you is preached by leftist liberals and by atheists that hate everything that is good and Christian.

Why don't you move to the middle east and preach your brand of BS to the mos and if you live more than a couple of days it will only be by the grace of God.

Grow up, get a life and realize that Christians, agnostics, atheists and the peaceful religions of the world are in the ultimate battle for survival against the filth that is islam.

The Texican.
Freedom, the only choice at any cost and the cost will be immense

"That's noble. Osama believes the same thing. Stale mate."

No he doesn't, Zeeman. The body is the temple of the soul. You go around destroying other peoples' temples, where are you? Where are they? That's what OBL is preaching. The US doesn't want that. The Israelis don't want that. The Indians don't want that. OBL is preaching destruction and takeover of bodies, minds, and souls. The US, Israel etc are behind live and let live. These two philosophies could not be more different, even if G-d were not involved. basically this is freewill choice, do good or do evil.

Non-believers, contented atheists, if they are at all sensible, would realize that Islam is a menace as no other belief-system called a "religion" is. There is a difference. Look at what Bertrand Russell wrote about the horrors of Islam (see his "Unpopular Essays"). No other belief-system that is called a "religion" is such a menace to those who do not believe it, and a menace as well to the enterprise of science which requires free and skeptical inquiry, to art, to the respect for the individual as opposed to the view, in Islam, that Islam itself, and the Community, the umma, are all that matter.

Zeeman I too am an atheism tending agnostic.
However my personal ethics are based upon the teaching of a man: JC.

This particulat postline is about barbarous atrocity being perpetuated in the name of (to myself) a very dubious god.

It is NOT about opposing gods although that could become a digression but about living in the dark ages with dark age ethics or living in the 21st century and trying to be civilised.

Why dont you shut up and go watch some beheadings.
I will even give you the url:
http://www.ogrish.com/archives/execution/beheading/

Then if your stomach is still in good enough condition come back and preach scepticism and tolerance for an intolerant brutal enemy.

Non-believers, contented atheists, if they are at all sensible, would realize that Islam is a menace as is no other belief-system called a "religion. Islam threatens free and skeptical inquiry. Islam limits the practice of art. Islam regards the individual as insignificant, the group -- the group of Believers-- as everything. Every intelligent atheist who has looked at Islam has come away horrified, and has not been content to simply offer an identical pox on all houses of belief. One example is Bertrand Russell who, in his "Unpopular Essays," describes the totalitarianism and fanaticism of Islam. Such fanaticism can be found in practitioners of other religions, but unnaturally and not consistently. In Islam, the Complete Regulation of Life and Total Explanation of the Universe that is Islam lends itself to totalitarianism. No other belief-system called a "religion" demands that its adherents divide the world between Believers and Infidels, and counsels, requires, imposes as a duty, constant warfare -- by whatever means come to hand -- against those Infidels, until the Faith (Islam) dominates everywhere, and the Believers (Muslims) rule everywhere.

No other belief-system that is called a "religion" is such a menace to those who do not believe it, and a menace to science, art, the individual. It would be crazy to see all religions as equally to be deplorred -- even if, or perhaps especially if, one is an atheist.

For atheism can be practiced, nowadays, in societies where Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, dominate. But it is not possible in Islam. In Islam, under Islam, within Islam, nothing but Islam is possible.

Zeeman
"yet we are rushing headlong toward the extinction of civilization because we both believe each in our own dogma...."

No. Who says we are rushing headlong toward the extinction of civilization? These people, the Arab Muslims, are moving toward killing, obliterating, and/or enslaving us. We have to fight back. This is simple self defense. Some of them are pulling out nuclear threats. I'm not minimizing them, but it is very simple that while you might back down from deadly threat if you are the weaker (as in fact the Arabs are), you should not back down if you are threatened and you are the stronger--as the US, and arguably Israel is. The belief systems clarify where we stand in life,not what the threats are.

Allah is one such polytheistic pagan god, but endowed with crucially distinct qualities:

Television, you forgot number five:

5. A permanent sense of offense, victimhood, and vengefulness

zeeman:

You miss one fundamental difference between Osama and myself: my God is real.

And no, I do not aspire to believe that my God is only a Christian incarnation, but surely, after 1300 years of murder, mayhem, lies, treachery and bloodlust, no benevolent deity could possibly make claim to Islam.

But note that there might very well be some other power at work here. Who am I to judge that? Islam might be the tool of human ambition and deceit or even worse, it might be driven by something greater and more terrible.

In time, I think much of this will be made clear to us all, but either way, the only option is to fight for the future of what advances and rights good men and women have achieved up to this point in history. To just bend backwards and relinquish what we know is right because fools tell us to hide our heads in shame or look away from the facts, that is out of the question. I make my own mind up. In the end, we all practice free will and that is also a gift from our creator.

A world ruled by Islam would shatter that last notion absolutely.

Zeeman asked:
"Would you please add something of substance to support the belief that christianity is good, islam is bad, or that either one can be prove able. Don't give me faith."

This one is simple to answer since I do not have to offer something of substance to support the belief that Christianity is true, only that it is good. That Islam is bad is even easier.

First, it is Christian civilization that first brought forth the impulse to abolish slavery. It is Judaism and Christianity that first concieved that each human person had dignity and inviolable rights.

In Islam, the support of slavery is considered a divine precept while women and non-believers have few or no rights.

The very rise of modern society is overwhelmingly the result of Christian and Jewish civilization. I also freely admit that the civilizational results of Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, and Confucianism are good in that they all exalt peace and human dignity.

Lastly, a strong belief in Christianity has produced Francis of Asissi, Mother Teresa, Albert Schweitzer, Martin Luther King, Alexander Solzhenitzen, Dietrich Bonhoffer, and countless others like them. The other faiths I mentioned above have also produced great humanitarians and saints.

A strong belief in Islam has produced Osama Bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Mohammed Atta, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, and countel suicide bombers and beheaders of infidels. The only beliefs that objectively compare to Islam are Communism anmd Nazism.

So you tell me which belief systems are mostly good and which are mostly evil?

Hugh...a post where not only do I totally agree with your content but also wholeheartedly with your style. Long may it continue!!!

Foehammer...Go!! Go!! The believers!! But do remember that some of us nonbelievers are your allies.

May everything the allahu wackjobs do to others be done to them a thousandfold. The majority of Europeans perceive the united states as being arrogant but it just might be our arrogance that will save us from following Europe into the abyss that is Islam.

Provoslavni..another post with which I heartedly agree...the christian church over the last 150 years has effectively rehabilitated itself and gone(to a degree) back to fundamentals although excessive missionay zeal is still a problem.

However the crucial point of JudaeoChristianity society(not the religion I add)is in that it fomented the opening of the intellect, which gave rise to the technology of the industrial age and the creation of excess and thus enabled the expression of the humanitarianism latent in both teachings.

Islam via Al-Ghazzali and its prophet(???) is locked into a dark age mindset with blinkers in all directions and no concept of altrusim even towards muslims of different sect let alone kafirs.

The only reason that they try to master western technology now is to better enable them to KILL us. Remove us and it is back to the sand instead of paper.

To us the man lying at the foot of the "good Samaritan" is just another poor man needing help.
To a Muslim he is kafir and not worth the time or the effort.

Until such time as you can provide any proof that there is God or Allah, other than "I think so", why don't we stick to reason?

Until such time as you can provide any proof that there is God or Allah, other than "I think so", why don't we stick to reason?
Posted by: zeeman at May 8, 2006 12:15 AM
+++++++++++++

So stick to reason......... So you have read all of the preceding posts and still refuse to understand.

Proof:
When I was 16 months old, I was struck by a car and should have died and didn't because I was saved by God's grace for I have a task set for me by God to survive through the coming war to carry forward the Word. I still carry the scar that crosses my forehead to over the top of my skull. I do not fear death for I know where death leads me. Until you believe and your soul is touched, it is difficult to impart the enlightment and feelings.

You do not have to believe for that is your choice, but you do not have the right to demean that which you refuse to understand and are unwilling to learn due to your ingrained distaste for Christianity and religion.

If you wish to help, lay off Christianity and the peaceful religions and help us with your insights on how to defeat the filth that is islam.

The Texican.

Texican do not waste your time with him...I have met his ilk often and they demand proof of the impossible and when it does not come they crow as if they had won. I gave this up at about eight years of age.

He is only baiting believers and would better off playing with himself in private rather than doing it openly here.

Zeeman Go Away!! You add nothing to a serious debate and are obviously too stupid to even be aware of it.

You are an embarrassment to serious agnostics and atheists in that you are playing the belief game on what is an ethics forum.

Don't you know the difference?

Or does it not fit in with your agenda?

PS Did you watch any videos?

I bet not because you are too scared to face the reality of which we talk.

Go out and engage 50 random Americans to get their response to a simple question: Is Islam causing the atrocities in the news? -- [fill in the blanks with beheadings, suicide bombings, honor killings, mass-murder & rapes in Sudan, etc.]

I bet you that the majority of your sample will say "No" -- and when pressed to elaborate, will trot out some complicated theories for detaching Islam from all these atrocities.

Posted by: Television at May 7, 2006 05:03 PM

I take advantage of every opportunity that presents itself to broach the "Islam" topic with total strangers. On a recent trip, I sat beside a nice young man on the plane and he was a captive audience. He was truly interested (I've done this so much I can always tell), and he was shocked by what he learned and anxious to learn more. I have some cards with the Jihadwatch web address on them, which I leave in restaurants and other public places. The Sky Magazines in the seat pockets of airplanes are a good place to put them.

But I am often surprised by how much people know about Islam, usually those you would least expect to have a clue. I was getting a manicure the other day when something came on television related to Islam, and I couldn't help but shake my head and mutter under my breath. I go to a nail salon that is owned and operated by Vietnamese immigrants and most of them can barely speak English. The manicurist knew all about Islam and agreed that it was an abomination. We had a long and fascinating conversation, during which he confided that his wife didn't like to discuss Islam with him because he got so agitated. I gave him some cards to give to his friends and clients.

People in my area tend to be well informed about Islam. The editorial staff at our local paper has written some great articles, and the letters of many local citizens have been published on the editoral pages. I have never seen one letter to the editor regarding Islam that was not extremely critical and replete with caveats. Of course, I live in a Conservative red state and the editorial page of our newspaper is definitely Conservative, a real freak in today's world.

Too many Americans remain ignorant about the true teachings of Islam, but they are ignorant about politics and current events as well. Some people are simply so wrapped up in their personal lives that they don't keep up with anything that does not directly affect them. I was that way once; I think we all were to some degree. There will always be a segment of the population that is content to let others be the voters, protesters, activists, and watchdogs.

It's up to us to spread the word, and there are many ways to do it besides the internet. Some will be apathetic, some dubious, but many will add two and two together and take the initiative to get the whole story. How difficult is it to hand someone a card with some website addresses on it? Most people who visit this website are hooked after a few visits, and the eduction is free.

Someone above expresses an "equal plague on all your houses" view of the matter. But not all religions are equivalent just because they are all called "religions." They may, for atheists, be based on something that cannot be shared or accepted, but that does not mean they are exercises in equivalent moral idiocy.

The phrase "moderate" Muslim is telling. We have all agreed that we need "moderate Muslims" but not the "immoderate" kind. When it comes to other faiths, no one suggests that a true believer, say, in Christianity, is dangerous and that only a "moderate" Christian -- one who does not take the lessons or example of Jesus to heart -- is the acceptable kind. Actually it is the reverse. The kind of Christian one is likely to worry about is the hypocrite, the one who is unlike Jesus, who does not take the teachings of Christ, as recorded, to heart. The crimes committed by some calling themselves Christians are well-known (see Malcolm Hay, "Europe and the Jews"). They are not intrinsic to, do not ineluctably follow from, the teachings of Christ.

I completely agree with Hugh's last comment, and I would like to add this, for Zathras and any other lurking agnostics or atheists: my own belief in a creator has been cultivated organically and through the scrapes of my own life. I was not a church-going Christian, but I was raised to know the teachings of Christ and to celebrate Christmas like millions of others. But, I came from a household where I was also surrounded by books and always given the chance to approach every question with only one goal -- to seek the truth. Nothing religious was ever forced upon me, not ever.

I have had my own days in a life where I have waxed both atheist and agnostic, but as I have gotten older I have come to realize that there are powers at work far beyond my tiny existence. Suffice it to say, that the very fact that I even have the ability to question my existence, to seek ideals and to strive for a greater good, well, those simply exist so far outside of any other species on this planet that the human race might as well be alien when compared to the rest. In short, we make so little sense from a natural standpoint, that this in and of itself is almost proof positive that some greater power has meddled with humanity.

Like millions of others through history and across our planet today, I have come to the conclusion that God has his hands in everything. That idea gives me hope and a sense of calm even when faced with the treachery of forces like Islam. I know damn well that one day I will most likely find myself a target for violence because of my stands on these issues, but it does not stop me, because I have been given the moral courage to stand up to evil. And, if you are at all like me, you must ask yourself: where does such courage spawn? Is it an accident of nature? Is it all just me?

Of course not. When things are darkest, we are never really alone. And everyone of us has been given the power to change the world, if only we will try just a little bit. And together we can accomplish greatness. The fact that I read more and more people expressing a final realization of the truth behind this coming war -- THAT is a sign of everything I've just stated. Love and truth are all that matter and those are gifts from God and the primary goals of the teachings of Jesus Christ. If we hold onto the ideal of truth, we will defeat this evil like we have done in the past with other fascist ideologies, and then Islam can take its rightful place as a footnote in the history books and nothing more.

They are trying to intimidate us. They are only succeeding in making us angry. Muslims crave death and will keep killing until we give them what they wish for.

"Until such time as you can provide any proof that there is God or Allah, other than "I think so", why don't we stick to reason?" Quote by: zeeman

zeeman;

Proof of God, as with all things require a leap of faith. Sooner or later you will come to a divide, one leads away, the other to God.

The first proof is math, and the worlds inside them.
Look into Mandelbrot sets. After you explore to your fill, Look into the core of where they are, how they are.

A mirror on gods work, or just chance?

What says you?

First, one must agree or not in God. Then we can discuss the rest.

In short, we make so little sense from a natural standpoint, that this in and of itself is almost proof positive that some greater power has meddled with humanity.
-Foehammer

Please don't start Proselytising for Jesus, OK? This is the wrong forum.

As an atheist, I find neither Zeeman's requests for the proof of God's existence or the religious responses interesting, or related to facing the jihad, let alone related to the brutal slaughter of Atwar Bahjat. I hope Christians and Jews and others pray to their God for an end to these sorts of murders, but I hope that we all do alot more than pray.

Zeeman is a troll. Stop feeding the creature, it has disqualified itself from arguing with adults the moment it began to try and establish a moral equivalence between Osama bin Laden and us. We have done enough for it when we allow it to open its mouth in public; we do not need to act as if its noises had anything to do with reason, knowledge, sense, or virtue.

This gruesome act in a long list of Islamist atrocities ought to set the humanists and evolutionists back a ways. Mankind is not evolving for the better but is instead degenerating.
Mohammed chose Allah, the Moon god of the Chaldees, to be the only god worshipped when he took over Mecca and Medina. Allah was only one god of over 300 that were being worshipped at the Kaaba at the time. Worship of stones prevailed throughout the Arabian peninsula, so it is no surprise that jihadist thugs and murderers have rocks in their heads.

cactus said

Mankind is not evolving for the better but is instead degenerating...Allah was only one god of over 300 that were being worshipped at the Kaaba at the time.

Hmm, that sounds like progress to me. 299 down, 1 to go.

special_guest

"but I hope that we all do a lot more than pray"

First I will say that the religious responses have everything to do with facing the jihad, but in response to your above statement, one prays, this certainly does not rule out other actions. I'm sure you've heard of "Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition."

Foehammer I am on your side but please do not dishonour my intelligence or the thought that has gone into my position or that of any other agnostic/atheist here, as it is insulting and quite patronising. Most of us are so because of deep thought upon the subject. If you have found god/Jesus I am happy for you but otherwise keep it to yourself.

I only mention my stance on the subject to pro-islamic hecklers to show them that I am not one-eyed and "blinded by the light" as they always assume anyone who is anti-Islam to be. With their limited intellects and poorer preparation they can only rarely have an answer for us.

Notice how he has never once replied to me? Just like that Muslim who cut and ran 2 months ago.
They expect believers to be against them and are prepared. But they always forget about us.

All atheists or agnostics with whom I have had contact are anti-Islam for ethical reasons as opposed to religious ones.(that was hard to deduce:))

In a way we can be considered neutrals who have joined the fray on the side of good and against evil. It sounds pompous but it is essentially a truth. Do not underestimate our presence.

One of the details of this torture/murder reminds me of ol' Mo's party trick (played on rival caravan-raiders) as posted by our friend Archimedes:
"Mohammad torturing the highway robbers, cutting off their limbs, thrusting nails into their eyes, and leaving them to bleed to death/dehydrate in the hot sun."

islamohobic pride...the more things change the more they seem the same. Anyone would think that these barbarians wanted a return to the dark Ages?

Nice guy wasn't he? Even by Dark Age standards that was a bit excessive? Maybe Ayesha was only aged seven then.

The most annoying thing about Nazis personally
(yes, I have met several) was their arrogance but the supposedly divine arrogance of Muslims really irritates me far more.

Islam is a religion of peace, no doubt. All thes are done in the name of "Allah" I wonder the answers moslems in the free countires like America and Britain are giving to these.
What are all the moslem defenders like CAIR saying? This is because the killers are quoting the qu'ran and singing the song that some of their clerics try to teach us -Allahu Arkbar.
Definitely they believe they will go to 'heaven'.
Each time i go to CAIR's site, i feel that someone is trying to deceive me because what i see and read about islam is not what they tell me.
Is it that in islam, those we call moderates are just those seen as unserious while those who commit these atrocities are heroes and are admires? Is it that in islam commitment leads to one doing all these? If that is the case, then i'm afraid islam is not what people like CAIR present it to be.

The war that Islam is waging with the world is against all non-muslims and the world's civilization including all of the peaceful relegions of the world, athetists, angnostics, gays, straights, children, women and men.

Either we stand and fight together or we surely will die separately.

I for one will fight for the freedoms that I believe in, for America and for the slavation of the world.

The choice is yours. Freedom or oppression and death.

The Texican.
Freedom, the only choice at any cost and the cost will be immense.

If you have found god/Jesus I am happy for you but otherwise keep it to yourself.
Posted by: Zathras at May 8, 2006 05:17 AM
++++++++++++

Why, for it makes for such long discussions and threads.

Yet not once has a Christian or other relegious non-mo zealot has threatened to behead you for your non-belief.

How about that.

The Texican.

Until such time as you can provide any proof that there is God or Allah, other than "I think so", why don't we stick to reason?

from a post by Zeeman above...

I freely admit that I cannot prove the existence of God to one who does not believe. Nor would I try. Likewise, Zeeman, you cannot provide any proof that God does not exist.

Sadly, you sound like those members of the "Society of Militant Athiests" in the Soviet Union, Albania, China and other Communist dominated countries, who with their almost religious zeal to impose communism, slaughtered millions of believers in Christianity, Buddhism and other religions.

Recently, a Russian friend told me that, even though she was an athiest, she favoured a Christian Russia because Christianity was an "ideology" of life while communism was an ideology of death. The same can be said for Islam, another ideology of death!

Provos;

Our job is not to prove Father God to anyone. Father God will do that in His own time. His own way. Our job is to put the Word out to the masses. If they accept it, all the better for the hearer. If not, then woe to them that hear and choose not to obey. Zeeman has to prove that Father God dosen't exist. But the thing is this. They more than prove that Father God does exist by claiming that He dosen't exist. Why worry about a being that does not live. Or isn't alive.
It has to exist in order for you to reject it in the first place. I hope that you get the meaning of what I'm saying or trying to say.
Zeeman has his work cut out for himself in trying to prove Father God's Non-existance.
Remember when David tried to do a census of the people of Israel?

Texican you let your Zeal make you miss the point and the point was that THIS IS NOT THE PLACE and it is also insulting to some who are your allies. You, like many Muslims, may have contempt for us non-believers, but you may need us in the future moreso than the "moderate" Muslim.

If you wonder why I make this point then please understand that I have evangelists homing in on me like a sidewinder after a hot turbine since I made my mind up about my beliefs. At one time, aged 19, I had seven members of the Evangelical Union trying to break down the doors of my beliefs and I successfully fended off all of them. My position is not by accident.

If I had no opinion; if I gave it no thought; if I was just ignorant, perhaps you could be forgiven but I am none of these. I simply do NOT believe because to myself that is how I both think and feel about the subject. However I have always respected other's beliefs and in my life have often used the beliefs of others to help them pull themselves out of life's craters.

If you care to read above I actually follow the life tenets of the man Jesus and probably a damn sight better than many so-called christians (that was not personal as I do not know you, but I know many who say but are not).

FYI I "turned the other cheek" re violence and received quite few hidings because of it up until I was 18. For various reason I could not continue to do so until I was 24(you can work that out yourself). I then resumed it until early in my 30s when someone threatened my family and I have not resumed it ever since and never will again. I am not perfect enough and nor is the world. However I did spend my university time in looking for ONE true christian amongst the many thousands who claimed to be and I found NONE who were a better christian than my poor agnostic self despite the obnoxious evangelising that I endured.

I am a hardliner here no with regards to islam and it has caused me much personal agonising. I had the same problem when I realised that only violence could protect my family.My position now re islam is that the future of the species and of its great works are at stake and like my children, any violence which is sufficient tp protect is now acceptable to myself.

So please refrain from proselytising here. Believe by all means and practise it daily to your own content and i am happy for you.

But to ignore the beliefs of others is contrary to the tolerance both practised and preached by Jesus and you should know that.

Texican you let your Zeal make you miss the point and the point was that THIS IS NOT THE PLACE and it is also insulting to some who are your allies.
Posted by: Zathras at May 8, 2006 11:34 AM
++++++++++++

I am sorry that you feel insulted concerning the defense of Christianity, but I will not stand silently by and allow my relegious beliefs to be bombarded by such bigots.

It will take all of us to defeat islam, but I wonder at times about these bigots that attack Christianity and their real undertakings.

You can not separate Christians and their beliefs from this war with islam.

We pleased that so many are fighting this war.

I will be silent until another bigot attacks.

The Texican.

Islamic 'love of death' sounds like a euphemism for 'human sacrifice cult' to me.

Just the way the Aztecs and Babylonians performed it.

Islam can be seen as the world's largest death squad...

After all, the killing is the only real part of this so-called religion.

I keep seeing people compare the islamic trash to Aztecs. I have to say, that is not a fair comparison. The Aztecs were actually quite picky about their sacrifices. They didn't just grab someone off the street, drag 'em up the pyramid, and cut out their heart. The person sacrificed had to be worthy of sending to Quetzalcoatl, as in a warrior captured in battle and the like.

The Aztecs weren't half as bloodthirsty as the mohammedan savages we have to deal with, and they contributed a helluva lot more to the modern world.

And no, I'm not one of those friggin' seditious MeCHA pukes. Those brown-beretted dirtbags are almost as bad as the qur'an freaks.

In case anyone still couldn't figure out how the Western Left was going to spin Bahjat's murder, here's how: They've blamed Bush and Blair for it. This appeared in the Lefty webzine zmag.org, written by one of their Palestinian heroes apparently:

http://tinyurl.com/pyrpc

However, with this latest rationalization the Left has kicked things up a notch: Now they're suggesting that U.S. and British actions are sufficient provocation to cause the enemy to murder an innocent female journalist. In my opinion, they are now just one tiny step away from justifying 9-11 that way--If you feel oppressed, if you feel despair, if you're impoverished, what should you do? Find yourself an innocent victim and murder her.

tc399:

Don't ever try to dictate to me what I can say or where I can say it.

You'll find out fast, I'm a rebel.

And NEVER make the mistake of taking me for some dainty flower. I'm capable of thinking on a wide range of levels and that includes tell you to shove it up your ass.

Foehammer

Wow, I think I genuinely got angry. And I know why -- because that response from tc399 was so typically juvenile and without regard to the context of this thread. Evidently I touched a nerve in an agnostic synapse of yours and so you had to lash out. I should be more forgiving, but you see, lately I've had to realize that war is going to be the only answer to the dilemmas facing us all. That puts me in a very no-nonsense state of mind. I suppose that my waxing quixotic was something that was a waste of time and space for a few, but I don't regret my earlier posts for a second. I can't dwell on the negative every hour of the day.

Find hope in something or your life is pointless.

This discussion on Christian apologetics is unnecessary and disappointing.

Unnecessary as this site is for those of us who want to keep an eye on the Jihad, anything else is a diversion.

Disappointing as we are not fighting for a Christian dominated world, we are fighting to retain our secular societies where we are free to be Christian, atheist, Jewish, Hindu, agnostic, or all or none of the above.

I am a Christian, and I would welcome anyone into my foxhole when the shooting start, regardless of what religious convictions (or none) they hold. If someone claims they are fighting to retain our societies values against facism, that person is my mate.

"I hope that you get the meaning of what I'm saying or trying to say. Zeeman has his work cut out for himself in trying to prove Father God's Non-existance." Posted to me by: Ironman Hondo.

Ironman,
I agree with you completely. If you and I are wrong and there is no God, we have lost nothing. In fact, we have still gained both solace and a moral compass from our "delusion".

On the other hand, if we are right, then our athiest friends have lost everything!

One thing is sure: each of us will eventually die and then there will be no question about the reality of God.

For the people at this site who revel in their atheism, get over yourselves. Your logic will do nothing to save me when some big Islamic pig comes after my throat with a saw, but my prayers may save your ass, as they have saved mine, many a time. I had a supervisor once who told me that the harder she worked in our business, the luckier she got. It's the same with my Christian beliefs. The more I pray, the more my prayers are answered. The more my prayers are answered, the deeper goes my faith.

You are quite wrong when you say this is not the forum for religious beliefs. This is exactly the forum for it, because truth is the only thing that will effectively combat the heresy that is Islam. And truth does not live in the mind of an atheist. (Truth may be sought after in the mind of an atheist.) I always find it amusing when atheists sit around and congratulate themselves on their intelligence and reason. But the most amazing intelligent people I've ever met or heard of are also the most humble. People like Archbishop Fulton Sheen or Hillaire Belloc or G.K. Chesterton or Tolkien or Sir Thomas Moore. These guys were all highly intellectual, yet they surrendered themselves to the God that created them and had a huge impact on the people around them.

Let's be honest here. It's not that you guys don't believe in God; its that you don't want to be subject to Him. Don't insult my intelligence by telling me there is no God. You know damned good and well there is. But if you convince yourselves that He doesn't exist then you think you don't owe Him anything.

Perhaps you chafe at the idea of owing allegiance to any being. I can understand that. I am opposed to control freaks and micro-managers myself. And this may be why Islam is so abhorrent to you, because that kind of submission would be unfathomable. But do not confuse submission to a God who loves you and wants only the best for you with a satanic demon "god" that delights in the thought of your destruction. Oftentimes people confuse their own selfish and sinful behavior and the consequences of that behavior with a God who doesn't love them. But that is simply a denial of reality. God wants what is best for you. But He gave you a freewill so that you can choose for yourself. And you, in your ingratitude, blame your own stupid and painful choices on Him, instead of taking responsibility for them yourselves.

Isabellathecrusader....made a sweet little very Christian comment(“...who revel in their atheism, get over yourselves etc etc etc”)

Isabella if you are referring to myself then forget the + or - god garbage and just look at your total LACK of Christian tolerance. You are an insult to the word Christian as I see it.

You have shown absolutely no sign of understanding the teachings of Jesus let alone practising them.

Keep your stupidly childish views of my beliefs to the kindergarten where you found them.

I personally could NOT care less if you believe in the devil.

As for insulting your intelligence: you show NONE worthy of insult.

You, like more than one above show your personal bigotry about some one else's belief. You are NO better than those we all criticise here. Perhaps you do not wish to behead me(I hope) but you refuse to allow me the same rights that you expect. Now where have I heard that before?

Quite honestly I just wish some of you theoretical Christians here would read up about how to behave like one, so that you could stop pretending and actually BECOME one.

If there is a God he does not give a damn about your belief but he sure as hell looks at your behaviour and by the above he would be appalled.

If your idea of heaven is one populated only by those who spout " I believe" without taking their behaviour, here or elsewhere into consideration, then it is a place with an overhigh population of hypocritical bigots and those like myself will be pleased to miss out.

Why is it that fanatics, whether political or religious, are so alike? The absolute refusal of a minority here to even countenance a difference of view is totally inimical for what this website stands.

But, of course, that should be obvious.

With allies like some of you no wonder we are losing. Petty little agendas are undermining the great alliance.

If you don't want us just say so. I waste too much time here anyway and I do not want bigots for allies as I have enough as enemies.

Texican I will defend anyone here against those such as Zeeman or moslemguy etc, but if you people cannot give us respect as equals then what is this fight about?

Ozi_Bloke...thank you!!... you at least understand what I mean.

Eisunhund
Agree with you. The Aztecs are but stillborn as compared to these brainless zombies. I classify anybody with no compassion to be a zombie.

Zathras,

I wasn't particularly directing my post to you but I see that the effect it had was predictable. Sorry to have touched such a deep, wounded nerve. Since you don't address my comments on your unwillingness to submit to the one, true God, I'm guessing that's the part that really set you off.

You are a hypocrite, sir. You know that the Christian bashing by stalwart atheists like yourself goes on day and night on this site. (Is that supposed to protect us all from the onslaught of Islam? I think not.) You don't "believe" in God, you think we who do are childish, delusional, and that we believe in fairy tales. Yet you demand that we behave in a "Christian" manner. How ironic...you want to use something you don't believe in to silence your critics and their opinions. Where's YOUR fraternal charity? Sorry, but at Jihadwatch University, we have become students of critical analysis and your diatribe above just won't hold water. It sounds more like you are the one in kindergarten, throwing a tantrum.

I am hearing from your post that your mentality is just as oppressive as the Muslims; your desire to silence Christians is just as insidious as those who killed this reporter. Well this Christian isn't going to stand by and let your self-congratulatory spew pass for impeccable wisdom on this site.

And just for the record, tolerance is not a Christian concept. It is a liberal socialistic idea created to make people feel guilty when they disagree with someone else's views or opinions and keep them in line; it is the beginning stage of dhimmitude. So you are absolutely correct when you say I don't have any tolerance.

Telling the truth is charitable, even though sometimes the truth hurts. Truth is the absolute opposite of Islam and it must be told over and over again, relentlessly, with a vengeance if we are to eradicate Islam. If you want to take truth as a personal slap in the face, so be it. But it would be better for us to put our differences away and unite to fight this foe as they are very clear about their purpose, even if we are not.

Isabella you appear superficailly to be no true Christian or perhaps you post without reading “the above” posts of mine excluding my most recent one (until this) on this subject.

You say that it was not directed at myself, yet you throw a broadside in my general direction immediately after a similar answering one of mine. How on earth can you expect me to believe you?

Ohh you may believe in God and Jesus and whatever you learnt in Sunday school but you seem to have no idea of Charity, Tolerance or even of Fairness or, in fact any of the basic tenets which are the core of your religion. Or at least your reply seems that way.

Belief in a Christian God is simply a stepping stone across a stream to put, within reach, those admirable personal qualities, both practised and preached by Jesus. They do not come automatically and you have to practise them every day. You will fail and often but the more you try the better Christian you become. Having access to the stone does NOT alone make you a Christian. It does not mean that you cannot defend yourself as if you turn the other cheek to an unethical enemy he will laugh as it is so easy. So there are times when lapses are allowed
(as I discussed with Hamalach under various posts) or even necessary.

What you fail to realise is that these qualities can be reached and practised by people who simply swim the stream without the help of a belief. Certainly a belief makes the crossing much easier, but it is simply an aid to reaching a destination and not an end in itself and the crossing of the stream is not restricted to those who use the stone.

What set me off (as you put it) was your blanket condemnation of the group to which I belong and your sneers at our perceived (as by you) shallowness of spirit etc. In fact, it was your intolerant bigoted view of the whole group, which is in total contradistinction to the ethics that you profess to practice.

You have the nerve to call me a hypocrite and that is rather funny, seeing as any ethics that I possess are self-endowed and not the trappings that supposedly come with being a member of a certain group. Show me where I have been a hypocrite!!

Remember I do not have to turn the other cheek because I am a Christian. I do not have to show tolerance to personal attacks on my beliefs because I am a Christian and I do not have to show humility to others because I am not a Christian.

If I do any of these things it is because I regard it as the right thing to do ethically.
However if I attack you or your group for no reason at all then , yes I do fully deserve retaliation. But you have the nerve to talk about “fraternal charity” from myself but show none of it yourself. You are incredible!! It is so blatant!!

Your comment about JW University is rather art if funny considering your lack of homework on this subject (go read my posts above!! ).

As for my atheistic bashing of poor Christians, you are really deluded. I never (let us assume that I am imperfect and say: rarely) attack a Christian purely as a result of his beliefs and clearly (once again) you have not read my posts above. I only attack those Christians who take the high moral ground in a discussion simply because they call themselves Christian but without the slightest evidence of the responsibilities associated with that title, i.e., the practice of certain virtues or qualities. On this topic above, I attacked no one except Muslims and Zeeman and actually defended Christians (and Christianity as I am on the side of the Christian God) until my belief system and its adherent were attacked. Do you really have any idea about what you are speaking? You sound like someone quoting the Koran without even looking out of the window.

As for me supposedly thinking that you believe in fairy tales (and the rest of your rubbish above) because you do believe in a God that simply proves my assertion that you do not read the posts of those you dare criticise and if that is not and example of a hypocrite then it certainly is rather silly. I appreciate and often envy the belief system of others. Those who believe in a supreme being occasionally have a radiant aura of peace when they are dying and that is something which I will never know but I still can appreciate it.

In fact, I often use the personal belief system of individuals every week for their benefit and I see no fault in having such a belief. In fact, I see marked advantage over my own situation in many areas but alas I cannot believe. How could you possibly understand?

As for “tolerance”, and your view of it as being only a “liberal/socialist” idea, I could not care less what they think about the subject. I am only aware of Jesus’ tolerance toward the insane, the leprous, the fallen, the evil and mankind’s foibles generally. You keep your definition and I will keep mine.

What I do strongly resent, are people who assume that my stance is one of ignorance or socialist tendency or any mindless reason for being such as I am. Not a day goes past without some thought and some input on the subject and my own views are much more complex than you could possibly imagine( I regularly correspond with the professor of Divinity at the local university) While I may well be an agnostic with atheistic tendency, this label cannot explain the complexity of my belief system.

You must understand that for people like myself, evangelists seem to always have a compulsion which become very offensive over the decades, as is the stream of catechismal rote which they spill.

I do not mind what they believe in but I just would like the fact that I have my own belief system up and running, to be respected.

Your last paragraph I fully agree with but as you have attacked me above I have no choice but to reply in like.

If you do reply please read all of my posts on this topic above before doing so and no
apology required once you do this .

If there is a God he does not give a damn about your belief but he sure as hell looks at your behaviour and by the above he would be appalled.
Posted by: Zathras at May 9, 2006 04:20 AM
+++++++++++++++++

Hopefully the following will help to put this to bed.

There is one God and he loves and forgives all that will just ask for forgiveness. Actions - sins can condemn you, but will not save you.

In America we have the right of self choice to believe or not believe as we wish as long as we do not try to force our beliefs in an intolerant way on others.

There is tolerance and intolerance from both sides, Christian and non-believers, in America. Christians have reached the boiling point with the PCness of America that there is no-religion allowed in our government or country and the venom spews over. Non-believers believe that Christians are trying to force Christian beliefs across America and convert them and make them change there ways and the venom spews out.

We can all agree to disagree.

We have a foe in islam that is greater than our debates concerning Christianity and non-believers in America. If we do not defeat islam there will not be any more debates about Christianity and non-believers for there will no longer be any FREEDOMS IN AMERICA OR ACROSS THE WORLD.

If Islam prevails, you will convert to islam or be executed.

This is a greater threat than anything that the world has faced.

We need to bury our differences or we will be buried.

When someone posts on this site and insults either side, that individual needs to be swiftly dealt with as to their unacceptable posting.

Remember, we are in a fight for our very survival as a nation.

We can either fight and live free, submit to islam or die.

The choice is yours.

I choose freedom.

The Texican.
Freedom, the only choice at any cost and the cost will be immense.

Zathras,

I'm still trying to figure out how you got all of that out of my post. I will reiterate that it was not directed at you particularly. And I'm really quite surprised that you went off the way you did. I did not "sneer" at your "perceived", as by me, "shallowness". I never said anything about you being shallow. I never even thought it. My point above was that Christians at this site are regularly told to keep our opinions and beliefs to ourselves, to not post those beliefs here, to not express what we believe the answer to the Islamic problem might be. The message is no different that the Muslim view that we are all a bunch of (____________fill in the blank) whatever some other group agrees we are and because of our beliefs are allowed to be silenced. Who the hell has ever tried to silence the atheists here? The group that counts themselves as agnostics, atheists or unbelievers regularly makes comments that are offensive to my God and those comments often go unchallenged. I have never gotten together with the Christians on this site and laughed and poked fun at non-believing beliefs. I've kept my thoughts about your beliefs to myself because I believe that those are your beliefs and you are entitled to them. But when people start making fun of mine and joining in a group to make fun of them, my blood boils.

As for my non-Christian behavior, let's take a look at yours. Below are some of the words and phrases you used to answer my two posts above:

Sweet little very Christian
Stupidly childish
Intelligence: none worthy of insult
Fanatics
Petty little agendas
Do not want bigots for allies
No true Christian
Deluded
Rubbish

I think we have the pot calling the kettle black here. By your reasoning Robert Spencer is a bigot, hatemonger and all around bad guy who has "no idea of Charity, Tolerance or even of Fairness." He's also a Catholic, as am I. Does he fit into the same group as the rest of us delusional, fanatical Christians or does he get a pass because he's the host of this site?

I owe you no apology and will offer none. But I do feel for you when you say that Christians have a marked advantage in many areas over your own situation because, alas, you cannot believe. I do have empathy for you because my faith is a great comfort to me. And I will pray for you that you can experience that peace and comfort. That is my Christian gift to you, even though I'm a silly, delusional, childish, intolerant bigot.

Dear Isabella

The only mistake I ever make with individuals who claim some form of moral superiority over their religious beliefs is that I expect them to demonstrate it and I am often sadly disillusioned.

You were not attacking me yet my group, some of whom who were defending your group, is an okay target in your view.

We both know that this topic will lapse soon so let me just criticise your points and answer them if you can.

You said:

1)” And truth does not live in the mind of an atheist.

So truth does not live in my mind, i.e., I am a liar. Rather arrogant of you isn’t it.
I only know you and judge you by what you say here. Perhaps your truth while personally of value to you like broken glass in the hands of savages, does not have any appeal for some one else or is a difference of opinion not allowed?

2) “I always find it amusing when atheists sit around and congratulate themselves on their intelligence and reason. But the most amazing intelligent people I've ever met or heard of are also the most humble. People like Archbishop Fulton Sheen or Hillaire Belloc or G.K. Chesterton or Tolkien or Sir Thomas Moore.

I have never been lucky enough to meet these people. I have read their works (not all I add). Obviously you have access to a time machine to know these people or else have some mysterious ability to know the dead as you know the living. I know of no agnostic/atheist who congratulates him/herself especially re their intelligence but what does the truth matter? However I am sure that there are some who do

3) You are quite wrong when you say this is not the forum for religious beliefs. This is exactly the forum for it, because ..

No, the last I heard was that this website is a resource site for the coalition against jihad and that all were welcome and that it is not an evangelical pulpit nor a lectern for the religious beliefs of those here. These latter are relevant only to those who possess them.
There are devout Hindus who come here who find similar tones also offensive.

4) ..truth is the only thing that will effectively combat the heresy that is Islam.

That is pious nonsense. Only war will combat the filth that is Islam as truth plays no role in their lives. That was the great and personal discovery of he last few months.

5) Let's be honest here. It's not that you guys don't believe in God; its that you don't want to be subject to Him. Don't insult my intelligence by telling me there is no God. You know damned good and well there is. But if you convince yourselves that He doesn't exist then you think you don't owe Him anything..

That has to be the most confused statement. You prefix with honesty, yet you can “get inside” of my head and know how I think and feel. You know one of the great secrets of the universe and you can even blame me for not showing respect to someone whom I doubt exists.

6) God wants what is best for you. But He gave you a freewill so that you can choose for yourself. And you, in your ingratitude, blame your own stupid and painful choices on Him, instead of taking responsibility for them yourselves
If God gave me freewill, why can you not respect my choices? Why am I ungrateful for making a free choice? Why are my choices stupid and painful and not in your opinion but in fact? Would you have inflexible views here?

7) I wasn't particularly directing my post to you but I see that the effect it had was predictable. Sorry to have touched such a deep, wounded nerve. Since you don't address my comments on your unwillingness to submit to the one, true God, I'm guessing that's the part that really set you off.
Isabella.,.it followed directly after a post of mine asking Texican to ease up on the Christian chest thuimping. I did not find Texican’s post obscene or disgusting but just a little out of place in a coalition. I expected him to become angrily defensive here( as he often does) but you attack upon my group surprised me. So you can hardly blame me for feeling attacked. If you love and submit (hmmm doesn’t Islam mean SUBMIT) to the “one True God” then I am happy for you and no sarcasm.

8) You are a hypocrite, sir. You know that the Christian bashing by stalwart atheists like yourself goes on day and night on this site. (Is that supposed to protect us all from the onslaught of Islam? I think not.) You don't "believe" in God, you think we who do are childish, delusional, and that we believe in fairy tales. Yet you demand that we behave in a "Christian" manner. How ironic...you want to use something you don't believe in to silence your critics and their opinions.

Oh dear!! I defend Christians here and I am a hypocrite. Nice One!! I have been on here for near 6 months. I have seen the odd outside attack by muslim fools and the odd liberal atheist. But we here are all united against them. However I have seen MORE internal Christian sniping at atheist/agnostic posters here than any other site. It is apparent to me that you find us distasteful and wish that we were elsewhere. Yes, an impression, but a deeply marked one.

8) Where's YOUR fraternal charity? Sorry, but at Jihadwatch University, we have become students of critical analysis and your diatribe above just won't hold water. It sounds more like you are the one in kindergarten, throwing a tantrum.
Yes you attack my group and your “critical analysis” brands my answer as “just another diatribe by an unbeliever” and akin to a tantrum.
Now Isabella really!! If this was a university you just failed a first year exam in debate.
Can you not see it?

9) I am hearing from your post that your mentality is just as oppressive as the Muslims; your desire to silence Christians is just as insidious as those who killed this reporter. Well this Christian isn't going to stand by and let your self-congratulatory spew pass for impeccable wisdom on this site.
Naturally this is not a personal attack upon me but a comment about the devil himself with his innate need to silence Christians. As I can see no reason to silence anybody other than to beg peace from their eternal proselytising you obviously do not mean me. Or do you? Would there be some doctrinal rote occurring here? Christian good!!All else bad!! Etc

10) And just for the record, tolerance is not a Christian concept. It is a liberal socialistic idea created to make people feel guilty when they disagree with someone else's views or opinions and keep them in line; it is the beginning stage of dhimmitude.

I do doubt that Jesus would have agreed with you. But as I re-iterate, what does this have to do with it all? Don’t you feel uncomfortable about that above statement? I hope that it is not a function of your logic and your knowledge as I can see this reply being ignored like all of the others. I am happy to be tolerant of your beliefs whatever they may be but not at the cost of allowing myself to be a target for your barbs.

Isabella I wish no war with you and I mean it but I do think that some of us have the right to have respect shown for our views be they Hindu or agnostic, animist or atheist.

10) I'm still trying to figure out how you got all of that out of my post. I will reiterate that it was not directed at you particularly. And I'm really quite surprised that you went off the way you did. I did not "sneer" at your "perceived", as by me, "shallowness".

See 1) 5) 6) 9)above. I do now accept you saying that your post was NOT directed at me personally( but it was a severe criticism of the group of which I am a member). it is just that it was hard to see this at the time as it followed on from my post and I have asked several others and they also thought that it was an attack upon myself.
I mix with Christians constantly and it is rather akin to a fox mixing with the hounds and I am frequently attacked by strangers. When I am, I defend myself and my position.

11) Who the hell has ever tried to silence the atheists here? The group that counts themselves as agnostics, atheists or unbelievers regularly makes comments that are offensive to my God and those comments often go unchallenged.

Isabella I assure you that since I have been posting here and made the mistake of stating my position on several occasions, I have had everything from snide comments to direct attacks by my supposed “allies” here. I state my position usually in a debate with outsiders so as they realise that I am here not on account of a better god (though I agree that few could be as bad as allah) but on account of the violent unethical behaviour of Muslims and that alone. It may seem a trivial point but it is not, as it frequently unhinges their argument. I have NEVER attacked anyone here unless I perceive them to be attacking me or my group and only the latter when it follows a post of mine where I have stated my position. I have far better things to do than write replies like this.

12) I have never gotten together with the Christians on this site and laughed and poked fun at non-believing beliefs. I've kept my thoughts about your beliefs to myself because I believe that those are your beliefs and you are entitled to them. But when people start making fun of mine and joining in a group to make fun of them, my blood boils.
That was why I was so surprised by your attack as I never expected it from you as I have frequently read your posts. I also can agree with your latter statement and I do know how it feels

13) Sweet little very Christian etc. I think we have the pot calling the kettle black here
See 1) 5)6) 9) above…tit for tat? Let he/she who throws the first stone etc.

14). By your reasoning Robert Spencer is a bigot, hatemonger and all around bad guy who has "no idea of Charity, Tolerance or even of Fairness." He's also a Catholic, as am I. Does he fit into the same group as the rest of us delusional, fanatical Christians or does he get a pass because he's the host of this site?
Nowhere have I seen Robert Spencer attacking myself or my group, so please Isabella just as this debate was dying down you do this. I am sorry but WTF has he to do with this discussion? I have met many Christians who DO try constantly to be better people and they manage to do so without feeling the need to evangelise and who accept my position without qualm. If Robert Spencer is on of these I would be the last one to criticize him. But if he were an evangelizing hypocrite, another species I see all too often, I still would still say nothing unless he attacked me personally.

15) I owe you no apology and will offer none. But I do feel for you when you say that Christians have a marked advantage in many areas over your own situation because, alas, you cannot believe. I do have empathy for you because my faith is a great comfort to me. And I will pray for you that you can experience that peace and comfort.
If you cannot or will not see why I took you attack as personal then I can hardly expect an apology. I also thank you for the prayers but assure you that I have probably hundreds of my believer friends doing same. I really feel that I do not need them (the prayers that is) in any way as my actions in this world will dictate any nebulous future and if they do NOT then it does not matter to me. (Can you see that point and just how important it is to myself?)

16) That is my Christian gift to you, even though I'm a silly, delusional, childish, intolerant bigot.

Hmmm you have had your moments Isabella where they do apply here but I really do doubt that they are more than just brief flashes of human weakness. Brief but sharp, very sharp.
Notice how the conciliation tone moves from mildy aggro at the top to “pax nobiscum” at the end.
There is no need to reply as I simply tried here to show why and how and I am sure that you are as sick of this as I am.

I'm totally sick of this, Zathras. Let me buy you a Starbucks and we'll call it a day.

Isabel...so am I and so much so that my future participation here is in severe doubt..even texican with whom I usually agree and whom i defended above could not resist a dig and frankly I have enough experience of this sort of person as an enemy to put up with its like from a "friend" or "ally".

I have no idea of what a"starbucks' is but good luck to you and pax vobiscum!!

Zathras,

Et cum spiritu tuo. Oremus.

Starbucks is a popular coffee house in the U.S. You can get lattes, white chocolate mochas and frappuchinos, (a sweet coffee slush) along with chocolate cheesecake cupcakes, scones and the best big chewy molasses cookies I've ever had. In my universe we also call each drink a "Starbucks".

I stop by several times a week to pick up a couple for my business partner, who is also my dear friend, and me. So don't go away from the site, buddy. If I hated your guts or even mildly disliked you, I wouldn't offer to buy you a Starbucks!