"Ignorace"!

Ignorace - a flamboyant pianist who doesn't know the tunes.

Good grief. If my neck of the woods hadn't produced any philosophers since the Middle Ages, and they could be counted on the fingers of one hand, were of minor interest, heavily dependent on Aristotle, and moreover regarded with extreme suspicion, I think I'd keep very quiet about it.

And Averroes was a jihadist, by the way, just like any classical Muslim jurist. His legal handbook, Bidayat al-mudjtahid, supports very well Ben Laden’s view or Wahhabi’s for that matter.

His chapter on Jihad was translated in English by Rudolf Peters; that translation is quoted in Andrew G. Bostom’s The Legacy of Jihad (and I made an abridged French version of it), but it is not online. It’s too bad.

Ignorace n.
1. A competition in speed between ignos.

"The race is not necessarily to the swift, but to the igno"

2. A population of ignos

"Human culture advances apace
Save for those of the ignorace."

Westerness is the heirs of what resides in the museums of Rome, London and Paris -not the barbarians who regretfully conquered and reside in most of the Middle East and North Africa.

AJM,

You can also find the Averroes jihad material in Rudolph Peters' book of jihad primary documents, which is readily available. I used Peters' material in my book "Onward Muslim Soldiers."

Cordially
Robert Spencer

I don't think we have to worry about any of these people winning any spelling bees in the near future.

"Ignorance", the person, who has send this hate mail has rightly choosen his/her name. This guy is really ignorant about real islam. A magnificient structure in India, which presently known as Tajmahal was definitely NOT built by the Moghul king Shajahan, later is projected as a great lover but a careful and critical analysis of the historical proofs available, clearly shows that it was not built by Shahjahan, instead he did acquire forcibly this prexisting Hindu structure, and altered into burial place. Probably it was a pre-existing Shiv temple of Hidus. This is a standard Islamic practice to show any pre-existing building/ knowledge as a Islamic one. Now we know very well that even Allah has been borrowed from from the name of Moon God of Arab Pagans. For Muslims, Allah was discovered by the Islam.

Yes, thanks for responding, Robert.

For those interested, the original English translation of Averroes’ chapter on Jihad is in Rudolph Peters’ Jihad in Classical and Modern Islam (p. 27-42). And it is reprinted in Andrew G. Bostom’s The Legacy of Jihad (p. 147-160). Two very useful books.

Best wishes
Alain Jean-Mairet

I am having a hard time understanding what he's trying to say. We know some of the names, so what is it about blind ignorance? And what does British museum have to do with anything?

I think he's drunk.

What is in the British Museum?

Some absolutely brilliant stuff. Like this.
And these

And some rather dull stuff.

There's an interesting, and probably unanswerable question here, which is: To what extent did the medieval Islamic philsophers believe in their own explicit doctrines - which were, of course, those of Islam?

Leo Strauss thought that Al-Farabi was dissembling. He analyses Al-Farabi's discussion of Plato's Laws in an essay reprinted in What is Political Philosophy? Strauss considers that there are ambiguities in the text that can't readily be resolved by assuming that Al-Farabi hadn't seen them. Indeed, he believes that Al-Farabi hints in the text that there is more than one way to read it.

Frankly, Strauss's exegesis can be somewhat strained; and its fair to say that Strauss was somewhat obsessed with the notion that a text can have both an esoteric and an exoteric meaning. Bertrand Russell thought he saw this in Leibniz: Strauss saw it everywhere. As Robert Grant commented, "Here we have unfalsifiability with a vengeance" - because one can easily read into a text what one is expecting to find. But it can hardly be denied that it has been politic to cloak one's views in obscurity at times. Spinoza was excommunicated by the Jewish community in Amsterdam; worse can happen at other times in other places.

The above is offered as a curio. There's no way to know. But where freedom of thought is absent, people who might otherwise have said something of interest either never think of saying it (because their minds have been successfully stunted by their cultural surroundings) or they must perforce hide what they really think. Either way, their society loses.

Ignorace? LMAO, classic. I bet he's a follower isla, which was started by mohame in mecc and medinner. I kill me.....or is that the jihadists?

Robert

The British Museum is yours? And all this while, you've been saying, "Bridge for sale, bridge for sale?"

iqbal

Please lay off the Tejo Mahalya. Makes us look like Muslims for claiming monuments that didn't exist.

Since Alain Jean-Mairet has made an appearance, here is something by him to French-speaking readers:

"L’ennemi intérieur – en personne
Qui sont les islamistes vraiment dangereux? Les jeunes écervelés qui se laissent aller à l’action suicide? Les prêcheurs de haine qui insistent sur les versets les plus agressifs du Coran (les derniers révélés, incidemment, donc les plus «valables» au sens des lois islamiques), sur les actes du prophète (décapitations de masse, campagnes militaires incessantes) et les législations djihadiques qui en découlent, et qui restent en vigueur à ce jour, faute de toute remise en question?

Je pense qu’il y a pire encore. Le pire, à mon avis, serait un Musulman d’apparence parfaitement raisonnable, imberbe, modéré, voire raffiné, plutôt soufi, pas prosélyte et même ouvertement critique envers l’Islam radical (wahhabite) mais convaincu en son for intérieur que l’Islam est la solution et que la civilisation occidentale et l’«homme blanc» sont des nuisances, provisoires.

En effet, un tel personnage pourrait s’intégrer aisément dans nos sociétés, et même dans l’appareil du pouvoir. Une fois là, qui sait ce qu’il fera? Jusqu’à quel point, jusqu’à quel niveau de propagande ambiante restera-t-il raisonnable et à partir de quand laissera-t-il libre cours à ses convictions profondes et agira-t-il pour favoriser l’avènement de ce qu’il considère comme le seul gouvernement légitime – l’Islam? Et de quoi, alors, sera-t-il capable?

Pour nourrir cette réflexion, je propose ici (pdf, 82 pages) le relevé d’un échange de courriels (anonymisés) avec un tel Musulman. Le débat est relativement large et profond – je pense qu’il permet de se faire une idée précise et fiable des convictions des deux participants. Mon interlocuteur occupe un poste à responsabilité au sein de l’administration fédérale helvétique. Son profil est parfait. Son parcours est sans faute. Mais ses croyances sont, à mon avis, apocalyptiques."

And if you are Swiss, even more so.

The contents of the British Museum (and most of the others):

Lots of old stuff, originally dug up by Westerners, cataloged and studied by Westerners, and stored, housed, and valued by Westerners.

It seems like archaeology was originally a Western science. Can anyone name an Arab Muslim archaeologist?

Here in Saudi Arabia, if a historical site cannot be tied to the life of Mohammed, it stands a good chance of being destroyed if it gets in the way of progress. This is in line with the prevalent attitude that pre-Islamic history, and therefore its artifacts, is not particularly important.

It is as though, in America, pre-Columbian artifacts have nothing but their physical, material value. And history started at 1492.

Igorance, let's talk about ignorance. Please take a look at this story in the French Echo :-

http://en.france-echos.com/?p=86

An Imam attacks a 6 year old girl for inadvertantly stepping on hiss prayer mat. Made me sick.

Ignorace - you only stirred up the hornet's nest with your input. Now, they're all over you, and stinging. Ouch!!! it hurts!!!.

Robert

It's possible that the Mohammed abd al Wahhab to whom Ignorace refers is the famous Egyptian composer Wahhab and not the "Wahhabi Lobby" Wahhab.

I must admit, that's quite an impressive list he lays out, but

NO TONY SHALHOUB?!

Ignorace! You said you could provide us with 100's of names more. Please do!

without including Zogby's, Copts, Assyrians or Druze

BRING IT ON! I want to see it

Ignorace huh? What type of edjamaksashun is they gitn in school these days? What's being done wif ma tax dollarz?

The correspondence between Alain Jean-Mairet and his "moderate" Muslim friend who works in the Swiss government is fascinating. I might try to translate them into English for the benefit of other Jihad Watch readers. Mr. Jean-Mairet certainly pulls no punches with his Muslim friend: in his second letter to him, he candidly states that "Islam (the religion and the laws of Islam) is a mountain of fanciful tales, lies and barbarities -- in fact, simply put, it is a sanctification of organized crime."

ignorace is an ignoramous is so many ways, where do I start. Well, first he needs some serious study in english grammar, and access to a spelling checker which would probably try to rewrite his entire screed.

Don't understand how anyone can take rambled, scrambled b.s. like this serious.

It's probably not his first langauge. But what can you say?

I could say, for instance, that the British Museum, since he mentions it, has some of the artifacts brought back from Central Asia by Sir Aurel Stein. These were mostly Buddhist objects - manuscripts, art works, even wall paintings. And really they were what had, by chance, here and there, escaped the ravages of the Muslims when they destroyed the Buddhist civilization of the area and defaced and damaged so many beautiful and precious things without an iota of respect for their meaning or inherent worth.

Suppose Robert's correspondent lives in a country that once had its own thriving Buddhist civilization: northern India, for example - or Pakistan, the "Land of the Pure", as it now is. Would he think with sorrow on what has been lost, and on the sufferings of his own ancestors under the Arab invaders? I doubt it. This is one of the ultimate cruelties of Islam, as V. S. Naipaul says: where Islamic imperialism is triumphant people lose their past and ultimately come to identify with the invaders, bow to Arabia five times a day, and all the rest of it.

Muslim "scientists" drew most of their inspiration from Greeks who came before them and occupied those parts of the world. Archimedes, Pythagoras, Euclid, these were the fathers of modern mathematics, not Muslims. Even the "Arabic" numbers we use are Hindu in origin, brought to the West by Arab traders where they were put to use by Greek-trained mathematicians. Muslim astrologers made no significant advancements because they were held back by the teachings in the Quran that says the Earth is the center of the universe and that the Earth is flat. Muslim doctors made no advancements because of the Islmaic prohibition of touching dead bodies, so no understanding of human physiology as when Leonardo DaVinci dissected corpses. Such posturing may be popular in Muslim nations, but one only has to look at their list of "accomplishemnts" closely and the lies begin to quickly unravel, like their false prophet and false religion. Islam has contributed nothing of significance to the modern world.

Ace of Igno-

The Rosetta Stone is in the British Museum.

Chiselled by Mohammad's tri-lingual great-grandfather?

And a pair of giant Assyrian winged Sphinx's.

Carved by Mohammad's great (to the 6th power) grandfather?

And 'dying lion' friezes of Ashurnasirpal (Assurbanipal?).

Chipped by Mohammad's great (to the 8th power) uncles?

But wait... Mohammad was illiterate.

And forbade artistic representation.

(Maybe there are some 'Persian' carpets in the nappy-changing lounge?)

Islam's 'creativity' seems to be a bit under-represented.

Unless you like the odd broken Muslim pots, chipped Islamic tiles and damascened Mohammedan swords.

So, your point was, O' Ace of the Igno?

"Intolerance shows ignorance of Islam!"

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/fc/World/religion/opinion___editorials/SIG=12h9b9q8m;_ylt=Am2VKTazfetcu8Ze9pbBUof9xg8F;_ylu=X3oDMTA2ZGZwam4yBHNlYwNmYw--/*http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/347E49BD-B8A3-47A1-AF19-5EBC405A8B9F.htm

Mohammedan prop for Islam sez "Muslims don't need citizenship classes..."

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/anas_altikriti/2006/05/post_100.html

"Sir Aurel Stein..."
-- from a posting above

Even before ascending to the Francis-Edwards level of expense (what would editions of Aurel Stein cost today?), one can buy a Virago paperback (run at one point by that Kalil lady) of "The Gobi" by Mildred Cable, written circa 1930 by one of a pair of spinster sisters who did missionary work in that desert region. Cable describes both the Muslim destruction of stupas and other Buddhist artifacts, and on early twentieth century Jihads by Uighurs and other Muslims, suppressed by the Chinese who were not interested in winning hearts and minds.

Blame your ignorance of not konwing names like : Averroes, Ibn khaldun, Avicenna, Ibn Al Nafis, Ibn Alhaytham, Najib Mahfooz, Ahmad Zewail, Taj Mahal, Alhambra, Mohammad Abdalwahab, Omar Khayam and 100s of other names. Ignorance source of blind animosity.
=============

And we should care who these persons and what these places are?

Me thunks that hugh may have moded my post preceeding.............

Wisn't axatly what i sid, but semi-orks. Should have posted what I 1st write, but vile was the least of the awful degrading and offensive words............

um, hugh???????????????

The Texican.

Here's some more for French speaking readers. Not all Europeans are mad dhimmis, as the article below from Switzerland exemplifies. Admittedly a piece of party propaganda of the official SVP/UDC party Website, but quite on the mark and unusual in Europe. Sadly though, also in Helvetia the anti-dhimmis are far and few in between...

4ième partie: L'islam sur le banc d'essai
par Christoph Mörgeli, conseiller national, Uerikon (ZH)

Une personne qui ose aujourd'hui critiquer l'islam doit s'attendre à un procès pour menées racistes ou à des menaces violentes de la part des extrémistes musulmans. Ce climat d'intimidation, ces menaces intellectuelles et physiques, compromettent la libre expression des opinions, donc un des piliers de l'organisation libérale de notre société.

Nous ne pouvons pas accepter cela. La capacité d'intégration de la Suisse touche à ses limites. Il faut clairement faire comprendre que nous avons besoin d'une immigration contrôlée qui tient compte des facteurs de base que sont l'origine, l'éducation, la religion et également le nombre. Il serait grand temps aussi d'ouvrir une discussion sur les limites de la tolérance. On demande à nous autres Suisses d'être tolérants jusqu'à renier notre propre identité. Qui plus est, cette tolérance est généralement à sens unique: alors qu'on ne cesse de construire des mosquées en Europe, les chrétiens sont persécutés dans les pays à dominance musulmane. Pendant que quelques-uns de nos théologiens étudient le coran, certains Etats considèrent la possession d'une bible comme un acte punissable. Alors que chez nous des théologiens philosophent sur un "Dieu commun", les musulmans n'acceptent aucun Dieu à côté d'Allah. D'où la question toute simple: de combien de tolérance faut-il faire preuve à l'égard des intolérants?

Ce que nous vivons aujourd'hui en Europe, c'est l'introduction larvée de la charia, le régime légal islamique. Les constants appels à la tolérance encouragent cette évolution: foulards pour les femmes (signe extérieur de la subordination des femmes), procédure d'autorisation accélérée pour la construction de mosquées et de "centres culturels", libération des enfants musulmans de certaines obligations scolaires occidentales, instruction religieuse islamique à forte connotation idéologique, refus de voir l'oppression des femmes. Même dans la jurisprudence, les tribunaux voient des circonstances atténuantes dans certains facteurs islamiques. Par contre, les intérêts légitimes de la population autochtone sont ignorés, voire carrément criminalisés. Une personne qui ose affirmer la préséance de la culture occidentale et chrétienne dans son pays se fait immédiatement accuser d'incitation à la haine raciale et de xénophobie.

Hans-Peter Raddatz, professeur d'orientalisme, a résumé le problème de la manière suivante: un musulman croyant est aussi toujours un musulman politique. Un musulman qui suit les lois de sa religion entre forcément en conflit avec un régime démocratique. "Les musulmans placent leur religion au-dessus de nos lois", constate Sami Aldeeb, spécialiste du droit islamique. Mohammed réunissait plusieurs fonctions sur sa seule personne: il était à la fois prophète, prêtre, seigneur de guerre, législateur, potentat. Cet impérialisme religieux ne peut évidemment jamais accepté un Etat de droit occidental qui place ses lois au-dessus de celles du coran.

L'islam est en contradiction avec le régime occidental sur de nombreux plans. Nous nous contenterons de citer quelques exemples ici. Par exemple, les droits successoraux des femmes et des hommes: (trad.) "Un garçon a droit à un part égale à celle de deux filles." Le traitement des femmes infidèles: (trad.) "Et si certaines de vos femmes commettent des indécences, alors appelez quatre parmi vous à témoigner. S'ils témoignent contre elles, alors enfermez ces femmes dans leurs maisons jusqu'à ce que la mort les prenne." Au lieu d'un "Aimez vos ennemis", le coran lance un appel à tuer les ennemis: (trad.) "Saisissez-les et tuez-les où que vous les trouviez. Car nous vous avons donné tous les droits face à ces ennemis." L'exigence de l'exclusivité de l'islam: "Il m'a (dit Mohammed) été ordonné de combattre les hommes jusqu'à ce qu'ils disent: il n'y a pas d'autre dieu à part Allah!".

Le libre exercice de la religion a des limites: il n'est plus acceptable à partir du moment où il s'oppose aux règles de notre Etat de droit.

L'intégration ne peut être efficace que dans la mesure où les Suissesses et les Suisses ne sont pas submergés par une immigration en masse. Ce constat implique aussi un raisonnement économique: des études faites en Allemagne et aux Pays-Bas ont révélé que les immigrants touchent en moyenne plus de prestations sociales publiques qu'ils ne paient d'impôts et de redevances. Le grand nombre d'étrangers finissant dans le filet social de leur pays d'accueil tient du même raisonnement (on constate à ce propos d'importantes différences en fonction des origines des étrangers). La proportion d'étrangers parmi les chômeurs touchant des indemnités de l'assurance-chômage est de 40%. Constat semblable pour les prestations de l'assurance-invalidité. Dans le canton de Zurich, 40% des prestations d'assistance profitent à des étrangers.

L'assassinat du cinéaste néerlandais Theo van Gogh par un extrémiste musulman n'a d'abord été mentionné qu'en marge par les médias suisses. Ce thème n'a été véritablement repris chez nous que lorsque le débat à débordé en Suisse via l'Allemagne. Par contre, peu nombreux ont été les médias qui décrivaient en détail cet acte qui était une véritable exécution, l'assassin frappant sa victime des dizaines de fois avec son poignard.

Lorsque durant la campagne avant la votation sur la naturalisation facilitée un comité bourgeois opposé à ce projet voulait faire paraître des annonces, plusieurs journaux ont refusé de les reproduire. Le journal "SonntagsBlick" annonçait que l'affirmation selon laquelle les musulmans seraient bientôt la majorité en Suisse était "absurde". Le 20 mars, le journal "Blick" avait pourtant publié le titre suivant sur sa page de couverture: "Suisse: bientôt plus de musulmans que de chrétiens!".

Il serait grand temps que le débat public sur la société d'immigration suisse soit un peu moins naïf.

It could be added that Ibn Warraq’s hugely informative Why I’m Not A Muslim points out (in the Introduction) that essentially all the great achievements of science and art of Muslim civilization were accomplished in spite of, not because of, the traditional Islam of the Koran and Hadiths. As for “Islamic Philosophy”, he writes, this for the orthodox is “a contradiction in terms”.

Odysseus (and others):

A couple of good commentaries about the history of science and Islam --

http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4685

http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4744

Bonne Gott - er mon Dieu - Hugh, Mein Gott, dear friend - of course we know your position, but - but - Ignorace [whatever it calls itself] isn't worth our time! He spouts about Averroes [THAT nincompoop EVERYONE is miserably familiar with!], others we'd prefer not to think of, and I read Omar Khayam at age 9! Even then, I had more sense than Ignorace - uh - whatever it calls itself - geesh - thanks anyway - your patience is legend!

Mon Dieu--

I can't believe I can still make sense of French text! Can't speak it, by any means, but I can still read it, more than twenty years out of high school. Madame Dravillas would probably be more astonished than I am!