In Lodi Terror Case, Intent Was the Clincher

Assistant U.S. Atty. Robert Tice-Raskin summed it up: "Hamid Hayat had a jihadi heart and a jihadi mind."
-- from the article above

That is enough. That is more than enough.

The only "thought police" that I hear from on a regular basis are the Far Left and the Islamic religious leadership. And as luck would have it, both had their cronies out marching today in support of the Illegal Immigrants. Why not, right? The more to weaken the United States and the West, the better!

And if you read online, you're going to notice a lot of LIES coming out of AP and Reuters. I just got back from a jaunt around my city and there was not even a hint that anything was different, and I live in Texas! "Business feel the pinch" the AP report -- HAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Whoever knew that the media bias had reached such trash levels? The Communist Party is alive and well and working at the presses.

PS: The Communist Party was also (literally) marching today, too.

Check out Patterico's blog, he's an LA county prosecutor that gets into it regularly with the LA Times. Funny and enlightening stuff.

http://patterico.com/

Oh, and btw, why is it that Australian leaders are ahead of the curve on the truth -- way ahead of our own President? Someone reminded me of the following story from last year in an email I recieved today. I figured it applied well to Robert's statments above:

"If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you."

http://sayanythingblog.com/2005/08/24/australia_not_having_anything_to_do_with_sharia/

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/asiapacific/article_1131574.php/Culture-warrior_Howard_smites_Australias_jihadists

He should be too old by the time he gets out of the pen to think of jihad. And he doesn't get martyred.

There's a lot more out there that needs the same justice. Lets just hope they find them.

GUESS They wanted to wait untill he killed many Americans in Calf??

http://www.beecy.net/frank/

May 1, 2006
Seams that more Islamic terrorist are dead today!!

Seams also that the mulsums are rioting with the illegal aliens??

Now we haven’t seen in the USA mulsum marching against Islamic terrorist but they are marching to over through the laws of the USA Saw the movie United 93 and I didn’t cry but did get really pissed off!!

Seams that my Garbage was picked up today and the shops were open!!

And for those of you who thought Walid Fariss ia a Christian better ck your facts he has admitted on TV he is a mulsum??

22 DEAD IN Kasmir because mulsums killed them?

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Sunday the United States would seek a U.N. resolution requiring Iran to comply. She mentioned a resolution under Chapter 7 of the U.N. Charter, which can be enforced through penalties or military action.
The U.N nuclear agency issued a report Friday confirming that Tehran refused to comply with a Security Council demand that it halt enrichment by that day.

IRAQ MOVING TO FREEDOM NO MATTER WHAT THE PRESS SAYS!!

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/brwh1922.htm
British White Paper of June 1922
YES PROFF THE ARABS SIGN DEALS THEN BREAK THEM??

[Balfour] Declaration favouring the establishment of a Jewish National Home in Palestine, made on behalf of His Majesty's Government on 2nd November, 1917.

WAIT A MIN THIS IS BEFORE WW2 OH THOSE SILLY IRANIS??

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/palmanda.htm
The Palestine Mandate
The Council of the League of Nations:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181
November 29, 1947
Arabs and Jews residing in the City of Jerusalem who have signed a notice of intention to become citizens, the Arabs of the Arab State and the Jews of the Jewish State, shall be entitled to vote in the Arab and Jewish States respectively.
Women may vote and be elected to the Constituent Assemblies.
During the transitional period no Jew shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Arab State, and no Arab shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Jewish State, except by special leave of the Commission

THEY THE ARABS ARE STEALING LAND??

ACORDING TO THIS TREADY THE ARABS WHO WENT TO WAR WITH ISRAEL THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE THERE AT ALL??
Adopted at the 128th plenary meeting:
In favour: 33
Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.
Against: 13
Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.
Abstained: 10
Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.

http://i-cias.com/cgi-bin/eo-direct.pl?balfour_d.htm
The war also gave Egypt control over the Gaza Strip, while Transjordan (from 1950 Jordan) got control over the West Bank, an area they annexed in 1950.
For the Palestinians, the war resulted in years of exile, and for several millions this the prevailing situation

SO EGYPT AND JORDAN STOLE THE PALI ARAB LANDS??

HISTORY
1947 November 29:
According to this plan Jerusalem would become international territory under UN protection. 33 countries voted for, 13 against the resolution. Britain abstained, while USA and the Soviet Union voted in favour.
— The Palestinians react by performing guerrilla attacks on Jewish settlements.
— Jewish armies manage to stall the Palestinians, but the Transjordanian Arab Legion besieges Jerusalem — the intended international zone

HOW MANY TIMES WILL THE JEWS SAVE THE CHRISTANS AND HAVE THE CHRISTANS TURN AND SCREW THEM??

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=12113
Woodrow Wilson Meets Hamas
by Terence P. Jeffrey
Posted Feb 01, 2006
LOVE THIS!!

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/AllDocsByUNID/42dec0869f966a68c1256c7d0033fea9
Source: World Health Organization (WHO)

Iran's President Calls U.S. 'Hollow Superpower'

http://www.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-bosnia_p3705,00.html

The Hidden Army Of Radical Islam

JUST A REMINDER??

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/2/11/121928.shtml?s=lh
Reprinted from NewsMax.com
Saturday, Feb. 11, 2006 12:16 p.m. EST
Muslims in Violent Valentine's Day Protest

SO REMEMBER IT AINT JUST ABOUT CARTOONS IT IS ABOUT THE WAY YOU LIVE!!!

something all Americans should know about what is in the quran??

Qur’an 5:17 “Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.’”

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”

Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’ But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’

NOW THERE IS A LOT OF OTHER THINGS ABOUT KILLING AND HATE BUT THESE 3 ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT TO YOU AND THE SAFTEY OF YOU AND YOURS!!

Catherine-

I pictured Special Forces agents disconnecting Mahmoud Ahmadinejad -in his bed- with a steel stiletto heel... for a little poetic justice.

Since his regime tramples on women, the news could then be spread (internet images) that his mistress beat him to death with a Gucci knock-off.

(She wanted the real thing... cheap little s.o.b.!... and felt scorned.)

Less expensive that all-out war.

And more apt.

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 1, 2006 06:47 PM

Gold Star for you today!!

Still LOL!!

I've been saying for years the jihad doctrine in Islam walks right up to the line of organized crime, conspiracy to murder, RICO, and can't be dealt with easily in our legal system. It's an ongoing criminal conspiracy on a grand scale, with some very strange overt acts. The implications are just too great for almost anyone (present company excluded).

How many times do innocent people, minding their own business, have to be slaughtered by an identifiable group of people before those who are responsible for protecting the world wise up? Europe is sinking fast.

Hopefully the "lesser jihad" based on the weak hadith will keep things in check in the United States. But I have a feeling the Second Amendment, good (tough) police work, invasions of Muslim nations (flypaper), and most importantly, a very small Muslim minority, have much more to do with our relative luck compared to Eurabia, among others.

Even five percent appears to create havoc.

You gotta love that Muslim spin , CAIR now posts the Quasi-proof that they Condemned the 9/11 attack and other Muslim Org.'s joined them.

The 9/12/01 declaration by CAIR asseted that they hope the person responsible are brought to Justice.
Huh??????????

The Muslim Saudi Hijackers are dead, much like the Muslim suicide bombers in Iraq and Israel, how do you collect body parts and put them on trial for murder.
CAIR is the best at spin....first they declare the self-professed Muslims hijackers as non-Muslims because you are innocent until proven guilty, then they now blame alleged vandalism to Mosques in the USA as Islamophobia since they must be white/non-Muslims doing it ,right?

According to CAIR , when in America....you are innocent until proven non-Muslim.

Sorry to be a little OT, but the issue of immigration is a topic in these forums, and is relevant to the Jihad threat:

Today on the way home from work I watched the latter part of the immigrant rally going down Broadway in NYC. The crowd was mostly Latino, with a smattering of "gringos", Caribbean Blacks and East Asians. I did not see any Muslim presence, at least none advertised as such. There WERE a small number the typical idiot hangers-on, the socialist dopes who assume just becaue a large group of people are gathering, their message is part of it - not a big surprise from these self-important nitwits. They actually stuck out like sore thumbs with their shabby clothes and provocative signs.

The Latino marchers were extraordinarily well-mannered. I could have walked through the crowd in Hasdic regalia with no problems, I am quite sure. The main chant was "yes we can" in Spanish. Say what you will about English being the language of the country, it is not like they were chanting "down with America" - and there was a lot of English used as well. There were many Mexican, Honduran, Puerto Rican, Peruvian, etc flags waving, but American flags were the plurality, and many were displayed side by side with those of Latin American ones. There was NO denigration of the American flag - a few upside down, but this is a legitamite expression of discontent and not desecration IMHO. These people want to be identified with America, not tear it down. There were some silly signs asking for open borders, but most were reasonable "demands", as demands go. Many said something to the effect of "we want to be Americans". I was on the sidewalk. Some of the time, the march extended behind me and I was "surrounded". At no point did I feel in the least bit uncomfortable. If I were standing there, waving an American flag, I would have been taken as part of the march.

I cannot believe these people are in any way related to the Jihad menace. That they are immigrants, and most Jihadis in America are immigrants, is the only connection, a "guilt by association" that is useless to our cause. Whether or not large-scale immigration from Latin America is slowed down by controlling the illegal flow, the Latino presence in this country is an established fact. Probably 33% of our fighting forces are Latino, and you never heard of a Mexican-American soldier turning against his fellows to fight for the reconquista. Islam and Jihad are a cultural and existential threat to Americans of Latino background, legal immigrants, and even Latino illegals, just like they are to everyone else. If they knew what Muhammad and the canonical texts of Islam said, they would be as disgusted as freethinking person. Instead of criticising them in the same breath as we do the Jihadists, we should be finding a way of getting our message to them.

I recognise opinions contrary to mine about immigration are reasonable. I do not believe those that do so are racist, and they should be met in debate and not shouted down and mislabeled as bigots. I just feel that linking the anti-Jihad movement with immigration reform is a strategic error. Take a page from the abject failure of the left. If you look at an antiwar protest, you will see people advocating for every cause under the sun. There are plenty of Americans who are against the Iraq war, but not so comfortable with, say, "Free Mumia" or Palestine Solidarity, or what have you. The Left does not care - they try to ram it all down everyone's throat at one time and call it "coalition building" or "the movement". Of course, it is a coalition bound to offend everyone, somehow; it is a movement to nowhere, let alone political power. We should stick with the global Jihad and the hideous flaws inherent in Islam. Once free people know what Islam really says, the next steps become clear. It is undeniably true that immigration reform is necessary to confront the Jihad menace, but that reform does not have to include restricting legal immigration from Latin America to address the problem.

Posted by: Quijybo at May 1, 2006 10:24 PM

Just thought you might like to know where the link is not all his-spanics think this way but there were many mulsum country flags fling that were not seen by you today??

http://www.mayorno.com/WhoIsMecha.html

The official national symbol of MEChA is an eagle holding a machete-like weapon and a stick of dynamite.
The acronym MEChA stands for "Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan." or "Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan."

MEChA is an Hispanic separatist organization that encourages anti-American activities and civil disobedience. The radical members of MEChA who refer to themselves as "Mechistas," romanticize Mexican claims to the "lost Territories" of the Southwestern United States -- a Chicano country called Aztlan. In its national constitution, MEChA calls for self-determination by its members to liberate Aztlan. MEChA's national constitution starts out: "Chicano and Chicana students of Aztlán must take upon themselves the responsibilities to promote Chicanismo within the community, politicizing our Raza with an emphasis on indigenous consciousness to continue the struggle for the self-determination of the Chicano people for the purpose of liberating Aztlán."

READ THE WHOLE THING??

http://www.mayorno.com/WhoIsMecha.html

WHAT IS RAZA

"La Raza" (The Race) is a broad term which refers to those whose ancestry is indigenous to the area of Mexico (or "Aztlan"). MEChA members refer to themselves as "La Raza" or "Raza," but the term itself is used to indicate camaraderie among those in different organizations with the same objectives. There are a number of organizations who consider themselves to be La Raza.

READ THE WHOLE THING??

http://www.aztlan.net/nofa.htm

NATION OF AZTLAN
Ministry of Information

Los Angeles, Alta California

Estimada Raza de Aztlan and Beyond:
Ministry of Foreign Affairs
October 18, 2000
On the Palestinian-Jewish Issue
La Raza's struggle for the land and for political and economic self-determination is not different from the struggle of the Palestinian people in Zionist Israel. We live in Aztlan under Anglo domination as the Palestinians live under Jewish domination. La Raza as well as the Palestinians lost the land through military aggression and both people now live in segregated regions within the larger nation. The Palestinian people as well as La Raza provide the hard labor necessary to prop up the national economies. Both Raza children and Palestinian children are victims of educational discrimination. The Palestinians as well as La Raza are considered people of color. So who should we side with in the present struggle in the Middle East? Will it be with the Jewish Zionists or with Islam? It is no secret that the United States as a whole is siding with the Jews, but should we? It is also no secret that the Jewish Lobby in America now also dominate large parts of the U.S federal government. It is estimated that over 32% of the Clinton Administration is of Jewish descent. Many are top level Federal Officials and includes the Secretary of Defense as well as the Secretary of State. In fact, the Department of State is now pretty much entirely Jewish. Most of the foreign Ambassadors are Jewish. This trend was begun by Henry Kissinger who is a Jew. This is very surprising considering that Jews only make about 2% of the total US population. Making these statements is not anti-semitic. It is stating facts. We do not hate Jews. We respect the contributions that many Jews have made to world culture. However, we reject Zionist racist Jews like the war criminal Ariel Sharon and appeal to all good Jews to do the same.
Israel can now be considered to be the 51st state. U.S. taxpayers are now sending over 8 billion dollars each year in economic and military aid. The sophisticated military weaponry being utilized against defenseless Palestinians are gifts from Uncle Sam. In fact, Israel now has nuclear and biological weapons, thanks to the United States. Why is the US providing so much to Israel? Well the selection of Joseph Lieberman as Vice Presidential running mate for Al Gore should give a clue.
Another clue should be provided by how the Israeli Army atrocities unfolded in the US media. At first, none of the Palestinian children murders were being covered by ABC, NBC or CBS. Not until the French and Italian media started broadcasting pictures of dead Palestinian children was the US media forced to cover some of the Israeli atrocities. Politicians, including Hillary Clinton running for US Senate in New York need a friendly media to be able to win elections.
La Raza is a victim of the same political and economic forces that are oppressing the Palestinian people and other people of color around the world. We must awaken to this fact and understand the hidden strategies and tactics being utilized to subjugate our people in order to devise effective counter-measures to neutralize them.
Tezcatlipoca
Minister of Foreign Affairs
Nation of Aztlan

http://www.latinodawah.org/
Latino American Dawah Organization
Latino American Dawah Organization(LADO) is a nonprofit organization that was founded in 1997 by a handful of converts to Islam. Our mission is to promote Islam among the Latino community within the United States. We also educate Latinos and others about the legacy of Islam in Spain and Latin America and provide free information about Islam to all interested parties. Alhamdulillah (All praise is due to God), many Latinos are embracing Islam. Some feel that they are reclaiming their Islamic heritage.

What is Islam? Who is a Muslim?
Members don't create opportunities for LADO. Members create opportunities for Allah. Miembros no crean las oportunidades para LADO. Miembros crean las oportunidades para Allah.

"¡Puro Latino! ¡Puro Islam! ¡A su LADO!"
For all your burning questions...
Call 1-877-WhyIslam
Sí, hablan español

YES THERE ARE MANY GOOD HIS-PANISCS IN THE MILTARY AND CAME TO THIS COUNTRY LEGALY NOT ILLEGALY??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO DESTROY ALL MULSUM TERORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN

Great links-- especially that last one. Creepy stuff.

Watched the coverage of today's demonstrations on ABC's nightly news. Interestingly, they made note of some "other" groups marching in solidarity with the Latino participants, noting, with short pieces of video for each group as they went down the list: Irish, German, a few others, and then, "Senegalese." Only those Senegalese women were holding signs that said "Muslims for"... something about immigration, yada yada (they didn't have the shot up long).

That little omission in the narration raised an eyebrow. Either the mainstream media doesn't know well enough to make a note of the alliance, or they don't want anyone else to.

"Our mission is to promote Islam among the Latino community within the United States."

Good luck integrating the Latino culture of sensuality, festive drinking and sexy dancing to rapid-fire congas, bongos and timbales into Islam. I suppose, though, that there is a subculture of anti-Western martial puritanism among the revolutionary Zapatistas (who, like Muslims, aren't above schizophrenically combining their puritanism with lechery): are we going to see a new strain of liberation theology in Latin America, infused now with Islam rather than, or in addition to, Marx?

so what's wrong with senegalese women who say Muslims for...?
If it's muslims for more rights and better payment for immigrants, what's wrong with it? As long as it's not "muslims for missiles" or "muslims for executing immigrants", it's ok, isn't it?
Really, you are angry with them just because of those signs? Strange.
Although I wish it was "Muslimahs for equal rights for women." But i guess it wasn't.

But those poor mexican workers are treated rather badly in the USA, and get exploited, that's very different in Germany, where there are trade unions and workers can fight for their rights.

Melanie

Melanie-- with all respect, you're missing the point. What's at issue is illegal immigration.

You may also not be fully aware of how extreme some of the groups promoting todays festivities are: check out Catherine's links above, as well as http://www.aztlan.net .

Really, you are angry with them just because of those signs? Strange - Melanie

Angry? Not in the least. As I said, it raised an eyebrow. I think something went unsaid in the reporting.

lol, you should the the may 1st demonstrations in Berlin, with stones flying and burning cars. Almost a tradition here. If you see what they do to policemen there, you'd consider those peaceful protest rallys in the usa less threatening. lol
But I dont care enough to look up the links

Melanie--You just do not get it.

These individuals have invade America and the majority of Americans want them gone. These invaders of America want rights that are not theirs to demand. These invaders are protesting on the streets of America carrying Mexican flags.

If this invaders are not rounded up and sent packing, America will have a civil war in five years or less.

The Texican.

they just want a job to feed their families, texican

she doesn't get it because she is a turk who lives in Germany??

Wonderful how generous a German is with American jobs.

no, I'm not a turk, catherine

But you are a mulsum!!!

no, I'm not.

I just think the poor mexican workers are treated very unfairly in the states

My apologies to the Hayat family for the digression in the thread. ;)

A few quick points:

1. Illegal immigration brings crime and danger to the neighborhoods it overtakes.

2. The practice of illegal immigration are firmly tied in with organized crime, drug smugglers, and gangs that make US street gangs look like a litter of kittens. They profit tremendously, and our crime problems snowball. They have also been known to collaborate with terrorists.

I'll post some links if you'll read them.

3. What has the corrupt and ineffectual government of Mexico done to stop illegal immigration, and improve the lot of its own people? Money sent home from the US now exceeds Mexican oil revenues for cash flow in the country.

4. Suppose Germany were to have the same problem with, say, the French coming in illegally in droves to look for work. Would you be as sympathetic?

Yes Melanie,

Millions of people emigrated to the US legally, and many endured quotas and Ellis Island (for example, oen port of entry) where if they had any illness such as tuberculosis they were turned away. Further, they endured the hard process that is almost inevitable when you are an immigrant and must learn to live in an adopted country.

It is simply not just to allow millions of immigrants to enter the US illegally and then to provide them with US welfare and aid. It's not just, first of all to all the Americans who are working to support them, and also to the Americans who have lost jobs to them. If it were not so disturbing, it would be funny to see, for example, all the non-natives who can hardly speak the language or be understood but somehow have gotten jobs as telephone reps or receptionists.

Whether these illegal immigrants are polite or not is really a minor issue--it makes life easier, and puts them at risk of one less arrest (disorderly conduct, disturbing the peace, etc)and it's a savvy tactic on their part, but it truly does not make them any less illegal.

The US does not owe anyone a living or an education. I am beside myself that anyone has the chutzpah (nerve, arrogance) to expect or demand this.

we do have that problem, shino, with polish workers, but turkish and other arab countries too. But esp. in Poland, many families just live on the minimum level and the taxes are so high that they wouldn't be able to feed their families. And besides, if it's the mexicans in the states or the polish in germany, it's mostly jobs no one else wants to do anyway. Many mexicans work as cleaners, childminders, and in other low paid jobs

I know, you have a point, HaMalach

Posted by: Texican at May 1, 2006 11:59 PM

I did answer your Q? on the tread you asked it?

Funny how they lie?

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO DESTROY ALL MULSUM TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM LET NOT THE WORLD BE DECEIVED BY THEM AMEN

PS
Let's look at how bad the Germans treat the Turks in their country? What is it about no school unless they give up their Turkish Citizanship and no aid either??

And how Schroder sold out Germany for money to the Russians??

To say that illegals "do the jobs no one else would do", you'd have to prove that these jobs went undone before the massive influx of these illegals.

Not true. Americans won't do these jobs because employers pay no more than they have to. They don't have to pay much because illegals take the jobs for cheap.

Employers pay more so costs go up? Fine, but massive amounts of cash aren't being sent out of the country and stay in the domestic economy.

Remove cheap illegal labor, the economy adjusts.

That's all academic. HaMalach had it.
We don't owe these people anything.
They screw up their own countries and don't want to fix them, that's their problem. I and other taxpayers are not obliged to bail them out, and at the same time risk my security in the process.

catherine, lol, where on earth did you hear that about giving up their turkish citizenship? HAHA. Good you're not our chancellor, Schröder was the best we ever had AND he stood up to the americans, which made me proud of him and Fischer

to the us government I mean. Sorry, didn't mean to offend any american, it's just your government I guess.

In any case, its a domestic American issue and we don't need to explain ourselves to anyone outside.

If one doesn't like it, one can stay away.
Unlike North Korea, we don't have snatch squads running around forcing people to become US citizens.

AND he stood up to the americans, which made me proud of him and Fischer
Posted by: melaniefromgermany at May 2, 2006 12:47 AM
==========

So did hitler and germany paid the price.

Right or wrong, as long as one stands up to the Americans? My, what a very perversely Ahmadinejadian attitude you have.

very unqualified comment, texican

melanie

All of the jobs performed by these invaders of America were performed by Americans that needed a full time job, by teenagers, by those that needed a second job and by the elderly. I started mowing grass when I was 9. I washed dishes starting at 12 years old. I worked at a gas station and in construction through high school and college to put myself through school.

These opportunities are no longer open to Americans because of the cheapening of America by these illegal invaders working for less than should be paid for the day's work.

These invaders need to go home and the employers need to be jailed and pay fines for employing illegals.

The Texican.

You've been working very hard, texican, I see your point and you've probably got the better insight in that matter than me, but that's still no reason for that other comment. I'm so sick of that.

very unqualified comment, texican
Posted by: melaniefromgermany at May 2, 2006 12:55 AM
+++++++++

Last time I reviewed the History Channel, Germany still went down in defeat to America, England and Europe.

Stand up to America. Suits me. America needs to pull out of all countires in Europe except for England.

Germany will not be able to defend itself againist Russia when Russia invades for the second time. It will be the mo's or Russia or both that conquer Germany in this century.

The Texican.

you sound rather conceited, texican and Eisenhund. As an american, you have no reason show off either

probably you're one of those idiots with white masks who burn crosses anyway, texican, if you're so hostile against non-americans

you sound rather conceited, texican and Eisenhund. As an american, you have no reason show off either
Posted by: melaniefromgermany at May 2, 2006 01:04 AM
++++++++++++

Americans are fed up with europeans and the european attitude.

America has pulled europe out of two world wars and we only get snide comments and deresion out out europe. America does not need europe to thrive, but europe needs america.

If America pulls out of the mid-east and europe, europe will burn just as france did less than six months ago.

Wake up and fight the real enemy instead of your unwarranted comments about America.

The Texican.

Hitler. KKK. Wanna call it a draw there?

Still waiting on answers to my points #1-3 above.

probably you're one of those idiots with white masks who burn crosses anyway, texican, if you're so hostile against non-americans
Posted by: melaniefromgermany at May 2, 2006 01:07 AM
+++++++++++++

I do not ware a mask or burn crosses. I do stand up for all Americans and America.

Your european attitude still shows.

The Texican.

texican, you know, I think you're right. I shouldn't have started with that. I'm sorry. We Germans have no right to criticize americans for committing atrocities.
I happen to be born as a German, so I should keep our mouth shut when your country leads an unjust war and murders thousands of innocent people. Germany killed millions, so, if you kill a few thousand, we should say it's ok. (uhm, if I got your reasoning right)
I apologize. In future, I just tell my conscience to shut up too, make a curtsey when I meet an american, kiss their feet and when they commit their next crimes, I'll just close my eyes, my mouth and my brain. And my heart. Right?
Thank you, texican, for showing me my place. ;)

No, maybe you should just know what you're talking about when you call something an "unjust war".

On second thought, yeah. You should keep your mouth shut. Sixty years does not absolve your people of the deliberate, cold-blooded, industrialized extermination of 12 million human beings, which would have been a drop in the bucket if we hadn't stopped you. Your smug, smartass post to Texican shows that apparently you think it does

If you are referring to Iraq as unjust or illegal, check the UN resolutions and the 1991 ceasefire agreement.

If the war was illegal, the UN would have fallen all over itself declaring it so.

Not starting wars because one is moral and not doing it because one can't are two different things. Every time you people have had the wherewithal do start trouble, you've done it.

Your nation was disarmed and kept weak to prevent it happening again, so get off your high horse.

melaniefromgermany

You, presumably, didn't have anything to do with WWII. Get over the guilt trip. Germany didn't invent bigotry, mass murder, starting wars, or genocide. But the way history is taught, and movies are made, someone could be led to believe that.

Now focus.

We don't treat illegal immigrants "badly." By law, they are entitled to arrest and deportation. We have laws for entry into the United States, and a very long waiting list.

What happens to the millions of people waiting to enter the U.S. legally when we allow anyone to walk over the border and stake a claim? I can assure you their time on the waiting list isn't going to get any shorter. I'd rather see citizenship for a few million people on the waiting list before giving amnesty to illegals.

Controlling the borders is only controversial when unpopular nations do it. I had to get a special French visa just to travel through by train. It was an anti-terrorism measure passed in the 1980's. Should I have screamed "racism" (the American race, I guess) and waved an American flag under the Eiffel Tower?

Every time you people have had the wherewithal do start trouble, you've done it.

"You people." Ouch. Didn't Ross Perot get in trouble with that?

I confess. I'm half German. And half the time I've had the wherewithal to start trouble, I've done it. ;)

With all due respect, this discussion passed the point of being productive when personal attacks started.

Civility is crucial. Even when it's way less fun. (Dammit.)

Yeah, Iraq's an "unjust war" unlike all the super fabulous wars of the past.

If you're looking for something unjust with regards to Iraq I'd start with the UN Oil-for-Food Program and Saddam's non-compliance with every UN resolution since the Gulf War. We ended the Gulf War with a cease-fire agreement, broken repeatedly by Saddam. Asking the UN for permission to fight wars is a horrible habit we need to break.

From yet another smart-ass European American-basher without any facts, evidence or respect:

"I happen to be born as a German, so I should keep our mouth shut when your country leads an unjust war and murders thousands of innocent people."

You know what? I'm not going to be diplomatic here.

It's been a long week and seeing as how I fear for the future of my country the last thing I have to do anymore is be polite to idiots that denegrate our armed forces and the average working American. If it wasn't for the United States, no persons on this planet would be living free right now -- well, except for perhaps Germany. Germany would be dicating to everyone, and I suppose deep down that is going to secretly rankle a few Nazi sympathizers. LOL.

You're right, Miss, you have no right to judge. You should have said that without even a breath of sarcasm and I wouldn't be so on the spot and mean, but seeing as how this is the usual fare one too many times, I have had it.

Take a hike and if you don't come back to these forums I know I'm hardly going to be alone in saying "good riddance."

Woah, this thread has really drifted. But Melaniefromgermany is too full of it, and should STFU if she doesn't live in the US.

Texican, Shinoliite & HaMalach

I agree with you. I came to the US in 1991 legally, and earned a green card in 2001 (plan to become a citizen next year). I couldn't have come illegally if I wanted to - from India, if one didn't/doesn't have a valid visa stamp on ones passport, one doesn't get to board an US bound flight - ticket or no ticket. And that's something one has to do everytime one travels in & out of the US. I believe the same would be true about other countries as well - one probably couldn't fly from Rio to Miami without valid documents.

That's what pisses me off about the gall the illegal immigrants have. First of all, because the US has a land border with Mexico, it's possible to sneak in. Then, because Mexico has a common border, their citizens have an ability, and therefore presumably, a right to do what citizens from other countries cannot do (unless they are in Mexico) - sneak in illegally, and then expect to receive social services, free schooling, etc. It's so bad in California that there are proposals to allow illegal residents to pay in-state tuition fees - something that an American outside the state doesn't have access too. Several emergency care centers in S CA have had to shut down because when illegals get sick, they go there for treatment, and because they are illegal, the centers are not re-imbursed by the government; nonetheless, they have to take in anyone who turns in.

to the us government I mean. Sorry, didn't mean to offend any american, it's just your government I guess. Posted by: melaniefromgermany

Go, piss up a rope! Don't give us the "we love America but we oppose Bush" garbage. Reason you supported Saddam in the war against US (politically, not militarily, or you would have had Dresden re-runs with nukes) was that Germany (and France) was big in that oil-for-palaces, er, oil-for-food scandal. And we remember how in France, the conspiracy book "The Big Lie" (my French is non-existant) which alleged that the US was behind 9/11 was a bestseller.

On this issue of illegal immigration, and others, like dealings with the Arabs and Islam, Bush has been a traitor, and the most moderate version of what you can expect. If the American people had their say, the only ones in would be those who are here legally.

What makes your assinine statements even uglier for us legal immigrants is that in creating a backlash against illegal immigration, any immigration reform that expedites the process of legal immigration is put on the back-burner, since it is now less popular. This makes it more likely that legal immigrants can become illegal due to visa expiries (due to long processes), and loss of jobs while on a visa (thus automatically making one illegal).

Not to mention that it's pissing on those of us who followed the laws in coming here and becoming permanent residents, in many cases waiting for 4 years or more before the process was complete. Since you don't live here, why don't you just butt out, and do what you do best these days - hand over whole districts over to Mohammedans, so that they can teach your teachers a thing or two.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/011265.php

Beagle, in my opinion the UN's approval is essential, I mean that's the point of international institutions. The USA was behind the oil-for-food program too, btw, but about the war, even Powell regretted it later, and Kofi Annan spoke some very clear words.
Thank you for your message earlier, some people are so self-righteous it's unbelievable. I am 17 years old and I never hurt anyone in my life. I can't believe he speaks to me this way. During the "Third Reich", my mom's parents were social democrats and were threatened themselves by the nazis. My dad is american and moved to Germany 20 y. ago, and my grandparents in Ga. would get rather cross if Mr. Eisenfaust accused them of murdering millions. Oh, before you start again, Eisenfaust, they were no slave owners either.

Quijybo:

You make valid points and I'm sure that many of the illegals are trying hard to put on a good face after all the racist and nationalist remarks they made last week, but the fact remains that they are in the same camp with the homosexual agenda, communists, and Islamic groups, feminists, etc, etc.

Illegal immigrants are a danger all unto themselves for countless reasons, but I'll state some quickly:

1) transmittable diseases brought here

2) sexual predators and other criminals we have no record of

3) costing us billions each year in taxes to take care of their health costs

4) exploding our population growth by intentionally having babies because of the idiotic rule "if the kid is born here it's an American" -- and it's not must Mexicans abusing that. Koreans have been doing it for years, too, and others no doubt. And here's the real kicker -- in time, those kids will have the right to bring their families here, so a 21 year old son/daughter of an illegal is like a cultural timebomb.

5) clogging our hospitals, emergency rooms with non-taxpaying illegals is a great way to cause strife for American citizens having to wait for medical attention and or

6) 29% of our prison system is comprised of illegals -- and over 50% in California

7) All these illegals are being supported by business owners that make huge profits by using them. So, the middle class is getting poorer and the elected officials are getting more constituents that don't know what the hell is going on -- easily controlled ahd gullible. Hell, most don't even speak English, so they'll just vote for who they're told to vote for more often than not.

8) The illegals allow the mujahedin to sneak across the borders with relative ease. Some cash to the right drug trafficer/smuggler and I'm sure they arrive here in style. Tunnels, trucks, small planes, you name it.

9) 22 million illegals jump to the front of the line, then what happens to all those folks that have been trying to get in legally? 22 millions + 3-5 family members brought over each and we're talking 80-100 million Mexicans in this country in less than five years!! That's tantamount to destroying the nation. This is an incredibly serious threat to the future of the USA, make no mistake.

10) Do I really have to go on? Our government is selling us out -- they act like they can't do anything about anything that really matters, but the fact is, they are intentionally allowing these changes so that the fatcats in Washington get even fatter. It's so damn obvious by now: "Taxation without representation." There's going to be a huge backlash in the nation soon from the American people. I hear the rumbling everywhere and a lot of that is coming from me each day.

Eisenfaust? Iron Fist. I like that one.

I don't really care about your family history. You want to drop collective guilt on America but don't want to take it? Too bad.

That, however, is not the issue. You talk as a typical smug America basher and you show your age with that childish reinterpretation of my name, melanieknowitall.

If you want to converse with adults, conduct yourself as one.

You live a cushy life of freedom because of people like me. Although I didn't join the Army to provide Europeans with security, free health care, and free college, y'all got the benefit of it.

Your petulant, arrogant, holier-than-thou, vilification of America is insulting, and if you don't like hearing it back, you should watch your manners.

Listen to yourself, Eisenhund, and then tell me who's behaving like a child. I didn't say all americans were to blame, I even apologized after a comment that could be interpreted in that way.
You were bashing all germans, and I answered to that, because there's no such thing as a collective guilt. Do we have to insult each other here??

Melanie,

Some people were somewhat out of line. I'm glad to read that you are 17, because that explains some of your response. When I was your age, I felt something of the same responses. I know I refused to feel guilty about slavery in the US, because my relatives came over at the turn of the 20th c and we never had slaves. However, after a while, and I think it's better younger than older, you realize that there is such a thing as collective guilt and responsibility of citizens of a country, even if individuals differ in their responsibility. You have to come to terms with the fact that Hitler and his Third Reich were a terrible blot on the German people; it's a stain and an ugly inheritance that you cannot walk away from. The sooner you study these issues in depth (you can learn a lot here) the better off you'll be. The more you look evil in the face and understand it for what it is, the better off you'll be. You also need to understand that the UN is a very corrupt organization, even though it was founded with good intentions. Study its actions and activities. Many are inexcusable and very hypocritical.

Have to disagree with you on one point, HaMalach.

If melaniefromgermany is old enough to comment or be insulting on a public forum, she's old enough to take the responses without acting like a poor little victim or playing that tired old "oh yeah? well you are too!" tactic. Most people here, me included, don't tend to get 'out of line' unless someone posts something that smacks of moral-equivalence or tu quoque.

The stereotypical "European attitude" has become tiresome. If people think this is an anti-America site or one where one can freely run with the 'America is no better' line, they're mistaken.

No one is asking Euro's to fall all over themselves worshipping the US. Just knock off the b.s. We don't sit around harangueing Germany for its less than stellar recent history as an American "ally".

If posters such as this young lady have a problem with the US, its actions overseas, or (though not really her business) its domestic policies, she should take it up somewhere else.

HaMalach,
I agree the UN made many mistakes, too, but I disagree with your other statement. I think there is a difference between collective guilt and responsibility, which also means responsibility that such things never happen again.
In history classes in german schools, they start to stuff that collective guilt thing into the heads of the kids when they're 9. They show them movies and confront them with all the facts, they show them pictures of dead bodies. When they're 9. No doubt some people here will approve of it, but for me, it's wrong. Throughout school, you're drenched in that feeling of guilt for something other people did who only happened to be born in the same country like yourself. At some point, I had enough of that and I realized how unfair and ridiculous it was.
And besides, as long as the germans feel so terribly guilty for nazi crimes, muslims will have the best argument on earth to force us to accept their faith and traditions like forced marriages and "honor" killings. "Now, it starts again. - Look they call us criminals just because we marry off our daughters with 13. Bad Germans. It used to be the Jews, now it's the Muslims." As long as that guilty attitude exists and every idiot can call us nazis without anyone talking back, every protest against "tradition" and "religion", as inhuman as it may be, can be interpreted as fascism.

In any case, I'm now desisting from any more off-topic postings or personal messages to Ms. melaniefromgermany. I would appreciate it if she would do the same.

HaMalach,
I agree the UN made many mistakes, too, but I disagree with your other statement. I think there is a difference between collective guilt and responsibility, which also means responsibility that such things never happen again.
In history classes in german schools, they start to stuff that collective guilt thing into the heads of the kids when they're 9. They show them movies and confront them with all the facts, they show them pictures of dead bodies. When they're 9. No doubt some people here will approve of it, but for me, it's wrong. Throughout school, you're drenched in that feeling of guilt for something other people did who only happened to be born in the same country like yourself. At some point, I had enough of that and I realized how unfair and ridiculous it was.
And besides, as long as the germans feel so terribly guilty for nazi crimes, muslims will have the best argument on earth to force us to accept their faith and traditions like forced marriages and "honor" killings. "Now, it starts again. - Look they call us criminals just because we marry off our daughters with 13. Bad Germans. It used to be the Jews, now it's the Muslims." As long as that guilty attitude exists and every idiot can call us nazis without anyone talking back, every protest against "tradition" and "religion", as inhuman as it may be, can be interpreted as fascism.

HaMalach,
I agree the UN made many mistakes, too, but I disagree with your other statement. I think there is a difference between collective guilt and responsibility, which also means responsibility that such things never happen again.
In history classes in german schools, they start to stuff that collective guilt thing into the heads of the kids when they're 9. They show them movies and confront them with all the facts, they show them pictures of dead bodies. When they're 9. No doubt some people here will approve of it, but for me, it's wrong. Throughout school, you're drenched in that feeling of guilt for something other people did who only happened to be born in the same country like yourself. At some point, I had enough of that and I realized how unfair and ridiculous it was.
And besides, as long as the germans feel so terribly guilty for nazi crimes, muslims will have the best argument on earth to force us to accept their faith and traditions like forced marriages and "honor" killings. "Now, it starts again. - Look they call us criminals just because we marry off our daughters with 13. Bad Germans. It used to be the Jews, now it's the Muslims." As long as that guilty attitude exists and every idiot can call us nazis without anyone talking back, every protest against "tradition" and "religion", as inhuman as it may be, can be interpreted as fascism.

In any case, I'm now desisting from any more off-topic postings or personal messages to Ms. melaniefromgermany. I would appreciate it if she would do the same.

I'm Actually going to write a comment on the article now, please feel free to keep up your discussion, though I expect everyone to turn on me.

This scares me slightly, because if what the adherents of this site believed was widely believed every muslim in America would be arrested under that premise. Not to say that this kid wasn't a sicko in his own right.

And I do apologize for coming off harshly, melaniefromgermany.

sorry for the 3 messages, that was Robert's fault, not mine

lol

Cut her a little slack, Eisenhund. She is a kid, she acted like a kid. Technically you're correct but she doesn't see "into" things yet. Hopefully she will. I scare myself by what I was like at her age. I thought I knew a lot, and I knew very little.
***

Infidel Pride, if you think California is bad, I read somewhere that in New York (City I think), some schools voted illegal aliens (immigrants) rights to sit on the school boards. Headache!!!

But, to lighten this post up a bit, let me recommend to you, if you haven't seen it, Robin Williams in "Moscow on the Hudson". Get the video. He's a Russian who becomes an American citizen. His defection in Bloomingdale's (the department store) is truly one of the funniest scenes I remember in a movie.

I have not read all comments, the topic seems to have been hijacked by a Tiny Moe; so excuse if someone has already mentioned: wasn't there a charge of "loitering with intent" on the books not long ago, or still there in UK? I need a lawyer.

ok. I didn't mean to offend you either, Eisenhund.

Well, HaMalach, when I was 17, I had large men in green suits and funny hats loudly informing me that I knew very little in no uncertain terms, most of which I cannot repeat here.

This isn't "turning on you", MerryWeather, but what exactly do these people have to do before we are allowed to defend ourselves?

Keep in mind, this guy and his fellow-thinkers aren't mistaking jihad for community service. Its not like picking up lite beer when you meant to grab the regular stuff. One kinda has to go out of one's way to get into this whole killing-for-allah racket.

Think R. Lee Ermey in "Full Metal Jacket"
>:-P

Agreed about the guy being out of his skull, but this site makes it seem that all muslims intend action (violent). Let's face it, that's just not true. The idea that you can be arrested for intention is a slippery slope. What's next? Arrest by virtue of political affiliation?

Actually 'conspiracy to commit' is an arrestable offense and has been for a long time.

I think you got a point, merry. Maybe the true terror of islam is happening in the family, against women and girls.

When someone informs you that they intend to kill you, you are not obliged to wait for them to do it. That mistake has been made in the past.

Based on a confession from a teenager! Have you seen these guys in action? They could get you to confess to killing your grandmother while she's standing alive in the same room with you. Especially when you admit to having fantasized about something Geez. The evidence was based on admiration for mujahideen and a warrior's prayer. This could easily have had more to do with the way he was raised. I should have stated this earlier, I'm a Muslim (rather puzzled by the website) I grew up in a uber-conservative "Usama Bin Laden Rocks!" environment and trust me, it's easy as a youth to get swept up into the brainwashing you get. It doesn't ever mean you act on it.

Let us also not forget the fact that he was not found guilty by the prosecutors, the judge, or the FBI. He was found guilty by the jury. Getting into the habit of questioning jury verdicts, while sometimes warranted, is also a slippery slope. We have appeals courts for that.

MerryWeather: "this site makes it seem that all muslims intend action (violent). Let's face it, that's just not true." Are you new here Merry, you might have missed this on the way in, under "Why Jihad Watch?":

"Because the West is facing a concerted effort by Islamic jihadists, the motives and goals of whom are largely ignored by the Western media, to destroy the West and bring it forcibly into the Islamic world -- and to commit violence to that end even while their overall goal remains out of reach. That effort goes under the general rubric of jihad.

Jihad (in Arabic, "struggle") is a central duty of every Muslim. Modern Muslim theologians have spoken of many things as jihads: the struggle within the soul, defending the faith from critics, supporting its growth and defense financially, even migrating to non-Muslim lands for the purpose of spreading Islam. But violent jihad is a constant of Islamic history. Many passages of the Qur'an and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad are used by jihad warriors today to justify their actions and gain new recruits. No major Muslim group has ever repudiated the doctrines of armed jihad. The theology of jihad, which denies unbelievers equality of human rights and dignity, is available today for anyone with the will and means to bring it to life.

Jihad Watch is dedicated to bringing public attention to the role that jihad theology and ideology plays in the modern world, and to correcting popular misconceptions about the role of jihad and religion in modern-day conflicts. We hope to alert people of good will to the true nature of the present global conflict."

True, but juries are comprised of average people, consequently of average intelligence. Had he been let off you would be lamenting the fact that the prosecution gets no second bite at the apple to override the jury. Ultimately I respect jury verdicts to the extent that I actually condsider OJ and Micheal Jackson not guilty. However people are easily swayed by fear. Celebrity too.

Read it, and the FAQ. I judge it by the comments left by people, by the people it attracts, as venue and forum, which are overwhelmingly so filled with vitriol I see no reason why even I, as someone who love to see violence end, should have much to do with you.

I agree, merry, this verdict is very strange. and 39 years!! Seems very unfair to me. I just hope they didn't hurt him to force him to confess. Wouldn't surprise me, though. If the cia and the military do it, why not the fbi?

not you personally

With all due respect, I would appreciate it if you would not tell me what I "would be lamenting".

As for juries being composed of "average" people with "average" intelligence, I've never heard of IQ tests being given during the jury selection.

Juries are made up of 12 individuals, some with average intelligence, some higher, some lower.

Sorry for placing words in your brain. I have a penchant for statistics (I'm a biologist)- likely average, trust me- the odds of drawing a bell curve out of only 12 AFTER the lawyers get to hack off anyone who actually doesn't have their mind made up: tiny. I've served on jury, everyone wasn't dumb, but I had to explain probable cause many a time (they didn't need to know but wanted to anyway).
Like I said I respect juries, but appeals courts correct things based on technicalities.

why is there a jury anyway? Shouldn't the judge or a panel of judges decide over a person's fate? Judges who actually studied law and not some randomly picked jury members?

Some countries have that policy, I don't like it because judges get used to throwing the book at defendents or the opposite. Juries are much easier to draw impartially, but in the US fear of terrorism and the endless stream of media proclaiming doom makes it easy for the jury to convict.

MerryWeather can you tell us what you think vitrol is? what words are falsely said about the Koran?
as for the years this man will spend in jail, he is still alive, will keep all his limbs and appendages, justice was done here.

The thing is, having to explaining something like probable cause could just point to inexperience on the part of the individual in that particular subject. Just as you could probably tell me a thing or two that I don't know about biology that you think is pretty elemental, I could probably rattle off some, to you, esoteric tactical infantry concepts that I would expect any private to know.
I agree about the part on appeals courts, because you're right. My father, however, was in the criminal justice system (in front of the bars, not behind them), and you'd be surprised how many "technicalities" convicts and their lawyers can come up with.

why is there a jury anyway?

Magna Carta

http://www.7cs.com/Magna-Trans.html

http://www.magnacharta.com/articles/article04.htm

Judges who actually studied law and not some randomly picked jury members?

That statement implies that criminal proceedings are a purely technical matter, which must be at odds with the notion that they are, or should be, consonant with natural justice.

but 39 years is just ridiculous for a crime that never happened. if you get 39 years for that, what do you get for murder?

-melaniefromgermany

I don't know what its like in Germany, but in America, judges have a tremendous amount of power as compared to their place in the system. As it is, their ratio of authority to accountability is one of the most skewed of any profession. They're also human, and tend to have their own prejudices and pet crimes, despite the fact that they're not supposed to.

I'm not even going to touch that one.

lol yojimbo, the magna carta is nearly as old as the quran. What did they know about justice in 1215?
And "natural justice" seems very arbitrary, apart from the fact that also judges should have common sense

Sorry I got signed out somehow.
For Lulu-
“Yes, they do slaughter us like they slaughter their animals, because we are nothing more than animals to them.”

“Blood sacrifice was always used to appease the gods. Islam is paganism at its bloodiest worst.”

“Even nazis hid the nature of their crimes. Muslims boast about them.”

“Mohammedans kill with a perverted lust. The Koran is full of it.”

And so on and so forth.

but how can they have so much power if the jury decides?

They decide what the jury sees and hears and get to make their decision on.

That is hardly a sensible answer, Melanie, to a courteous response to your question.

And the point about the Koran is its content not the date when it was composed.

I feel compelled to add that "natural justice seems very (sic) arbitrary" is a flippant comment, as well.

I see. here, the judge is the only one accountable all the time, in minor cases he or she decides about the verdict alone, and with felony crimes there are two people with him, so that's a kind of jury, they can advise him and they decide together, but he can overrule them

I saw what you posted on other topics, yojimbo, so that's a bit rich of you, I daresay.

MerryWeather: "Read it, and the FAQ." Funny, I can't seem to find the JW FAQ...but you seem to be a nice person. Ever considered reforming Islam?

Judges also decide on warrants and can try cases as well.

This has all gotten rather theoretical. This guy wasn't arrested and charged for trying to join the little league team. I'm half Irish with an Irish name and have never been accused of or investigated for being a member of the IRA, even during those too few times I managed to get to England and Scotland (which was during the '80's when the Boyos were running around blowing up everything they could get at). I also don't run around plotting the overthrow of the British government, planning on killing British citizens, or even rah-rahing when those fenian bastards murder someone.

lol @ rah-rahing

Sorry, by FAQ I meant spencer's responses to questions. More than considered it, doing it the only way it can be done. Slowly, and without non-muslims who would throw my credibility out the window. Of, course I don;t believe it's reform, I believe it is the religion the way it is meant to be practised.
I encourage the Muslims I meet to look at things a certain way and I give sermons at my mosque. However, like I said, this website it far from helpful and deviates from its stated goal.

Its copyrighted. So, if you use it, you'll have to send me a retainer.
Better yet, give it to a dog charity.

Yes Eisenhund, but he was essentially charged with a vague "some sort of attack", no specifics.

If you're Irish, come into the paaaarlour,
there's a welcome there for you,
if your name is Timothy or Pat,
as long as you come rah-raaaahing,
there's a welcome on the mat.

Hmm.

Must be in the blood. Some sorta subconscious, collective, Celtic, genetic, memory thing.
The dog charity thing is still a good cause, though.

lol. dog charity is great

Assalamau-Laikum all,

Haven't had time to read this thread well...hubby been too ill and needed looking after ....so I'thought I'd relax a bit by reading JW.

Interesting that this muslim will be in prision for upto 30 years for having done "nothing" but is convicted on intent. Ofcourse intent never killed anybody....and I not sure that having jihadi books & videos (vile though that they are...and so is child porno...but there is plenty of that in your country too) is against US criminal law.

This is the start of the erosion of your civil liberties...and you are all applauding this? Well I am surprised about it.

I'll bet that this will start and bite you deep in the bum in the future.

Opps have to go ...coughing started up again!

The charges on which he was convicted don't seem so vague to me. I am neither a lawyer, nor did I watch the trial, and though 'providing material support' may have some built-in wiggle room, lying to federal agents is pretty cut-and-dried.

Keep in mind, he hasn't received 39 years. He can get up to that number. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for this clown. He knew what he was doing, and if he didn't think it was wrong, that doesn't say much good for his character or ability to make moral decisions. Its not like he was herding goats in the mountains of Whereinthehellamistan. He lived in America and wanted to kill Americans, or at least looked up to those who do.

hope your husband gets well soon, Naseem.
That's really hard to understand. When a woman who's threatened by her ex goes to the police and tell them, they say they cant do anything before he actually attacks her in some way, and here it works? Seems a bit paranoid to me.

And if I told you how many kids are exactly like him, that I know, that I've met... If you think he was any real danger, then the world will end tomorrow. He was a teen, they're raised, not born into their ideology. He may have confessed in the hopes of of some kind of teen angst driven notion of martydom. Remember his age people, he's looking for a cause like so many. The teen who become extreme environmentalists and advocate eco-terrorism grow up.

what a difference, though. A few weeks ago, there was a 20-year-old man charged with murder of his sister, because she had lived in a "western style", he told the judge he did it and how proud he was for shooting her in the back of her head. He got 9 years, after that he can celebrate her death with his family. He'd deserve those 39 years.

I don't know about you MerryWeather, but when I was that age, neither my friends' nor my idea of teenage rebellion was being a terrorist and murduring innocent civilians. We wore lotsa black and listened to Industrial music. There needs to be a line, over which this b.s. is no longer acceptable. If you don't like it here, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!.

I am frankly sick and tired of people making excuses for scumbags living in my country, telling me that they hate me and want to kill me. Where else in the world would you expect the people to put up with this? Very few people in my life have ever tried to threaten me, none of them will tell you that it was a pleasant experience for them.

Melanie, 39 years, let alone 9, seems rather light for ending his sister's life. She doesn't get to come back.

That's true, Eisenhund, but 10 was the highest possible sentence, because he's under 21. And she has a 5-year-old son who doesn't understand where his mum has gone.

That's unfortunate, to say the least.

Unfortunate indeed. Perhaps sentence switching is in order. Eisenhund, I happen to be very comfortable here, as imperfect as this country is, I have lived in others and would not live anywhere else. It is so close to being much better than it is now. I do not like my country's imperfections and I seek to bring the country as close to perfect as possible, so sue me. I am telling you what you already now: that people are brainwashed into thinking a certain way. After keeping him locked up for up to 39 years for thinking about a plot, he will emerge not reformed, but further dedicated.
While you may be a big, tough, guy not susceptible to threats, some things are beyond your personal ability to control. While I would love to see you battle Islamic extremism with an axe in one hand and the tenets of democracy (or whatever you happen to believe in) in the other (and lose); it's just not going to happen that way. It will destroy itself. Trust me when I say anything that kills or maims most of its adherents will do that to itself.

I do not apologize for this person, but he isn't exactly stable in the head, and not exactly Usama bin Laden material either. 39 years is a long time for cooking up an outlandish scheme. You want to treat the root of the problem? Solve freedom of speech issues so others can get their opinions expressed besides the dictatorial regimes that make whispers of jihad so alluring. Wasting your time with singular stories of individual actions by nutso's solves nothing. This is my primary objection to the site, it seems to exist to villify Islam as condoning the actions of crazies. 27% of the world's population allows for a lot of stupid people. I advise you to spend your time doing more than merely discuss things with people who, for the most part, agree with you. This is my final post on this misconceived site since I must pray in one of my "highly targetable [sic] facilities" as someone on this site quaintly put it.

take care, merry

I'm so glad to know that you hope that I'll lose in fighting for my country.

I don't believe that was what he meant, Eisenhund. He just said it's the wrong way, in his view.

Merry is another Mohammedan deflector.

We don't 'vilify Islam' here on this site, Islam itself is vile and Islam is as Islam does. Islam is the 'root-cause' of evil, so we don't need to look elsewhere.

Thanks for trying!

He can think what he likes.
He can even bury his head in the soil and deny the problem.

He doesn't even have to believe me when I say that a substantial percentage of the population are getting fed up with people trying to tell us we have to understand these psychos or change our country to make them happy, or that its our fault we have these blood-thirsty vermin running around.

He can sit and make judgments 'til his mahdi comes, for all I care.

Most of all, a majority of Americans are getting tired of the threats and excuses that all seem to come from the same source.

MerryWeather
I said:
“Yes, they do slaughter us like they slaughter their animals, because we are nothing more than animals to them.”

You failed to include a very relevant part of that post where I referred to Mohammed Atta's instructions for 9/11. Am I to suppose there were sheep on those flights? Or are some 'infidels' animals and not others? Here's the relevant quote which you omitted:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,560773,00.html

13) Check your weapon before you leave and long before you leave. (You must make your knife sharp and must not discomfort your animal during the slaughter).

In saying what I said, did I somehow draw an incorrect inference? Here's another example of 'infidel as animal' (without the slaughter part this time, I suppose we should be grateful for small mercies):
http://pedestrianinfidel.blogspot.com/2005/11/you-infidels-are-corrupt-animals-sez.html

Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati who heads the powerful Guardians Council and is a close adviser to Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei told a gathering of Revolutionary Guards commanders, “Human beings, apart from Muslims, are animals who roam the earth and engage in corruption.

I also said:

“Blood sacrifice was always used to appease the gods. Islam is paganism at its bloodiest worst

Jihad is an act of worship in Islam.
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/jihaad/0008.htm
From my looking at this Dîn and my long experience with its signs and acts of worship, I find that the most difficult act of worship upon the soul is Jihâd. Therefore (due to its difficulty) it is the topmost part of Islâm, and the bountiful rewards which Allâh has prepared for the Mujâhidîn are no passing coincidence

It also says so here, I cannot paste it because it is PDF,
http://counterterror.typepad.com/the_counterterrorism_blog/files/NQ_955.pdf

What kind of a god requires as an act of worship to him the slaughter of human beings? You decide.

But the main point here is CHEAP LABOR!!! That's why there are 12,000,000 illegals here and all commentary which focuses on this problems as if this were a nation of miscreants who did this for some sort of a lark are beside the point and pointless. The fact is... more than ten million citizens of the nation to our immediate south somehow have ended up in our country. Now.. shouldn't we take this up with the government and ruling elite of Mexico? DEMAND that these people be peacefully repatriated and unharmed and that ALL the things that we are complaining about being overtaxed in our country... healthcare, education, jobs, infrastructure... are the right of these people to have IN MEXICO!!! Paid for by Mexico's potential oil wealth and the wealth and land holdings of it's elite families.

But what we saw yesterday was not just people in the streets but thousands of employers shutting down yesterday KNOWING that much or most of their workforce were illegals and could not be legally hired in the US according to our laws which many employers not only disregard and violate at will BUT these employers are also complicit in encouraging and bringing these illegals into the country in the first place as i don't believe 12,000,000 people got here running across the desert or hiding in car trunks.

Reconquista is just the extreme end of a continuum of attitudes you'll find about any land grab in history. People don't sneak across borders to hold esoteric political opinions. This is about Wal-Mart getting it's floors mopped and it's shelves stocked for below minimum wage. And the real story of these protests is NOT a bunch of misguided angry demanding Mexicans in the streets, it's US business, small and big, sounding a warning shot to middle class America. Get rid of the pesky labor laws or deal with THIS alternative.

melanie,

A while back, you wrote, "why is there a jury anyway? Shouldn't the judge or a panel of judges decide over a person's fate? Judges who actually studied law and not some randomly picked jury members?"

Our Supreme Court is supposed to be composed of the top jurists in the U.S. For an example of what a panel of judges can do, research the Dred Scott case (1857).

Jay:

I believe there are similarities between the criminal justice system in the US and Canada. If so, persons accused of indictable offences may have the option of having their trial heard by a judge alone or a judge and jury "of peers". Defence counsel will advise one way or another, depending on whether how hard it will be to raise reasonable doubt in the mind of a judge as opposed to a panel of twelve carefully selected non-lawyers.

Melanie, why are there so many hispanic immigrates illegally coming to the U.S.? Because the U.S. government is a pushover, (IE-PC) and the mexican government is impotent, in not taking care of their people. It is animal nature to take the path of least resistance.

There is evidence to show that Communist sympathizers are still trying to overthrow our government. What better way than to become a journalist? Swarthmore College was once called "the Kremlin on the Crum" both for the liberal journalists it produces and the stream that runs through it.

Recent protests have been partly organized and funded by an outfit that goes by the acronym ANSWER, a left-wing group. Just like the Palestinians claim about Israel,the Mexicans call the southwest U.S. occupied territory and are trying to get control of it. When does the terrorism and bomb-throwing start?

If we can weed out intended terrorists before the killing starts then we are better off. If a person points a gun at you and says he intends to kill you, do you let him have the first shot to see if he really means it?

LOL. Considering that 1) there is no separation of Mosque and state in Islam 2) that any "good" Muslim can become a "problem" Muslim in a matter of minutes if given the REAL TRUTH in the Qur'an to chew on and (here's the big one) 3) Islam has ALWAYS been militant and at war with the world until such times as they are weak and have to consolidate and regroup (historical fact -- I refer you to the Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)) --- considering those 3 points alone, I know I would sleep a lot easier if Muslims suddenly packed their bags and left the United States tomorrow.

Do I want people rounded up and put behind barbed wire yet? No.

Do I take that option off the table in the event of another 9/11 or (God help us) much worse?

HELL NO.

Let me be very, very clear right now. If you threaten me, my family, my friends, my nation, my unborn children, my FUTURE -- be prepared for one hell of a negative response.

Patty-cake time ended a long time ago. Muslims worldwide have the start making changes NOW (like a real Reformation) -or- the war that has been being waged upon us in secret for the past 100 years will finally become known to all, and then the gloves come off.

I know I'm a hardliner. The nickname ain't Daisyplanter.

He was not convicted for his thoughts - that would be illegal - but for giving material support (however good or meager) to terrorists.

The LA Times here is just stupid.

But because thought is properly not a crime, even thought that may lead to terrorism, I again recommend that when enough Americans finally wake up to this violent, oppressive tyranny of the mind & body called Islam, that efforts toward a constitutional amendment be vigorously made to outlaw this cult of Muhammad and close down all the mosques. This will be a hard sell to our sellout politicians, which is why it is urgent to inform as much of the public as possible about the real Islam that moderates are trying to hijack (not other way around).

Here are some specifics. I don't think anyone, even under duress, gives six different addresses "to tell people what they want to hear". War is deception. But the US is missing the big guys. Why is that?

***

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=64599

Evidence at trial established that, during a period of months between October 2003 and November 2004, defendant Hamid Hayat attended a jihadi training camp in Pakistan and ultimately returned to the United States with the intent to wage jihad upon receipt of orders.

According to evidence adduced at trial, between March 2003 and August 2003, defendant Hamid Hayat, during the course of numerous recorded conversations with a cooperating witness, pledged his belief in violent jihad, pledged to go to a jihadi training camp and indicated that he, in fact, was going to jihadi training.

On May 30, 2005, while enroute back to the United States from Pakistan, defendant Hamid Hayat's plane was diverted to Narita, Japan. When questioned by the FBI on that day, defendant Hamid Hayat concealed the fact that he had received jihadi training, and that he was returning to the United States for the purpose of waging jihad. Hamid Hayat was thereafter permitted to return to the United States.

On June 3 and 4, 2005, when questioned by the FBI in Lodi and Sacramento, California, defendant Hamid Hayat again attempted to conceal the fact that he had received jihadi training, and that he had returned to the United States for the purpose of waging jihad.

On June 4, 2005, after advisement and waiver of his rights, defendant Hamid Hayat admitted during three separate interviews, including two videotaped interviews, that he attended a jihadi training camp in Pakistan in 2000 for a few days. Hayat admitted that he attended a camp in 2003/2004 located in the vicinity of Balakot, Pakistan, and actively trained at this camp for approximately three to six months. Hayat further admitted that he was trained for jihad, that he came to the United States for jihad, and that he was prepared to wage jihad upon the receipt of orders.

As part of the evidence at trial, a government expert regarding Pakistani extremist groups opined that jihadi training camps, in fact, existed and operated in various parts of Pakistan from 2000 to 2005, and specifically opined that a series of camps were located in the Balakot area of Pakistan, including a well known Jaish-e-Muhammed camp in Balakot. In addition, a Department of Defense imagery expert opined that he was "confident" that certain images of buildings and a location in the vicinity of Balakot were, in fact, a militant training camp.

The government further introduced a series of incriminating writings seized from Hamid Hayat on the day of his arrest on June 5, 2005 and the Hayat home during execution of a federal search warrant on June 7, 2005.

Agents seized an Arabic "jihadi supplication" from Hamid Hayat's wallet stated, "Oh Allah we place you at their throats and we seek refuge in you from their evils." According to a government expert in Islamic law, the supplication was of the type that would be carried by a warrior/jihadi who perceived himself as being engaged in war for God against an enemy.

Agents also seized a "jihadi scrapbook" bearing the name of Hamid Hayat. The scrapbook included a series of newspaper articles (including articles from well-known extremist groups in Pakistan) that extolled the military efforts of the Taliban, expressed support for Osama Bin Laden and other known terrorists, and espoused virulent anti-American sentiments.

Agents also recovered a June, 2000 magazine from Jaish-e- Muhammed, a well known extemist group in Pakistan. The magazine included various articles supportive of violent jihad, such as an editorial by Masood Azhar arguing that Pakistani men should focus on jihad rather than sports, profiles of jihadi martyrs who lost their lives in the disputed Kashmir region, and an article about the mujahideen movement in the Philippines which suggested that it was the religious and moral responsibility of Islam to help out mujahideen wherever they are fighting.

Agents also recovered two Urdu books by Jaish-e-Muhammed leader Masood Azhar entitled the Virtues of Jihad (2000) and Windows from the Prison (2003). In these books Azhar, among other things, extolled the concept of violent jihad, suggested that violent jihad was the duty of every Muslim and a central element of Islam, and suggested that violent jihad should be waged around the world including countries like the United States. These themes were repeated in HAMID HAYAT's statements to the cooperating witness.

The maximum penalty for all charges against defendant Hamid Hayat is 39 years of imprisonment. Sentencing for defendant Hamid Hayat is set for July 14, 2006 before United States Judge Garland E. Burrell.
***
http://ktla.trb.com/news/la-me-lodi1may01,0,7672997.story?coll=ktla-news-1
The arrests of Hayat; his father, Lodi ice-cream truck driver Umer Hayat; and Lodi's two Pakistani imams last June were the first fruit of a terrorism deterrence program that began several years ago after a U.S.-led invasion destroyed Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan.

Law enforcement and intelligence officials in Washington said terrorist training then shifted to three banned militant Pakistani political groups: Hakat-ul-Mujahedin, Jaish-e-Mohammed and Lashkar-e-Taiba. The three had close ties to the Taliban in Afghanistan and, with tacit approval of the Pakistani government, conducted terrorist activities against India in disputed Kashmir.

The government knew that among those attending madrasas — religious schools — affiliated with the banned groups were Pakistani Americans such as Hayat, whose parents sent them to their homeland for religious education. After Sept. 11, 2001, the U.S. government launched a program to identify and investigate these Americans.

Hamid Hayat, who was born in Stockton but spent half his life in Pakistan, was the first to be arrested. Earlier this month, a Pakistani American and a Bangladeshi were arrested in Atlanta and charged with the same crime: providing material support for terrorism by attending a training camp in Pakistan.

One of the banned groups featured in the Hayat case — Jaish-e-Mohammed — was headed by firebrand author Masood Azhar, whose popular books "Virtues of Jihad" and "Windows from the Prison" were found among Hayat's possessions.

A government expert testified that a Jaish-e-Mohammed training camp was located near Balakot, a city about five hours north of Islamabad, Pakistan's capital. The camp operated at the time Hayat said he trained in the area for three to six months in 2003 and 2004.

To prove that Hayat provided material support for terrorists, the government had to show that he attended a terrorist training camp, received weapons or physical training that could be used for terrorism, and returned with the intent to commit violence against his fellow citizens.

The government did its most thorough job on the first of the three tests.

During his long interrogation at the FBI office in Sacramento, Hayat, fatigued and wrapped in a blanket, gave six different locations for the training camp he attended. Besides Balakot, they included two sites in Afghanistan; one in Kashmir; one near his family home in Behboodi, Pakistan; and another near Islamabad.

In a separate interrogation, his father, Umer Hayat, named a camp in Rawalpindi, home of the Pakistani military command, as the one his son attended. Umer Hayat said the driver of his father-in-law, a politician who runs a large madrasa in Rawalpindi, chauffeured him to that camp.

In some of the most bizarre testimony of the trial, the father said the training, including firearms practice, took place in an enormous, deep basement where trainees masked like "Ninja turtles" practiced pole-vaults and executions with scimitars.

But because the father and son had separate juries, none of this was heard by Hamid Hayat's jurors. As a result, the government was able to try the two men using different locations for the alleged terrorist camp. Umer Hayat's case, in which he was charged with lying to federal agents, ended in a mistrial.

In its original affidavit, the government listed the camp attended by Hamid Hayat as the one near Rawalpindi. But the camp about which Hamid Hayat gave the most information during his interrogation was the one near Balakot. It is also the one that best fit the government's theory.

It all came together for the prosecution during the testimony of Pentagon satellite image expert Eric Benn. In a skillful presentation, prosecutor David Deitch led Benn through questioning that included maps, satellite photographs and — on a screen that dropped down in the half-darkened courtroom — outtakes from the FBI videotape in which Hayat recalled how he got to the Balakot camp.

To the jurors, Deitch had presented a convincing case that Hayat had actually been to a facility of some kind near Balakot. Benn testified that based on satellite images and Hayat's description, he was 60% to 70% sure it was a "militant training" camp. This seriously undercut Hayat's main defense that he had never attended a training camp and that the comments he made during interrogation were lies intended to tell the agents what they wanted to hear.

In the hours of secretly recorded conversations with informant Naseem Khan, who was paid $230,000 to spy on Lodi Muslims, Hayat always sounded reluctant and wary when training was brought up. Khan called him a coward. Even his father described him as extremely lazy.

As for what type exactly the Balakot camp was, what Hayat did there and what he was supposed to do in the way of jihad after his return, the government case was not nearly as strong.

But the defense, locked into the position that Hayat didn't go at all, did not attack the government case where it appeared most vulnerable.

To describe the camp, the government introduced a former Pakistani police chief, Hassan Abbas, who said he had heard of a camp near Balakot that was affiliated with Jaish-e-Mohammed and Azhar, the jihadi author whose books were found in Hayat's garage apartment.

A defense expert on Pakistan, University of Oregon professor Anita Weiss, testified that there were many religious camps in Pakistan that had nothing to do with terrorism but were more like Baptist summer camps in the United States.

Jurors believed Abbas.