An Australian judge recently ruled that books that teach Sharia supremacism, the subjugation of Jews and Christians, and the ultimate replacement of Australian law with Islamic law are not "hate books" and can be sold freely in Australia.
Now more such books have been found, and they raise some important questions.
From the Herald Sun, with thanks to Rosie:
ISLAMIC hate books that advocate jihad have been found in Melbourne bookstores.The Federal Government wants to create an offence to outlaw the glorification of suicide bombing, the Sunday Herald Sun said.
Attorney-General Phillip Ruddock said the Government "did not want people encouraged to go out and think about suicide bombing on the basis that it's going to benefit them in the afterlife".
Will he then outlaw the Qur'an, since it promises Paradise to those who "kill and are killed" for Allah (9:111)?
The books were found at the Islamic Clothing and Book Store in Coburg and Brunswick's Michael Street mosque.World Arrogance, a book written by Professor Ahmad Zidan, is anti-Semitic and said Western culture bred venereal disease, broken homes, suicide and homosexuality.
Another book, Jihad in the Qu'ran [sic] and Sunnah, encouraged the use of force.
"When you meet those who disbelieve, smite at their necks `til when you have killed and wounded many of them, then take them as captives," the book said.
"The book" said that, eh? Does Ruddock, and does the Herald Sun, believe that such expressions originate with whoever wrote Jihad in the Qur'an and Sunnah? Well, in fact, this one is in the Qur'an also: "Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them)" (47:4).
This is a nettle that Western governments sooner or later will have to grasp -- that what they persist in assuming is a benign book teaching high-minded spiritual principles has been shown again and again to incite to violence. Will they ban it?
Mr Ruddock said censorship laws could allow a loophole to be closed, which would effectively ban the books."We may not want to prosecute publishers or book stockists for having books of this sort, if we can have matters of glorification of suicide bombing looked at in the context of whether or not a book should be allowed to be sold under the classification regime," Mr Ruddock said.
We'll be watching this one closely.
Is the judge nuts or what?
I see this as sedition.Plotting to overthrow their host country - in fact some are Oz citizens!
I hope Mr Ruddock will see it in the same way.He has been pretty good so far. When he was immigration minister he did a great job of keeping out "undesirables" who stopped first in Indonesia - an islamic country - and then tried to get to OZ illegally.Many ended up in detention centres and of course the left thought he was horrible!
Somehow they (the left) never connected the fact that since they were muslims they would have felt more comfortable in Indonesia.
It was generally a successful strategy. We have not had many more attempts at illegal entry.
I also hope that people will begin to see the real islam. As the saying goes,,"give them enough rope,,,"
Slightly OT, but what happened to the German attempt to have Mein Jihad aka the Koran banned on the grounds that it was inciting violence? Was the request turned down by the prosecution, or is it still pending? Surely this is an interesting idea, not that any country would actually dare banning it, but to raise public awareness about the alleged religion of peace.
once a few countries ban it..... it will steam roll...
oh for petes sake!..the they just dont get it alert!......FIND OUT WHAT IRAN REALLY WANTS..JUST TALK TO THEM...gen wesley clark on fox news a few mins ago.......er gen.... mahmoud has already told us what he wants...CHAOS ON EARTH...clean your ears out and listen!
Many western people are simply unaware about the true teachings of Islamic supremacist Sharia.
They have no clue what Sharia is about because of misinformation about Islam.
Perhaps if more people in the west were educated about the real nature of Sharia, then there would be more outrage.
Sharia provides the basis for Muslims to view themselves as a superior group of people.
Sharia provides the basis for Muslims to discriminate against non-Muslims. This is a subject that is not covered very well in the western media because there could be some conflict if the subject is discussed.
Offending Muslim sensibilities is taboo.
Question:
What is the inspiration behind these supremacist teachings of Sharia?
Answer: Islamic religious texts
The Victory
[48.28] He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.
Quran 47:
SHAKIR: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them.
sorry to repeat myself....but this is why..I FEAR FOR AMERICA....oh for petes sake!..the they just dont get it alert!......FIND OUT WHAT IRAN REALLY WANTS..JUST TALK TO THEM...gen wesley clark on fox news a few mins ago.......er gen.... mahmoud has already told us what he wants...CHAOS ON EARTH...clean your ears out and listen! To fight a war you must admit that you are at WAR.Half of Americas people think like west clark....We must get our Voice heard...or learn arabic!
To Anti-uffe:
Your question is quite excellent.
The german constitution is (not surprisingly, considering history) very, very close, in content and format, to our own. In order to ban the Koran in Germany would require the sames steps in amending the german constitution as would be the case in the US Constitution, namely altering at least one amendment. So I am sure you can see where I am going here...
There is a catch here, both positive and negative all at once:
There is a very unique paragraph in the german civil code (german: Buergerliches Gesetzbuch, or BGB for short), paragraph 130 (against what the germans call "Volksverhetzung"): Any actions or form of speech (including music) that deliberately target one specific race, religion, creed or nationality in order to spread hate against it, in order to incite violence against it, to defame it, etc, is illegal and punishable by law.
Most logically, this law first came onto the books as a result of the holocaust, and the law is quoted the most in cases against neo-nazis (like the NPD in Sachsen) but the applications of paragraph 130 are far reaching.
There are some who say that by it's very nature, the quoting of certain passages out of the Koran breaks paragraph 130 of the law. On the other side, others say that exactly this law is there to protect muslims just as well as christians and jews, that those who use this law as justification for banning the Koran are themselves breaking the very same law. This is becoming a hot topic in Germany.
Chicken? Egg?
Sound like a catch 22? It is, just as the 1st Amendment to our constitution, which of course is a great amendment, can also be abused.
For awhile there was the mistaken notion here in Germany that §130 only applies to german citizens and not to it's guests or asylum seekers, but a number of court decisions have already put this old dog down to sleep. There have been a number of anti-Israel, anti-jewish impromptu demos that were immediately stopped and the the demo organizers were prosecuted according to §130.
Moreover, still on the positive side, §130 DOES allow the german authorities to do things like, upon suspicion of activities in violation of §130, to send spies into moschees in order to record the sermons being preached there, etc... and with a good success rate, the german authorities have already started deporting muslim clerics who have provably preached hated and advocated violence, most notably the infamous "Caliph of Cologne", who was sent out of the country a number of months ago.
The debate is hotter than we americans can imagine, since the germans already have prohibitions on materials used during the 3. Reich. Things like "Mein Kampf" and all nazi paraphenalia can neither be purchased, sold nor displayed in Germany and must even be approved under the scrutiny of upper ups before being used as examples in the history classroom, etc... So, the germans already have restrictions in the area of free speech which we do not have in the USA, which would lead one to think that it would be easier to ban other things. On the contrary: it makes it much much harder! Because of Germany's dark NAZI past, any movement to ban other materials is bound to go extremely slowly, if at all, for fear of being labeled NAZI once again. Once again, the ghost of 1933-1945 is ruining things in today's world.
Whether or not the Koran would ever be banned here is a moot point, for my way of thinking. The law here in Germany is crystal clear when it comes to hate crimes. Reading the book is not necessarily a crime. Interpreting the book to mean that one should kill unbelievers and then taking action based upon the interpretation (including hate speech) IS a crime.
There are a great number of juristic cases being tried right now, where the accused claim the authority of the Sh'aria as their defense-basis instead of the german constitution. Not one of these cases is getting through. Occasionally, a decision will come through in favor of a muslim (the honor-murder of a turkish sister in Berlin a couple of months ago), but not because of bowing to sh'aria, but rather, a loophole in the good old german secular law or a glitch in the trial process-- in other words, the same old crap that can happen in an american process.
I am keeping my eyes very open on this subject, and should more info come out, I will post it as soon as possible.
What would be useful is a short gloss of the Koran's most outrageous, intolerant, anti-other religions, murderous and hate-filled suras -published in pamphlet form- and left, like tourist info freebies / Jehovah's Witness tracts, in public places (train stations, airports, hotel lobbies, zoo and amusment part kiosks, etc., etc.) to slowly give the [currently dozing] captive-audience-with-time-to-kill a quick, shocking clue about the press/politician-obscured contents of this warlord's playbook for global terrorization and theocratic domination.
A simple, stapled-together, folded two page (eight-sides) little item could cover enough of the worst al-Qur'an verses to shift the debate from the wistful fallacies of the [unexamnined] idea of the 'Religion of Peace' into something a little more cogent, frightening and informative.
But make the outside cover very inviting and cozy and cheerful, to lure them beyond what will repel them within.
Just the facts. In the Islamic Imperialists' own words.
The Hadiths, next.
(Although they might be considered semi-pornographic if some of the crazier stuff were included about how to fondle your barely-pubescent child-brides while they are menstruating, etc...)
Exposure of the core of ther Koran is essential.
To "Profitsbeard":
Your suggestion is a great idea!
Based on the principle of "by their deeds, you shall know them". Let's convince Robert to post a standing glossary of the texts that most obviously should not be hidden....
Good idea!
The Muslim student in Kentucky should be grateful that America traditionally held Christian principles, and allows her to worship her false god in America freely, unlike the total intolerance shown to Christians in Islamic nations. A recent convert to Christianity in Afghanistan was nearly executed for believing in the name of Jesus! The demons of Hell are making rapid advances worldwide in an attempt to blacklist and isolate Christians and God's Holy Word. The ACLU has never come to the assistance of anybody that expressed Biblical precepts, but they are always as swift as a streaking comet to attack America’s at her Christian roots.
http://focusonjerusalem.com/newsroom.html
some here have asked me to leave the bible out of the fight.....it is my right to be a CHRISTIAN.our rights are the very thing islam wants to take a way...fight for your rights..if you are jew..christian..or anything but muslim..FIGHT for your rights!
Although most of the people in the world are still unaware of it, our world is racing headlong towards a fateful date with destiny, an epic struggle that the Bible indicates will reach its climax at the place called Armageddon. As the world nears that epic date of infamy, the people and nations of this world will have a decision to make. The primary reason that the Lord God Jehovah provided so much prophetic detail in the Holy Bible is so the world could analyze history and be informed about what the Lord says will come about in the Latter Days so they could make the wise choice and choose to be on the Lord’s side when it comes time for the armies of the nations to march down into the Valley of Decision.
http://focusonjerusalem.com/articles.html
bonncaruso-
OT
I have some old Caruso 78 rpm's re-taped onto cassettes and love to put them on during a storm. There's something about his timbre that fits in with the tension in the atmosphere. (And the thunder gives a little more graphic eq. to the hiss on the transfer.)
Mr. Spencer could cull the craziest Koranic calumnies and post them in a sidebar as you suggest. Meanwhile, here's a good link for your own culling:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchquran.html
(Put in a word like "kill" or "slay" or even "poet" ...and have an airsickness bag ready.)
There was a recent documentary showing how these jihadist types of books are also available in the UK.
Though wisely the UK government has recently taken steps to override human rights aspects of the law - which go against common sense and public safety.
That an Australian court could rule that books which call for the downfall of its political system, as well as promote terrorist attacks on the Australians - could be lawful - is a problem Britain and other western governments are facing with the threat of a rising and more violent Islam.
It’s a human rights versus public security debate.
Forget the books, here in Canada Dr.Mohammad Elmasry now uses his CIC website to incite hatred against Jews and Christians, and ever since the PC Politicians let him get away with calling for the muder of all Israelis over 18, Elmasry has perceived that as a silent consent to attack non-Muslims as the enemies of Islam and Allah.
The Hipocrisy for Elmasry is that his very own website has a burried statement asserting that
Hitler,Stalin,Mao,Pol Pot,and all the rest of the mass murderers are Muslims.
During his list of the foundations for islam and the sacred words of Allah , he declares that everyone is born a Muslim.
So if that statement is taken to the logical end
then it creates a circular logic that Elmasry can't deny , if everyone is a Muslims then all dictators have been created by Allah.
Pass it on,
Did you see Charles Moore on that? He thinks the the ECHR may blow up in Blair's face, just as the ERM did in Major's. There are similar forces at work - the less-than-benign face of transnational thinking and transnational organizations:
"Similarly, if we were to repeal the Human Rights Act and withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights, we would suffer no ill consequences beyond the pursed lips of our continental partners and some P45s at Matrix Chambers. We are entitled to do it, and we are able to do it, so we should do it."
"Profitsbeard":
somewhat OT, but not really...
Caruso is indeed a good choice. Is definitely a hero of mine. Yes, the sound of war is not to be denied. I give it less than one year, perhaps 8 months. If Ohlmert's predictions that Iran will be able to make the bomb within a "couple" of months, as is floating around the Israeli media, then perhaps less than three months. A nuclear strike is not dependent on weather or season. Could make the hot desert summer a lot hotter...
Those books that are showing up in bookstores in Australia and in the UK are expressely banned in Germany, btw. Many german friends of mine are livid with rage to know that this crap is showing up on bookshelves on the european continent, especially after they have worked really hard to remove such ideology from their culture. Pretty hardcore to think that the brits may allow this, but I suspect that the most of those brits have absolutely no idea that this is happening. Did we americans know what kind of trash private islamic schools in NYC, within spitting distance of ground zero, have been teaching? Yep - hardcore stuff.
Seriously, the idea of a glossary is an excellent idea. Sorted out by idea and sub-idea, like:
infidel / christian
infidel / jew
infidel / zoorastrian
What do you think? :) :)
Jonathan posted:
I know people in Britain who in their infantile liberalism, state, " I'm against all forms of fundamentalism, be it Christianity, Islam or Hinduism".
It is this idiotic liberal mindset, which BTW they are proud of, as they think of themselves as eminently civilised, that we have to fight against - 5 years after 9/11, Beslan, London 7/7, Madrid, Bali etc etc.
Yojimbo
Read the article yesterday. I'm a little diubtful if Blair has the courage to rescind a legislation that he spent so much political effort in enacting.
Bersides of he did retract, it would be an admission that he was wrong, and I dont see Blair doing any such thing.
Most politicians have big egos, and Blair has a pretty big one.
storagemanager
Why on earth anyone should ask you to leave the Bible out.
Western nations are Christian in their mores and attitudes - even the separation of church and state, the secular state, tolerance and respect of the dignity of man, Christian or not, is a Judeao-Christian concept. All our laws are guided by the spirit of the Bible.
I for one, welcome your thoughts.
bonncaruso posted:
Very interesting and makes sense at first reading. The trouble is that the time between interpretation to kill, to actual terrorist mass murder is unknowable, as it is the mind of the Jihadi.
profitsbeard -
I almost had to have an airsickness bag ready when I read bits from the "Misconceptions about Islam" link at usc.edu. Was this supposed to be academic, or a propaganda tool for CAIR? I'm not American, so I don't know anything about that particular college. California, huh - one of those treehugging, new agey, cultural relativism sort of leftist universities, or what? If they start recruiting jihadists at US schools I think we all should start worrying, as if we didn't have to to begin with.
I have to say this: the first person I heard calling Islam a "religion of peace" was George W. Bush! And that was right after 9/11!
Was he protecting his saudi friends?
Storagemanager: go for it! You have the right, as you say.
I know you are never going to knife any of us in the back or wear a suicide belt!!
I would urge ALL Australian infidels to write to your local minister about this.
I have - and I always leave off with a quote from the peace loving Koran; followed by a verse said by Christ of the Bible.
When two preachers can go to jail/be found guilty of inciting hatred for preaching to a Christian audience about the horrors of Islam (Daniel Scot & Co), and then have Islamic book stores OK to selling this rubbish - then we have lost the 'War on Terror'.
No wonder they can't get people to join the Army and die for this "War on Terror". Why would you, when our own government approves of what you are supposed to be fighting against.
bonncaruso-
O solo mio!
Easy to use info is crucial.
Sura 9:29-30, et al, need to be better known by the somnambulistic West.
*~@):~{>
anti-uffe-
What USC's p.c. disclaimer misses is:
-all you need do is go to the texts, themselves.
No chance of misunderstanding the strident calls for "holy" violence that lard the Koran, and Hadiths, no matter which of their translations you check.
Misunderstanders of Islam continue to follow these misunderstood verses daily, blowing up their misunderstood Sunni and Shi'ite neighbors in Iraq and throughout misunderstanding Muslim lands.
Frankly, on free speech grounds, I agree with His-Ozzie-Honor on this one. Now, let's get those Pakistani immigrant Christians in New South Wales off the hook.
We need to insist on our right to call Islam a false religion, demand Muslims show the same solicitude for minorities in their countries that we give them in ours, and tell the ACLU that if it had an ounce of the moral courage it claims, it will stick up for our right to call for sewing a piece of pork sausage into OBL's mouth before stringing him up.
RoP - There is no compulsion in religion.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/04/28/wpak28.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/04/28/ixworld.html
This is what happens when muslims dominate any place. It will happen here as well.
bonncaruso wrote,
"There is a very unique paragraph in the german civil code, paragraph 130: Any actions or form of speech (including music) that deliberately target one specific race, religion, creed or nationality in order to spread hate against it, in order to incite violence against it, to defame it, etc, is illegal and punishable by law."
If by any chance it Can be done, then it Must be done. Start with the Al Kod Mosque find the pretext and shut it down. If just one country expelled just one Mosques/Fortress/Weapons Depot, the effect could lead to a collapse of Islam in the West. Islam is a House of Cards, we need only tug at a few and it will Collapse. The Pamphlet Idea is Pure Genius. I would volunteer to distribute them where I live. (NJ)
We can't let these Apostles of the Serpent get comfortable in the USA...
Not Here.
Not Now.
Not Ever.
CRUSADER18
This is what happens when muslims dominate any place. It will happen here as well.
This whole mess could be put a stop to if:
1) Islam's scriptures, tenets, and history were exposed to the American public, and
2) Islam was de-certified as a religion thereby.
But, you're right DP111, it will happen here as well. Not only because of PC (i.e., because of the strong gravitational forces of Fictive Reality), but also because of the 6th Pillar of Islam.
Pig Farmer,
By "6th. Pillar of Islam" do you mean the threat of Jihad? I mean Jihad...Dawat ut Islam followed by...Their usual "mad-cap" highjinx.
NOT HERE.
NOT NOW.
NOT EVER.
CRUSADER18
Any Aussies seen "Sportsworld" on Sunday morning?
A Leb-ballplayer by the name of El masri told the reporter that "Islam is a good religion" and that "Islam is all about peace..." and that the Cronulla riots were 'completely unjustified...'
sheik yer'mami:
I only watch tennis and Aussie rules,lol!
But thanks for posting.
What else would you expect from people who are allowed to lie to infidels?
I seem to recall Anthony Mundine saying something awful after 9/11 and dhimmi Ray Martin trying to "bail" him out of the mess by putting nice words into his mouth. I was sorry he won the other night! (Not a fan of boxing either, but I guess islam is a good religion if you are punch-drunk and your brain doesn't work!)
I recall a guy called Cassius Clay and we all know what happened to him.It amazes me how "african americans" become muslims when more likely than not it was arabs who sold their ancestors as slaves in the first place!
These books could be banned shortly under the pending federal sedition legislation. Teh hate literature is clearly not protected speech.
As far as the Qur'an goes however, sorry I disagree. It should not and cannot be banned.
Let's not condemn El Masri (who is a hell of a league player, I might add). What would you expect him to say? Should we condemn him for not publicly condemning his own religion. Get real! I'm sorry Sheikh, but the Cronulla riots were completely unjustified. The people who took part in those riots were animals, as were the responses by groups of Muslims. I appreciate that there is a history but. A good frind of mine, who happened to be Muslim, and secular was threatened and beaten badly, despite the fact that he was Egyptian. Was that justified? Have you seen pictures of those drunk trash rioters? Who would have attacked children if they could.
By the way, the use of the word "Leb" is racist, and you know it. I'm sure you wouldnt have the balls to call an Arab a leb thats for sure.
Bloody Aussies. Its not just the Muslim Arabs they have a problem with, its the Christian ones as well. It is (partially) a "race thing" with the Aussies. Any other European culture I would say otherise.
HAIDO,
"Aint no Aussie evr called me a Jesus Freak".
Gramfan
Another Aussie willing to accept the term leb, and automatically assume that El Masri is a bad apple. Unbelievable. The character of some of the posters on this site never cease to amaze me. Hiding behind a fake name attacking people they know nothing about. How courageous.
The topic presented is whether certain publications should be banned. Yes they should. Yet somehow it degrades into personal attacks.
Fair enough Wideawake, but if you are an aboriginal (I'm sorry Sheikh "abo"), or just about any other ethnicity including Lebanese Christians, you get painted. Whereas in a country like New Zealand, we generally have respect for each other.
Although my only qualification is that we have a government that refuses to criticise Islamists lik eteh Muslim Association of Canterbury (www.mac.net.nz) read some of the links/materials under the Islam section). At least Australia is more cognisant of the threat of Islamism. I support the anti-terror legislation including the sedition and glorifying terrorism provisions.
What I do not support is rampant Australian racisms, that manifests itself in so many ways. Just look at those of aboriginal and asian descent. While not all Australians are racist, many are, just revisit Cronulla.
Cronulla was not about Islam. Muslims were involved but after the fact. The "Muslim" gangs were comprised of gangs who sold drugs, drank alcohol. These people were criminals, thugs not terrorists.
Haidon,
(is that a fake name,,just wondering,,,,,?)
Aussies have nicknames for everyone,,eg wogs,nips etc etc. I wasn't born here and have been called some names and I have accepted it.
I don't think that necessarily makes them racists.It's an Aussie thing.
As far as said football player is concerned I am not interested whatever in what he thinks of his religion. Let him stick to his sporting ability.
Other athletes rarely sound off about their beliefs.
As for hiding behind "fake names" and "being courageous" I wonder what courage you attribute to a homicide bomber who hides a bomb belt under his/her clothes and kills and maims people in crowded places???
"There are some who say that by it's very nature, the quoting of certain passages out of the Koran breaks paragraph 130 of the law. On the other side, others say that exactly this law is there to protect muslims"
This sums up quintessentially the problem which not just Germany, but the entire modern West is having getting its shit together to criminalize that historically venerable criminal organization, Islam.
"The "Muslim" gangs were comprised of gangs who sold drugs, drank alcohol. These people were criminals, thugs not terrorists."
Thuggery, petty crimes and rapes are also parts of the inchoate and amorphous nebula of violent Jihad: the Muslim riffraff ("youths" as the French call them) know this because it has been vaguely communicated to them: Infidels and their spoils in the Dar-al-Harb are fair game. The Jihad is an army of many different levels, many different roles -- from the women who simply stay indoors to breed new mujahideen, to the riffraff, to the clerics who spew their Arabic venom straight, to the clerics who clean it up in English for Infidel ears, to the Muslim Academics who bowdlerize the Qur'an and polish the gilt of the "Golden Age" of Islam, to ordinary Muslims who take the time to try to present the "peaceful" nature of Islam to Infidels, to ordinary Muslims who by their mere presence as "the nice Muslim guy I know from the tobacco store who wouldn't hurt a fly", to Muslims who work behind the scenes oiling the pockets of gullible Western businessmen and politicians -- a vast army with many different levels, many different roles: each with an eye to the Last Day or Paradise -- whichever comes first.
Kia ora Gramfan
My name is Thomas Haidon. I don't hide behind an alias. I'm not suggesting that you do either by the way, alot of people use nicknames and that's fine.
You said:
Aussies have nicknames for everyone,,eg wogs,nips etc etc. I wasn't born here and have been called some names and I have accepted it.
Thank you for proving my point about many Australians.
You ask:
"I wonder what courage you attribute to a homicide bomber who hides a bomb belt under his/her clothes and kills and maims people in crowded places???"
I don't. I have said here as a poster time and time again, that these Muslims who kill are scum and need to be eradictaed. That is why I support strong anti-terror laws, which is what John Howard has pushed through.
Television you are assuming that there is something different with these so caled Muslim gangs,than there are with any other gang. They are not fighting a jihad, chances are they know very little about Islam. I had the discpleasure meeting several of these so called gang members when I was over there at a shisha place. What a bunch of morons. I tried to discuss Islam with them, bt these guys wouldnt know the difference between jihad and itjihad. I really don't believe its a MUSLIM problem, its a criminal problem.
They key difference is that these gangs are not articulating reasons for their attacks based in Qur'an and Sunnah. (However Muslim groups post Cronulla were to justify attacks on non-Muslims)
Again however the Muslim reaction post Cronulla was problematic. That is where we have the proble... Not with these shitty little gangs (where half of these jokers try and emulate African-American based gangs, not the muhajideen).
Television, you wrote:
"ordinary Muslims who take the time to try to present the "peaceful" nature of Islam to Infidels, to ordinary Muslims who by their mere presence as "the nice Muslim guy I know from the tobacco store who wouldn't hurt a fly", to Muslims who work behind the scenes oiling the pockets of gullible Western businessmen and politicians -- a vast army with many different levels, many different roles: each with an eye to the Last Day or Paradise -- whichever comes first".
Well you have covered up all the bases. That's just about every Muslim on the planet. I'm not quite sure how to comment. Its a laughable and inplausible statement. For you to paint all Muslims, including the man "from the tobacco store" is an absolute joke. Learn to distinguish. Let me guess, its too hard.
"The people who took part in those riots were animals, as were the responses by groups of Muslims"
Riots?!?! What riots Haidon???? Compared to the Islamic riots over a few stupid (and funny) cartoons of the profit Mo - the Cronulla "riots" were NOT riots.
Where were the burnings? The killings? The rapes by these "evil" white thugs?? Maybe they should take a few lessons off the Muslims on how to riot!
Not religious but racist??? Get real! If they were purely race based then answer the following Haidon:
1) In the aftermath WHY were the following Christian churches targeted:
a) A Catholic church full of people from every race - it was shot at by a bunch of peace lovers.
b) A Pacific Island Christian church was burnt to the ground by a bunch of Peace Lovers (Muslims)
c) An Anglican church (again full of people whose ancestory is from all over the world) was vandelised.
It seems the evil white men - compared to the Muslims have no idea of how to "riot" - DO THEY???
I went to uni with a Lebanese girl - she didn't get ONE OUNCE of racism thrown at her (in fact I had the hots for her also!). She was Christian Lebanese.
John Simmons owns one of the most sucessful Mortgage Originator firms in the country - he is Lebanese.
Steve Bracks (yes he is a dickhead) - the Premier of Victoria - is Lebanese (Christian upbringing). If we Aussies are so dam racist - then how did HE GET ELECTED????
Then we have all the multi-ethic people who hold office all around the country. How did they get elected in such a "racist" country Haidon???
You have absolutley no idea what you are talking about.
Yes in Australia there are some racist idiots. BUt compared to many countries, Australia is one of the most tolerant country on earth.
"These people were criminals, thugs not terrorists."
No they were neither, they were Muslims - comming out of the Lakemba Mosque and spreading there Islamic tolerance to infidels.
I have the following problem:
I been asked to help a Korean student write a uni essay on why Australia is racist and Islamophobic.
Obviously if she disputes this “fact” she will be failed by the do gooder left wing uni.
She also knows Islam is evil.
What should I do – help her tell the truth and fail? (she is paying big bucks to be “educated”)
Or write according to what the uni wants???
Haidon -
The rioters at Cronulla made the same mistake the media does all the time -
That is they equate Islam with race. To be Muslim is to be Arab - is how many see it.
Maybe if our leaders started to tell the truth about Islam (that it is a death cult of evil intolerance founded by a child molester) then idiot and ignorant Aussie's wouldn't be targeting "Middle Eastern" People.
3rdtimelucky
She could mention the 18 or so muslim jihadis who were nabbed in Sydney and Melbourne a while back, that might be a good start to explain the outbreak of unjustified "Islamophobia". Perhaps if she made the essay sarcastic, as if the word "islamophobic" wasn't the most ludicrous word ever coined.
Personally, I'd report the uni to the authorities, or perhaps to a talkback station.
It's hard to believe the left can sink any lower than this.
Kia ora 3rd time
I have already stated the post Cronulla response was reprehensible, and disproportionate. even more troubling was that the response emanated from teh mouths of Islamic leaders themselves. You will find no argument with me in that regard.
For the moment, I'm not talking about the Mohammed cartoon riots, which were also reprehensible. The Cronulla riots were despicable. Have you seen the pictures of a dozen dunk aussies attacking a cowering man with beer bottles? The man's only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Unfortunately 3rd time, I do know what I am talking about. Just because you mention a couple of Arab's who have been elected does not mean there is no anti-Arab racism, means nothing. Any Arab racism dfoes not stem origionally from Muslims, but the torrents of Lebanese Crhistians arriving in the 70's and 80's and bringing their gang wars.
You wote:
These people were criminals, thugs not terrorists."
No they were neither, they were Muslims - comming out of the Lakemba Mosque and spreading there Islamic tolerance to infidels.
Teh post-Cronulla Muslim response, yes I would agree, but before Cronulla you are wrong dead wrong.
The Aussies, one of the most tolerant country on earth? Just ask an aborigine whether he/she thinks so.
So let me ask you 3rd time, do you think it would have been acceptable for the Cronulla rioters to discern between Muslim and non-Muslim Arabs and just attack, and kill innocent Muslims. WOuld that have been acceptable to you?
Haidon - perhaps you would care to enlighten we poor dumb Aussies on how to tell the difference between Muslims who support jihad (and the rest of their Fascist nonsense) from Muslims who do not. Is there some distinguishing feature we could look for? A star on the forehead perhaps? Or do we simply believe their words (ever heard of 'taqiyya'?)
Australians distrust and dislike Muslims for many excellent reasons - the best being the evidence of our own eyes. Since Muslims (especially from Lebanon) began coming here in the 1980s, we have watched their behaviour - the murders, driveby shootings, drug-dealing, intimidation of ordinary citizens and their increasing refusal to abide by the laws and customs of the country. Muslims are overrepresented in prisons and the welfare system. They have contributed nothing to Australia except the importation of revolting customs like female genital mutilation, women covered from head to toe and hate literature.
No other migrant group has ever behaved this way - I guess its just a coincidence that Muslim immigrants behave the same way the world over, trashing the countries that have been foolish enough to offer them a new life. There have been twenty two driveby shootings in Sydney this year - all carried out by Muslim thugs.
Stopping Muslim immigration would be a very good start on the problems in Australian cities. Then we could concentrate on getting rid of the would be jihadis and other Islamic barbrians the govt. was stupid enough to allow into this country.
3rd time... I'm sure you would not condemn the beating of Muslims, please forget the last portion of my statement. I wrote in haste... my apologies
Deecha
You wrote:
Haidon - perhaps you would care to enlighten we poor dumb Aussies on how to tell the difference between Muslims who support jihad (and the rest of their Fascist nonsense) from Muslims who do not. Is there some distinguishing feature we could look for? A star on the forehead perhaps? Or do we simply believe their words (ever heard of 'taqiyya'?)
I'm sorry, you are completely correct. Its too much of an intellectual exercise to even think of a way to distinguish. We can't so lets get rid of em'all. In fact maybe we can kill all of em. Those poor Cronulla rioters, what could they do? Seriously, so no steps should be made to distinguish, all because you are too lazy? My god... Not only do moderates face wrath and terror from actual jihadists, we face it from you as well Deecha.
I'm not saying that Muslims don't warrant special scrutiny, I just don't want to be killed by rioters. Can you understand that? Scrutinise Muslims, engage in profiling as a legitimate law enforcement tool. This is how we can distinguish. This war is not just yours, moderate Muslims have even more at stake than you do.
You wrote:
our own eyes. Since Muslims (especially from Lebanon) began coming here in the 1980s, we have watched their behaviour - the murders, driveby shootings, drug-dealing, intimidation of ordinary citizens and their increasing refusal to abide by the laws and customs of the country. Muslims are overrepresented in prisons and the welfare system. They have contributed nothing to Australia except the importation of revolting customs like female genital mutilation, women covered from head to toe and hate literature.
Sorry Deecha, these actions happen from within the Lebanises Christian communities as well. Where is your evidence that these acts, were committed because these "Muslims" were following Qur'an and Sunnah?
Are you saying that someone who is a Muslim cannot be a common criminal or thug too? Just because they are Muslim does not mean they commit acts because Islam tells them to do so.
Sorry stopping Muslim immigration would not stop your problems. Most of your problems come from the Lebanese Christian community. You don't have a significant amount of Muslims coming into Australia. I would be supportive of legislation that limits the number however.
"do you think it would have been acceptable for the Cronulla rioters to discern between Muslim and non-Muslim Arabs and just attack, and kill innocent Muslims. WOuld that have been acceptable to you?"
Kill innocent Muslims?
The only people using lethal force (knives, iron bars, baseball bats etc.) were Muslims.
A young Anglo-axon Australian was knifed in the back when he defended two girls a bunch of Muslim thugs threatened to rape.
The Mohammedans kindlt left the knife in the wound ass a parting gift.
Many Australians were bashed into unconciousness with baseball bats and iron bars as they pursued such peaceful activities as buying pizza or putting out the rubbish.
No Muslims were killed and as far as I've heard, no weapons were used by the 'Aussie' crowd.
Personally though, I'd like to see life made very uncomfortable, in every possible way, for all Muslims in Australia...to the point that they are begging to leave the country.
I've had enough of the execrable cult of death, Islam.
"Most of your problems come from the Lebanese Christian community."
On what basis do you make that assumption?
Haidon is the perfect Muslim, lies, lies and more lies in the name of Allah.
The worst Muslims are the so-called moderates -- the taqiyya masters who cause people to pause in condemning Islam, in the hope that there is possibility for reform, and that jihad violence is committed by a small minority of extremists, etc.
Mike
I'm not sure what Cronulla riots you are talking about, maybe you saw the pictures of innocent Arabs cowering in fear while drunk vicious, inhumane Australians showed no mercy and smashed them with beer bottles.
I'm sure you would like to do nothing more than harm all Muslims., including children from the sounds of it. You would have been in the riot I'm sure, throwing the first bottle.
As far as Christian Lebanese go, simply look at the suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne where there are substantial Lebanese Christians, statistically there are a higher number of crims. Go to Australia Statistics. The problems in the eighties emerged from criminal lebanese christian gangs.
You wrote
Haidon is the perfect Muslim, lies, lies and more lies in the name of Allah
Getting personal are we? Again, as I have stated before, at least I am a man to fight for what I believe in. I work in Muslim communities, face threats to myself and my non-Muslim wife. So to accuse me of taqiyya is an absolute lie. I dedicate myself to (to no avail yet) to working with Muslim, highlighting the problems, and discussing ways forward. I'm not the only one of course.
Mike, you are the type that gives Robert a bad name.
I don't have time to debate these issues, but if you want to take this to another more complex level: newzealand@freemuslims.org.
3rdtimelucky
an essay on why Australia is racist and Islamophobic?
Give a dictionary definition of phobia (basically an irrational fear) so islamophobia would be an irrational fear of islam.
Now let's look at islam and what do we see? Give the facts, give some quotes from prominent muslims, show crime and rapes, give examples like the monster Pakistani brothers, give bits and pieces of the filth the imams spew, give some terrorist plots uncovered including examples of jihad around the world, Beslan, New York, London, Madrid, Bali, etc. Relate these events back to the concept of islamic jihad, sharia law and Mohammed's life (some research in the JihadWatch archives)
Given this data, these facts, murders, rapes, bullying, theft,the use of terror, then ask why one would not have reason to fear islam, as it brings suffering and pain and destruction. So on the contrary, the Australian fear of islam is not irrational, a phobia, it's a healthy fear, based on reason and facts.
Australia racist? on what is this based? islam is not a race. That's all I can think of now.
Haidon, you are a Muslim and according to your faith you are required to lie to infidels.
Bukhari:V4B52N268 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.’”
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes.aspx?g=405&i=4513
Therefore, as I have no built-in lie detector, I must assume everything you say is a lie.
Nothing personal, just easier and safer that way.
Haidon,
"Television you are assuming that there is something different with these so caled Muslim gangs,than there are with any other gang. They are not fighting a jihad, chances are they know very little about Islam."
They don't need to know much about Islam -- their function is just to be ragged foot-soldiers sowing discord, trouble and fear in the Dar-al-Harb. All they need to know is a vague sense of brute pride in being part of the Muslim family, a vague sense of superiority over Infidels, a vague sense that whatever Infidels have is there for the taking and spoliation. In order to function in this role, they need to know this much, but not more -- thereby giving the more clear-thinking (and often moderate-seeming) jihadists plausible deniability: "these are just common criminals, punks -- they have nothing to do with Islam!"
"I had the discpleasure meeting several of these so called gang members when I was over there at a shisha place. What a bunch of morons. I tried to discuss Islam with them, bt these guys wouldnt know the difference between jihad and itjihad."
Trouble is, Haidon, you think the mujahideen and the bin Ladenists also don't know much about Islam -- else, according to you, they wouldn't be doing all those bad things in the name of Islam. At any rate, we're seeing different levels of jihad-consciousness, and every level has its role: the riff-raff work by slow, steady attrition, wearing down the composure and confidence of the Infidel over years, decades, generations... and the beauty of it is, the riff-raff don't even need to be trained: Islamic societies, with their abysmal state of corruption and dysfunction and poverty, are filled with dregs like these that simply need to be unleashed as immigrants in any Western city to cause trouble -- i.e., to be foot-soldiers.
"Television, you wrote:
"ordinary Muslims who take the time to try to present the "peaceful" nature of Islam to Infidels, to ordinary Muslims who by their mere presence as "the nice Muslim guy I know from the tobacco store who wouldn't hurt a fly", to Muslims who work behind the scenes oiling the pockets of gullible Western businessmen and politicians -- a vast army with many different levels, many different roles: each with an eye to the Last Day or Paradise -- whichever comes first".
"Well you have covered up all the bases. That's just about every Muslim on the planet."
When I delineated all those types of "Muslims" I never said they include every Muslim. I am talking about sociological types. The point is, the various types that function in the multi-level enterprise of Jihad cut across all facets of society -- and because of that, we Infidels can't be sure whom to trust. The problematic Muslims don't all wear bright green jumpsuits, easy to identify, nor do they snarl and bare their teeth conveniently for us to say, "Oh, okay, this one is an extremist -- but the Muslim professor who smiles and whose wife offers us some more couscous must be a nice moderate."
Haidon,
>>>>Thank you for proving my point about many Australians.
Haidon - with all due respect - you are in NZ - we have pleanty of Muslims arriving on these (once peaceful) shores.
And please don't lecture me on the aboriginals - I have lived in small towns with these people for a decade of my life - and there are two broad types:
1) Those that refuse government hand outs and work for a living (like the rest of us). These guys are usually taunted by there "brethren" - some of whom are sporting blonde hair and blue eyes
2) Those that "claim" aboriginality to get free hand outs by our stupid government.
I have watched as poor non aboriginal families from Anglo/Greek/Italian/Vietnamese backgrounds scrimp and scrape to cents together to try and send their kids on a school camp; only then to see the government throw money at the aboriginals - simply based on race. So yes Haidon - in that view my government is racist.
Your very insinuation that it is “all white mans fault” is hypocritical. You are living in New Zealand aren’t you? I hope you are giving over your house, your taxes, your belongings to the Maoris (sp). No? Oh so you are happy condemning the “white man”; yet happy to deny those who you purport to support (indigenous people) by living in the white mans Western society. Hypocrite!
Besides as a Muslim you have a hide lecturing my country men on the treatment of original occupants to a land. Islam is the greatest coloniser of all time! Besides - I am an indigenous Australian; I was born here. Tell me what is the Arabic word for black and slave?
The Christian Lebanese have been much less of a problem than the Muslim ones Haidon.
I'm yet to see Christian Lebanese en masse burn down Mosques, shoot at them with illegal firearms all the while shouting joys to their God.
I'm yet to see the Christian Arabs send two Mufti's to court at great expense, with the threat of jail, simply for reading the Koran.
I'm yet to see Christian Arabs plotting to overthrow my government as has Jihad Jack; Jack Roche; David Hicks et al
I'm yet to see a recognized leader of the Arab Christian Church come out and say that 9/11 was a Jewish Plot (Sultan Dean - Head of the Islamic groups in QLD)
I'm yet to see Arab Christians dancing and shouting for joy as the Twin Towers came tumbling down - as my aunty did when she was in a shopping centre and looked over into a innocent looking Kebab shop.
I'm yet to see Christian Lebanese pack raping an Aussie girl "because she was Australian"
I'm yet to see a Christian Pastor of Arab extraction say that its the woman’s fault if she is raped.
I'm yet to see a Christian bookshop sell books on how to kill and overthrow my government.
I’m yet to see a Christian Arab Pastor who represents a large body of Christians like the Grand Mufti of Australia say its OK to be a suicide bomber overseas.
I could go on, but your attempt at moral equivalence is pathetic.
Thanks Poetess - this Korean girl is aparently naive about Western "education".
I want her to do well - but I want her to tell the truth also.
I will do that - I had another student do it recently - but that was at the high school level, not the expensive uni one.
'Pakistan Is a slum'
say that ten times fast.
"Again, as I have stated before, at least I am a man to fight for what I believe in" - Haidon
What's that? The words of a man who had sex not only with whomever he desired, but that of a six year old girl?????
The words of a war lord who crushed many an indigenous culture (you do care about indigenous people don't you??)
The words and morals of a war lord who relegated non believers to a second rate status that has lead to countless misery around the world.
The words and morals of a war lord that instituted slavery - that still goes on today in the Islamic world - because Islam is incapable of free thought and reformation - simply because the Koran is the inerrant word of god?
The words and morals of a war lord who said "war is deceit" and that Allah can go back on his word (equals that Allah is a lair; and cannot be trusted)
The words and morals of a war lord who said the only guarantee that you can get to heaven (where sex awaits) is if you die fighting infidels in the name of Islam.
Yes - definitley morals and a belief worth fighting for? Say your not Bin Laden are you?
Haidon wrote: "The problems in the eighties emerged from criminal lebanese christian gangs."
If a proportion of Lebanese Christian youth are dysfunctional enough to engage habitually in criminal behaviors, it's likely largely because they come out of a profoundly dysfunctional society that has been made dysfunctional by the ruling Muslim culture over centuries of that institutionalized depravity and corruption called "Islam".
Gramfan
Hi. The word Kiwi is not viewed derogatorily. It could not be construed as racist, and I think there is a difference. However, call a Japanese person a "nip" or a lebanese person a lab, and one is liable to be in trouble.
Television
You wrote
Trouble is, Haidon, you think the mujahideen and the bin Ladenists also don't know much about Islam -- else, according to you, they wouldn't be doing all those bad things in the name of Islam. At any rate, we're seeing different levels of jihad-consciousness, and every level has its role: the riff-raff work by slow, steady attrition, wearing down the composure and confidence of the Infidel over years, decades, generations... and the beauty of it is, the riff-raff don't even need to be trained: Islamic societies, with their abysmal state of corruption and dysfunction and poverty, are filled with dregs like these that simply need to be unleashed as immigrants in any Western city to cause trouble -- i.e., to be foot-soldiers.
No I do. They know a great deal. Bin LAden and Zarqawi can justify an attack using copious amounts of Quran and Sunnah, moderates can barely muster a couple fo out of context aya from the Qur'an.
Again, people who happen to be Muslim are also capable of being common criminals. Most of these foot soldiers are not Jihadists, just morons, who drink alot of vodka and shoot alot of heroin, and sniff alot of coke. There is nothing Islamic about some of these guys at all. Just because a Muslim immigrates, does not make him, her or his/her family a dreg. It is wrong to paint all Muslims with this brush. I agre that distingusihing can be difficult. But most Aussie Muslims are law abiding, most want a good life. We don't have large problems with Muslims here in NZ (except for Canterbury). This of course does not mean there is not a problem.
3rd Time. I was not trying to equivocate Christian and Muslim Lebanese. I realise there are Muslim problems in Australia, generally however they don't come from Lebanese Muslims 9especially those who have been here for a couple of decades now. Most come from Pakistanis, Indians, Egyptians, Syrians. I'm mot saying Lebanese Muslims were perfect (far from it as we see post Cronualla).
You wrote
Besides as a Muslim you have a hide lecturing my country men on the treatment of original occupants to a land. Islam is the greatest coloniser of all time! Besides - I am an indigenous Australian; I was born here. Tell me what is the Arabic word for black and slave?
I can't respond to this. I don't identify as part of the Ummah. I am an American and a New Zealander.
I'm not condemning you personally 3 rd time. New Zealanders however have a good relationship with Maori (Treaty of Waitangi) we signed and honoured an agreement. We are a bi-lingual (Maori/English) country. Maori views are incorporated into most levels of policy development. But we have a better record that your country does when it comes tor ace relations, that is indisputable.
You wrote
Haidon wrote: "The problems in the eighties emerged from criminal lebanese christian gangs."
If a proportion of Lebanese Christian youth are dysfunctional enough to engage habitually in criminal behaviors, it's likely largely because they come out of a profoundly dysfunctional society that has been made dysfunctional by the ruling Muslim culture over centuries of that institutionalized depravity and corruption called "Islam".
Come on Television. Now you are excusing their behaviour. Most of the Lebanese Christians in Sydeny and Melbourne are from Beirut, where Christians thrive (well, as well as a Christian can thrive in a Muslim country).
3rd Time
My diatribe was not aimed at you.
I believe that Islam can be reformed (you cannot, so lets move on). I have engaged with Muslim communities to discuss these issues, even the issue of the Prophet Muhammad's sexual relationship with Aisha, which I find morally reviling. I discuss these issues, freely and frankly with Muslims.
But at least I am out there doing something. I almost get the feeling that some (especialy posters here) wished I did not. Some not only dont beieve Islam can reform, but dont want it to reform either. The first step in resolving any problem, is identifying the problem, and this is partially what I am doing within Muslim cacuses.
To call me Bin Laden is harsh. I despise jihadists and believe in separating mosque from state. I will always fight against jihadists. But at the same time, I will try and work with Muslims. I want to help salvage Islam, not destroy it. You will never change my mind, that this is a worthwhile cause, nor will I change yours. So there is no need further to proceed this aspect of our discussion. We can all laugh about the prospects of reform, but please lets just leave it here for the moment.
Incidentally, I do not follow the words of Muhammad. I follow some of the guding principles of the Qur'an, alone. I do not follow Sunnah. (This is another argument that I dont want to get into).
Cheers
TH
Normally, I try and avoid asking other posters personal questions, but given the topic at hand - Islam, how do you identify yourself as a Muslim, and yet refuse to recognize yourself as a part of the Muslim "community" (no offense, but I use the quoted term loosely). Isn't that contradictory? Even if you lived the life of a total recluse, avoiding any contact with fellow Muslims?
For instance, I am a Hindu, and in our religion, we do not have the equivalent of the Ummah, that divides us from those who don't believe in Hinduism. Yet, having stated that I am a Hindu, I can't state that I don't recognize myself as a member of the group of people who profess Hinduism as their religion, even if I led a lifestyle identical to Mycroft Holmes, can I?
You also concede
Yet, further down below, you continue to say I am perfectly happy to honor your wish, and it is really none of my business that you want to make this a major project in your life. That said, without asking you how Islam can be reformed, the question I would like to ask is, "How can a selected few verses of the Quran alone, taken out of context, serve as a foundation of an Islam for Muslims to prefer to a millenium old religion that is so well laid out, albeit ugly for infidels?"Another error on your part worth pointing out -
Indian Muslims don't migrate to Australia. The ones who don't stay in India usually migrate to the Gulf - UAE, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Any Muslims you see from the sub-continent are either from Pakistan or Bangladesh.Haidon says,
"I'm sure you wouldnt have the balls to call an Arab a leb thats for sure."
What is it, exactly, that you are implying about "Arabs" and "lebs," respectively?
"Bloody Aussies."
All that lecturing on over-generalization, and you give us that?
As for your comments on posters who are critical of Islam hiding behind pseudonyms, this seems to be a cheap shot. You say this knowing that if we reveal our names, there is a considerable risk that we, or our family members, or indeed anyone asociated with us, could be killed for expressing our views. Please do pardon our cowardice for not turning over our names to the international network of jihadists who have nothing better to do except threaten, terrorize, and slaughter any civilian who even remotely says something off-key about Islam.
I'm not sure that I would characterize your revelation of your own name as terribly brave. Are you more brave than us? I think Robert is brave. Hirsi Ali is brave. Or rather did you simply find yourself in a situation where, having already revealed your name and having made some comments that rubbed some conservative Muslims the wrong way, that you received death threats? Welcome to the club. All non-Muslims live under a death threat at all times simply by being, acting, and talking like non-Muslims. And all Muslims live under a death threat lest they say or do something that constitutes apostasy or blasphemy according to whoever happens to be interpreting those "shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings."
In any case, you're defending the Koran, and that much will keep you out of trouble with most Muslims. So you have less to fear than those of us who criticize frankly. We are at a higher risk of being killed. Any jihadist who was determined enough could track us all down pretty easily, but we are taking a calculated risk, just like you. But I'd rather put a pseudonym to my argument than put up a pseudo-argument.
Some reading material:
http://www.islam-watch.org/ (also see the "Library")
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/AbulKasem40730.htm The Root of Terrorism a la Islamic Style, by Abul Kasem.
(This one by me examines Koran verse 5:32--you know that wonder-quote that says killing one man is like killing all mankind)
http://www.islam-watch.org/Archemedez/KillingInKoran.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/islkill.htm This brief article deals with the doctrine tattarrus--very interesting.
Haidon,
I may have missed most of the fun, but I read through this thread and all I can say is "tutto fumo, niente arrosto..."
No credit for your lies, I guess you just have to do what you are doing because "Allah" expects this of you, so go on, a little more smoke for the infidels... but never mind, we do have your number!
We are proud "Aussies", we are "Krauts, wogs, (I look a little 'woggy myself) poms, japs, chinks, Yanks" and god knows what. No apologies! We don't object, we all fit in and we all get along. And we take care of our Aborigines, that is NOT YOUR business! Rest assured that they are doing better then under a sharia caliphate!
But now we are 'racist' because a 'leb' Mohammedan liar should be called what exactly? Get stuffed!
Just address the issues, Haidon! All you do is deflect and obscure. Jihad is the central duty of every soldier of Allah and your chosen "religion", and if you remain behind when the jihad rages, then you should be killed and you will be roasted in hellfire, that is what Islam teaches, is it not?
Most of the posters above have already answered you, so I won't bother. But one thing I know: Try to pull another Cronulla in NZ and you might find that the Maoris will not lay down their clubs when you call them 'racists', it wouldn't surprise me if that day is coming soon!
Government should outlaw ALL free speech.
That'll stick the jihadists in their place!
Archimedes
I do understand why some people are nervous to post their names. Perhaps I was being harsh, but I get sick of personal attacks from people whom I know nothing about. At least when I state my real name, people can do a bit of research to see if I am another "taqiyya spouting" Muslim. Of course I think Robert and Hirsi Ali are brave as well.
I just think its cowardly for a person to accuse me of taqiyya or the like with a psedonym, when they can find out about me with a simple web search.
Your wrote:
In any case, you're defending the Koran, and that much will keep you out of trouble with most Muslims. So you have less to fear than those of us who criticize frankly. We are at a higher risk of being killed. Any jihadist who was determined enough could track us all down pretty easily, but we are taking a calculated risk, just like you. But I'd rather put a pseudonym to my argument than put up a pseudo-argument.
You might be right, however I make these arguments in Muslim caucuses. I have had some threats, but I am not worried. But your point is taken, and I understand, especially why you do not reveal your name (i have read some of your writings off the JW site).
Sheikh
I'm not sure how to respond, but again more personal attacks. More accusations of taqiyya and deception. Well produce your proof. Before someone makes such serious allegations they should back them up. Again, I spend my time fighting jihadism. I've even gone up against academics like George Williams in your country defending John Howard's record on terrorism. And have worked towards having similar legislation passed in NZ. So please...
Your wrote:
I may have missed most of the fun, but I read through this thread and all I can say is "tutto fumo, niente arrosto..."
No credit for your lies, I guess you just have to do what you are doing because "Allah" expects this of you, so go on, a little more smoke for the infidels... but never mind, we do have your number!
You have my number? What will you do with it? Is that a threat? I just wonder why, when a Muslim disagrees with other posters at JW, he is automatically labelled. I think its amusing, especially from someone who hides behind a pseudonym.
And thank you for admitting that Aussies are racist. Thank you. Aside from your Prime Minister
And as far as your other accusation
Just address the issues, Haidon! All you do is deflect and obscure.
I have always admitted that this is a problem in Islam, that fourteen hundred years have taught this. I have never denied this, and have encouraged Muslims to talk about this and fight this. I have spoken to my own peril, about the fallibility of the Prophet and his relationship with Asiha. On the third to last day of Ramadan while giving a Khutbah, I challenged Muslims to look beyond Mohammed and to look towards Jesus as a prophet to emulate. So please, I am entrenched in this ideological war.
Well Mike, in Australia that would be easy. There is no bill of rights. It is one of the only countries that could pull it off. But seriously, they have so much legal scope to ban inflammatory Islamic materials.
Well Mike, in Australia that would be easy. There is no bill of rights. It is one of the only countries that could pull it off. But seriously, they have so much legal scope to ban inflammatory Islamic materials.
Another thing that irks me, Haidon, something that I find totally repugnant, is that you advertise "proudly under your own name..."
Some hero you are! Do you live in fear for your life? Has anybody physically attacked you for growing a beard, for wearing a kaftan and a coffee-filter? I guess not.
You see, it is not a secret that Islam is a criminal organization that habitually cuts the throats and kills those identified as "enemies of the cult"- Not everyone lives in 'undisclosed Locationville' and not everyone wants to have 3 to 4 bodyguards around day & night. I will take you on though, anytime, anywhere:
You name it, TV, radio, any kind of talk-show. But I will make sure that the necessary security arrangements are made. I wouldn't trust you with that...
While I agree Haidon is full of imflammatory nonsense and he seems to have agitated my fellow Aussies, there is one point that gave me pause to think.. Haidon's point was that he would like to see Islam reformed, and a separation of mosque and state.. Isnt that what RS wants too? I am pretty sure having been paying attention now for weeks that he isnt looking to kill before we get killed which does seem to be a significant theme for some of the people posting here.
Am I wrong?
Tea time in Sydney....
payingattention,
Islam has had nearly 1400 years to "reform" ad it has failed.
The stratey of the taqiyya talking "moderate" mohammedans like Haidon is to keep decent people hoping that reform of Islam is possible right up until the knife is at their throats.
AUTHOR: Archimedes
EMAIL: paulmattless@nf.sympatico.ca
IP: 142.163.22.171
URL:
DATE: 05/22/2006 04:26:40 AM
Sheikh
I think its actually hilarious that you find me the great enemy, like I'm some sort of muhajideen and you are some great crusader. What will we discuss in that conversation that Islam has major problems? Or that there are alot of bad Muslims, or how some so called moderates like to talk about reform but are full of shit? I don't think we would be arguing because I agree. A also agree that it is difficult to decipher the messages of moderates.
I have been attacked in the Middle East (Egypt and Sudan for speaking my views). There was one incident in Wellington (I came home from an All Blacks game in Wellington and I had the words Ridda scrawled across my driveway in spray paint (earlier that day I gave an "inflammatory: khutbah apparently). So I am no stranger to this.
I'm not afraid to give my address, in fact feel free to publish it:
12 West Road
Northland
Wellington
Here is my phone number as well
64 27 425 0413
You name it, TV, radio, any kind of talk-show. But I will make sure that the necessary security arrangements are made. I wouldn't trust you with that...
I would not ask for your personal contact details. I would never attempt to harm anyone by the way. I respect your right to say what you please, and guess what I would defend that right against any Islamist who said otherwise. I find it pretty sad that you fear me just because I am Muslim. Again I would never harm anyone and am insulted by your remark. At no point did I make any sort of physical threat against you.
I'm not the one who defended the Cronulla assault on innocent people, so it is I who should fear you.
But I would be happy to debate you. Unfortuantely however people would automatically dismiss you in most forms of media and would automatically be sympathetic to me, because I am Muslim, and this is the sort of PC world we live in. BUt if you can find an appropriate medium where you are comfortable in, lets go. You have my contact details now...
Payingattention
Have you been paying attention? Why am I full of inflammatory nonsense? Because I disagree with posters here? Does that make me a jihadist or taqiyya master?
Im sorry third time, you do have problems with the few Indian Muslims in your country,
You wrote
ask is, "How can a selected few verses of the Quran alone, taken out of context, serve as a foundation of an Islam for Muslims to prefer to a millenium old religion that is so well laid out, albeit ugly for infidels?"
Islam is not well laid out. It is flawed, ugly and in the gutter. For fourteen hundred years Islam has been corrupted. Man made interrference through Hadith and fiqh have made Islam what it is today. The Qur'an while still problematic, is a document capable of an interpretation that is non-literal and contextual. (Oh... sh*t I shouldnt have said that)
Oops! A blank post. Probably my best post ever.
***
In light of Haidon's charges of cowardice, which he has moderated now, I will just add that anonymity is truly a tactic that should be exploited for all it's worth for those forced to use it. It's not cowardly to use a shield against an opponent that uses a sword. Bravery is one thing, but walking into a hail of bullets is not an effective use of one's life.
haidon -- what will be left of Islamic theology once you (hopefully) can strip the inhumanity out of it?
Keep demonizing the unbelievers (but don't kill them)? I suppose that's an improvement.
Haidon wrote:
"At least when I state my real name, people can do a bit of research to see if I am another "taqiyya spouting" Muslim."
It ain't that easy.
With some Muslims, they are rather sloppy and count on Infidels not tracking down their paper trail. Even with these, one needs a Robert Spencer & Friends to do some of the diligent paperwork.
Other Muslims are more clever, and it would take a PI who knows Arabic to determine if they are taqiyya artists. Fehmi Naji el-Imam of Melbourne (as of 2005 he was, apparently, general secretary of the Board of Imams of Victoria) is one such about which one doesn't know if he's sincere, or just ultra-clever, when for example he says he didn't know that jihad camps run by the extremist Indonesian political movement, Ahlus Sunnah wal Jammah, which is associated with terrorist group Laskar Jihad, were using his mosque (Preston Mosque) for recruitment and organization -- with Muslims from all parts of Australia, having Algerian, Somali, Lebanese, Palestinian and Philippine backgrounds being part of these jihad camps.
"Sheikh Fehmi said while mosque patrons ran many summer camps for children and adults, he was not aware of mosque patrons or members organising military camps."
"But Sheikh Fehmi said the existence of such camps, or the presence of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jammah could not be ruled out as the mosque had between 500 and 1000 members."
Nice wiping of the hands, Fehmi. Plausible deniability? Taqiyya? How are we Infidels supposed to know? Do a little "research on Google" then entrust our lives and the lives of our children to someone who seems to pass Google muster?
Sorry 3rd time my post above was incomplete. There are several known Islamists who are Indian in Sydney and in Canberra
I lost my friggin post and can't get it back up!
Haidon: I got your number means: 'I got your schtick, I know your game, I know what you're up to...'- that's all.
You KNOW that!
Again, you are not sincere. You keep playing the race-card when you KNOW that RACE is not an issue, that is annoying and I am increasingly irritated with your mental gymnastics!
You don't know what race I am, but you keep poking in the same direction. Let me tell you that in my (extended) family we have many colors and just about everything but Islam. Race is (almost) NEVER the issue!
Good luck with 'reforming' Islam! Obviously you are wasting your time here on JW/DW, shouldn't you spent your energy on the ummah and on the 'clerics' like Quaradwi? I'm sure they will be very open to your ideas!
About hatred:
let me tell you this: Muhammedans have a lot of words for us, like 'kufr, kafir, mushrikun, infidel' etc. The grand Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani in Iraq on his website under 'things najis' lists 'kafir' next to urine & feces, cadavers etc. and you come here telling us that we are 'racist' because we call a 'leb' a 'leb?' Kiwis & Aussies are ok, poms or kikes are ok, but the 'leb' makes me racist? Come off it!
Race is no issue, Haidon. Don't pretend it is, your credibility's gone south already.
And sympathy for the devil in a PC environment? You are hoping against hope, Haidon. Aussies may not be there just yet, but it won't be long before they have your number. The word is getting out...
Television
No its not easy. There are no truly moderate sheikh's in Australia. Fehmi Naji el-Imam is not sincere. I heard him speak in Auckland last year, same rubbish coming out of his mouth. Th enext day in Wellington he changed his tone because non-Muslim media and Jewish representative was there. So what's new...
Rehanna Ali is another example in this country. They love her so much here. I thought she was fantastic until she advised me that the four American contractors in Falujah who were burnt to death and paraded down the street deserved their punishment.
Real moderates? Here they are Sheikh Ahmed Mansour, Tawfi Hamid, Abdullahi Na'im, Fazlur Rahman. I can only walk in their footsteps. Of course for their troubles, they have been marginalised and essentially exiled in their native Muslim countries.
Sheikh
Still not getting you. The global fight against Islam is not about race I agree. What is appening in Eurpoe, no its not about race. But with Australians, it always about race.
I still don't understand why I am being dishonest. Just because I disagree with you? So anyone who holds a different view is an obsfucator, liar?
Your wrote
let me tell you this: Muhammedans have a lot of words for us, like 'kufr, kafir, mushrikun, infidel' etc. The grand Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani in Iraq on his website under 'things najis' lists 'kafir' next to urine & feces, cadavers etc. and you come here telling us that we are 'racist' because we call a 'leb' a 'leb?' Kiwis & Aussies are ok, poms or kikes are ok, but the 'leb' makes me racist? Come off it!
You know "leb" is a racist word for an Arab. Sistani is not an Australian. Don't blame all Lebanese and Arabs for Sistani.
I'll be very clear here, and not mince words. I support profiling and monitoring of Muslims. This is an unfortunate but necessary by product of the state of the world. I support scrutiny of Islam. I stood before the Constitutional and Foriegn Affairs Trade And Defence Select Committee and discussed the case of Pastor Daniel Scot, and the dangers of religious vilification laws. So please, overall criticism of Islam has nothing to do with race. But again, Auatralians have made it about race, all because they can't distinguish and don't try.
"I lost my friggin post and can't get it back up!"
Sheik,
not sure if this was your problem but if your login 'times out' you can use the 'back' typekey to 'copy' your post, then log in again and 'post' it.
Sheikh
You wrote
Aussies may not be there just yet, but it won't be long before they have your number. The word is getting out...
Again this sounds like a threat.
You wrote
Good luck with 'reforming' Islam! Obviously you are wasting your time here on JW/DW, shouldn't you spent your energy on the ummah and on the 'clerics' like Quaradwi? I'm sure they will be very open to your ideas!
I come to JW watch because I support Robert's work. I always have supported his work and have an enormous amount of respect for him. Why? Because he makes clear arguments that are devastatingly effective. He does so, without personal invective or judgment. To date, (myself included) no so called moderate Muslim has ever answered his challenge.
I have gone to the Middle East and spoken. I went back to Al Azhar where I converted to Islam in 2004 and stood face to face with At Tantawi, Grand Mufti and argued with him about abrogation and blind Muslim worship of Muhammad, I even spoke at the SHahid mosque in Khartoum in 2003 and argued against Sunnah, and shariah, arguing for complete Muslim accession to the Universal declration of Human Rights. I have defended in Sudanese courts of law refugee apostates from Islam...Again I am entrenched in this fight...
I have to interject here. I too am skeptical of Muslims. However, but I have seen Thomas Haidon in action so to speak. He downplays the threat against him. His wife Charlotte , a non-Muslim was grabbed two weeks ago and punched in the stomach walking home a day after Haiden debated a member of the Muslim brotherhood on Al Aribayya television and called the member scum on arab tv. That same day he appeared on a debate on NZ Public radio where he debated NZ's foremost Islamist Sheikh Mohammed Amir of the Muslim Association of Canterbury. I have never heard a Muslim so aware of the threat of Islamists. And most importantly, he does this within his community. Haidon you are an idiot for giving your address. haiden also was vocal against the Muslim reaction to the cartoons. He had the cartoons published himself. He also spoke out vocally for apostates like Ali Sina, Ibn Waraq and Abudl Rahman in Afghanistan I know that you do live in Wellington. What is something happened to that pretty little wife or yours Would be such a shame.
DavidCraig
Im not sure how you could possibly know this about my wife. That is not exactly what happened at all. I wont go into details, but there is no reason to get personal and drag my wife into this. Im particularly alarmed about your last remark about my wife by the way.
I'm not sure who you are. Do I know you?
"I'm not sure who you are. Do I know you?"
Yet another sock puppet of Mohammed?
By "6th. Pillar of Islam" do you mean the threat of Jihad?
In the sense that the 6th Pillar is a component of Islam, yes.
I define the 6th Pillar is as the threat of personal murder. In other words, if I'm an scholar, journalist, or politician and decide to venture forth and expose the murders of Abu Afak and Asma Marwan to a broad public, I must hesitate and mull whether I will be shot and killed, stabbed and maimed, or blown up upon turning my car key.
Or my wife. Or my children.
That is a powerful force to self-censor that is seldom discussed, even in here.
MO 6TH PILLARS MO HALAL HAMBURGER HELPER FILLERS MO KORAN SHILLERS MO
For example, virtually every critic of Islam resides in Secured Undisclosed Locationvillle.
But you don't see any "radical" muftis living anonymously; that's how they're able to retrieve those welfare checks from their mailboxes without threat of losing a hand.
Haidon:
You crack me up!
"Again this sounds like a threat"- I have explained it above:I got your number means: 'I got your schtick, I know your game, I know what you're up to...'- that's all...
Now I have deliberately used that same expression and just like the race-thing you keep making mental summersaults about it!
Let me spell it out for you: Aussies are becoming increasingly aware that Islam is a dangerous ideological cocktail, a kind of explosive cool aid that one better not swallows.
And you are simply insincere, especially when you write stuff like:
"...So let me ask you 3rd time, do you think it would have been acceptable for the Cronulla rioters to discern between Muslim and non-Muslim Arabs and just attack, and kill innocent Muslims. WOuld that have been acceptable to you?"
Haidon:
Aussies were stabbed. Innocent Aussies. Churches were shot up and burned down. By Muslims. That is what the slaves of Allah do. And you support them, Haidon. Deflecting away and making fake excuses just doesn't wash...
How do you see yourself? Like some sort of Oscar Schindler who joined the Nazi party in order to save a few Jews from the gas?
You really believe you can effect changes to this lunatic cult from the inside?
Sheikh
Maybe I am wrong about Australians. If they are waking up to the jihad threat, and its not pure racism, then I am wrong. But i highly doubt those Cronulla rioters (who were racist did you see the bloke in the "ethnic cleansing unit" t-shirt) studied JW or DW. Those rioters were racist pure and simple. I am not saying you are racist.
I know innocent Aussie were stabbed. The Muslim response was sickening, and disproportionate (I have acknowledged that many times above). You are not wrong.
You wrote
How do you see yourself? Like some sort of Oscar Schindler who joined the Nazi party in order to save a few Jews from the gas?
You really believe you can effect changes to this lunatic cult from the inside?
Most Muslims are not "Nazis" or "Muzis". They are most good people. I know a good number of Muslims who condemn jihad, and love being in NZ. They dont desire an Islamic state. In fact many come here escaping the Islamic state.
Sure, I think I can make a difference. You have every right to think I am stupid and naive. But I will remain doing what I can (which probably isnt much). There is no question that I am doing some good things. Why should I stop (other than because of wankers like Dave Craig who make subtle threats about my wife?)
Sheikh
Again clarifying I would never support the animals who went after Autralians post Cronualla. Just because I am Muslim, I support them? Give me a &*&&* break! I speak out against these animals every day!
Good luck, Haidon.
Why anyone would choose an organized religion project is beyond me. You'll always be butting heads with inflexible and dangerous dogmatists who can point to the books.
Okay Haidon, I take your word for it.
Back to the beginning: Why did you become so protective playing the race-card above when I pointed to the 'Leb-ball-player?'
My statement was simply that El Masri lied when he said "Islam is all about peace"- and that is what I object to. He KNOWS what we all know, that 'something is wrong' with Islam, but he shamelessly puts lipstick on it when he gets a chance to be on national TV, dutifully doing da'awa...
I don't think David Craig made a subtle threat against your wife, he wrote mostly good stuff about you.
Again I'm puzzled: I thought because your wife is Muslim you became Muslim, somehow I had that impression. Irrelevant. Anyhow: Calling members of the muslim brotherhood scum on Arab TV! Good on you, I certainly hope you live to a hundred! I'm impressed!
Be safe. I hope one day I'll be able to visit NZ and perhaps, if you like, we can have a yarn...
I hope one day I'll be able to visit NZ...
Do it fast, Sheik, before the Moslems take over and implement Sharia. Remember, they're real Liberal down there so the skids are well greased.
Sheikyer'mani:Your last post:-
"Back to the beginning: Why did you become so protective playing the race-card above when I pointed to the 'Leb-ball-player?'
My statement was simply that El Masri lied when he said "Islam is all about peace"- and that is what I object to. He KNOWS what we all know, that 'something is wrong' with Islam, but he shamelessly puts lipstick on it when he gets a chance to be on national TV, dutifully doing da'awa...
I don't think David Craig made a subtle threat against your wife, he wrote mostly good stuff about you. "
* * * * * * * *
I agree with the above. I also got this impression.
Also I must confess I didn't know that "Leb" had such nasty connotations.I just thought it was more of an abbreviation. (which it is really,,,in spelling.)
Haidon,,just perhaps were you possibly a bit racist towards us Aussie's? It could easily be interpreted that way.You lumped us all in the same bag.
Also it is easy to see why Aussies are wary of islam as was mentioned before - Bali is a good example and I was in the US on 9/11 and of course this changed my thinking in a BIG way.
If you can make a difference,,,good for you!
I wonder,,,,,
Haidon wrote:
"The Aussies, one of the most tolerant country on earth? Just ask an aborigine whether he/she thinks so."
A few years back I travelled with a group of NT aboriginals across Europe and one night on the highway in the back of a bus I asked the old man what he thought about it.
He said it was good that he had seen it, but he "preferred their own whitefellas back home, at least they were sticking to their word where he came from. Not all big talk and lieing to the people."
Haidon wrote:
"I don't identify as part of the Ummah. I am an American and a New Zealander."
American Muslim, utterly shocked by the idiocy of the unorganized riffraff in Cronulla, but this will change soon, we´ve got Thomas? Haidon?
downunder.
(next step: intimidating with fear does not work anymore, actually creates backlash, so then get our thinkers? out, to talk the infidels under the carpet)
hmm, does not work??, infidels not stupid enough?, got not enough thinkers?
Haidon, I read the whole threat ( which seems hijacked by your particular discussion), its stupid, without sense, carries no logik, and seems fast shooting from the hip with squalls of highly educated seeming argumentation. You are a muslim!, and you do this to disrupt an otherwise reasonable discussion.
welcome to the club,we´ve seen others before you.
Are you sure you published your own address up there?, yes or no doen not matter: utterly stupid non-working wishful sensationalism which is actually brainless!!
Haidon, from your previous post to me, you persist in dismissing the criminal riffraff youth among Muslims as not having anything to do with Jihad. I agree they are largely common criminals. I also agree that probably most of them don't have a specific consciousness of waging a Jihad. But I maintain they do have that vague sense of superiority of being Muslim and a swaggering braggadacio based on that which informs and inspires their criminal behavior. And the hate-mongering and jihad-mongering clerics and other Muslims are using them as a large amorphous social mass of disaffected youth who can either, through their mere criminal behavior without any specific jihadist training, sow fear and discord into the Dar-al-Harb, or can serve as a potential recruitment mass for more formal underground jihadist activities.
As the journalist Abigail R. Esman explained about the Dutch situation, which I suspect applies to any Western country where there is Muslim immigration as well as an increasing population of Muslim youths born and raised in the inclosed, festering, self-ghettoized Muslim enclaves:
"there is no single cause [to Islamist radicalization]. It's more a kind of intermingling of various potent poisons in a single cauldron...
"So how are they radicalized? You have a combination of adolescent rebellion and adolescent rage, you have children and teenagers who are growing up in violent homes, in a culture where what they learn is that the way to solve problems or exert your will or express your needs is through violence, not words. Add to that radical imams in local mosques that are often funded by the Saudis, radical Islamicist propaganda that circulates in various Islamic "Sunday schools," satellite dishes feeding propaganda from the Arab world into their homes -- and these shows are turned on all day most days, especially in homes where the parents have not yet learned to speak or understand Dutch."
"And then you have the Internet, and web fora, and misinformation, and the kinds of elements that can contribute to any sort of immersion in a trend, a cult, a way of life. But unlike dressing Punk or Gothic, becoming a radicalized Muslim overtakes your entire way of life: you are reading the Koran and listening to your radical peers and hearing the words of your heroes, you are mentored. And every step into that world leads to another, further and further in."
The angry Muslim youth who do not end up becoming actual mujahideen (whether merely driving a getaway car, or helping with tactical maneuvers, or actually carrying an explosive backpack) will tend to become your common criminals -- but make no mistake, their common criminality is different from that of other socio-cultural groups, because
their criminality is, in their minds, imbued with a vague sense of Muslim superiority -- and in the minds of the multitudes of Muslim hate-mongers and jihad-mongers, it is merely one part of the larger Jihad: to sow discord and fear in the heart of the Infidel lands, one small part in an overall strategy to break down the structure of the Dar-al-Harb.
haidon haidon haidon, nothing but hot air from another mis-informed muslim from a country far far away. What religion would sanction hate filled books inciting violence? ISLAM!
Gramfan,
"It amazes me how "african americans" become muslims when more likely than not it was arabs who sold their ancestors as slaves in the first place!"
This is a brilliant point. Perhaps this in itself should be the subject of another pamphlet to be distributed in those areas where it would do most good. There are probably many African-Americans who are completely unaware of Islam's role in the slave trade. Actually, come to think of it, there are probably many white Americans who are unaware of it.
CosmicAvenger I post here quite frquently, and generally agree with Robert and Hugh.
Sheikh
I think El-Masri is a hell of a league player, and titally non-offensive that is why I defended him. But I was perhaps over the top..
My wife is non-Muslim and very critical of muslims. She is also a supporter of Robert. She has no interest in converting to Islam. But she does respect my belief.
NZ is a great place. You are most welcome here and you will find it amazing. It would be great to have a yarn.
Cheers
TH
DaveCraig... I still think you are a dick for that last remark about my wife.
Haidon
Seriously, why did you have to post your address? Who in his right mind does that?
Not my brightest move. I have been working on a paper for 52 hours straight with practically no sleep (already two days past my deadline). Posting here has been a good diversion, but again that was not a bright move. I'll be fine...
Xerxes:
Thanks for the comment. I have been thinking about this for a long, long time!
Thankfully I have found a place to express this point of view.
I didn't actually know about this aspect of slavery till 1993 when an American academic told me. I was gobsmacked!
Adding to this problem many korans are distributed in US, UK and Australian prisons.Makes one ill really!
Haidon,
What does your Prophet Mohammed look like when you have stipped him of his pedophilia, sexual dysfunctions, murderous paranoia, religious intolerance, military supremacism, willful hatred of and twisting of Judaeo-Christian texts, and eschatological fanaticism? Is there anything left but a marcid skeleton?
Television:
I am guessing he looks like one of the Danish cartoons!! Or worse!
Kia ora Sofia
Thank you. I feel no need to formally change my name. I have a Muslim name as well, but i rarely use it. I am not Arab, and am not ashamed of my heritage of family name.
My children will be raised in the faith of their mother Angilcan-Christian. If at some stage later in life they express an interest in Islam, they will learn Islam through me, and not formal Islamic education (indoctrination). I will never force Islam on my children.
My conversion to Islam and reasons constitute a very long story Sofia...
Cheers
TH
Thomas - be careful when you label us Aussie's "racist"
The NZ Maoris were fought to a standstill - that's why you Kiwi's have a treaty. Still doesn't make it right, nor can you compare it to the Aussie situation.
We have a "reverse" racism here - that yes, confuses both Race and Religion - and yes many Cronulla idiots did just that.
But like the Sheik says - they are starting to learn the difference (I hope)
Thomas - I also suggest you read an article by Tim Priest in Quadrant Magazine about Lebanese crime in Sydney.
How does one identify a Muslim by looking at them?
Visualize Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens) or any Euro convert to Islam? Visualize the President and VP of Sudan, or any Sudanese, Visualize an Egyptian Muslim or a Copt, Visualize a Marionite and distinguish from a Druze. Blue Eyed fair haired muslims exists in great numbers in the mid east and even Iraq, as do black as coal Muslims or the mixed breed Muslim whom is the original Arab.
How about them Texas converts to Islam, red neck Muslims.
"My conversion to Islam and reasons constitute a very long story Sofia..."
So beautiful...so touching...so da'wa...
Haidon - 'these actions happen from within the Lebanises Christian communities as well.'
Really? Can you provide some examples?
Australian teenage girls were subjected to hours of sexual degradation during the Sydney gang rapes, told that they were 'sluts' and 'Aussie pigs'. The victims were told they were about to be 'f---ed Leb style'. The scum were all Muslims, I have never heard of any girl being spat on, threatened and cursed out by Lebenese Christians, much less gang raped.
Pakistani Muslim rapist MSK and his brothers, aided by their father (who has been charged with perjury) committed attacks on Australian girls as young as 13 because 'they had no right to say "no"'. Since their faces were not covered and they were not wearing headscarves: "I'm not doing anything wrong".
The number of rapes committed by Muslim men worldwide against western women in the last decade is so incredibly high that it cannot be due to anything other than culturally influenced behaviour. In Norway, 80% of rape victims are Norwegian women, 2 out of 3 rapists are Muslim immigrants. Check it out.
Here are a few quotes from Muslim 'spokesman' Keysar Trad:
* ‘The criminal dregs of white society colonised this country, and now, they only take the select choice of other societies, and the descendants of these criminal dregs tell us that they are better than us’.
* ‘ …from the Muslim viewpoint, our ideology is the best salvation for the people of Australia ... Yes, we are a threat to the culture of drunkenness, paedophilia ...’
* ‘They do not film a fat Australian woman in tight bicycle shorts, or tight pants, or an Australian drunk, or a nun, or an Australian welfare cheat. NO, they show a Muslim woman wearing a Hijab ... it would be okay if this same woman walked around in bicycle shorts, with her body vulgarly bulging out to the point of regurgitation.’
* 'In a way, they feel safe because of the quantity of water which surrounds this country, so they feel fortified behind this great body, it gives them a feeling of security. But the reality is, the land belongs to God, not to them, and if those foreigners ... are not permitted to enter as migrants, they will come as settlers, in numbers so large that they will not be able to process them, hold them, or stop them. What will they do then?’
This piece of garbage is a 'spokesman' for the Muslim community. Can you provide any reason why Australians should welcome more of these ignorant ingrates? This moron lives on Social Security provided by Australian taxpayers, like many of his followers.
'Where is your evidence that these acts, were committed because these "Muslims" were following Qur'an and Sunnah?'
'Evidence'? - the men on trial here right now for planning terrorist actions, the gang rapists, the creeps producing hate literature and the creeps who read it and believe it are all Muslims. They say they are Muslims, many are imans and sheiks, supposedly providing moral guidelines to the Islamic community. What more evidence do we need but the words that come from their own mouths? Is there some reason why we should disbelieve them? If you wish to believe that they are not 'true Muslims', thats your privilege.
I'm sure there are Muslims who are not violently inclined, and who do not hate us, but who cares? Will they have any impact on the majority? I think not. No country in its right mind would willingly import more Islamic troublemakers. Have you been to Europe and seen the havoc wrought there by Muslim immigrants? I'm guessing not.
You say you are a convert - I guess I dont have anything further to say to a person who would willingly become a follower of Mohammed.
"You say you are a convert - I guess I dont have anything further to say to a person who would willingly become a follower of Mohammed."
Exactly right.
This taqiyya spouting, da'wa merchant Haidon is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
He may have some of the more gullible here fooled by his lies but most of us see through his tricks.
I keep coming back to Haidon because he fascinates me, like a car wreck on the side of the road, or some strange species of amphibian with vivid, unnatural colors. He wrote earlier that "At least when I state my real name, people can do a bit of research to see if I am another "taqiyya spouting" Muslim."
Two things wrong with that statement:
1) it takes more than a "bit" of research to determine if an ostensibly moderate Muslim is practicing taqiyya
2) he neglected to tell us (but only mentioned late in the game almost parenthetically to sofia) that "I have a Muslim name as well, but i rarely use it."
Now, how are we supposed to do adequate research on Thomas Haidon if we don't know his other, Muslim name?
Well, after a bit of research, I found that his Muslim name is "Hamza Mohammed". However, this is not very helpful: an initial 10-minute Google search yielded scores of "Hamza Mohammeds" -- among which were a cricket player in Trinidad, an artist born in Sudan in 1966, and a soccer player from Ghana, in addition to a whole slew of "Hamza Mohammeds" mentioned in links to the usual abstruse jungle of alphabet-soup Muslim organizations and their complex networks of business and political and cultural associations (any number of which, if pursued doggedly enough, would yield connections with terrorist organizations).
P.S.: Thomas Haidon's Muslim name indicates that he respects Prophet Mohammed highly (if he doesn't actually revere him) -- which would render Thomas Haidon either malevolent, grievously naive, or psychotic. None of these possibilities augur well for an ally to our cause.
I know this book business makes Australia look a bit stupid, but I wish the non-Australians could have read the Sydney newspapers. They were going nuts about this, and there were many published letters denouncing the judge and the whole ethos behind the ruling. Please also note that the central government is stepping in to sort this mess out.
We have not taken leave of our sences down under - not completely, not yet.
Haidon,
I'm a working Aussie guy and the truth would frighten you. The racism towards Asians is slight, my wife is Asian and in 5 years in Sydney she has never been insulted. I repeat - NEVER. I live in an area with heaps of Asians. There is no racial tension. Some of the biggest Muslim haters I have met have been Christian Arabs, and their hate is based on a thousand horror stories from their native lands, and their relief and pleasure about no longer being under a Muslim government. Your view of a Sydney where poor Muslims stand shoulder to shoulder with Asians, Aborigines, Christian Arabs, etc. against white racism is pure fantasy. The Asians I speak to would rather have Aussie neighbours than Muslim neighbours any time. The anti-social and arrogant propensities of your bellicose community are well known to all.
Maybe the Muslim thugs that mug and rampage around Sydney are not "good" Muslims - they don't pray 5 times a day, and they might eat a bit of pork and have a beer every now and again (I'm sure Osama Bin Laden would berate them too) yet unfortunately they do have a sense of their "superiority" and Islamist aggression runs strong within them. They still have the Muslim culture and upbringing. But hey, are they so different to the Muslim rioters in France and the UK? I think not - it's a global problem.
You pretend to be so disconnected from your co-religionist rabble-rousers, yet you play the same mind games. If Muslims have problems, if Muslims are disliked, then it is always the fault of Westerners - never that of the Muslim community itself. Yours is a culture of blame.